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In the article it says Islam means "submission" it actually means "Faith" as in "Faith to Allah." Or "Faith to the betterment of mankind"
The meaning of Islam is NOT faith. Some people say it means submission, some people say it means "peace." Many claim, and im pretty confident it's true, that "Islam" is derived from the word "Salam" which means "peace." The word "aslam" which to me sounds like the verb form of Islam is usually translated as "submit." Perhaps it comes from "Salam" and literally means "pacify", which may have over time, been taken to mean "submit"? That seems to make sense. Since Islam is probably the noun form of "aslam", it seems to make sense either way.
2005-07-20
Many claim that "Islam" is derived from the word "salam", but it is only a claim. The word "islam" means "istislaam" and comes from the root word "aslama", spelt from left to right, the transliteration of the arabic letters are as follows: alif, seen, lam, meem; vs. "salama" which is: seen, lam, meem (notice 4 letters vs. 3). These are two completely different words (verbs). Shaykh Ibn Katheer (d.774H) – rahimahullaah – a great Islamic scholar, one of the best exegesists of the Qur'an, said: “And ‘ibaadah (worship) is: obedience to Allaah by acting upon what He commands and abandoning what He forbids; and this is the reality and essence of Islaam. And the meaning of Islaam is: istislaam (submission and surrender) to Allaah – the Most High – along with the utmost compliance, humility and submissiveness to Him." It does not mean "peace". Peace is obtained as a consequence of submitting oneself to the will (legislated laws) of Allah, by willfully desiring to obey Him in His obligations and doing so and staying away from His prohibitions, further supplemented by optional but recommended acts of worship to earn His pleasure. Through this one attains, peace of the heart (i.e. contentment), peace of mind, peace within the society practicing Islam openly and completely, etc. I hope this helps clarify some things.
"spelt from left to right, the transliteration of the arabic letters are as follows: alif, seen, lam, meem; vs. "salama" which is: seen, lam, meem (notice 4 letters vs. 3). These are two completely different words (verbs)." That argument does not seem to hold up. The arabic word "kariha" is spelled ka, ra, ha; vs. ikraha, spelled alif, ka, ra, ha. But they are both different forms of the same verb: to hate. This seems to be true for almost all verbs.
A new editor has arrived, and has split the Tenets of Islam into two sections, Sunni and Shi'a, and vastly elaborated the Shi'a section. It is now longer than the Sunni section. It seems to me that this disturbs the flow of the article (introducing sectarian divisions in advance of the sectarian section) and unduly amplifies the distinction between Sunni and Shi'a. There is so much that these sects have in common. I'm not sure I want to revert -- the earlier version, with its presentation of the Sunni list and a footnote for the Shi'a seems, to slight the Shi'a, which may have upset the new editor -- but I don't have time to rewrite today.
Could someone else tackle it? I'm thinking that we need to avoid the clash of lists and just identify, informally, the beliefs that all Muslims (Sunni, Shi'a, Ibadi) hold in common. The Qur'an, Muhammad, the Hajj ... what else? Zora 01:19, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
These topics are covered in NPOV and are part of the article. The usual suspects are probably going to start their usual attempt at squashing the information.Nevertheless the info belongs here.-- Aldowi 13:49, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed the slavery section (again -- we have some very determined POV warriors here) and added a link to Slavery in the "see also" section. Surely this should be a sufficient pointer to the info there. Zora 18:36, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OO that was very logical , quoting CHRISTIAN ACTION for an article on Islam . U know christians were the ones who captured & marketed those slaves to America , so U should first add this to Christianity page . How pathetic..some guys come here only to publicitise what they read on their hate filled evanglist sites . And U know whats even funnier , all the facts about verses in bible about slavery havebeen removed from the slavery page . And some phobic psychos R insistent to add slavery in main Islam page , just b/c their teachers told them that slavery is a core belief in Islam . Feel free to PM me if U want to Slavery in Christianity page . I have loads of verses from OT & NT for that matter . Peace Farhansher 20:55, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
U and your published historian & your Christian action site know nothing about what Islam says about Slavery . Besides U know nothing what relevent is . What the Christian action people want .. well .. one can easily figure out by watching their logo ..africa bible..cross .. & a sword . Nice
BTW this is english page .. right ?? Farhansher 05:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
U guys have nerves talking about what Quran says , when all U read is one-forth of a verse . For your benifit I've started a new article , Islam and Slavery . Farhansher 05:39, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I have a request for an admin change under protection to the page. The link "Slavery Under Islam" should probably link to the protected page Islam_and_slavery since linking to the unprotected Slavery page just seems to be unnecessarily spreading the fight there. It's also just the most logical place for it to link to. -- Camipco 7 July 2005 06:43 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources in the Qu'ran and the hadiths mentioning slavery. You can start with a search on the word slave. Muhammad had slaves, and historical Islamic culture has always been characterized by the ownership and trading of slaves. The atrocities and evil commited in Islamic culture through slavery is so horific that most people would not have the stomach for it.
-- Aldowi 12:18, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Try improving your reading/surfing habits . Hope that helps ,
Farhansher 21:26, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Aldowi, this is the Islam section of Wikipedia. This has no need for your pointless vandalism and anti-Islamic POV. In any case, all of the so-called information you have linked to is completely irrelevant to your point. You can not expect viewers to believe your lies simply because you have linked to christian missionary sites. SLAVERY, if any, was in NO way was as severe in Islam as it was in christianity and that is proven to the mid 19th century; don't even try to dispute that.
One common christian misconception about Islam is the notion that it gives sanction to slavery. In fact, the very initial Makkan surahs appealed to the Muslims to liberate as many slaves as they could. The Prophet (pbuh)also directed the Muslims to raise the standard of living of the slaves and bring it equal to their own standard. So, don't try to shove any of your propaganda in to this article as the Qur'an and the Hadith are both against slavery.
Before you try to present your anti-Islamic views and completely useless links, go look at other religions such as christianity which have actively performed slavery because ISLAM WAS COMPLETELY AGAINST IT. And in any case, this is the ISLAM section of wikipedia and this, like all other religion sections, is not the place to put this material. Why the heck do you anti-Islamic idiots have problems with realizing the basic facts? Or quite clearly it is just a sad attempt to try and make your own troublesome religion look "good". -- Anonymous editor 20:14, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Aldowi, how ignorant are you? NOT once in the Qur'an is slavery mentioned in the negative way that you described it and neither is it sanctioned. Here are a few examples:
So, I think frankly that you have trouble reading or maybe you are just too biased towards Islam in the first place. In any case, you have NO PROOF to support your statement that Islam sanctions slavery. Secondly, you said you have an "open mind". How can you have an open mind when clearly you are nothing but an anti-Islamic POV extremist who tries to use the fact that the word "slave" occurs in the Quran as proof that Islam allows "atrocities" against slaves! And it does't matter what you have written on the topic of Islam and what studies you have done if you were biased against the religion in the first place. You are nothing but close-minded and you think that by coining phrases like "primitive superstition" and calling everyone who proves you wrong an "Islamic zealot" you can get a point across.
This is an another low for anti-Islamic bigots and I wouldn't be surprised that you are just another right-wing christian trying to give a bad name to Islam simply because you need a scapegoat for the problems with your own religion. I know all about this because I was taught to try and degrade Islam (in particular) by my church before I converted to Islam. Why do you and other bigots insist on bringing your pointless vandalism to all Islam-related articles?
Lastly, as both muslim and non-muslim editors have stated, this section is about the religion of Islam, not slavery. Religions do NOT need a dedicated "slavery" section. So stop your vandalism and do research on Islam that isn't simply gathered propaganda from anti-Islamic sites. -- Anonymous editor 20:03, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
Dear Colleagues, Hello. I have been watching this article for some time, and I am sad that there is prevailing a thorny problem at the moment about slavery in Islam. Aldowi, since I am a sheltered Christian from Arizona, I don't know anything about the teachings of the Koran, and I would appreciate seeing the specific verses that most quintessentially represent the positive attitude of the Koran toward slavery. I would be interested in passages equivalent to the Mosaic law sections dealing with slaves that give tacit permission in the Old Testament. Please give the passages along with their references. I will let the Muslims here verifiy for me that your selections are correct. Thanks. Also, may I know exactly what you would like to be sure the article says? Tom Haws 20:18, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 05:57, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
-- Urchid 11:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I you're going to mention it prominently here, you might as well mention it in every article about every other culture and religion (including Christianity). Pointing Islam out specifically for its slavery is biased against Muslims.
Xunflash
18:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Something about Islam descending from a pagan moon cult should be included here.
Yes it should be mentioned, since it is an accurate historical fact but there are a bunch of anti-freedom of speech Islamic supporters continuously monitoring this page who do nothing but tear down any changes they do not want presented to the world.-- 68.130.206.88 12:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No, I don't think it should. It's a shoddy theory, one that has been disproven over and over again by Muslims and non-Muslim historians. Go see Talk:Allah on that, its not worth mentioning.
I have heard a lot about Christianity descending from worshipers of Sun godess Eshtre ( from where Easter originated ), & some others that I cant remember . Should that be included in Christianity too . And what about Jews worshiping the Cow , when Moses went to Mount Sinai . Farhansher 08:14, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Those "some" who believe Islam is (or descended from) a moon cult are largely Christian polemicists and have a venerable tradition; in the earliest such literature one finds not only the moon cult accusation, but allegations of worshipping the head of Aphrodite in the form of a stone and summoning up demons by night. (Not to mention the standard accusation, beginning (IIRC) with St. John Damascene and presented more recently in Hilaire Belloc's writings, that Islam is a Christian heresy, no better than warmed-over Arianism.) So much for that.
A historian of religion without any axe to grind would readily acknowledge that Islam incorporated elements from Jahiliyyah paganism (which was not, note, exclusively or even primarily a moon cult), along with the greater influences of Judaism and Christianity. Even the 8th-century Muslim scholar Ibn al-Kalbi readily acknowledges that the hajj and certain associated practices, notably the circumambulation of the Kaaba, were adopted from the pagan Arabs—though he avers that they, in turn, got it from Abraham. I'm vaguely aware of later Islamic literature that addresses the topic, but can't recall specifics.
The same historian would not fail to acknowledge how much of Islamic belief, notably its strict monotheism, was formed in direct opposition to that same paganism. He would also leave off writing something about it here until he had written the in-depth explanation in the article on the history of Islam. — Charles P. (Mirv) 2 July 2005 01:35 (UTC)
Islam has no relationship with the ancient Semite moon cults. The Qur'an itself describes the moon as a thing created by God. There is room for comments on the Moon cult business, this is after all an encyclopedia but those references are foot-note material not main entry. Kiwimac
Plus I get the feeling he's a fan of Mystery Science Theatre 3000, which is problematic in and of itself. BrandonYusufToropov 12:55, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The source being in Arabic is not the problem. The quote's accuracy, reliability, and relevance is. In reality, the 6 million a year figure is given by a guest on an al-Jazeera talk show, one Ahmad Al-Qataani of Libya. He gives no sources for this figure, as far as I can see, and, from his alarmist tone ("667 Muslims a minute!") I suspect him of simply trying to drum up funding for his own missionary efforts. The quote thus has no credibility. Find an almanac or some other reasonably trustworthy source. - Mustafaa 23:26, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Guys there is no point in this dialogue . These people ( with multiple IDs ) r all brain slaves of Sina & Spencer , both liers hypocrites . Their sites R a new version of Missionary sites, with the added charm of " I was a muslim once ". I dont know if U have figured out uptli now , but for me its as clear as 0 & 1 . There sentences , logics , choice of vocab , phrases , R a perfect match of the brain slaves of these 2 as**oles . If U dont believe me , checkout their site . They arnt here to improve WP . They R here to give links to their site to increase their hitrate , & to defame Islam . Hope that helps . Farhansher 05:21, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Just a question: shouldn't continuing demographic trends be added to this? Such as the below info:
"The world population is growing at about 1.10% per year, but the percentage of Muslim population is increasing by 1.4% per year due to both converts and growth rates. It has been stated by many that statistics show that within the next century Islam will outgrow Christianity and become the largest religion in the world."
The reason is simply because it indicates the growth of the religion and I believe should be added to a "Future of Islam" section. I have seen this material on several NPOV sites and various statistics and am willing to cite my sources if needed.
So what do you think? -- Anonymous editor 06:36, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
There appears to be an extreme intolerance of alternate views on this page being perpetuated by a small clique of editors who have been attempting to monopolize all edits on this page. Wikipedia is a colloberative endeavor not a tug of war between zealots. IF you have any questions on Wikipedia's NPOV policy go here. WIKIPEDIA NEUTRALITY POLICY . Thank you for your cooperation.-- Urchid 00:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, there is no monopolization. You can not simply understand that the material that you want to add is illegitimate and is no more then POV. Regardless, this is the ISLAM article, not the conversion article. I don't see other religions with info like this on their section. Perhaps you should get factual statements rather than put anti-Islamic views onto the religion section. By the way, if we were to mention something along those lines, we would have to mention the many millions more who convert/have converted TO Islam (like me). I know the truth hurts you.
You are zealous about your opinion perhaps you should be more tolerant and stop your persistent vandalism. Thanks.-- Anonymous editor 02:14, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
Anyone with a remote knowledge of the atrocities being constantly carried out by Muslims in the world today must speak out. These horrible attacks on truth by Muslims who would hide it are not acceptable. Muslims murdered 2,000 on September 11, 2001. Islam is responsible for the heartless murder of journalist Daniel Pearl. The term "Islamic extremist" should not be used because all Muslims are a threat. Even Islamic clergy are now encouraging and promoting murder of "infidels". Islam is an evil religion that enslaves women, turns men into bloodthirsty monsters, and calls for the murder of those not stuck in its stinking, rotting quagmire. Muslims are even now trying to infiltrate the U.S. bringing their foul, scum of a religion here. There is no love in Islam, only hate, a vicious murderous hatred. The crusades were entirely necassary. If the Christians had not driven out the Moors, Europe might today be the living hell that the Middle East is now. There is not a shred of honor, not one iota, in Islam. It would have been better if Mohammed had never been born. Osama Bin Laden is one of his monsters, blood-thirsty and murderous who masterminded the NYC mass murders on 9/11 nearly 4 years ago. Islam is no religion of "peace", whatever people like Cassius Clay may call it. Muslims are a lost people, floundering in the darkness, following a distant, unloving god, and trying to get to Heaven by murdering Christians and Jews. Jesus came into the world to redeem mankind; to save us from our sins. Muslims' only hope for happiness, a changed heart, and eternal life is to give their lives over to the one who truly loves them, Jesus Christ and to make him their savior and Lord. Therein lies true freedom. 4.158.211.175 01:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You should probably get a blog. This sort of "truth" is better expressed in that medium than in an encyclopaedia. Grace Note 01:25, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I feel tempted to get rid of above user's editorial comments, but it is too humorous to bear. Perhaps a section on the distortion, or myths of Islam is prudent (for one, in response to the op ed--there is no such thing as a peaceful Abrahamic religion. Each has nuances of peace, harmony and love, and each has its nuaces of hatred, dispair and violence.) One could figure out where the misinformation is coming from and that would be a truly powerful addition to this article. Well, my opinion at least.
User 4.158.211.175, a possible sockpuppet of Urchid, is nothing more than a bigot. It is not uncommon to hear people like him commit racism against muslims, because frankly they fear so much that christianity is losing against Islam in terms of conversions and growth. It is not uncommon to hear stuff like this being taught in christian extremist churches, I know because I was once evangelical. Truly shows how misinformed they are when they say that 'muslims follow an unloving god', when it is the same God that christians worship. LOL.Perhaps this user should also look through history and see that if it was not for Islam, Europe would have never made it out of the dark ages and into the renaissance that is the foundation of modern western civilization.
How about you mention the numerious atrocities that christianity committed with other religions and still does to this day? How about the hundreds of thousands of civilian Muslims and JEWS slaughtered ruthlessly during the crusades? Or how about how the United States bombing muslims in Lebanon on false grounds? This is bound to get retaliation, my friend, and although I do not agree with extremism, 9/11 was bound to happen.
Maybe you should also mention how christian evangelization led to the death of thousands of africans or how evangelicals were smuggling orphan children out of Indonesia after the tsunami in order to convert them?
Frankly I don't find it necessary to debate about this anymore right now because clearly you are nothing more than a bigot and and it is your own POV and attempt at recruiting more zealous christians for your pathetic cause. It goes against everything that WIKIPEDIA stands for. And yes, you can believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is "lord and savior", but you and I both know that is nothing more than a dying fad and people with half a brain are leaving christianity as we speak.
Praise be to Allah that I converted to Islam. It is only through him that we wake up and see the reality. -- Anonymous editor 03:09, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, your agreement with that 'general premise' truly shows your credibility and true nature. Maybe since now that you seem so NPOV, we should listen to everything you say. (sarcasm ofcourse) -- Anonymous editor 03:18, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Gren, generally I agree with you and I was definitely counter-POVing not NPOVing in this case. I am saddened that it has come down to something like this. Truly wikipedia is no place for stuff like this.In response to urchid: Man, I am not what faith you are and I am still embrassed by YOUR behaviour. I suppose you are very tolerant? -- Anonymous editor 03:33, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
_ _ _
Okay first things first. THIS article is NOT a POV debate. It is not my POV that should go there and it is not yours. It is a factual article, one can NOT say their POV. Frankly, who cares what others think about Islam??? That doesn't change what Islam is, does it? Why can't you understand that?
Secondly, you are the one who called me intolerant simply because of my POV. see your message above. The fact that I responded to you by saying that "I suppose you are very tolerant?" is simply in response to your assertion.
You are not making anything better by claiming that those people on the streets of Pakistan were "zealots ranting about their little book". Is it wrong to respect one's religion? Would other religions not protest if their holy book was destroyed in such a manner?
Lastly, you are misinformed about Islam in accordance with the facts of Islam. In reality, do you really think that you can come close to factual information about Islam better a muslim who clearly knows the tenets of the religion? The fact of the matter is that one who clearly practices the faith is more likely to know the facts about it better than someone who doesn't. It is just like a communist is more likely to know communism better than a non-communist.
So remember that this is not a POV debate. It is a factual article. There is no reason for any POV in this article. It should be all factual statements. People's opinions about Islam do NOT change what Islam is. -- Anonymous editor 04:20, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
guys, an anonymous account cannot be a sockpuppet. sockpuppet are accounts used by people who have another, primary account. dab (ᛏ) 14:12, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
also, you should all try a chatroom. If you cannot discuss the article's wording in a civil, academic, neutral atmosphere, you shouldn't even be here.
dab
(ᛏ) 14:15, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
To AE: Why on Earth can't you be more civil! I have gone through a lot of this talk page and all throughout I see your stupid ranting! If somebody doesn't agree with you: "Yell, Yell, Yell, Shout, Shout, Shout, So And So is a bigot, So And So is intolerant, everybody should be tolerant of my ideas but I don't have to be tolerant of anybody else's!" I'm not user 4.158 but I do agree with him for the most part! I see no reason to be neutral about this topic when you can't be. Ratso 19:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
needless to say, the information in "Islam and slavery" was in the wrong article. After all, we don't have "Christianity and Islam" in the Christianity article, discussing all the good Christians who shipped slaves to America after outbidding their Islamic Arabic counterparts. The names of Muhammad's slaves should go to the Muhammad article. Islamic laws on slavery should go to the Sharia article. dab (ᛏ) 14:12, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wow, "jihadism", did you just make up that word off the top of your head? Totally shows how misinformed you are when you make up words faster than Foxnews. Clearly, when you write a section in an article where it does not belong and fill it with lies, you are going to get opposition. What exactly are your sources; do you know anything about Islam that is not gathered from right-wing american bigot sites?-- Anonymous editor 00:11, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
So, 12 million blacks were sold as slaves by islamic slave traders to christian slave traders? What does that tell you except that slave trading is apparently independent of religion, and that this factoid (if it is one) is at home neither in the Islam nor in the Christianity (or in both, with the same justification), but in the slavery article. I mean, really, how about "Islam and stupidity" (some muslims are stupid!) "Islam and roadkill" (muslims run over animals on the highway!) or "Islam and ugliness" (some muslims are ugly!). Factuality is one thing, notability is another (slave trade is notable), relevance is quite another thing (slave trade is not relevant to the ship article, in spite of slaves having been transported in ships). This is too obvious to even argue. We do not want either Islam-hyping editors here, nor Islam-bashing one. Unfortunately, we have both kinds now, only neutralizing each other by emission of a lot of unsavoury diatribes. dab (ᛏ) 08:37, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Looks like Anonymous editor is editing Farhansher 's text. A slip up? sock puppets?-- Urchid 23:00, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Lol, funny. I was only editing text because I assumed the message by Farhanser was intended for you. Obviously he doesn't mean me and I wanted to avoid confusion by others, thus I wrote 'to urchid:' by his message. Anyways sockpuppetry is your expertise, although you prefer to use non-users. -- Anonymous editor 23:44, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
His comment was clearly towards you because you are the only one misinformed enough to have made such false statements in the first place. It's sad to see that you take offence to the truth. Perhaps you should follow your own advice before judging others. Thanks. -- Anonymous editor 19:50, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
This throw into question all the assumptions demographics of Islam Today -- Urchid 00:27, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Okay so according to your "sources" christianity is growing in Africa. Why exactly does this belong in the ISLAM article??? The concern was never christianity growth in Africa, it was about a unreliable claim that muslims were converting to it. I can quote many sites that say Islam is growing in Africa and that would still be related to the ISLAM demographics section.
Why can't you understand how wikipedia works? If you want to enter this info of yours put it in a christianity-related article. The sources don't even mention Islam! Why should the Islam article incorporate info/propaganda about christianity growth???
Frankly, this Islam article isn't concerned with christianity is it. Btw, you seem rather persistent to enter anti-Islamic, pro-christian material for someone who says that they have no religion. Maybe what you really are is finally showing.-- Anonymous editor 00:41, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Why can't you understand that there is no need for POV on this article in the first place? This is not a debatable recent event, it is a factual article about Islam.
Why exactly would the growth of christianity be relevant in an Islam article? Why do you want to insert christianity info/propaganda into the Islam article? You can provide all the 'sources' you want but as long as it is NOT related to the article, why does it matter?
You are the only one here who is entering the most disputed material with stuff about christianity when your sources don't even mention Islam. Wikipedia is NOT a christian propaganda site. You seem stubborn on putting in christian material into an ISLAM article; go put christian material into the christianity article. Seriously, even you must realize something as simple as this???
By the way, I AM A MUSLIM. I know what Islam is because I practice it. It is you who has the 'fantasy image' and is being nothing more than a bigot. -- Anonymous editor 01:02, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Urchid, what you fail to understand is that the growth numbers you 'cited' from your sources have nothing to do with ISLAM whatsoever. What do christianity growth numbers have to do with Islam in the first place? If you want to put you 'source' and 'claim' in an appropriate article put it in the christianity article.
The only problem here is that you seem to have a problem understanding what this article is about. You are clearly the one who is 'frothing in the mouth' as you are over-stimulated at the idea that you can vandalize a perfectly legitimate article by inserting christian propaganda about christian growth. Truly anyone can realize that is unrelated to this article and does not belong here, why can't you?
The only problem here is your bigotry against Islam. The article tells the truth and you insist that your racist views and totally unrelated claims be added to this article. Every time the editors remove your vandalism you show them disrespect and claim that you are being censured and that the article is a destruction of truth. If you can't edit the ISLAM article fairly and without extreme anti-Islamic POV, go away because your propaganda is not needed here. -- Anonymous editor 19:23, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to include high and low estimates of adherence and growth. And I believe that adherents.com would be a good unbiased source. I quote "Contemporary figures for Islam are usually between 900 million and 1.4 billion, with 1 billion being a figure frequently given in comparative religion texts, probably because it's such a nice, round number. The largest and best known branches of Islam are Sunni and Shi'ite."
[2]
Tom Haws 15:11, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
AE, I guess I agree with you, but if you won't stop shouting, nobody will read what you say. Just let the cooler heads (like Mustafaa and Tom) quote the estimate ranges. The exact number, and the exact growth rate is unknown, live with it. Both Christianity and Islam are growing, because of population growth, and the numbers are extremely unreliable, because the countries with highest growth rate also have the worst level of organization (a.k.a. 3rd World). dab (ᛏ) 19:45, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Glad to see you agree with me, Dab. Surely anyone can see that urchid's claims have nothing to do with the article and clearly supposed christianity African statistics do not belong in an Islam article. The controversy was never over growth rates, it was about adding completely unrelated material about christianity. By the way I am not shouting I am clarifying what I mean and urchin can't seem to understand for some reason and enjoys making remarks against editors in general. Thanks for your input in this matter. -- Anonymous editor 20:03, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying this, Paul. I already knew what Dab was saying though. I wasn't trying to be rude but I apologize if the bolding/capitalization of my text was offensive to anyone. Thanks. -- Anonymous editor 03:04, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
So please stop putting that at the top of the article, Urchid. BrandonYusufToropov 12:10, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The dispute doesn't seem to be about specifics -- you aren't challenging anything that's there -- it's just that you want to include stuff that you believe reflects badly on Islam, even if it's not particularily germane to the article. I added a link to the Slavery article, in the See also section -- Islam and slavery is discussed there, as part of a discussion of slavery in general. How come you aren't insisting on adding the names of the slaves owned, if known, to every historical figure in Wikipedia? No, you're just interested in making the equation Islam = slavery. You're marking the article POV because it doesn't hew to your POV ... and that's wrong. Zora 12:36, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Agree with Zora. There may be a factuality dispute concerning conversion rates, but that is simply up to either side being able to present credible sources. afaik, no serious estimate has been censored. "I want to insert oblique potshots aimed at Islam in general" is not a content dispute, sorry. Nobody disputes slavery was common, both in Islamic and Christian society. If you must, insert a list of Muhammad's slaves in the Muhammad article (if the list is factual), but it is certainly not pertinent to this article. dab (ᛏ) 13:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous editor, talk about adding edits like that which were previously decided against for doing it. An article of this size and nature should not have arbitrary decisions made by one editor like you are doing and not expect them to be reverted. Discuss it here first and get input. I am not totally against it, I am rather apathetic towards the issue but you are a single editor among many so please discuss putting a "general links" section into the article and which sites it should contain. I am guessing that BrandonYusuf's, yours and Urchids opinion might not be the same in which links to put. gren 19:11, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely fine. I will keep the links at hand until people have voiced their opinions. TO EVERYONE: Should general, factual external links about Islam be added to the article, much like the other religion articles? Please voice your opinions as this is both: to help people find material that gives a better understanding of the religion, and also to add to the professionalism of Wikipedia by adding factual external links like other credible encyclopedias have. Similarly feel free to recommend factual links so that editors may review whether they should be added. Thanks. --
BrandonYusuf, Mustafaa, Zora, Yuber, Dab and Farhanser, you have all been major contributors to this article and your input in this matter would be greatly appreciated. Anonymous editor 20:09, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
I'll comment on the links issue. Someone else -- I forget who -- proposed the directories solution in response to my effort to clear out the links. Before I started pruning, there were dozens of links, to different sects, to different teachers, and more were being added each day. Anyone who wanted more publicity for his/her preferred version of Islam was adding a link. There didn't really seem to be any way to limit the links without provoking howls of protest at the discrimination. The suggestion to list only directories was received with a general sigh of relief. Having seen the alternative, I would argue vigorously that we keep to this policy for the Islam page. Links have been allowed to proliferate freely on the pages for the various sects/versions of Islam. Zora 20:02, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, factual, external links about Islam should be added to the article. Owing to the Mohammedan's willingness to follow the sunnah of Mohammed, we have an element of Taqiyya mixed with intolerance of anything that may expand upon the "sugar-coated" version of Islam that is being promoted here, exploiting the popularity of this site and using it as a one-eyed propaganda facility. I placed a link to this page as an INFORMATION SOURCE about Islam......... www.faithfreedom.org/links.htm .........so where did it go?
I've lost track of who did what, but the first para has been turned into an encomium of Islam as the source of art and science. I don't think that's NPOV, and it's certainly debatable that this is a distinguishing characteristic of Islam. Other religions have also contributed to the arts and sciences. I also removed a phrase re Islam being an Abrahamic faith. That categorization is Muslim -- I don't think I've ever heard an Jews or Christians use it. In fact, I still remember the first time I ran into it, in a National Geographic article on Abraham some years ago. It would certainly not be comprehensible to non-Muslims. Most Christians will refer to the Judeo-Christian tradition, and ignore Islam entirely. The first para sets the tone, and that tone should be NPOV. Zora 21:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yuber, it seems a little hostile to revert to the "Abrahamic religions" version while we're still discussing it. Zora 23:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Which I'll do right now. Zora 00:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Aha, it's done. OK. Zora 00:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Zora is both sympathetic and nice to Yuber, and he still reverts her. Unbelievable. FYI, Christianity is not an Abrahamatic religion. Christianity is a christian religion. -- Noitall 00:50, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Actually it was me who added the word "Abrahamic religions" here . The word was present in Christianity & Judaism's first para . So I thought it should be added here too . In Judaism, this word is present with a link to Islam page. Farhansher 04:22, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
of course you need the second part. Any monotheist would subscribe to "there is no god but God". To be a Muslim, you need the additional belief that Muhammad's testimony is authentic, just as to be a Christian, you need to believe that Jesus was sent by God (not necessarily that he is God, viz. Arianism, Unitarianism). Just saying la ilaha illa llahu says nothing about the status of the Quran, i.e. you may testify that, and still think the Quran is a surrealist poem, which would hardly make you a Muslim. 80.219.219.208 11:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have not yet edited on this article, but am preparing to do so. Of course, as a Christian, I want to have knowledge before inserting my POV. I believe that finding one or two sources on google and reading the Koran text as I think it should read and interpreting it the way I think it should be interpreted should be a good generalization for the entire Islamic world. But it does not really matter because, as User:Mustafaa argues, Muslims can believe anything or nothing at all, so anything I find on google is good and must be accurate and correct. Anyhow, don't you agree that I will soon be an Islamic expert?
Oh, by the way, that was not my opinion, but was User:Mustafaa's argument as to why he can interpret Christian texts and is really qualified with lots of expertise as to edit the Christian interpretation of Abraham. I disagreed and made the argument that I am respectful of other religions and that I am not really qualified to understand all the nuances of the religion to edit on Wiki. Anyhow, if Mustafaa's opinion is the right one, I will really enjoy doing some research and debating you all on what the text and interpretations of Islam mean. -- Noitall 02:12, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Can someone please explain to me what this discussion has to do with this article? This seems like a discussion concerning the Abraham article. I think this discussion should be moved there. Paul August ☎ 03:21, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Edip Yuksel has just discovered Wikipedia. He seems to be a disciple of Rashad Khalifa; he claims to represent the Quran Alone Muslims, who at this point seem to consist of him and one other gentleman. He is busily editing the Islam article to insert his name, as well as setting up a page for Quran Alone, and trying to link to it. I've removed the link, since I have no evidence that there are any other adherents of "Quran Alone" than these two new editors, and the page may have to be deleted. Zora 23:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Was there not a section called "Problems with Islam" in this article, which covered various issues, and has now been removed?
In the section "Schools (Branches}", in the paragraph beginning "Recently, with the rise of the Internet ..." the following passage occurs which needs to be rewritten, however I'm not sure what it is trying to say:
Paul August ☎ 08:19, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
Paul August, who hasn't been involved here previously, has been making a great many changes, most of which seem to be mere copyediting. In checking his edits, I found that I generally approved of them -- but felt that they didn't go far enough. I've been sucked into the skirmishing over sentences and sections, and haven't looked at the article as a whole for a while. Some of the prose seemed to me to rather substandard (which is frequently the case in often-edited articles). I ended up reorganizing the sects section and rephrasing a number of things that I felt were ... dubious.
I found that someone had inserted a large lump of Qur'an-only proselytizing, which I removed. I also found that someone had upped the percentage of Sunnis to 95% -- clearly a Sunni triumphalist.
There is one section that I would like to delete, but don't want to do it unilaterally. There is a whole section on liberal Islam that floats unmoored from the "sects" section. Though I would certainly be a liberal Muslim if I were a Muslim, it seems to me to be POV for the liberals to get their own section when other sects don't. OK to remove? Zora 09:00, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
An anon editor, with no other edits to his/her credit, changed a sentence re Christian nations at the time Islam arose not tolerating religions/sects other than the state religion, to "some" Christian nations. I removed the qualifier, as I can't think of a single tolerant Christian state before the Renaissance. All of them had state religions and periodically persecuted or expelled Jews, other Christian sects, etc. Even if a few tolerant states could be adduced, I'm not sure that this would require changing the qualifier to "some" -- I would say that it would be "most". Hmmm ... tolerant nations ... Poland, I think, and the Netherlands once they broke free of the Spanish. Europeans had to kill each other for centuries before they grudgingly accepted tolerance. Any other suggestions? Zora 12:03, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I made a few edits to this article a few hours ago. On my talk page ( here), Zora asked me to explain what I am doing on this page, so here I am ;-) My changes were as a result of reading the article and making copyedits and trying to improve the writing, along the way. It was not my intention to change the sense or meaning of any part of the article. if I have misunderstood some passage and inadvertently changed its intended meaning, then please accept my apologies. If anyone wants to discuss any of my edits, I'm more than happy to do so. Paul August ☎ 13:40, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
Why is color of Islam green ?
[Siyac] 14:19, Jun 28, 2005 (UTC)
Re-added to article as it evidently won't stand as its own article without the Wiki-Islamo-zeolots at once whitewashing it down to nothing.-- Urchid 2 July 2005 14:27 (UTC)
Urchid, please avoid personal remarks. Focus on the content instead. Anonymous editor, the same goes for you, even if you feel provoked.
Now, the issue of the extensive slavery section has been discussed above ( #New or old sections have been reinserted, #Islam and Slavery, and #slaves) and the general consensus seems to be that so much detail is out of place in this overview article, which after all has to cover 1400 years of Islamic history, doctrine, thought, and practice. The details belong in a separate article, which should be referenced and linked to from this page. — Charles P. (Mirv) 2 July 2005 15:17 (UTC)
Since there has been endless censorship by the Pro Islam people on the Islam series of articles , what would you people think of creating a new series of articles called ISLAM/UNCENSORED , MUHAMMAD/UNCENSORED, etc. This will permit those editors who believe in accurate historical information to continue to build wikipedia and not get blanked out continuously. Here is an example Islam and Slavery Uncensored-- Urchid 3 July 2005 16:17 (UTC)
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In the article it says Islam means "submission" it actually means "Faith" as in "Faith to Allah." Or "Faith to the betterment of mankind"
The meaning of Islam is NOT faith. Some people say it means submission, some people say it means "peace." Many claim, and im pretty confident it's true, that "Islam" is derived from the word "Salam" which means "peace." The word "aslam" which to me sounds like the verb form of Islam is usually translated as "submit." Perhaps it comes from "Salam" and literally means "pacify", which may have over time, been taken to mean "submit"? That seems to make sense. Since Islam is probably the noun form of "aslam", it seems to make sense either way.
2005-07-20
Many claim that "Islam" is derived from the word "salam", but it is only a claim. The word "islam" means "istislaam" and comes from the root word "aslama", spelt from left to right, the transliteration of the arabic letters are as follows: alif, seen, lam, meem; vs. "salama" which is: seen, lam, meem (notice 4 letters vs. 3). These are two completely different words (verbs). Shaykh Ibn Katheer (d.774H) – rahimahullaah – a great Islamic scholar, one of the best exegesists of the Qur'an, said: “And ‘ibaadah (worship) is: obedience to Allaah by acting upon what He commands and abandoning what He forbids; and this is the reality and essence of Islaam. And the meaning of Islaam is: istislaam (submission and surrender) to Allaah – the Most High – along with the utmost compliance, humility and submissiveness to Him." It does not mean "peace". Peace is obtained as a consequence of submitting oneself to the will (legislated laws) of Allah, by willfully desiring to obey Him in His obligations and doing so and staying away from His prohibitions, further supplemented by optional but recommended acts of worship to earn His pleasure. Through this one attains, peace of the heart (i.e. contentment), peace of mind, peace within the society practicing Islam openly and completely, etc. I hope this helps clarify some things.
"spelt from left to right, the transliteration of the arabic letters are as follows: alif, seen, lam, meem; vs. "salama" which is: seen, lam, meem (notice 4 letters vs. 3). These are two completely different words (verbs)." That argument does not seem to hold up. The arabic word "kariha" is spelled ka, ra, ha; vs. ikraha, spelled alif, ka, ra, ha. But they are both different forms of the same verb: to hate. This seems to be true for almost all verbs.
A new editor has arrived, and has split the Tenets of Islam into two sections, Sunni and Shi'a, and vastly elaborated the Shi'a section. It is now longer than the Sunni section. It seems to me that this disturbs the flow of the article (introducing sectarian divisions in advance of the sectarian section) and unduly amplifies the distinction between Sunni and Shi'a. There is so much that these sects have in common. I'm not sure I want to revert -- the earlier version, with its presentation of the Sunni list and a footnote for the Shi'a seems, to slight the Shi'a, which may have upset the new editor -- but I don't have time to rewrite today.
Could someone else tackle it? I'm thinking that we need to avoid the clash of lists and just identify, informally, the beliefs that all Muslims (Sunni, Shi'a, Ibadi) hold in common. The Qur'an, Muhammad, the Hajj ... what else? Zora 01:19, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
These topics are covered in NPOV and are part of the article. The usual suspects are probably going to start their usual attempt at squashing the information.Nevertheless the info belongs here.-- Aldowi 13:49, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I removed the slavery section (again -- we have some very determined POV warriors here) and added a link to Slavery in the "see also" section. Surely this should be a sufficient pointer to the info there. Zora 18:36, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
OO that was very logical , quoting CHRISTIAN ACTION for an article on Islam . U know christians were the ones who captured & marketed those slaves to America , so U should first add this to Christianity page . How pathetic..some guys come here only to publicitise what they read on their hate filled evanglist sites . And U know whats even funnier , all the facts about verses in bible about slavery havebeen removed from the slavery page . And some phobic psychos R insistent to add slavery in main Islam page , just b/c their teachers told them that slavery is a core belief in Islam . Feel free to PM me if U want to Slavery in Christianity page . I have loads of verses from OT & NT for that matter . Peace Farhansher 20:55, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
U and your published historian & your Christian action site know nothing about what Islam says about Slavery . Besides U know nothing what relevent is . What the Christian action people want .. well .. one can easily figure out by watching their logo ..africa bible..cross .. & a sword . Nice
BTW this is english page .. right ?? Farhansher 05:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
U guys have nerves talking about what Quran says , when all U read is one-forth of a verse . For your benifit I've started a new article , Islam and Slavery . Farhansher 05:39, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I have a request for an admin change under protection to the page. The link "Slavery Under Islam" should probably link to the protected page Islam_and_slavery since linking to the unprotected Slavery page just seems to be unnecessarily spreading the fight there. It's also just the most logical place for it to link to. -- Camipco 7 July 2005 06:43 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources in the Qu'ran and the hadiths mentioning slavery. You can start with a search on the word slave. Muhammad had slaves, and historical Islamic culture has always been characterized by the ownership and trading of slaves. The atrocities and evil commited in Islamic culture through slavery is so horific that most people would not have the stomach for it.
-- Aldowi 12:18, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Try improving your reading/surfing habits . Hope that helps ,
Farhansher 21:26, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Aldowi, this is the Islam section of Wikipedia. This has no need for your pointless vandalism and anti-Islamic POV. In any case, all of the so-called information you have linked to is completely irrelevant to your point. You can not expect viewers to believe your lies simply because you have linked to christian missionary sites. SLAVERY, if any, was in NO way was as severe in Islam as it was in christianity and that is proven to the mid 19th century; don't even try to dispute that.
One common christian misconception about Islam is the notion that it gives sanction to slavery. In fact, the very initial Makkan surahs appealed to the Muslims to liberate as many slaves as they could. The Prophet (pbuh)also directed the Muslims to raise the standard of living of the slaves and bring it equal to their own standard. So, don't try to shove any of your propaganda in to this article as the Qur'an and the Hadith are both against slavery.
Before you try to present your anti-Islamic views and completely useless links, go look at other religions such as christianity which have actively performed slavery because ISLAM WAS COMPLETELY AGAINST IT. And in any case, this is the ISLAM section of wikipedia and this, like all other religion sections, is not the place to put this material. Why the heck do you anti-Islamic idiots have problems with realizing the basic facts? Or quite clearly it is just a sad attempt to try and make your own troublesome religion look "good". -- Anonymous editor 20:14, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Aldowi, how ignorant are you? NOT once in the Qur'an is slavery mentioned in the negative way that you described it and neither is it sanctioned. Here are a few examples:
So, I think frankly that you have trouble reading or maybe you are just too biased towards Islam in the first place. In any case, you have NO PROOF to support your statement that Islam sanctions slavery. Secondly, you said you have an "open mind". How can you have an open mind when clearly you are nothing but an anti-Islamic POV extremist who tries to use the fact that the word "slave" occurs in the Quran as proof that Islam allows "atrocities" against slaves! And it does't matter what you have written on the topic of Islam and what studies you have done if you were biased against the religion in the first place. You are nothing but close-minded and you think that by coining phrases like "primitive superstition" and calling everyone who proves you wrong an "Islamic zealot" you can get a point across.
This is an another low for anti-Islamic bigots and I wouldn't be surprised that you are just another right-wing christian trying to give a bad name to Islam simply because you need a scapegoat for the problems with your own religion. I know all about this because I was taught to try and degrade Islam (in particular) by my church before I converted to Islam. Why do you and other bigots insist on bringing your pointless vandalism to all Islam-related articles?
Lastly, as both muslim and non-muslim editors have stated, this section is about the religion of Islam, not slavery. Religions do NOT need a dedicated "slavery" section. So stop your vandalism and do research on Islam that isn't simply gathered propaganda from anti-Islamic sites. -- Anonymous editor 20:03, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
Dear Colleagues, Hello. I have been watching this article for some time, and I am sad that there is prevailing a thorny problem at the moment about slavery in Islam. Aldowi, since I am a sheltered Christian from Arizona, I don't know anything about the teachings of the Koran, and I would appreciate seeing the specific verses that most quintessentially represent the positive attitude of the Koran toward slavery. I would be interested in passages equivalent to the Mosaic law sections dealing with slaves that give tacit permission in the Old Testament. Please give the passages along with their references. I will let the Muslims here verifiy for me that your selections are correct. Thanks. Also, may I know exactly what you would like to be sure the article says? Tom Haws 20:18, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
-- Noitall 05:57, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
-- Urchid 11:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I you're going to mention it prominently here, you might as well mention it in every article about every other culture and religion (including Christianity). Pointing Islam out specifically for its slavery is biased against Muslims.
Xunflash
18:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Something about Islam descending from a pagan moon cult should be included here.
Yes it should be mentioned, since it is an accurate historical fact but there are a bunch of anti-freedom of speech Islamic supporters continuously monitoring this page who do nothing but tear down any changes they do not want presented to the world.-- 68.130.206.88 12:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No, I don't think it should. It's a shoddy theory, one that has been disproven over and over again by Muslims and non-Muslim historians. Go see Talk:Allah on that, its not worth mentioning.
I have heard a lot about Christianity descending from worshipers of Sun godess Eshtre ( from where Easter originated ), & some others that I cant remember . Should that be included in Christianity too . And what about Jews worshiping the Cow , when Moses went to Mount Sinai . Farhansher 08:14, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Those "some" who believe Islam is (or descended from) a moon cult are largely Christian polemicists and have a venerable tradition; in the earliest such literature one finds not only the moon cult accusation, but allegations of worshipping the head of Aphrodite in the form of a stone and summoning up demons by night. (Not to mention the standard accusation, beginning (IIRC) with St. John Damascene and presented more recently in Hilaire Belloc's writings, that Islam is a Christian heresy, no better than warmed-over Arianism.) So much for that.
A historian of religion without any axe to grind would readily acknowledge that Islam incorporated elements from Jahiliyyah paganism (which was not, note, exclusively or even primarily a moon cult), along with the greater influences of Judaism and Christianity. Even the 8th-century Muslim scholar Ibn al-Kalbi readily acknowledges that the hajj and certain associated practices, notably the circumambulation of the Kaaba, were adopted from the pagan Arabs—though he avers that they, in turn, got it from Abraham. I'm vaguely aware of later Islamic literature that addresses the topic, but can't recall specifics.
The same historian would not fail to acknowledge how much of Islamic belief, notably its strict monotheism, was formed in direct opposition to that same paganism. He would also leave off writing something about it here until he had written the in-depth explanation in the article on the history of Islam. — Charles P. (Mirv) 2 July 2005 01:35 (UTC)
Islam has no relationship with the ancient Semite moon cults. The Qur'an itself describes the moon as a thing created by God. There is room for comments on the Moon cult business, this is after all an encyclopedia but those references are foot-note material not main entry. Kiwimac
Plus I get the feeling he's a fan of Mystery Science Theatre 3000, which is problematic in and of itself. BrandonYusufToropov 12:55, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The source being in Arabic is not the problem. The quote's accuracy, reliability, and relevance is. In reality, the 6 million a year figure is given by a guest on an al-Jazeera talk show, one Ahmad Al-Qataani of Libya. He gives no sources for this figure, as far as I can see, and, from his alarmist tone ("667 Muslims a minute!") I suspect him of simply trying to drum up funding for his own missionary efforts. The quote thus has no credibility. Find an almanac or some other reasonably trustworthy source. - Mustafaa 23:26, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Guys there is no point in this dialogue . These people ( with multiple IDs ) r all brain slaves of Sina & Spencer , both liers hypocrites . Their sites R a new version of Missionary sites, with the added charm of " I was a muslim once ". I dont know if U have figured out uptli now , but for me its as clear as 0 & 1 . There sentences , logics , choice of vocab , phrases , R a perfect match of the brain slaves of these 2 as**oles . If U dont believe me , checkout their site . They arnt here to improve WP . They R here to give links to their site to increase their hitrate , & to defame Islam . Hope that helps . Farhansher 05:21, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Just a question: shouldn't continuing demographic trends be added to this? Such as the below info:
"The world population is growing at about 1.10% per year, but the percentage of Muslim population is increasing by 1.4% per year due to both converts and growth rates. It has been stated by many that statistics show that within the next century Islam will outgrow Christianity and become the largest religion in the world."
The reason is simply because it indicates the growth of the religion and I believe should be added to a "Future of Islam" section. I have seen this material on several NPOV sites and various statistics and am willing to cite my sources if needed.
So what do you think? -- Anonymous editor 06:36, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
There appears to be an extreme intolerance of alternate views on this page being perpetuated by a small clique of editors who have been attempting to monopolize all edits on this page. Wikipedia is a colloberative endeavor not a tug of war between zealots. IF you have any questions on Wikipedia's NPOV policy go here. WIKIPEDIA NEUTRALITY POLICY . Thank you for your cooperation.-- Urchid 00:23, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, there is no monopolization. You can not simply understand that the material that you want to add is illegitimate and is no more then POV. Regardless, this is the ISLAM article, not the conversion article. I don't see other religions with info like this on their section. Perhaps you should get factual statements rather than put anti-Islamic views onto the religion section. By the way, if we were to mention something along those lines, we would have to mention the many millions more who convert/have converted TO Islam (like me). I know the truth hurts you.
You are zealous about your opinion perhaps you should be more tolerant and stop your persistent vandalism. Thanks.-- Anonymous editor 02:14, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
Anyone with a remote knowledge of the atrocities being constantly carried out by Muslims in the world today must speak out. These horrible attacks on truth by Muslims who would hide it are not acceptable. Muslims murdered 2,000 on September 11, 2001. Islam is responsible for the heartless murder of journalist Daniel Pearl. The term "Islamic extremist" should not be used because all Muslims are a threat. Even Islamic clergy are now encouraging and promoting murder of "infidels". Islam is an evil religion that enslaves women, turns men into bloodthirsty monsters, and calls for the murder of those not stuck in its stinking, rotting quagmire. Muslims are even now trying to infiltrate the U.S. bringing their foul, scum of a religion here. There is no love in Islam, only hate, a vicious murderous hatred. The crusades were entirely necassary. If the Christians had not driven out the Moors, Europe might today be the living hell that the Middle East is now. There is not a shred of honor, not one iota, in Islam. It would have been better if Mohammed had never been born. Osama Bin Laden is one of his monsters, blood-thirsty and murderous who masterminded the NYC mass murders on 9/11 nearly 4 years ago. Islam is no religion of "peace", whatever people like Cassius Clay may call it. Muslims are a lost people, floundering in the darkness, following a distant, unloving god, and trying to get to Heaven by murdering Christians and Jews. Jesus came into the world to redeem mankind; to save us from our sins. Muslims' only hope for happiness, a changed heart, and eternal life is to give their lives over to the one who truly loves them, Jesus Christ and to make him their savior and Lord. Therein lies true freedom. 4.158.211.175 01:22, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
You should probably get a blog. This sort of "truth" is better expressed in that medium than in an encyclopaedia. Grace Note 01:25, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I feel tempted to get rid of above user's editorial comments, but it is too humorous to bear. Perhaps a section on the distortion, or myths of Islam is prudent (for one, in response to the op ed--there is no such thing as a peaceful Abrahamic religion. Each has nuances of peace, harmony and love, and each has its nuaces of hatred, dispair and violence.) One could figure out where the misinformation is coming from and that would be a truly powerful addition to this article. Well, my opinion at least.
User 4.158.211.175, a possible sockpuppet of Urchid, is nothing more than a bigot. It is not uncommon to hear people like him commit racism against muslims, because frankly they fear so much that christianity is losing against Islam in terms of conversions and growth. It is not uncommon to hear stuff like this being taught in christian extremist churches, I know because I was once evangelical. Truly shows how misinformed they are when they say that 'muslims follow an unloving god', when it is the same God that christians worship. LOL.Perhaps this user should also look through history and see that if it was not for Islam, Europe would have never made it out of the dark ages and into the renaissance that is the foundation of modern western civilization.
How about you mention the numerious atrocities that christianity committed with other religions and still does to this day? How about the hundreds of thousands of civilian Muslims and JEWS slaughtered ruthlessly during the crusades? Or how about how the United States bombing muslims in Lebanon on false grounds? This is bound to get retaliation, my friend, and although I do not agree with extremism, 9/11 was bound to happen.
Maybe you should also mention how christian evangelization led to the death of thousands of africans or how evangelicals were smuggling orphan children out of Indonesia after the tsunami in order to convert them?
Frankly I don't find it necessary to debate about this anymore right now because clearly you are nothing more than a bigot and and it is your own POV and attempt at recruiting more zealous christians for your pathetic cause. It goes against everything that WIKIPEDIA stands for. And yes, you can believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is "lord and savior", but you and I both know that is nothing more than a dying fad and people with half a brain are leaving christianity as we speak.
Praise be to Allah that I converted to Islam. It is only through him that we wake up and see the reality. -- Anonymous editor 03:09, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, your agreement with that 'general premise' truly shows your credibility and true nature. Maybe since now that you seem so NPOV, we should listen to everything you say. (sarcasm ofcourse) -- Anonymous editor 03:18, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Gren, generally I agree with you and I was definitely counter-POVing not NPOVing in this case. I am saddened that it has come down to something like this. Truly wikipedia is no place for stuff like this.In response to urchid: Man, I am not what faith you are and I am still embrassed by YOUR behaviour. I suppose you are very tolerant? -- Anonymous editor 03:33, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
_ _ _
Okay first things first. THIS article is NOT a POV debate. It is not my POV that should go there and it is not yours. It is a factual article, one can NOT say their POV. Frankly, who cares what others think about Islam??? That doesn't change what Islam is, does it? Why can't you understand that?
Secondly, you are the one who called me intolerant simply because of my POV. see your message above. The fact that I responded to you by saying that "I suppose you are very tolerant?" is simply in response to your assertion.
You are not making anything better by claiming that those people on the streets of Pakistan were "zealots ranting about their little book". Is it wrong to respect one's religion? Would other religions not protest if their holy book was destroyed in such a manner?
Lastly, you are misinformed about Islam in accordance with the facts of Islam. In reality, do you really think that you can come close to factual information about Islam better a muslim who clearly knows the tenets of the religion? The fact of the matter is that one who clearly practices the faith is more likely to know the facts about it better than someone who doesn't. It is just like a communist is more likely to know communism better than a non-communist.
So remember that this is not a POV debate. It is a factual article. There is no reason for any POV in this article. It should be all factual statements. People's opinions about Islam do NOT change what Islam is. -- Anonymous editor 04:20, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
guys, an anonymous account cannot be a sockpuppet. sockpuppet are accounts used by people who have another, primary account. dab (ᛏ) 14:12, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
also, you should all try a chatroom. If you cannot discuss the article's wording in a civil, academic, neutral atmosphere, you shouldn't even be here.
dab
(ᛏ) 14:15, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
To AE: Why on Earth can't you be more civil! I have gone through a lot of this talk page and all throughout I see your stupid ranting! If somebody doesn't agree with you: "Yell, Yell, Yell, Shout, Shout, Shout, So And So is a bigot, So And So is intolerant, everybody should be tolerant of my ideas but I don't have to be tolerant of anybody else's!" I'm not user 4.158 but I do agree with him for the most part! I see no reason to be neutral about this topic when you can't be. Ratso 19:32, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
needless to say, the information in "Islam and slavery" was in the wrong article. After all, we don't have "Christianity and Islam" in the Christianity article, discussing all the good Christians who shipped slaves to America after outbidding their Islamic Arabic counterparts. The names of Muhammad's slaves should go to the Muhammad article. Islamic laws on slavery should go to the Sharia article. dab (ᛏ) 14:12, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Wow, "jihadism", did you just make up that word off the top of your head? Totally shows how misinformed you are when you make up words faster than Foxnews. Clearly, when you write a section in an article where it does not belong and fill it with lies, you are going to get opposition. What exactly are your sources; do you know anything about Islam that is not gathered from right-wing american bigot sites?-- Anonymous editor 00:11, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
So, 12 million blacks were sold as slaves by islamic slave traders to christian slave traders? What does that tell you except that slave trading is apparently independent of religion, and that this factoid (if it is one) is at home neither in the Islam nor in the Christianity (or in both, with the same justification), but in the slavery article. I mean, really, how about "Islam and stupidity" (some muslims are stupid!) "Islam and roadkill" (muslims run over animals on the highway!) or "Islam and ugliness" (some muslims are ugly!). Factuality is one thing, notability is another (slave trade is notable), relevance is quite another thing (slave trade is not relevant to the ship article, in spite of slaves having been transported in ships). This is too obvious to even argue. We do not want either Islam-hyping editors here, nor Islam-bashing one. Unfortunately, we have both kinds now, only neutralizing each other by emission of a lot of unsavoury diatribes. dab (ᛏ) 08:37, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Looks like Anonymous editor is editing Farhansher 's text. A slip up? sock puppets?-- Urchid 23:00, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Lol, funny. I was only editing text because I assumed the message by Farhanser was intended for you. Obviously he doesn't mean me and I wanted to avoid confusion by others, thus I wrote 'to urchid:' by his message. Anyways sockpuppetry is your expertise, although you prefer to use non-users. -- Anonymous editor 23:44, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
His comment was clearly towards you because you are the only one misinformed enough to have made such false statements in the first place. It's sad to see that you take offence to the truth. Perhaps you should follow your own advice before judging others. Thanks. -- Anonymous editor 19:50, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
This throw into question all the assumptions demographics of Islam Today -- Urchid 00:27, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Okay so according to your "sources" christianity is growing in Africa. Why exactly does this belong in the ISLAM article??? The concern was never christianity growth in Africa, it was about a unreliable claim that muslims were converting to it. I can quote many sites that say Islam is growing in Africa and that would still be related to the ISLAM demographics section.
Why can't you understand how wikipedia works? If you want to enter this info of yours put it in a christianity-related article. The sources don't even mention Islam! Why should the Islam article incorporate info/propaganda about christianity growth???
Frankly, this Islam article isn't concerned with christianity is it. Btw, you seem rather persistent to enter anti-Islamic, pro-christian material for someone who says that they have no religion. Maybe what you really are is finally showing.-- Anonymous editor 00:41, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Why can't you understand that there is no need for POV on this article in the first place? This is not a debatable recent event, it is a factual article about Islam.
Why exactly would the growth of christianity be relevant in an Islam article? Why do you want to insert christianity info/propaganda into the Islam article? You can provide all the 'sources' you want but as long as it is NOT related to the article, why does it matter?
You are the only one here who is entering the most disputed material with stuff about christianity when your sources don't even mention Islam. Wikipedia is NOT a christian propaganda site. You seem stubborn on putting in christian material into an ISLAM article; go put christian material into the christianity article. Seriously, even you must realize something as simple as this???
By the way, I AM A MUSLIM. I know what Islam is because I practice it. It is you who has the 'fantasy image' and is being nothing more than a bigot. -- Anonymous editor 01:02, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Urchid, what you fail to understand is that the growth numbers you 'cited' from your sources have nothing to do with ISLAM whatsoever. What do christianity growth numbers have to do with Islam in the first place? If you want to put you 'source' and 'claim' in an appropriate article put it in the christianity article.
The only problem here is that you seem to have a problem understanding what this article is about. You are clearly the one who is 'frothing in the mouth' as you are over-stimulated at the idea that you can vandalize a perfectly legitimate article by inserting christian propaganda about christian growth. Truly anyone can realize that is unrelated to this article and does not belong here, why can't you?
The only problem here is your bigotry against Islam. The article tells the truth and you insist that your racist views and totally unrelated claims be added to this article. Every time the editors remove your vandalism you show them disrespect and claim that you are being censured and that the article is a destruction of truth. If you can't edit the ISLAM article fairly and without extreme anti-Islamic POV, go away because your propaganda is not needed here. -- Anonymous editor 19:23, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be a good idea to include high and low estimates of adherence and growth. And I believe that adherents.com would be a good unbiased source. I quote "Contemporary figures for Islam are usually between 900 million and 1.4 billion, with 1 billion being a figure frequently given in comparative religion texts, probably because it's such a nice, round number. The largest and best known branches of Islam are Sunni and Shi'ite."
[2]
Tom Haws 15:11, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
AE, I guess I agree with you, but if you won't stop shouting, nobody will read what you say. Just let the cooler heads (like Mustafaa and Tom) quote the estimate ranges. The exact number, and the exact growth rate is unknown, live with it. Both Christianity and Islam are growing, because of population growth, and the numbers are extremely unreliable, because the countries with highest growth rate also have the worst level of organization (a.k.a. 3rd World). dab (ᛏ) 19:45, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Glad to see you agree with me, Dab. Surely anyone can see that urchid's claims have nothing to do with the article and clearly supposed christianity African statistics do not belong in an Islam article. The controversy was never over growth rates, it was about adding completely unrelated material about christianity. By the way I am not shouting I am clarifying what I mean and urchin can't seem to understand for some reason and enjoys making remarks against editors in general. Thanks for your input in this matter. -- Anonymous editor 20:03, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying this, Paul. I already knew what Dab was saying though. I wasn't trying to be rude but I apologize if the bolding/capitalization of my text was offensive to anyone. Thanks. -- Anonymous editor 03:04, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
So please stop putting that at the top of the article, Urchid. BrandonYusufToropov 12:10, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The dispute doesn't seem to be about specifics -- you aren't challenging anything that's there -- it's just that you want to include stuff that you believe reflects badly on Islam, even if it's not particularily germane to the article. I added a link to the Slavery article, in the See also section -- Islam and slavery is discussed there, as part of a discussion of slavery in general. How come you aren't insisting on adding the names of the slaves owned, if known, to every historical figure in Wikipedia? No, you're just interested in making the equation Islam = slavery. You're marking the article POV because it doesn't hew to your POV ... and that's wrong. Zora 12:36, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Agree with Zora. There may be a factuality dispute concerning conversion rates, but that is simply up to either side being able to present credible sources. afaik, no serious estimate has been censored. "I want to insert oblique potshots aimed at Islam in general" is not a content dispute, sorry. Nobody disputes slavery was common, both in Islamic and Christian society. If you must, insert a list of Muhammad's slaves in the Muhammad article (if the list is factual), but it is certainly not pertinent to this article. dab (ᛏ) 13:33, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Anonymous editor, talk about adding edits like that which were previously decided against for doing it. An article of this size and nature should not have arbitrary decisions made by one editor like you are doing and not expect them to be reverted. Discuss it here first and get input. I am not totally against it, I am rather apathetic towards the issue but you are a single editor among many so please discuss putting a "general links" section into the article and which sites it should contain. I am guessing that BrandonYusuf's, yours and Urchids opinion might not be the same in which links to put. gren 19:11, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely fine. I will keep the links at hand until people have voiced their opinions. TO EVERYONE: Should general, factual external links about Islam be added to the article, much like the other religion articles? Please voice your opinions as this is both: to help people find material that gives a better understanding of the religion, and also to add to the professionalism of Wikipedia by adding factual external links like other credible encyclopedias have. Similarly feel free to recommend factual links so that editors may review whether they should be added. Thanks. --
BrandonYusuf, Mustafaa, Zora, Yuber, Dab and Farhanser, you have all been major contributors to this article and your input in this matter would be greatly appreciated. Anonymous editor 20:09, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
I'll comment on the links issue. Someone else -- I forget who -- proposed the directories solution in response to my effort to clear out the links. Before I started pruning, there were dozens of links, to different sects, to different teachers, and more were being added each day. Anyone who wanted more publicity for his/her preferred version of Islam was adding a link. There didn't really seem to be any way to limit the links without provoking howls of protest at the discrimination. The suggestion to list only directories was received with a general sigh of relief. Having seen the alternative, I would argue vigorously that we keep to this policy for the Islam page. Links have been allowed to proliferate freely on the pages for the various sects/versions of Islam. Zora 20:02, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, factual, external links about Islam should be added to the article. Owing to the Mohammedan's willingness to follow the sunnah of Mohammed, we have an element of Taqiyya mixed with intolerance of anything that may expand upon the "sugar-coated" version of Islam that is being promoted here, exploiting the popularity of this site and using it as a one-eyed propaganda facility. I placed a link to this page as an INFORMATION SOURCE about Islam......... www.faithfreedom.org/links.htm .........so where did it go?
I've lost track of who did what, but the first para has been turned into an encomium of Islam as the source of art and science. I don't think that's NPOV, and it's certainly debatable that this is a distinguishing characteristic of Islam. Other religions have also contributed to the arts and sciences. I also removed a phrase re Islam being an Abrahamic faith. That categorization is Muslim -- I don't think I've ever heard an Jews or Christians use it. In fact, I still remember the first time I ran into it, in a National Geographic article on Abraham some years ago. It would certainly not be comprehensible to non-Muslims. Most Christians will refer to the Judeo-Christian tradition, and ignore Islam entirely. The first para sets the tone, and that tone should be NPOV. Zora 21:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yuber, it seems a little hostile to revert to the "Abrahamic religions" version while we're still discussing it. Zora 23:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Which I'll do right now. Zora 00:11, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Aha, it's done. OK. Zora 00:13, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Zora is both sympathetic and nice to Yuber, and he still reverts her. Unbelievable. FYI, Christianity is not an Abrahamatic religion. Christianity is a christian religion. -- Noitall 00:50, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Actually it was me who added the word "Abrahamic religions" here . The word was present in Christianity & Judaism's first para . So I thought it should be added here too . In Judaism, this word is present with a link to Islam page. Farhansher 04:22, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
of course you need the second part. Any monotheist would subscribe to "there is no god but God". To be a Muslim, you need the additional belief that Muhammad's testimony is authentic, just as to be a Christian, you need to believe that Jesus was sent by God (not necessarily that he is God, viz. Arianism, Unitarianism). Just saying la ilaha illa llahu says nothing about the status of the Quran, i.e. you may testify that, and still think the Quran is a surrealist poem, which would hardly make you a Muslim. 80.219.219.208 11:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have not yet edited on this article, but am preparing to do so. Of course, as a Christian, I want to have knowledge before inserting my POV. I believe that finding one or two sources on google and reading the Koran text as I think it should read and interpreting it the way I think it should be interpreted should be a good generalization for the entire Islamic world. But it does not really matter because, as User:Mustafaa argues, Muslims can believe anything or nothing at all, so anything I find on google is good and must be accurate and correct. Anyhow, don't you agree that I will soon be an Islamic expert?
Oh, by the way, that was not my opinion, but was User:Mustafaa's argument as to why he can interpret Christian texts and is really qualified with lots of expertise as to edit the Christian interpretation of Abraham. I disagreed and made the argument that I am respectful of other religions and that I am not really qualified to understand all the nuances of the religion to edit on Wiki. Anyhow, if Mustafaa's opinion is the right one, I will really enjoy doing some research and debating you all on what the text and interpretations of Islam mean. -- Noitall 02:12, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Can someone please explain to me what this discussion has to do with this article? This seems like a discussion concerning the Abraham article. I think this discussion should be moved there. Paul August ☎ 03:21, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Edip Yuksel has just discovered Wikipedia. He seems to be a disciple of Rashad Khalifa; he claims to represent the Quran Alone Muslims, who at this point seem to consist of him and one other gentleman. He is busily editing the Islam article to insert his name, as well as setting up a page for Quran Alone, and trying to link to it. I've removed the link, since I have no evidence that there are any other adherents of "Quran Alone" than these two new editors, and the page may have to be deleted. Zora 23:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Was there not a section called "Problems with Islam" in this article, which covered various issues, and has now been removed?
In the section "Schools (Branches}", in the paragraph beginning "Recently, with the rise of the Internet ..." the following passage occurs which needs to be rewritten, however I'm not sure what it is trying to say:
Paul August ☎ 08:19, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
Paul August, who hasn't been involved here previously, has been making a great many changes, most of which seem to be mere copyediting. In checking his edits, I found that I generally approved of them -- but felt that they didn't go far enough. I've been sucked into the skirmishing over sentences and sections, and haven't looked at the article as a whole for a while. Some of the prose seemed to me to rather substandard (which is frequently the case in often-edited articles). I ended up reorganizing the sects section and rephrasing a number of things that I felt were ... dubious.
I found that someone had inserted a large lump of Qur'an-only proselytizing, which I removed. I also found that someone had upped the percentage of Sunnis to 95% -- clearly a Sunni triumphalist.
There is one section that I would like to delete, but don't want to do it unilaterally. There is a whole section on liberal Islam that floats unmoored from the "sects" section. Though I would certainly be a liberal Muslim if I were a Muslim, it seems to me to be POV for the liberals to get their own section when other sects don't. OK to remove? Zora 09:00, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
An anon editor, with no other edits to his/her credit, changed a sentence re Christian nations at the time Islam arose not tolerating religions/sects other than the state religion, to "some" Christian nations. I removed the qualifier, as I can't think of a single tolerant Christian state before the Renaissance. All of them had state religions and periodically persecuted or expelled Jews, other Christian sects, etc. Even if a few tolerant states could be adduced, I'm not sure that this would require changing the qualifier to "some" -- I would say that it would be "most". Hmmm ... tolerant nations ... Poland, I think, and the Netherlands once they broke free of the Spanish. Europeans had to kill each other for centuries before they grudgingly accepted tolerance. Any other suggestions? Zora 12:03, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I made a few edits to this article a few hours ago. On my talk page ( here), Zora asked me to explain what I am doing on this page, so here I am ;-) My changes were as a result of reading the article and making copyedits and trying to improve the writing, along the way. It was not my intention to change the sense or meaning of any part of the article. if I have misunderstood some passage and inadvertently changed its intended meaning, then please accept my apologies. If anyone wants to discuss any of my edits, I'm more than happy to do so. Paul August ☎ 13:40, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
Why is color of Islam green ?
[Siyac] 14:19, Jun 28, 2005 (UTC)
Re-added to article as it evidently won't stand as its own article without the Wiki-Islamo-zeolots at once whitewashing it down to nothing.-- Urchid 2 July 2005 14:27 (UTC)
Urchid, please avoid personal remarks. Focus on the content instead. Anonymous editor, the same goes for you, even if you feel provoked.
Now, the issue of the extensive slavery section has been discussed above ( #New or old sections have been reinserted, #Islam and Slavery, and #slaves) and the general consensus seems to be that so much detail is out of place in this overview article, which after all has to cover 1400 years of Islamic history, doctrine, thought, and practice. The details belong in a separate article, which should be referenced and linked to from this page. — Charles P. (Mirv) 2 July 2005 15:17 (UTC)
Since there has been endless censorship by the Pro Islam people on the Islam series of articles , what would you people think of creating a new series of articles called ISLAM/UNCENSORED , MUHAMMAD/UNCENSORED, etc. This will permit those editors who believe in accurate historical information to continue to build wikipedia and not get blanked out continuously. Here is an example Islam and Slavery Uncensored-- Urchid 3 July 2005 16:17 (UTC)