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Hajj is not a ritual. it says on the picture of hajj it is. It makes it seem like muslims take part is shamism or something.
The meaning of the word Ritual to many people means "Magic and Witchraft"
Please change —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.0.224.55 ( talk) 19:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
In the "Islam & other religions" box
It has Jainism and Sikhism; these are basically offshoots of Hindusim which pre-date the two.
Islam ought to be compared to major faiths, such as Christianity and Buddhism
The article is locked, but a citation for the missing one at the end of the first paragraph is at: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_muslims -- Jimbo42 ( talk) 21:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
This citation is not sufficient. The source is from the Vatican, not recognized as an authority on Islam by anybody but Catholics, and not even by all of them [correction: not even an official statement, an observation from a Vatican newspaper functionary]. The idea of Islam as "the largest denomination" is questionable on the face of it. First, Islam has denominations of it's own, and is not a denomination by itself. If it were, the word "denomination" would be meaningless in context. Second, denomination of what? Again, the label "denomination" would mark it as a smaller part of a larger religion, divided from others in the same religion by specific articles of faith or interpretation.
MathewGSmith (
talk)
18:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Islam is not a single denomination. There have for a long time been more Muslims that Catholics. Islam should be compared to Christianity in numbers, not Catholicism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.180.105.55 ( talk) 21:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Not sure if this has been brought up before or not, but the main article for Islam contains more Shiite things than Sunni, so is there any way we can clean/discuss this? Thanks DevilAsh Talk! 19:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
from alsadi: I Agreed with that because according to all statistics Sunnies are more than 90% (refer to the fact book) it's like having to mention the communist party in the front article about USA as a major party in USA during the cold war! the problem with this approach is that it ignores many facts like that Shiites are only found on far places where people don't speak Arabic like Iran I was shocked with many articles here about Islam. PS: Shiites have an organized ways to do vandalism on wikipedia as they pay Khums to fund that. Please In any Islamic related article one should ask about valid citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mydalsadi ( talk • contribs) 22:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
From Pink: I feel that the article for Islam should be much more general, while containing references or links to sections/articles that explain the viewpoints of the major sects (Sunni, Shia, etc.). For example, the "Five Pillars" is treated as if it were common to Shia and Sunni Islam, whereas Shia Islam has its own listing of its beliefs ("Usul ad-Din," 5) and its practises ("Furu' ad-Din," 10). Sunni Islam has the Five Pillars as a reference to core Sunni Islamic practises and also the Articles of Faith (6) in reference to its belief. Perhaps a brief treatment could be made of core Islamic beliefs and practises: 1) Belief in Allah 2) Belief in Prophet Muhammad 3) Belief in the Hereafter; 1) Salah 2) Zakat ("Charity" -> Zakat only for Sunni Muslims, Zakat and Khums for Shia Muslims) and 3) Hajj. Afterward, reference could be made to those points that distinguish Sunni and Shia Islam. This kind of treatment should also take care of DevilAsh's concern, since many topics would contain a general explanation of an Islamic topoic and then divert to Shia, Sunni, and other Islamic sectarian distinctions after covering the generality of Islamic belief/practise/etc. Therefore, it would not seem to contain so many references that specified only the Shia Islamic viewpoint of various topics. 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 22:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Pink
Islam is not a new religion originating from teachings of Muhammad (PBUH) , its revival of teachings of Christ and Moses. Muslims believes in teachings of Christ and Moses and Quran - the Muslim holy book - is the revival of teachings of Bible. looking for citation to add this sentence to article introduction
usman 19:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Islam was predicted by pagan gods. and the birth of Muhammad (reincarnation of pagan god) kinda messed up. dates back millions of years or something like that -- Mohun ( talk) 22:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Not only in Bhavishya Purana its also mentioned in Atharaveda, Sama Veda, RigVed, Bhagawat Purana, Kalkis and goes on and on. I think the only refs to claim this would be actual pictures from these Vedas. im still working on it. i gatherd a lot of sources. and so far i can also say that the information you hear about Muhammad and Vedas are all true. i went through some books and the page numbers and chapters that articles listed about Muhammad in Vedas it all matches up so far. and futher goes into more detail. its going to take some time for me, the most i can tell you is that these website that claim Muhammad in Vedas are not making stuff up and the page numbers and chapters seem to be proper. -- Mohun ( talk) 00:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
From Pink: As a conservative Muslim, I feel that it is easiest to treat Islam as its own religion when discussing it in an academic manner, rather than treating it as an original religion from which others branched. One problem in dealing with it as an original and ancient religion is that those qualities that distinguish it from other religions would have to undergo development in academic treatments. For example, the requirement for salat was different under Prophet Moses than under Prophet Muhammad, and it is alsmost certain that the various postures and recitations that comrpise salat have changed over the millenia. In addition, requirements for charitable contribution, pilgrimage, funeral processes, modesty, marriage, etc. have all changed over the millenia. Academically speaking, the primordial "Islam" is not recognisable. Furthermore, Muslims are taught that all are born on the natural path of monotheism - it is likely that this natural monotheism is what constituted the primordial religion of Prophet Adam and his family. It would simply be too confusing and require too much time, energy, and space to treat Islam as the religion that existed since the time of Adam. We Muslims have bigger fish to fry, anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 22:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 22:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC) Pink
In an encyclopedia, we strive to distinguish between fact and dogma. To take an example from another religion, the early Catholic church heavily edited the texts that became the new testament, but editing does not change the truth (or lack thereof) of the original text. Muslims may take comfort in believing that Islam precede Muhammad, but the fact is that he started the religion, and not a single human "practiced" Islam before him. Michael.Urban ( talk) 16:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
alSala'amu alaykum. Since most of our prophets are Hebrews and Aramaics, and looking over to the Qur'an, it is quite clear that modern Islam is a re-birth of a faith gone wrong, especially between the time of Eliyas and that of I'sa. I was hoping the "History of Islam" would make significant reference to the Israelites/Children of Israel before the Muhammadan era.
(84) And Moses said: "O my people! If you have believed in God, then put your trust in Him if you are Muslims". (85) Then they [the Israelites] said: "In God we put our trust. Our Lord! Make us not a trial for those who are disbelievers".
Thanks. Omar 180 ( talk) 22:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
This article makes the statement that a woman recieves half the inheritence a man does, but does not explain why. In Islam, a man is required to provide for his family, and any money he has must be used for the general good of his wife and children. He is also expected to care for elderly parents. A woman's money from any source, however, is hers and hers alone. She is not required to spend it on necessities such as food, adequate clothing, shelter, heat, oil, etc.
Please ensure that statments such as this are fully explained. The last thing we need is people using articles like this as "proof" of Islam's negativity toward women simply because they are not complete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biblebeltmuslimah ( talk • contribs) 18:43, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
NOTE : One source is the Book "Wemon rights system in Islam" (Nizam-e- Hoghugh-e-Zanan-Dar-Islam) which is written in Persian, by the famous clerick "Mortaza-Motahhari". You can look at it if you want to make sure. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
85.133.199.210 (
talk)
06:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
There are many devout Muslims who do not trust the authenticity of recorded ahadith and sunnah of Mohammed (pbuh). There are also many devout Muslims who, regardless of their authenticity or inauthenticity, believe that the Qur'an itself is complete (by its own statment, many many times within its pages) and that ahadith and sunnah are simply unnecessary. These beliefs are definitely worth mentioning, especially since questionable ahadith and sunnah have formed the backbone of many "Islamist" regimes.
Please include a section on these beliefs, as the number of believers who ascribe to them is growing. I will gladly provide any information and documentation that may prove helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biblebeltmuslimah ( talk • contribs) 18:50, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I understand that the Qur'an-only adherents are small in numbers, but that does not mean they are nonexistent. I have read the "Undue Weight" policy and it has caused me to lose some respect for Wikipedia. Failure to mention minority viewpoints after they have been brought to attention is dishonest and misrepresentative. Biblebeltmuslimah ( talk) 16:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Not only are the Quraniyoon extremely small as a sect, they have been summarily dismissed by nearly every other Islamic sect as infidel on the basis of their rejection of the use of the Prophetic Sunnah as a source of Islam. The rest of Muslims view this rejection as a rejection of Prophet Muhammad himself, which is unbelief in terms of Islam. 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 22:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC) Pink
In the sections for Al-Bukhari's Sahih Hadith and the Quran, you can include two photos that I have taken of the worlds first printed copies of them, these are extremely rare and I'm not sure if there are other photos of them on the internet. Photos are below in my Islamic History section, if they will be used I will take my watermarks off them so let me know.
[ Photos of Islamic History] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arshadhabib ( talk • contribs) 00:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I noticed when i type Muhammadan it redirects to Islam. Muhammadan refers to (Pagans) that are Hindus and Buddhists that were known as Muhammadans before Islam was created. Note, there was no name of Hindu or Buddhists that time they were known as Muhammadans beacause of the Muhammadan Dynasty that arrived in South Asia. Muhammadan shold be an article about the pagan clans that were with Muhammad and shared all rituals and also described in the sacred vedas by pagan religon. Later, it was already predicted by the sacred vedas that Muhammad will be born as a reincarnation of another god and would be the one to lead the pagans and goes on and on. So its better to redirect Muhammadan to Muhammad article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohun ( talk • contribs) 22:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=muhammadan A Muhammadan is a follower of Muhammad. I'm curious if this means that Muhammadans follow only Muhammad's teachings and dismiss all the dogma that he had nothing to do with the creation of. Followers of Jesus Christ preach of following moral sincerity rather than strictly following religious ritual, so I think I see a comparison here. Also, as a random musing, if Muhammadans are followers of Muhammad that appeared before Islam was codified as it is today, wouldn't that make them a 'pure' form of followers? 74.67.17.22 ( talk) 03:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Why external links don't have eastern Muslims websits are nonMuslims afraid of the truth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.31.112.228 ( talk) 14:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not saying that western websits don't have the truth. Eastern sites have more info and has more members. There are many scholars for example see the site islam house. It has 74 languages in English there are alot of article audio books you will not stop learning from the site for years. Though every time I try to post this link the next page say spam i very good site for muslims and other to read as they like to understand is called a spam an no one can benefite from it. 2 April 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.30.159.86 ( talk) 14:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
"There are between 1.2 billion to 1.8 billion Muslims, making Islam the second-largest religion in the world after Christianity,[4] ---> but the largest single religious denomination.[5]"
What about Sunnis, Shi'a, Kharijites, etc? The article even has a section on denominations, so the above quote is clearly false hype. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.215.140.180 ( talk) 07:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
A denomination is a branch of a world religion so you can't really say "single denomination" it's just confusing also there in Islam one of the main reasons it's the largest growing religions is because when your'e born into a Muslim family you become a Muslim even though you may not follow the rules or lifestyle of a Muslim so a lot of the Islamic population is in fact made up of a lot of non Muslims really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.200.162 ( talk) 14:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Islam is now the largest religion in the world as per a few days ago.
CaribDigita ( talk) 07:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
No it is not the largest religion in the world. Islam as a whole is now larger than one division of christianity: the catholics. This is including shi'a and Sunni muslims. 33-38% of the world's population follows christianity, whereas only 18% of the world are Muslims, so NOT the largest group or even division, as Catholicism is larger than Sunni Muslims without shi'a muslims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.154.181 ( talk) 19:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
islam has atleast 1.2 billion minimum this bs about islam being only a billion strong, is not true. The cia world factbook, council on american islamic relations, and the vatican all say so they seem like credible sources to me [with the possible exeption of the cia, but lets not make this a wmd fakeout discussion] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gvpggt ( talk • contribs) 03:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Here are the facts: there are 2 billion Christians in the world and between 1.1-1.9 billion Muslims in the world of all sects. Does that sort out the problem? LOTRrules ( talk) 19:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
ok look im getting tired of beating this to death, until u tell me why the cia, the vatican, and the councl on american islamic relations are all, no your claim that 1.1 to 1.9 does not settle it. How about you provide me with an link to your supposed facts as i will do now #REDIRECT [ [1]]
Islam, as a whole, Sunni and Shi'ite is now bigger than the single Christian sect of Catholicism. But not bigger than Christianity as a whole, which includes Protestantism, Orthodox, Catholicism, etc.
Islam I believe would not even qualify as the largest single sect in the world, because it is split into Sunni and Shi'ite, and other smaller divisions.
You can compare Christianity as a whole with Islam as a whole.
You can't compare Islam as a whole with the single Christian sect of Catholicism, as Islam is broken into sects, and Catholics aren't.
So Catholicism is still the largest single denomination in the world, and Christianity as a whole is still larger then Islam as a whole.
@ MPA WOW, you're really pushing for Islam to be named the world's largest religion huh? Here's the jiff for the illogical to understand. Christianity as a WHOLE is bigger then Islam as a WHOLE. If you take denominations of each religion and look at them as religions in themselves, then Christianity (Catholicism) will STILL be the biggest religion. You can't lump ALL forms of Islam together and compare it with only ONE form Christianity. The Vatican was mistaken in looking at Islam as monolithic and without divisions, i.e. the SHIA, and others. If the Vatican gave themselves the same fair treatment to Islam in their comparison, they would realized they are the biggest, EITHER WAY. 71.126.110.131 ( talk) 16:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
According to wikipedia, and moreover the Oxford English Dictionary, it really depends on one's accepted definition of Catholicism. In theory, there can be different denominations and sects within Catholicism. Although, I do contend that this is merely an argument over semantics. 72.81.138.134 ( talk) 22:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Islam#Family_life states "The groom is required to pay a dowry (mahr) to the bride, as stipulated in the contract". Mahr is not dowry... since it's from the man to the woman. And it's not bride price because it's to the woman and not her parents. And it's not really dower since that has the implications of for after husband dies... but maybe that's the closest. In any case, we should come to agreement and also... the fact that dowry is used makes me wonder how applicable the sources really are. Do they sources say dowry? I hope not. gren グレン 10:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Sufi umar ( talk) 08:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)thegeniousumar== Creation ==
When Jibra'el the angel came to tell to Mohammad( SAWS) to preach ,the muslim era didn't start there but it started when Adam(A.S) was sent down to earth. According to the muslim calendar we are in the year 1386. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jedi952 (
talk •
contribs)
11:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to weigh in on the map situation. The new map, put up by Moshino, is much more intuitive than the one we had up previously. That's not to say that the old map was no good, but the gradient of greens from light to dark (low to high) makes more sense than arbitrary colors assigned to the different percentages. Another similar option would be to go between two colors in a gradient, like yellow and red, but I think this one is supurb. I'm going to revert back to Moshino's map and I'd like to hear a good argument for keeping the old one. Thanks. PelleSmith ( talk) 14:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Tahrif is a significant Islamic belief, but not significant enough to be in the lead. A more significant belief, that in the Day of Judgment, would be much better suited. We should also state Tawhid more explicitly (saying that Islam is monotheist is not enough). Bless sins ( talk) 22:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
A couple of nights ago, I readded the criticism section that had been agreed upon at FAC but it was removed. (I actually closed this at FAR and either missed that the section was gone or looked at a version that temporarily had it.)
The reverting edit summaries suggested that it had been incorporated into the rest of the article. I don't disapprove of moving criticism in general, and I think it's right (usually) to deprecate criticism sections. But looking now I don't see that anything has actually been reincorporated. The best I can find is the last paragraph of Modern times. There's no criticism there—it's a typical, badly done strawman + apologism paragraph. (Side note: which David Duke?!)
I know if someone comes along and demands criticism it might seem like they have an axe to grind. I don't think I've behaved that way with this article. I sung it's praises closing the FAR—but I missed this removal of information. I find it a little troubling, for instance, that the See also didn't take the link to the criticism article. I don't see reincorporation. Only removal. Marskell ( talk) 20:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Some feedback: I have an issue with using inherently unreliable citations, such as Spencer's/Warraq's works or the cite to FPM. Better alternatives such as Rippin's work or the NYT book review have been removed. So I don't agree with replacing good quality sources with poorer ones. You may have mistaken apologism for apologetics, but I disagree with your basic point. The version you inserted is much less balanced, as it includes ~5 claims, and a comment about fundamentalism; and essentially 1 counter claim, with a comment about Islamophobia. There's also an uninformative list of apologists (arguably as loaded as 'idealogues') tacked on at the end.
A much fairer balance is stuck in the prior version, where we have two critiques (which aren't straw men, else they wouldn't have remained in the current version either); a recognition that Muslim scholars contest these claims (not a response); a response from some academic scholars and a more informative comment about Islamophobia from Carl Ernst.
I don't intend to make any immediate changes, but I prefer the previous version with some tweaks (idealogues -> writers) and the inclusion of the sentence about fundamentalism. ITAQALLAH 15:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The article says that Muslims view Muhammad as the greatest prophet, this is untrue. According to hadith the Prophet Muhammad said to the Muslims never to say one prophet was better than another. So please change this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.45.241 ( talk) 15:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
"The Alevi, Yazidi, Druze, Ahmadiyya, Bábí, Bahá'í, Berghouata and Ha-Mim movements either emerged out of Islam or came to share certain beliefs with Islam. Some consider themselves separate while others still sects of Islam though controversial in certain beliefs with mainstream Muslims. Sikhism, founded by Guru Nanak in late fifteenth century Punjab, incorporates aspects of both Islam and Hinduism."
This paragraph is currently located under Denominations: Others but I think it would fit better under Islam and other religions. Oore ( talk) 01:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I think that the history is already told, and the history section should be converted to "Political History" or "History After Muhammad". Will someone change that section? -- Obaidz96 ( talk • contribs • count) 23:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
IS there any room for this topic here or should a new page be written. I ask as Indonesia is numerically the most populous Muslim nation- and there is much variety and discussion within Indonesia about Islam. Starstylers ( talk) 13:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Seeing that my edit replacing the word "religion" with and internal link to the article on "Deen" (the word muslims and the Koran use to describe Islam) has been reverted by Jet, I felt it appropriate to bring this up on the talk page instead of reverting his revert. Islam is regarded by Muslims as a deen (way of life) and not a mere religion. Seeing that the Koran also uses this word instead of the arabic word for relgion, I think it is appropriate that in internal link be provided to "deen" so that a reader can understand both sides of the issue. Mushoo ( talk) 05:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
"Deen" is Arabic for religious faith. It is just as likely to be used by Christian and Jewish Arabs (which I witnessed) as Muslim Arabs. I am very confused as to your thinking as all religions - and even other personal belief systems i.e. Vegetarianism - are seen as ways of life. IMO, Islam can be as well described as Religious Faith/Way of life in any language as well as Arabic, though I must admitt my knowlede of Islam is not up to scratch. Pink Princess ( talk) 13:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
“ | In a chapter titled The special case of Islam, Smith - himself an Presbyterian and ordained minister in the United Church of Canada whose academic speciality was Islam - argues that The Prophet would have been, above all others perhaps, deeply alarmed at any suggestion that he was starting a new religion. Indeed, Smith points out, Arabic, strictly speaking, doesn't even have a word for religion in the European sense: the word din, customarily translated as such, significantly differs in a number of important respects. | ” |
Talk page has been semi-protected for 48 hours given graffiti. Marskell ( talk) 17:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm surprised by the lack of allusions to unorthodox Islamic sects. No allusions to the Druze, Ahmadiyah, Ansariyah...It's non-scientific to repudiate those branches of Islam, only because they are opposite to the Islamic orthodoxy. And, certainly, leaves an impression of pro-political correctness bias.
With all respect, nomen est omen, as Latin adagio goes. "Other religions". It's assumed they are marginal, instead of studying with Sunnism, or Shiism. Anyway, I think this matter is very controversial, and therefore, difficult to treat it adequately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.128.75.213 ( talk) 18:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Ive heard Islam is the world's largest religion So I checked on the Internet and it says it's true check for your self if you don't beleive me. I was still wondering and I don think it's true so I am going to ask if it's true from you guys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.84.93 ( talk) 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps to give a more detailed answer- for arguments sake. Islam covers around 21.01% of the world population. This however is split into the denominations of Sunni, Shi'a, Sufism, and Kharijites. Christianity is makes up about 33.32% it however is split up into allot of denominations.
So,
Christianity- 33.2% (1.9 billion)
Islam-22.01% (1.1 billion)
Thus, Christianity is the worlds largest Religion and Roman Catholicism remains the worlds largest Religious Denomination. Gavin Scott ( talk) 02:57, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Christianity has 1.9 billion adherents. Islam has 1.1 billion. The Roman Catholic denomination has around 1 billion adherents. The Sunni denomination (Islam's largest) claims about 85% of Islam's 1.1 billion followers. Thus Roman Catholicism is still a largest denomination than Sunni. Gavin Scott ( talk) 17:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is 5 pilars of islam are not accuratly represented here? Giving wrong and inaccurate information on this site will damage the credibility of this site —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.98.89 ( talk) 07:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
The section on Jihad is not only extremely inaccurate but also offensive. Jihad is the 'internal struggle against temptation'. What the hell happened to that belief which is held by virtually all muslims, and why is the belief of a few violent lunatics is represented more here. This is common sense and I don't think sources are necessary for it, but I'll try gathering some if I have time if there's any opposition. I'll attempt changing the wording slightly if there's no objections. Pink Princess ( talk) 18:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Peter Deer, I'll read it again tomorrow and get back to you mate. Be Happy, WTF you mean warfare is a beduins national sport? Are you implying Beduins are bloodthirsy loons or are warmongerers, as that is very insulting and shows the ignorance of such a idiot. Look at most wars today, who is starting them for their own greed you bigot. Pink Princess ( talk) 01:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, Be Happy, I misunderstood you, but saying war to them is a national sport was very misleading and gives the impression I got which does not seem to be what you intended to. I appologise for my harsh langauge, I agree totally that unfortunately a lot of Beduin Arab pre-Islamic culture which was at that time violent, was wrongfully kept in Islam. However, this shold be highlighted in the article so to prevent it being taken as being a true part of Islamic teachings. And Tourskin, what are you implying? Lastly, I keep my objections to the Jihad section, I read it again, and it still remains to represent the minority twisted view of the radicals and not at all mainstream Islam. Also it almost excuses misinterpretaions and wrong interpretations of Jihad, by stating 'It is commonly taken as the military form', or something similar. I hope you all understand this is a wrong interpretation - especially one born from anti-Islam loons after the 'War on Terror'.
True Jihad is internal struggle against evil - yes Islam does have rule for defensive warfare, and sanctions it in some cases, but that is not at all Jihad. Also Islam never allows wars and violence to spread Islam or for expansionism, though this was used by Muslim Missionaries in practice - much like those of virtually all other religions including Christianity.
Unfortunately now I am very bussy (still) - the more university forms I fill in and send, the more come through the post, and they need me to do research on the internet to understand and of the crap on them. Also I need to pass my driving test. :( So I'd appreciate if someoe can try and find some sources for true Jihad so it can get edited and corrected, and PM me to let me know, as I wont come here for a while. Many thanks in advance. Pink Princess ( talk) 21:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Tourskin, I clearly said that despite what people have excused in history - much like the bloodbaths you fanatic Christians have caused, it does not represent the original teaching you idiot - but hey, reading your page I should guess you'd enjoy anything that slants Islam into a bad like you anti-Islamic racist prick. And when since terrorists or History represented Islam or any other religion - do the missionaries who offer food and aid to the poor, taking advantage of their situation represent Christianity, because I never see that in the Christianity section, nor the massacres carried out to spread that religion, or most others. Religion is scripture and majority opinion - none of those are whats represented in that section in my opinion. Majority opinion and Scripture says Jihad has nothing to do with warfare, and that is what must be represented first and foremost - not the opinions of a few extremists brainwashed or tricked, nor the racist anti-Islam, hate-mongering bigots like Tourskin who seem to want to slander everyone else without looking at themselves. Like I said, I don't have time to keep coming here and search for sources. I created this section specifically to appeal for others lucky enough to have more time on their hands to find such sources, and PM me so I can try putting an arguement forwards at some time.
And Merzbow, thanks but only because it was present on Wikipedia first, does not at all mean that it is in any way superior or truth as per the 'Wiki-Elitest' attitudes. As long as we have people who know nothing about Islam, nor have anything to do with it but to further their own hate-mongering political agendas - wether that be the terrorist loons or extremist Christian racists and hatemongerers like Tourskin - whatever is written here will have a clear bias no matter how strict the many rules here are - but nothing's completely unbiased in the world. I'll try reading the sources when I get time - writing all this is surprisingly much less time consuming than reading all the sources ;) . Thanks again for the advice.
I'll try convince my local Imam to come here with religious, rather than historic sources which this seems to be mainly based on, to correct this. In the meantime I want this section primarily for new sources of Jihad to represent that opinion rather than discussion - a request for help rather than discussion as I have no time to search the whole archives of the internet. I don't know what the wiki policy is on that or what I should do to ask for help in terms of sources here. Should I delete all this discussion and simply put a notice for help on sources to support that or what? Unfortunately even if I get sources I wont be able to come here for some time. Pink Princess ( talk) 23:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you guys think it would be a good idea to contrast the Qur'anic view of Jihad and of warfare with the way Muslims have historically approached it, using the Encyclopedia of the Qur'an articles on Jihad and Warfare? -- Be happy!! ( talk) 00:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the balance that has previously been agreed upon is a fair one. Jihad in Islamic legal discourse refers primarily to military combat. In more ascetic, spiritual tracts it assumes the meaning of striving against sin or internal evils - or self purification. As far as I remember (although I haven't checked the section recently), the section does maintain a balance between these two aspects. ITAQALLAH 13:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Tourskin, like I said many times before, the current Islamic Jihad is used as a military/political tactic against the sometime's equally harsh foriegn policies of the mainly Christian West towards third-world Muslim countries. I'm sure if the West was Muslim - Islamic terrorist would be totally obscilete, so we'll get Arab/Central Asian terrorism instead. Be Happy, I think that would be a great idea, so to shut some of those fanatics and bigots up who claim Islam is a religion of war more so than others, and teaches hate to everything West - for political motives. Tourskin, I agree with you there for once, but I'll continue to find sources that represent Jihad to what I was bought up to believe it is, and I believe/hope most muslims will agree to that rather than Itaqallah's and the section's views of it being also/more military based. But it'll probably take me some time - as answering these has taken most my PC time today. Pink Princess ( talk) 16:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
1. Oh you who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Q.9:123) 2. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off. (Q.8:12) 3. Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him. (Q.3:85) 4. Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. (Q.9:5) 5. Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out. (Q.2:191) 6. Fight them on until there is no more dissension and religion becomes that of Allâh. (Q.9:193) 7. Fight them, and Allâh will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Q.9:14) 8. Make no excuses: you have rejected Faith after you had accepted it. If we pardon some of you, we will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin. (Q.9:66) 9. You who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbelievers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the grand mosque at Mecca) after this year. (Q.9:28) 10. Fight those who do not believe in Allâh and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior. (Q.9:29)
These excerpts are taken from the Koran itself; I don't see how this leaves much 'wiggle room' for tolerance in modern Islam unless followers have decided to ignore sections of their holy text, and Jihad would seem inevitable to me. Mjackso6 ( talk) 01:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Das Kapital? Lol. Gabr- el 01:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Unless someone can fins a reliable source (print, direct from the Quran, etc.) for the following 'interpretation':
Within Islamic jurisprudence, jihad is usually taken to mean military exertion against non-Muslim combatants in the defense or expansion of the Islamic state, the ultimate purpose of which is to universalize Islam.
then I will go ahead and delete it. Unless it can be supported as reliable information (not just POV), then it should not be on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Socrates42 ( talk • contribs) 00:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Re-added the section removed by Socrates42. The reference seems to be pretty well supported by the immediately following sentence: "Jihad... may be declared against... non-Islamic leaders or states which refuse to submit to the authority of Islam." Sounds pretty straightforward. RavShimon ( talk) 01:31, 4 February 2009 (UTC)RavShimon
...The Arabic word for surrender without the connotation of peace is "Har-ram". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.190.59 ( talk) 07:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
you are wrong it means 'Submission To The Will Of Allah' check it out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.156.156 ( talk) 14:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Just today reverted an edit claiming that "peace" was the meaning of the root S-L-M. This would be the place to substantiate this. LUbunkerman ( talk) 01:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
There needs to be a separate sub-section regarding the 1150-1400 period (period between Abbasids & Turks), that should include Mongol invasion, Crusades & Reconquista. The after effects should also be discussed in 2-3 sentences, the intellectual stagnancy & defensive introvertism that followed grand scale library burnings & massacres. It was the most cataclysmic period in Islamic history. The text is there, but it seems very unimportant in the way it exists right now.
Similarly we need to have a European colonization sub-section (1700-1950), & its aftereffects including reactionary extremism (Maududi, Qutb, Banna etc).
Farhansher ( talk) 08:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Made some improvements in history section, feel free to discuss more changes that need to be made Asdf169 ( talk) 19:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Woah woah, not necessarily, lets begin from the start, instead of reverting all the changes. the first section 'Rise of Caliphates' should have mention of the islamic civil wars in the title which it mentions in the subsection, a link to 'Battle of Karbala' should be there clearly. the second section 'islamic golden age' should give mention to Muslim Agricultural Revolution, which isnt given mention later on, No idea why the 'Crusades, Reconquista and Mongol invasion' section was reverted, i thought it made the article more clearer. The empire section should have mention of Safavid Iran, due to many many reasons, which are very clear.
Lastly the 'Modern', no idea why >>
<< shouldnt be there, as little mention is given towards this in the article.
To summarise, as you should know Islam has a vast history, and links should be given to help people (who may not be knowledgeable of Islam as you are) to help them learn etc etc. i will revert the changes and if you wish to remove one or two links which you dont feel are relevant, be my guest, but please do not revert all the changes I made. Thank you. Asdf169 ( talk) 21:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply and thanks for the cleanup. changes have improved the section Asdf169 ( talk) 12:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
hello, what is actually said about alcohol consumption, in 13th warrior he said only not by grain and by grapes. Therefore he could drink alcohol made from honey. Is that correct? Please help Mallerd ( talk) 17:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
What a minute? What do you mean the people didn't know about alcohol from grain? It was introduced into the region 4,000 years ago. Islam can't be that old. ( Spookybubbles ( talk) 21:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC))
I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgeable than myself could have a look at Talk:Black Stone#Hindu view and this edit, which an anonymous IP editor has repeatedly been adding. Essentially the editor is claiming that the Ka'aba in Macca was originally a Hindu temple (!) and is citing an apparently fringe scholar in support of that claim. I've had a look at the sourcing, which seems to be very thin indeed; some second opinions would be useful. -- ChrisO ( talk) 12:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about the temple, but I did hear the Black Stone was the center piece for religions in the area long before Islam, although if it was Hindu, or Jewish, or pagan, or Nabataean, or simply related to some odd jinn or another I have no idea. ( Spookybubbles ( talk) 21:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)_
A couple of questions about Islam have been asked on the humanities reference desk. It would be great if some editors knowledgeable about Islam could pop over there and answer them. Thanks. Itsmejudith ( talk) 15:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Within Judaism, you're considered jewish if your mother is jewish, or that's how I remember it in any case. Within Islam, are you considered a member of the faith if your father is muslim? If your mother is muslim? If either is muslim? And is the rule a hard-and-fast kinda thing, or does it possibly vary from country to country?-- Mr Bucket ( talk) 04:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
From a more Muslim perspective (me),
Any questions? Lord of Moria (Avicenna) Talk Contribs 15:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This thread does not relate directly to work on the article; the conversation is best taken to a non-wiki venue. Article talk pages are not for general discourse on the the topic of the article, but a tool for editing collaboration. If you would like to see an area developed, you may initiate the process by making your recommendations here: the result will just as often answer your query AND result in development of the article. Mavigogun ( talk) 04:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't think having an image of the Taj Mahal as the standard image for all the Islam pages is a good idea. The Kabba would have been more suitable as it's the Islamic first and main mosque. The Taj Mahal is not a religious structure, just an architectural aspect of the Mughal Empire and not a place of worship as it's a mausoleum (glorified tombstone for a grave). it also steretypes, suggesting an 'Indian' landmark is in some way a major part of the world faith and it isn't. It's irrelevant and misleading and should be replaced with the Kaaba or Qu'ran etc. Thanks.
80.249.48.115 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 15:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that the Naqshbandi article does not cite any sources. There seems to have been some edit warring too, and I suspect that if future additions to the article were based only on reliable sources that some of that problem would be reduced. (My own knowledge of Sufism is so slight I would not attempt to edit such an article.)
Now that I think of it, the much larger Islamic art article also has very little sourcing. It seems to be an excellent article, but if some knowledgeable editors could add sources it would be a good act for an important article. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 23:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
"The Qur'an in its present form is often considered by academic scholars to record the words spoken by Muhammad because the search for variants in Western academia has not yielded any differences of great significance and that historically controversy over the content of the Qur'an has never become a main point." First, this is an ungrammatical snake and needs to be chopped in two.
A larger concern is that it's extremely simplistic. It takes the question of authorship as the sole point of academic interest in the content of the Qur'an. (It also has a kind of "everything fine here, move along" quality.) Questions of self-consistency are equally important. Shifts in emphasis over the course Muhammad's life have been noted (e.g that verses from the Medina period are the more violent is a widely made point.) Marskell ( talk) 15:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Moving it, with the refs:
{{ editsemiprotected}} I don't see the text in the source, but the text printed under the "pronunciation" heading is inappropriate. I suspect this article has been vandalized. Maybe an established user will kjnow how to correct this? Bulkley bouncer ( talk) 01:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The sentence "Muhammad (c. 570 – June 8, 632) was an Arab religious, political, and military leader who founded the religion of Islam as a historical phenomenon."' is confusing. It seems to guess at Muhammad's intentions. There was no way of knowing that the religion would become the 'historical phenomenon' that we know now. So, I am proposing to remove 'as a historical phenomenon".
Also, there has been an obscenity in the first line of the article for many hours. I'm a new user and I don't know how to edit a 'semi-protected' article, so any help is appreciated.—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Patrick poloney (
talk •
contribs)
04:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia, Patrick. If you're registered, I do believe you have to wait four days or so before being able to edit semi-protected articles. Also, the article seems to have been cleaned up, so no worries (for now) Nautical Mongoose ( talk) 05:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody think creating a section on muslim interaction with the non-muslim world would be useful? I think it would be a more elegant way of incorporating the criticisms section, may be an oportunity to clean up the history section in general, as well. Also, I think a lot of people who are searching for information on Islam might like to know more about it as a factor in shaping world events. Subjects covered might include: Islamic stances on interaction with non-muslims and how this affects the foreign policy of Islamic states, Islamic interaction with other major religions, Islamic proselytization throughout the world, prominent muslims in non-muslim society, tension and conflict with non-muslims. Well, just an idea, shoot it down if it stinks, and by the way, great article, thanks to the editors for a good read. Spampan ( talk) 00:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
The link for Moses in Articles of faith section in line (The Qur'an mentions the names of numerous figures considered prophets in Islam, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, among others) should be changed from Musa [8] to Moses [9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.123.180.146 ( talk) 09:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
User:AAA765 removed the following section writing in edit summary: "to last version by Itaqallah. unsourced or unscholarly":
Pascal Bruckner and Paul Berman on the other hand have entered the "Islam in Europe" debate. Berman identifies a "reactionary turn in the intellectual world" represented by Western scholars who idealize Islam. [3]
Since it's both sourced and scholarly I am re-adding it. — Cesar Tort 06:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I honestly can say I can look at this article and say that none of this whatsoever describes my beliefs, and the beliefs of at least over 30 million Muslims, counting the Ismaili, the Alevi, and a myriad of other Sufi and Shi'a groups. I stayed away from article for a long time, but now I'd like to work with everyone for changes.
Before I start, the Sunni opinion and Twelver opinion, which are nearly synonymous, should be the most prominent. However, the batini point of view does make up a significant amount of followers of Islam. I am going to use this analogy to help us through this: batini groups in their population are a little more than the same percentage Mormons make up in Christianity. We can use how that was dealt with in their article, however, unlike Mormonism, these groups appeared very early on in Islam, and hence are a little more important in its overall discussion, which includes both historical and contemporary perspectives. In Nizari Ismailism, shariah was declared void not too long after Nizar's son escaped to Alamut. And of course, let's not forget the Sufi groups, and the Qizilbash] forerunners to Alevism, all of which predate the current Usuli school of Twelver Shi'a Islam.
In accordance with the Islamic belief in
predestination...
No Shi'a group I know of believes in predestination. Yes, Allah knows what will happen, but he has not written anything and nothing is set at all, even the return of al-Mahdi is subject to change in Shi'a thought.
The Shi'a understanding of predestination is called "divine justice" (Adalah).
Is there anywhere you can find Adalah described as predestination? How reliable is this source? Adalah, and the Shi'a belief in general, is called the point between two extremes, ie, God knows what will happen but he does not cause it to happen. This is generally termed as a type of free will philosophy-wise.
Some Sufi and Shi'a groups believe these practices are symbolic and metaphorical, and in a minority of cases do not physically practice them.
This is very important. Anyone who reads this article will get the incorrect notion that the meaning of being a practicing Muslim is to pray, fast, and do these literal activities. This isn't so, and many groups that even parkate in these activities, do concentrate on the inner meanings.
...or ritual prayer, which Sunni perform five times a day, though most Shi'a groups such as the Twelver combine the five separate prayers into three times a day, while other Shi'a groups such as the Nizari have only three prayers. For most Muslims, each salah is done facing towards the Kaaba in Mecca.
First off, Twelver (and I think Zaidi) are the ones that combine five prayers into three times a day. Not all Shi'a, one should not use Shi'a to just describe the Twelver branch. Second, it is notable to note that some groups such as the Nizari, really only pray three times a day, not just combine five prayers. Also, Alevi and Nizari do not face Mecca in their prayers. And lastly, there have been quite a few groups in history that have changed the liturgical language in Islam, such as the living Alevi. Abu Hanifa in fact allowed one to recite their prayer in their native toungue, though his students later disagreed with this position.
Some Muslim groups do not fast during Ramadan, and instead have fasts different times of the year.
Once again, among the aforementioned groups, fasting during Ramadan is practically non-existent. In general you still do have fasting, but it is at different times of the year.
The Ismaili exclude khumms and only add three pillars to the five, which are Guardianship, Purity, and Inner Struggle.
Why do we have the Twelver pillars but not the Ismaili? It seems odd, since it is nonetheless a prominent grouping in Shi'a Islam.
- Mainstream Islamic law does not distinguish between "matters of church" and "matters of state"; the ulema function as both jurists and theologians. In practice, Islamic rulers frequently bypassed the Sharia courts with a parallel system of so-called "Grievance courts" over which they had sole control. As the Muslim world came into contact with Western secular ideals, Muslim societies responded in different ways. Turkey has been governed as a secular state ever since the reforms of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, which has been greatly supported by the Shi'a Alevi population. In contrast, the 1979 Iranian Revolution replaced a mostly secular regime with an Islamic republic led by the Ayatollah Khomeini.
Mainstream is important, not all Muslims, even traditional groups, believe that shariah is unseperable from state. In fact until recently, the Twelver advocated a separation of church and state, though one might argue that it was only a temporary measure during The Occultation. Also, I tied in the previous themes by noting that the Shi'a Alevi group were among the biggest supporters of secularism in Turkey, which is I believe a very important fact to complete the mosaic of Islamic beliefs.
Once again, let me make it clear. This edits are a few sentences and words. I don't want them to have an overly prominent place in the article, they are by far fringe views. But, over 30 million is not a small number, that is twice the amount of followers of Judaism in the entire world. And historically it has been witnessed as a movement Islam for a long period of time. It deserves its place in this article, definitely. -- Enzuru 18:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I went through it again, and it seemed we had the same concerns. So, what I basically did was moved statements of contention to where the issue was first introduced, and deleted lots of blanket statements (Shi'a believe ______, these statements were often almost exclusive to Usuli Twelver Shi'a). All in all, I think it makes the article cleaner without having a parenthesis in every pillar ascribing not only a Shi'a view, but a false one that not all Shi'a groups believe in. I toned down the language in those pillars as well, so as of right now, it seems pretty good. I'll tweak it as I go along. Here is the idea:
I think this should all be fair, I think Itaqallah was right about the minimalist approach we should take, and in fact, by balancing the view I actually made the entire section smaller, which is good and shows that it was extraneous material and not the lack of material that was creating issues. There is still maybe a little more to do... but looking nice so far. Please give some feedback before further changes. -- Enzuru 05:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Enruzu, Isma'ili net is a sub par forum to receive information regarding Isma'ilism. I would stick to academic publications. The current Imam has repeatedly state that he is not a living God, and that it is contradictory to his faith. There are broad areas of agreement between Isma'ili and Twelver, as both decend fro the Imami or Jaf'ari Madhab, although the application differs, the theology is remains the same.( Water Stirs ( talk) 07:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC))
If one looks at the tawhid mentioned in the article, it seems inaccurate. Being a muslim, I can tell you that the correct translation of, "La ilahi-il-Allah.........muhammad-ur rasool-allah" is, "Allah is the only God and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is his prophet." I hope someone can correct it since the page is locked.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
I came to this article looking for information on:
These all seem to be topics of some note or significance, but this article (or its siblings, as far as I can tell) was not helpful or enlightening. Is there another family of articles I should be looking at? ~ Amatulić ( talk) 23:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
( Mohamedfakh ( talk) 02:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC))in islam it is to submit that there is "NO GOD BUT ALLAH ANS MUHAMMED IS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH because in the article it is written "NO GOD BUT GOD
None worthy of worship but Allah and Mohammed is His messenger.
What "god"? please change this the word "god" is degrading Allah is Incomparably Great.
The word "god" is comparable "gods" "goddess" "godfather" "god mother" etc... it has gender and Allah is not male nor female.
There's none like Him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.202.5.104 ( talk) 14:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I note that the Shahada plaque was switched with the Salah pic as the lead image. I'd much prefer the latter personally (and that was the chosen img last time this topic was debated). ITAQALLAH 16:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Is it supposed to be pronounced like IZlum or is it EESlum or EYEslam or what? Also, could I learn about iSlam from an iMam on my iPod and talk about it on my iPhone? -- 137.186.233.134 ( talk) 23:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I recommend replacing the text:
The year 1428 AH coincides almost completely with 2007 CE.
, which appears under "Calendar," with:
The year 1430 AH began on December 29, 2008 CE.
Expo1892 ( talk) 11:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
207.250.168.69 (
talk)
19:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Salam hi
I think the First pillar, Shahadah has been written phonetically not correctly perhaps, it should be: Lā ilaha illa al-Lāh, Muhammadun rasūlu l-Lāh
This is correct on the seperate wiki for the Shahadah but not for the Islam one.
Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uf007uf ( talk • contribs) 22:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Just wanted to report these unsourced, rather inflammatory articles about sex in Islam. I dont think their is any need of these kinds of articles either. Islamic view of anal sex, Oral sex in Islamic law —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.30.106.232 ( talk) 10:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi to everyone,
I was thinking about
hyperlinking "
7th century" in the
Islam article, but then it looks a bit like
overlinking too.
On the other hand placing the birth of
Islam in the right chronological context could help wikipedians understand better
world history.
What do you think about it?
Thanks for your attention in reading me.
Maurice Carbonaro (
talk)
12:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
First of all I'd like to say that Wikipedia is a very resourceful website.Alot of people,especially me, browse this website for research work that help make good reports and papers. The subject name that I have given has two reasons: 1) Islam as with any other religion deserves repect, so the Prophets' or any name of Religious Books should be addressed with respect.For example: Instead of 'Quran' it SHOULD BE 'The Holy Quran' And above all our Prophet Muhammed Sallallaho'alihe Wasallam deserves the UTMOST RESPECT when he is mentioned or addressed in any sentence or anywhere for that matter.So instead of 'Muhammed' it SHOULD BE 'Muhammed Peace be Upon Him.' 2) In the case of Islam God is used for the arabic word ALLAH.Here what I would like to point out is that God has a gender and an opposite which is Goddess whereas ALLAH has no gender and absolutely no opposite. Again what I am trying to rectify, hopfully,is that I as with any sound religion practicing person/individual would like this to be rectified as soon as possible, please. I hope I have not offened anyone but keep hope that Wikipedia will do everything within its powers to rectify these honest mistakes. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.50.26.18 ( talk) 22:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
The name Allah is a more respectful name to the lord then just saying gos. god has no meaning to it. In Islam the name Allah is a more praiseworthy name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moej290 ( talk • contribs) 20:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I notice Judaism says "In modern Judaism, central authority is not vested in any single person or body, but in sacred texts, religious law, and learned Rabbis who interpret those texts and laws." Is Islam similar in these respects? Also are there organizations corresponding the Christian churches (eg. Roman Catholic hierarchy). If not, who builds those vast and lavish Mosques. Don't the owners get to pick the preacher? (Just a common-sense question, we are supposed to apply common-sense.) Fourtildas ( talk) 19:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I see no mention of Alevism on the page about Islam. I think it should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.21.191 ( talk) 00:09, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
You have now read this page and now you owe me 750,000,000 POUNDS! Every day late it goes up 250,000,000 more POUNDS!!!!! Remember to pay me or else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank You!!!!:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.32.36 ( talk) 18:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
that is a mis representation as all references in the quran to killing and violence are in regards to ENTIRE COMMUNITIES fighting and the proper muslim response, the muslim god does not ADVOCATE VIOLENCE, in fact numerous references can be cited in which it states that disbelievers who are not oppresive or aggresive and who you have signd peace treaties with should be respected. i dont have alot of time right now but just off the top of my head sura 9 verse 4.
in response to below
Schulte123 ( talk) 02:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
shouldn't it be put somewhere that Islam is a very violent religion? (if you are an orthodox muslim) The Quran and the rest of the writings from Muhammed do say that if you refuse to become a muslim, you should be killed, and the killer will go to heaven. Also, somewhere there should be a section that talks about how the terrorists of 9-11 were muslims...? It's just an idea, thought I might ask...thanks!
This article is based on Sunni Islam and is not neutral. 99.247.0.42 ( talk) 00:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
the mention of the sunnah ( muhammeds life and works ), should actually be listed under seperate sects of this religion and any mentioning of other than god ALONE is considerd blashpemy and idol worship by muslims who have copies of the true quran as revealed rashad khalifa.
comments?
Schulte123 ( talk) 02:05, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
salam
I am trying to contribute to a couple of articles and want a better understanding of how to organise references nicely. I see that some articles have a section for notes and another section for references, and it allows for brief citations mentioning author's last name, year of publication of the book, and page number in the notes section that one can check in the references section for full title, author's name, etc. Is there anyone here who can help me to understand how to organise references into these two handy lists? Thank you.
PinkWorld (
talk)
14:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)Pink
Hello, I wanted to first thank the people who dedicated time and effort in setting this page up (excuse my english, it is a second language). I was wondering why Shia muslims in Pakistan are not represented in the "Map showing distribution of Shia and Sunni Muslims in Africa, Asia and Europe". If i'm not mistaken, their population of 130 million people is divided between shia's and sunni's, considerably 65 million people ( https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html). If the map is not up to date, why would is it being used as a visual representation of shia sunni muslim populations.Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Much more should be said about the heterodox sects. Even the Ismailis are not give enough emphasis. I agree that a link to specialized article may be all that is needed but the current references are too off-hand. Sects which needed to named included the Alawites and the Bahai. A discussion of the political aspects of the Bahai and the Ahamadiya would be useful. Finally there should be something about the peripheral religuions like the Druse and the Yazidis. Again all that might be needed is a link. I am unsure about whether the Qur'an-only movement merits recognition as a sect. DKleinecke ( talk) 22:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I asked this on the talk page of Predestination in Islam, but I realized that many who would care about the changes I would make may not be watching that page and the best way to get feed-back would be to mention it here. I said, "It seems to me that a summary of the the major schools of thought and major thinkers should be added to this page. It seems to me that this would be the #1 most useful section in an article of this sort. I will await feedback before adding these myself." I have gathered some sources to make these additions, but these would constitute a fairly sizable edition so I wanted to make sure anyone who would oppose them has sufficient chance to make themselves heard. I am new to Wikipedia editing, so please correct me on any breaches of etiquette I may be committing. LUbunkerman ( talk) 01:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Islam is the name of religion but muslim means member of this religion -- Ozozcan ( talk) 21:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure I beat someone to this that has more authority to do it than me, but Cmmmm's additions were terribly unbalanced at best and slanderous at worst. I was going to appeal to him to revert or balance them, but to that I had to see his talk page which disabused me of any notion that he would do so. If there is any way to take it private by e-mailing him, I couldn't find it. As always, please correct me if I have over-stepped my bounds. LUbunkerman ( talk) 22:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe one "enjoys" being a second class citizen. Perehaps, "were allowed" instead.
"Historically, dhimmis enjoyed a measure of communal autonomy under their own religious leaders, but were subject to legal, social and religious restrictions meant to highlight their inferiority.[130]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Outlook2 ( talk • contribs) 05:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
First of all, this is good English. This is OED's meaning 4a:
But there is a nit that can be picked here, I suppose. Just make sure that the replacement phrasing is at least as good English. The intended meaning is that dhimmis had the "benefit" or "advantage" of certain privileges compared to other class systems where the underdogs often have no rights at all or compared to other non-Muslims in Muslim society, such as pagans and apostates, who were not so much without rights as actively persecuted. -- dab (𒁳) 08:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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Hajj is not a ritual. it says on the picture of hajj it is. It makes it seem like muslims take part is shamism or something.
The meaning of the word Ritual to many people means "Magic and Witchraft"
Please change —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.0.224.55 ( talk) 19:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
In the "Islam & other religions" box
It has Jainism and Sikhism; these are basically offshoots of Hindusim which pre-date the two.
Islam ought to be compared to major faiths, such as Christianity and Buddhism
The article is locked, but a citation for the missing one at the end of the first paragraph is at: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_muslims -- Jimbo42 ( talk) 21:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
This citation is not sufficient. The source is from the Vatican, not recognized as an authority on Islam by anybody but Catholics, and not even by all of them [correction: not even an official statement, an observation from a Vatican newspaper functionary]. The idea of Islam as "the largest denomination" is questionable on the face of it. First, Islam has denominations of it's own, and is not a denomination by itself. If it were, the word "denomination" would be meaningless in context. Second, denomination of what? Again, the label "denomination" would mark it as a smaller part of a larger religion, divided from others in the same religion by specific articles of faith or interpretation.
MathewGSmith (
talk)
18:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Islam is not a single denomination. There have for a long time been more Muslims that Catholics. Islam should be compared to Christianity in numbers, not Catholicism —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.180.105.55 ( talk) 21:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Not sure if this has been brought up before or not, but the main article for Islam contains more Shiite things than Sunni, so is there any way we can clean/discuss this? Thanks DevilAsh Talk! 19:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
from alsadi: I Agreed with that because according to all statistics Sunnies are more than 90% (refer to the fact book) it's like having to mention the communist party in the front article about USA as a major party in USA during the cold war! the problem with this approach is that it ignores many facts like that Shiites are only found on far places where people don't speak Arabic like Iran I was shocked with many articles here about Islam. PS: Shiites have an organized ways to do vandalism on wikipedia as they pay Khums to fund that. Please In any Islamic related article one should ask about valid citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mydalsadi ( talk • contribs) 22:26, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
From Pink: I feel that the article for Islam should be much more general, while containing references or links to sections/articles that explain the viewpoints of the major sects (Sunni, Shia, etc.). For example, the "Five Pillars" is treated as if it were common to Shia and Sunni Islam, whereas Shia Islam has its own listing of its beliefs ("Usul ad-Din," 5) and its practises ("Furu' ad-Din," 10). Sunni Islam has the Five Pillars as a reference to core Sunni Islamic practises and also the Articles of Faith (6) in reference to its belief. Perhaps a brief treatment could be made of core Islamic beliefs and practises: 1) Belief in Allah 2) Belief in Prophet Muhammad 3) Belief in the Hereafter; 1) Salah 2) Zakat ("Charity" -> Zakat only for Sunni Muslims, Zakat and Khums for Shia Muslims) and 3) Hajj. Afterward, reference could be made to those points that distinguish Sunni and Shia Islam. This kind of treatment should also take care of DevilAsh's concern, since many topics would contain a general explanation of an Islamic topoic and then divert to Shia, Sunni, and other Islamic sectarian distinctions after covering the generality of Islamic belief/practise/etc. Therefore, it would not seem to contain so many references that specified only the Shia Islamic viewpoint of various topics. 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 22:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Pink
Islam is not a new religion originating from teachings of Muhammad (PBUH) , its revival of teachings of Christ and Moses. Muslims believes in teachings of Christ and Moses and Quran - the Muslim holy book - is the revival of teachings of Bible. looking for citation to add this sentence to article introduction
usman 19:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Islam was predicted by pagan gods. and the birth of Muhammad (reincarnation of pagan god) kinda messed up. dates back millions of years or something like that -- Mohun ( talk) 22:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Not only in Bhavishya Purana its also mentioned in Atharaveda, Sama Veda, RigVed, Bhagawat Purana, Kalkis and goes on and on. I think the only refs to claim this would be actual pictures from these Vedas. im still working on it. i gatherd a lot of sources. and so far i can also say that the information you hear about Muhammad and Vedas are all true. i went through some books and the page numbers and chapters that articles listed about Muhammad in Vedas it all matches up so far. and futher goes into more detail. its going to take some time for me, the most i can tell you is that these website that claim Muhammad in Vedas are not making stuff up and the page numbers and chapters seem to be proper. -- Mohun ( talk) 00:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
From Pink: As a conservative Muslim, I feel that it is easiest to treat Islam as its own religion when discussing it in an academic manner, rather than treating it as an original religion from which others branched. One problem in dealing with it as an original and ancient religion is that those qualities that distinguish it from other religions would have to undergo development in academic treatments. For example, the requirement for salat was different under Prophet Moses than under Prophet Muhammad, and it is alsmost certain that the various postures and recitations that comrpise salat have changed over the millenia. In addition, requirements for charitable contribution, pilgrimage, funeral processes, modesty, marriage, etc. have all changed over the millenia. Academically speaking, the primordial "Islam" is not recognisable. Furthermore, Muslims are taught that all are born on the natural path of monotheism - it is likely that this natural monotheism is what constituted the primordial religion of Prophet Adam and his family. It would simply be too confusing and require too much time, energy, and space to treat Islam as the religion that existed since the time of Adam. We Muslims have bigger fish to fry, anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 22:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 22:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC) Pink
In an encyclopedia, we strive to distinguish between fact and dogma. To take an example from another religion, the early Catholic church heavily edited the texts that became the new testament, but editing does not change the truth (or lack thereof) of the original text. Muslims may take comfort in believing that Islam precede Muhammad, but the fact is that he started the religion, and not a single human "practiced" Islam before him. Michael.Urban ( talk) 16:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
alSala'amu alaykum. Since most of our prophets are Hebrews and Aramaics, and looking over to the Qur'an, it is quite clear that modern Islam is a re-birth of a faith gone wrong, especially between the time of Eliyas and that of I'sa. I was hoping the "History of Islam" would make significant reference to the Israelites/Children of Israel before the Muhammadan era.
(84) And Moses said: "O my people! If you have believed in God, then put your trust in Him if you are Muslims". (85) Then they [the Israelites] said: "In God we put our trust. Our Lord! Make us not a trial for those who are disbelievers".
Thanks. Omar 180 ( talk) 22:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
This article makes the statement that a woman recieves half the inheritence a man does, but does not explain why. In Islam, a man is required to provide for his family, and any money he has must be used for the general good of his wife and children. He is also expected to care for elderly parents. A woman's money from any source, however, is hers and hers alone. She is not required to spend it on necessities such as food, adequate clothing, shelter, heat, oil, etc.
Please ensure that statments such as this are fully explained. The last thing we need is people using articles like this as "proof" of Islam's negativity toward women simply because they are not complete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biblebeltmuslimah ( talk • contribs) 18:43, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
NOTE : One source is the Book "Wemon rights system in Islam" (Nizam-e- Hoghugh-e-Zanan-Dar-Islam) which is written in Persian, by the famous clerick "Mortaza-Motahhari". You can look at it if you want to make sure. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
85.133.199.210 (
talk)
06:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
There are many devout Muslims who do not trust the authenticity of recorded ahadith and sunnah of Mohammed (pbuh). There are also many devout Muslims who, regardless of their authenticity or inauthenticity, believe that the Qur'an itself is complete (by its own statment, many many times within its pages) and that ahadith and sunnah are simply unnecessary. These beliefs are definitely worth mentioning, especially since questionable ahadith and sunnah have formed the backbone of many "Islamist" regimes.
Please include a section on these beliefs, as the number of believers who ascribe to them is growing. I will gladly provide any information and documentation that may prove helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biblebeltmuslimah ( talk • contribs) 18:50, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I understand that the Qur'an-only adherents are small in numbers, but that does not mean they are nonexistent. I have read the "Undue Weight" policy and it has caused me to lose some respect for Wikipedia. Failure to mention minority viewpoints after they have been brought to attention is dishonest and misrepresentative. Biblebeltmuslimah ( talk) 16:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Not only are the Quraniyoon extremely small as a sect, they have been summarily dismissed by nearly every other Islamic sect as infidel on the basis of their rejection of the use of the Prophetic Sunnah as a source of Islam. The rest of Muslims view this rejection as a rejection of Prophet Muhammad himself, which is unbelief in terms of Islam. 209.206.216.59 ( talk) 22:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC) Pink
In the sections for Al-Bukhari's Sahih Hadith and the Quran, you can include two photos that I have taken of the worlds first printed copies of them, these are extremely rare and I'm not sure if there are other photos of them on the internet. Photos are below in my Islamic History section, if they will be used I will take my watermarks off them so let me know.
[ Photos of Islamic History] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arshadhabib ( talk • contribs) 00:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I noticed when i type Muhammadan it redirects to Islam. Muhammadan refers to (Pagans) that are Hindus and Buddhists that were known as Muhammadans before Islam was created. Note, there was no name of Hindu or Buddhists that time they were known as Muhammadans beacause of the Muhammadan Dynasty that arrived in South Asia. Muhammadan shold be an article about the pagan clans that were with Muhammad and shared all rituals and also described in the sacred vedas by pagan religon. Later, it was already predicted by the sacred vedas that Muhammad will be born as a reincarnation of another god and would be the one to lead the pagans and goes on and on. So its better to redirect Muhammadan to Muhammad article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mohun ( talk • contribs) 22:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=muhammadan A Muhammadan is a follower of Muhammad. I'm curious if this means that Muhammadans follow only Muhammad's teachings and dismiss all the dogma that he had nothing to do with the creation of. Followers of Jesus Christ preach of following moral sincerity rather than strictly following religious ritual, so I think I see a comparison here. Also, as a random musing, if Muhammadans are followers of Muhammad that appeared before Islam was codified as it is today, wouldn't that make them a 'pure' form of followers? 74.67.17.22 ( talk) 03:00, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Why external links don't have eastern Muslims websits are nonMuslims afraid of the truth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.31.112.228 ( talk) 14:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not saying that western websits don't have the truth. Eastern sites have more info and has more members. There are many scholars for example see the site islam house. It has 74 languages in English there are alot of article audio books you will not stop learning from the site for years. Though every time I try to post this link the next page say spam i very good site for muslims and other to read as they like to understand is called a spam an no one can benefite from it. 2 April 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.30.159.86 ( talk) 14:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
"There are between 1.2 billion to 1.8 billion Muslims, making Islam the second-largest religion in the world after Christianity,[4] ---> but the largest single religious denomination.[5]"
What about Sunnis, Shi'a, Kharijites, etc? The article even has a section on denominations, so the above quote is clearly false hype. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.215.140.180 ( talk) 07:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
A denomination is a branch of a world religion so you can't really say "single denomination" it's just confusing also there in Islam one of the main reasons it's the largest growing religions is because when your'e born into a Muslim family you become a Muslim even though you may not follow the rules or lifestyle of a Muslim so a lot of the Islamic population is in fact made up of a lot of non Muslims really. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.200.162 ( talk) 14:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Islam is now the largest religion in the world as per a few days ago.
CaribDigita ( talk) 07:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
No it is not the largest religion in the world. Islam as a whole is now larger than one division of christianity: the catholics. This is including shi'a and Sunni muslims. 33-38% of the world's population follows christianity, whereas only 18% of the world are Muslims, so NOT the largest group or even division, as Catholicism is larger than Sunni Muslims without shi'a muslims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.154.181 ( talk) 19:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
islam has atleast 1.2 billion minimum this bs about islam being only a billion strong, is not true. The cia world factbook, council on american islamic relations, and the vatican all say so they seem like credible sources to me [with the possible exeption of the cia, but lets not make this a wmd fakeout discussion] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gvpggt ( talk • contribs) 03:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Here are the facts: there are 2 billion Christians in the world and between 1.1-1.9 billion Muslims in the world of all sects. Does that sort out the problem? LOTRrules ( talk) 19:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
ok look im getting tired of beating this to death, until u tell me why the cia, the vatican, and the councl on american islamic relations are all, no your claim that 1.1 to 1.9 does not settle it. How about you provide me with an link to your supposed facts as i will do now #REDIRECT [ [1]]
Islam, as a whole, Sunni and Shi'ite is now bigger than the single Christian sect of Catholicism. But not bigger than Christianity as a whole, which includes Protestantism, Orthodox, Catholicism, etc.
Islam I believe would not even qualify as the largest single sect in the world, because it is split into Sunni and Shi'ite, and other smaller divisions.
You can compare Christianity as a whole with Islam as a whole.
You can't compare Islam as a whole with the single Christian sect of Catholicism, as Islam is broken into sects, and Catholics aren't.
So Catholicism is still the largest single denomination in the world, and Christianity as a whole is still larger then Islam as a whole.
@ MPA WOW, you're really pushing for Islam to be named the world's largest religion huh? Here's the jiff for the illogical to understand. Christianity as a WHOLE is bigger then Islam as a WHOLE. If you take denominations of each religion and look at them as religions in themselves, then Christianity (Catholicism) will STILL be the biggest religion. You can't lump ALL forms of Islam together and compare it with only ONE form Christianity. The Vatican was mistaken in looking at Islam as monolithic and without divisions, i.e. the SHIA, and others. If the Vatican gave themselves the same fair treatment to Islam in their comparison, they would realized they are the biggest, EITHER WAY. 71.126.110.131 ( talk) 16:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
According to wikipedia, and moreover the Oxford English Dictionary, it really depends on one's accepted definition of Catholicism. In theory, there can be different denominations and sects within Catholicism. Although, I do contend that this is merely an argument over semantics. 72.81.138.134 ( talk) 22:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Islam#Family_life states "The groom is required to pay a dowry (mahr) to the bride, as stipulated in the contract". Mahr is not dowry... since it's from the man to the woman. And it's not bride price because it's to the woman and not her parents. And it's not really dower since that has the implications of for after husband dies... but maybe that's the closest. In any case, we should come to agreement and also... the fact that dowry is used makes me wonder how applicable the sources really are. Do they sources say dowry? I hope not. gren グレン 10:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Sufi umar ( talk) 08:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)thegeniousumar== Creation ==
When Jibra'el the angel came to tell to Mohammad( SAWS) to preach ,the muslim era didn't start there but it started when Adam(A.S) was sent down to earth. According to the muslim calendar we are in the year 1386. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Jedi952 (
talk •
contribs)
11:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to weigh in on the map situation. The new map, put up by Moshino, is much more intuitive than the one we had up previously. That's not to say that the old map was no good, but the gradient of greens from light to dark (low to high) makes more sense than arbitrary colors assigned to the different percentages. Another similar option would be to go between two colors in a gradient, like yellow and red, but I think this one is supurb. I'm going to revert back to Moshino's map and I'd like to hear a good argument for keeping the old one. Thanks. PelleSmith ( talk) 14:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Tahrif is a significant Islamic belief, but not significant enough to be in the lead. A more significant belief, that in the Day of Judgment, would be much better suited. We should also state Tawhid more explicitly (saying that Islam is monotheist is not enough). Bless sins ( talk) 22:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
A couple of nights ago, I readded the criticism section that had been agreed upon at FAC but it was removed. (I actually closed this at FAR and either missed that the section was gone or looked at a version that temporarily had it.)
The reverting edit summaries suggested that it had been incorporated into the rest of the article. I don't disapprove of moving criticism in general, and I think it's right (usually) to deprecate criticism sections. But looking now I don't see that anything has actually been reincorporated. The best I can find is the last paragraph of Modern times. There's no criticism there—it's a typical, badly done strawman + apologism paragraph. (Side note: which David Duke?!)
I know if someone comes along and demands criticism it might seem like they have an axe to grind. I don't think I've behaved that way with this article. I sung it's praises closing the FAR—but I missed this removal of information. I find it a little troubling, for instance, that the See also didn't take the link to the criticism article. I don't see reincorporation. Only removal. Marskell ( talk) 20:31, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Some feedback: I have an issue with using inherently unreliable citations, such as Spencer's/Warraq's works or the cite to FPM. Better alternatives such as Rippin's work or the NYT book review have been removed. So I don't agree with replacing good quality sources with poorer ones. You may have mistaken apologism for apologetics, but I disagree with your basic point. The version you inserted is much less balanced, as it includes ~5 claims, and a comment about fundamentalism; and essentially 1 counter claim, with a comment about Islamophobia. There's also an uninformative list of apologists (arguably as loaded as 'idealogues') tacked on at the end.
A much fairer balance is stuck in the prior version, where we have two critiques (which aren't straw men, else they wouldn't have remained in the current version either); a recognition that Muslim scholars contest these claims (not a response); a response from some academic scholars and a more informative comment about Islamophobia from Carl Ernst.
I don't intend to make any immediate changes, but I prefer the previous version with some tweaks (idealogues -> writers) and the inclusion of the sentence about fundamentalism. ITAQALLAH 15:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The article says that Muslims view Muhammad as the greatest prophet, this is untrue. According to hadith the Prophet Muhammad said to the Muslims never to say one prophet was better than another. So please change this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.45.241 ( talk) 15:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
"The Alevi, Yazidi, Druze, Ahmadiyya, Bábí, Bahá'í, Berghouata and Ha-Mim movements either emerged out of Islam or came to share certain beliefs with Islam. Some consider themselves separate while others still sects of Islam though controversial in certain beliefs with mainstream Muslims. Sikhism, founded by Guru Nanak in late fifteenth century Punjab, incorporates aspects of both Islam and Hinduism."
This paragraph is currently located under Denominations: Others but I think it would fit better under Islam and other religions. Oore ( talk) 01:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I think that the history is already told, and the history section should be converted to "Political History" or "History After Muhammad". Will someone change that section? -- Obaidz96 ( talk • contribs • count) 23:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
IS there any room for this topic here or should a new page be written. I ask as Indonesia is numerically the most populous Muslim nation- and there is much variety and discussion within Indonesia about Islam. Starstylers ( talk) 13:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Seeing that my edit replacing the word "religion" with and internal link to the article on "Deen" (the word muslims and the Koran use to describe Islam) has been reverted by Jet, I felt it appropriate to bring this up on the talk page instead of reverting his revert. Islam is regarded by Muslims as a deen (way of life) and not a mere religion. Seeing that the Koran also uses this word instead of the arabic word for relgion, I think it is appropriate that in internal link be provided to "deen" so that a reader can understand both sides of the issue. Mushoo ( talk) 05:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
"Deen" is Arabic for religious faith. It is just as likely to be used by Christian and Jewish Arabs (which I witnessed) as Muslim Arabs. I am very confused as to your thinking as all religions - and even other personal belief systems i.e. Vegetarianism - are seen as ways of life. IMO, Islam can be as well described as Religious Faith/Way of life in any language as well as Arabic, though I must admitt my knowlede of Islam is not up to scratch. Pink Princess ( talk) 13:42, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
“ | In a chapter titled The special case of Islam, Smith - himself an Presbyterian and ordained minister in the United Church of Canada whose academic speciality was Islam - argues that The Prophet would have been, above all others perhaps, deeply alarmed at any suggestion that he was starting a new religion. Indeed, Smith points out, Arabic, strictly speaking, doesn't even have a word for religion in the European sense: the word din, customarily translated as such, significantly differs in a number of important respects. | ” |
Talk page has been semi-protected for 48 hours given graffiti. Marskell ( talk) 17:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm surprised by the lack of allusions to unorthodox Islamic sects. No allusions to the Druze, Ahmadiyah, Ansariyah...It's non-scientific to repudiate those branches of Islam, only because they are opposite to the Islamic orthodoxy. And, certainly, leaves an impression of pro-political correctness bias.
With all respect, nomen est omen, as Latin adagio goes. "Other religions". It's assumed they are marginal, instead of studying with Sunnism, or Shiism. Anyway, I think this matter is very controversial, and therefore, difficult to treat it adequately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.128.75.213 ( talk) 18:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Ive heard Islam is the world's largest religion So I checked on the Internet and it says it's true check for your self if you don't beleive me. I was still wondering and I don think it's true so I am going to ask if it's true from you guys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.84.93 ( talk) 22:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps to give a more detailed answer- for arguments sake. Islam covers around 21.01% of the world population. This however is split into the denominations of Sunni, Shi'a, Sufism, and Kharijites. Christianity is makes up about 33.32% it however is split up into allot of denominations.
So,
Christianity- 33.2% (1.9 billion)
Islam-22.01% (1.1 billion)
Thus, Christianity is the worlds largest Religion and Roman Catholicism remains the worlds largest Religious Denomination. Gavin Scott ( talk) 02:57, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Christianity has 1.9 billion adherents. Islam has 1.1 billion. The Roman Catholic denomination has around 1 billion adherents. The Sunni denomination (Islam's largest) claims about 85% of Islam's 1.1 billion followers. Thus Roman Catholicism is still a largest denomination than Sunni. Gavin Scott ( talk) 17:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Why is 5 pilars of islam are not accuratly represented here? Giving wrong and inaccurate information on this site will damage the credibility of this site —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.6.98.89 ( talk) 07:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
The section on Jihad is not only extremely inaccurate but also offensive. Jihad is the 'internal struggle against temptation'. What the hell happened to that belief which is held by virtually all muslims, and why is the belief of a few violent lunatics is represented more here. This is common sense and I don't think sources are necessary for it, but I'll try gathering some if I have time if there's any opposition. I'll attempt changing the wording slightly if there's no objections. Pink Princess ( talk) 18:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Peter Deer, I'll read it again tomorrow and get back to you mate. Be Happy, WTF you mean warfare is a beduins national sport? Are you implying Beduins are bloodthirsy loons or are warmongerers, as that is very insulting and shows the ignorance of such a idiot. Look at most wars today, who is starting them for their own greed you bigot. Pink Princess ( talk) 01:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, Be Happy, I misunderstood you, but saying war to them is a national sport was very misleading and gives the impression I got which does not seem to be what you intended to. I appologise for my harsh langauge, I agree totally that unfortunately a lot of Beduin Arab pre-Islamic culture which was at that time violent, was wrongfully kept in Islam. However, this shold be highlighted in the article so to prevent it being taken as being a true part of Islamic teachings. And Tourskin, what are you implying? Lastly, I keep my objections to the Jihad section, I read it again, and it still remains to represent the minority twisted view of the radicals and not at all mainstream Islam. Also it almost excuses misinterpretaions and wrong interpretations of Jihad, by stating 'It is commonly taken as the military form', or something similar. I hope you all understand this is a wrong interpretation - especially one born from anti-Islam loons after the 'War on Terror'.
True Jihad is internal struggle against evil - yes Islam does have rule for defensive warfare, and sanctions it in some cases, but that is not at all Jihad. Also Islam never allows wars and violence to spread Islam or for expansionism, though this was used by Muslim Missionaries in practice - much like those of virtually all other religions including Christianity.
Unfortunately now I am very bussy (still) - the more university forms I fill in and send, the more come through the post, and they need me to do research on the internet to understand and of the crap on them. Also I need to pass my driving test. :( So I'd appreciate if someoe can try and find some sources for true Jihad so it can get edited and corrected, and PM me to let me know, as I wont come here for a while. Many thanks in advance. Pink Princess ( talk) 21:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Tourskin, I clearly said that despite what people have excused in history - much like the bloodbaths you fanatic Christians have caused, it does not represent the original teaching you idiot - but hey, reading your page I should guess you'd enjoy anything that slants Islam into a bad like you anti-Islamic racist prick. And when since terrorists or History represented Islam or any other religion - do the missionaries who offer food and aid to the poor, taking advantage of their situation represent Christianity, because I never see that in the Christianity section, nor the massacres carried out to spread that religion, or most others. Religion is scripture and majority opinion - none of those are whats represented in that section in my opinion. Majority opinion and Scripture says Jihad has nothing to do with warfare, and that is what must be represented first and foremost - not the opinions of a few extremists brainwashed or tricked, nor the racist anti-Islam, hate-mongering bigots like Tourskin who seem to want to slander everyone else without looking at themselves. Like I said, I don't have time to keep coming here and search for sources. I created this section specifically to appeal for others lucky enough to have more time on their hands to find such sources, and PM me so I can try putting an arguement forwards at some time.
And Merzbow, thanks but only because it was present on Wikipedia first, does not at all mean that it is in any way superior or truth as per the 'Wiki-Elitest' attitudes. As long as we have people who know nothing about Islam, nor have anything to do with it but to further their own hate-mongering political agendas - wether that be the terrorist loons or extremist Christian racists and hatemongerers like Tourskin - whatever is written here will have a clear bias no matter how strict the many rules here are - but nothing's completely unbiased in the world. I'll try reading the sources when I get time - writing all this is surprisingly much less time consuming than reading all the sources ;) . Thanks again for the advice.
I'll try convince my local Imam to come here with religious, rather than historic sources which this seems to be mainly based on, to correct this. In the meantime I want this section primarily for new sources of Jihad to represent that opinion rather than discussion - a request for help rather than discussion as I have no time to search the whole archives of the internet. I don't know what the wiki policy is on that or what I should do to ask for help in terms of sources here. Should I delete all this discussion and simply put a notice for help on sources to support that or what? Unfortunately even if I get sources I wont be able to come here for some time. Pink Princess ( talk) 23:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you guys think it would be a good idea to contrast the Qur'anic view of Jihad and of warfare with the way Muslims have historically approached it, using the Encyclopedia of the Qur'an articles on Jihad and Warfare? -- Be happy!! ( talk) 00:42, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the balance that has previously been agreed upon is a fair one. Jihad in Islamic legal discourse refers primarily to military combat. In more ascetic, spiritual tracts it assumes the meaning of striving against sin or internal evils - or self purification. As far as I remember (although I haven't checked the section recently), the section does maintain a balance between these two aspects. ITAQALLAH 13:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Tourskin, like I said many times before, the current Islamic Jihad is used as a military/political tactic against the sometime's equally harsh foriegn policies of the mainly Christian West towards third-world Muslim countries. I'm sure if the West was Muslim - Islamic terrorist would be totally obscilete, so we'll get Arab/Central Asian terrorism instead. Be Happy, I think that would be a great idea, so to shut some of those fanatics and bigots up who claim Islam is a religion of war more so than others, and teaches hate to everything West - for political motives. Tourskin, I agree with you there for once, but I'll continue to find sources that represent Jihad to what I was bought up to believe it is, and I believe/hope most muslims will agree to that rather than Itaqallah's and the section's views of it being also/more military based. But it'll probably take me some time - as answering these has taken most my PC time today. Pink Princess ( talk) 16:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
1. Oh you who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Q.9:123) 2. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off. (Q.8:12) 3. Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him. (Q.3:85) 4. Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. (Q.9:5) 5. Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from wherever they drove you out. (Q.2:191) 6. Fight them on until there is no more dissension and religion becomes that of Allâh. (Q.9:193) 7. Fight them, and Allâh will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame. (Q.9:14) 8. Make no excuses: you have rejected Faith after you had accepted it. If we pardon some of you, we will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin. (Q.9:66) 9. You who believe! Verily, the Mushrikûn (unbelievers) are Najasun (impure). So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the grand mosque at Mecca) after this year. (Q.9:28) 10. Fight those who do not believe in Allâh and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior. (Q.9:29)
These excerpts are taken from the Koran itself; I don't see how this leaves much 'wiggle room' for tolerance in modern Islam unless followers have decided to ignore sections of their holy text, and Jihad would seem inevitable to me. Mjackso6 ( talk) 01:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Das Kapital? Lol. Gabr- el 01:27, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Unless someone can fins a reliable source (print, direct from the Quran, etc.) for the following 'interpretation':
Within Islamic jurisprudence, jihad is usually taken to mean military exertion against non-Muslim combatants in the defense or expansion of the Islamic state, the ultimate purpose of which is to universalize Islam.
then I will go ahead and delete it. Unless it can be supported as reliable information (not just POV), then it should not be on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Socrates42 ( talk • contribs) 00:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Re-added the section removed by Socrates42. The reference seems to be pretty well supported by the immediately following sentence: "Jihad... may be declared against... non-Islamic leaders or states which refuse to submit to the authority of Islam." Sounds pretty straightforward. RavShimon ( talk) 01:31, 4 February 2009 (UTC)RavShimon
...The Arabic word for surrender without the connotation of peace is "Har-ram". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.190.59 ( talk) 07:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
you are wrong it means 'Submission To The Will Of Allah' check it out —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.32.156.156 ( talk) 14:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Just today reverted an edit claiming that "peace" was the meaning of the root S-L-M. This would be the place to substantiate this. LUbunkerman ( talk) 01:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
There needs to be a separate sub-section regarding the 1150-1400 period (period between Abbasids & Turks), that should include Mongol invasion, Crusades & Reconquista. The after effects should also be discussed in 2-3 sentences, the intellectual stagnancy & defensive introvertism that followed grand scale library burnings & massacres. It was the most cataclysmic period in Islamic history. The text is there, but it seems very unimportant in the way it exists right now.
Similarly we need to have a European colonization sub-section (1700-1950), & its aftereffects including reactionary extremism (Maududi, Qutb, Banna etc).
Farhansher ( talk) 08:54, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Made some improvements in history section, feel free to discuss more changes that need to be made Asdf169 ( talk) 19:01, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Woah woah, not necessarily, lets begin from the start, instead of reverting all the changes. the first section 'Rise of Caliphates' should have mention of the islamic civil wars in the title which it mentions in the subsection, a link to 'Battle of Karbala' should be there clearly. the second section 'islamic golden age' should give mention to Muslim Agricultural Revolution, which isnt given mention later on, No idea why the 'Crusades, Reconquista and Mongol invasion' section was reverted, i thought it made the article more clearer. The empire section should have mention of Safavid Iran, due to many many reasons, which are very clear.
Lastly the 'Modern', no idea why >>
<< shouldnt be there, as little mention is given towards this in the article.
To summarise, as you should know Islam has a vast history, and links should be given to help people (who may not be knowledgeable of Islam as you are) to help them learn etc etc. i will revert the changes and if you wish to remove one or two links which you dont feel are relevant, be my guest, but please do not revert all the changes I made. Thank you. Asdf169 ( talk) 21:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply and thanks for the cleanup. changes have improved the section Asdf169 ( talk) 12:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
hello, what is actually said about alcohol consumption, in 13th warrior he said only not by grain and by grapes. Therefore he could drink alcohol made from honey. Is that correct? Please help Mallerd ( talk) 17:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
What a minute? What do you mean the people didn't know about alcohol from grain? It was introduced into the region 4,000 years ago. Islam can't be that old. ( Spookybubbles ( talk) 21:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC))
I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgeable than myself could have a look at Talk:Black Stone#Hindu view and this edit, which an anonymous IP editor has repeatedly been adding. Essentially the editor is claiming that the Ka'aba in Macca was originally a Hindu temple (!) and is citing an apparently fringe scholar in support of that claim. I've had a look at the sourcing, which seems to be very thin indeed; some second opinions would be useful. -- ChrisO ( talk) 12:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't know about the temple, but I did hear the Black Stone was the center piece for religions in the area long before Islam, although if it was Hindu, or Jewish, or pagan, or Nabataean, or simply related to some odd jinn or another I have no idea. ( Spookybubbles ( talk) 21:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)_
A couple of questions about Islam have been asked on the humanities reference desk. It would be great if some editors knowledgeable about Islam could pop over there and answer them. Thanks. Itsmejudith ( talk) 15:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Within Judaism, you're considered jewish if your mother is jewish, or that's how I remember it in any case. Within Islam, are you considered a member of the faith if your father is muslim? If your mother is muslim? If either is muslim? And is the rule a hard-and-fast kinda thing, or does it possibly vary from country to country?-- Mr Bucket ( talk) 04:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
From a more Muslim perspective (me),
Any questions? Lord of Moria (Avicenna) Talk Contribs 15:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
This thread does not relate directly to work on the article; the conversation is best taken to a non-wiki venue. Article talk pages are not for general discourse on the the topic of the article, but a tool for editing collaboration. If you would like to see an area developed, you may initiate the process by making your recommendations here: the result will just as often answer your query AND result in development of the article. Mavigogun ( talk) 04:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I don't think having an image of the Taj Mahal as the standard image for all the Islam pages is a good idea. The Kabba would have been more suitable as it's the Islamic first and main mosque. The Taj Mahal is not a religious structure, just an architectural aspect of the Mughal Empire and not a place of worship as it's a mausoleum (glorified tombstone for a grave). it also steretypes, suggesting an 'Indian' landmark is in some way a major part of the world faith and it isn't. It's irrelevant and misleading and should be replaced with the Kaaba or Qu'ran etc. Thanks.
80.249.48.115 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 15:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed that the Naqshbandi article does not cite any sources. There seems to have been some edit warring too, and I suspect that if future additions to the article were based only on reliable sources that some of that problem would be reduced. (My own knowledge of Sufism is so slight I would not attempt to edit such an article.)
Now that I think of it, the much larger Islamic art article also has very little sourcing. It seems to be an excellent article, but if some knowledgeable editors could add sources it would be a good act for an important article. Malcolm Schosha ( talk) 23:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
"The Qur'an in its present form is often considered by academic scholars to record the words spoken by Muhammad because the search for variants in Western academia has not yielded any differences of great significance and that historically controversy over the content of the Qur'an has never become a main point." First, this is an ungrammatical snake and needs to be chopped in two.
A larger concern is that it's extremely simplistic. It takes the question of authorship as the sole point of academic interest in the content of the Qur'an. (It also has a kind of "everything fine here, move along" quality.) Questions of self-consistency are equally important. Shifts in emphasis over the course Muhammad's life have been noted (e.g that verses from the Medina period are the more violent is a widely made point.) Marskell ( talk) 15:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Moving it, with the refs:
{{ editsemiprotected}} I don't see the text in the source, but the text printed under the "pronunciation" heading is inappropriate. I suspect this article has been vandalized. Maybe an established user will kjnow how to correct this? Bulkley bouncer ( talk) 01:26, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
The sentence "Muhammad (c. 570 – June 8, 632) was an Arab religious, political, and military leader who founded the religion of Islam as a historical phenomenon."' is confusing. It seems to guess at Muhammad's intentions. There was no way of knowing that the religion would become the 'historical phenomenon' that we know now. So, I am proposing to remove 'as a historical phenomenon".
Also, there has been an obscenity in the first line of the article for many hours. I'm a new user and I don't know how to edit a 'semi-protected' article, so any help is appreciated.—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Patrick poloney (
talk •
contribs)
04:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia, Patrick. If you're registered, I do believe you have to wait four days or so before being able to edit semi-protected articles. Also, the article seems to have been cleaned up, so no worries (for now) Nautical Mongoose ( talk) 05:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Does anybody think creating a section on muslim interaction with the non-muslim world would be useful? I think it would be a more elegant way of incorporating the criticisms section, may be an oportunity to clean up the history section in general, as well. Also, I think a lot of people who are searching for information on Islam might like to know more about it as a factor in shaping world events. Subjects covered might include: Islamic stances on interaction with non-muslims and how this affects the foreign policy of Islamic states, Islamic interaction with other major religions, Islamic proselytization throughout the world, prominent muslims in non-muslim society, tension and conflict with non-muslims. Well, just an idea, shoot it down if it stinks, and by the way, great article, thanks to the editors for a good read. Spampan ( talk) 00:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
The link for Moses in Articles of faith section in line (The Qur'an mentions the names of numerous figures considered prophets in Islam, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, among others) should be changed from Musa [8] to Moses [9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.123.180.146 ( talk) 09:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
User:AAA765 removed the following section writing in edit summary: "to last version by Itaqallah. unsourced or unscholarly":
Pascal Bruckner and Paul Berman on the other hand have entered the "Islam in Europe" debate. Berman identifies a "reactionary turn in the intellectual world" represented by Western scholars who idealize Islam. [3]
Since it's both sourced and scholarly I am re-adding it. — Cesar Tort 06:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
I honestly can say I can look at this article and say that none of this whatsoever describes my beliefs, and the beliefs of at least over 30 million Muslims, counting the Ismaili, the Alevi, and a myriad of other Sufi and Shi'a groups. I stayed away from article for a long time, but now I'd like to work with everyone for changes.
Before I start, the Sunni opinion and Twelver opinion, which are nearly synonymous, should be the most prominent. However, the batini point of view does make up a significant amount of followers of Islam. I am going to use this analogy to help us through this: batini groups in their population are a little more than the same percentage Mormons make up in Christianity. We can use how that was dealt with in their article, however, unlike Mormonism, these groups appeared very early on in Islam, and hence are a little more important in its overall discussion, which includes both historical and contemporary perspectives. In Nizari Ismailism, shariah was declared void not too long after Nizar's son escaped to Alamut. And of course, let's not forget the Sufi groups, and the Qizilbash] forerunners to Alevism, all of which predate the current Usuli school of Twelver Shi'a Islam.
In accordance with the Islamic belief in
predestination...
No Shi'a group I know of believes in predestination. Yes, Allah knows what will happen, but he has not written anything and nothing is set at all, even the return of al-Mahdi is subject to change in Shi'a thought.
The Shi'a understanding of predestination is called "divine justice" (Adalah).
Is there anywhere you can find Adalah described as predestination? How reliable is this source? Adalah, and the Shi'a belief in general, is called the point between two extremes, ie, God knows what will happen but he does not cause it to happen. This is generally termed as a type of free will philosophy-wise.
Some Sufi and Shi'a groups believe these practices are symbolic and metaphorical, and in a minority of cases do not physically practice them.
This is very important. Anyone who reads this article will get the incorrect notion that the meaning of being a practicing Muslim is to pray, fast, and do these literal activities. This isn't so, and many groups that even parkate in these activities, do concentrate on the inner meanings.
...or ritual prayer, which Sunni perform five times a day, though most Shi'a groups such as the Twelver combine the five separate prayers into three times a day, while other Shi'a groups such as the Nizari have only three prayers. For most Muslims, each salah is done facing towards the Kaaba in Mecca.
First off, Twelver (and I think Zaidi) are the ones that combine five prayers into three times a day. Not all Shi'a, one should not use Shi'a to just describe the Twelver branch. Second, it is notable to note that some groups such as the Nizari, really only pray three times a day, not just combine five prayers. Also, Alevi and Nizari do not face Mecca in their prayers. And lastly, there have been quite a few groups in history that have changed the liturgical language in Islam, such as the living Alevi. Abu Hanifa in fact allowed one to recite their prayer in their native toungue, though his students later disagreed with this position.
Some Muslim groups do not fast during Ramadan, and instead have fasts different times of the year.
Once again, among the aforementioned groups, fasting during Ramadan is practically non-existent. In general you still do have fasting, but it is at different times of the year.
The Ismaili exclude khumms and only add three pillars to the five, which are Guardianship, Purity, and Inner Struggle.
Why do we have the Twelver pillars but not the Ismaili? It seems odd, since it is nonetheless a prominent grouping in Shi'a Islam.
- Mainstream Islamic law does not distinguish between "matters of church" and "matters of state"; the ulema function as both jurists and theologians. In practice, Islamic rulers frequently bypassed the Sharia courts with a parallel system of so-called "Grievance courts" over which they had sole control. As the Muslim world came into contact with Western secular ideals, Muslim societies responded in different ways. Turkey has been governed as a secular state ever since the reforms of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, which has been greatly supported by the Shi'a Alevi population. In contrast, the 1979 Iranian Revolution replaced a mostly secular regime with an Islamic republic led by the Ayatollah Khomeini.
Mainstream is important, not all Muslims, even traditional groups, believe that shariah is unseperable from state. In fact until recently, the Twelver advocated a separation of church and state, though one might argue that it was only a temporary measure during The Occultation. Also, I tied in the previous themes by noting that the Shi'a Alevi group were among the biggest supporters of secularism in Turkey, which is I believe a very important fact to complete the mosaic of Islamic beliefs.
Once again, let me make it clear. This edits are a few sentences and words. I don't want them to have an overly prominent place in the article, they are by far fringe views. But, over 30 million is not a small number, that is twice the amount of followers of Judaism in the entire world. And historically it has been witnessed as a movement Islam for a long period of time. It deserves its place in this article, definitely. -- Enzuru 18:44, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I went through it again, and it seemed we had the same concerns. So, what I basically did was moved statements of contention to where the issue was first introduced, and deleted lots of blanket statements (Shi'a believe ______, these statements were often almost exclusive to Usuli Twelver Shi'a). All in all, I think it makes the article cleaner without having a parenthesis in every pillar ascribing not only a Shi'a view, but a false one that not all Shi'a groups believe in. I toned down the language in those pillars as well, so as of right now, it seems pretty good. I'll tweak it as I go along. Here is the idea:
I think this should all be fair, I think Itaqallah was right about the minimalist approach we should take, and in fact, by balancing the view I actually made the entire section smaller, which is good and shows that it was extraneous material and not the lack of material that was creating issues. There is still maybe a little more to do... but looking nice so far. Please give some feedback before further changes. -- Enzuru 05:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Enruzu, Isma'ili net is a sub par forum to receive information regarding Isma'ilism. I would stick to academic publications. The current Imam has repeatedly state that he is not a living God, and that it is contradictory to his faith. There are broad areas of agreement between Isma'ili and Twelver, as both decend fro the Imami or Jaf'ari Madhab, although the application differs, the theology is remains the same.( Water Stirs ( talk) 07:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC))
If one looks at the tawhid mentioned in the article, it seems inaccurate. Being a muslim, I can tell you that the correct translation of, "La ilahi-il-Allah.........muhammad-ur rasool-allah" is, "Allah is the only God and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is his prophet." I hope someone can correct it since the page is locked.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
I came to this article looking for information on:
These all seem to be topics of some note or significance, but this article (or its siblings, as far as I can tell) was not helpful or enlightening. Is there another family of articles I should be looking at? ~ Amatulić ( talk) 23:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
( Mohamedfakh ( talk) 02:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC))in islam it is to submit that there is "NO GOD BUT ALLAH ANS MUHAMMED IS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH because in the article it is written "NO GOD BUT GOD
None worthy of worship but Allah and Mohammed is His messenger.
What "god"? please change this the word "god" is degrading Allah is Incomparably Great.
The word "god" is comparable "gods" "goddess" "godfather" "god mother" etc... it has gender and Allah is not male nor female.
There's none like Him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.202.5.104 ( talk) 14:03, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I note that the Shahada plaque was switched with the Salah pic as the lead image. I'd much prefer the latter personally (and that was the chosen img last time this topic was debated). ITAQALLAH 16:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Is it supposed to be pronounced like IZlum or is it EESlum or EYEslam or what? Also, could I learn about iSlam from an iMam on my iPod and talk about it on my iPhone? -- 137.186.233.134 ( talk) 23:39, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
I recommend replacing the text:
The year 1428 AH coincides almost completely with 2007 CE.
, which appears under "Calendar," with:
The year 1430 AH began on December 29, 2008 CE.
Expo1892 ( talk) 11:59, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
207.250.168.69 (
talk)
19:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Salam hi
I think the First pillar, Shahadah has been written phonetically not correctly perhaps, it should be: Lā ilaha illa al-Lāh, Muhammadun rasūlu l-Lāh
This is correct on the seperate wiki for the Shahadah but not for the Islam one.
Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uf007uf ( talk • contribs) 22:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Just wanted to report these unsourced, rather inflammatory articles about sex in Islam. I dont think their is any need of these kinds of articles either. Islamic view of anal sex, Oral sex in Islamic law —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.30.106.232 ( talk) 10:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi to everyone,
I was thinking about
hyperlinking "
7th century" in the
Islam article, but then it looks a bit like
overlinking too.
On the other hand placing the birth of
Islam in the right chronological context could help wikipedians understand better
world history.
What do you think about it?
Thanks for your attention in reading me.
Maurice Carbonaro (
talk)
12:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
First of all I'd like to say that Wikipedia is a very resourceful website.Alot of people,especially me, browse this website for research work that help make good reports and papers. The subject name that I have given has two reasons: 1) Islam as with any other religion deserves repect, so the Prophets' or any name of Religious Books should be addressed with respect.For example: Instead of 'Quran' it SHOULD BE 'The Holy Quran' And above all our Prophet Muhammed Sallallaho'alihe Wasallam deserves the UTMOST RESPECT when he is mentioned or addressed in any sentence or anywhere for that matter.So instead of 'Muhammed' it SHOULD BE 'Muhammed Peace be Upon Him.' 2) In the case of Islam God is used for the arabic word ALLAH.Here what I would like to point out is that God has a gender and an opposite which is Goddess whereas ALLAH has no gender and absolutely no opposite. Again what I am trying to rectify, hopfully,is that I as with any sound religion practicing person/individual would like this to be rectified as soon as possible, please. I hope I have not offened anyone but keep hope that Wikipedia will do everything within its powers to rectify these honest mistakes. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.50.26.18 ( talk) 22:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
The name Allah is a more respectful name to the lord then just saying gos. god has no meaning to it. In Islam the name Allah is a more praiseworthy name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moej290 ( talk • contribs) 20:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I notice Judaism says "In modern Judaism, central authority is not vested in any single person or body, but in sacred texts, religious law, and learned Rabbis who interpret those texts and laws." Is Islam similar in these respects? Also are there organizations corresponding the Christian churches (eg. Roman Catholic hierarchy). If not, who builds those vast and lavish Mosques. Don't the owners get to pick the preacher? (Just a common-sense question, we are supposed to apply common-sense.) Fourtildas ( talk) 19:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
I see no mention of Alevism on the page about Islam. I think it should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.21.191 ( talk) 00:09, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
You have now read this page and now you owe me 750,000,000 POUNDS! Every day late it goes up 250,000,000 more POUNDS!!!!! Remember to pay me or else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank You!!!!:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.216.32.36 ( talk) 18:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
that is a mis representation as all references in the quran to killing and violence are in regards to ENTIRE COMMUNITIES fighting and the proper muslim response, the muslim god does not ADVOCATE VIOLENCE, in fact numerous references can be cited in which it states that disbelievers who are not oppresive or aggresive and who you have signd peace treaties with should be respected. i dont have alot of time right now but just off the top of my head sura 9 verse 4.
in response to below
Schulte123 ( talk) 02:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
shouldn't it be put somewhere that Islam is a very violent religion? (if you are an orthodox muslim) The Quran and the rest of the writings from Muhammed do say that if you refuse to become a muslim, you should be killed, and the killer will go to heaven. Also, somewhere there should be a section that talks about how the terrorists of 9-11 were muslims...? It's just an idea, thought I might ask...thanks!
This article is based on Sunni Islam and is not neutral. 99.247.0.42 ( talk) 00:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
the mention of the sunnah ( muhammeds life and works ), should actually be listed under seperate sects of this religion and any mentioning of other than god ALONE is considerd blashpemy and idol worship by muslims who have copies of the true quran as revealed rashad khalifa.
comments?
Schulte123 ( talk) 02:05, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
salam
I am trying to contribute to a couple of articles and want a better understanding of how to organise references nicely. I see that some articles have a section for notes and another section for references, and it allows for brief citations mentioning author's last name, year of publication of the book, and page number in the notes section that one can check in the references section for full title, author's name, etc. Is there anyone here who can help me to understand how to organise references into these two handy lists? Thank you.
PinkWorld (
talk)
14:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)Pink
Hello, I wanted to first thank the people who dedicated time and effort in setting this page up (excuse my english, it is a second language). I was wondering why Shia muslims in Pakistan are not represented in the "Map showing distribution of Shia and Sunni Muslims in Africa, Asia and Europe". If i'm not mistaken, their population of 130 million people is divided between shia's and sunni's, considerably 65 million people ( https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pk.html). If the map is not up to date, why would is it being used as a visual representation of shia sunni muslim populations.Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc ( talk • contribs) 23:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Much more should be said about the heterodox sects. Even the Ismailis are not give enough emphasis. I agree that a link to specialized article may be all that is needed but the current references are too off-hand. Sects which needed to named included the Alawites and the Bahai. A discussion of the political aspects of the Bahai and the Ahamadiya would be useful. Finally there should be something about the peripheral religuions like the Druse and the Yazidis. Again all that might be needed is a link. I am unsure about whether the Qur'an-only movement merits recognition as a sect. DKleinecke ( talk) 22:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I asked this on the talk page of Predestination in Islam, but I realized that many who would care about the changes I would make may not be watching that page and the best way to get feed-back would be to mention it here. I said, "It seems to me that a summary of the the major schools of thought and major thinkers should be added to this page. It seems to me that this would be the #1 most useful section in an article of this sort. I will await feedback before adding these myself." I have gathered some sources to make these additions, but these would constitute a fairly sizable edition so I wanted to make sure anyone who would oppose them has sufficient chance to make themselves heard. I am new to Wikipedia editing, so please correct me on any breaches of etiquette I may be committing. LUbunkerman ( talk) 01:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Islam is the name of religion but muslim means member of this religion -- Ozozcan ( talk) 21:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure I beat someone to this that has more authority to do it than me, but Cmmmm's additions were terribly unbalanced at best and slanderous at worst. I was going to appeal to him to revert or balance them, but to that I had to see his talk page which disabused me of any notion that he would do so. If there is any way to take it private by e-mailing him, I couldn't find it. As always, please correct me if I have over-stepped my bounds. LUbunkerman ( talk) 22:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe one "enjoys" being a second class citizen. Perehaps, "were allowed" instead.
"Historically, dhimmis enjoyed a measure of communal autonomy under their own religious leaders, but were subject to legal, social and religious restrictions meant to highlight their inferiority.[130]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Outlook2 ( talk • contribs) 05:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
First of all, this is good English. This is OED's meaning 4a:
But there is a nit that can be picked here, I suppose. Just make sure that the replacement phrasing is at least as good English. The intended meaning is that dhimmis had the "benefit" or "advantage" of certain privileges compared to other class systems where the underdogs often have no rights at all or compared to other non-Muslims in Muslim society, such as pagans and apostates, who were not so much without rights as actively persecuted. -- dab (𒁳) 08:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
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