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"and non-Muslims in a Muslim were traditionally allowed to live as dhimmis."
In a Muslim what? Nation, community, state, occupied region? ( Nick Kamm 13:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC))
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Islam/archive2
Aminz convinced me not to wait for the Peer Review, which usually takes a month and frequently only garners automated comments (which I can and have generated and reviewed myself). So now it's show time. - Merzbow 02:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
People on FAC are encouraging us to combine adjacent footnotes. Historically, we've done this using semicolons, but the semicolons are hard to see when complex references like cite templates are put in one footnote. However, I've found that the bullet character does the job nicely, along with line breaks. As an experiment I've converted references 108 and 137 to this new format. What do people think? - Merzbow 22:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Ack. So per FAC we have to decide what to add to the History section to expand its scope beyond the political. I think maybe a paragraph per sub-section would do; it still should remain primarily political history since this is the only place in the article that treats it. The existing material in the first and third sections can be shrunk a bit to make room. I suppose things to hit on are origin of sects, important developments in law and theology, important developments in the arts. Also note that I've just created the new "Modern times" section, which now contains the "Modern movements" material, which I think is a much more logical organization; it still needs a bit of history added to it. So let's throw out some ideas:
- Merzbow 07:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this would be better: "In response, the Muslim organizations of "Islamic Supreme Council of Canada" and Bernard Lewis, a non-Muslim scholars, say that Islamic texts do not sanction these activities."-- Aminz 08:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
He is still a terrorist supporter. Supporters of violence against Israel are still terrorist supporters. But I'm getting sick of this debate that apparently is going nowhere.-- Sefringle 00:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is what the Oxford Dictionary of Islam has to say:
Family: The basic unit of Islamic society. In Arabic, ahl or aila is a comperhensive term that may include grandparents, uncles, aunts, and cousins on both sides of the family. The Qur'an enjoins mutual respect and responsibility between spouses and among family members. Spouses and children have duties and rights protected by law. Men and women remain members of their natal families even after their marriage. In modern times, the family has been subject to economic and social pressures that have disrupted the traditional family-extended patterns, including changing responsibilities for women. Nevertheless, it remains a flexible unit of social organization in Muslim societies.
Family law A marriage contract requires an offer and acceptance before witnesses. The groom is required to give his wife a dowery (mahr), which is her property alone, to dispose of as she wishes. The groom may pay a portion of the dowery at the time of contract and the rest at a specific time in the marriage contract. Men may marry up to four wives, but women may marry only one men at a time. In most Muslim countries, divorce by the husband is effected by a unilateral pronouncement known as the talaq, which severs the legal relationship, although this is in violation of Quranic teaching and one of the subjects of modern reform efforts. After the talaq, the couple must refain from sexual intercourse for three months. At the end of this time, the marriage is terminated. During the marriage, the wife is entitled to maintenance and support, which includes food, clothing, and accommodation; with divorce, this entitlement terminates. Legal adoption is not permissible under traditional Islamic law. The specifics of Islamic law differ widely on place and time as well as school of law. The past two centuries have seen major reforms in Islamic family law: Tunisia rendered polygony illegal on Islamic grounds and established equal rights for men and women in divorce; Turkey also forbade polygony, but as a result of a wholesale adoption of the Western legal code.
The Women and Islam entry is long. I just quote the first paragraph and some other parts:
"In Islam, men and women are moral equals in God's sight and are expected to fulfil the same duties of worship, prayer, almsgiving, fasting, and plgrimage to Mecca. Islam generally improved the status of women compared to earlier Arab cultures, prohibiting female infanticide and recognizing women's full personhood. Islamic law emphasizes the contractual nature of marriage, requiring a dowery be paid to the women rather than to her family, and guaranteeing women's rights of inheritence and to own and manage property. Women were also granted the right to live in the matrimonial home and recieve financial maintainance during marriage and a waiting period following death and divorce.
The historical records shows that Muhammad consulted women and weighted their opinions seriously. At least one women was appointed imam over her household by Muhammad. Women contributed significantly to the canonization of the Qur'an. A women is known to have corrected the authorative ruling of Caliph Umar on dowery....Nevertheless, the status of women in premodern Islam in general conformed not to Quranic ideals but to prevailing patriachal cultural norms. As a result improvement of the status of women became a major issue in modern, reformist Islam...."
-- Aminz 01:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
... Hmmm. Let me see. This part was relevant from the above quote:"The past two centuries have seen major reforms in Islamic family law: Tunisia rendered polygony illegal on Islamic grounds and established equal rights for men and women in divorce; Turkey also forbade polygony, but as a result of a wholesale adoption of the Western legal code."
I'll quote part of the Women and Islam entry which is more relevant to your concern:
Nevertheless, the status of women in premodern Islam in general conformed not to Quranic ideals but to prevailing patriachal cultural norms. As a result improvement of the status of women became a major issue in modern, reformist Islam.
Since the mid-nineteenth century, men and women have questioned the legal and social restrictions on wpmen especially regarding education, seclusion, strict veiling, polygony, slavery, and concubinage. Women have published works advocating reforms, established schools for girls, opposed veiling and polygony, and engaged in student and nationalist movements. Nationalist movements and new states that emerged in post-World War II period percieved women and gender issues as crucial to social development. State policies enabled groups of women to enter the male-dominated political spheres and professions previously closed to them, although these policies often caused popular and religous backlash.
Debate continue over the appropriate level of female participation in the public sphere. Women are typically viewed as key to either reforming or conserving tradition because of their roles in maintaining family, social continuity, and culture. Women's status has also been used as a means of defining national identity. Although governments of twentieth-century Muslim nation-states have promote education for both boys and girls as a means of achieving economic growth, the percentage of girls enrolled in schools in developing countries with large and rapidly growing population remains low.[Editorial comment from User:Aminz :) In recent years in Iran, the number of girls entering universities exceeds that of boys.] Concern for men's job has given added incentive to the conservative call for women to adhere to traditional role as housewives and mothers, although economic necessity has led women to undertake whatever work they can find, usually low-paid, unskilled labor. War and labor migration have increased the number of female-headed households.
Women today are active participants in grassroots organizations; development projects; economic, education, health, and political projects; relief efforts; charitable associations; and social services. Modern reforms have made polygynous marriages difficult or illegal; permited wives to sue for divorce in religous courts, particularly in cases of cruelty, desertion, or dangerous contagious diseases; provided women with the right to contract themselves in marriage; required husbands to find housing for a divorced wife while she has custody over the children; increased minimum age for spouses.... THIS LIST GOES ON AND ON...[Editorial comment from User:Aminz Again :) I have not seen even one polygony marriage in Iran. ]
EoI says(article Nikah):
4. The laws regarding the rights and duties of husband and wife cannot be modified by the parties at the drawing-up of the contract. This can, however, be effected by the man pronouncing a conditional ṭalāḳ immediately after the conclusion of the marriage contract; this shift to secure the position of the woman is particularly common among Indian Muslims. For the rest, the couple are left to private agreements which need not be mentioned in the marriage contract. The actual position of the woman in marriage is in all Muslim countries entirely dependent on local conditions and on many special circumstances. It is not a contradiction of this to say that the legal prescriptions regarding marriage are most carefully observed as a rule. In spite of certain ascetic tendencies, Islam as a whole has been decidedly in favour of marriage.—In modern Islam, the problem of the woman's position in marriage and polygamy is especially discussed between conservatives and adherents of modern social ideas.
On reforms regarding polygomy, same article says:
Reforms aimed at consolidating monogamy restrict polygamy to the extent of complete abolition. Polygamy has been totally abolished as yet only in Turkey. In ʿIrāḳ it was first abolished (1959), only to be reduced to prohibition (1963). Complementary measures taken concerning polygamy are:
(1) Stipulation in the marriage contract (see above, vii).
Ottoman family law allows a woman to stipulate in her marriage contract that her husband shall not marry another wife and that should he do so, either she or the polygamous wife will be divorced. Jordan followed suit, though the first wife may dissolve only her own marriage, not that of the co-wife.
(2) Prohibition.
Polygamy has been prohibited (in Iran this presumably applies to both permanent and temporary marriage) unless permitted by court (district court in South Yemen) on the basis of “good defences”: The court must be satisfied that the husband is financially able to properly maintain multiple wives (Syria; Iran, 1967); that the co-wives will be treated with equal justice (ʿIrāḳ, Iran, 1967); and that the first wife consents to the marriage, is unable or unwilling to co-habit, has been sentenced to imprisonment, is addicted to drink, drugs or gambling, has deserted the family or disappeared, or has become barren, insane or afflicted with incurable disease (Iran, 1967, 1975). In South Yemen a medical certificate to this effect is required. In ʿIrāḳ these defences are presumably implied by the phrase “some lawful benefit in the polygamous marriage”. In Israel (1951) the defence available to Muslims qua Muslims against a charge of polygamy (prohibited by the Mandatary authorities) was abolished and replaced by two defences against such a charge: prolonged absence or mental illness of the spouse.
Prohibition of polygamy, unlike abolition, does not in itself invalidate polygamous marriage, though those failing to obtain the court's permission are liable to penal sanctions.
-- Aminz 01:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
To be added to the last section for the purpose of achieving more comprehensive issues coverage there:
"Islam is criticised for affronting human dignity and failing standards of civilised behaviour to the extent that it permits circumstances for the birth of children into
slavery as well as promulgating a permission for muslims to buy and sell enslaved persons - including for the sole purpose of
concubinage."
Overall, this is an excellent & informative article. I'm simply going to list a few comments on relatively minor points I noticed:
should be abbreviated to
For example, you could point out that Hijri centuries are 3 years shorter than Christian centuries. A back-of-the-envelope calculation then gives 2007 - 622 = 1385 Christian years since the Hijra: nearly 14 centuries; x 3 = 42 Hijri years to be added; 1385 + 42 = 1427, which is only one year out.
The reverse conversion is better. 1428 is roughly 14⅓ centuries. So 1428 - 43 = 1385 Christian years since the Hijra; + 622 = 2007.
-- NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
(Copied and continued from FAC review).
I highly disagree with that edit. EoQ is quite clear that according to some "the qurʾānic message is not political but moral". This section further fails to mention Shia Islam that traditionally separated politics from religion holding that only Muhammad and his descendents can be the head of government. We are not supposed to write what people *like* to hear.--Aminz 00:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Some preliminaries: As an institution governing a territory, administering its peoples and resources and legislating a socio-political order, the state as organ of rule came into being in early Islam not from qurʾānic directive but from the experience and consensus of the first Muslims. Strong emphasis is given in the Qurʾān to obedience (q.v.) to God and the messenger (q.v.) of God, a heavily exploited phrase which early exegetes understood as those with knowledge and intelligence, not political authority, e.g. Mujāhid, Tafsīr, i, 163; see knowledge and learning; scholar; intellect). The Qurʾān makes enough mention of struggle between the followers of Muḥammad and his opponents to suggest that politics was at play in the first attempts to announce its message. Moreover, the Prophet was awarded authority (q.v.) in the form of an oath of allegiance, in which his followers promised to fight for the cause of God and early writers of history, such as Ibn Saʿd (d. 230/845; Ṭabaqāt), do depict the Prophet as a regional hegemon, receiving delegations and tribute in exchange for protection.
There is no agreement that the Qurʾān even has a political message. For Qamaruddin Khan the qurʾānic message is not political but moral, a summons to submit to the one God and a life of faith. He claims that the Qurʾān in no way sanctions one political form (i.e. monarchy, theocracy, democracy, etc.) and that those who derive a political message from the Qurʾān exploit its verses out of context for their own goals. In contrast, for Muhammad ʿIzzat Darwaza the Qurʾān speaks to all aspects of human life, including the state and its financial, judicial, military and missionary tasks — a specifically qurʾānic political program implied, as he sees it, in the reference of q 57:25 to the book (q.v.) and iron, i.e. divine justice and the coercive force needed to ensure public order. To that end, he adduces a number of verses (q.v.) purported to have called for political leadership after the death of the Prophet and marshals forth in the body of the work an array of verses on the basis of which he constructs a qurʾānic vision of political organization.
Despite the range of opinion about its political content, the Qurʾān is clear about the connection between socio-political prosperity and obedience to the message of God as conveyed by his messengers.
-- Aminz 05:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a quibble about the "family" section, even after Merzbow's very useful edits. I wish we could have just a little more detail about the controversies relating to women's dress. And the present text reads "traditional Islamic practices such as veiling ( hijab, burqa, chador) and seclusion ( purdah)." Well, as I understand it, "hijab" has two meanings, a general one meaning modest dress and a more specific one meaning a type of headscarf, which is not a veil as it does not cover the face. The chador is an overall garment that again does not have to include a veil. The burqa does include a veil. There is also the niqab. As it reads at the moment the article could further confuse readers who are not familiar with all these types of dress and the attitudes to them. Itsmejudith 07:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I know that Merzbow is rigorously cutting stuff out and this helps the article towards FA. But have we got room for another sentence about Sufi music and dance? These artistic traditions are gaining in worldwide influence. For example, note the popularity of the late great musician Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. There are also the Sufi saints .... ? Itsmejudith 22:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the philosophers from the Arts section, because the generic definition of Islamic philosophy wasn't very useful, and because three of the four listed are treated more informatively in Golden Age section. It strikes me that Al-Kindi may warrant mention here as well. Proabivouac 05:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
[1] It is not that he kill Jews simply becasue they resist in converting to Islam. It shows that all non-Muslim should be killed, deported. Which is obviously wrong. Could we make the wording better ? --- A. L. M. 07:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Merzbow, Can you please quote what the source has to say about this sentence: "Muhammad also increased the pressure on Mecca by bringing surrounding desert tribes under his control, by force or by alliance."-- Aminz 07:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Merzbow, please check if that was a significant part of Muhammad's mission? I mean how important it was overally to be included in this section. -- Aminz 08:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
For historical accuracy, shouldn't reference be made to the former name of the city, Yathrib? Presumably that was still its name at the time of the Hijra. -- NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 22:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with ITAQALLAH that this is too detailed for a basic introduction, especially as the readers will have no idea as to who the kullabiyya, ash`ariyyah, karramiyyah etc so I support his edition [2] .-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Any objections to moving the "divine decree" section down to the subarticle Aqidah in its entirety? Originally we had listed divine decree as an essential aspect of Islamic belief along with five other things (belief in God; his revelations; his angels; his messengers; and the "Day of Judgment"). However, I couldn't find references that support the claim that it's as important as these other five, and it very likely isn't because Qur'an 4:136 only does mention these five. So I think it's misleading to list it next to them. - Merzbow 17:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
This issue is extremely controversial among different sects. Not only have Muslim theologians different ideas in this case but also Sufis have their own interpretation. I propose removing this section or writing all of the interpretations.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I was about to revert again [4]. Why do you remove the facts Merzbow? -- Aminz 05:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
[6]. I disagree. Infact some Muslim believe that he could potentially do sins. mistakes ---
A. L. M.
01:47, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Can I change it to "most perfect"? --- A. L. M. 06:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
There should be some information about the meaning of prophecy and divine revelation in Islam and I added it.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 10:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I added a paragraph about this issue but ALM removed it to reduce the size of the articleit [7]. I disagree with him and believe this part is necessary. Please tell us your idea.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 02:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Masnavi had a profound influence on the development of Sufi religious thought; to many Sufis it is second in importance only to the Qur'an.
In brief I believe that whatever has been mentioned in the history section of this article has less importance than collection and standardization of the Qur'an. -- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 09:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this edit: [8]. Momen's book doesn't list the Shahadah as one of the eight "ritual practices" of the Shi'a. The Practices_of_the_Religion article, which is completely unsourced, also doesn't list it as one of its ten practices. So I think we should make it clear that the Shi'a don't see it as a "pillar" in the same way the Sunni do. (If anyone can point to any reliable sources which give more information on what the core practices of the Shi'a are - whether there are 8 of then, 10 or them, or something else - please do). - Merzbow 06:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
It's doubtful that Hasan Basri is the origin of Sufism. All of the Sufi orders introduce Ali or Abu Bakr as their origin. In addition classic sources like Tazkerat al-aulia of Attar has mentioned some earlier figures like Uways al-Qarni as the first Sufis.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there are several mistake in this sentence the decadence of the Umayyads inspired the formation of a movement of ascetics led by a devout Muslim named Hasan al-Basri.
First, Sufism wasn't the result of the decadence of the Umayyads. Second, although Hasan al-Basri is notable but Sufism was not a political movement which had just one leader or founder. I will added the names of the most notable founders of Sufism En Sha Allah.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
i think the previous expressions in both instances are more concise. with the Muhammad section - we have one paragraph summarising his life very briefly - there are a lot of events of importance not mentioned at all (Isra and Mi'raj, Constitution of Medina, Treaty of Hudaybiyya, etc.) it is thus appropriate that we retain this level of unspecificity rather than detailing one particular event. ITAQALLAH 09:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
None of the sources in the Demographics section support a figure larger than 1.3 billion. If 1.4 billion is desired another source must be provided. - Merzbow 17:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
What about this? Islam by Country 216.99.51.128 03:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to everybody for their hard work. This is proof that a controversial, high-profile article can indeed reach FA status. We are now perpetually obligated to keep it at FA quality; in other words, don't take it off your watchlist. - Merzbow 21:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Special thanks to User:Dev920 and User:Merzbow for their efforts and initiative. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 03:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
excellent work, congratulations. The mind boggles at the high FA standard exepected these days, but that's actually a good thing. It appears that it is now significantly harder to get "GA" than it was to get "FA" two years ago. dab (𒁳) 18:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The article implies that the split happened after the war between Ali and Muawiyyah after 661 "This dispute over leadership would give rise to schism in the Muslim community. The majority accepted the legitimacy of the three rulers prior to Ali, and became known as Sunnis. A minority disagreed, and believed that Ali was the only rightful successor; they became known as the Shi'a."
EoI says(Shia article):
"In the lifetime of Muḥammad, his close kin enjoyed a raised religious status of purity recognised by the Ḳurʾān. As his kin, there were counted the descendants of his great-grandfather Hās̲h̲im and, to some extent, the descendants of Hās̲h̲im's brother al-Muṭṭalib. They were, like the Prophet himself, not allowed to receive or to handle alms (zakāt) as these were considered unclean. In compensation for this exclusion they were entitled to receive a portion of the k̲h̲ums, the fifth of war booty reserved to the Prophet, and of the fayʾ [q.v.], property which fell to the Muslims without war effort. After Muḥammad's death, the establishment of the caliphate by Abū Bakr on the basis of a privileged position for the tribe of Ḳurays̲h̲ as a whole, and the confiscation of Muḥammad's property, deprived the Prophet's Family of the special status, as they were disinherited and lost their title to their Ḳurʾānic share of the k̲h̲ums and fayʾ. The Banū Hās̲h̲im vainly protested against these developments by refusing to pledge allegiance to Abū Bakr for six months. The disestablishment of the Family of the Prophet after his death was the ultimate motive for the rise of the Shia."
-- Aminz 02:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
"Tensions escalated into what became the first civil war (the "First Fitna"), in which numerous companions of Muhammad sought to avenge the slaying of Uthman."
This may imply that Ali was responsible for slaying of Uthman. We should explain this in more details. -- Aminz 02:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
In relation to this edit of mine [13], please see [14] where I've asked Itaqallah to clarify the point. I just thought it would be good to add a reference here on the talk page. -- Aminz 03:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Assalam alaikum actually Islam was not found by Prophet Muhammed (P.B.U.H). many of the non-Muslims think Islam is found by Prophet Muhammed (P.B.U.H),as it is given in many of the websites also. Islam was started by first man on earth who was sent by God (Prophet Adam). Prophet Mohammed was the last Prophet sent by the God.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hishad ( talk • contribs)
Do featured articles get shown on the main page? When will this article be shown? Thanks.-- 0rrAvenger 10:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I just attempted to use the Sunni and Shi'a summary-style subtopic articles to get information about internal organizational differences between these two branches of Islam and about possible differences between them regarding views on advocacy of Separation of Church and State (and, if interested, please see changes I have made to that other article). I wasn't too successful in finding the information I was after in the mentioned subtopic articles.
I had the thought that it would have been useful to me as an information-seeker if the subtopic articles on the various branches of Islam were structured similarly to one another -- with similar section/subsection headings and section/subsection ordering, and thought that I would pass that thought along here. -- Boracay Bill 23:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I'm not overly keen on the whole tone of this article. references like the following text
Belief in the "Day of Resurrection", yawm al-Qiyāmah (also known as yawm ad-dīn, "Day of Judgment" and as-sā`a, "the Last Hour") is also crucial for Muslims. They believe that the time of Qiyāmah is preordained by God but unknown to man.
Seem to me to be obviously written in the third person and feel condescending, as if stating that the believe system is not true. Would it not be better to change "They believe" to a more neutral "It is believed"? - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.15.4 ( talk • contribs)
This artile is bound to have a bias and what caught my eye was teh so called Golden age between 750 and 1250. This is in fact at a time when the Arab conquests were stopped in the mid 8th century, the Byzantines launched successful counterattacks and when the Fatimid and Corduba caliphates emerged. The Crusades are mentioned only to mention Saladin's triumph in Hattin. A biref mention of these points regarding this age in my opinion would provide a more rounded version of the history of Islam and her respective kingdoms (which of course were far from united). Tourskin 22:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/Inter-religious content task force. Do people who edit religion articles want such a task force? If so or if not, speak out. -- Shirahadasha 17:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
"and non-Muslims in a Muslim were traditionally allowed to live as dhimmis."
In a Muslim what? Nation, community, state, occupied region? ( Nick Kamm 13:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC))
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Islam/archive2
Aminz convinced me not to wait for the Peer Review, which usually takes a month and frequently only garners automated comments (which I can and have generated and reviewed myself). So now it's show time. - Merzbow 02:08, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
People on FAC are encouraging us to combine adjacent footnotes. Historically, we've done this using semicolons, but the semicolons are hard to see when complex references like cite templates are put in one footnote. However, I've found that the bullet character does the job nicely, along with line breaks. As an experiment I've converted references 108 and 137 to this new format. What do people think? - Merzbow 22:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Ack. So per FAC we have to decide what to add to the History section to expand its scope beyond the political. I think maybe a paragraph per sub-section would do; it still should remain primarily political history since this is the only place in the article that treats it. The existing material in the first and third sections can be shrunk a bit to make room. I suppose things to hit on are origin of sects, important developments in law and theology, important developments in the arts. Also note that I've just created the new "Modern times" section, which now contains the "Modern movements" material, which I think is a much more logical organization; it still needs a bit of history added to it. So let's throw out some ideas:
- Merzbow 07:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this would be better: "In response, the Muslim organizations of "Islamic Supreme Council of Canada" and Bernard Lewis, a non-Muslim scholars, say that Islamic texts do not sanction these activities."-- Aminz 08:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
He is still a terrorist supporter. Supporters of violence against Israel are still terrorist supporters. But I'm getting sick of this debate that apparently is going nowhere.-- Sefringle 00:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is what the Oxford Dictionary of Islam has to say:
Family: The basic unit of Islamic society. In Arabic, ahl or aila is a comperhensive term that may include grandparents, uncles, aunts, and cousins on both sides of the family. The Qur'an enjoins mutual respect and responsibility between spouses and among family members. Spouses and children have duties and rights protected by law. Men and women remain members of their natal families even after their marriage. In modern times, the family has been subject to economic and social pressures that have disrupted the traditional family-extended patterns, including changing responsibilities for women. Nevertheless, it remains a flexible unit of social organization in Muslim societies.
Family law A marriage contract requires an offer and acceptance before witnesses. The groom is required to give his wife a dowery (mahr), which is her property alone, to dispose of as she wishes. The groom may pay a portion of the dowery at the time of contract and the rest at a specific time in the marriage contract. Men may marry up to four wives, but women may marry only one men at a time. In most Muslim countries, divorce by the husband is effected by a unilateral pronouncement known as the talaq, which severs the legal relationship, although this is in violation of Quranic teaching and one of the subjects of modern reform efforts. After the talaq, the couple must refain from sexual intercourse for three months. At the end of this time, the marriage is terminated. During the marriage, the wife is entitled to maintenance and support, which includes food, clothing, and accommodation; with divorce, this entitlement terminates. Legal adoption is not permissible under traditional Islamic law. The specifics of Islamic law differ widely on place and time as well as school of law. The past two centuries have seen major reforms in Islamic family law: Tunisia rendered polygony illegal on Islamic grounds and established equal rights for men and women in divorce; Turkey also forbade polygony, but as a result of a wholesale adoption of the Western legal code.
The Women and Islam entry is long. I just quote the first paragraph and some other parts:
"In Islam, men and women are moral equals in God's sight and are expected to fulfil the same duties of worship, prayer, almsgiving, fasting, and plgrimage to Mecca. Islam generally improved the status of women compared to earlier Arab cultures, prohibiting female infanticide and recognizing women's full personhood. Islamic law emphasizes the contractual nature of marriage, requiring a dowery be paid to the women rather than to her family, and guaranteeing women's rights of inheritence and to own and manage property. Women were also granted the right to live in the matrimonial home and recieve financial maintainance during marriage and a waiting period following death and divorce.
The historical records shows that Muhammad consulted women and weighted their opinions seriously. At least one women was appointed imam over her household by Muhammad. Women contributed significantly to the canonization of the Qur'an. A women is known to have corrected the authorative ruling of Caliph Umar on dowery....Nevertheless, the status of women in premodern Islam in general conformed not to Quranic ideals but to prevailing patriachal cultural norms. As a result improvement of the status of women became a major issue in modern, reformist Islam...."
-- Aminz 01:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
... Hmmm. Let me see. This part was relevant from the above quote:"The past two centuries have seen major reforms in Islamic family law: Tunisia rendered polygony illegal on Islamic grounds and established equal rights for men and women in divorce; Turkey also forbade polygony, but as a result of a wholesale adoption of the Western legal code."
I'll quote part of the Women and Islam entry which is more relevant to your concern:
Nevertheless, the status of women in premodern Islam in general conformed not to Quranic ideals but to prevailing patriachal cultural norms. As a result improvement of the status of women became a major issue in modern, reformist Islam.
Since the mid-nineteenth century, men and women have questioned the legal and social restrictions on wpmen especially regarding education, seclusion, strict veiling, polygony, slavery, and concubinage. Women have published works advocating reforms, established schools for girls, opposed veiling and polygony, and engaged in student and nationalist movements. Nationalist movements and new states that emerged in post-World War II period percieved women and gender issues as crucial to social development. State policies enabled groups of women to enter the male-dominated political spheres and professions previously closed to them, although these policies often caused popular and religous backlash.
Debate continue over the appropriate level of female participation in the public sphere. Women are typically viewed as key to either reforming or conserving tradition because of their roles in maintaining family, social continuity, and culture. Women's status has also been used as a means of defining national identity. Although governments of twentieth-century Muslim nation-states have promote education for both boys and girls as a means of achieving economic growth, the percentage of girls enrolled in schools in developing countries with large and rapidly growing population remains low.[Editorial comment from User:Aminz :) In recent years in Iran, the number of girls entering universities exceeds that of boys.] Concern for men's job has given added incentive to the conservative call for women to adhere to traditional role as housewives and mothers, although economic necessity has led women to undertake whatever work they can find, usually low-paid, unskilled labor. War and labor migration have increased the number of female-headed households.
Women today are active participants in grassroots organizations; development projects; economic, education, health, and political projects; relief efforts; charitable associations; and social services. Modern reforms have made polygynous marriages difficult or illegal; permited wives to sue for divorce in religous courts, particularly in cases of cruelty, desertion, or dangerous contagious diseases; provided women with the right to contract themselves in marriage; required husbands to find housing for a divorced wife while she has custody over the children; increased minimum age for spouses.... THIS LIST GOES ON AND ON...[Editorial comment from User:Aminz Again :) I have not seen even one polygony marriage in Iran. ]
EoI says(article Nikah):
4. The laws regarding the rights and duties of husband and wife cannot be modified by the parties at the drawing-up of the contract. This can, however, be effected by the man pronouncing a conditional ṭalāḳ immediately after the conclusion of the marriage contract; this shift to secure the position of the woman is particularly common among Indian Muslims. For the rest, the couple are left to private agreements which need not be mentioned in the marriage contract. The actual position of the woman in marriage is in all Muslim countries entirely dependent on local conditions and on many special circumstances. It is not a contradiction of this to say that the legal prescriptions regarding marriage are most carefully observed as a rule. In spite of certain ascetic tendencies, Islam as a whole has been decidedly in favour of marriage.—In modern Islam, the problem of the woman's position in marriage and polygamy is especially discussed between conservatives and adherents of modern social ideas.
On reforms regarding polygomy, same article says:
Reforms aimed at consolidating monogamy restrict polygamy to the extent of complete abolition. Polygamy has been totally abolished as yet only in Turkey. In ʿIrāḳ it was first abolished (1959), only to be reduced to prohibition (1963). Complementary measures taken concerning polygamy are:
(1) Stipulation in the marriage contract (see above, vii).
Ottoman family law allows a woman to stipulate in her marriage contract that her husband shall not marry another wife and that should he do so, either she or the polygamous wife will be divorced. Jordan followed suit, though the first wife may dissolve only her own marriage, not that of the co-wife.
(2) Prohibition.
Polygamy has been prohibited (in Iran this presumably applies to both permanent and temporary marriage) unless permitted by court (district court in South Yemen) on the basis of “good defences”: The court must be satisfied that the husband is financially able to properly maintain multiple wives (Syria; Iran, 1967); that the co-wives will be treated with equal justice (ʿIrāḳ, Iran, 1967); and that the first wife consents to the marriage, is unable or unwilling to co-habit, has been sentenced to imprisonment, is addicted to drink, drugs or gambling, has deserted the family or disappeared, or has become barren, insane or afflicted with incurable disease (Iran, 1967, 1975). In South Yemen a medical certificate to this effect is required. In ʿIrāḳ these defences are presumably implied by the phrase “some lawful benefit in the polygamous marriage”. In Israel (1951) the defence available to Muslims qua Muslims against a charge of polygamy (prohibited by the Mandatary authorities) was abolished and replaced by two defences against such a charge: prolonged absence or mental illness of the spouse.
Prohibition of polygamy, unlike abolition, does not in itself invalidate polygamous marriage, though those failing to obtain the court's permission are liable to penal sanctions.
-- Aminz 01:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
To be added to the last section for the purpose of achieving more comprehensive issues coverage there:
"Islam is criticised for affronting human dignity and failing standards of civilised behaviour to the extent that it permits circumstances for the birth of children into
slavery as well as promulgating a permission for muslims to buy and sell enslaved persons - including for the sole purpose of
concubinage."
Overall, this is an excellent & informative article. I'm simply going to list a few comments on relatively minor points I noticed:
should be abbreviated to
For example, you could point out that Hijri centuries are 3 years shorter than Christian centuries. A back-of-the-envelope calculation then gives 2007 - 622 = 1385 Christian years since the Hijra: nearly 14 centuries; x 3 = 42 Hijri years to be added; 1385 + 42 = 1427, which is only one year out.
The reverse conversion is better. 1428 is roughly 14⅓ centuries. So 1428 - 43 = 1385 Christian years since the Hijra; + 622 = 2007.
-- NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
(Copied and continued from FAC review).
I highly disagree with that edit. EoQ is quite clear that according to some "the qurʾānic message is not political but moral". This section further fails to mention Shia Islam that traditionally separated politics from religion holding that only Muhammad and his descendents can be the head of government. We are not supposed to write what people *like* to hear.--Aminz 00:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Some preliminaries: As an institution governing a territory, administering its peoples and resources and legislating a socio-political order, the state as organ of rule came into being in early Islam not from qurʾānic directive but from the experience and consensus of the first Muslims. Strong emphasis is given in the Qurʾān to obedience (q.v.) to God and the messenger (q.v.) of God, a heavily exploited phrase which early exegetes understood as those with knowledge and intelligence, not political authority, e.g. Mujāhid, Tafsīr, i, 163; see knowledge and learning; scholar; intellect). The Qurʾān makes enough mention of struggle between the followers of Muḥammad and his opponents to suggest that politics was at play in the first attempts to announce its message. Moreover, the Prophet was awarded authority (q.v.) in the form of an oath of allegiance, in which his followers promised to fight for the cause of God and early writers of history, such as Ibn Saʿd (d. 230/845; Ṭabaqāt), do depict the Prophet as a regional hegemon, receiving delegations and tribute in exchange for protection.
There is no agreement that the Qurʾān even has a political message. For Qamaruddin Khan the qurʾānic message is not political but moral, a summons to submit to the one God and a life of faith. He claims that the Qurʾān in no way sanctions one political form (i.e. monarchy, theocracy, democracy, etc.) and that those who derive a political message from the Qurʾān exploit its verses out of context for their own goals. In contrast, for Muhammad ʿIzzat Darwaza the Qurʾān speaks to all aspects of human life, including the state and its financial, judicial, military and missionary tasks — a specifically qurʾānic political program implied, as he sees it, in the reference of q 57:25 to the book (q.v.) and iron, i.e. divine justice and the coercive force needed to ensure public order. To that end, he adduces a number of verses (q.v.) purported to have called for political leadership after the death of the Prophet and marshals forth in the body of the work an array of verses on the basis of which he constructs a qurʾānic vision of political organization.
Despite the range of opinion about its political content, the Qurʾān is clear about the connection between socio-political prosperity and obedience to the message of God as conveyed by his messengers.
-- Aminz 05:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a quibble about the "family" section, even after Merzbow's very useful edits. I wish we could have just a little more detail about the controversies relating to women's dress. And the present text reads "traditional Islamic practices such as veiling ( hijab, burqa, chador) and seclusion ( purdah)." Well, as I understand it, "hijab" has two meanings, a general one meaning modest dress and a more specific one meaning a type of headscarf, which is not a veil as it does not cover the face. The chador is an overall garment that again does not have to include a veil. The burqa does include a veil. There is also the niqab. As it reads at the moment the article could further confuse readers who are not familiar with all these types of dress and the attitudes to them. Itsmejudith 07:29, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I know that Merzbow is rigorously cutting stuff out and this helps the article towards FA. But have we got room for another sentence about Sufi music and dance? These artistic traditions are gaining in worldwide influence. For example, note the popularity of the late great musician Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. There are also the Sufi saints .... ? Itsmejudith 22:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the philosophers from the Arts section, because the generic definition of Islamic philosophy wasn't very useful, and because three of the four listed are treated more informatively in Golden Age section. It strikes me that Al-Kindi may warrant mention here as well. Proabivouac 05:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
[1] It is not that he kill Jews simply becasue they resist in converting to Islam. It shows that all non-Muslim should be killed, deported. Which is obviously wrong. Could we make the wording better ? --- A. L. M. 07:11, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Merzbow, Can you please quote what the source has to say about this sentence: "Muhammad also increased the pressure on Mecca by bringing surrounding desert tribes under his control, by force or by alliance."-- Aminz 07:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Merzbow, please check if that was a significant part of Muhammad's mission? I mean how important it was overally to be included in this section. -- Aminz 08:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
For historical accuracy, shouldn't reference be made to the former name of the city, Yathrib? Presumably that was still its name at the time of the Hijra. -- NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 22:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with ITAQALLAH that this is too detailed for a basic introduction, especially as the readers will have no idea as to who the kullabiyya, ash`ariyyah, karramiyyah etc so I support his edition [2] .-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Any objections to moving the "divine decree" section down to the subarticle Aqidah in its entirety? Originally we had listed divine decree as an essential aspect of Islamic belief along with five other things (belief in God; his revelations; his angels; his messengers; and the "Day of Judgment"). However, I couldn't find references that support the claim that it's as important as these other five, and it very likely isn't because Qur'an 4:136 only does mention these five. So I think it's misleading to list it next to them. - Merzbow 17:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
This issue is extremely controversial among different sects. Not only have Muslim theologians different ideas in this case but also Sufis have their own interpretation. I propose removing this section or writing all of the interpretations.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I was about to revert again [4]. Why do you remove the facts Merzbow? -- Aminz 05:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
[6]. I disagree. Infact some Muslim believe that he could potentially do sins. mistakes ---
A. L. M.
01:47, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Can I change it to "most perfect"? --- A. L. M. 06:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
There should be some information about the meaning of prophecy and divine revelation in Islam and I added it.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 10:14, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I added a paragraph about this issue but ALM removed it to reduce the size of the articleit [7]. I disagree with him and believe this part is necessary. Please tell us your idea.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 02:38, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Masnavi had a profound influence on the development of Sufi religious thought; to many Sufis it is second in importance only to the Qur'an.
In brief I believe that whatever has been mentioned in the history section of this article has less importance than collection and standardization of the Qur'an. -- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 09:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this edit: [8]. Momen's book doesn't list the Shahadah as one of the eight "ritual practices" of the Shi'a. The Practices_of_the_Religion article, which is completely unsourced, also doesn't list it as one of its ten practices. So I think we should make it clear that the Shi'a don't see it as a "pillar" in the same way the Sunni do. (If anyone can point to any reliable sources which give more information on what the core practices of the Shi'a are - whether there are 8 of then, 10 or them, or something else - please do). - Merzbow 06:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
It's doubtful that Hasan Basri is the origin of Sufism. All of the Sufi orders introduce Ali or Abu Bakr as their origin. In addition classic sources like Tazkerat al-aulia of Attar has mentioned some earlier figures like Uways al-Qarni as the first Sufis.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:31, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there are several mistake in this sentence the decadence of the Umayyads inspired the formation of a movement of ascetics led by a devout Muslim named Hasan al-Basri.
First, Sufism wasn't the result of the decadence of the Umayyads. Second, although Hasan al-Basri is notable but Sufism was not a political movement which had just one leader or founder. I will added the names of the most notable founders of Sufism En Sha Allah.-- Sa.vakilian( t- c) 04:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
i think the previous expressions in both instances are more concise. with the Muhammad section - we have one paragraph summarising his life very briefly - there are a lot of events of importance not mentioned at all (Isra and Mi'raj, Constitution of Medina, Treaty of Hudaybiyya, etc.) it is thus appropriate that we retain this level of unspecificity rather than detailing one particular event. ITAQALLAH 09:32, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
None of the sources in the Demographics section support a figure larger than 1.3 billion. If 1.4 billion is desired another source must be provided. - Merzbow 17:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
What about this? Islam by Country 216.99.51.128 03:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to everybody for their hard work. This is proof that a controversial, high-profile article can indeed reach FA status. We are now perpetually obligated to keep it at FA quality; in other words, don't take it off your watchlist. - Merzbow 21:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Special thanks to User:Dev920 and User:Merzbow for their efforts and initiative. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 03:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
excellent work, congratulations. The mind boggles at the high FA standard exepected these days, but that's actually a good thing. It appears that it is now significantly harder to get "GA" than it was to get "FA" two years ago. dab (𒁳) 18:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The article implies that the split happened after the war between Ali and Muawiyyah after 661 "This dispute over leadership would give rise to schism in the Muslim community. The majority accepted the legitimacy of the three rulers prior to Ali, and became known as Sunnis. A minority disagreed, and believed that Ali was the only rightful successor; they became known as the Shi'a."
EoI says(Shia article):
"In the lifetime of Muḥammad, his close kin enjoyed a raised religious status of purity recognised by the Ḳurʾān. As his kin, there were counted the descendants of his great-grandfather Hās̲h̲im and, to some extent, the descendants of Hās̲h̲im's brother al-Muṭṭalib. They were, like the Prophet himself, not allowed to receive or to handle alms (zakāt) as these were considered unclean. In compensation for this exclusion they were entitled to receive a portion of the k̲h̲ums, the fifth of war booty reserved to the Prophet, and of the fayʾ [q.v.], property which fell to the Muslims without war effort. After Muḥammad's death, the establishment of the caliphate by Abū Bakr on the basis of a privileged position for the tribe of Ḳurays̲h̲ as a whole, and the confiscation of Muḥammad's property, deprived the Prophet's Family of the special status, as they were disinherited and lost their title to their Ḳurʾānic share of the k̲h̲ums and fayʾ. The Banū Hās̲h̲im vainly protested against these developments by refusing to pledge allegiance to Abū Bakr for six months. The disestablishment of the Family of the Prophet after his death was the ultimate motive for the rise of the Shia."
-- Aminz 02:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
"Tensions escalated into what became the first civil war (the "First Fitna"), in which numerous companions of Muhammad sought to avenge the slaying of Uthman."
This may imply that Ali was responsible for slaying of Uthman. We should explain this in more details. -- Aminz 02:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
In relation to this edit of mine [13], please see [14] where I've asked Itaqallah to clarify the point. I just thought it would be good to add a reference here on the talk page. -- Aminz 03:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Assalam alaikum actually Islam was not found by Prophet Muhammed (P.B.U.H). many of the non-Muslims think Islam is found by Prophet Muhammed (P.B.U.H),as it is given in many of the websites also. Islam was started by first man on earth who was sent by God (Prophet Adam). Prophet Mohammed was the last Prophet sent by the God.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hishad ( talk • contribs)
Do featured articles get shown on the main page? When will this article be shown? Thanks.-- 0rrAvenger 10:50, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I just attempted to use the Sunni and Shi'a summary-style subtopic articles to get information about internal organizational differences between these two branches of Islam and about possible differences between them regarding views on advocacy of Separation of Church and State (and, if interested, please see changes I have made to that other article). I wasn't too successful in finding the information I was after in the mentioned subtopic articles.
I had the thought that it would have been useful to me as an information-seeker if the subtopic articles on the various branches of Islam were structured similarly to one another -- with similar section/subsection headings and section/subsection ordering, and thought that I would pass that thought along here. -- Boracay Bill 23:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I'm not overly keen on the whole tone of this article. references like the following text
Belief in the "Day of Resurrection", yawm al-Qiyāmah (also known as yawm ad-dīn, "Day of Judgment" and as-sā`a, "the Last Hour") is also crucial for Muslims. They believe that the time of Qiyāmah is preordained by God but unknown to man.
Seem to me to be obviously written in the third person and feel condescending, as if stating that the believe system is not true. Would it not be better to change "They believe" to a more neutral "It is believed"? - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.15.4 ( talk • contribs)
This artile is bound to have a bias and what caught my eye was teh so called Golden age between 750 and 1250. This is in fact at a time when the Arab conquests were stopped in the mid 8th century, the Byzantines launched successful counterattacks and when the Fatimid and Corduba caliphates emerged. The Crusades are mentioned only to mention Saladin's triumph in Hattin. A biref mention of these points regarding this age in my opinion would provide a more rounded version of the history of Islam and her respective kingdoms (which of course were far from united). Tourskin 22:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/Inter-religious content task force. Do people who edit religion articles want such a task force? If so or if not, speak out. -- Shirahadasha 17:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)