This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Semiprotected like Moslem to deal with recurring vandal. DJ Clayworth 22:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add some information on what virtues are considered most important among believers and practitioners of Islam?
Dominio 15:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Joturner wrote the following under the "Terrorism Portal" discussion: "No one has ever called Eric Rudolph or Timothy McVeigh "Christian terrorists", and yet everyday Islam is being connected with terror in this manner."
Muslims often attempt to make this analogy, however, it is clearly false. Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh had to violate the Bible's explicit and implicit commands when they did their dirty work. They also had to run counter to the example of Christ. Muslim terrorists, however, can call upon numerous passages from the Qu'ran and various Hadiths to validate their actions. Muhammad was also an incredibly violent man. Please don't say that I "don't understand real Islam." I know how to read. If you would like me to cite the references from the Qu'ran I will do so, but I think that you know them already. These are facts, not opinions. This analogy fails miserably. If you have any sort of response that doesn't involve calling me, either directly or indirectly, "ignorant," or "bigoted," I would love to hear it. RussianBoy 20:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
RussianBoy, you claimed that Prophet Muhammad (p) was an "incredibly violent man". I have absolutely no doubt that you are amongst the group of people who hate Islam before you read. This is just one type of bias and is similar to those who love an ideology/religion/belief before they read. You claim that you know how to read, and I have no doubt that you do; but I am very certain that you are selective about your reading. This can be changed. In essence, it may very well be the case that people such as Joturner are wasting their time with you. Before learning about religion, and Prophet Muhammad's struggle to create a perfect society in accordance with God's commands, you need to do what many people need to do: learn how to use your intellect. Intellect is a strong guide for many issues. Intellect instructs you to be free of unfounded bias. Intellect guides you to analyse a subject in the correct order, and in its entirety. With comments such as yours, it is clearly evident that you have failed to this. It also clearly indicates your intentions. Of course, your comments have been repeated by many people throughout the centuries, and they have been answered by people time and time again. For the mean time, I shall make it clear that all of Prophet Muhammad's battles were defensive, not offensive. Secondly, one of Prophet Muhammad's objectives was a peaceful society. The evidence for this is in absolute abundance. Please clear your prejudices before you contribute to an encyclopedia. I advise that you read
War, Peace and Non-violence: An Islamic Perspective by Ayatullah Muhammad Shirazi.
Adamcaliph 00:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
OK guys, I must say that you all have done what I had hoped you wouldn't do. To repeat myself, I don't doubt that the majority of Muslims condemn violence, and that there are many Islamic schools of thought with various and conflicting interpretations of the Qur'an. My point, however, is that there is an important distinction to make: the minority groups in Islam who resort to violence are not an aberration to Islam but in fact can legitimately claim to be working within the basic parameters of Islamic Jihad, whereas the Christian terrorists must betray the explicit teachings and example of Jesus Christ. In the temple, Jesus did not kill anyone, and we have no reason to believe that he got into any "fierce fist fighting," as you put it. Now, if he had his Qur'an with him at the time, he might have behaved differently, perhaps turning to 2:190-193, "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you... And slay them wherever ye catch them... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God..." Instead, when he and his disciples are accosted in the garden by armed men intending to do lethal violence, he tells Peter to put his sword away, and heals the man whom Peter wounded. How about 8:59-60: "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know..." All I am saying here is that those are strong words. Keep in mind, the Qur'an was supposedly dictated directly from God and is completely perfect. Finally, to the person who said that Muhammad wasn't violent, perhaps you should consider reading the earliest biography of the prophet Muhammad, written by Ibn Ishaq in the second century of the Islamic era, translated into English under the title The Life of Muhammad by A. Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press in 1955. It contains gems like this quote, attributed to the Prophet, "Kill any Jew that falls into your power." (369) Hmmm.... or how about the many examples of the Prophet ordering assassinations? (See pages, 551, 550, 672, etc., etc., ad nauseum.). So in conclusion, I would just like to ask you all to stop saying the Qur'an is a "peaceful" book. It isn't! I can give you a dozen more quotes if you want to press the issue. Now, are there also "peace loving" quotes? Yes there are. I guess God contradicts himself in your world. Fair enough. RussianBoy 18:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
When do we pay so much attention to someone who is probably just a chrisian missionary? He calls himself "Russianboy". People often bring this extremist crap here and they really don't know anything about the bible especially being so stupid as to lie and call it a peaceful book. Stuff in there will show you just how sanguine christians really are. Russianboy's rant shows that christians are getting more miserable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:70.50.122.30 ( talk • contribs) .
Mr. Anonymous, I am a bit puzzled by your comments and actions. First you delete someone else's comment about the possibility of WWMD bracelets, which was pretty funny, and then you accuse me of a "rant.". Let's see here, in my "rant," I responded to someone else's argument directly with a counter argument of my own, using specific examples from relevant texts, which I cited as fully as I could. Now in your, "non-rant," you accused me of being a "christian missionary [sic]" (ad hominem, I guess?), called my well reasoned arguments "extremist crap," said that I didn't, "know anything about the bible [sic]," even though you had just accused me of being a "christian missionary [sic]," called me "stupid," called me a liar, and then said that "christians [sic] are getting more miserable," all while failing to respond to even a single one of my arguments, or provide any evidence for your asserstions (such as when you called me a "stupid" liar, for example). Finally, you failed to sign your post. Yes, I guess I am the one who is "ranting." Perhaps I should delete your comment like you did to that other guy? Please, if there is anyone who has anything intelligent to say, I would love to hear it. RussianBoy 19:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
First of all, you quote me as saying, "But the Islamic scriptures are more violent than Christian/Jewish/..." While this does capture the idea that I was attempting to convey, I never used that particular combination of words and so I would appreciate it in the future if you would only put quotes around my exact words.
In your last post, you begin by apparently admitting that yes, the Islamic scriptures do have more, “violence potential,” as you put it: “If it has more violence potential, it is only a matter of degree.” Then, however, in later paragraphs, you distance yourself from this stance, and argue that in fact it is the Christian faith that has more violence potential due to the fact that it explicitly condemns violence, even when provoked: “If you would force me to choose one, I would hesitate but finally choose [as having more violence potential] the philosophy that convinces victims to: ‘accept pain, not fight back…’” You go on to say, that, “If you really really really want to link terror to texts, than all this terror is linked to the nonviolence in the Bible.” So now the Bible promotes terror by explicitly condemning violent acts? Sir, with all due respect to you as an intelligent man (and clearly you are), this is bordering on the nonsensical. If you had strong examples of Biblical passages encouraging violent behavior I would imagine that you would have used them by now. It appears that since you do not have any, you have tried this tactic where you equate non-violence with increased violence.
You mention the law that all homosexuals should be stoned, and point out, correctly, that it is present in all three religions. Yet it is only in the Christian scripture that the aforementioned law is explicitly overturned. A reoccurring theme in the New Testament is the replacement of the old Jewish law with the new. Therefore, if you can find any Christian church sanctioned examples of homosexual stoning, those individuals would clearly be in violation of the scripture, whereas the same could not be said about those Muslims who choose to do so (it’s a pretty safe bet that the lawmakers in Saudi-Arabia have studied Islamic scriptures far more than you or I have). Furthermore, you say that the homosexual stoning example is, “a matter of urbanization, or the lack of it” and then go on to say that homosexuality is a crime in Saudi-Arabia. Are the government officials in Saudi Arabia not sufficiently urbanized?
You discuss the CIA and its alleged links to what you would term terrorist activity: “The CIA should top the list of terrorist groups, but it isn't there.” You make this claim despite your later assertion that, “The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific.” I will overlook that for now. With regards to the CIA’s involvement in terrorist activities, even if you could conclusively demonstrate that the CIA is directly responsible for more terrorist activities than every other terrorist group combined, it would still be irrelevant to our discussion. This thread was started in order to examine whether or not the Islamic scriptures are more pro-terrorist than the Judeo-Christian. The CIA is not a Christian organization in any sense, and so I don’t see why you bother to bring this into the conversation, except perhaps as some sort of red herring.
I will return briefly to your assertion that, “The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific.” This is a very popular viewpoint in our day, but I really don’t think it holds much weight. My dictionary defines terrorism in this way: “The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.” If a person or group fits those criteria then they are guilty of terrorism. Where is the ambiguity there? If that makes the CIA a terrorist organization, then fair enough.
You write that, “The terrorism list is not a good argument in general, and especially not a good argument this discussion on religion [sic],” but you fail to explain why it is such a poor argument. You simply state that it is. Do you believe that many of the terrorist groups listed there are fictitious? Do you think that many of them have been wrongly placed under the Islamic heading? If not, then I don’t see how you can criticize my using that list to demonstrate a connection between Islam and terrorism. Do you believe that the overwhelming majority of Islamic terrorist groups on that list is just a coincidence?
Lastly, you write: “Saddam? He must be linked to Al-Qaeda. I hope this bastard will rot in hell in a very painful way... but the link of Saddam to terrorism was simply not true. It has even been proven wrong.” This stance has become fairly well accepted over the past year or so, but there is an increasing amount of evidence to the contrary. In Deroy Murdock’s January 13, 2006 article from the ‘’National Review Online’’ he outlines some of this evidence, along with powerful evidence to suggest that Saddam was not the great secularist that many believed him to be.
In conclusion, A.S., I do not feel that you have responded to the arguments I made prior to your last post. You made some claims about the root causes of terrorism, and I presented some reasons why I believe your analysis to be incorrect. You then proceeded to talk about everything but my arguments, instead choosing to explore the CIA’s activity and your theories on how non-violence actually is the root cause of violence. Nowhere did you directly take on my arguments. In the future I would suggest that you do so, and if you don’t have any counter-arguments, it is acceptable to say, “Well you know MCB, you might have a point there,” and we can call it a day. I won’t think any less of you. Mcb197 17:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Might i add, this entire arguement is based on ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS [ie not accurate, nor 100% correct] versions of the Quran. It is best when someone looks to the Quran for other than jsut reading [such as studiyng, etc] that he use the arabic version, which is unchanged, might i suggest ordering one from egypt, or lebenon, saudi arabia edits thier books. Don't know arabic?..oh well, learn it. You don't do trigganometry without learning algerbra, you don't study a religioun revealed in arabic, without first learning arabic, that much should seem obvious.[i am refering to the first part of the argument, of course :)] - cronodevir
"Since this discussion is not about revising the wiki-article anymore, we should continu it elsewhere. Wikipedia is not a discussion board [sic]." Looking through this talk page, you didn't seem to have a problem using it as a discussion board previously. It would seem that since you are unable to respond to any of my original arguments, you have resorted to calling off the discussion. Why can't you just admit that maybe I have a point? Your whole idea about terrorism only being the product of poverty and oppression was completely destroyed by my original post, and then after I picked apart your red herring of a response, you come back with more of the same. I have already explained to you why the CIA is not relevant to this discussion, and yet you keep talking about it, making statements like, "...the list today leaves out the 'God Bless American' CIA of which almost all officers are Christians..." Would you care to explain how you got this information? When you are finished, would you care to explain how, even if every single person associated with the CIA, all the way down to the washroom attendant, were a Bible-thumping fundamentalist it would be in any way relevant to our discussion? And then when you are finished with that, please explain why you continue to call the CIA a terrorist organization, even after you made the following statement: "The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific." You say things like, "The newly invented word 'Judeo-Christian tradition' is also utterly strange. Christians have supressed, abused and slaughtered Jews throughout all centuries. 'Judeo-Christian' is a bad joke [sic]." Is this statement a "bad joke?" Do I really need to explain this linkage? You persist in holding to the idea that, "Even a selected 'violent' passage of the Quran is many many times less violent than your 'nonviolent' passage of the Bible [sic]." Go ahead and read that sentence again, and let it sink in: "Even a selected 'violent' passage of the Quran is many many times less violent than your 'nonviolent' passage of the Bible [sic]." This is amazing. If there are any objective parties out there that wish to agree with that statement, I would invite them to do so now.
Sir, you have now twice refused to deal with my arguments, instead choosing to lead us down numerous rabbit trails in your inane attempt to defend the Islamic faith at all costs, refusing to admit even the most painfully obvious linkages between Islam and terrorism. When you have butted up against that to which you have no response, you choose to throw out red herrings. If you ever do think of any sort of response that actually addresses my criticisms, I would love to hear it. If not, then I wish you the best of luck as you continue your Muslim apologetic crusade. (At this point please, please don't respond with, "But I'm an atheist! I have no stake in religion!" You might very well be an atheist, I don't know you, but I do know what you do on Wikipedia, and you clearly, for whatever reason, are very interested in defending Islam. Again, I am not questioning your commitment to atheism. I don't know why you are so interested in Islam, but you clearly are. (At this point I'm feeling a, "No! I am just interested in defending truth!" coming on! Perhaps, accusing me of being "unscientific," one of your favorite pet-insults, would buttress your argument nicely?)) Mcb197 15:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The phrase, "like other religious communities" in the sentence, "Islamic communities, like other religious communities, often exclude those they regard as apostates and blasphemers from their community of believers" is irrelevant, POV and false. It is irrelevant because it doesn't matter what other religious communities do, this article is about Islam. It is POV because it is a deliberate attempt to cast Islam in a more favorable light. Finally, it is false to imply that this is the state of all other religious communities. That just isn't true. I would appreciate it if the user "Anonymous Editor" would please refrain from reverting without discussion. I really don't even see why this should be up for discussion at all. 24.130.228.70 05:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The list of See alsos is completely random and totally useless to anyone wanting to find out more about Islam. We had a reader asking questions at the Qur'an article the other day -- what does the Qur'an say about women? war? and other such hot topics. I pointed him to the correct articles -- the same ones that have endured trench warfare for the last year or two -- and then started thinking about why he would even ask such a question.
Seems to me it's because the hot topics are also the ones where the combat is hottest, and no one wants to send readers there. So we end up sending people to anodyne topics like Dawa and Adhan, which don't answer the questions they want answered.
I'll think this over and then come back with a list of suggested see alsos. Perhaps other people can think of lists? ones that emphasize the hot, difficult topics? Zora 10:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I might be wrong but how can anyone read "Daud" as "Dawood," which is David's arabic name. I suggest that transliterating names should be made to sound like the original even if it might look a little funny to the average english speaker/reader. -- A.Khalil 02:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Check out these photographs from the British Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/galleries/galleries.html?in_page_id=711&in_gallery_type_id=3 (see the 5th gallery down, first column)
I think we should post these photos in the article, and explain to the general public why these Muslims are cutting their children's heads with razors. This makes a lump of coal in the stocking look like a pretty tame holiday punishment. RussianBoy 19:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
CltFn added edited the intro in the following way: " Islam (Arabic: الإسلام; al-islām (listen (help•info)), "submission (to the will of the Islamic god)") is a monotheistic faith, one of the Abrahamic religions, and believed by some sources to be the world's second-largest religion. Followers of Islam are known as Muslims. Muslims believe that the entity they call God revealed his alleged divine word directly to mankind through many prophets and that Muhammad was the final prophet of Islam. "
First of All: When we say "Muslims believe that God revealed his divine word directly to mankind through many prophets and that Muhammad was the final prophet of Islam." then it is what Muslims believe and not what Non-Musilms believe. The change is unjustified to my mind.
Secondly, "submission (to the will of God)" was replaced with "submission (to the will of the Islamic god)"). This change is not honest for the following reasons: In the Christianity article we read:
"Jesus Christ as God" This should be changed to "Jesus Christ as christian god"
Please note that to jews, Christians are worshiping a different God. Jews are forbiden to enter Churches BUT they can enter mosques. See : http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=255&o=2400
Jews recognize Islamic God, but don't recognize Christian God. Christians recognize Jewish God but not Islamic God.
Muslims recognize Jewish God but not Jesus as God. Now, CltFn please tell me should I go over all the Christian related articles and change God with “christian god”?
-- Aminz 04:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this issue has been discussed before and if so, what the outcome was: the 'Beliefs' section outlines the main Sunni and Shia beliefs, but I think there should at least be a subsection on the five pillars of Islam, as it's one of the first things that non-Muslims, when first learning about Islam, associate (rightly so, as they are compulsory for most Muslims) with the religion. MP (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Is the phrase peace be upon him after mentioning the prophet appropriate for an encyclopedia article? This implies a narrative / personal article and potentially bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.3.154.95 ( talk • contribs) .
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
Semiprotected like Moslem to deal with recurring vandal. DJ Clayworth 22:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Could someone add some information on what virtues are considered most important among believers and practitioners of Islam?
Dominio 15:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Joturner wrote the following under the "Terrorism Portal" discussion: "No one has ever called Eric Rudolph or Timothy McVeigh "Christian terrorists", and yet everyday Islam is being connected with terror in this manner."
Muslims often attempt to make this analogy, however, it is clearly false. Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh had to violate the Bible's explicit and implicit commands when they did their dirty work. They also had to run counter to the example of Christ. Muslim terrorists, however, can call upon numerous passages from the Qu'ran and various Hadiths to validate their actions. Muhammad was also an incredibly violent man. Please don't say that I "don't understand real Islam." I know how to read. If you would like me to cite the references from the Qu'ran I will do so, but I think that you know them already. These are facts, not opinions. This analogy fails miserably. If you have any sort of response that doesn't involve calling me, either directly or indirectly, "ignorant," or "bigoted," I would love to hear it. RussianBoy 20:01, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
RussianBoy, you claimed that Prophet Muhammad (p) was an "incredibly violent man". I have absolutely no doubt that you are amongst the group of people who hate Islam before you read. This is just one type of bias and is similar to those who love an ideology/religion/belief before they read. You claim that you know how to read, and I have no doubt that you do; but I am very certain that you are selective about your reading. This can be changed. In essence, it may very well be the case that people such as Joturner are wasting their time with you. Before learning about religion, and Prophet Muhammad's struggle to create a perfect society in accordance with God's commands, you need to do what many people need to do: learn how to use your intellect. Intellect is a strong guide for many issues. Intellect instructs you to be free of unfounded bias. Intellect guides you to analyse a subject in the correct order, and in its entirety. With comments such as yours, it is clearly evident that you have failed to this. It also clearly indicates your intentions. Of course, your comments have been repeated by many people throughout the centuries, and they have been answered by people time and time again. For the mean time, I shall make it clear that all of Prophet Muhammad's battles were defensive, not offensive. Secondly, one of Prophet Muhammad's objectives was a peaceful society. The evidence for this is in absolute abundance. Please clear your prejudices before you contribute to an encyclopedia. I advise that you read
War, Peace and Non-violence: An Islamic Perspective by Ayatullah Muhammad Shirazi.
Adamcaliph 00:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
OK guys, I must say that you all have done what I had hoped you wouldn't do. To repeat myself, I don't doubt that the majority of Muslims condemn violence, and that there are many Islamic schools of thought with various and conflicting interpretations of the Qur'an. My point, however, is that there is an important distinction to make: the minority groups in Islam who resort to violence are not an aberration to Islam but in fact can legitimately claim to be working within the basic parameters of Islamic Jihad, whereas the Christian terrorists must betray the explicit teachings and example of Jesus Christ. In the temple, Jesus did not kill anyone, and we have no reason to believe that he got into any "fierce fist fighting," as you put it. Now, if he had his Qur'an with him at the time, he might have behaved differently, perhaps turning to 2:190-193, "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you... And slay them wherever ye catch them... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God..." Instead, when he and his disciples are accosted in the garden by armed men intending to do lethal violence, he tells Peter to put his sword away, and heals the man whom Peter wounded. How about 8:59-60: "Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know..." All I am saying here is that those are strong words. Keep in mind, the Qur'an was supposedly dictated directly from God and is completely perfect. Finally, to the person who said that Muhammad wasn't violent, perhaps you should consider reading the earliest biography of the prophet Muhammad, written by Ibn Ishaq in the second century of the Islamic era, translated into English under the title The Life of Muhammad by A. Guillaume and published by Oxford University Press in 1955. It contains gems like this quote, attributed to the Prophet, "Kill any Jew that falls into your power." (369) Hmmm.... or how about the many examples of the Prophet ordering assassinations? (See pages, 551, 550, 672, etc., etc., ad nauseum.). So in conclusion, I would just like to ask you all to stop saying the Qur'an is a "peaceful" book. It isn't! I can give you a dozen more quotes if you want to press the issue. Now, are there also "peace loving" quotes? Yes there are. I guess God contradicts himself in your world. Fair enough. RussianBoy 18:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
When do we pay so much attention to someone who is probably just a chrisian missionary? He calls himself "Russianboy". People often bring this extremist crap here and they really don't know anything about the bible especially being so stupid as to lie and call it a peaceful book. Stuff in there will show you just how sanguine christians really are. Russianboy's rant shows that christians are getting more miserable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:70.50.122.30 ( talk • contribs) .
Mr. Anonymous, I am a bit puzzled by your comments and actions. First you delete someone else's comment about the possibility of WWMD bracelets, which was pretty funny, and then you accuse me of a "rant.". Let's see here, in my "rant," I responded to someone else's argument directly with a counter argument of my own, using specific examples from relevant texts, which I cited as fully as I could. Now in your, "non-rant," you accused me of being a "christian missionary [sic]" (ad hominem, I guess?), called my well reasoned arguments "extremist crap," said that I didn't, "know anything about the bible [sic]," even though you had just accused me of being a "christian missionary [sic]," called me "stupid," called me a liar, and then said that "christians [sic] are getting more miserable," all while failing to respond to even a single one of my arguments, or provide any evidence for your asserstions (such as when you called me a "stupid" liar, for example). Finally, you failed to sign your post. Yes, I guess I am the one who is "ranting." Perhaps I should delete your comment like you did to that other guy? Please, if there is anyone who has anything intelligent to say, I would love to hear it. RussianBoy 19:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
First of all, you quote me as saying, "But the Islamic scriptures are more violent than Christian/Jewish/..." While this does capture the idea that I was attempting to convey, I never used that particular combination of words and so I would appreciate it in the future if you would only put quotes around my exact words.
In your last post, you begin by apparently admitting that yes, the Islamic scriptures do have more, “violence potential,” as you put it: “If it has more violence potential, it is only a matter of degree.” Then, however, in later paragraphs, you distance yourself from this stance, and argue that in fact it is the Christian faith that has more violence potential due to the fact that it explicitly condemns violence, even when provoked: “If you would force me to choose one, I would hesitate but finally choose [as having more violence potential] the philosophy that convinces victims to: ‘accept pain, not fight back…’” You go on to say, that, “If you really really really want to link terror to texts, than all this terror is linked to the nonviolence in the Bible.” So now the Bible promotes terror by explicitly condemning violent acts? Sir, with all due respect to you as an intelligent man (and clearly you are), this is bordering on the nonsensical. If you had strong examples of Biblical passages encouraging violent behavior I would imagine that you would have used them by now. It appears that since you do not have any, you have tried this tactic where you equate non-violence with increased violence.
You mention the law that all homosexuals should be stoned, and point out, correctly, that it is present in all three religions. Yet it is only in the Christian scripture that the aforementioned law is explicitly overturned. A reoccurring theme in the New Testament is the replacement of the old Jewish law with the new. Therefore, if you can find any Christian church sanctioned examples of homosexual stoning, those individuals would clearly be in violation of the scripture, whereas the same could not be said about those Muslims who choose to do so (it’s a pretty safe bet that the lawmakers in Saudi-Arabia have studied Islamic scriptures far more than you or I have). Furthermore, you say that the homosexual stoning example is, “a matter of urbanization, or the lack of it” and then go on to say that homosexuality is a crime in Saudi-Arabia. Are the government officials in Saudi Arabia not sufficiently urbanized?
You discuss the CIA and its alleged links to what you would term terrorist activity: “The CIA should top the list of terrorist groups, but it isn't there.” You make this claim despite your later assertion that, “The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific.” I will overlook that for now. With regards to the CIA’s involvement in terrorist activities, even if you could conclusively demonstrate that the CIA is directly responsible for more terrorist activities than every other terrorist group combined, it would still be irrelevant to our discussion. This thread was started in order to examine whether or not the Islamic scriptures are more pro-terrorist than the Judeo-Christian. The CIA is not a Christian organization in any sense, and so I don’t see why you bother to bring this into the conversation, except perhaps as some sort of red herring.
I will return briefly to your assertion that, “The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific.” This is a very popular viewpoint in our day, but I really don’t think it holds much weight. My dictionary defines terrorism in this way: “The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.” If a person or group fits those criteria then they are guilty of terrorism. Where is the ambiguity there? If that makes the CIA a terrorist organization, then fair enough.
You write that, “The terrorism list is not a good argument in general, and especially not a good argument this discussion on religion [sic],” but you fail to explain why it is such a poor argument. You simply state that it is. Do you believe that many of the terrorist groups listed there are fictitious? Do you think that many of them have been wrongly placed under the Islamic heading? If not, then I don’t see how you can criticize my using that list to demonstrate a connection between Islam and terrorism. Do you believe that the overwhelming majority of Islamic terrorist groups on that list is just a coincidence?
Lastly, you write: “Saddam? He must be linked to Al-Qaeda. I hope this bastard will rot in hell in a very painful way... but the link of Saddam to terrorism was simply not true. It has even been proven wrong.” This stance has become fairly well accepted over the past year or so, but there is an increasing amount of evidence to the contrary. In Deroy Murdock’s January 13, 2006 article from the ‘’National Review Online’’ he outlines some of this evidence, along with powerful evidence to suggest that Saddam was not the great secularist that many believed him to be.
In conclusion, A.S., I do not feel that you have responded to the arguments I made prior to your last post. You made some claims about the root causes of terrorism, and I presented some reasons why I believe your analysis to be incorrect. You then proceeded to talk about everything but my arguments, instead choosing to explore the CIA’s activity and your theories on how non-violence actually is the root cause of violence. Nowhere did you directly take on my arguments. In the future I would suggest that you do so, and if you don’t have any counter-arguments, it is acceptable to say, “Well you know MCB, you might have a point there,” and we can call it a day. I won’t think any less of you. Mcb197 17:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Might i add, this entire arguement is based on ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS [ie not accurate, nor 100% correct] versions of the Quran. It is best when someone looks to the Quran for other than jsut reading [such as studiyng, etc] that he use the arabic version, which is unchanged, might i suggest ordering one from egypt, or lebenon, saudi arabia edits thier books. Don't know arabic?..oh well, learn it. You don't do trigganometry without learning algerbra, you don't study a religioun revealed in arabic, without first learning arabic, that much should seem obvious.[i am refering to the first part of the argument, of course :)] - cronodevir
"Since this discussion is not about revising the wiki-article anymore, we should continu it elsewhere. Wikipedia is not a discussion board [sic]." Looking through this talk page, you didn't seem to have a problem using it as a discussion board previously. It would seem that since you are unable to respond to any of my original arguments, you have resorted to calling off the discussion. Why can't you just admit that maybe I have a point? Your whole idea about terrorism only being the product of poverty and oppression was completely destroyed by my original post, and then after I picked apart your red herring of a response, you come back with more of the same. I have already explained to you why the CIA is not relevant to this discussion, and yet you keep talking about it, making statements like, "...the list today leaves out the 'God Bless American' CIA of which almost all officers are Christians..." Would you care to explain how you got this information? When you are finished, would you care to explain how, even if every single person associated with the CIA, all the way down to the washroom attendant, were a Bible-thumping fundamentalist it would be in any way relevant to our discussion? And then when you are finished with that, please explain why you continue to call the CIA a terrorist organization, even after you made the following statement: "The paradigm today of calling some things 'terrorist' is utterly POV and unscientific." You say things like, "The newly invented word 'Judeo-Christian tradition' is also utterly strange. Christians have supressed, abused and slaughtered Jews throughout all centuries. 'Judeo-Christian' is a bad joke [sic]." Is this statement a "bad joke?" Do I really need to explain this linkage? You persist in holding to the idea that, "Even a selected 'violent' passage of the Quran is many many times less violent than your 'nonviolent' passage of the Bible [sic]." Go ahead and read that sentence again, and let it sink in: "Even a selected 'violent' passage of the Quran is many many times less violent than your 'nonviolent' passage of the Bible [sic]." This is amazing. If there are any objective parties out there that wish to agree with that statement, I would invite them to do so now.
Sir, you have now twice refused to deal with my arguments, instead choosing to lead us down numerous rabbit trails in your inane attempt to defend the Islamic faith at all costs, refusing to admit even the most painfully obvious linkages between Islam and terrorism. When you have butted up against that to which you have no response, you choose to throw out red herrings. If you ever do think of any sort of response that actually addresses my criticisms, I would love to hear it. If not, then I wish you the best of luck as you continue your Muslim apologetic crusade. (At this point please, please don't respond with, "But I'm an atheist! I have no stake in religion!" You might very well be an atheist, I don't know you, but I do know what you do on Wikipedia, and you clearly, for whatever reason, are very interested in defending Islam. Again, I am not questioning your commitment to atheism. I don't know why you are so interested in Islam, but you clearly are. (At this point I'm feeling a, "No! I am just interested in defending truth!" coming on! Perhaps, accusing me of being "unscientific," one of your favorite pet-insults, would buttress your argument nicely?)) Mcb197 15:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The phrase, "like other religious communities" in the sentence, "Islamic communities, like other religious communities, often exclude those they regard as apostates and blasphemers from their community of believers" is irrelevant, POV and false. It is irrelevant because it doesn't matter what other religious communities do, this article is about Islam. It is POV because it is a deliberate attempt to cast Islam in a more favorable light. Finally, it is false to imply that this is the state of all other religious communities. That just isn't true. I would appreciate it if the user "Anonymous Editor" would please refrain from reverting without discussion. I really don't even see why this should be up for discussion at all. 24.130.228.70 05:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The list of See alsos is completely random and totally useless to anyone wanting to find out more about Islam. We had a reader asking questions at the Qur'an article the other day -- what does the Qur'an say about women? war? and other such hot topics. I pointed him to the correct articles -- the same ones that have endured trench warfare for the last year or two -- and then started thinking about why he would even ask such a question.
Seems to me it's because the hot topics are also the ones where the combat is hottest, and no one wants to send readers there. So we end up sending people to anodyne topics like Dawa and Adhan, which don't answer the questions they want answered.
I'll think this over and then come back with a list of suggested see alsos. Perhaps other people can think of lists? ones that emphasize the hot, difficult topics? Zora 10:47, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I might be wrong but how can anyone read "Daud" as "Dawood," which is David's arabic name. I suggest that transliterating names should be made to sound like the original even if it might look a little funny to the average english speaker/reader. -- A.Khalil 02:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Check out these photographs from the British Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/galleries/galleries.html?in_page_id=711&in_gallery_type_id=3 (see the 5th gallery down, first column)
I think we should post these photos in the article, and explain to the general public why these Muslims are cutting their children's heads with razors. This makes a lump of coal in the stocking look like a pretty tame holiday punishment. RussianBoy 19:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
CltFn added edited the intro in the following way: " Islam (Arabic: الإسلام; al-islām (listen (help•info)), "submission (to the will of the Islamic god)") is a monotheistic faith, one of the Abrahamic religions, and believed by some sources to be the world's second-largest religion. Followers of Islam are known as Muslims. Muslims believe that the entity they call God revealed his alleged divine word directly to mankind through many prophets and that Muhammad was the final prophet of Islam. "
First of All: When we say "Muslims believe that God revealed his divine word directly to mankind through many prophets and that Muhammad was the final prophet of Islam." then it is what Muslims believe and not what Non-Musilms believe. The change is unjustified to my mind.
Secondly, "submission (to the will of God)" was replaced with "submission (to the will of the Islamic god)"). This change is not honest for the following reasons: In the Christianity article we read:
"Jesus Christ as God" This should be changed to "Jesus Christ as christian god"
Please note that to jews, Christians are worshiping a different God. Jews are forbiden to enter Churches BUT they can enter mosques. See : http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=255&o=2400
Jews recognize Islamic God, but don't recognize Christian God. Christians recognize Jewish God but not Islamic God.
Muslims recognize Jewish God but not Jesus as God. Now, CltFn please tell me should I go over all the Christian related articles and change God with “christian god”?
-- Aminz 04:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if this issue has been discussed before and if so, what the outcome was: the 'Beliefs' section outlines the main Sunni and Shia beliefs, but I think there should at least be a subsection on the five pillars of Islam, as it's one of the first things that non-Muslims, when first learning about Islam, associate (rightly so, as they are compulsory for most Muslims) with the religion. MP (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Is the phrase peace be upon him after mentioning the prophet appropriate for an encyclopedia article? This implies a narrative / personal article and potentially bias. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.3.154.95 ( talk • contribs) .