![]() | Ishango bone was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
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Current status: Delisted good article |
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Chopperology.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 00:50, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article claims that the bone is an example of Egyptian multiplication. Could someone please point it out more explicitly to me? I don't see what's being multiplied, or what the result is. And yes, I understand the concept of Egyptian multiplication. - Rwv37 18:10, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe the modern scholarly concensus dates this bone to approximately 6,500 BC. I've changed the date.
See the following paper for the age. The "consensus" is false. Brooks A.S. and Smith C.C., 1987 "Ishango revisited: new age determinations and cultural interpretations" The African Archaeological Review, 5 : 65-78.
The Ishango bone is a tally stick, made of bone, which contains 3 sequences of grouped carvings. The bone was found in the area of what are now the headwaters of the Nile River. The bone has three rows of notches, with the row a) below having 2 sets of numbers in excess-one format, base 10: 9,19, 21,11. Row b) is a descending series of prime numbers from 19; row c) continues the series of prime numbers, down to 5; row c) then contains multiples of 3, 4 and 5, in an example of Egyptian multiplication.
(a) | 9 | 19 | 21 | 11 | ||||
(b) | 19 | 17 | 13 | 11 | ||||
(c) | 7 | 5 | 5 | 10 | 8 | 4 | 6 | 3 |
Originally from Africa, this artifact now resides at the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences, Brussels, Belgium. The bone is dated to around 18,000 BC. [1]
The middle column begins with 3 notches, and then doubles to 6 notches. The process is repeated for the number 4, which doubles to 8 notches, and then reversed for the number 10, which is halved to 5 notches. These numbers then, are not purely random and instead suggests some understanding of the principle of multiplication and division by 2. The bone may therefore have been used as a counting tool for simple mathematical procedures.
Furthermore, the number of notches on either side of the central column indicate more counting prowess. The numbers on both the left and right column are all odd numbers (9, 11, 13, 17, 19 and 21). Furthermore, the numbers on the left column are all prime numbers, demonstrating some mathematical knowledge. The numbers on each side column add up to 60, with the numbers in the central column adding up to 48. Both of these numbers are multiples of 12, again suggesting an understanding of multiplication and division.
I removed the following, from a sentence beginning with - The Ishango grouping may have been used to construct a number system "which is speculated to have spread north to Egypt and contributed to the development of mathematics". We would definitely need a reliable source on this, this speculation seems highly unlikely to me. This number system from 20,000 years ago is speculated to have spread to egypt, appearing over 10,000 years later in the egyptian mathematics? Given the gap of many millennia, one would need serious evidence to make this claim. -- Xyzzyplugh 13:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
HEY UM THE AFRICANS CREATED MATH WHATS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THEY CREATED EVERYTHING ELSE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.86.8 ( talk) 22:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reassessed as part of the GA Sweeps project. I have found a couple of problems with the article that make further work necessary to keep it at GA status. Here is my review, my concerns are references and comprehensiveness. Please contact me on my talk page if you have specific questions. I will hold the article for a week and then reevaluate. H1nkles ( talk) 15:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I cannot explain how this ever became a GA in the first place without assuming that the GA assessment process is utterly and completely broken. This article is closer to {{ hoax}} than to GA. -- dab (𒁳) 15:20, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Peter Rudman's "How Mathematics Happened: The First 50,000 Years", has a nice discussion on the validity of the speculations. The concept of the prime numbers for example cannot predate the division concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.9.243.47 ( talk) 04:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences website there are two ishango bones. The first is the most well known with the 168 notches and a piece of quartz in one end. The second bone has an opening in one end with 90 major and minor notches on six sides.
http://ishango.naturalsciences.be/Flash/flash_local/Ishango-02-EN.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhotep ( talk • contribs) 01:13, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Whilst the English-speaking world is still seeking a suited reading of the bone to fit the conclusion already decided (scientists, when operating outside their domain, tend to be gullible) the French have already faced what is probably the truth: there is no mathematical meaning in the bone's engravings - it's in the eye of the beholder
http://www.bibnum.education.fr/sites/default/files/ishango-analysis_v2.pdf
Note that this article mentions that there are dozens of similar engraved bones in the drawers of French musea, waiting for naive mathematicians to be "interpreted". Also note that another bone, from Czechia, has 55 marks in it. Some see them divided in groups of 5. Some don't. There is nothing.
but once someone decided that something is mysterious, there is no way back: read Charles Dickens' Pickwick Papers, where the "learned" M. Pickwick finds an engraved stone and decides it to be a mysterious archeological find. It reads BILST UMP SHI S.M. ARK. After M. Pickwick's declaration, no member of the Pickwick Society is willing anymore to accept the simple interpretation of the hieroglyphs, given by a spoilsport (namely, the text means BILL STUMPS HIS MARK). If so many learned men have wondered at it, it can't be simple any more.
Riyadi (
talk) 22:52, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
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The marks' layout is clearly not optimized for legibility. Prime example of scientists "seeing what they want to see", or rather, creating the outcome that brings the most publications, fame, and funding.
@ Chopperology: Hello. Regarding your edit here [ [2]], you seem to be removing sourced and relevant information without an explanation. This is the second time you have done so in that section. I previously explained the reasons your edit, including the removal of relevant sourced information, was problematic, and have done so again in the edit notes. The information you removed without explanation includes: Pletser and Huylebrouk's reply to Keller, Huylebrouks statements which provide a context for the Joseph quote you added, and a statement from Joseph himself directly sourced to his writing which gives a better and fuller idea of his views on the Ishango bone (your edit seems to misleadingly suggest that Joseph doubts that the bone was a mathematical object, which is very much not the case, and which my edit makes clear with the added quote from him in addition to yours). Also the statement that Joseph "discredits the simultaneous mathematical and astrological use of the object" is not really supported by the source. "Discredits" is a non-neutral term (and suggests more certainty than warranted by one source and also is not supported by the Joseph quote provided by Huylebrouk). The source you cite is by Huylebrouk (not Joseph) and only mentions and quotes Joseph briefly, and the statement that the object is unlikely to have been simultaneously both mathematical and astronomical (not "astrological") is Huylebrouk's not Joseph's (Huylebrouk says, "to credit the computational and astronomical reading simultaneously would be far-fetched", then quotes Joseph afterward), but both he and Joseph in their respective sources (which I made sure to include and quote) state that the object was mathematical and more than a tally stick (important information and context which you removed with no explanation). All of this is explained with quotes and citations on my edit. You also added unsourced commentary (e.g. "Keller and Joseph unanimously assert that far-fetched speculations such as these hinder valid research efforts and make light of significant archaeological discoveries") which is not explicit in the source and seems to violate Wikipedia policy against WP:SYNTH/ WP:NOR, especially given that you (for some reason) deleted relevant information on Joseph's other views on the bone as well as those of Huylebrouk (from Huylebrouk's own source you added that mentions Joseph), the other quote and ref from Joseph himself, and Huykebrouk and Pletser (in response to Keller) from the section. I was asked by User:Ninafundisha in an edit summary to give you some lattitude in making decisions about formatting, organization etc. I understand this/that is certainly fair and I since have (and will certainly continue to do so) but I do not think that lattitude includes the removal of sourced material/relevant context and additions without explanation and the reinstatement of misleading edits (after explanations have been given regarding the issues). I have for now restored the material you removed and my phrasing, which I believe significantly more closely follows the sources. But I have not reverted your numerous other recent and earlier edits (as there don't seem to be any problems with those other edits). If you have any objections please discuss them here to reach WP:CONSENSUS instead of reinstating the disputed edit again. Thank you. Skllagyook ( talk) 23:59, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello. The edits I have made only include the removal of non-credible resources, and have rewritten the ideas presented to include academic, reliable sources. Please let us work together on this page to ensure it’s academic integrity. Chopperology ( talk) 15:02, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
![]() | Ishango bone was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 8 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Chopperology.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 00:50, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article claims that the bone is an example of Egyptian multiplication. Could someone please point it out more explicitly to me? I don't see what's being multiplied, or what the result is. And yes, I understand the concept of Egyptian multiplication. - Rwv37 18:10, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe the modern scholarly concensus dates this bone to approximately 6,500 BC. I've changed the date.
See the following paper for the age. The "consensus" is false. Brooks A.S. and Smith C.C., 1987 "Ishango revisited: new age determinations and cultural interpretations" The African Archaeological Review, 5 : 65-78.
The Ishango bone is a tally stick, made of bone, which contains 3 sequences of grouped carvings. The bone was found in the area of what are now the headwaters of the Nile River. The bone has three rows of notches, with the row a) below having 2 sets of numbers in excess-one format, base 10: 9,19, 21,11. Row b) is a descending series of prime numbers from 19; row c) continues the series of prime numbers, down to 5; row c) then contains multiples of 3, 4 and 5, in an example of Egyptian multiplication.
(a) | 9 | 19 | 21 | 11 | ||||
(b) | 19 | 17 | 13 | 11 | ||||
(c) | 7 | 5 | 5 | 10 | 8 | 4 | 6 | 3 |
Originally from Africa, this artifact now resides at the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences, Brussels, Belgium. The bone is dated to around 18,000 BC. [1]
The middle column begins with 3 notches, and then doubles to 6 notches. The process is repeated for the number 4, which doubles to 8 notches, and then reversed for the number 10, which is halved to 5 notches. These numbers then, are not purely random and instead suggests some understanding of the principle of multiplication and division by 2. The bone may therefore have been used as a counting tool for simple mathematical procedures.
Furthermore, the number of notches on either side of the central column indicate more counting prowess. The numbers on both the left and right column are all odd numbers (9, 11, 13, 17, 19 and 21). Furthermore, the numbers on the left column are all prime numbers, demonstrating some mathematical knowledge. The numbers on each side column add up to 60, with the numbers in the central column adding up to 48. Both of these numbers are multiples of 12, again suggesting an understanding of multiplication and division.
I removed the following, from a sentence beginning with - The Ishango grouping may have been used to construct a number system "which is speculated to have spread north to Egypt and contributed to the development of mathematics". We would definitely need a reliable source on this, this speculation seems highly unlikely to me. This number system from 20,000 years ago is speculated to have spread to egypt, appearing over 10,000 years later in the egyptian mathematics? Given the gap of many millennia, one would need serious evidence to make this claim. -- Xyzzyplugh 13:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
HEY UM THE AFRICANS CREATED MATH WHATS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THEY CREATED EVERYTHING ELSE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.86.8 ( talk) 22:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
This article has been reassessed as part of the GA Sweeps project. I have found a couple of problems with the article that make further work necessary to keep it at GA status. Here is my review, my concerns are references and comprehensiveness. Please contact me on my talk page if you have specific questions. I will hold the article for a week and then reevaluate. H1nkles ( talk) 15:32, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I cannot explain how this ever became a GA in the first place without assuming that the GA assessment process is utterly and completely broken. This article is closer to {{ hoax}} than to GA. -- dab (𒁳) 15:20, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Peter Rudman's "How Mathematics Happened: The First 50,000 Years", has a nice discussion on the validity of the speculations. The concept of the prime numbers for example cannot predate the division concept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.9.243.47 ( talk) 04:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural Sciences website there are two ishango bones. The first is the most well known with the 168 notches and a piece of quartz in one end. The second bone has an opening in one end with 90 major and minor notches on six sides.
http://ishango.naturalsciences.be/Flash/flash_local/Ishango-02-EN.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhotep ( talk • contribs) 01:13, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Whilst the English-speaking world is still seeking a suited reading of the bone to fit the conclusion already decided (scientists, when operating outside their domain, tend to be gullible) the French have already faced what is probably the truth: there is no mathematical meaning in the bone's engravings - it's in the eye of the beholder
http://www.bibnum.education.fr/sites/default/files/ishango-analysis_v2.pdf
Note that this article mentions that there are dozens of similar engraved bones in the drawers of French musea, waiting for naive mathematicians to be "interpreted". Also note that another bone, from Czechia, has 55 marks in it. Some see them divided in groups of 5. Some don't. There is nothing.
but once someone decided that something is mysterious, there is no way back: read Charles Dickens' Pickwick Papers, where the "learned" M. Pickwick finds an engraved stone and decides it to be a mysterious archeological find. It reads BILST UMP SHI S.M. ARK. After M. Pickwick's declaration, no member of the Pickwick Society is willing anymore to accept the simple interpretation of the hieroglyphs, given by a spoilsport (namely, the text means BILL STUMPS HIS MARK). If so many learned men have wondered at it, it can't be simple any more.
Riyadi (
talk) 22:52, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Ishango bone. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:09, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
The marks' layout is clearly not optimized for legibility. Prime example of scientists "seeing what they want to see", or rather, creating the outcome that brings the most publications, fame, and funding.
@ Chopperology: Hello. Regarding your edit here [ [2]], you seem to be removing sourced and relevant information without an explanation. This is the second time you have done so in that section. I previously explained the reasons your edit, including the removal of relevant sourced information, was problematic, and have done so again in the edit notes. The information you removed without explanation includes: Pletser and Huylebrouk's reply to Keller, Huylebrouks statements which provide a context for the Joseph quote you added, and a statement from Joseph himself directly sourced to his writing which gives a better and fuller idea of his views on the Ishango bone (your edit seems to misleadingly suggest that Joseph doubts that the bone was a mathematical object, which is very much not the case, and which my edit makes clear with the added quote from him in addition to yours). Also the statement that Joseph "discredits the simultaneous mathematical and astrological use of the object" is not really supported by the source. "Discredits" is a non-neutral term (and suggests more certainty than warranted by one source and also is not supported by the Joseph quote provided by Huylebrouk). The source you cite is by Huylebrouk (not Joseph) and only mentions and quotes Joseph briefly, and the statement that the object is unlikely to have been simultaneously both mathematical and astronomical (not "astrological") is Huylebrouk's not Joseph's (Huylebrouk says, "to credit the computational and astronomical reading simultaneously would be far-fetched", then quotes Joseph afterward), but both he and Joseph in their respective sources (which I made sure to include and quote) state that the object was mathematical and more than a tally stick (important information and context which you removed with no explanation). All of this is explained with quotes and citations on my edit. You also added unsourced commentary (e.g. "Keller and Joseph unanimously assert that far-fetched speculations such as these hinder valid research efforts and make light of significant archaeological discoveries") which is not explicit in the source and seems to violate Wikipedia policy against WP:SYNTH/ WP:NOR, especially given that you (for some reason) deleted relevant information on Joseph's other views on the bone as well as those of Huylebrouk (from Huylebrouk's own source you added that mentions Joseph), the other quote and ref from Joseph himself, and Huykebrouk and Pletser (in response to Keller) from the section. I was asked by User:Ninafundisha in an edit summary to give you some lattitude in making decisions about formatting, organization etc. I understand this/that is certainly fair and I since have (and will certainly continue to do so) but I do not think that lattitude includes the removal of sourced material/relevant context and additions without explanation and the reinstatement of misleading edits (after explanations have been given regarding the issues). I have for now restored the material you removed and my phrasing, which I believe significantly more closely follows the sources. But I have not reverted your numerous other recent and earlier edits (as there don't seem to be any problems with those other edits). If you have any objections please discuss them here to reach WP:CONSENSUS instead of reinstating the disputed edit again. Thank you. Skllagyook ( talk) 23:59, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Hello. The edits I have made only include the removal of non-credible resources, and have rewritten the ideas presented to include academic, reliable sources. Please let us work together on this page to ensure it’s academic integrity. Chopperology ( talk) 15:02, 10 November 2021 (UTC)