![]() | Irredentism has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
![]() | A
fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
September 12, 2023. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 is an example of
irredentism? | ||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Since a irredentist desire is in the constitution of the Republic of Ireland it is in the wrong section. The change in 1999 removed the territorial claim, but did not remove the irredentist desire from its constitution: Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.
Article 3
It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions"
@ Roger 8 Roger:. The article discusses the conflict between historical disputes, sometimes based on the people or ethnicity of a land, and the conflicting or disregard that an irredentist claim may have for its people. I quote: "Usually, irredentism is defined in terms of the motivation of the irredentist state, even if the territory is annexed against the will of the local population." If we are discussing the rationale for the ongoing status of the Falklands, it is relevant to address the historical land claim in context of the people who live there and not merely a diplomatic maneuver or argument over rocks in the ocean. The article as written before also implies that the Falklands remain only in British hands because of firepower. It was a very oddly phrased paragraph and should expand on the claim's context after the Falklands War, when 40 years of history have passed.
Zkidwiki ( talk) 18:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Current text:
“ | Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, Argentina tried to seize the Falkland Islands. They were under British control since 1833 but Argentina's claims on them date back before that. Britain managed to decide the conflict in its favor and remained in control due to its superior military force and strong international support. In the intervening time, Falkland Islanders have voted in 1986 and 2013 to remain a British overseas dependency, the latter with 99.8% of votes in favor. Despite these setbacks, Argentina has upheld its claim on the Falkland Islands to this day.[6][51][52] | ” |
I don't think this explains the issue at all well. The text as written focuses on the war, with the none too subtle implication the UK prevailed because of might not right. As such it implies some support for Argentina in Wikipedia's voice. I welcome the addition of reference to the referendum, since it introduces the voice of the islanders in a neutral manner; they are usually forgotten. If I may suggest changing to the following.
“ | Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, the unpopulr Argentine military government attempted to exploit the national sentiment over the claim to the islands and seized the islands. After a brief but intensive conflict, British forces retook the islands restoring British rule. Falkland Islanders have since voted twice (in 1986 and 2013) to remain a British overseas territory, the latter in a referendum organised by the Falkland Islands Government with 99.8% of votes in favour. Argentina continues to press its claim to the Falkland Islands and pursues an aggressive diplomatic campaign to that end | ” |
.
A suggestion only, feel free to improve. W C M email 14:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, Argentina tried to seize the Falkland Islands. They were under British control since 1833 but Argentina's claims on them date back before that. Britain managed to decide the conflict in its favor and remained in control due to its superior military force and strong international support. Despite its defeat, Argentina has upheld its claim on the Falkland Islands to this day.
Disputes over the sovereignty of the islands have occurred since the 18th century, as the islands are actually located within the Argentinean continental platform. However, in spite of many Argentinean claims, in 1833 British troops and inhabitants took possession of the islands.
Zkidwiki ( talk) 19:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, Argentina under the government of the National Reorganization Process attempted seize the Falklands and the island of South Georgia, two British Overseas Territories in the South Atlantic. After a brief conflict, British forces resisted the invasion. Falkland Islanders have since voted twice (in 1986 and 2013) to remain a British overseas territory, the latter concluding with 99.8% of votes in favour. Argentina continues to press its claim to the Falkland Islands.
Ackermann, Marsha E.; Schroeder, Michael J.; Terry, Janice J.; Upshur, Jiu-Hwa Lo; Whitters, Mark F., eds. (2008a). Encyclopedia of world history: Volume 6. New York: Facts on File. ISBN 9780816063864.. This is not the "Juan Ackerman" you are referring to. Does that address your concern about WP:FRINGE?
They were under British control since 1833 but Argentina's claims on them date back before that.implies that the Argentine claim is older than the British claim. But if that is a concern, we could reformulate this phrase to make it explicit:
They were under British control since 1833 but Argentina's claims on them date back before Britain took control. If we want to emphasize that both Argentina and Britain had claims before that, we could use
They were under British control since 1833 but both Argentina's and Britain's claims on them date back before that.Phlsph7 ( talk) 07:45, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
In 1982, Argentina tried to seize the Falkland Islands.to
In 1982, the Argentine military government exploited nationalistic sentiment in its attempt to seize the islands.to address that issue. We would need to add the following source to support this claim:
Goebel, Michael (1 January 2011). Argentina's Partisan Past: Nationalism and the Politics of History. Liverpool University Press. p. 182. ISBN 978-1-84631-238-0.. Phlsph7 ( talk) 09:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with all that. My point is that the space it takes to express that isn't justified in this article, although someone with the necessary skills might be able to sum it up in a couple of lines, as you have sort of just done. If anything is to be mentioned about Argentina's irredentist claim I think it should be about supposedly inheriting the Spanish claim, but that isn't straightforward either. Alternatively, mention of being evicted from a legitimately established settlement in 1833 (according to Argentina). I agree if the war is mentioned it should be as an expression of a (weak) irredentist claim either. The way the was inserted though, reads as if the war and the referendum should have put an end to Argentina's irredentist thinking, which it doesn't. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 08:30, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
Despite its defeat and popular votes by the local population to remain part of Britain, Argentina has upheld its claim on the Falkland Islands to this day.instead of the detailed sentence explaining these votes. As a source, we could use
"Falklands referendum: Voters choose to remain UK territory". BBC News. 11 March 2013. Retrieved 1 July 2023.Phlsph7 ( talk) 07:11, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Both the UK and Spain claimed sovereignty of the remote archipelago and Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy[51].: Could you cite which passage supports this?
President Juan Perón exploited the issue to reduce British influence in Argentina, instituting reforms to the education system, whereby children are taught the islands are Argentine[53]: what is the page number for this claim?
In 1982, the Argentine military government sought to exploit this deflecting attention from domestic concerns.[54].: I couldn't find a passage that supports this on the cited page.
An unofficial referendum in 1986 and one organised by the Falkland Islands Government in 2013 show a continued preference for British sovereignty among the population. ...[57]: I don't think that this claim is supported by the sources.
Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, the Argentine military government exploited nationalistic sentiments in its attempt to seize the islands. They were under British control since 1833 but both Argentina's and Britain's claims on them date back before that. Britain managed to decide the conflict in its favor and remained in control due to its superior military force and strong international support. Despite its defeat and popular votes by the local population to remain part of Britain, Argentina has upheld its claim on the Falkland Islands to this day. [1]
“ | Argentina's invasion of the Falklands is cited as an example of irredentism in South America [2], where the Argentine military government sought to exploit national sentiment over the islands to deflect attention from domestic concerns. [3] [4]. Many analysts considered the Argentine position unassailable [5] but the UK prevailed in the Falklands War. The islands are now self-governing with the UK responsible for defence and foreign relations [6]. Referenda in 1986 and 2013 show a preference for British sovereignty among the population [7]. Both the UK [8]: 28 and Spain [8]: 33 claimed sovereignty in the 18th Century and Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816 [9]. President Juan Perón exploited the issue to reduce British influence in Argentina, instituting educational reform teaching the islands were Argentine [10] and creating a strong nationalist sentiment over the issue. [10] Although defeated, Argentina did not agree to cease hostilities until 1989 and successive Argentine Governments have continued to claim the islands. [11] | ” |
Argentina's invasion of the Falklands is cited as an example of irredentism in South America[2]supported by the source.
Argentine military government sought to exploit national sentiment over the islands to deflect attention from domestic concerns.[3][4].not supported by source [4]. Source [3] is in Spanish and discusses both nationalism and the Falkland islands (Islas Malvinas) so there are good chances that it supports the claim.
Referenda in 1986 and 2013 show a preference for British sovereignty among the population[7].supports the claim for the 2013 referendum.
Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816[9]: I don't think this is supported by the source
President Juan Perón ... instituting educational reform teaching the islands were Argentine[10]: I had a look at the pdf but I couldn't find this claim. It's a 55 page document so it's possible that it is there but I missed it. What is the page number for this claim?
creating a strong nationalist sentiment over the issue.[10]supported by the source
Argentina did not agree to cease hostilities until 1989...[11]I don't think this is supported by the sources. [11] includes 3 sources, the main one is Ackermann et al. 2008a. I couldn't find it in there. Could you cite the passage in case I missed it.
References
Phlsph7 ( talk) 07:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Since I just noted I was pinged to this discussion (comes with not logging into your account for a couple of months).
I'd agree with WCM that some rewording would better reflect the situation. But before getting into that, my immediate question is, is the History section of this article actually adding to the reader's understanding of the concept of irredentism?
My issue is that this just seems to be a set of random examples of the same concept in different parts of the world. If there are particular cases in history that advanced the (real-world) academic or legal understanding of the the concept then maybe these belong in a history section. But - other than a point about Italia irredenta that's already made in the definition section - that doesn't appear to be what we have here. Plus, it's a time sink for editors which leaves them less able to improve the article in other ways.
On this basis, my inclination would be to propose that the entire History section be deleted as a net negative to Wikipeda. Kahastok talk 17:50, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
“ | P.20 "On later years, especially after the 1943 coup and most especially after Perón's
assumption in 1946, this type of political use of the classroom, with ends that were no longer "metapolitical" but clearly partisan instead, would become a routine. The kinship between the Conservative decade of the 1930s, and the Peronism to come in the late forties and early fifties, comes out even more clearly when one looks into the school exercises suggested by the general inspector in June 1932 in order to sell the Patriotic Loan. One of the suggested themes read: "The patriotism of the men of 1810 gave us our political freedom; that of the men of 1932 will give us our economic freedom, without which the former will not be sustained.”42 The Peronist slogans that focused on Argentina's economic independence (allegedly attained by Perón) had thus a clear antecedent in the political propaganda disseminated in the classrooms during Justo's government, fifteen tears before." |
” |
“ | p.24 "Some of these trends were successively accentuated in 1943 and 1946,
especially as regards authoritarianism. The military government that took over in 1943 fired 32 teachers for "activities contrary to the nationality" and another 22 for "immorality", out of a total of 115 fired for a wide range of similar causes. 48 In turn, in late 1946, the first interventor (an appointee who in times of crisis replaced the president) of the Consejo during the Peronist government pontificated: "(...) The school is not a partisan forum nor an Athenaeum for speeches and shallow lectures... It is a temple of the Fatherland, and in its altars the only cult worshipped must be that of labor, the national heroes and the children. Whoever seeks other ends (...) must abandon the classrooms and look for another context for his preaching, should he find it, far from the sacred walls of the school. In this determination --that the teachers be worthy of their high and responsibilityladen mission-- we shall extreme our care. We certainly value the learned, but we prefer the virtuous man, because the primary school has no need of erudites, but requires instead those who carry with them the true feeling of Argentineness and conform to the strict norms of behavior imposed by that feeling. (...) And we demand loyalty, because he who treacherously accepts the benefits of a position prestiged by the state in order to combat it in its own home cannot be worthy and upright. 49 (my emphasis) And as the Peronist regime unfolded, this authoritarian dimension of the school and other official spheres was increasingly accentuated. On March 21, 1950, for example, replying to a union leader's speech, First Lady Eva Perón emphatically stated: "I adhere to the wishes of compañero Perezzolo, to the effect that the official bureaucracies must be purified so that those who do not share the feeling of this Argentine hour or who are indifferent to the extraordinary times in which we live and do not understand that general Perón is burning away his life and his hours for the sake of an ideal of grandeur for the Argentine people, should abandon their positions so that the truly well-born Argentines, those with a pure heart, those who conserve the spiritual values of the country, as has the working class, can take their places. I ask the workers to expose the anti-Peronists, because they are sellouts, and I also ask the public officials to take measures, for otherwise we will think that they also are sellouts. (...) He who does not feel himself a Peronist cannot feel himself an Argentine.”50 (my emphasis) And on the same month of the same year, Perón's minister of Education, Oscar Ivanissevich, gave a philosophical justification for this brand of authoritarianism: "It is often said: I want to be free. For this, all that is needed is to look inside oneself, because freedom does not consist in dominating others but in dominating oneself. To be free is not to do what one likes to do. To be free is to be able to do what one does not like to do.” 51 (my emphasis)" |
” |
“ | p.27 "This dogma acquired hegemony to the point that, until the Falkland Islands war,
it was taboo to question it not only in the classroom (where it still cannot be questioned) but also in the writings of scholars and academics. Allegedly scientific works supported these naïve myths, and the academic who dared question them was considered a traitor. 57 The so-called constants of the history of Argentine foreign policy "scientifically" inferred by academics were a slavish recitation of this myth, disguised in pretentious and pseudo-objective words.58 Thus, once again, there was a clear continuity between the pre-Peronist past, the Perón administrations of 1946-55, and a future whose landmark was to be the Falkland Islands war." |
” |
Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816[9].
Many analysts considered the Argentine position unassailable but the UK prevailed in the Falklands War- that it's not clear what Argentine position is considered unassailable. A better wording might be,
The UK prevailed in the Falklands War, even though many analysts considered the Argentine military position unassailable.?
Many analysts considered... in the Falklands War) to after sentence 6 (
President Juan Perón exploited... over the issue), and sentences 3 and 4 (
The islands are now... among the population) to the end. We'd probably need light edits for style, but I think it would flow better in terms of the substance without jumping back and forward.
Argentina's invasion of the Falklands is cited as an example of irredentism in South America [1], where the Argentine military government sought to exploit national sentiment over the islands to deflect attention from domestic concerns. [2] [3]. Many analysts considered the Argentine position unassailable [4] but the UK prevailed in the Falklands War. The islands are now self-governing with the UK responsible for defence and foreign relations [5]. Referenda in 1986 and 2013 show a preference for British sovereignty among the population [6]. Both the UK [7]: 28 and Spain [7]: 33 claimed sovereignty in the 18th Century and Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816. [8] [9] President Juan Perón exploited the issue to reduce British influence in Argentina, instituting educational reform teaching the islands were Argentine [10] and creating a strong nationalist sentiment over the issue. [10] Although defeated, Argentina did not agree to cease hostilities until 1989 and successive Argentine Governments have continued to claim the islands. [11]
References
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Augustios Paleo ( talk · contribs) 18:03, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
*The word "dispute" is repetitive
*"There are various types of irredentism. One categorization distinguishes between cases in which the parent state exists before the conflict and cases in which a new parent state is formed by uniting an ethnic group spread across several countries. Another distinction concerns whether the target country is a state, a former colony, or a collapsed state." This sentence is confusing: what does "before the conflict" refer to? Please rewrite this
*Images on the left side of the page are needed, as all are on the right
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ParisPeace-Venizelos-Map.png
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_map.png
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Morocco.svg
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria_Paris_Peace_Conference_1919.jpg
@ Augustios Paleo: Thanks for all the concrete and helpful suggestions! I hope I managed to cover all the main points. Phlsph7 ( talk) 13:41, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
The result was: promoted by
Cielquiparle (
talk)
01:50, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
References
Sources
Improved to Good Article status by Phlsph7 ( talk). Self-nominated at 11:18, 3 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Irredentism; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
I noticed some problems with this section.
"President Juan Peron exploited the issue to reduce British influence in Argentina, instituting educational reform teaching the islands were Argentine"
"Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816"
The text doesn't say when the dispute started. Without proper context, these statements could make an uninformed reader believe it started in 1816, or sometime during Peron's rule.... (1940s, 1950s, 1970s)
"Although defeated, Argentina did not agree to cease hostilities until 1989"
Similar issue- the text doesn't say when the war ended. It only says it started in 1982. This could make people believe it lasted nearly 7 years.
The article completely omits mentioning the rest of Argentina's territorial claims (South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands) these could be included in a map, replacing the current one.
I take issue with the statement "Peron introduced education reform teaching the islands were Argentine", I think this is a misinterpretation of Escude.
"The seed of this strategy was law 11.904, from 26th September 1934, ordering a synthesis of Paul Groussac's work, Les Iles Malouines, to be distributed in the nation's schools" (escude, 2000)
The draft was submitted by senator Alfredo Palacios, who was later imprisoned by Juan Peron for political reasons. This is in line with Escude's other observations- that the claim is "transversal" to Argentina's many political movements and parties. It is not a purely Peronist cause.
Law 11.904 wasn't even the first of its kind. This is actually a very interesting subject. On January 25th 1892 Argentina's Senate passed a resolution doing the same with the book "apuntes sobre la geografia de las gobernaciones nacionales e islas malvinas" by Raul B Diaz (Registro nacional de la República argentina, 1892) other educational materials used in the 1880s and 1890s describe the islands as Argentine, albeit without the provocative and antagonistic tone that would come later. the "Compendio de história argentina para el uso de las escuelas y colegios de la República" (1883) by Nicanor Larrain even mentions the "inheritance from Spain" argument. Others simply say "all the islands east of the Magellan strait belong to Argentina" (Programas razonados de instrucción primaria, 1882) the "Curso de instrucción cívica adaptado al programa de los colegios nacionales" (1897) which provides a list of various educational materials to be used in schools, lists maps of "the Argentine republic with its Islas malvinas" so the claim was being taught in Argentine schools long before Peron became president. I hope this information can be of use to anyone interested in researching this further. Interestingly enough, none of the materials I've found claim that the population of the islands was expelled by the British in 1833. I haven't found any mention of Rivero either. It seems these claims were added later. But I'm veering into original research here.
I have to ask- are the specifics about how the dispute is taught in Argentine schools event relevant to this article? This information probably belongs in an article about nationalism or education in argentina in general, or maybe about the history of the dispute itself.
Ookipik ( talk) 13:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Should there be a mention of irredentism motivated by the belief that it is the will of God, or a divine being? Greater Israel clearly falls into this category, as do (arguably) certain variants of the Moscow as the Third Rome and Akhand Bharat concepts. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:6466 ( talk) 03:08, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
Why is there no discussion of Israel and Palestinian irredentism? 216.67.40.181 ( talk) 23:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Irredentism has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
![]() | A
fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
September 12, 2023. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 is an example of
irredentism? | ||||||||||||
Current status: Good article |
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Since a irredentist desire is in the constitution of the Republic of Ireland it is in the wrong section. The change in 1999 removed the territorial claim, but did not remove the irredentist desire from its constitution: Articles_2_and_3_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.
Article 3
It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions"
@ Roger 8 Roger:. The article discusses the conflict between historical disputes, sometimes based on the people or ethnicity of a land, and the conflicting or disregard that an irredentist claim may have for its people. I quote: "Usually, irredentism is defined in terms of the motivation of the irredentist state, even if the territory is annexed against the will of the local population." If we are discussing the rationale for the ongoing status of the Falklands, it is relevant to address the historical land claim in context of the people who live there and not merely a diplomatic maneuver or argument over rocks in the ocean. The article as written before also implies that the Falklands remain only in British hands because of firepower. It was a very oddly phrased paragraph and should expand on the claim's context after the Falklands War, when 40 years of history have passed.
Zkidwiki ( talk) 18:13, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Current text:
“ | Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, Argentina tried to seize the Falkland Islands. They were under British control since 1833 but Argentina's claims on them date back before that. Britain managed to decide the conflict in its favor and remained in control due to its superior military force and strong international support. In the intervening time, Falkland Islanders have voted in 1986 and 2013 to remain a British overseas dependency, the latter with 99.8% of votes in favor. Despite these setbacks, Argentina has upheld its claim on the Falkland Islands to this day.[6][51][52] | ” |
I don't think this explains the issue at all well. The text as written focuses on the war, with the none too subtle implication the UK prevailed because of might not right. As such it implies some support for Argentina in Wikipedia's voice. I welcome the addition of reference to the referendum, since it introduces the voice of the islanders in a neutral manner; they are usually forgotten. If I may suggest changing to the following.
“ | Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, the unpopulr Argentine military government attempted to exploit the national sentiment over the claim to the islands and seized the islands. After a brief but intensive conflict, British forces retook the islands restoring British rule. Falkland Islanders have since voted twice (in 1986 and 2013) to remain a British overseas territory, the latter in a referendum organised by the Falkland Islands Government with 99.8% of votes in favour. Argentina continues to press its claim to the Falkland Islands and pursues an aggressive diplomatic campaign to that end | ” |
.
A suggestion only, feel free to improve. W C M email 14:13, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, Argentina tried to seize the Falkland Islands. They were under British control since 1833 but Argentina's claims on them date back before that. Britain managed to decide the conflict in its favor and remained in control due to its superior military force and strong international support. Despite its defeat, Argentina has upheld its claim on the Falkland Islands to this day.
Disputes over the sovereignty of the islands have occurred since the 18th century, as the islands are actually located within the Argentinean continental platform. However, in spite of many Argentinean claims, in 1833 British troops and inhabitants took possession of the islands.
Zkidwiki ( talk) 19:01, 28 June 2023 (UTC)Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, Argentina under the government of the National Reorganization Process attempted seize the Falklands and the island of South Georgia, two British Overseas Territories in the South Atlantic. After a brief conflict, British forces resisted the invasion. Falkland Islanders have since voted twice (in 1986 and 2013) to remain a British overseas territory, the latter concluding with 99.8% of votes in favour. Argentina continues to press its claim to the Falkland Islands.
Ackermann, Marsha E.; Schroeder, Michael J.; Terry, Janice J.; Upshur, Jiu-Hwa Lo; Whitters, Mark F., eds. (2008a). Encyclopedia of world history: Volume 6. New York: Facts on File. ISBN 9780816063864.. This is not the "Juan Ackerman" you are referring to. Does that address your concern about WP:FRINGE?
They were under British control since 1833 but Argentina's claims on them date back before that.implies that the Argentine claim is older than the British claim. But if that is a concern, we could reformulate this phrase to make it explicit:
They were under British control since 1833 but Argentina's claims on them date back before Britain took control. If we want to emphasize that both Argentina and Britain had claims before that, we could use
They were under British control since 1833 but both Argentina's and Britain's claims on them date back before that.Phlsph7 ( talk) 07:45, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
In 1982, Argentina tried to seize the Falkland Islands.to
In 1982, the Argentine military government exploited nationalistic sentiment in its attempt to seize the islands.to address that issue. We would need to add the following source to support this claim:
Goebel, Michael (1 January 2011). Argentina's Partisan Past: Nationalism and the Politics of History. Liverpool University Press. p. 182. ISBN 978-1-84631-238-0.. Phlsph7 ( talk) 09:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with all that. My point is that the space it takes to express that isn't justified in this article, although someone with the necessary skills might be able to sum it up in a couple of lines, as you have sort of just done. If anything is to be mentioned about Argentina's irredentist claim I think it should be about supposedly inheriting the Spanish claim, but that isn't straightforward either. Alternatively, mention of being evicted from a legitimately established settlement in 1833 (according to Argentina). I agree if the war is mentioned it should be as an expression of a (weak) irredentist claim either. The way the was inserted though, reads as if the war and the referendum should have put an end to Argentina's irredentist thinking, which it doesn't. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 08:30, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
Despite its defeat and popular votes by the local population to remain part of Britain, Argentina has upheld its claim on the Falkland Islands to this day.instead of the detailed sentence explaining these votes. As a source, we could use
"Falklands referendum: Voters choose to remain UK territory". BBC News. 11 March 2013. Retrieved 1 July 2023.Phlsph7 ( talk) 07:11, 1 July 2023 (UTC)
Both the UK and Spain claimed sovereignty of the remote archipelago and Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy[51].: Could you cite which passage supports this?
President Juan Perón exploited the issue to reduce British influence in Argentina, instituting reforms to the education system, whereby children are taught the islands are Argentine[53]: what is the page number for this claim?
In 1982, the Argentine military government sought to exploit this deflecting attention from domestic concerns.[54].: I couldn't find a passage that supports this on the cited page.
An unofficial referendum in 1986 and one organised by the Falkland Islands Government in 2013 show a continued preference for British sovereignty among the population. ...[57]: I don't think that this claim is supported by the sources.
Argentina's invasion of the Falkland Islands is often cited as an example of irredentism in South America. In 1982, the Argentine military government exploited nationalistic sentiments in its attempt to seize the islands. They were under British control since 1833 but both Argentina's and Britain's claims on them date back before that. Britain managed to decide the conflict in its favor and remained in control due to its superior military force and strong international support. Despite its defeat and popular votes by the local population to remain part of Britain, Argentina has upheld its claim on the Falkland Islands to this day. [1]
“ | Argentina's invasion of the Falklands is cited as an example of irredentism in South America [2], where the Argentine military government sought to exploit national sentiment over the islands to deflect attention from domestic concerns. [3] [4]. Many analysts considered the Argentine position unassailable [5] but the UK prevailed in the Falklands War. The islands are now self-governing with the UK responsible for defence and foreign relations [6]. Referenda in 1986 and 2013 show a preference for British sovereignty among the population [7]. Both the UK [8]: 28 and Spain [8]: 33 claimed sovereignty in the 18th Century and Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816 [9]. President Juan Perón exploited the issue to reduce British influence in Argentina, instituting educational reform teaching the islands were Argentine [10] and creating a strong nationalist sentiment over the issue. [10] Although defeated, Argentina did not agree to cease hostilities until 1989 and successive Argentine Governments have continued to claim the islands. [11] | ” |
Argentina's invasion of the Falklands is cited as an example of irredentism in South America[2]supported by the source.
Argentine military government sought to exploit national sentiment over the islands to deflect attention from domestic concerns.[3][4].not supported by source [4]. Source [3] is in Spanish and discusses both nationalism and the Falkland islands (Islas Malvinas) so there are good chances that it supports the claim.
Referenda in 1986 and 2013 show a preference for British sovereignty among the population[7].supports the claim for the 2013 referendum.
Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816[9]: I don't think this is supported by the source
President Juan Perón ... instituting educational reform teaching the islands were Argentine[10]: I had a look at the pdf but I couldn't find this claim. It's a 55 page document so it's possible that it is there but I missed it. What is the page number for this claim?
creating a strong nationalist sentiment over the issue.[10]supported by the source
Argentina did not agree to cease hostilities until 1989...[11]I don't think this is supported by the sources. [11] includes 3 sources, the main one is Ackermann et al. 2008a. I couldn't find it in there. Could you cite the passage in case I missed it.
References
Phlsph7 ( talk) 07:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
Since I just noted I was pinged to this discussion (comes with not logging into your account for a couple of months).
I'd agree with WCM that some rewording would better reflect the situation. But before getting into that, my immediate question is, is the History section of this article actually adding to the reader's understanding of the concept of irredentism?
My issue is that this just seems to be a set of random examples of the same concept in different parts of the world. If there are particular cases in history that advanced the (real-world) academic or legal understanding of the the concept then maybe these belong in a history section. But - other than a point about Italia irredenta that's already made in the definition section - that doesn't appear to be what we have here. Plus, it's a time sink for editors which leaves them less able to improve the article in other ways.
On this basis, my inclination would be to propose that the entire History section be deleted as a net negative to Wikipeda. Kahastok talk 17:50, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
“ | P.20 "On later years, especially after the 1943 coup and most especially after Perón's
assumption in 1946, this type of political use of the classroom, with ends that were no longer "metapolitical" but clearly partisan instead, would become a routine. The kinship between the Conservative decade of the 1930s, and the Peronism to come in the late forties and early fifties, comes out even more clearly when one looks into the school exercises suggested by the general inspector in June 1932 in order to sell the Patriotic Loan. One of the suggested themes read: "The patriotism of the men of 1810 gave us our political freedom; that of the men of 1932 will give us our economic freedom, without which the former will not be sustained.”42 The Peronist slogans that focused on Argentina's economic independence (allegedly attained by Perón) had thus a clear antecedent in the political propaganda disseminated in the classrooms during Justo's government, fifteen tears before." |
” |
“ | p.24 "Some of these trends were successively accentuated in 1943 and 1946,
especially as regards authoritarianism. The military government that took over in 1943 fired 32 teachers for "activities contrary to the nationality" and another 22 for "immorality", out of a total of 115 fired for a wide range of similar causes. 48 In turn, in late 1946, the first interventor (an appointee who in times of crisis replaced the president) of the Consejo during the Peronist government pontificated: "(...) The school is not a partisan forum nor an Athenaeum for speeches and shallow lectures... It is a temple of the Fatherland, and in its altars the only cult worshipped must be that of labor, the national heroes and the children. Whoever seeks other ends (...) must abandon the classrooms and look for another context for his preaching, should he find it, far from the sacred walls of the school. In this determination --that the teachers be worthy of their high and responsibilityladen mission-- we shall extreme our care. We certainly value the learned, but we prefer the virtuous man, because the primary school has no need of erudites, but requires instead those who carry with them the true feeling of Argentineness and conform to the strict norms of behavior imposed by that feeling. (...) And we demand loyalty, because he who treacherously accepts the benefits of a position prestiged by the state in order to combat it in its own home cannot be worthy and upright. 49 (my emphasis) And as the Peronist regime unfolded, this authoritarian dimension of the school and other official spheres was increasingly accentuated. On March 21, 1950, for example, replying to a union leader's speech, First Lady Eva Perón emphatically stated: "I adhere to the wishes of compañero Perezzolo, to the effect that the official bureaucracies must be purified so that those who do not share the feeling of this Argentine hour or who are indifferent to the extraordinary times in which we live and do not understand that general Perón is burning away his life and his hours for the sake of an ideal of grandeur for the Argentine people, should abandon their positions so that the truly well-born Argentines, those with a pure heart, those who conserve the spiritual values of the country, as has the working class, can take their places. I ask the workers to expose the anti-Peronists, because they are sellouts, and I also ask the public officials to take measures, for otherwise we will think that they also are sellouts. (...) He who does not feel himself a Peronist cannot feel himself an Argentine.”50 (my emphasis) And on the same month of the same year, Perón's minister of Education, Oscar Ivanissevich, gave a philosophical justification for this brand of authoritarianism: "It is often said: I want to be free. For this, all that is needed is to look inside oneself, because freedom does not consist in dominating others but in dominating oneself. To be free is not to do what one likes to do. To be free is to be able to do what one does not like to do.” 51 (my emphasis)" |
” |
“ | p.27 "This dogma acquired hegemony to the point that, until the Falkland Islands war,
it was taboo to question it not only in the classroom (where it still cannot be questioned) but also in the writings of scholars and academics. Allegedly scientific works supported these naïve myths, and the academic who dared question them was considered a traitor. 57 The so-called constants of the history of Argentine foreign policy "scientifically" inferred by academics were a slavish recitation of this myth, disguised in pretentious and pseudo-objective words.58 Thus, once again, there was a clear continuity between the pre-Peronist past, the Perón administrations of 1946-55, and a future whose landmark was to be the Falkland Islands war." |
” |
Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816[9].
Many analysts considered the Argentine position unassailable but the UK prevailed in the Falklands War- that it's not clear what Argentine position is considered unassailable. A better wording might be,
The UK prevailed in the Falklands War, even though many analysts considered the Argentine military position unassailable.?
Many analysts considered... in the Falklands War) to after sentence 6 (
President Juan Perón exploited... over the issue), and sentences 3 and 4 (
The islands are now... among the population) to the end. We'd probably need light edits for style, but I think it would flow better in terms of the substance without jumping back and forward.
Argentina's invasion of the Falklands is cited as an example of irredentism in South America [1], where the Argentine military government sought to exploit national sentiment over the islands to deflect attention from domestic concerns. [2] [3]. Many analysts considered the Argentine position unassailable [4] but the UK prevailed in the Falklands War. The islands are now self-governing with the UK responsible for defence and foreign relations [5]. Referenda in 1986 and 2013 show a preference for British sovereignty among the population [6]. Both the UK [7]: 28 and Spain [7]: 33 claimed sovereignty in the 18th Century and Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816. [8] [9] President Juan Perón exploited the issue to reduce British influence in Argentina, instituting educational reform teaching the islands were Argentine [10] and creating a strong nationalist sentiment over the issue. [10] Although defeated, Argentina did not agree to cease hostilities until 1989 and successive Argentine Governments have continued to claim the islands. [11]
References
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Augustios Paleo ( talk · contribs) 18:03, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
*The word "dispute" is repetitive
*"There are various types of irredentism. One categorization distinguishes between cases in which the parent state exists before the conflict and cases in which a new parent state is formed by uniting an ethnic group spread across several countries. Another distinction concerns whether the target country is a state, a former colony, or a collapsed state." This sentence is confusing: what does "before the conflict" refer to? Please rewrite this
*Images on the left side of the page are needed, as all are on the right
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ParisPeace-Venizelos-Map.png
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China_map.png
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greater_Morocco.svg
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Assyria_Paris_Peace_Conference_1919.jpg
@ Augustios Paleo: Thanks for all the concrete and helpful suggestions! I hope I managed to cover all the main points. Phlsph7 ( talk) 13:41, 2 August 2023 (UTC)
The result was: promoted by
Cielquiparle (
talk)
01:50, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
References
Sources
Improved to Good Article status by Phlsph7 ( talk). Self-nominated at 11:18, 3 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Irredentism; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.
I noticed some problems with this section.
"President Juan Peron exploited the issue to reduce British influence in Argentina, instituting educational reform teaching the islands were Argentine"
"Argentina claims the islands as a colonial legacy from independence in 1816"
The text doesn't say when the dispute started. Without proper context, these statements could make an uninformed reader believe it started in 1816, or sometime during Peron's rule.... (1940s, 1950s, 1970s)
"Although defeated, Argentina did not agree to cease hostilities until 1989"
Similar issue- the text doesn't say when the war ended. It only says it started in 1982. This could make people believe it lasted nearly 7 years.
The article completely omits mentioning the rest of Argentina's territorial claims (South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands) these could be included in a map, replacing the current one.
I take issue with the statement "Peron introduced education reform teaching the islands were Argentine", I think this is a misinterpretation of Escude.
"The seed of this strategy was law 11.904, from 26th September 1934, ordering a synthesis of Paul Groussac's work, Les Iles Malouines, to be distributed in the nation's schools" (escude, 2000)
The draft was submitted by senator Alfredo Palacios, who was later imprisoned by Juan Peron for political reasons. This is in line with Escude's other observations- that the claim is "transversal" to Argentina's many political movements and parties. It is not a purely Peronist cause.
Law 11.904 wasn't even the first of its kind. This is actually a very interesting subject. On January 25th 1892 Argentina's Senate passed a resolution doing the same with the book "apuntes sobre la geografia de las gobernaciones nacionales e islas malvinas" by Raul B Diaz (Registro nacional de la República argentina, 1892) other educational materials used in the 1880s and 1890s describe the islands as Argentine, albeit without the provocative and antagonistic tone that would come later. the "Compendio de história argentina para el uso de las escuelas y colegios de la República" (1883) by Nicanor Larrain even mentions the "inheritance from Spain" argument. Others simply say "all the islands east of the Magellan strait belong to Argentina" (Programas razonados de instrucción primaria, 1882) the "Curso de instrucción cívica adaptado al programa de los colegios nacionales" (1897) which provides a list of various educational materials to be used in schools, lists maps of "the Argentine republic with its Islas malvinas" so the claim was being taught in Argentine schools long before Peron became president. I hope this information can be of use to anyone interested in researching this further. Interestingly enough, none of the materials I've found claim that the population of the islands was expelled by the British in 1833. I haven't found any mention of Rivero either. It seems these claims were added later. But I'm veering into original research here.
I have to ask- are the specifics about how the dispute is taught in Argentine schools event relevant to this article? This information probably belongs in an article about nationalism or education in argentina in general, or maybe about the history of the dispute itself.
Ookipik ( talk) 13:38, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
Should there be a mention of irredentism motivated by the belief that it is the will of God, or a divine being? Greater Israel clearly falls into this category, as do (arguably) certain variants of the Moscow as the Third Rome and Akhand Bharat concepts. 2604:2D80:6984:3800:0:0:0:6466 ( talk) 03:08, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
Why is there no discussion of Israel and Palestinian irredentism? 216.67.40.181 ( talk) 23:27, 5 November 2023 (UTC)