This article was nominated for deletion on 20 July 2015. The result of the discussion was redirect to indentured servitude. |
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So, the sole sources for this supposed historical event are a book that was published in 2007 and an article that only references the book?
Seems legit. AlexMc ( talk) 02:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
You might want to read this review of the Jordan and Walsh book by an actual historian, Dominic Sandbrook (Jordan and Walsh are actually filmakers). Choice quote: "The book is subtitled and marketed as the "forgotten history of Britain's white slaves in America". Yet as the authors admit, indentured servants were not slaves [...] Calling them slaves might be a marketing ploy, but it stretches the meaning of slavery beyond breaking point." Also I've removed the globalresearch.ca link, it's actually a conspiracy theory website. The article is just a review of Jordan and Walsh's book anyway, not a source in itself. Fyddlestix ( talk) 02:10, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
References
I was to quick when I found those sources (and did a very bad job when I first made this article in general I can see!). This does not mean that the other ones are invalid, and I think you should read about the subject before you make a decision. If we delite the sources and call it "White slave trade to America" it would be better. Because we have two credible sources on this subject. In "White cargo" the author have written about many different people being forcefully shipped off to the new world and being treated horrificly. While not chattel slavery, it were by defention slavery. Many others sold their labour (indentured servitude) for many years, to sail over to the new world, they were treaten very badly by their "owners". Often black slaves and white "slaves", not chattel, rebelled against their owners together. Read more, preview of the book: https://books.google.no/books?id=KjOIEDCpxsQC&printsec=frontcover&hl=no#v=onepage&q&f=false Olehal09 ( talk) 01:16, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Copied from the Deletion Debate Page Hey Fyddlestix ANY of the contemporary sources worth their salt take the idea of Irish Slavery seriously. Nini Rodgers [1] or Akensen's [2] or Beckles' [3] or Dunn's Sugar and Slaves, or the work from the New Americans like Jenny Shaw. The issue is not to conflate Irish experience and the Black Experience for American Political Points. Or to dignify the conflation , but the Issue is to compare and contrast and find out why the Meme or trope of the irish as slaves exists, and has existed for hundreds of years, and why it's there, why it keeps going, and why it started. And most importantly what about it is accurate and what is not. Just being iconoclastic about this doesn't match protocol here or in historigraphy at all. Rodgers notes in her book that conquered and colonized peoples use the word slavery, or enslaved often and the Irish are no different. Akenson, notes that the Irish were just as prone to be abusers as abused, and after going after Beckles at first, saying that on Monserrat there's a "Universe of difference between servant and slave" admits pages later that the lived experience of Irish and Black unfree labour on Barbados was strikingly similar, except that the Irish eventually had an out. Beckles calls all servants with no recourse to bettering their positions proto-slaves and takes the idea of the Irish as mistreated very seriously enough to answer and show exactly what is accurate in their cultural history of oppression and what isn't. Jenny Shaw and Kirsten Block have redefined the terms in their work, Subjects without an Empire, talking about the period before the slave codes were written as Unfree and Free labour. So any scholar of note, and there are more I could quote, takes the trope very seriously, and rather than simply dismissing it, and throwing more tropes and misinformation (i.e. Servants' Children being born free, they certainly weren't supposed to have kids at all, and the kids who were born and immediately indentured until adulthood. ) at it, they deal with the root causes of the idea, and explain the reasoning behind it. So, I have done so. Hopefully to your satisfaction And as the debate is over and the page has been merged, if you need more sources or explanations so you can accurately answer questions about the topic, hit me up. Cheers. Robbie.johnson ( talk) 10:23, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
References
Hello Fyddlestix, why do you say your choice is better than mine? I redirected to an article concerning a time when there was an actual Irish slave trade, not just one imagined by racists. I'm concerned that your redirect panders to the view that indentured servitude is comparable to chattel slavery. It's not. Alfie Gandon ( talk) 09:18, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, I know I've been away a bit but I must raise my objection to the rewrite of this article. I agree with Fyddlestix that this particular title needs to redirect to Indentured servitude per WP:COMMONNAME. People searching this phrase are most likely to be looking for the info about the myth of Irish slaves in the American colonies. An article about slavery in Ireland belongs under Slavery in Ireland. I wholly welcome such an article. I only object to the change in scope of this one. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:08, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
When was slavery formally abolished on the island of Ireland? The article only mentions England banning it in the early 1100's in their own kingdom, but the article makes no mention of when it was made illegal in Ireland. By the time it was outlawed in the British Empire had it already been abolished or was it still going on that late? NeoStalinist ( talk) 17:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
@ Alfie Gandon:So apparently Alfie Gandon objects to removing an article that doesn't exist. Care to explain why Alfie? Apollo The Logician ( talk) 20:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
ATL, I reverted your removal of the following sourced content: " Gaelic raiders kidnapped and enslaved people from across the Irish Sea for two centuries after the Fall of the Western Roman Empire destabilised Roman Britain". Unless you make a case for what on the surface appears to be your embarrassment at Irish involvement in slavery, I will continue to revert you. Alfie Gandon ( talk) 21:51, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
There was a trial involving several families from the Irish Traveller community keeping people as slaves. As this is a current issue what page would this be on, Slavery in Britain or Slavery in Ireland, Irish Traveller page? As these are two Irish national families who were keeping slaves abroad should it be added. I think so considering the article talks about Irish people taking slaves from other nations. Uthican ( talk) 03:06, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-41241049 https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-traveller-family-farm-slavery https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-traveller-family-sentenced-to-18-years-for-slavery-by-uk-court-184252811-237554311
Very important subject. Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad and more all have large numbers of Irish surname descendents whose Irish slave ancesters intermarried with African slaves. The majority of Jamaican towns are Irish placenames. The famous Jamaican English has a lot of Irish influence too. Chesapeake77 ( talk) 22:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
No need to put your signature on a line by itself, you're not writing a letter. If you want to discuss improvements to the Great Famine (Ireland) article, please do so on that article's talk page, not here. But please be aware, many (if not most) of the contributors to that article were/are Irish, not British. Nor American. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:35, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Wait, what? You're challenging all of the sources in this article? Including the ones from History Ireland, a Routledge encyclopedia written by an Irishman, Danish academics writing about the Viking slave trade, such acknowledged experts as Nini Rodgers?! Might the University of the West Indies not be somewhat reliable when it publishes something about Irish slave owners in Jamaica? The Irish Times isn't a reliable source?! Really?! At this stage I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not. But no. This isn't how Wikipedia works. List specific problems with each source you're disputing - e.g., "they say X but they're contradicted by these other sources, Y and Z"; and not "they must be biased because Britain!" Or we're done here. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:27, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
MAGAN'S WORLD:Manchán Magan's tales of a travel addict" does not see WP:RS. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:11, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
References
The Atlantic slave trade section has been vandalized.
"Sections of the Irish population were slaves within the Atlantic slave trade along with Black African slaves between 1660 and 1815."
I am unable to correct this at the moment. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 01:29, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Someone seems to have been playing around with the ethnic terminology in the you-know-what section. The beginning claims that Liam Hogan claims that "Anglo-Irish" merchants were involved in the slave trade, but Hogan said no such thing. His work states clearly that all sections of Irish society produced people who were involved in the slave trade to varying degrees and in different capacities.
Then, when speaking of Mitch McConnell's and Jesse Jackson's genealogies, someone inserted "Scots-Irish" into the description. Is this what the sources say or has this editor taken it upon him/herself to clarify this? Because if the source uses the term 'Irish' then the article must adhere to that wording. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 16:01, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 20 July 2015. The result of the discussion was redirect to indentured servitude. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
So, the sole sources for this supposed historical event are a book that was published in 2007 and an article that only references the book?
Seems legit. AlexMc ( talk) 02:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
You might want to read this review of the Jordan and Walsh book by an actual historian, Dominic Sandbrook (Jordan and Walsh are actually filmakers). Choice quote: "The book is subtitled and marketed as the "forgotten history of Britain's white slaves in America". Yet as the authors admit, indentured servants were not slaves [...] Calling them slaves might be a marketing ploy, but it stretches the meaning of slavery beyond breaking point." Also I've removed the globalresearch.ca link, it's actually a conspiracy theory website. The article is just a review of Jordan and Walsh's book anyway, not a source in itself. Fyddlestix ( talk) 02:10, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
References
I was to quick when I found those sources (and did a very bad job when I first made this article in general I can see!). This does not mean that the other ones are invalid, and I think you should read about the subject before you make a decision. If we delite the sources and call it "White slave trade to America" it would be better. Because we have two credible sources on this subject. In "White cargo" the author have written about many different people being forcefully shipped off to the new world and being treated horrificly. While not chattel slavery, it were by defention slavery. Many others sold their labour (indentured servitude) for many years, to sail over to the new world, they were treaten very badly by their "owners". Often black slaves and white "slaves", not chattel, rebelled against their owners together. Read more, preview of the book: https://books.google.no/books?id=KjOIEDCpxsQC&printsec=frontcover&hl=no#v=onepage&q&f=false Olehal09 ( talk) 01:16, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Copied from the Deletion Debate Page Hey Fyddlestix ANY of the contemporary sources worth their salt take the idea of Irish Slavery seriously. Nini Rodgers [1] or Akensen's [2] or Beckles' [3] or Dunn's Sugar and Slaves, or the work from the New Americans like Jenny Shaw. The issue is not to conflate Irish experience and the Black Experience for American Political Points. Or to dignify the conflation , but the Issue is to compare and contrast and find out why the Meme or trope of the irish as slaves exists, and has existed for hundreds of years, and why it's there, why it keeps going, and why it started. And most importantly what about it is accurate and what is not. Just being iconoclastic about this doesn't match protocol here or in historigraphy at all. Rodgers notes in her book that conquered and colonized peoples use the word slavery, or enslaved often and the Irish are no different. Akenson, notes that the Irish were just as prone to be abusers as abused, and after going after Beckles at first, saying that on Monserrat there's a "Universe of difference between servant and slave" admits pages later that the lived experience of Irish and Black unfree labour on Barbados was strikingly similar, except that the Irish eventually had an out. Beckles calls all servants with no recourse to bettering their positions proto-slaves and takes the idea of the Irish as mistreated very seriously enough to answer and show exactly what is accurate in their cultural history of oppression and what isn't. Jenny Shaw and Kirsten Block have redefined the terms in their work, Subjects without an Empire, talking about the period before the slave codes were written as Unfree and Free labour. So any scholar of note, and there are more I could quote, takes the trope very seriously, and rather than simply dismissing it, and throwing more tropes and misinformation (i.e. Servants' Children being born free, they certainly weren't supposed to have kids at all, and the kids who were born and immediately indentured until adulthood. ) at it, they deal with the root causes of the idea, and explain the reasoning behind it. So, I have done so. Hopefully to your satisfaction And as the debate is over and the page has been merged, if you need more sources or explanations so you can accurately answer questions about the topic, hit me up. Cheers. Robbie.johnson ( talk) 10:23, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
References
Hello Fyddlestix, why do you say your choice is better than mine? I redirected to an article concerning a time when there was an actual Irish slave trade, not just one imagined by racists. I'm concerned that your redirect panders to the view that indentured servitude is comparable to chattel slavery. It's not. Alfie Gandon ( talk) 09:18, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, I know I've been away a bit but I must raise my objection to the rewrite of this article. I agree with Fyddlestix that this particular title needs to redirect to Indentured servitude per WP:COMMONNAME. People searching this phrase are most likely to be looking for the info about the myth of Irish slaves in the American colonies. An article about slavery in Ireland belongs under Slavery in Ireland. I wholly welcome such an article. I only object to the change in scope of this one. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:08, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
When was slavery formally abolished on the island of Ireland? The article only mentions England banning it in the early 1100's in their own kingdom, but the article makes no mention of when it was made illegal in Ireland. By the time it was outlawed in the British Empire had it already been abolished or was it still going on that late? NeoStalinist ( talk) 17:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
@ Alfie Gandon:So apparently Alfie Gandon objects to removing an article that doesn't exist. Care to explain why Alfie? Apollo The Logician ( talk) 20:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
ATL, I reverted your removal of the following sourced content: " Gaelic raiders kidnapped and enslaved people from across the Irish Sea for two centuries after the Fall of the Western Roman Empire destabilised Roman Britain". Unless you make a case for what on the surface appears to be your embarrassment at Irish involvement in slavery, I will continue to revert you. Alfie Gandon ( talk) 21:51, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
There was a trial involving several families from the Irish Traveller community keeping people as slaves. As this is a current issue what page would this be on, Slavery in Britain or Slavery in Ireland, Irish Traveller page? As these are two Irish national families who were keeping slaves abroad should it be added. I think so considering the article talks about Irish people taking slaves from other nations. Uthican ( talk) 03:06, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-41241049 https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-traveller-family-farm-slavery https://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-traveller-family-sentenced-to-18-years-for-slavery-by-uk-court-184252811-237554311
Very important subject. Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad and more all have large numbers of Irish surname descendents whose Irish slave ancesters intermarried with African slaves. The majority of Jamaican towns are Irish placenames. The famous Jamaican English has a lot of Irish influence too. Chesapeake77 ( talk) 22:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
No need to put your signature on a line by itself, you're not writing a letter. If you want to discuss improvements to the Great Famine (Ireland) article, please do so on that article's talk page, not here. But please be aware, many (if not most) of the contributors to that article were/are Irish, not British. Nor American. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 17:35, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Wait, what? You're challenging all of the sources in this article? Including the ones from History Ireland, a Routledge encyclopedia written by an Irishman, Danish academics writing about the Viking slave trade, such acknowledged experts as Nini Rodgers?! Might the University of the West Indies not be somewhat reliable when it publishes something about Irish slave owners in Jamaica? The Irish Times isn't a reliable source?! Really?! At this stage I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or not. But no. This isn't how Wikipedia works. List specific problems with each source you're disputing - e.g., "they say X but they're contradicted by these other sources, Y and Z"; and not "they must be biased because Britain!" Or we're done here. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:27, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
MAGAN'S WORLD:Manchán Magan's tales of a travel addict" does not see WP:RS. EvergreenFir (talk) 23:11, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
References
The Atlantic slave trade section has been vandalized.
"Sections of the Irish population were slaves within the Atlantic slave trade along with Black African slaves between 1660 and 1815."
I am unable to correct this at the moment. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 01:29, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Someone seems to have been playing around with the ethnic terminology in the you-know-what section. The beginning claims that Liam Hogan claims that "Anglo-Irish" merchants were involved in the slave trade, but Hogan said no such thing. His work states clearly that all sections of Irish society produced people who were involved in the slave trade to varying degrees and in different capacities.
Then, when speaking of Mitch McConnell's and Jesse Jackson's genealogies, someone inserted "Scots-Irish" into the description. Is this what the sources say or has this editor taken it upon him/herself to clarify this? Because if the source uses the term 'Irish' then the article must adhere to that wording. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 16:01, 5 February 2023 (UTC)