This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
An interesting start -- but I fear if the goal is to explain how Irish spelling relates to Irish pronunciation, the author will need Job's patience and Solomon's wisdom. :-) An interesting beginning, at any rate. Smerdis of Tlön 16:26, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't know about the patience of Job and the wisdom of Solomon; I'll make do with a Ph.D. in theoretical linguistics!
I've started moving my Irish linguistics page from http://www.ling.uni-potsdam.de/~green/gaeilge/gaeilge.htm (where I can no longer update it) to Wikipedia. So don't worry about copyright infringements; this is *my own stuff* I'm copying from there and pasting in here! -- Angr 08:22, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thus spake the text:
/ʃ/ is not strictly a palatoalveolar but rather an alveopalatal fricative [ɕ] like Polish si or Mandarin x.
Erm... which is it? Is it [ʃʲ] as in Polish, or [ɕ] as in Mandarin? The latter sounds like [x] and [ʃʲ] (and/or [sʲ], depending on perhaps the dialect) pronounced at the same time. I mean... erm... say [x], let the tip of the tongue where it is, slowly push the back half of the tongue forwards, et voilà, [ɕ] but not [ʃʲ].
Slender /xʲ/ is a voiceless (post)palatal fricative [ç] like the German ich-Laut. The symbol xʲ is used to emphasize its relationship with the stop /kʲ/ in the system of initial mutations.
Really? I'm just asking because genuine [xʲ] (or perhaps I should write [çʲ]) exists. Russian has it, for example ("chemistry": химия [xʲi(:)mʲija]). The German [x]-[ç] continuum phoneme can become very similar to [xʲ] (most extreme example: Milch), but it never really becomes palatalized. I'm a native speaker of German, and I've had 4 years of Russian in school, so trust me on this :o)
David Marjanović david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at 19:00 CET-summertime 2005/8/21
/ɕ/ and /ç ~ xʲ/ are distinct in Irish; the first is the palatalized equivalent of /s/ and is usually rendered /ʃ/ even though that symbol is not strictly accurate (according to the phonetic descriptions of monoglot or near-monoglot speakers born over a hundred years ago; I doubt whether modern bilingual Irish speakers distinguish between the Irish sound and the English sh sound). The second is the palatalized equivalent of /x/. The symbol ç is more accurate phonetically, but the symbol xʲ more convenient phonologically; this page is concerned with Irish phonology (about which a fair amount has been published), not with Irish phonetics (about which lamentably little has been published). I doubt whether any language can have a phonemic contrast between xʲ and ç. Is there really a difference in articulation between Russian xʲ in химия and German ç in Milch? How can a palatal sound be (phonetically) palatalized anyway? If the primary articulation is palatal, how can there be a secondary articulation in the exact same place? -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 23:59, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Next question: The article says the slender stops can be [c ɟ ɲ] or [k̟ g˖ ŋ˖] depending on the dialect. Does the more or less intermediate realization, [kʲ gʲ ŋʲ], occur anywhere? Do the true palatals occur at all? I'm asking because Wikipedia (and not only Wikipedia) is full of uses of the symbols for the palatal stops for fronted velars, palatalized velars, postalveolar fricatives, alveolopalatal affricates, and maybe palatalized alveolar plosives, and similar confusion reigns for the symbols for the nasal and the lateral. Audio files of palatal plosives and nasals are here. David Marjanović 18:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Is the Irish "r" equivalent to the English "r"? The table says that it is an approximant, as opposed to a trill or a flap. If that is so, shouldn't the symbol be ɹ? Waynem 21:25, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
In my experience, the "r" is quite variable, even among native speakers. Perhaps at least some of this is due to contamination from English? (Older speakers and those in "fior-Ghaeltachts" seem more likely to use a flap.) 38.117.238.82 05:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems that some words that should, according to the article have an aː are pronounced in English with an ɑː, ɒː, or ɔː (e.g. Gardaí, Tánaiste). The words otherwise sound Irish (dental t and d, etc.) Are these variations in Irish pronunciation or is this an English thing? (Watch RTÉ News for examples: [1]).
(This was also posted at Talk:Irish orthography)
- AjaxSmack 01:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Nice article! HeBhagawan 16:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Not only does this pass, I feel like I just took a bath. Don't ask. PASS-- Ling.Nut 05:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It's really an excellent article now. The only thing I really miss at this point is a longer summary at the top. Three or four paragraphs would be reasonable for an article of this length. Haukur 17:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The text says there is a long and a short open vowel in Irish, /a/, /aː/. The image for Connacht implies that the short one is realised to the front whereas the long one to the back. However, the Munster image says that there are two open vowels, one front and one back which can both appear long or short. What is the interpretation of that? Stefán 17:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I suppose this could also go on the FAC page but I might as well put it here.
5 In the table about the potential nasalised vowels, why should I expect that "áth" (ford) could be nasalised? Stefán 17:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Silim go bhfuil do ghrafanna dáthúla go deas!
Maith thú!
159.134.221.58 23:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC) James
Chuir mé nasc nua le fuimeanna eile ón teangeolaí Lughaidh Ó hÉachartaigh/ Loig Cheveau.
They're better in quality to the others, so the might suit staying if you feel so too 159.134.220.189 20:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC) James
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
An interesting start -- but I fear if the goal is to explain how Irish spelling relates to Irish pronunciation, the author will need Job's patience and Solomon's wisdom. :-) An interesting beginning, at any rate. Smerdis of Tlön 16:26, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I don't know about the patience of Job and the wisdom of Solomon; I'll make do with a Ph.D. in theoretical linguistics!
I've started moving my Irish linguistics page from http://www.ling.uni-potsdam.de/~green/gaeilge/gaeilge.htm (where I can no longer update it) to Wikipedia. So don't worry about copyright infringements; this is *my own stuff* I'm copying from there and pasting in here! -- Angr 08:22, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thus spake the text:
/ʃ/ is not strictly a palatoalveolar but rather an alveopalatal fricative [ɕ] like Polish si or Mandarin x.
Erm... which is it? Is it [ʃʲ] as in Polish, or [ɕ] as in Mandarin? The latter sounds like [x] and [ʃʲ] (and/or [sʲ], depending on perhaps the dialect) pronounced at the same time. I mean... erm... say [x], let the tip of the tongue where it is, slowly push the back half of the tongue forwards, et voilà, [ɕ] but not [ʃʲ].
Slender /xʲ/ is a voiceless (post)palatal fricative [ç] like the German ich-Laut. The symbol xʲ is used to emphasize its relationship with the stop /kʲ/ in the system of initial mutations.
Really? I'm just asking because genuine [xʲ] (or perhaps I should write [çʲ]) exists. Russian has it, for example ("chemistry": химия [xʲi(:)mʲija]). The German [x]-[ç] continuum phoneme can become very similar to [xʲ] (most extreme example: Milch), but it never really becomes palatalized. I'm a native speaker of German, and I've had 4 years of Russian in school, so trust me on this :o)
David Marjanović david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at 19:00 CET-summertime 2005/8/21
/ɕ/ and /ç ~ xʲ/ are distinct in Irish; the first is the palatalized equivalent of /s/ and is usually rendered /ʃ/ even though that symbol is not strictly accurate (according to the phonetic descriptions of monoglot or near-monoglot speakers born over a hundred years ago; I doubt whether modern bilingual Irish speakers distinguish between the Irish sound and the English sh sound). The second is the palatalized equivalent of /x/. The symbol ç is more accurate phonetically, but the symbol xʲ more convenient phonologically; this page is concerned with Irish phonology (about which a fair amount has been published), not with Irish phonetics (about which lamentably little has been published). I doubt whether any language can have a phonemic contrast between xʲ and ç. Is there really a difference in articulation between Russian xʲ in химия and German ç in Milch? How can a palatal sound be (phonetically) palatalized anyway? If the primary articulation is palatal, how can there be a secondary articulation in the exact same place? -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 23:59, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Next question: The article says the slender stops can be [c ɟ ɲ] or [k̟ g˖ ŋ˖] depending on the dialect. Does the more or less intermediate realization, [kʲ gʲ ŋʲ], occur anywhere? Do the true palatals occur at all? I'm asking because Wikipedia (and not only Wikipedia) is full of uses of the symbols for the palatal stops for fronted velars, palatalized velars, postalveolar fricatives, alveolopalatal affricates, and maybe palatalized alveolar plosives, and similar confusion reigns for the symbols for the nasal and the lateral. Audio files of palatal plosives and nasals are here. David Marjanović 18:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Is the Irish "r" equivalent to the English "r"? The table says that it is an approximant, as opposed to a trill or a flap. If that is so, shouldn't the symbol be ɹ? Waynem 21:25, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
In my experience, the "r" is quite variable, even among native speakers. Perhaps at least some of this is due to contamination from English? (Older speakers and those in "fior-Ghaeltachts" seem more likely to use a flap.) 38.117.238.82 05:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems that some words that should, according to the article have an aː are pronounced in English with an ɑː, ɒː, or ɔː (e.g. Gardaí, Tánaiste). The words otherwise sound Irish (dental t and d, etc.) Are these variations in Irish pronunciation or is this an English thing? (Watch RTÉ News for examples: [1]).
(This was also posted at Talk:Irish orthography)
- AjaxSmack 01:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Nice article! HeBhagawan 16:34, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Not only does this pass, I feel like I just took a bath. Don't ask. PASS-- Ling.Nut 05:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It's really an excellent article now. The only thing I really miss at this point is a longer summary at the top. Three or four paragraphs would be reasonable for an article of this length. Haukur 17:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The text says there is a long and a short open vowel in Irish, /a/, /aː/. The image for Connacht implies that the short one is realised to the front whereas the long one to the back. However, the Munster image says that there are two open vowels, one front and one back which can both appear long or short. What is the interpretation of that? Stefán 17:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I suppose this could also go on the FAC page but I might as well put it here.
5 In the table about the potential nasalised vowels, why should I expect that "áth" (ford) could be nasalised? Stefán 17:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Silim go bhfuil do ghrafanna dáthúla go deas!
Maith thú!
159.134.221.58 23:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC) James
Chuir mé nasc nua le fuimeanna eile ón teangeolaí Lughaidh Ó hÉachartaigh/ Loig Cheveau.
They're better in quality to the others, so the might suit staying if you feel so too 159.134.220.189 20:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC) James