![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Soledad O'Brien and Jeremy Renner are listed as famous Irish people. While they may have Irish ancestry, they are American. The rest of the celebrities are all from Ireland. So I think they should either be deleted or have their American ancestry mentioned. Including them among actual people from Ireland suggests that they too are from Ireland. Furthermore, I think the 'celebrities' section ought to only include Irish people from Ireland. If we were to list celebrities with Irish heritage from America, Canada, or Australia, the list would be endless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheyCallMeTheEditor ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Irish or Irish descents ( 90 Million????). Wikipedia are you really sure about this. Irish descent being 90 million. Numbers need careful analysis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truth1World ( talk • contribs) 08:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
The opening sentence says: It is predominately religion, historical, and political differences that divide the two communities of (Irish nationalism and British unionism). Surely there are genetic differences, given that the Protestant community is (largely) descended from English and Scots, and the RC community is (largely) descended from Gaelic Irish?
Mooretwin (
talk) 12:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
There would have been genetic differences within Ireland long before the emergence of any political divisions. Languages tend not to be good indicators of dna and some irish mythology (such as the Fir Bolg) hints at the presence in ancient Ireland, of more than one ethnic group. Gaelic became the predominant language by the time anything was being written down (according to some historians there seems to have been something known as "Iron language" or Ivernic still spoken in the Munster region until the start of the medieval period.)
92.235.178.44 (
talk) 07:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Thats a misconception shared by many Scots. There are as many ancient genetic differences within Lowland Scotland, Ireland and elsewhere in both Ireland and Britain according to Stephen Oppenheimer, as there are between the "Lowlands" and "Highlands" (concepts which were non existant until the late Middle Ages at the earliest. There are no specific genetic divisions between the Lowland Scots and the Highland Scots, and even culturally, Lowlanders share a Gaelic past with Ulster Irish (evidence from the East Ulster dialects of Irish indicate that they were nearer to Lowland Scottish Gaelic than they would have been to Munster Irish for instance, and nearer than to Highland modern Scottish Gaelic as well). Modern divisions dont reflect ancient realities. AlbagubrathMegrahi ( talk) 17:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Terryfying to see this genetic debate.
Pre-Roman, most of inhabitants of the British Isels were of Celtic stock, descended ultimately from tribes in North Africa, and related to certain pockets in Anatolia, Brittany, Basque Country.
Post Roman if get more complictated as there is a massive Scandinavian influence (Normans, Vikings) and Germanic (Angles, Saxons, Jutes).
Today there are NO 'genetically pure' (I use that phrase lightly and do not mean to offend or create eugenics overtones) populations of orignal Celts.
What many seem to forget is vast swathes of Ireland and Scotland were also populated by Vikings and that even many areas of England are as Celtic as Ireland and Scotland (Cumberland, West Riding of Yorkshire).
Ignorance is rife in the world.
RF 04-03-2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.149.137 ( talk) 13:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Funny that the American born Eamon de Valera, born to a latin father, is included in the pictures of Irish people when so many actual Irish people are not.-- Play Brian Moore ( talk) 19:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Are Irish really best known for their writers? Shoddy. Dev was da biggest spud in da ooniverse. Trust me I'm his great-grandson.
It's even funnier that you would discriminate against a man who was of half-Irish blood and risked his life for Irish freedom, just because he was also half-Cuban.
75.166.179.110 ( talk) 21:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Many remarks that De Valera are not Irish at all, now I should revised all those errors and perfectly replaced correct images, so to any user, do not remove those.
maybe, but not to erase a good one. 41.249.58.236 ( talk) 19:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.251.17.46 ( talk) 13:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
It says in the info box there are 14 million people with Irish roots, and the source is a single BBC article about a report. On that article it says "But although many hold passionately to their Irish roots, more than half are probably exaggerating or even lying, say the authors of the report." Can a more accurate figure be found than a report whos own author says its 50% incorrect? BritishWatcher ( talk) 00:14, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
A number of recent edits, although in good faith, have led to the article becoming less accessible. The article has become cluttered with images that do not add to the article's context, and paragraphs have been unnecessarily split apart and in some cases lumped together en masse, making them less readable. A short list of things I have removed, reverted or fixed:
I have left the EU flag because it is free licence and I feel it adds something to the section on Europe. The Carrowmore tomb also stays because, aside from the fact that I like the picture, it is recognisably difficult to illustrate the Irish people 8000 years ago.
On a side note, there have been so many anon edits and counter-edits to the People Infobox that I am genuinely confused as to the correct figures and how we are to present them. Can an established user come up with something definitive? --
Grimhelm (
talk) 16:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Surely there is a bit of an exageration of the population numbers here? The numbers given in the info box add up to about 55 million, yet it says there are roughly 80 million Irish worldwide. Where did this figure come from? Isn't it a slight exageration? 84.67.5.68 ( talk) 21:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Correction, they add up to approximately 60 million. However, it still seems ambitious to place the total population at 20 million more. For comparison, the English population worldwide is said to be 90 million, and the figures listed in their infobox add up to 85 million, so 5 million more seems fairly appropriate guess. However, adding 20 million extra seems a little dubious. 84.67.5.68 ( talk) 22:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Quite the contrary, the figure in the USA for Irish descendants is 75 million (America alone). I studied this in college (I Majored in Social Sciences) and the statistics are well known. Therefore the worldwide Irish diaspora is probably far higher than stated in the article, especially once Australia, Canada and the Caribbean are taken into account.
75.166.243.209 ( talk) 00:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
The American community survey, I never heard of that before. I'd like see some evidence about it's accuracy.
75.166.179.110 ( talk) 03:56, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I add some notable Irish people images on The infobox, any suggest ? Ecuadorian Stalker ( talk) 11:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Is Boyle Anglo_irish? We have a reference that says he is. It is good to clarify the point that he is not wholly Irish, so why is an editor continuously removing this pertinent fact? LevenBoy ( talk) 17:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Robert Boyle is Anglo-Irish. Of that there is no doubt. This fact can be referenced at the online Encyclopaedia Britannica. So if there is a consensus here, it's a consensus to have erroneous information. It is a downright falsehood to describe Boyle as an "Irish scientist", so please don't revert the current edit and re-introduce this error. Maybe we can get another consensus, perhaps around no mention of his nationality, but we need to be careful, because this article is about Irish people and it is no good at all labelling Boyle simply as Irish. Maybe we should remove him from the article, but I don't see what the problem is when we clarify that he is Anglo-Irish; it is certainly not POV to do so. LevenBoy ( talk) 18:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I haven't studied the Boyles closely but, if the article is accurate, Boyle lived in Ireland in a close bubble and left at 7 years old to return little if at all. Those who are of powerful English descent and leave in their formative years for England, never to return... well I lived in England for a year myself and aside from the sight-seeing and adventures, the most remarkable thing is not getting to know English people very closely. Why? If you don't immerse in local community (and I mean local school and housing) or local education, work closely with some local people, unless falling in closely with local art culture or local thugs or just spending a good decade there, you were just sightseeing, nothing bad in that alone, but that alone. Boyles father would appear to have babysat the ownership of Ireland. Past experience tells us that ownership or stand-in appointment for Ireland does not often indicate an Irish person, the opposite in fact most often. If someone couldn't come up with some strong Irish ties to Boyle beyond Ireland being a gift of sorts to his fathers management, you should have a strong point that the son was not Irish at all and merely affiliated in an abstract way. There should be planty more information about those earlier years including who his mother was and why she would be dead before he was 8 years old. For anyone who thinks that the moment of birth alone will be the basis of true nationality, or that a mock up of Scottish, Welsh and English makes a person Irish, in any book, wise up? ~ R. T. G 16:12, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Boyle may have been born here but he didnt view himself as irish,nor was he fond of the country. He did all of his best work in England because of the difficulty acquiring scientific equipment and the general lack of academic groups in Ireland at the time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eggilicious ( talk • contribs) 00:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
I replaced the image of Pat Cox with the image of Gerry Adams. I done so, because the infobox represents poorly people from Northern Ireland. However, I must stress that I have no political motive behind this move, in fact, I'm quite impartial. -- MaxPride ( talk) 02:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
In the info box there is a huge amount of people in the UK, US, Canada, Australia, Argentina etc who have Irish ancestry, not of pure Irish ethnicity. I think we need to clarify this, otherwise we are misleading our audiences and that is wrong. Ijanderson ( talk) 00:49, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree, one Irish greatgrandparent wouldn't make you Irish. And if you look on the UK source it says the number 14m is highly doubtful. I suggest the nr of Irish in Britain is for those who live in Northern Ireland only. Drogo ( talk) 20:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't Daniel Day Lewis be included? 84.203.76.144 ( talk) 06:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
It should also be noted that being born in Ireland doesn't make you any better than someone who is not born in Ireland.
Nor does it make you more Irish.
There are now just many different kinds of Irish-- Boston Irish, New York Irish, Australian-Irish, Irish-Canadian, Jamaican-Irish, British-Irish....
Some are also Irish from Ireland, but that doesn't make them any more Irish than anyone else.
It's just another type of Irish-- among the many types of Irish. A small percentage of the whole, actually.
According to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_British
869,093 Irish-born[1] (1.4% of the British population) 6,000,000 with at least 25% Irish ancestry[2] (10% of the British population) 14,000,000 with less than 25% Irish ancestry[2] (25% of the British population)
But ommited from the short table. I smell a rat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.149.137 ( talk) 13:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
75.166.179.110 ( talk) 21:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
This book was written as a popular history over several decades ago, and many of its assertations have little or no foundation in fact. Some include the following:
1 - "One Roman historian records that the Irish people were divided into "sixteen different nations" or tribes.[20]"
2 - "Traditional histories assert that the Romans never attempted to conquer Ireland, although it may have been considered.[20]"
3 - "Irish regiments, referred to as the "Primi Scotti", are recorded in Roman service along the Rhine front.[20]"
4 - "Carausius, appointed Commander in Gaul by Emperor Diocletian, may also have been an Irishman.[22]"
5 - "A number of Irish names are recorded on Columbus' crew roster, preserved in the archives of Madrid, and it was an Irishman named Patrick Maguire who was the first to set foot on American soil in 1492."
I plan to remove these references within two weeks. If anyone objects please give your reasons here. Cheers! Fergananim
Can someone look over that this edit to see if is OK. Thanks. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 00:11, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Why aren't Welsh surnames included such as Walsh, Powers, Griffin/Griffith, etc. The Welsh left a large genetic imprint when they arrived with Strongbow, mainly as mercenaries, in the 12th century.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 09:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Within the last week, this section has been almost completely rewritten. The previous version set out lengthy quotes, summarising research published by Stephen Oppenheimer and Brian Sykes, and expressed no dissenting position from their conclusions. The current version has removed those lengthy quotes (while retaining an apparently barely relevant reference to a view expressed in Wales), and has replaced it with a reference to (allegedly) more recent research which is highly critical of Oppenheimer and Sykes and comes to different conclusions. The editor responsible for these changes - User:DinDraithou - has sought to make similar changes on other articles - for example, see Talk:Genetic history of the British Isles#Problems with sources (possible deletion or merge candidate). It seems to me that what is needed in this article is a more balanced and neutral overview, which for the benefit of the general reader clearly summarises all sides in what is clearly a contentious and unresolved area of current debate - which, as an editor who has been (falsely) described as an "Oppenheimer supporter", it would not be appropriate for me to do. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
I confess to leaving my original paragraph with the new studies a little impenetrable and that Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) doesn't help at all. I write as someone with a background in Indo-European studies who has followed population genetics on and off for years and have forgotten this is Wikipedia, not some special little thread somewhere. When I've gotten a few more new and helpful studies together I'll add them. People must be wondering precisely how on Earth are the Irish not genetic outliers in Europe given alleged substantial differences in language and culture. But looking at the entire genetic picture they appear quite similar not only to the Brits but to the French and even to the geographically distant Czechs a bit ( Autosomal), many of whom are R1a. All of this is very difficult to explain and I will need help since I'm not good at explaining. DinDraithou ( talk) 00:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Why is this sub-section titled 'Genetics'. Is this some all encompassing thesis on the genetic make-up of all Irish people, or what exactly is its purpose? It also appears to be growing out of any reasonable proportion to the rest of the article. RashersTierney ( talk) 19:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
New discussion: July 2013 This page has many dubious or biased details throughout. Can it be rewritten by someone from the Republic of Ireland? Just saying, it sounds like "British History" to this American. There are just odd, random, esoteric references, additions, and things left out that the rest of the world knows about the history, escapades and celebrity of the Irish. New genetics discoveries have been made in the last 4 years since these discussions. Also, "Black Irish" has more connotations and more political overtones than discussed. It may not refer to color at all, and if or when it does it is within other references to non-viking/non-anglo dark hair. "Dark" in the Irish language often references intentions and danger. My family, with the darker hair (from the middle east through Iberia, not Basque as was thought recently) were from Limerick, and their (all of Munster) Catholicism and hair "branded" them "black Irish"-- a little more "native" a little more Catholic, less interbred with Anglos than with darker Normans, a little more Republican, and therefore very "dangerous" in the past many centuries. Even the city motto for Limerick refers to the ancient and fierce city. In any case a researcher can find proper citations for new information on genetics. I know it is a big section because there are so many fascinating theories. Irishstones ( talk) 17:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Created a page for Ross Daly which is an Irish musician. Anyone likes to help. Kasaalan ( talk) 16:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
There is citation in the infobox that reads:
Where did this citation come from? I suggest it be removed. -- RA ( talk) 17:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
"Related ethnic groups" needs confirmation. Unsourced statements tagged from December 2008, September 2009 and February 2010. Needs additional references, tagged from February 2010. To be expanded, tagged from February 2010 and March 2010. Tom B ( talk) 17:06, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Personally I think that many sections of this article are not good - I particularly refer to the section titled "Celebrities". The contents could be likened to content in "OK" or "Hello" magazines or other similar shallow junk. I would contend that most of these people are not worthy of celebrity status - most are already forgotten (if they were ever "known" in the first place) or will be forgotten shortly. I am no fan of Gay Byrne but he may be worthy of a mention here as he has made various useful contributions to society over the years. "Celebrity" should apply to those with much more depth to their contribution than most of those listed. Comhar ( talk) 22:06, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Nothing happening, delisting Tom B ( talk) 22:26, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
As one of the greatest in the history of English theatre and literature, Oscar Wilde fails to make it into the infobox whereas Bono sits front row? Smells "biased" to me... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.131.9.97 ( talk) 05:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
If this article is supposed to be about the Irish ethnicity then Oscar Wilde shouldn't be included. He wasn't ethnically Irish. Neither was Arthur Guinness though as his descent noted on a genealogy documentary. This article needs to make up it's mind about what it is about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dies Mercurii ( talk • contribs) 17:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
I share Scolaire's concern over this new coat of arms, which is allegedly "same arms in image you used, though new iamge is more detailed and correctly labeled". The arms are clearly not the same, and I too would request a source for this image to prove the depiction of it is not some creative invention. O Fenian ( talk) 10:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Alexander, I'm sorry to see you coming under such critical fire lately and I would agree that there's no need for this discussion to get smeared over so many talk pages. My biggest concern, however, is that you have displayed a complete and utter lack of understanding of our core policies on the topic of reliable sources. When I asked you to provide a good source for your work, you acted surprised and assumed that I did so “because you [=me] personally don't know much about the subject?” (that’s priceless though!). If and when you do source your images, guess where we leave the appropriate references. Clue: it’s not on some talk page. And did you really think coming up with a handful of self-published websites would settle things. Clue: the answer is to be found at WP:RS. Also, I don't know what age you are, but please stop the kindergarten attitude ("You did not scream source for the old image").
As for the extent to which a bit of poetic (or graphic) licence is allowed for Wikipedian purposes, I’ll leave that for you ‘ll to discuss. You seem to be fond of the embellishments because (a) you like the look of them and (b) “do not like to leave noble or royal arms simpler than a commoners arms”, but other editors here have pointed out to you that the style is inappropriate in the context and one might add, the general reader may not interpret things the way you intend them. In any event, some sort of disclaimer would be appreciated.
Apologies if I sound like your nanny, but it’s necessary to get back to basics sometimes. Cavila ( talk) 23:56, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
All good points, RA ( talk). Another point I'm noticing, is this about putting the image on Irish People or is this really more about Xanderliptak putting his works on Leo VIII? Because I'm seeing posts about Leo below. Malke 2010 00:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Heraldry and palm reading are not in any way related, so you can not apply the standards of one to the other. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 13:17, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
FYI, somewhat systematic WP:Canvassing, e.g. as in User_talk:DinDraithou#Hello, User_talk:7_Letters#Hello from the user. History2007 ( talk) 19:52, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
A editor has raised the question of removing the ability to pipe link the title of the British Isles template. Currently, on this page, it pipe links as [[British Isles|Great Britain & Ireland]]. The editor would like this ability to be removed.
Discussion is taking place here. --RA ( talk) 08:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Why did irish people begin to speak english and why did english become the dominant language in ireland? What were the benefits of speaking english in ireland in the past? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.132.30 ( talk) 19:23, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
Irish was outlawed, to work you had to speak english. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 12:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Apparently there are 5000 - 10000 Irish people in Armenia. Sadly, this fact is uncited so we can't check. It was deleted today but has been re-instated. Obviously, we could add a "citation needed" tag, but ... the original edit was made here, part of a series of spurious amendments by IPs, most of which were reverted. Looks like this one was overlooked. I have deleted the infobox entry for Irish people in Armenia, as it seems unlikely. If it turns out there is a significant population of Irish people in Armenia it can be reinstated. If it is cited, of course. Daicaregos ( talk) 13:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Figures from the US Census Bureau here (under Ancestry, the last section analysis) show US citizens of Irish ancestry to be 36,495,800. They also show US citizens of Scotch-Irish [sic] ancestry to be 5,313,956. A total of 41,809,756 US citizens seem to have Irish ancestry. Have these been double-counted, or should this figure be quoted in the infobox? Apoligies if this has been discussed previously. Daicaregos ( talk) 14:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
The photo of Carrowmore states it is from 6000BC. This is incorrect as dates from the earlist monument is, albeit controversially, put at an earliest of the mid 4th centurty BC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sensibleken ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Since when was George Best Irish? He was one of the unionist protestant community thats apparently an entirely different race from the Irish. You might as well include Ian Paisley in that list if Best is there. Hachimanchu ( talk) 23:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
"I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman." - Ian Paisley, Sunday Life, June 1991
"Since a split in Irish soccer in the 1920s, the Football Association of Ireland runs internatioinal and domestic soccer in the Republic. In Northern Ireland, the Irish Football League organises domestic football, while the international aspect is handled by the Irish Football Association. ... Ireland has produced great players like Johnny Carey, George Best, Pat Jennings, Liam Brady, Niall Quinn, Johnny Giles, Roy Keane and Damien Duff, all of whom have emigrated to English clubs. It is they - along with British players with some Irish ancestry - who dominate the national teams." - Ruth Dudley Edwards, Bridget Hourican, An atlas of Irish history, 3rd Edition, Routledge: London, 2005, page 239
I agree with Jeanne boleyn. Irish Protestants are as Irish as it gets. The idea that there is some sort of any "genetic" difference is a myth. "Irishness" is a mindset; in taking part in modern gaelic culture they are by definition ethnically Irish. I live an area with a fair few Church of Ireland churches, and all protestants I know speak some level of Irish and go mad for their county in the All Ireland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acamdc88 ( talk • contribs) 16:35, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
...why? I was nearly flabbergasted spotting them here, under "Celebrities". The thing really isn't that I objected! They are of Irish descent, all right, no argument intended. But so is John Lennon?! Where's he? Why then mention the Gallaghers, yet not Lennon? Or, indeed, why not only Lennon instead of Liam & Noel, as he's arguably still a bit more popular than both of the Gallaghers? Neither John Lennon, nor the Gallagher brothers have been born in Ireland, and neither John Lennon, nor the Gallagher brothers, at any time, held Irish citizenship. So this can hardly be the crux. The sole difference I can think of is one of "hereditary distance", since it's of course the parents in the Gallagher's case, whereas it's "only" the grandfather in Lennon's case, who were Irish. Is this the whole story? If so, is it fair? Is it reasonable? Because, at the same time and even within the English Wikipedia, Lennon is very much included in the category termed "English people of Irish descent", which, for some odd reason I cannot directly link right now. Thus here's the raw form, for comfort's sake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_people_of_Irish_descent. You'll easily find him, just as the Gallagher brothers, and it certainly wasn't me who put him in. ;-) But I am somewhat missing him here. At least before turning USian, he's hardly ever been (let alone been perceived as, especially not overseas/internationally) or behaved "less English", or "less British", than are the Gallaghers. Alternatively, in what sense could the latter be supposed to be "more Irish" than Lennon? Don't get me wrong please: I'm all okay with Liam and Noel. But I'm also pro Lennon. The one or other opinion on that would be very kind.
Just after typing the above and out of mere curiosity, I did a just as brief as lackadaisical search and, among other things, happened across this one: http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/john_lennon_irish_roots.htm
It isn't intended as a 'reference' and much less in order to 'prove' anything. I'm not even sure whether this is serious stuff, or rather some kind of satire or something. But it is quite about what I had in mind and I'm referring to it just to make that clearer. Zero Thrust ( talk) 06:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Under the Religion heading the discussion quickly moves onto the question of Irish Identity. Therefore in response to the last sentence under the religion heading I added the section below. However my addition was removed, the reason being 'religion' is not the best heading to add this to. I ask, why then does most of that under the heading of Religion, deal with identity? and since it does primarily deal with identity, why then shouldn't this addition be included?
The question of Irish identity, and what defines an Irishman, was elucidated by the Prominent Irish nationalist Thomas Davis:
It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish Nation [1].
.The question of 'Irishness' is also examined in the Irish language film Yu Ming Is Ainm Dom where a Chinese man learns the Irish language before visiting Ireland, only to find no one understands him upon his arrival in Dublin. This would also be a classic case of being More Irish than the Irish themselves.
Boundarylayer ( talk) 17:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I removed the "(themselves of Irish origin)" from the statement "The main groups the Irish interacted with were the Picts, Scots (themselves of Irish origin) and the Vikings" or something along those lines that isn't an exact quote. There is absolutely no archaeological evidence to suggest the Dalriadans (aka Scots) invaded or colonised Western Scotland from Ireland. None whatsoever other than the spread of Goidelic languages to that particular area. However by that reasoning a native African who natively spoke English or French would be of English or French descent. It was no more than cultural conversion. It's incredibly common throughout history. Ancient Irish annals even stated that the Dalriadans had NO kin in Ireland. Which would be impossible surely if they had actually originated there. On a final note it was tribes from Scotland who first began to inhabit Ireland. So technically by that reasoning the Dalriadans would originally be of Scottish ancestry even if they had invaded from Ireland, which evidence would suggest they didn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.192.170 ( talk) 21:46, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm so glad you jumped to that conclusion. I'm actually a Scottish nationalist. I'm not anti-Irish in the slightest. I also don't support Rangers. I support Partick Thistle but I'm not really hugely interested in football at all..
"yet you come to an article about Irish people NOT SCOTTISH people."
Can't I read articles about other peoples ? I merely noticed that inaccurate statement referring to my own people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.192.170 ( talk) 21:52, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Are YOU a Celtic fan ? Born in Scotland to Scottish parents yet singing Irish songs and waving Irish flags at games ? And claiming Irish descent through the bizarre logic of ancestry ? Which is really no more than a modern day gimmick to promote Irish tourism around the world.. You do know that by the logic of ancestry we (human beings in any part of the world) would all be of African descent ? And that every Irish person would be of Scottish, English and/or Welsh ancestry ? Irritating when it's the other way around isn't it ? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.104.192.170 (
talk) 22:01, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Anyway this isn't the place for agendas and such. It's a place of fact. The Dalriadans did not invade or colonise Western Scotland from Ireland. There's simply NO evidence to suggest they did. That is the reason I removed it. Because it's not fact. Do you think the Dalriadans were the only celtic peoples in Scotland or something ? The Picts and the Strathclydemen were both classified as celtic. As were the Dalriadans. I have no problem with that classification. Why would I ? I do have a problem with people stating the Dalriadans originated in Ireland when in fact evidence would strongly suggest they didn't.. I don't know how I can make that any clearer. Do you know much about celtic history ? I don't think you do otherwise you'd be aware that celtic culture actually originated in what is now Germany, Austria and several other Central European countries. It did not originate in Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.192.170 ( talk) 22:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
I'd have thought the various lists of people should be drastically cut. What is there is pure original research in that it is whatever the first person who came long stuck in, and now more are disallowed because they are too long. The lists should all refer to List of Irish people with just a few mentioned in secondary source as being outstanding over others as such, not just anybody who actually is a comedian and Irish for instance. Dmcq ( talk) 12:29, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
Soledad O'Brien and Jeremy Renner are listed as famous Irish people. While they may have Irish ancestry, they are American. The rest of the celebrities are all from Ireland. So I think they should either be deleted or have their American ancestry mentioned. Including them among actual people from Ireland suggests that they too are from Ireland. Furthermore, I think the 'celebrities' section ought to only include Irish people from Ireland. If we were to list celebrities with Irish heritage from America, Canada, or Australia, the list would be endless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheyCallMeTheEditor ( talk • contribs) 03:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Irish or Irish descents ( 90 Million????). Wikipedia are you really sure about this. Irish descent being 90 million. Numbers need careful analysis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truth1World ( talk • contribs) 08:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
The opening sentence says: It is predominately religion, historical, and political differences that divide the two communities of (Irish nationalism and British unionism). Surely there are genetic differences, given that the Protestant community is (largely) descended from English and Scots, and the RC community is (largely) descended from Gaelic Irish?
Mooretwin (
talk) 12:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
There would have been genetic differences within Ireland long before the emergence of any political divisions. Languages tend not to be good indicators of dna and some irish mythology (such as the Fir Bolg) hints at the presence in ancient Ireland, of more than one ethnic group. Gaelic became the predominant language by the time anything was being written down (according to some historians there seems to have been something known as "Iron language" or Ivernic still spoken in the Munster region until the start of the medieval period.)
92.235.178.44 (
talk) 07:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
Thats a misconception shared by many Scots. There are as many ancient genetic differences within Lowland Scotland, Ireland and elsewhere in both Ireland and Britain according to Stephen Oppenheimer, as there are between the "Lowlands" and "Highlands" (concepts which were non existant until the late Middle Ages at the earliest. There are no specific genetic divisions between the Lowland Scots and the Highland Scots, and even culturally, Lowlanders share a Gaelic past with Ulster Irish (evidence from the East Ulster dialects of Irish indicate that they were nearer to Lowland Scottish Gaelic than they would have been to Munster Irish for instance, and nearer than to Highland modern Scottish Gaelic as well). Modern divisions dont reflect ancient realities. AlbagubrathMegrahi ( talk) 17:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Terryfying to see this genetic debate.
Pre-Roman, most of inhabitants of the British Isels were of Celtic stock, descended ultimately from tribes in North Africa, and related to certain pockets in Anatolia, Brittany, Basque Country.
Post Roman if get more complictated as there is a massive Scandinavian influence (Normans, Vikings) and Germanic (Angles, Saxons, Jutes).
Today there are NO 'genetically pure' (I use that phrase lightly and do not mean to offend or create eugenics overtones) populations of orignal Celts.
What many seem to forget is vast swathes of Ireland and Scotland were also populated by Vikings and that even many areas of England are as Celtic as Ireland and Scotland (Cumberland, West Riding of Yorkshire).
Ignorance is rife in the world.
RF 04-03-2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.149.137 ( talk) 13:13, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Funny that the American born Eamon de Valera, born to a latin father, is included in the pictures of Irish people when so many actual Irish people are not.-- Play Brian Moore ( talk) 19:26, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Are Irish really best known for their writers? Shoddy. Dev was da biggest spud in da ooniverse. Trust me I'm his great-grandson.
It's even funnier that you would discriminate against a man who was of half-Irish blood and risked his life for Irish freedom, just because he was also half-Cuban.
75.166.179.110 ( talk) 21:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Many remarks that De Valera are not Irish at all, now I should revised all those errors and perfectly replaced correct images, so to any user, do not remove those.
maybe, but not to erase a good one. 41.249.58.236 ( talk) 19:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.251.17.46 ( talk) 13:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
It says in the info box there are 14 million people with Irish roots, and the source is a single BBC article about a report. On that article it says "But although many hold passionately to their Irish roots, more than half are probably exaggerating or even lying, say the authors of the report." Can a more accurate figure be found than a report whos own author says its 50% incorrect? BritishWatcher ( talk) 00:14, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
A number of recent edits, although in good faith, have led to the article becoming less accessible. The article has become cluttered with images that do not add to the article's context, and paragraphs have been unnecessarily split apart and in some cases lumped together en masse, making them less readable. A short list of things I have removed, reverted or fixed:
I have left the EU flag because it is free licence and I feel it adds something to the section on Europe. The Carrowmore tomb also stays because, aside from the fact that I like the picture, it is recognisably difficult to illustrate the Irish people 8000 years ago.
On a side note, there have been so many anon edits and counter-edits to the People Infobox that I am genuinely confused as to the correct figures and how we are to present them. Can an established user come up with something definitive? --
Grimhelm (
talk) 16:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Surely there is a bit of an exageration of the population numbers here? The numbers given in the info box add up to about 55 million, yet it says there are roughly 80 million Irish worldwide. Where did this figure come from? Isn't it a slight exageration? 84.67.5.68 ( talk) 21:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Correction, they add up to approximately 60 million. However, it still seems ambitious to place the total population at 20 million more. For comparison, the English population worldwide is said to be 90 million, and the figures listed in their infobox add up to 85 million, so 5 million more seems fairly appropriate guess. However, adding 20 million extra seems a little dubious. 84.67.5.68 ( talk) 22:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Quite the contrary, the figure in the USA for Irish descendants is 75 million (America alone). I studied this in college (I Majored in Social Sciences) and the statistics are well known. Therefore the worldwide Irish diaspora is probably far higher than stated in the article, especially once Australia, Canada and the Caribbean are taken into account.
75.166.243.209 ( talk) 00:50, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
The American community survey, I never heard of that before. I'd like see some evidence about it's accuracy.
75.166.179.110 ( talk) 03:56, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I add some notable Irish people images on The infobox, any suggest ? Ecuadorian Stalker ( talk) 11:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Is Boyle Anglo_irish? We have a reference that says he is. It is good to clarify the point that he is not wholly Irish, so why is an editor continuously removing this pertinent fact? LevenBoy ( talk) 17:43, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Robert Boyle is Anglo-Irish. Of that there is no doubt. This fact can be referenced at the online Encyclopaedia Britannica. So if there is a consensus here, it's a consensus to have erroneous information. It is a downright falsehood to describe Boyle as an "Irish scientist", so please don't revert the current edit and re-introduce this error. Maybe we can get another consensus, perhaps around no mention of his nationality, but we need to be careful, because this article is about Irish people and it is no good at all labelling Boyle simply as Irish. Maybe we should remove him from the article, but I don't see what the problem is when we clarify that he is Anglo-Irish; it is certainly not POV to do so. LevenBoy ( talk) 18:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I haven't studied the Boyles closely but, if the article is accurate, Boyle lived in Ireland in a close bubble and left at 7 years old to return little if at all. Those who are of powerful English descent and leave in their formative years for England, never to return... well I lived in England for a year myself and aside from the sight-seeing and adventures, the most remarkable thing is not getting to know English people very closely. Why? If you don't immerse in local community (and I mean local school and housing) or local education, work closely with some local people, unless falling in closely with local art culture or local thugs or just spending a good decade there, you were just sightseeing, nothing bad in that alone, but that alone. Boyles father would appear to have babysat the ownership of Ireland. Past experience tells us that ownership or stand-in appointment for Ireland does not often indicate an Irish person, the opposite in fact most often. If someone couldn't come up with some strong Irish ties to Boyle beyond Ireland being a gift of sorts to his fathers management, you should have a strong point that the son was not Irish at all and merely affiliated in an abstract way. There should be planty more information about those earlier years including who his mother was and why she would be dead before he was 8 years old. For anyone who thinks that the moment of birth alone will be the basis of true nationality, or that a mock up of Scottish, Welsh and English makes a person Irish, in any book, wise up? ~ R. T. G 16:12, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Boyle may have been born here but he didnt view himself as irish,nor was he fond of the country. He did all of his best work in England because of the difficulty acquiring scientific equipment and the general lack of academic groups in Ireland at the time — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eggilicious ( talk • contribs) 00:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
I replaced the image of Pat Cox with the image of Gerry Adams. I done so, because the infobox represents poorly people from Northern Ireland. However, I must stress that I have no political motive behind this move, in fact, I'm quite impartial. -- MaxPride ( talk) 02:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
In the info box there is a huge amount of people in the UK, US, Canada, Australia, Argentina etc who have Irish ancestry, not of pure Irish ethnicity. I think we need to clarify this, otherwise we are misleading our audiences and that is wrong. Ijanderson ( talk) 00:49, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree, one Irish greatgrandparent wouldn't make you Irish. And if you look on the UK source it says the number 14m is highly doubtful. I suggest the nr of Irish in Britain is for those who live in Northern Ireland only. Drogo ( talk) 20:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't Daniel Day Lewis be included? 84.203.76.144 ( talk) 06:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
It should also be noted that being born in Ireland doesn't make you any better than someone who is not born in Ireland.
Nor does it make you more Irish.
There are now just many different kinds of Irish-- Boston Irish, New York Irish, Australian-Irish, Irish-Canadian, Jamaican-Irish, British-Irish....
Some are also Irish from Ireland, but that doesn't make them any more Irish than anyone else.
It's just another type of Irish-- among the many types of Irish. A small percentage of the whole, actually.
According to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_British
869,093 Irish-born[1] (1.4% of the British population) 6,000,000 with at least 25% Irish ancestry[2] (10% of the British population) 14,000,000 with less than 25% Irish ancestry[2] (25% of the British population)
But ommited from the short table. I smell a rat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.149.137 ( talk) 13:16, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
75.166.179.110 ( talk) 21:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
This book was written as a popular history over several decades ago, and many of its assertations have little or no foundation in fact. Some include the following:
1 - "One Roman historian records that the Irish people were divided into "sixteen different nations" or tribes.[20]"
2 - "Traditional histories assert that the Romans never attempted to conquer Ireland, although it may have been considered.[20]"
3 - "Irish regiments, referred to as the "Primi Scotti", are recorded in Roman service along the Rhine front.[20]"
4 - "Carausius, appointed Commander in Gaul by Emperor Diocletian, may also have been an Irishman.[22]"
5 - "A number of Irish names are recorded on Columbus' crew roster, preserved in the archives of Madrid, and it was an Irishman named Patrick Maguire who was the first to set foot on American soil in 1492."
I plan to remove these references within two weeks. If anyone objects please give your reasons here. Cheers! Fergananim
Can someone look over that this edit to see if is OK. Thanks. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid ( coṁrá) 00:11, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Why aren't Welsh surnames included such as Walsh, Powers, Griffin/Griffith, etc. The Welsh left a large genetic imprint when they arrived with Strongbow, mainly as mercenaries, in the 12th century.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 09:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Within the last week, this section has been almost completely rewritten. The previous version set out lengthy quotes, summarising research published by Stephen Oppenheimer and Brian Sykes, and expressed no dissenting position from their conclusions. The current version has removed those lengthy quotes (while retaining an apparently barely relevant reference to a view expressed in Wales), and has replaced it with a reference to (allegedly) more recent research which is highly critical of Oppenheimer and Sykes and comes to different conclusions. The editor responsible for these changes - User:DinDraithou - has sought to make similar changes on other articles - for example, see Talk:Genetic history of the British Isles#Problems with sources (possible deletion or merge candidate). It seems to me that what is needed in this article is a more balanced and neutral overview, which for the benefit of the general reader clearly summarises all sides in what is clearly a contentious and unresolved area of current debate - which, as an editor who has been (falsely) described as an "Oppenheimer supporter", it would not be appropriate for me to do. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 08:26, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
I confess to leaving my original paragraph with the new studies a little impenetrable and that Haplogroup R1b (Y-DNA) doesn't help at all. I write as someone with a background in Indo-European studies who has followed population genetics on and off for years and have forgotten this is Wikipedia, not some special little thread somewhere. When I've gotten a few more new and helpful studies together I'll add them. People must be wondering precisely how on Earth are the Irish not genetic outliers in Europe given alleged substantial differences in language and culture. But looking at the entire genetic picture they appear quite similar not only to the Brits but to the French and even to the geographically distant Czechs a bit ( Autosomal), many of whom are R1a. All of this is very difficult to explain and I will need help since I'm not good at explaining. DinDraithou ( talk) 00:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Why is this sub-section titled 'Genetics'. Is this some all encompassing thesis on the genetic make-up of all Irish people, or what exactly is its purpose? It also appears to be growing out of any reasonable proportion to the rest of the article. RashersTierney ( talk) 19:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
New discussion: July 2013 This page has many dubious or biased details throughout. Can it be rewritten by someone from the Republic of Ireland? Just saying, it sounds like "British History" to this American. There are just odd, random, esoteric references, additions, and things left out that the rest of the world knows about the history, escapades and celebrity of the Irish. New genetics discoveries have been made in the last 4 years since these discussions. Also, "Black Irish" has more connotations and more political overtones than discussed. It may not refer to color at all, and if or when it does it is within other references to non-viking/non-anglo dark hair. "Dark" in the Irish language often references intentions and danger. My family, with the darker hair (from the middle east through Iberia, not Basque as was thought recently) were from Limerick, and their (all of Munster) Catholicism and hair "branded" them "black Irish"-- a little more "native" a little more Catholic, less interbred with Anglos than with darker Normans, a little more Republican, and therefore very "dangerous" in the past many centuries. Even the city motto for Limerick refers to the ancient and fierce city. In any case a researcher can find proper citations for new information on genetics. I know it is a big section because there are so many fascinating theories. Irishstones ( talk) 17:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Created a page for Ross Daly which is an Irish musician. Anyone likes to help. Kasaalan ( talk) 16:12, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
There is citation in the infobox that reads:
Where did this citation come from? I suggest it be removed. -- RA ( talk) 17:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
"Related ethnic groups" needs confirmation. Unsourced statements tagged from December 2008, September 2009 and February 2010. Needs additional references, tagged from February 2010. To be expanded, tagged from February 2010 and March 2010. Tom B ( talk) 17:06, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Personally I think that many sections of this article are not good - I particularly refer to the section titled "Celebrities". The contents could be likened to content in "OK" or "Hello" magazines or other similar shallow junk. I would contend that most of these people are not worthy of celebrity status - most are already forgotten (if they were ever "known" in the first place) or will be forgotten shortly. I am no fan of Gay Byrne but he may be worthy of a mention here as he has made various useful contributions to society over the years. "Celebrity" should apply to those with much more depth to their contribution than most of those listed. Comhar ( talk) 22:06, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Nothing happening, delisting Tom B ( talk) 22:26, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
As one of the greatest in the history of English theatre and literature, Oscar Wilde fails to make it into the infobox whereas Bono sits front row? Smells "biased" to me... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.131.9.97 ( talk) 05:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
If this article is supposed to be about the Irish ethnicity then Oscar Wilde shouldn't be included. He wasn't ethnically Irish. Neither was Arthur Guinness though as his descent noted on a genealogy documentary. This article needs to make up it's mind about what it is about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dies Mercurii ( talk • contribs) 17:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
I share Scolaire's concern over this new coat of arms, which is allegedly "same arms in image you used, though new iamge is more detailed and correctly labeled". The arms are clearly not the same, and I too would request a source for this image to prove the depiction of it is not some creative invention. O Fenian ( talk) 10:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Alexander, I'm sorry to see you coming under such critical fire lately and I would agree that there's no need for this discussion to get smeared over so many talk pages. My biggest concern, however, is that you have displayed a complete and utter lack of understanding of our core policies on the topic of reliable sources. When I asked you to provide a good source for your work, you acted surprised and assumed that I did so “because you [=me] personally don't know much about the subject?” (that’s priceless though!). If and when you do source your images, guess where we leave the appropriate references. Clue: it’s not on some talk page. And did you really think coming up with a handful of self-published websites would settle things. Clue: the answer is to be found at WP:RS. Also, I don't know what age you are, but please stop the kindergarten attitude ("You did not scream source for the old image").
As for the extent to which a bit of poetic (or graphic) licence is allowed for Wikipedian purposes, I’ll leave that for you ‘ll to discuss. You seem to be fond of the embellishments because (a) you like the look of them and (b) “do not like to leave noble or royal arms simpler than a commoners arms”, but other editors here have pointed out to you that the style is inappropriate in the context and one might add, the general reader may not interpret things the way you intend them. In any event, some sort of disclaimer would be appreciated.
Apologies if I sound like your nanny, but it’s necessary to get back to basics sometimes. Cavila ( talk) 23:56, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
All good points, RA ( talk). Another point I'm noticing, is this about putting the image on Irish People or is this really more about Xanderliptak putting his works on Leo VIII? Because I'm seeing posts about Leo below. Malke 2010 00:15, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Heraldry and palm reading are not in any way related, so you can not apply the standards of one to the other. [tk] XANDERLIPTAK 13:17, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
FYI, somewhat systematic WP:Canvassing, e.g. as in User_talk:DinDraithou#Hello, User_talk:7_Letters#Hello from the user. History2007 ( talk) 19:52, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
A editor has raised the question of removing the ability to pipe link the title of the British Isles template. Currently, on this page, it pipe links as [[British Isles|Great Britain & Ireland]]. The editor would like this ability to be removed.
Discussion is taking place here. --RA ( talk) 08:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Why did irish people begin to speak english and why did english become the dominant language in ireland? What were the benefits of speaking english in ireland in the past? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.132.30 ( talk) 19:23, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
Irish was outlawed, to work you had to speak english. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boundarylayer ( talk • contribs) 12:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Apparently there are 5000 - 10000 Irish people in Armenia. Sadly, this fact is uncited so we can't check. It was deleted today but has been re-instated. Obviously, we could add a "citation needed" tag, but ... the original edit was made here, part of a series of spurious amendments by IPs, most of which were reverted. Looks like this one was overlooked. I have deleted the infobox entry for Irish people in Armenia, as it seems unlikely. If it turns out there is a significant population of Irish people in Armenia it can be reinstated. If it is cited, of course. Daicaregos ( talk) 13:46, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Figures from the US Census Bureau here (under Ancestry, the last section analysis) show US citizens of Irish ancestry to be 36,495,800. They also show US citizens of Scotch-Irish [sic] ancestry to be 5,313,956. A total of 41,809,756 US citizens seem to have Irish ancestry. Have these been double-counted, or should this figure be quoted in the infobox? Apoligies if this has been discussed previously. Daicaregos ( talk) 14:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
The photo of Carrowmore states it is from 6000BC. This is incorrect as dates from the earlist monument is, albeit controversially, put at an earliest of the mid 4th centurty BC — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sensibleken ( talk • contribs) 16:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
Since when was George Best Irish? He was one of the unionist protestant community thats apparently an entirely different race from the Irish. You might as well include Ian Paisley in that list if Best is there. Hachimanchu ( talk) 23:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
"I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman." - Ian Paisley, Sunday Life, June 1991
"Since a split in Irish soccer in the 1920s, the Football Association of Ireland runs internatioinal and domestic soccer in the Republic. In Northern Ireland, the Irish Football League organises domestic football, while the international aspect is handled by the Irish Football Association. ... Ireland has produced great players like Johnny Carey, George Best, Pat Jennings, Liam Brady, Niall Quinn, Johnny Giles, Roy Keane and Damien Duff, all of whom have emigrated to English clubs. It is they - along with British players with some Irish ancestry - who dominate the national teams." - Ruth Dudley Edwards, Bridget Hourican, An atlas of Irish history, 3rd Edition, Routledge: London, 2005, page 239
I agree with Jeanne boleyn. Irish Protestants are as Irish as it gets. The idea that there is some sort of any "genetic" difference is a myth. "Irishness" is a mindset; in taking part in modern gaelic culture they are by definition ethnically Irish. I live an area with a fair few Church of Ireland churches, and all protestants I know speak some level of Irish and go mad for their county in the All Ireland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acamdc88 ( talk • contribs) 16:35, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
...why? I was nearly flabbergasted spotting them here, under "Celebrities". The thing really isn't that I objected! They are of Irish descent, all right, no argument intended. But so is John Lennon?! Where's he? Why then mention the Gallaghers, yet not Lennon? Or, indeed, why not only Lennon instead of Liam & Noel, as he's arguably still a bit more popular than both of the Gallaghers? Neither John Lennon, nor the Gallagher brothers have been born in Ireland, and neither John Lennon, nor the Gallagher brothers, at any time, held Irish citizenship. So this can hardly be the crux. The sole difference I can think of is one of "hereditary distance", since it's of course the parents in the Gallagher's case, whereas it's "only" the grandfather in Lennon's case, who were Irish. Is this the whole story? If so, is it fair? Is it reasonable? Because, at the same time and even within the English Wikipedia, Lennon is very much included in the category termed "English people of Irish descent", which, for some odd reason I cannot directly link right now. Thus here's the raw form, for comfort's sake: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:English_people_of_Irish_descent. You'll easily find him, just as the Gallagher brothers, and it certainly wasn't me who put him in. ;-) But I am somewhat missing him here. At least before turning USian, he's hardly ever been (let alone been perceived as, especially not overseas/internationally) or behaved "less English", or "less British", than are the Gallaghers. Alternatively, in what sense could the latter be supposed to be "more Irish" than Lennon? Don't get me wrong please: I'm all okay with Liam and Noel. But I'm also pro Lennon. The one or other opinion on that would be very kind.
Just after typing the above and out of mere curiosity, I did a just as brief as lackadaisical search and, among other things, happened across this one: http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/john_lennon_irish_roots.htm
It isn't intended as a 'reference' and much less in order to 'prove' anything. I'm not even sure whether this is serious stuff, or rather some kind of satire or something. But it is quite about what I had in mind and I'm referring to it just to make that clearer. Zero Thrust ( talk) 06:00, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Under the Religion heading the discussion quickly moves onto the question of Irish Identity. Therefore in response to the last sentence under the religion heading I added the section below. However my addition was removed, the reason being 'religion' is not the best heading to add this to. I ask, why then does most of that under the heading of Religion, deal with identity? and since it does primarily deal with identity, why then shouldn't this addition be included?
The question of Irish identity, and what defines an Irishman, was elucidated by the Prominent Irish nationalist Thomas Davis:
It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish Nation [1].
.The question of 'Irishness' is also examined in the Irish language film Yu Ming Is Ainm Dom where a Chinese man learns the Irish language before visiting Ireland, only to find no one understands him upon his arrival in Dublin. This would also be a classic case of being More Irish than the Irish themselves.
Boundarylayer ( talk) 17:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I removed the "(themselves of Irish origin)" from the statement "The main groups the Irish interacted with were the Picts, Scots (themselves of Irish origin) and the Vikings" or something along those lines that isn't an exact quote. There is absolutely no archaeological evidence to suggest the Dalriadans (aka Scots) invaded or colonised Western Scotland from Ireland. None whatsoever other than the spread of Goidelic languages to that particular area. However by that reasoning a native African who natively spoke English or French would be of English or French descent. It was no more than cultural conversion. It's incredibly common throughout history. Ancient Irish annals even stated that the Dalriadans had NO kin in Ireland. Which would be impossible surely if they had actually originated there. On a final note it was tribes from Scotland who first began to inhabit Ireland. So technically by that reasoning the Dalriadans would originally be of Scottish ancestry even if they had invaded from Ireland, which evidence would suggest they didn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.192.170 ( talk) 21:46, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm so glad you jumped to that conclusion. I'm actually a Scottish nationalist. I'm not anti-Irish in the slightest. I also don't support Rangers. I support Partick Thistle but I'm not really hugely interested in football at all..
"yet you come to an article about Irish people NOT SCOTTISH people."
Can't I read articles about other peoples ? I merely noticed that inaccurate statement referring to my own people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.192.170 ( talk) 21:52, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Are YOU a Celtic fan ? Born in Scotland to Scottish parents yet singing Irish songs and waving Irish flags at games ? And claiming Irish descent through the bizarre logic of ancestry ? Which is really no more than a modern day gimmick to promote Irish tourism around the world.. You do know that by the logic of ancestry we (human beings in any part of the world) would all be of African descent ? And that every Irish person would be of Scottish, English and/or Welsh ancestry ? Irritating when it's the other way around isn't it ? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.104.192.170 (
talk) 22:01, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
Anyway this isn't the place for agendas and such. It's a place of fact. The Dalriadans did not invade or colonise Western Scotland from Ireland. There's simply NO evidence to suggest they did. That is the reason I removed it. Because it's not fact. Do you think the Dalriadans were the only celtic peoples in Scotland or something ? The Picts and the Strathclydemen were both classified as celtic. As were the Dalriadans. I have no problem with that classification. Why would I ? I do have a problem with people stating the Dalriadans originated in Ireland when in fact evidence would strongly suggest they didn't.. I don't know how I can make that any clearer. Do you know much about celtic history ? I don't think you do otherwise you'd be aware that celtic culture actually originated in what is now Germany, Austria and several other Central European countries. It did not originate in Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.192.170 ( talk) 22:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
I'd have thought the various lists of people should be drastically cut. What is there is pure original research in that it is whatever the first person who came long stuck in, and now more are disallowed because they are too long. The lists should all refer to List of Irish people with just a few mentioned in secondary source as being outstanding over others as such, not just anybody who actually is a comedian and Irish for instance. Dmcq ( talk) 12:29, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |