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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Black Irish (old) was copied or moved into Irish people with this edit on 18 May 2013. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
It appears there has been quite the edit war regarding image formatting here, with several edit warriors blocked for a short while. I have full-protected this page for a few days so that after those blocks expire the participants can come here and discuss it like adults instead of edit warring. I hope it is now clear to all involved that edit warring is absolutely not tolerated and if it recurs after the protection expires blocks will be significantly harsher. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:21, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
@ Denisarona and @ Canterbury Tail:
We seem to have two separate groups of people to describe in this article. They are:
This article about the Irish people has a section called ==Origins and antecedents==. It seems to me that it's not really possible for the older group to have any of its origins and antecedents in the newer group that descended from the older group. The second group logically cannot be not either the origin or an antecedent of the first group.
Consequently, I don't think that the second group should be listed in the section called ==Origins and antecedents==. I've no objection to it being in the article, but it should not be in the section called ==Origins and antecedents==. Do you agree? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 00:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Hi wiki team - I'm concerned that the introduction, and the list of notable/famous writers, doesn’t reflect 1,500 years of writing and poetry in Irish (both pre- and post-Norman and/or Elizabethan conquest). In the grand scheme of things, a literary culture in English in Ireland has only existed for a few hundred years - which is actually a relatively small period of time, rich as its fruits have been! I wonder what's the best way to address this in the introduction of this particular entry.
Many thanks for your thoughts! IRideBikes25 ( talk) 18:30, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for chiming in, guys. As an Irish speaker myself, I was particularly concerned that the previous list of Irish writers basically only included writers in English from the past 150 years. I feel like my inclusions do a better job now but definitely don't encompass 1700 years of literature on the island. Let's keep trying.
For what it's worth, the mentions of Irish-language literature in the "Irish literature" entry are also not fully flushed out, so that's also worth investigating. IRideBikes25 ( talk) 20:18, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
@ 10mmsocket: Hi there. In answer to your question there are a number of issues with that reference. Firstly, as per WP:CITEHOW, you can't cite a whole document to make a specific claim; you have to say where in that particular document supports such a claim. Secondly, I happen to have found Ann C. Humphrey's public linkedin profile, and according to that this particular piece is an undergraduate's dissertation which goes against the guidance as given in WP:SCHOLARSHIP. To quote the guidance directly: "Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources...Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." So if it was a doctorate's thesis we could possibly use it, however it fails the guidance on the basis that it's an undergraduate's piece. Alssa1 ( talk) 13:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
There are an estimated 600k plus thousand foreign nationals in Ireland adding to the population and thousands more children of those foreign nationals with Irish citizenship. So if we're going by ethnic Irish as this article details, the real number is around 4 million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:6807:4600:F547:CF92:F007:16A4 ( talk) 15:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Irish people aren't just white and 'nation' doesn't suffice. It is widely accepted that modern Irish people are multi-racial, there are white, black, asian, south american and so forth. The entire article needs to be rewritten as it only focuses on the now outdated previously predominate long term white Irish group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:6807:4600:464:3E57:9414:9C60 ( talk) 09:42, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
We cannot consider People with an irish ancestor was actually being Irish, this is not how nation works, the Irish nation is compromised of people from Ireland and Northern Ireland. Those are the Irish people, and at most people with one parent being irish can be included, This article should reflect the reality of the Irish nation, not the fantasy of people with Irish ancestors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.221.62.126 ( talk) 15:29, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, what is this based on? Are we defining other people's identity for them now and attributing Irishness to people who don't want anything to do with such an identity now?
The article isn't about geography, huge percentages of Northern Ireland's population abjectly do NOT consider themselves Irish (and that's not just the British people of Northern Ireland, but does include them) and this is well known.
1.9 million Irish people in Northern Ireland is an absolute nonsense, and recklessly inflammatory, claim to make and you all damn well know it.
I'm not even going to get into the other claims (such as 14 million UK citizens being 'Irish' because they have a single recorded ancestor from Ireland somewhere in history), that claim about Northern Ireland is particularly egregious and it doesn't even need to be explained why.
Which leads me to believe it is intentional and motivated, and the fact that it still hasn't been removed further sheds intense scrutiny on and discredibility towards Wikipedia as a place for learning and objective fact. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.110.123.130 (
talk) 17:30, 30 April 2022 (UTC) < Block evading sock.
Mutt Lunker (
talk) 20:12, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
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I will correct a spelling mistake. 85.107.199.157 ( talk) 20:09, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
This Wikipedia entry, almost in its entirety, focuses solely on male leaders, male heritage, and the patriarchal domination that has plagued Ireland since Christianity was brought to the island. Shame on those of you who can't open your minds to anything except the most narrow male-centric perspective on the history of a glorious and beautiful people, half of whom were not and are not male. This entry is the quintessential stereotype of the old American-Irish grandfather who desperately clings to past memories of men running the world, rejecting any possible progress toward telling the true, complete and vibrant history of all the Irish people. DrKBrennan ( talk) 18:16, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
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80.6.48.34 ( talk) 17:31, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
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Add Culture of Ireland template
Part of a series on the |
Culture of Ireland |
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History |
People |
Mythology and folklore |
Religion |
Art |
American cupcake lover USA ( talk) 09:17, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
This issue's been brought up already but I'm going to raise it again. If you're going to define "Irish people" as an ethnic group in the lead of the article (which is more than just ancestry) then consistency would improve the quality. Thus if "Irish people" share a culture (customs, habits, politics etc) then it's demonstrably false on the facts to say there are 36 million 'Irish people' in America, 7 million in Australia etc. These are not 'Irish people' but are people who are part-Irish and part-something-else, and that part-something-else could be a dozen different ancestries. Almost none of these people are culturally Irish and very few of them have Irish nationality.
If this article were about Irish ancestry it'd be one thing, but there are people in the Republic of Ireland who may have other European ancestry or whose parents may be from Africa or the Middle East. If Leo Varadkar is an Irishman by virtue of citizenship and culture, what's the basis for claiming an American as Irish by virtue of blood? This sounds very Nazi to me. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 14:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Canterbury Tail: The reason why I said that putting both Scots and Ulster Scots as related ethnic groups in the infobox is redundant is because while Ulster Scots are a distinct subgroup of Scottish people, they are still Scots, who are already listed. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System ( talk) 05:20, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
Please would an interested editor assess the extensive material added at User:Grimhelm/Irish people, incorporate what is useful, then blank that page as WP:COPYARTICLE, and leave a note here when done? – Fayenatic London 15:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Reverted to original state where ancestry, history, and culture are all stated as qualities of Irish people.
That's not denying that people with history, culture and not ancestry aren't Irish. That's just saying that ancestry is a part of it even when culture isn't.
More than nearly any people, the Irish are in fact surprisingly genetically similar. 2/3 have the exact same Y DNA. This is an interesting scientific fact. Irish born outside Ireland can still be considered Irish. DenverCoder19 ( talk) 05:16, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
It is of course possible to have articles or sections about Irish people, or about Irish Americans, but an infobox does not have any room for fine points. It is currently saying that there are 36 million "Irish" people living in America and that is clearly using a very broad definition based on ancestry and/or sentiment. These would mainly be people who have never been in Ireland, and who are "Irish" in a secondary "hyphenated" way. Those numbers are clearly misleading as currently presented because, for one thing, it means the USA is the place where most Irish people live! Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Irish people article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 |
![]() | Irish people was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||||
![]() | Text and/or other creative content from this version of Black Irish (old) was copied or moved into Irish people with this edit on 18 May 2013. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
It appears there has been quite the edit war regarding image formatting here, with several edit warriors blocked for a short while. I have full-protected this page for a few days so that after those blocks expire the participants can come here and discuss it like adults instead of edit warring. I hope it is now clear to all involved that edit warring is absolutely not tolerated and if it recurs after the protection expires blocks will be significantly harsher. Beeblebrox ( talk) 19:21, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
@ Denisarona and @ Canterbury Tail:
We seem to have two separate groups of people to describe in this article. They are:
This article about the Irish people has a section called ==Origins and antecedents==. It seems to me that it's not really possible for the older group to have any of its origins and antecedents in the newer group that descended from the older group. The second group logically cannot be not either the origin or an antecedent of the first group.
Consequently, I don't think that the second group should be listed in the section called ==Origins and antecedents==. I've no objection to it being in the article, but it should not be in the section called ==Origins and antecedents==. Do you agree? WhatamIdoing ( talk) 00:48, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Hi wiki team - I'm concerned that the introduction, and the list of notable/famous writers, doesn’t reflect 1,500 years of writing and poetry in Irish (both pre- and post-Norman and/or Elizabethan conquest). In the grand scheme of things, a literary culture in English in Ireland has only existed for a few hundred years - which is actually a relatively small period of time, rich as its fruits have been! I wonder what's the best way to address this in the introduction of this particular entry.
Many thanks for your thoughts! IRideBikes25 ( talk) 18:30, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for chiming in, guys. As an Irish speaker myself, I was particularly concerned that the previous list of Irish writers basically only included writers in English from the past 150 years. I feel like my inclusions do a better job now but definitely don't encompass 1700 years of literature on the island. Let's keep trying.
For what it's worth, the mentions of Irish-language literature in the "Irish literature" entry are also not fully flushed out, so that's also worth investigating. IRideBikes25 ( talk) 20:18, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
@ 10mmsocket: Hi there. In answer to your question there are a number of issues with that reference. Firstly, as per WP:CITEHOW, you can't cite a whole document to make a specific claim; you have to say where in that particular document supports such a claim. Secondly, I happen to have found Ann C. Humphrey's public linkedin profile, and according to that this particular piece is an undergraduate's dissertation which goes against the guidance as given in WP:SCHOLARSHIP. To quote the guidance directly: "Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources...Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence." So if it was a doctorate's thesis we could possibly use it, however it fails the guidance on the basis that it's an undergraduate's piece. Alssa1 ( talk) 13:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
There are an estimated 600k plus thousand foreign nationals in Ireland adding to the population and thousands more children of those foreign nationals with Irish citizenship. So if we're going by ethnic Irish as this article details, the real number is around 4 million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:6807:4600:F547:CF92:F007:16A4 ( talk) 15:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
Irish people aren't just white and 'nation' doesn't suffice. It is widely accepted that modern Irish people are multi-racial, there are white, black, asian, south american and so forth. The entire article needs to be rewritten as it only focuses on the now outdated previously predominate long term white Irish group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:6807:4600:464:3E57:9414:9C60 ( talk) 09:42, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
We cannot consider People with an irish ancestor was actually being Irish, this is not how nation works, the Irish nation is compromised of people from Ireland and Northern Ireland. Those are the Irish people, and at most people with one parent being irish can be included, This article should reflect the reality of the Irish nation, not the fantasy of people with Irish ancestors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.221.62.126 ( talk) 15:29, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, what is this based on? Are we defining other people's identity for them now and attributing Irishness to people who don't want anything to do with such an identity now?
The article isn't about geography, huge percentages of Northern Ireland's population abjectly do NOT consider themselves Irish (and that's not just the British people of Northern Ireland, but does include them) and this is well known.
1.9 million Irish people in Northern Ireland is an absolute nonsense, and recklessly inflammatory, claim to make and you all damn well know it.
I'm not even going to get into the other claims (such as 14 million UK citizens being 'Irish' because they have a single recorded ancestor from Ireland somewhere in history), that claim about Northern Ireland is particularly egregious and it doesn't even need to be explained why.
Which leads me to believe it is intentional and motivated, and the fact that it still hasn't been removed further sheds intense scrutiny on and discredibility towards Wikipedia as a place for learning and objective fact. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.110.123.130 (
talk) 17:30, 30 April 2022 (UTC) < Block evading sock.
Mutt Lunker (
talk) 20:12, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I will correct a spelling mistake. 85.107.199.157 ( talk) 20:09, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
This Wikipedia entry, almost in its entirety, focuses solely on male leaders, male heritage, and the patriarchal domination that has plagued Ireland since Christianity was brought to the island. Shame on those of you who can't open your minds to anything except the most narrow male-centric perspective on the history of a glorious and beautiful people, half of whom were not and are not male. This entry is the quintessential stereotype of the old American-Irish grandfather who desperately clings to past memories of men running the world, rejecting any possible progress toward telling the true, complete and vibrant history of all the Irish people. DrKBrennan ( talk) 18:16, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
80.6.48.34 ( talk) 17:31, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add Culture of Ireland template
Part of a series on the |
Culture of Ireland |
---|
![]() |
History |
People |
Mythology and folklore |
Religion |
Art |
American cupcake lover USA ( talk) 09:17, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
This issue's been brought up already but I'm going to raise it again. If you're going to define "Irish people" as an ethnic group in the lead of the article (which is more than just ancestry) then consistency would improve the quality. Thus if "Irish people" share a culture (customs, habits, politics etc) then it's demonstrably false on the facts to say there are 36 million 'Irish people' in America, 7 million in Australia etc. These are not 'Irish people' but are people who are part-Irish and part-something-else, and that part-something-else could be a dozen different ancestries. Almost none of these people are culturally Irish and very few of them have Irish nationality.
If this article were about Irish ancestry it'd be one thing, but there are people in the Republic of Ireland who may have other European ancestry or whose parents may be from Africa or the Middle East. If Leo Varadkar is an Irishman by virtue of citizenship and culture, what's the basis for claiming an American as Irish by virtue of blood? This sounds very Nazi to me. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 14:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
@ Canterbury Tail: The reason why I said that putting both Scots and Ulster Scots as related ethnic groups in the infobox is redundant is because while Ulster Scots are a distinct subgroup of Scottish people, they are still Scots, who are already listed. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System ( talk) 05:20, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
Please would an interested editor assess the extensive material added at User:Grimhelm/Irish people, incorporate what is useful, then blank that page as WP:COPYARTICLE, and leave a note here when done? – Fayenatic London 15:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Reverted to original state where ancestry, history, and culture are all stated as qualities of Irish people.
That's not denying that people with history, culture and not ancestry aren't Irish. That's just saying that ancestry is a part of it even when culture isn't.
More than nearly any people, the Irish are in fact surprisingly genetically similar. 2/3 have the exact same Y DNA. This is an interesting scientific fact. Irish born outside Ireland can still be considered Irish. DenverCoder19 ( talk) 05:16, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
It is of course possible to have articles or sections about Irish people, or about Irish Americans, but an infobox does not have any room for fine points. It is currently saying that there are 36 million "Irish" people living in America and that is clearly using a very broad definition based on ancestry and/or sentiment. These would mainly be people who have never been in Ireland, and who are "Irish" in a secondary "hyphenated" way. Those numbers are clearly misleading as currently presented because, for one thing, it means the USA is the place where most Irish people live! Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 21:47, 11 March 2024 (UTC)