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Should the coin image be included? It's clearly a depiction of a red deer and not an Irish Elk, as a simple inspection of any decent picture of a red deer, and of the Irish Elk skeleton depicted elsewhere on the page, will reveal it to closely resemble a red deer, but to have an entirely different antler shape from the Irish Elk.
Of course, the red deer is one of the modern animals frequently called ‘Elk’, but even if the thing on the coin is both an Elk and Irish, it's not the animal this article is about, and that should probably be clarified in the caption.
I agree also, and the coin is no longer current; if we keep the coin that should be mentioned; but loose the coin, it's a red deer. What is the basis for 'commonly'? I googled ' "irish pound coin" deer': 194 hits. I googled ' "irish pound coin" Elk': 9 hits (6 of those in Wikipedia; mostly in Red deer and because 'elk' is used in US for similar deer). OK, that's far from scientific, but I deleted the coin anyway. The coin could perhaps be used in Red deer Dmccabe 19:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC).
I expanded the reference to its range from "Europe" to "Eurasia," as the deer lived as far east as China. I just read this in Stephen J. Gould's essay of the topic, in "Ever Since Darwin." Zachkchk 12:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
There are several scientific papers about late survival in Manx Island and Urals, and there are suggestions (maybe more cryptozoology) of historical survival in Austria (schelk in Sigfrid lore) and Ukraine (scythian artifacts?)
Should Megaceros redirect here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.51.166.124 ( talk • contribs) 03:54, 17 April 2006.
"Some have suggested hunting by man is a contributing factor in the demise of Megaloceros giganteus, but most paleontologists now believe that the last animal died off about 10,600 years ago, over a millennium before the first humans arrived."
Where on Earth was it that there were still no humans as recently as 7600 BC? This must be a mistake. Haplolology 01:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
There is still a problem. These animals ranged accross Eurasia and went globally extinct. When humans got to Ireland seems to me to be of very little importance unless there is evidence to suggest that they persisted longer in Ireland. So many were found in Ireland because of our long tradition of hand digging peat from bogs for fuel. Perhaps rephrase to simply say there seems to be little evidence to sugggest that humans caused the demise of the deer? And finally, may I suggest that Recent research has determined.... should not be stated that way without a link to the appropriate citation for that recent research. Dmccabe 02:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Should 'Shelk' redirect here? CarrerCrytharis 23:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone think it's strange that "most paleontologists now believe that the last animal died off about 10,600 years ago," (paragraph 4) when "The latest known remains of the Irish elk have been carbon dated to about 5700 BC" (paragraph 2)? That's a lot of paleontologists without hand-calculators, I'm afraid:(. Ungtss 23:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
"Schelch" is a name of animal from the Ring of Nibelungs. It is believed to be some kind of big deer, and this coined hypothesis that Giant Deer survived in Europe until modern times.
Kurten likely knew this hypothesis and picked name from it.
Re germanic legend (Ring of Nibelungs) - Note that various celtic irish legends also feature giant deer. That could be readily explained by early Irish people (a) just exaggerating or (b) finding giant deer antlers and skeletons in the bogs like "dragon bones" (as the passage below suggests), but there's also (c) the giant deer survived in their island isolation, until the ancient Irish finally showed up and promptly wiped them out. (b) and (c) aren't mutually exclusive, and (c) might even lead to some (b) - if you're an ancient Irish guy with too many antlers accumulating from your kills, you're just gonna throw them in the nearest bog!
See e.g. "The High Deeds of Finn and other Bardic Romances of Ancient Ireland, by T. W. Rolleston" http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14749/14749-h/14749-h.htm
""" There were then vast forests in Ireland, which are all gone now, and there were also, as there still are, many great and beautiful lakes and rivers, swarming with fish and water-fowl. In the forests and on the mountain sides roamed the wild boar and the wolf, and great herds of deer, some of giant size, whose enormous antlers are sometimes found when bogs are being drained. The Fianna chased these and the wolves with great dogs, whose courage and strength and beauty were famous throughout Europe, and which they prized and loved above all things. To the present day in Ireland there still remain some of this breed of Irish hounds, but the giant deer and the wolf are gone, and the Fianna of Erinn live only in the ancient books that were written of them, and in the tales that are still told of them in the winter evenings by the Irish peasant's fireside """
The german name of the moose is "Elch" and the word "Schelch" was most probably an old word for the moose, which was once also common in Germany.
Okay so the last one died out 5000 years ago, and also 10000 years ago. Hmmm... Indigenius 02:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe for now we just change it to between 5 and 10 thousand years ago, till its sorted. Enlil Ninlil 02:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
=
I think we should make a separate article for the genus Megaloceros, as, after all, there were several species other than M. giganteus.-- Mr Fink 03:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this is a case where lumping is justified. Is there enough known about any one species that is distinct from the general knowledge of the genus as a whole that might justify a seperate page? My feeling is not. ANy thoughts? Dmccabe
I certainly see the emphasis on the one species and agree with that point. But the article is short, and little of the info is at the generic level. Is it worth splitting to form a Megaloceros stub? Dmccabe 01:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
With that I can agree 100%. I'll add one more thought: I suspect that most (certainly not all) enclycopedia users searching on this topic will at least start by searching for the Irish Elk before they learn the Latin name. I think a more expansive article under the current title would help those users more than would an article on Megaloceros. Dmccabe
Should it be noted that its closest relative is the fallow deer? The Great White Hunter 01:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC) --Mike_Winters
See here [1] for another, more plausible explanation of its extinction. The whole 'it must be the antlers' theory is nonsense of course, as (stated also by the linked article) changes to vegetation were gradual enough to allow the elk to evolve smaller antlers. Antler size differs so much throughout deer populations, within a few generations the effect would be noticeable. Jalwikip ( talk) 12:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article has a cognitive prejudice against orthogenesis and a desire to promote any other explanation -- as if orthogenesis has been disproven and the other hypotheses have been proven. Whatever happened to NPOV? 76.105.244.90 ( talk) 18:03, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
As noted in the opening paragraph, the vernaular name "Irish Elk" is no longer in wide usage due to the widespread range of the species and not belonging to the genus Cervus. The name giant elk is noted as being used now, and the binomial, Megaloceros giganteus is the most common name in scientific lit. Should this article be moved to either giant elk or preferably, following fauna naming conventions, Megaloceros giganteus as there are at least to vernacular names in use?-- Kevmin ( talk) 15:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) Which of the thirteen Mammuthus species are you reffering too? THe scientific term is almost always the first term to be given an organism an except in very rare cases there is only one valid scientific name at a time. Both "vernacular" names applied to M. giganteus are ambiguous at best for the reasons explained in the article. the renaming has nothing to do with volume of named but accuracy and neither of the "vernacular" names is accurate. "The name Giant Elk is now used. Let's move to Megaloceros Giganteus" is very clearly not what i claimed in my opening post of this section! I made he suggestion of moving to either "giant elk" or Megaloceros giganteus with my reasoning explained. Per fauna guidelines M. giganteus is still the most appropriate name for the article. You yourself pointed out that a number of other articles which use Greek or Latin based named; such as Rhinoceros, elephant, Giraffe, etc. M. giganteus is just a grouping of letters to designate a human concept that is no harder to understand or remember than any other name. Oh and by far he vast majority of organism articles in wikipedia are at the scientific name and not a "vernacular" name. Making broad and condescending generalizations about taxonomic names does not help you arguments.-- Kevmin ( talk) 15:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Hello, can someone please include a link to this page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaloceros It's about the genus Megaloceros but there is no German page about the species Irish Elk so I think a link is appropriate. 188.23.240.49 ( talk) 13:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I reached this article by searching the Trivia section about " The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug" on imdb.com:
A pair of Megaloceras (Irish elk) antlers flanks the Elf king's throne.
Would it be appropriate to add a "In popular media" section to include this information? It should also be mentioned that Thranduil is shown as riding an animal that looks a great deal like an Irish Elk in a scene which I believe was in the previous film.
John Saunders ( talk) 06:25, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
An image with a comparison with one of these beasts to an average man would be helpful. The current images, while good, don't give a good sense of scale. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 16:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Under section 1.1 Evolution: "The Irish Elk evolved throughout the last few million years during the Glacial Periods, specifically the Pleistocene Epoch. Many of these deer were found to be unable to survive many of these sub-arctic conditions. Once established, the elk spread..."
Which deer were unable to survive sub-arctic conditions? Is this talking about other species of smaller deer? Many, but not all? Found by whom? The "many" in "many of these sub-arctic conditions" seems unnecessary and awkward. I'm having trouble figuring out what that sentence is trying to convey. -- Rationalist Unikitty ( talk) 22:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
The phrasing of the section regarding the closest living relatives of Megaloceros giganteus needs quite a bit of editing -
Early phylogenetic analyses supported the idea of a sister-group relationship between fallow deer (Dama dama) and the Irish Elk.[5][6] However, newer morphological studies prove that the Irish elk is more closely related to its modern regional counterparts of the Red Deer (Cervus elaphus).[7] For this reason, the name "Giant Deer" is used in some publications.[8][9][10][11][12]
Oddly though, the paper claiming that Megaloceros giganteus is more closely related to the Red Deer than to the Fallow Deer is from 2005, and actually predates the other 2 references that show a close relationship between Fallow Deer and Megaloceros giganteus; Kuehn et al. (2005) was published in September 2005, versus Lister et al. (December 2005) and van der Made & Tong (March 2008). Saying that Kuehn et al. (2005) is a "newer" study is inaccurate. Also, Kuehn et al. (2005) looked at mitochondrial DNA, not morphology, whereas van der Made & Tong (2008) didn't say anything about establishing a sister-group relationship between Megaloceros and Dama. Maybe Hughes et al. (2006) can be used as another reference for evidence of Fallow Deer being the sister group to Megaloceros. Finally, the other common name of Giant Deer doesn't have anything to do with suggestions of a close relationship between the Red Deer and Megaloceros, does it? I thought it was just being more widely adopted as an alternative to Irish Elk. Hai ren ( talk) 18:11, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
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If anyone can take a photo of an Irish elk skeleton without background clutter, it would be much appreciated! Chiswick Chap ( talk) 10:40, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
This has been brought up before, but it is purely an argument from history/tradition for this article to be "elk" rather than "deer". This animal is not an elk, and the use of this term as the article title does nothing expect perpetuate this misconception. The fact that it is referred to incorrectly as an elk throughout the body of the article just compounds this error. Is it not time this article reflected modern understanding of the species? Giant deer is a scientifically accurate description. Smirkybec ( talk) 15:06, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
These parts seem confusing and like they kind of contradict each other:
"The size of Irish elk antlers is distinctive. Scientists have proposed multiple theories regarding the evolution of these antlers. One theory is that their antlers, under constant and strong sexual selection, increased in size because males were using them in combat for access to females. Thus, they are thought to have eventually become so unwieldy that the Irish elk could not carry on the normal business of life, so became extinct. This theory was not tested rigorously until Stephen Jay Gould's important 1974 essay on Megaloceros.
Gould demonstrated that for deer in general, species with a larger body size have antlers that are more than proportionately larger, a consequence of allometry, or differential growth rate of body size and antler size during development. Irish elk had antlers of the appropriate size in correlation to their massive bodies."
And then:
"However, in the 1930s, orthogenesis was disputed by Darwinians led by Julian Huxley, who noted that antler size was relative to body size. Because the Irish elk was a large organism compared to its smaller relatives such as deer, there was an allometric relationship between the antlers and body size. This theory, too, was countered by Stephen Jay Gould, as he deemed the allometry theory to be very similar to the orthogenesis theory."
First, "this theory" at first seems be talking about Huxley's theory, where it is actually saying that Gould was ALSO controverting the theory. It also makes it sound like this was taking place simulteously, not three decades later, as the first paragraph says. But mostly the first quote seems to be saying that Gould demonstrated that it WASN'T sexual selection, but "alleometry" that explained the antlers. And it suggests that Gould was the originator of this ideas. The next quote seems to be saying that Gould thought Huxley's hypothesis about allemetry was wrong, too close to orthogenesis, and that there was some other reason for the antlers, such as sexual selection.
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Should the coin image be included? It's clearly a depiction of a red deer and not an Irish Elk, as a simple inspection of any decent picture of a red deer, and of the Irish Elk skeleton depicted elsewhere on the page, will reveal it to closely resemble a red deer, but to have an entirely different antler shape from the Irish Elk.
Of course, the red deer is one of the modern animals frequently called ‘Elk’, but even if the thing on the coin is both an Elk and Irish, it's not the animal this article is about, and that should probably be clarified in the caption.
I agree also, and the coin is no longer current; if we keep the coin that should be mentioned; but loose the coin, it's a red deer. What is the basis for 'commonly'? I googled ' "irish pound coin" deer': 194 hits. I googled ' "irish pound coin" Elk': 9 hits (6 of those in Wikipedia; mostly in Red deer and because 'elk' is used in US for similar deer). OK, that's far from scientific, but I deleted the coin anyway. The coin could perhaps be used in Red deer Dmccabe 19:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC).
I expanded the reference to its range from "Europe" to "Eurasia," as the deer lived as far east as China. I just read this in Stephen J. Gould's essay of the topic, in "Ever Since Darwin." Zachkchk 12:49, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
There are several scientific papers about late survival in Manx Island and Urals, and there are suggestions (maybe more cryptozoology) of historical survival in Austria (schelk in Sigfrid lore) and Ukraine (scythian artifacts?)
Should Megaceros redirect here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.51.166.124 ( talk • contribs) 03:54, 17 April 2006.
"Some have suggested hunting by man is a contributing factor in the demise of Megaloceros giganteus, but most paleontologists now believe that the last animal died off about 10,600 years ago, over a millennium before the first humans arrived."
Where on Earth was it that there were still no humans as recently as 7600 BC? This must be a mistake. Haplolology 01:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
There is still a problem. These animals ranged accross Eurasia and went globally extinct. When humans got to Ireland seems to me to be of very little importance unless there is evidence to suggest that they persisted longer in Ireland. So many were found in Ireland because of our long tradition of hand digging peat from bogs for fuel. Perhaps rephrase to simply say there seems to be little evidence to sugggest that humans caused the demise of the deer? And finally, may I suggest that Recent research has determined.... should not be stated that way without a link to the appropriate citation for that recent research. Dmccabe 02:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Should 'Shelk' redirect here? CarrerCrytharis 23:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone think it's strange that "most paleontologists now believe that the last animal died off about 10,600 years ago," (paragraph 4) when "The latest known remains of the Irish elk have been carbon dated to about 5700 BC" (paragraph 2)? That's a lot of paleontologists without hand-calculators, I'm afraid:(. Ungtss 23:24, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
"Schelch" is a name of animal from the Ring of Nibelungs. It is believed to be some kind of big deer, and this coined hypothesis that Giant Deer survived in Europe until modern times.
Kurten likely knew this hypothesis and picked name from it.
Re germanic legend (Ring of Nibelungs) - Note that various celtic irish legends also feature giant deer. That could be readily explained by early Irish people (a) just exaggerating or (b) finding giant deer antlers and skeletons in the bogs like "dragon bones" (as the passage below suggests), but there's also (c) the giant deer survived in their island isolation, until the ancient Irish finally showed up and promptly wiped them out. (b) and (c) aren't mutually exclusive, and (c) might even lead to some (b) - if you're an ancient Irish guy with too many antlers accumulating from your kills, you're just gonna throw them in the nearest bog!
See e.g. "The High Deeds of Finn and other Bardic Romances of Ancient Ireland, by T. W. Rolleston" http://www.gutenberg.org/files/14749/14749-h/14749-h.htm
""" There were then vast forests in Ireland, which are all gone now, and there were also, as there still are, many great and beautiful lakes and rivers, swarming with fish and water-fowl. In the forests and on the mountain sides roamed the wild boar and the wolf, and great herds of deer, some of giant size, whose enormous antlers are sometimes found when bogs are being drained. The Fianna chased these and the wolves with great dogs, whose courage and strength and beauty were famous throughout Europe, and which they prized and loved above all things. To the present day in Ireland there still remain some of this breed of Irish hounds, but the giant deer and the wolf are gone, and the Fianna of Erinn live only in the ancient books that were written of them, and in the tales that are still told of them in the winter evenings by the Irish peasant's fireside """
The german name of the moose is "Elch" and the word "Schelch" was most probably an old word for the moose, which was once also common in Germany.
Okay so the last one died out 5000 years ago, and also 10000 years ago. Hmmm... Indigenius 02:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe for now we just change it to between 5 and 10 thousand years ago, till its sorted. Enlil Ninlil 02:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
=
I think we should make a separate article for the genus Megaloceros, as, after all, there were several species other than M. giganteus.-- Mr Fink 03:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this is a case where lumping is justified. Is there enough known about any one species that is distinct from the general knowledge of the genus as a whole that might justify a seperate page? My feeling is not. ANy thoughts? Dmccabe
I certainly see the emphasis on the one species and agree with that point. But the article is short, and little of the info is at the generic level. Is it worth splitting to form a Megaloceros stub? Dmccabe 01:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
With that I can agree 100%. I'll add one more thought: I suspect that most (certainly not all) enclycopedia users searching on this topic will at least start by searching for the Irish Elk before they learn the Latin name. I think a more expansive article under the current title would help those users more than would an article on Megaloceros. Dmccabe
Should it be noted that its closest relative is the fallow deer? The Great White Hunter 01:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC) --Mike_Winters
See here [1] for another, more plausible explanation of its extinction. The whole 'it must be the antlers' theory is nonsense of course, as (stated also by the linked article) changes to vegetation were gradual enough to allow the elk to evolve smaller antlers. Antler size differs so much throughout deer populations, within a few generations the effect would be noticeable. Jalwikip ( talk) 12:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that this article has a cognitive prejudice against orthogenesis and a desire to promote any other explanation -- as if orthogenesis has been disproven and the other hypotheses have been proven. Whatever happened to NPOV? 76.105.244.90 ( talk) 18:03, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
As noted in the opening paragraph, the vernaular name "Irish Elk" is no longer in wide usage due to the widespread range of the species and not belonging to the genus Cervus. The name giant elk is noted as being used now, and the binomial, Megaloceros giganteus is the most common name in scientific lit. Should this article be moved to either giant elk or preferably, following fauna naming conventions, Megaloceros giganteus as there are at least to vernacular names in use?-- Kevmin ( talk) 15:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) Which of the thirteen Mammuthus species are you reffering too? THe scientific term is almost always the first term to be given an organism an except in very rare cases there is only one valid scientific name at a time. Both "vernacular" names applied to M. giganteus are ambiguous at best for the reasons explained in the article. the renaming has nothing to do with volume of named but accuracy and neither of the "vernacular" names is accurate. "The name Giant Elk is now used. Let's move to Megaloceros Giganteus" is very clearly not what i claimed in my opening post of this section! I made he suggestion of moving to either "giant elk" or Megaloceros giganteus with my reasoning explained. Per fauna guidelines M. giganteus is still the most appropriate name for the article. You yourself pointed out that a number of other articles which use Greek or Latin based named; such as Rhinoceros, elephant, Giraffe, etc. M. giganteus is just a grouping of letters to designate a human concept that is no harder to understand or remember than any other name. Oh and by far he vast majority of organism articles in wikipedia are at the scientific name and not a "vernacular" name. Making broad and condescending generalizations about taxonomic names does not help you arguments.-- Kevmin ( talk) 15:24, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Hello, can someone please include a link to this page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaloceros It's about the genus Megaloceros but there is no German page about the species Irish Elk so I think a link is appropriate. 188.23.240.49 ( talk) 13:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I reached this article by searching the Trivia section about " The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug" on imdb.com:
A pair of Megaloceras (Irish elk) antlers flanks the Elf king's throne.
Would it be appropriate to add a "In popular media" section to include this information? It should also be mentioned that Thranduil is shown as riding an animal that looks a great deal like an Irish Elk in a scene which I believe was in the previous film.
John Saunders ( talk) 06:25, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
An image with a comparison with one of these beasts to an average man would be helpful. The current images, while good, don't give a good sense of scale. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 16:29, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Under section 1.1 Evolution: "The Irish Elk evolved throughout the last few million years during the Glacial Periods, specifically the Pleistocene Epoch. Many of these deer were found to be unable to survive many of these sub-arctic conditions. Once established, the elk spread..."
Which deer were unable to survive sub-arctic conditions? Is this talking about other species of smaller deer? Many, but not all? Found by whom? The "many" in "many of these sub-arctic conditions" seems unnecessary and awkward. I'm having trouble figuring out what that sentence is trying to convey. -- Rationalist Unikitty ( talk) 22:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
The phrasing of the section regarding the closest living relatives of Megaloceros giganteus needs quite a bit of editing -
Early phylogenetic analyses supported the idea of a sister-group relationship between fallow deer (Dama dama) and the Irish Elk.[5][6] However, newer morphological studies prove that the Irish elk is more closely related to its modern regional counterparts of the Red Deer (Cervus elaphus).[7] For this reason, the name "Giant Deer" is used in some publications.[8][9][10][11][12]
Oddly though, the paper claiming that Megaloceros giganteus is more closely related to the Red Deer than to the Fallow Deer is from 2005, and actually predates the other 2 references that show a close relationship between Fallow Deer and Megaloceros giganteus; Kuehn et al. (2005) was published in September 2005, versus Lister et al. (December 2005) and van der Made & Tong (March 2008). Saying that Kuehn et al. (2005) is a "newer" study is inaccurate. Also, Kuehn et al. (2005) looked at mitochondrial DNA, not morphology, whereas van der Made & Tong (2008) didn't say anything about establishing a sister-group relationship between Megaloceros and Dama. Maybe Hughes et al. (2006) can be used as another reference for evidence of Fallow Deer being the sister group to Megaloceros. Finally, the other common name of Giant Deer doesn't have anything to do with suggestions of a close relationship between the Red Deer and Megaloceros, does it? I thought it was just being more widely adopted as an alternative to Irish Elk. Hai ren ( talk) 18:11, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 16:41, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 20:02, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
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If anyone can take a photo of an Irish elk skeleton without background clutter, it would be much appreciated! Chiswick Chap ( talk) 10:40, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
This has been brought up before, but it is purely an argument from history/tradition for this article to be "elk" rather than "deer". This animal is not an elk, and the use of this term as the article title does nothing expect perpetuate this misconception. The fact that it is referred to incorrectly as an elk throughout the body of the article just compounds this error. Is it not time this article reflected modern understanding of the species? Giant deer is a scientifically accurate description. Smirkybec ( talk) 15:06, 8 September 2018 (UTC)
These parts seem confusing and like they kind of contradict each other:
"The size of Irish elk antlers is distinctive. Scientists have proposed multiple theories regarding the evolution of these antlers. One theory is that their antlers, under constant and strong sexual selection, increased in size because males were using them in combat for access to females. Thus, they are thought to have eventually become so unwieldy that the Irish elk could not carry on the normal business of life, so became extinct. This theory was not tested rigorously until Stephen Jay Gould's important 1974 essay on Megaloceros.
Gould demonstrated that for deer in general, species with a larger body size have antlers that are more than proportionately larger, a consequence of allometry, or differential growth rate of body size and antler size during development. Irish elk had antlers of the appropriate size in correlation to their massive bodies."
And then:
"However, in the 1930s, orthogenesis was disputed by Darwinians led by Julian Huxley, who noted that antler size was relative to body size. Because the Irish elk was a large organism compared to its smaller relatives such as deer, there was an allometric relationship between the antlers and body size. This theory, too, was countered by Stephen Jay Gould, as he deemed the allometry theory to be very similar to the orthogenesis theory."
First, "this theory" at first seems be talking about Huxley's theory, where it is actually saying that Gould was ALSO controverting the theory. It also makes it sound like this was taking place simulteously, not three decades later, as the first paragraph says. But mostly the first quote seems to be saying that Gould demonstrated that it WASN'T sexual selection, but "alleometry" that explained the antlers. And it suggests that Gould was the originator of this ideas. The next quote seems to be saying that Gould thought Huxley's hypothesis about allemetry was wrong, too close to orthogenesis, and that there was some other reason for the antlers, such as sexual selection.