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![]() | On 6 March 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Iraqi conflict (2003–present) to Iraqi conflict. The result of the discussion was moved. |
If this article is to include the entire scope of the Iraq conflict, it should have its start date at the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990. There has in fact been continuous combat in Iraq since the Coalition counter attack during the Persian Gulf War, with the No-fly zones conflict, Shia uprising, and Kurdish uprising in between the Persian gulf war and the Iraq War. There were constant attacks by Coalition air forces against Iraqi air defense and radar positions throughout the period between the Persian Gulf War and the Iraq War, with occasional larged bombing operations in between such as Desert Strike and Desert Fox. XavierGreen ( talk) 02:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
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Hello, As you may have seen on the article, a vast amount of the article's sections are blank. I did do some work on a few articles, but I would be glad if I had support on completing this article. Thanks, User:ST15RMwikipedia 20:46, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
The map should be replaced. There is no longer an active war between the two remaining groups which hold territory that can be marked on a map. Maps as main images are only useful if they indicate the changing territorial possessions and/or the locations of conflict. -- LukeSurl t c 20:59, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the article to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 01:00, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
The article's title is misleading. The subject of this article are various forms of conflict in Iraq from 2003-present. It's a reasonable umbrella article to have, but it is being misrepresented as a single, ongoing conflict that is named "the Iraq conflict". That is not the case, and is simply a result of editorializing on our end. I know that's not the intent, but that's how it comes across. So, it should really be renamed from "Iraq conflict" to "Conflict in Iraq" to accurately reflect the subject.
Swarm
{talk} 03:27, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Iraq conflict (2003–present) → Conflict in Iraq (2003–present) – Per Swarm. Charles Essie ( talk) 20:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 21:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
It seems that there is disagreement about the death toll and what the cited source says. The source is confusing because it also includes figures for Afghanistan and Pakistan. I was tripped up by this at first and ended up reverting some correct edits. But if you scroll to the bottom of the page, it lists a total figure of 267,792 — 295,170 deaths specifically for Iraq. There doesn't seem to be any legitimate interpretation of this article to support some of the figures in the million-plus range that have been thrown out here. Tdc42 ( talk) 21:10, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
I have changed the ref for the figure to link directly to the Brown University Costs of War Project report that the Business Insider article was based on. Hopefully this will decrease the confusion. Tdc42 ( talk) 23:14, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
We should not just use one specific source. We should use different estimates too IbrahimWeed ( talk) 12:51, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Iraq_War&diff=1020977252&oldid=1020976991#Damaged_Historic_Institutions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.195.140.13 ( talk) 05:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
I've been edit warring with an IP user, who has since set up an account under the name "IhateCharles" (very mature), who is insisting that the conflict ended in December 2017 simply because Donald Trump said so. He's even insisting there's been no terrorist attacks in Iraq by ISIL since then! Charles Essie ( talk) 03:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. I am very sympathetic to the idea that there is always going to be some amount of conflict. Maybe a completely new title, something like Conflict in Iraq after 2003, might be appropriate. But the proposed title did not gain a consensus. ( non-admin closure) Red Slash 17:30, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Iraqi conflict (2003–present) → Iraqi conflict (2003–2017) – Is the “conflict” really still ongoing? 100k-1m died in the war from 2003-2011 and many battles and territorial offensives occurred, 15k died from the insurgency from 2011 until 2013 which involved clashes, attempts at land grabs, 150k+ died in the renewed territorial war from 2013 until 2017 which also involved battles and large scale offensives, but the insurgency after 2017 isn’t large scale enough to be considered a “conflict”, very limited attacks occur near kirkuk and in the western desert, and extremely rare attacks occurs in anywhere else such as the january 2018 and january 2021 baghdad bombings. No attempts of land grab, no ISIS territorial control of areas, very limited attacks, i think it’s safe to say the “conflict” has ended. Even some sources refer to post-2017 insurgency as “Post war”. And some articles refer to a “New era of Iraq after ISIL’s territorial defeat” Ridax2020 ( talk) 13:58, 29 January 2021 (UTC)—Relisting. User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 21:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Sources that refer to after 2017 as post-war and as the end of all-out conflict spread throughout all parts of the country: https://www.arabnews.com/node/1793681/amp https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1988615/from-foe-to-friend-how-iran-transformed-post-war-iraq-ties https://www.tvo.org/video/rebuilding-post-war-iraq https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/in-pictures-iraq-s-struggle-with-environmental-challenges-40336 https://www.unenvironment.org/news-and-stories/story/crude-impact-cleaning-ravages-war-iraq https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/24/the-militias-are-not-allowing-us-back-sunnis-languish-in-camps-years-after-recapture-of-mosul Ridax2020 ( talk) 14:07, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
I mean the war has ended their are little to no attacks the last attack was a year ago in Baghdad 2.49.35.137 ( talk) 11:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move to Iraqi conflict as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
This sidesteps the issue of what time period the article should cover; editors interested in considering this further are encouraged to open an RfC. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 15:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Iraqi conflict (2003–present) → Iraqi conflict (2003–2017) – Starting with article-content, this article does not reference any conflict events happening after 2017 so the title is simply inaccurate. The most recent US combat-deployment in Iraq ended in 2021 with major combat operations having ended in 2017. Whilst there are occasional terrorist attacks in Iraq, these are not nation-wide and are instead limited to certain areas, meaning they cannot be part of a whole-country "Iraqi conflict". Since the article lacks any coverage of events after 2017, it also lacks any substantiation that reliable sources treat the present very-low-level insurgency as part of the same conflict that began in 2003. Many reliable sources instead state that the war that began in 2003 essentially ended either in 2017 or before that, these include:
In contrast there is no coverage in reliable sources that I could find stating the opposite - that the period of conflict that began in 2003 is still ongoing. There's also consistency needed with our
War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) page, where we took the US exit from Afghanistan as the end of the war, despite there still being more than one ongoing insurgency in Afghanistan (
including an insurgency by ISIS!). Treating the present low-level insurgency as part of the same period of conflict that began in 2003 is therefore
original research, which is not allowed. Even from a point of view of usefulness, there is no need for a page that continues the coverage beyond 2017 since we already have a list-page for
conflicts in Iraq, a
general history page for Iraq post-2011 (which treats the war with ISIS as having ended in 2017).
Realistically speaking, there is likely to be violence in Iraq for some time, but that does not mean that we should treat every minor act of whatever grouping as an extension of the same conflict that began with a US-led coalition's war against Saddam Hussein without any sources that say so. We do not treat the attacks of the Real IRA as an extension of The Troubles. We do not treat the current ISIS insurgency in Afghanistan as part of the same conflict that began in 2001. We do not treat the Second World War in Europe as not having ended until the last of the insurgents in Eastern Europe were hunted down. We do not treat the Pacific War as not having ended until the surrender of Teruo Nakamura or Hiroo Onoda, despite their guerrilla attacks. FOARP ( talk) 15:11, 6 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 16:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
"Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence"). The 2006 remarks at a conference by David J. Kilkullen are better as a source per se but again the date of the remarks makes it not demonstrative of what is happening in 2023.
“phase of this conflict”, but I have to ask “what conflict?”. The article title specifies that this is a conflict that began in 2003 so this is not just any conflict - it is a specific one starting on that date. For that conflict to still be going on now you need a source saying that that the conflict that started in 2003 is still going on now. Otherwise this is simply a WP:V fail.
Further events after the ISIS conflict should not be added to this article unless a reliable source can be found saying that they are part of the same series of events that began in 2003. US forces being attacked by Iran/Iran-backed militias in Iraq in 2023 is not obviously part of the same conflict that began in 2003 and saying it is without a source is simply original research. The article for 2023 attacks on U.S. bases in Iraq and Syria states that they are part of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, it does not say they are part of any conflict that began in 2003. As discussed in detail last year, no source says the conflict that began in 2003 is still ongoing. This is like saying that the Korean war is part of WW2. FOARP ( talk) 13:38, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Iraqi conflict article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS The article Iraqi conflict, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.
|
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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A graph should have been displayed here but
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![]() | On 6 March 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Iraqi conflict (2003–present) to Iraqi conflict. The result of the discussion was moved. |
If this article is to include the entire scope of the Iraq conflict, it should have its start date at the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990. There has in fact been continuous combat in Iraq since the Coalition counter attack during the Persian Gulf War, with the No-fly zones conflict, Shia uprising, and Kurdish uprising in between the Persian gulf war and the Iraq War. There were constant attacks by Coalition air forces against Iraqi air defense and radar positions throughout the period between the Persian Gulf War and the Iraq War, with occasional larged bombing operations in between such as Desert Strike and Desert Fox. XavierGreen ( talk) 02:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Iraq conflict (2003–present). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:04, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello, As you may have seen on the article, a vast amount of the article's sections are blank. I did do some work on a few articles, but I would be glad if I had support on completing this article. Thanks, User:ST15RMwikipedia 20:46, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
The map should be replaced. There is no longer an active war between the two remaining groups which hold territory that can be marked on a map. Maps as main images are only useful if they indicate the changing territorial possessions and/or the locations of conflict. -- LukeSurl t c 20:59, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the article to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 01:00, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
The article's title is misleading. The subject of this article are various forms of conflict in Iraq from 2003-present. It's a reasonable umbrella article to have, but it is being misrepresented as a single, ongoing conflict that is named "the Iraq conflict". That is not the case, and is simply a result of editorializing on our end. I know that's not the intent, but that's how it comes across. So, it should really be renamed from "Iraq conflict" to "Conflict in Iraq" to accurately reflect the subject.
Swarm
{talk} 03:27, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Iraq conflict (2003–present) → Conflict in Iraq (2003–present) – Per Swarm. Charles Essie ( talk) 20:48, 7 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me | my contributions 21:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
It seems that there is disagreement about the death toll and what the cited source says. The source is confusing because it also includes figures for Afghanistan and Pakistan. I was tripped up by this at first and ended up reverting some correct edits. But if you scroll to the bottom of the page, it lists a total figure of 267,792 — 295,170 deaths specifically for Iraq. There doesn't seem to be any legitimate interpretation of this article to support some of the figures in the million-plus range that have been thrown out here. Tdc42 ( talk) 21:10, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
I have changed the ref for the figure to link directly to the Brown University Costs of War Project report that the Business Insider article was based on. Hopefully this will decrease the confusion. Tdc42 ( talk) 23:14, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
We should not just use one specific source. We should use different estimates too IbrahimWeed ( talk) 12:51, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Iraq_War&diff=1020977252&oldid=1020976991#Damaged_Historic_Institutions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.195.140.13 ( talk) 05:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
I've been edit warring with an IP user, who has since set up an account under the name "IhateCharles" (very mature), who is insisting that the conflict ended in December 2017 simply because Donald Trump said so. He's even insisting there's been no terrorist attacks in Iraq by ISIL since then! Charles Essie ( talk) 03:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. I am very sympathetic to the idea that there is always going to be some amount of conflict. Maybe a completely new title, something like Conflict in Iraq after 2003, might be appropriate. But the proposed title did not gain a consensus. ( non-admin closure) Red Slash 17:30, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
Iraqi conflict (2003–present) → Iraqi conflict (2003–2017) – Is the “conflict” really still ongoing? 100k-1m died in the war from 2003-2011 and many battles and territorial offensives occurred, 15k died from the insurgency from 2011 until 2013 which involved clashes, attempts at land grabs, 150k+ died in the renewed territorial war from 2013 until 2017 which also involved battles and large scale offensives, but the insurgency after 2017 isn’t large scale enough to be considered a “conflict”, very limited attacks occur near kirkuk and in the western desert, and extremely rare attacks occurs in anywhere else such as the january 2018 and january 2021 baghdad bombings. No attempts of land grab, no ISIS territorial control of areas, very limited attacks, i think it’s safe to say the “conflict” has ended. Even some sources refer to post-2017 insurgency as “Post war”. And some articles refer to a “New era of Iraq after ISIL’s territorial defeat” Ridax2020 ( talk) 13:58, 29 January 2021 (UTC)—Relisting. User:Ceyockey ( talk to me) 21:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Sources that refer to after 2017 as post-war and as the end of all-out conflict spread throughout all parts of the country: https://www.arabnews.com/node/1793681/amp https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1988615/from-foe-to-friend-how-iran-transformed-post-war-iraq-ties https://www.tvo.org/video/rebuilding-post-war-iraq https://www.trtworld.com/middle-east/in-pictures-iraq-s-struggle-with-environmental-challenges-40336 https://www.unenvironment.org/news-and-stories/story/crude-impact-cleaning-ravages-war-iraq https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/24/the-militias-are-not-allowing-us-back-sunnis-languish-in-camps-years-after-recapture-of-mosul Ridax2020 ( talk) 14:07, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
I mean the war has ended their are little to no attacks the last attack was a year ago in Baghdad 2.49.35.137 ( talk) 11:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move to Iraqi conflict as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.
This sidesteps the issue of what time period the article should cover; editors interested in considering this further are encouraged to open an RfC. ( closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal ( talk) 15:29, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
Iraqi conflict (2003–present) → Iraqi conflict (2003–2017) – Starting with article-content, this article does not reference any conflict events happening after 2017 so the title is simply inaccurate. The most recent US combat-deployment in Iraq ended in 2021 with major combat operations having ended in 2017. Whilst there are occasional terrorist attacks in Iraq, these are not nation-wide and are instead limited to certain areas, meaning they cannot be part of a whole-country "Iraqi conflict". Since the article lacks any coverage of events after 2017, it also lacks any substantiation that reliable sources treat the present very-low-level insurgency as part of the same conflict that began in 2003. Many reliable sources instead state that the war that began in 2003 essentially ended either in 2017 or before that, these include:
In contrast there is no coverage in reliable sources that I could find stating the opposite - that the period of conflict that began in 2003 is still ongoing. There's also consistency needed with our
War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) page, where we took the US exit from Afghanistan as the end of the war, despite there still being more than one ongoing insurgency in Afghanistan (
including an insurgency by ISIS!). Treating the present low-level insurgency as part of the same period of conflict that began in 2003 is therefore
original research, which is not allowed. Even from a point of view of usefulness, there is no need for a page that continues the coverage beyond 2017 since we already have a list-page for
conflicts in Iraq, a
general history page for Iraq post-2011 (which treats the war with ISIS as having ended in 2017).
Realistically speaking, there is likely to be violence in Iraq for some time, but that does not mean that we should treat every minor act of whatever grouping as an extension of the same conflict that began with a US-led coalition's war against Saddam Hussein without any sources that say so. We do not treat the attacks of the Real IRA as an extension of The Troubles. We do not treat the current ISIS insurgency in Afghanistan as part of the same conflict that began in 2001. We do not treat the Second World War in Europe as not having ended until the last of the insurgents in Eastern Europe were hunted down. We do not treat the Pacific War as not having ended until the surrender of Teruo Nakamura or Hiroo Onoda, despite their guerrilla attacks. FOARP ( talk) 15:11, 6 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal ( talk) 16:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
"Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence"). The 2006 remarks at a conference by David J. Kilkullen are better as a source per se but again the date of the remarks makes it not demonstrative of what is happening in 2023.
“phase of this conflict”, but I have to ask “what conflict?”. The article title specifies that this is a conflict that began in 2003 so this is not just any conflict - it is a specific one starting on that date. For that conflict to still be going on now you need a source saying that that the conflict that started in 2003 is still going on now. Otherwise this is simply a WP:V fail.
Further events after the ISIS conflict should not be added to this article unless a reliable source can be found saying that they are part of the same series of events that began in 2003. US forces being attacked by Iran/Iran-backed militias in Iraq in 2023 is not obviously part of the same conflict that began in 2003 and saying it is without a source is simply original research. The article for 2023 attacks on U.S. bases in Iraq and Syria states that they are part of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, it does not say they are part of any conflict that began in 2003. As discussed in detail last year, no source says the conflict that began in 2003 is still ongoing. This is like saying that the Korean war is part of WW2. FOARP ( talk) 13:38, 2 January 2024 (UTC)