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To make a long story short, Blackwater employs Chileans who are considered mercenaries under international law, and Americans who are not.
[1] They are popularly referred to as mercenaries but they carefully refer to themselves as private military contractors. They fit the
dictionary definition. Do we call them mercenaries? ←
BenB4
12:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Do they fit the definition of mercenaries?
Art 47. Mercenaries
A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
I think we should just go with the technical term here rather than the slang term. The technical term for them is private military contractors--this is how the US Government is referring to them, both in terms of their legal standing (or lack thereof), their military standing, and in terms of their casualties from the Dept of Labour. While the term mercenary does fit on some levels, it has connotations that will most likely spark some unnecessary editing--so let's just keep them listed under their current technical term to avoid that issue. Also, keep in mind it is very difficult to determine who exactly would fall under a "mercenary" label vs who would fall under a "private military contractor" label. For example, a person who cooks for Coalition forces could certainly be labeled a "private military contractor" and not a "mercenary" since their primary activity doesn't involve armed conflict, falling more under the catering services label. However, that same person is operating in the traditional sense of a low-ranking military personnel (a private peeling potatoes) by indirectly supporting those who actually do engage in armed conflict, so they could also be labeled a mercenary on that score. So rather than confusing the issue, I think it would be much easier to just use the term "private military contractors" for the time being. Publicus 21:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
the news has leaked http://www1.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/GWVIS_May2007.pdf
this is the official death toll. you cannot deny this. its from the veterans affairs and the join chief of staff!!!! manchurian candidate 14:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed the recently added text:
"'The Congressional-run Select Committee on Intelligence in 2004 did not find any evidence that "Administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities". [1] Similarly the Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction concluded in 2005 that "The Intelligence Community did not make or change any analytic judgments in response to political pressure to reach a particular conclusion, but the pervasive conventional wisdom that Saddam retained WMD affected the analytic process" [2]"
because it is misleading. Although the text does not make this clear, it is referring to first part of the Senate_Report_of_Pre-war_Intelligence_on_Iraq. The investigation was actually done by a subset of the senate select committee on intelligence. A "compromise" was struck in which they would split the investigation in to two parts: the first part was to examine the quality of the intelligence, and was to conclude before the 2004 election. The second part was to examine how the intelligence was used in policy decisions, and was to be conducted after the election. The sub-commitee had a republican majority, and was led by a republican who was accused of strong-arming the investigation. After the election, the republicans did not continue to the second part of the investigation, as they had promised in their "compromise" with the democratics.
The first part of the investigation, which the text refers to, did not examine how the administration used the intelligence, so it is altogether quite unsurprising that they found no evidence, for something that they didn't investigate. Furhtermore, the text gives the reader the impression that the second part of the investigation was performed, when, in fact, it was not.
Furthermore, the report produced by the first part of the investigation (which the text is referring to), did not examine the central issue at hand: the "stovepipping" of intelligence and the Office of Special Plans, though the text gives the reader the impression either that it did examine this, or that this was not the central issue.
The text is misleading and multiple accounts, on matters of important substance. And no balance is provided. And no context is provided. Kevin Baas talk 00:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Jc-S0CO keeps removing info from a reliable source, MediaLens, concerning casualties. See WP:RS. See last diff: [2]. The edit summary was "Removed partisan link per WP:RS. Seriously, just look at the "About Us" section on MediaLens's their web site."
Here is the info that was removed:
MediaLens is used as a reference in various wikipedia articles. Reference links can come from all sides. That is how WP:NPOV is met. By presenting all significant viewpoints. -- Timeshifter 09:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Surely there is a mainstream mention of that complaint. IBC themselves admits they undercount. From the horse's mouth via the BBC: "We've always said our work is an undercount, you can't possibly expect that a media-based analysis will get all the deaths."
[3] ←
BenB4
22:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Some additional points often overlooked. The British government accepts the Lancet survey as accurate. Over 90% of those asked for proof of death for their family members in the Lancet survey provided a death certificate. That means 590,000 documented deaths (or 900,000 if extrapolated to Sept 2007). Over 80% of the recorded IBC deaths are in Baghdad. Is it feasible that almost no one is getting killed in other parts of Iraq? The Lancet survey methodology was identical to one they used in the Congo which is accepted by the US government as accurate. Wayne 18:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I gave the source Timeshifter, click the link. For the numbers from another source, the latest figures from the Iraqi health ministry (reported by AP on 11 October) found that of 6,599 people killed in Iraq during July/Aug, 5,106 (77%) were in Baghdad. They imply 31,390 were killed in Baghdad in the last 12 months. If we believe them then that is up to 150,000 killed in Baghdad alone since 2003 yet the IBC say 70,000 for all of Iraq in total. — WLRoss 03:58, 27 September 2007 — continues after insertion below
It is extremely interesting that the ministry of health in Iraq has recorded only 10% of the Iraqi deaths from natural causes (making Iraq the healthiest country in the world), so can we assume it is the same for violent deaths? Can Isaac Pankonin tell me why there is no record of those missing death certificates for natural causes? Or is that another conspiracy theory? — WLRoss 03:58, 27 September 2007 — continues after insertion below
I found mentions from Epidemiologists. Epidemiologist Ronald Waldman of Columbia University told the Washington Post that the (Lancet) survey used a method that was "tried and true" and that "this is the best estimate of mortality we have." Rebecca Goldin from George Mason University: "While the Lancet numbers are shocking, the study's methodology is not. The scientific community is in agreement over the statistical methods used to collect the data and the validity of the conclusions drawn by the researchers conducting the study." I found many sources disputing the Lancet survey but in every case it was people commenting outside their area of expertise. — WLRoss 03:58, 27 September 2007 — continues after insertion below
Isaac Pankonin 05:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)Lancet estimates 150 people to have died from car bombs alone, on average, every day during June 2005-June 2006. IBC's database of deadly car bomb incidents shows they kill 7-8 people on average. Lancet's estimate corresponds to about 20 car bombs per day, all but one or two of which fail to be reported by the media. Yet car bombs fall well within the earlier-mentioned category of incidents which average 6 unique reports on them.
'Baghdad-weighting' of media reports, even if applicable to car bombs, is unlikely to account for this level of under-reporting, as half of the car bombs IBC has recorded have been outside Baghdad. The Pentagon, which has every reason to highlight the lethality of car bombs to Iraqis, records, on average, two to three car-bombings per day throughout Iraq, including those hitting only its own forces or causing no casualties, for the period in question. [6]
A couple of IBC quotes:
"We have always been quite explicit that our own total is certain to be an underestimate of the true position, because of gaps in reporting or recording."
"It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media."
"if George Bush has used our numbers... then he has misapplied them" —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
WLRoss (
talk •
contribs)
03:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't there at least be a little info in the Weapons of Mass destruction section about the claims of the former Air Vice-Marshal of Iraq that a lot of WMD material was loaded onto planes and flown to Syria for hiding just before the invasion? When i get some free time I'll dig up the reliable sources and add the info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elhector ( talk • contribs) 21:48, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() |
Please discuss the lead picture here. |
This appears like it will be a lengthy and seperate discussion.
Ursasapien
(talk)
08:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
"Liberation of Iraq" was recently added as an alternative title. I think it would be more appropriate for the 2003 invasion of Iraq article. The Liberation of Iraq page does not exist yet. Nor does Iraqi Liberation. Any thoughts? -- I. Pankonin ( t/ c) 09:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I thought the discussion was on renaming the article...my bad. I have no problem with Liberation of Iraq redirecting to 2003 invasion of Iraq. Wayne 07:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the findings of WMDs in Iraq in the lead section: Ipankonin keeps deleting "however they were not in usable condition and were not part of the WMD development programs for which the U.S. invaded" and replacing it with "however they were probably old, possibly degraded, and were probably not part of the WMD development programs for which the U.S. invaded." (emphasis added by me) The source Ipankonin has supplied for this assertion quotes a DoD official as saying, in no uncertain terms, "that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions" and that the weapons "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war." [9] It strikes me as extremely biased to put the condition of the munitions as well as their connection to the pre-war rationale in questionable terms when we have a senior DoD official clearly explaining that they were unusable and not part of the WMD weapons programs for which the U.S. justified the war.-- Rise Above The Vile 23:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I hardly think that FOX News is a better source than the Iraq Survey Group. More importantly, the paragraph starts out saying the reason for the invasion was that, "Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction." So, why are we talking about weapons that were most likely developed and produced before the 1991 invasion? The original statement that, "After the invasion, however,
no evidence was found of such weapons," (emphasis added) is completely, 100% accurate because it refers to the paragraph's antecedent, weapons in development. I am replacing the original version.
1of3
04:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I confused when you were reverting it but your version was not accepted then and should not be now without proof the weapons are what the administration claimed Iraq had. The current version is still consensus and accurate and only 2 editors are challenging it. The FOX article gives the POV impression the WMD found are something new just found out when in fact they have been reported many times over the years. I give this quote from the FOX article itself: "Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.. adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."". This alone negates your reason for changing the intro. Wayne 07:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
“ | The main rationale for the Iraq War offered by U.S. President George W. Bush, former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Tony Blair, and their domestic and foreign supporters was that Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction. | ” |
It was not undisputed. It was obviously disputed at the time:
1. Do you believe that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction; for instance, chemical or biological weapons?
President Chirac: Well, I don’t know. I have no evidence to support that… It seems that there are no nuclear weapons - no nuclear weapons program. That is something that the inspectors seem to be sure of. As for weapons of mass destruction, bacteriological, biological, chemical, we don’t know. And that is precisely what the inspectors’ mandate is all about. But rushing into war, rushing into battle today is clearly a disproportionate response. Interview with CBS 16th March 2003
2. A British intelligence source said the best intelligence on Saddam was held by the French who had agents in Iraq. 'French intelligence was telling us that there was effectively no real evidence of a WMD program. That's why France wanted a longer extension on the weapons inspections. The French, the Germans and the Russians all knew there were no weapons there -- and so did Blair and Bush as that's what the French told them directly. Blair ignored what the French told us and instead listened to the Americans.' Published on Sunday, June 1, 2003 by The Sunday Herald
3. French intelligence services did not come up with the same alarming assessment of Iraq and WMD as did the Britain and the United States. "According to secret agents at the DGSE, Saddam's Iraq does not represent any kind of nuclear threat at this time…It [the French assessment] contradicts the CIA's analysis…" French spies said that the Iraqi nuclear threat claimed by the United States was a "phony threat." Institute for Science and International Security
4. Russia was not convinced by either the September 24, 2002 British dossier or the October 4, 2002 CIA report. Lacking sufficient evidence, Russia dismissed the claims as a part of a "propaganda furor."Specifically targeting the CIA report, Putin said, "Fears are one thing, hard facts are another." He goes on to say, "Russia does not have in its possession any trustworthy data that supports the existence of nuclear weapons or any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and we have not received any such information from our partners yet. This fact has also been supported by the information sent by the CIA to the US Congress." However, Putin was apprehensive about the possibility that Iraq may have WMDs and he therefore supported inspections. The Russian ambassador to London thought that the dossier was a document of concern. "It is impressive, but not always…convincing." Institute for Science and International Security.
"When I left Iraq in 1998... the infrastructure and facilities had been 100% eliminated. There's no doubt about that. All of their instruments and facilities had been destroyed. The weapons design facility had been destroyed. The production equipment had been hunted down and destroyed. And we had in place means to monitor - both from vehicles and from the air - the gamma rays that accompany attempts to enrich uranium or plutonium. We never found anything." (Scott Ritter and William Rivers Pitt, ‘War On Iraq’ Profile Books, 2002 p.26)
Further to this, quoting from "Recent Intelligence Lessons/ Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Capability" (Chapter 3 of "Report of the Inquiry into Australian Intelligence Agencies" http://www.pmc.gov.au/publications/intelligence_inquiry/index.htm ):
"Notwithstanding the "very considerable obstacles" placed in UNSCOM's way, UNSCOM assessed that a great deal had been achieved in removing or rendering harmless "substantial portions" of Iraq's WMD capability. But despite the years of extensive work, the impact of Iraq's incomplete disclosures, unilateral destruction and concerted concealment practices had made it impossible for UNSCOM "to verify, fully, Iraq's statements with respect to the nature and magnitude of its proscribed weapons programmes and their current disposition". Significant discrepancies in accounting for all of the programmes covered by UNSCOM's mandate thus remained. While accurate totals are difficult to establish, according to UNSCOM reporting these included:
* more than 20,000 chemical warfare munitions * 1.5 tonnes of bulk chemical warfare agent * more than 80 tonnes of chemical precursors * nearly 2,000 kilograms of biological warfare growth media.
"It is important to note that the 'discrepancies' listed by UNSCOM did not represent a known residual capability or stockpile. They were discrepancies in accounting which had not been satisfactorily resolved. In some cases, the baseline figures used to calculate the discrepancies were provided by Iraq and could not be independently verified.
"In March 1999, a senior UN panel appointed by the Security Council judged that "although important elements still have to be resolved, the bulk of Iraq's proscribed weapons have been eliminated"." (my emphasis)
It was also disputed by Hans Blix in September 2002: ‘If I had solid evidence that Iraq retained weapons of mass destruction or were constructing such weapons I would take it to the Security Council.’ (Quoted in The Independent, September 11th 2002) Dwtray2007 23:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
In all fairness, whether it was the prime reason or not, the Bush administration repeatedly invoked the WMD's as rationale to invade Iraq. Second, as we all know, no evidence of their existence has been provided so far. Even the administration acknowledged that it is unlikely they will ever be found (how can that be?). With that in mind I think it is more than unreasonable to ignore the discrepancy between the original claims and current facts on the ground. Also, I don't think undisputed accurately describes the allegations regarding the WMD's, i.e. IAEA and yellowcake forgery. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 17:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I suggest (in fact insist) you read that article before "focusing on correcting this one" as everything you are bringing up here is already there in much more detail and updated far beyond what you want to use here. Wayne 18:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The following was copied from User_talk:WLRoss -- I. Pankonin ( t/ c) 00:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC):
I think it's clear that you don't want any statements in any article that would go against your view of the world. I want to make it clear that I am going to take steps to include the other side. There have been a few occasions when I saw a source supplied that gives both sides of an argument, and the article only includes the side that you like. The extent of this on the Iraq War articles is frankly ridiculous. I insist on neutrality, and I refuse to engage in edit wars. I will go as far up the dispute resolution process as necessary. I. Pankonin ( t/ c) 07:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
You are overlooking the most important facts. They are not the WMD mentioned in the lead, Iraq did not know they existed and they are reletively harmless due to age. To mention them in the lead of Iraq War gives the implication that the main rationale for the Iraq War was proven correct. As such it is very POV to include it there. If you dont think the mention of them in the article Rationale for the Iraq War is adequate then improve on it there. Wayne 06:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
The preceding was copied from User_talk:WLRoss -- I. Pankonin ( t/ c) 00:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I like the idea of a collage, but tearing down Saddam's statue has precious little to do with the war, and a lot to do with propaganda. The other three scenes depict events that repeat every day in Iraq. All four should.
1of3
17:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
In the interests of keeping the discussion coherent, could you add your comments to the header image discussion page? Thanks Publicus 20:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Admittedly, I am coming from a pro-war perspective. Nevertheless, the lead seems like it could use some work to achieve neutrality. It asserts that, "The main rationale for the Iraq War offered by U.S. President George W. Bush, former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, and their domestic and foreign supporters was that Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction." I think this is debateable. There were many rationales given and I do not remember anyone saying "the main reason is ..."
Second, it states, "After the invasion, however, no evidence was found of such weapons." This statement is misleading, as this is further evidence that Saddam and his government had not complied with the U.N. and had hidden/transferred his WMD's. The world knows he had WMD's, there has never been any evidence that these were destroyed, so they must be hidden/transferred.
Third, the lead reads, "To support the war, some U.S. officials cited claims of a connection between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. No substantial evidence of any such connection has been found." This seems like weasel-wording to me. "No substantial evidence" - what does that mean.
I think the lead for any article is really important. I think a lead for a controversial article is even more important. If we can not maintain a NPOV in the lead, is there any hope for the article itsself? Ursasapien (talk) 11:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The lead for this article is pretty unstable. I want to encourage people to be bold in improving it, but there are a few things people can do to the lead that I and others will revert:
See
WP:LEAD. Frankly, there are plenty of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources cited which say WMDs were the main reason, and the other rationales came later; while NRO bloggers might be thing to argue otherwise, they aren't considered reliable. Same with Saddam having "hidden/transferred his WMD's" -- if there was a shred of evidence of that, we would constantly be bombarded with it. "No substantial evidence" means that an Al Qaida guy was living in Baghdad for a while, but there's no indication that he ever talked to Saddam's government, and lots of parties deny it. I think "substantial" is being very charitable to the point of undue weight, but it's a compromise. ←
BenB4
23:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, the dog and pony show is over. What should we say about it?
Which topics should go in and which should stay out? ←
BenB4
21:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I would just start with a new section stating that they gave their report. I'm sure people will fill in the rest. Publicus 13:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Give me a break. Gen. Petraeus is the commander of Coalition forces in Iraq and can be expected to know what he's talking about regardless of whether he shared his report with colleagues first (which he did not to allay fears that it would be written by the White House). The fact that people try to sling dirt on him when he says something contrary to their completely uninformed opinion on the progress of the war in Iraq is sickening and unacceptable and their crackpot opinions do not belong in this encyclopedia. Kensai Max 14:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Numbers 2, 3, 4, 6, and 8 are all worthy and directly pertinent to the war. The others, not so much.
Acct4
13:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
For most of the first half of this year we had a sentence, which with several minor variations over the time it was included, was to the effect of:
That is a very well-sourced statement, and no matter what you think about the validity of the reasons, each one of them was articulated in detail before the invasion, and existing text in the article supports that fact.
The Wolfowitz statement was apparently controversial for some reason I don't understand, so it was eventually replaced by this Washington Post article, which quotes unnamed "senior Bush administration officials," named retired officials, and the infamous group theorist, oil minister, and (according to the sources in his article) suspected Iranian double-agent Ahmed Chalabi.
Alan Greenspan said the war was about oil a month ago, but the citation to that effect was summarily removed: "Greenspan is not an expert on foreign policy." He is, however, an expert on the economic concerns of the nation and in particular inflation which is heavily influenced by the price of oil, and was privy to the decision-makers and their reasons, meeting with Bush on a weekly basis.
None of those sources were particularly satisfactory, and given the often visceral emotional reaction to suggesting that the war is "about oil" the statement was removed from the introduction. But now comes retired CENTCOM Commander General John Abizaid, who said on Saturday:
I am replacing the statement. I am also correcting the misdirection surrounding the "urgent threat" claims.
1of3
11:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
If I remember correctly the statement was moved to the body of the article because the administration was very clear that while they were concerns they had nothing to do with the invasion or rationale. They only assumed that role after no WMD were found. Wayne 12:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed these two sentences from the intro:
and:
Because, as the 2nd paragraph said months ago, and now says again, the primary rationale (always mentioned first in the laundry lists if not alone) was not simply that Iraq had or was developing WMDs, but that there was an "imminent," "urgent," and "immediate threat," as the cited source demonstrates.
It doesn't matter that diplomats from some nations that opposed the war thought Saddam had WMDs, because they didn't think he posed much of a threat.
It doesn't matter than Bush said the U.S. can't wait until the threat became imminent in one particular speech, because he and his spokespeople are on record making much more serious statements before and after.
1of3
14:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
This erroneous claim needs to be deleted from the lead section, and anywhere else it appears. Here's why:
The aforementioned sentence has now been falsified. It should be removed forthwith. smb 22:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Recently, a bill was passed through a congressional committee labeling the slaughter of Armenians by the Ottoman Empire during WWI as a genocide, causing a serious crisis in relations between the US and Turkey, a key US ally in the region. The Turkish ambassador was recalled from the US as a result, and now the Turkish military is massing on the border of the northern Kurdish region of Iraq and seriously looking like they plan to invade. The Turkey-PKK conflict is briefly mentioned in this article, but there is no mention of the congressional action which (in part) sparked this off. Shouldn't this merit some mention? ~ S0CO( talk| contribs) 05:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The info box says: "Coalition injured, diseased, or other medical:** 28,645 US". I was checking statistics on post-traumatic stress disorder in Iraqi veterans and found that the VA has 50,000 combat veterans currently being treated for PTSD. Further the VA has 100,580 veterans being treated for all forms of mental disability. Surprisingly almost half are new cases since June 30, 2006. The VA doesn't separate Iraqi from Afghanistan veterans but the majority must be from Iraq and it must be easy to estimate percentage split. Having checked the 3 sources given for the infobox data it appears they are all military. Why do we not use the documented VA stats? Surely an estimation of the true number of casualties will be more accurate than what is there now. Wayne 02:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The problem with adding people with PTSD to the list of "coalition injured" is the lack of similarity between those who were injured in some way during their stint in Iraq versus those who suffer PTSD at some later point. So to include the PTSD people in the info box list of casualties might be confusing the overall casualty number. If we look at the Vietnam war, or other historical wars, usually the best practice has been to list only those who were wounded in combat or as a result of being in a combat zone. We've already expanded that traditional definition of wounded by including the coalition wounded/injured/medvaced/etc in the info box and I think it may be too much of a stretch to add the PTSD sufferers as well. Especially since many of these people may not exhibit signs of PTSD until months and years later. However, PTSD is an important aspect of this war and deserves a mention in the article. A possible edit might be mentioning this PTSD issue and supporting research in the Iraq war article as a part of the "casualties" section, with a wiki link to a broader explanation of the issue in the Casualties of the Iraq War article. In the "Casualties" article there is already a brief section discussing PTSD, perhaps this should be expanded. Publicus 14:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
This is quite a broad statement that needs to have some references, certainly for the last part.
The original U.S. justification for the Iraq War was Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program and Saddam Hussein's alleged collaboration with the Al-Qaeda terrorist group. However, the intelligence on both these claims has been criticized and largely discredited post-invasion, with the Bush administration accused of falsely portraying the available intelligence. Cronos2546 19:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
First off, I am American and conservative Repulican. That being said, like many in my party this subject has been the cause of much gritting of the teeth. I and many like me didn't want the war in the 1st place and now we are in a mess without a clear way out. Now all that is nice but ''None of that has any business in this article This is supposed to be an article about the event not the political views of the editors. I am not sure who was doing all the strike outs of other's views here but that can lead to a quick ban. As to how I would approach this article:
Tirronan 14:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a general query really, wondered if maybe Poland should be on the combatant list, i think i read somewhere they are contributing the fourth largest army to the Iraq War, i think it was Poland and Denmark ??? ( Neostinker 21:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC))
Wow. That's all I can say. This section makes so many claims, most of which are not cited. If they aren't cited, I'm going to remove them for being uncited. And unless cites can be provided they should not be added back.
Plus, there was a lot of POV with the image captions which i have worked on. I know this is a very controversial topic, but I've only spent about a half hour on this page and can already see it is extremely biased against the US and coalition forces. Happyme22 ( talk) 22:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed much of the uncited and added {{ cn}} tags for the others that are known but aren't cited. Plus, it seems as if this page focuses way to much on how bad the US is, giving special attention to the Abu-Ghrahib incident and "human rights abuses." May I remind everyone that the terrorists are the ones killing the incident civilians? And yes, there are small groups of soldiers that have violated the "code" if you will, and enaged in poor acts that reflect badly on the United States. But, let's not let those acts (Abu-Ghrahib, rape) speak for the total US presence in the region. I'm going to say 97% of soldiers are doing great work and fighting for our country, compared to 3% estimate that aren't. Again, this article cannot allow the poor acts of a minor group of people to represent the entire group and the entire mission.
It seems few users have risen up to the challenge of removing all the POV in this article, so I am taking it upon myself. This is making my blood boil. -- Happyme22 ( talk) 22:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
The main problem is that you are doing a lot of large edits in a short time and it is far easier to revert all than work through them to decide what goes or stays. Most editors do small edits over time to give them a chance. The "top general" is welcome to his views but there are other opposing views. The humanitarian crisis may be getting worse (as shown by the increase in cholera) and the reduction in violence seems linked more to less coalition presence than things getting better (as shown by the british pullout being directly responsible for a 90% reduction in violence and US forces shifting from "search and destroy" tactics to what they call "search and avoid"). Legality of the war is largely now semantics. Even some members of the Bush administration have admitted it's illegality (ie Wolfawitz and Perle). Don't give up so easily. Try to edit without preconvieved ideas of what NPOV is. Read both and pro and con articles and work from there as both contain facts that the other ignores. If your edits are legitimately NPOV then many will be accepted (some may not be but then find better sources for them). This is a controversial article so it is only natural it will take time and effort to edit with many dissapointments along the way. Wayne 03:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
To make a long story short, Blackwater employs Chileans who are considered mercenaries under international law, and Americans who are not.
[1] They are popularly referred to as mercenaries but they carefully refer to themselves as private military contractors. They fit the
dictionary definition. Do we call them mercenaries? ←
BenB4
12:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Do they fit the definition of mercenaries?
Art 47. Mercenaries
A mercenary is any person who:
(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.
I think we should just go with the technical term here rather than the slang term. The technical term for them is private military contractors--this is how the US Government is referring to them, both in terms of their legal standing (or lack thereof), their military standing, and in terms of their casualties from the Dept of Labour. While the term mercenary does fit on some levels, it has connotations that will most likely spark some unnecessary editing--so let's just keep them listed under their current technical term to avoid that issue. Also, keep in mind it is very difficult to determine who exactly would fall under a "mercenary" label vs who would fall under a "private military contractor" label. For example, a person who cooks for Coalition forces could certainly be labeled a "private military contractor" and not a "mercenary" since their primary activity doesn't involve armed conflict, falling more under the catering services label. However, that same person is operating in the traditional sense of a low-ranking military personnel (a private peeling potatoes) by indirectly supporting those who actually do engage in armed conflict, so they could also be labeled a mercenary on that score. So rather than confusing the issue, I think it would be much easier to just use the term "private military contractors" for the time being. Publicus 21:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
the news has leaked http://www1.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/GWVIS_May2007.pdf
this is the official death toll. you cannot deny this. its from the veterans affairs and the join chief of staff!!!! manchurian candidate 14:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed the recently added text:
"'The Congressional-run Select Committee on Intelligence in 2004 did not find any evidence that "Administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities". [1] Similarly the Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction concluded in 2005 that "The Intelligence Community did not make or change any analytic judgments in response to political pressure to reach a particular conclusion, but the pervasive conventional wisdom that Saddam retained WMD affected the analytic process" [2]"
because it is misleading. Although the text does not make this clear, it is referring to first part of the Senate_Report_of_Pre-war_Intelligence_on_Iraq. The investigation was actually done by a subset of the senate select committee on intelligence. A "compromise" was struck in which they would split the investigation in to two parts: the first part was to examine the quality of the intelligence, and was to conclude before the 2004 election. The second part was to examine how the intelligence was used in policy decisions, and was to be conducted after the election. The sub-commitee had a republican majority, and was led by a republican who was accused of strong-arming the investigation. After the election, the republicans did not continue to the second part of the investigation, as they had promised in their "compromise" with the democratics.
The first part of the investigation, which the text refers to, did not examine how the administration used the intelligence, so it is altogether quite unsurprising that they found no evidence, for something that they didn't investigate. Furhtermore, the text gives the reader the impression that the second part of the investigation was performed, when, in fact, it was not.
Furthermore, the report produced by the first part of the investigation (which the text is referring to), did not examine the central issue at hand: the "stovepipping" of intelligence and the Office of Special Plans, though the text gives the reader the impression either that it did examine this, or that this was not the central issue.
The text is misleading and multiple accounts, on matters of important substance. And no balance is provided. And no context is provided. Kevin Baas talk 00:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
User:Jc-S0CO keeps removing info from a reliable source, MediaLens, concerning casualties. See WP:RS. See last diff: [2]. The edit summary was "Removed partisan link per WP:RS. Seriously, just look at the "About Us" section on MediaLens's their web site."
Here is the info that was removed:
MediaLens is used as a reference in various wikipedia articles. Reference links can come from all sides. That is how WP:NPOV is met. By presenting all significant viewpoints. -- Timeshifter 09:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Surely there is a mainstream mention of that complaint. IBC themselves admits they undercount. From the horse's mouth via the BBC: "We've always said our work is an undercount, you can't possibly expect that a media-based analysis will get all the deaths."
[3] ←
BenB4
22:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Some additional points often overlooked. The British government accepts the Lancet survey as accurate. Over 90% of those asked for proof of death for their family members in the Lancet survey provided a death certificate. That means 590,000 documented deaths (or 900,000 if extrapolated to Sept 2007). Over 80% of the recorded IBC deaths are in Baghdad. Is it feasible that almost no one is getting killed in other parts of Iraq? The Lancet survey methodology was identical to one they used in the Congo which is accepted by the US government as accurate. Wayne 18:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I gave the source Timeshifter, click the link. For the numbers from another source, the latest figures from the Iraqi health ministry (reported by AP on 11 October) found that of 6,599 people killed in Iraq during July/Aug, 5,106 (77%) were in Baghdad. They imply 31,390 were killed in Baghdad in the last 12 months. If we believe them then that is up to 150,000 killed in Baghdad alone since 2003 yet the IBC say 70,000 for all of Iraq in total. — WLRoss 03:58, 27 September 2007 — continues after insertion below
It is extremely interesting that the ministry of health in Iraq has recorded only 10% of the Iraqi deaths from natural causes (making Iraq the healthiest country in the world), so can we assume it is the same for violent deaths? Can Isaac Pankonin tell me why there is no record of those missing death certificates for natural causes? Or is that another conspiracy theory? — WLRoss 03:58, 27 September 2007 — continues after insertion below
I found mentions from Epidemiologists. Epidemiologist Ronald Waldman of Columbia University told the Washington Post that the (Lancet) survey used a method that was "tried and true" and that "this is the best estimate of mortality we have." Rebecca Goldin from George Mason University: "While the Lancet numbers are shocking, the study's methodology is not. The scientific community is in agreement over the statistical methods used to collect the data and the validity of the conclusions drawn by the researchers conducting the study." I found many sources disputing the Lancet survey but in every case it was people commenting outside their area of expertise. — WLRoss 03:58, 27 September 2007 — continues after insertion below
Isaac Pankonin 05:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)Lancet estimates 150 people to have died from car bombs alone, on average, every day during June 2005-June 2006. IBC's database of deadly car bomb incidents shows they kill 7-8 people on average. Lancet's estimate corresponds to about 20 car bombs per day, all but one or two of which fail to be reported by the media. Yet car bombs fall well within the earlier-mentioned category of incidents which average 6 unique reports on them.
'Baghdad-weighting' of media reports, even if applicable to car bombs, is unlikely to account for this level of under-reporting, as half of the car bombs IBC has recorded have been outside Baghdad. The Pentagon, which has every reason to highlight the lethality of car bombs to Iraqis, records, on average, two to three car-bombings per day throughout Iraq, including those hitting only its own forces or causing no casualties, for the period in question. [6]
A couple of IBC quotes:
"We have always been quite explicit that our own total is certain to be an underestimate of the true position, because of gaps in reporting or recording."
"It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media."
"if George Bush has used our numbers... then he has misapplied them" —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
WLRoss (
talk •
contribs)
03:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't there at least be a little info in the Weapons of Mass destruction section about the claims of the former Air Vice-Marshal of Iraq that a lot of WMD material was loaded onto planes and flown to Syria for hiding just before the invasion? When i get some free time I'll dig up the reliable sources and add the info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elhector ( talk • contribs) 21:48, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
![]() |
Please discuss the lead picture here. |
This appears like it will be a lengthy and seperate discussion.
Ursasapien
(talk)
08:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
"Liberation of Iraq" was recently added as an alternative title. I think it would be more appropriate for the 2003 invasion of Iraq article. The Liberation of Iraq page does not exist yet. Nor does Iraqi Liberation. Any thoughts? -- I. Pankonin ( t/ c) 09:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I thought the discussion was on renaming the article...my bad. I have no problem with Liberation of Iraq redirecting to 2003 invasion of Iraq. Wayne 07:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Concerning the findings of WMDs in Iraq in the lead section: Ipankonin keeps deleting "however they were not in usable condition and were not part of the WMD development programs for which the U.S. invaded" and replacing it with "however they were probably old, possibly degraded, and were probably not part of the WMD development programs for which the U.S. invaded." (emphasis added by me) The source Ipankonin has supplied for this assertion quotes a DoD official as saying, in no uncertain terms, "that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions" and that the weapons "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war." [9] It strikes me as extremely biased to put the condition of the munitions as well as their connection to the pre-war rationale in questionable terms when we have a senior DoD official clearly explaining that they were unusable and not part of the WMD weapons programs for which the U.S. justified the war.-- Rise Above The Vile 23:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I hardly think that FOX News is a better source than the Iraq Survey Group. More importantly, the paragraph starts out saying the reason for the invasion was that, "Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction." So, why are we talking about weapons that were most likely developed and produced before the 1991 invasion? The original statement that, "After the invasion, however,
no evidence was found of such weapons," (emphasis added) is completely, 100% accurate because it refers to the paragraph's antecedent, weapons in development. I am replacing the original version.
1of3
04:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I confused when you were reverting it but your version was not accepted then and should not be now without proof the weapons are what the administration claimed Iraq had. The current version is still consensus and accurate and only 2 editors are challenging it. The FOX article gives the POV impression the WMD found are something new just found out when in fact they have been reported many times over the years. I give this quote from the FOX article itself: "Offering the official administration response to FOX News, a senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.. adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."". This alone negates your reason for changing the intro. Wayne 07:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
“ | The main rationale for the Iraq War offered by U.S. President George W. Bush, former Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Tony Blair, and their domestic and foreign supporters was that Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction. | ” |
It was not undisputed. It was obviously disputed at the time:
1. Do you believe that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction; for instance, chemical or biological weapons?
President Chirac: Well, I don’t know. I have no evidence to support that… It seems that there are no nuclear weapons - no nuclear weapons program. That is something that the inspectors seem to be sure of. As for weapons of mass destruction, bacteriological, biological, chemical, we don’t know. And that is precisely what the inspectors’ mandate is all about. But rushing into war, rushing into battle today is clearly a disproportionate response. Interview with CBS 16th March 2003
2. A British intelligence source said the best intelligence on Saddam was held by the French who had agents in Iraq. 'French intelligence was telling us that there was effectively no real evidence of a WMD program. That's why France wanted a longer extension on the weapons inspections. The French, the Germans and the Russians all knew there were no weapons there -- and so did Blair and Bush as that's what the French told them directly. Blair ignored what the French told us and instead listened to the Americans.' Published on Sunday, June 1, 2003 by The Sunday Herald
3. French intelligence services did not come up with the same alarming assessment of Iraq and WMD as did the Britain and the United States. "According to secret agents at the DGSE, Saddam's Iraq does not represent any kind of nuclear threat at this time…It [the French assessment] contradicts the CIA's analysis…" French spies said that the Iraqi nuclear threat claimed by the United States was a "phony threat." Institute for Science and International Security
4. Russia was not convinced by either the September 24, 2002 British dossier or the October 4, 2002 CIA report. Lacking sufficient evidence, Russia dismissed the claims as a part of a "propaganda furor."Specifically targeting the CIA report, Putin said, "Fears are one thing, hard facts are another." He goes on to say, "Russia does not have in its possession any trustworthy data that supports the existence of nuclear weapons or any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and we have not received any such information from our partners yet. This fact has also been supported by the information sent by the CIA to the US Congress." However, Putin was apprehensive about the possibility that Iraq may have WMDs and he therefore supported inspections. The Russian ambassador to London thought that the dossier was a document of concern. "It is impressive, but not always…convincing." Institute for Science and International Security.
"When I left Iraq in 1998... the infrastructure and facilities had been 100% eliminated. There's no doubt about that. All of their instruments and facilities had been destroyed. The weapons design facility had been destroyed. The production equipment had been hunted down and destroyed. And we had in place means to monitor - both from vehicles and from the air - the gamma rays that accompany attempts to enrich uranium or plutonium. We never found anything." (Scott Ritter and William Rivers Pitt, ‘War On Iraq’ Profile Books, 2002 p.26)
Further to this, quoting from "Recent Intelligence Lessons/ Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction Capability" (Chapter 3 of "Report of the Inquiry into Australian Intelligence Agencies" http://www.pmc.gov.au/publications/intelligence_inquiry/index.htm ):
"Notwithstanding the "very considerable obstacles" placed in UNSCOM's way, UNSCOM assessed that a great deal had been achieved in removing or rendering harmless "substantial portions" of Iraq's WMD capability. But despite the years of extensive work, the impact of Iraq's incomplete disclosures, unilateral destruction and concerted concealment practices had made it impossible for UNSCOM "to verify, fully, Iraq's statements with respect to the nature and magnitude of its proscribed weapons programmes and their current disposition". Significant discrepancies in accounting for all of the programmes covered by UNSCOM's mandate thus remained. While accurate totals are difficult to establish, according to UNSCOM reporting these included:
* more than 20,000 chemical warfare munitions * 1.5 tonnes of bulk chemical warfare agent * more than 80 tonnes of chemical precursors * nearly 2,000 kilograms of biological warfare growth media.
"It is important to note that the 'discrepancies' listed by UNSCOM did not represent a known residual capability or stockpile. They were discrepancies in accounting which had not been satisfactorily resolved. In some cases, the baseline figures used to calculate the discrepancies were provided by Iraq and could not be independently verified.
"In March 1999, a senior UN panel appointed by the Security Council judged that "although important elements still have to be resolved, the bulk of Iraq's proscribed weapons have been eliminated"." (my emphasis)
It was also disputed by Hans Blix in September 2002: ‘If I had solid evidence that Iraq retained weapons of mass destruction or were constructing such weapons I would take it to the Security Council.’ (Quoted in The Independent, September 11th 2002) Dwtray2007 23:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
In all fairness, whether it was the prime reason or not, the Bush administration repeatedly invoked the WMD's as rationale to invade Iraq. Second, as we all know, no evidence of their existence has been provided so far. Even the administration acknowledged that it is unlikely they will ever be found (how can that be?). With that in mind I think it is more than unreasonable to ignore the discrepancy between the original claims and current facts on the ground. Also, I don't think undisputed accurately describes the allegations regarding the WMD's, i.e. IAEA and yellowcake forgery. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 17:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I suggest (in fact insist) you read that article before "focusing on correcting this one" as everything you are bringing up here is already there in much more detail and updated far beyond what you want to use here. Wayne 18:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The following was copied from User_talk:WLRoss -- I. Pankonin ( t/ c) 00:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC):
I think it's clear that you don't want any statements in any article that would go against your view of the world. I want to make it clear that I am going to take steps to include the other side. There have been a few occasions when I saw a source supplied that gives both sides of an argument, and the article only includes the side that you like. The extent of this on the Iraq War articles is frankly ridiculous. I insist on neutrality, and I refuse to engage in edit wars. I will go as far up the dispute resolution process as necessary. I. Pankonin ( t/ c) 07:57, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
You are overlooking the most important facts. They are not the WMD mentioned in the lead, Iraq did not know they existed and they are reletively harmless due to age. To mention them in the lead of Iraq War gives the implication that the main rationale for the Iraq War was proven correct. As such it is very POV to include it there. If you dont think the mention of them in the article Rationale for the Iraq War is adequate then improve on it there. Wayne 06:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
The preceding was copied from User_talk:WLRoss -- I. Pankonin ( t/ c) 00:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I like the idea of a collage, but tearing down Saddam's statue has precious little to do with the war, and a lot to do with propaganda. The other three scenes depict events that repeat every day in Iraq. All four should.
1of3
17:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
In the interests of keeping the discussion coherent, could you add your comments to the header image discussion page? Thanks Publicus 20:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Admittedly, I am coming from a pro-war perspective. Nevertheless, the lead seems like it could use some work to achieve neutrality. It asserts that, "The main rationale for the Iraq War offered by U.S. President George W. Bush, former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, and their domestic and foreign supporters was that Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction." I think this is debateable. There were many rationales given and I do not remember anyone saying "the main reason is ..."
Second, it states, "After the invasion, however, no evidence was found of such weapons." This statement is misleading, as this is further evidence that Saddam and his government had not complied with the U.N. and had hidden/transferred his WMD's. The world knows he had WMD's, there has never been any evidence that these were destroyed, so they must be hidden/transferred.
Third, the lead reads, "To support the war, some U.S. officials cited claims of a connection between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda. No substantial evidence of any such connection has been found." This seems like weasel-wording to me. "No substantial evidence" - what does that mean.
I think the lead for any article is really important. I think a lead for a controversial article is even more important. If we can not maintain a NPOV in the lead, is there any hope for the article itsself? Ursasapien (talk) 11:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The lead for this article is pretty unstable. I want to encourage people to be bold in improving it, but there are a few things people can do to the lead that I and others will revert:
See
WP:LEAD. Frankly, there are plenty of primary, secondary, and tertiary sources cited which say WMDs were the main reason, and the other rationales came later; while NRO bloggers might be thing to argue otherwise, they aren't considered reliable. Same with Saddam having "hidden/transferred his WMD's" -- if there was a shred of evidence of that, we would constantly be bombarded with it. "No substantial evidence" means that an Al Qaida guy was living in Baghdad for a while, but there's no indication that he ever talked to Saddam's government, and lots of parties deny it. I think "substantial" is being very charitable to the point of undue weight, but it's a compromise. ←
BenB4
23:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, the dog and pony show is over. What should we say about it?
Which topics should go in and which should stay out? ←
BenB4
21:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I would just start with a new section stating that they gave their report. I'm sure people will fill in the rest. Publicus 13:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Give me a break. Gen. Petraeus is the commander of Coalition forces in Iraq and can be expected to know what he's talking about regardless of whether he shared his report with colleagues first (which he did not to allay fears that it would be written by the White House). The fact that people try to sling dirt on him when he says something contrary to their completely uninformed opinion on the progress of the war in Iraq is sickening and unacceptable and their crackpot opinions do not belong in this encyclopedia. Kensai Max 14:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Numbers 2, 3, 4, 6, and 8 are all worthy and directly pertinent to the war. The others, not so much.
Acct4
13:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
For most of the first half of this year we had a sentence, which with several minor variations over the time it was included, was to the effect of:
That is a very well-sourced statement, and no matter what you think about the validity of the reasons, each one of them was articulated in detail before the invasion, and existing text in the article supports that fact.
The Wolfowitz statement was apparently controversial for some reason I don't understand, so it was eventually replaced by this Washington Post article, which quotes unnamed "senior Bush administration officials," named retired officials, and the infamous group theorist, oil minister, and (according to the sources in his article) suspected Iranian double-agent Ahmed Chalabi.
Alan Greenspan said the war was about oil a month ago, but the citation to that effect was summarily removed: "Greenspan is not an expert on foreign policy." He is, however, an expert on the economic concerns of the nation and in particular inflation which is heavily influenced by the price of oil, and was privy to the decision-makers and their reasons, meeting with Bush on a weekly basis.
None of those sources were particularly satisfactory, and given the often visceral emotional reaction to suggesting that the war is "about oil" the statement was removed from the introduction. But now comes retired CENTCOM Commander General John Abizaid, who said on Saturday:
I am replacing the statement. I am also correcting the misdirection surrounding the "urgent threat" claims.
1of3
11:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
If I remember correctly the statement was moved to the body of the article because the administration was very clear that while they were concerns they had nothing to do with the invasion or rationale. They only assumed that role after no WMD were found. Wayne 12:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed these two sentences from the intro:
and:
Because, as the 2nd paragraph said months ago, and now says again, the primary rationale (always mentioned first in the laundry lists if not alone) was not simply that Iraq had or was developing WMDs, but that there was an "imminent," "urgent," and "immediate threat," as the cited source demonstrates.
It doesn't matter that diplomats from some nations that opposed the war thought Saddam had WMDs, because they didn't think he posed much of a threat.
It doesn't matter than Bush said the U.S. can't wait until the threat became imminent in one particular speech, because he and his spokespeople are on record making much more serious statements before and after.
1of3
14:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
This erroneous claim needs to be deleted from the lead section, and anywhere else it appears. Here's why:
The aforementioned sentence has now been falsified. It should be removed forthwith. smb 22:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Recently, a bill was passed through a congressional committee labeling the slaughter of Armenians by the Ottoman Empire during WWI as a genocide, causing a serious crisis in relations between the US and Turkey, a key US ally in the region. The Turkish ambassador was recalled from the US as a result, and now the Turkish military is massing on the border of the northern Kurdish region of Iraq and seriously looking like they plan to invade. The Turkey-PKK conflict is briefly mentioned in this article, but there is no mention of the congressional action which (in part) sparked this off. Shouldn't this merit some mention? ~ S0CO( talk| contribs) 05:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
The info box says: "Coalition injured, diseased, or other medical:** 28,645 US". I was checking statistics on post-traumatic stress disorder in Iraqi veterans and found that the VA has 50,000 combat veterans currently being treated for PTSD. Further the VA has 100,580 veterans being treated for all forms of mental disability. Surprisingly almost half are new cases since June 30, 2006. The VA doesn't separate Iraqi from Afghanistan veterans but the majority must be from Iraq and it must be easy to estimate percentage split. Having checked the 3 sources given for the infobox data it appears they are all military. Why do we not use the documented VA stats? Surely an estimation of the true number of casualties will be more accurate than what is there now. Wayne 02:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The problem with adding people with PTSD to the list of "coalition injured" is the lack of similarity between those who were injured in some way during their stint in Iraq versus those who suffer PTSD at some later point. So to include the PTSD people in the info box list of casualties might be confusing the overall casualty number. If we look at the Vietnam war, or other historical wars, usually the best practice has been to list only those who were wounded in combat or as a result of being in a combat zone. We've already expanded that traditional definition of wounded by including the coalition wounded/injured/medvaced/etc in the info box and I think it may be too much of a stretch to add the PTSD sufferers as well. Especially since many of these people may not exhibit signs of PTSD until months and years later. However, PTSD is an important aspect of this war and deserves a mention in the article. A possible edit might be mentioning this PTSD issue and supporting research in the Iraq war article as a part of the "casualties" section, with a wiki link to a broader explanation of the issue in the Casualties of the Iraq War article. In the "Casualties" article there is already a brief section discussing PTSD, perhaps this should be expanded. Publicus 14:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
This is quite a broad statement that needs to have some references, certainly for the last part.
The original U.S. justification for the Iraq War was Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program and Saddam Hussein's alleged collaboration with the Al-Qaeda terrorist group. However, the intelligence on both these claims has been criticized and largely discredited post-invasion, with the Bush administration accused of falsely portraying the available intelligence. Cronos2546 19:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
First off, I am American and conservative Repulican. That being said, like many in my party this subject has been the cause of much gritting of the teeth. I and many like me didn't want the war in the 1st place and now we are in a mess without a clear way out. Now all that is nice but ''None of that has any business in this article This is supposed to be an article about the event not the political views of the editors. I am not sure who was doing all the strike outs of other's views here but that can lead to a quick ban. As to how I would approach this article:
Tirronan 14:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Just a general query really, wondered if maybe Poland should be on the combatant list, i think i read somewhere they are contributing the fourth largest army to the Iraq War, i think it was Poland and Denmark ??? ( Neostinker 21:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC))
Wow. That's all I can say. This section makes so many claims, most of which are not cited. If they aren't cited, I'm going to remove them for being uncited. And unless cites can be provided they should not be added back.
Plus, there was a lot of POV with the image captions which i have worked on. I know this is a very controversial topic, but I've only spent about a half hour on this page and can already see it is extremely biased against the US and coalition forces. Happyme22 ( talk) 22:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed much of the uncited and added {{ cn}} tags for the others that are known but aren't cited. Plus, it seems as if this page focuses way to much on how bad the US is, giving special attention to the Abu-Ghrahib incident and "human rights abuses." May I remind everyone that the terrorists are the ones killing the incident civilians? And yes, there are small groups of soldiers that have violated the "code" if you will, and enaged in poor acts that reflect badly on the United States. But, let's not let those acts (Abu-Ghrahib, rape) speak for the total US presence in the region. I'm going to say 97% of soldiers are doing great work and fighting for our country, compared to 3% estimate that aren't. Again, this article cannot allow the poor acts of a minor group of people to represent the entire group and the entire mission.
It seems few users have risen up to the challenge of removing all the POV in this article, so I am taking it upon myself. This is making my blood boil. -- Happyme22 ( talk) 22:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
The main problem is that you are doing a lot of large edits in a short time and it is far easier to revert all than work through them to decide what goes or stays. Most editors do small edits over time to give them a chance. The "top general" is welcome to his views but there are other opposing views. The humanitarian crisis may be getting worse (as shown by the increase in cholera) and the reduction in violence seems linked more to less coalition presence than things getting better (as shown by the british pullout being directly responsible for a 90% reduction in violence and US forces shifting from "search and destroy" tactics to what they call "search and avoid"). Legality of the war is largely now semantics. Even some members of the Bush administration have admitted it's illegality (ie Wolfawitz and Perle). Don't give up so easily. Try to edit without preconvieved ideas of what NPOV is. Read both and pro and con articles and work from there as both contain facts that the other ignores. If your edits are legitimately NPOV then many will be accepted (some may not be but then find better sources for them). This is a controversial article so it is only natural it will take time and effort to edit with many dissapointments along the way. Wayne 03:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)