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I'm not judging whether or not this should be included in the article, I'm just saying that I don't really see the connection between the photo's caption and the article. Not all Afghanis are Iranian are they? So were most of the mosques built by Iranian peoples there? Are non-Iranaian Afghanis not muslim? Can someone who is knowledgable please clarify this. Thanks Avraham 02:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Who the hell are you calling Afghans(Pashtoons) the Iranians? Iranians are mostly Safavids and Afghans are the 5th largest Tribe of the Aryans 12th tribes. Kurds are the other part of Aryans as well. but Iranians (Persian speaking community ) are Safavids and partly Aryans. as you may know Safavids are brunch of Turkish predecssors. so before speaking out think very carefull.
Tajiks are ( Perso-turckic) they are parts of mongols and Hazaras are also Mongols who came to Afghanistan, Iran, China in the 16th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.49.128.102 ( talk) 08:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Is that even grammatically correct? ( Havermayer 04:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)).
Peoples is wrong! (incorrect, not uncorrect) The people of are Iran are Iranian. There are a group of people. One person, two people, three people ... a group of people (i.e. one group and another two groups, and some more groups of people) are still people! I hope I made sense and you understood. Theomidrezaei 03:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
people of Iran have a long history.The first human right declaration was anounced by Koorosh (the grate cyrous)Iranians have participated in human civilisation.Many grate sientists,artists,poets,.. are from Iran.The efforts in history remains in the minds of people of Iran and people of the wold.People of Iran were among the first nations who belived in one God. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
79.127.125.9 (
talk)
16:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The article says: "the Achaemenid Persians established the world's first multi-national state." Not sure this is true - even the Babylonian Empire was multi-national. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PiCo ( talk • contribs) 05:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
could someone please tell me why the Amazons are infamous? OK there is a nasty story that the cut one of their breasts of but on the other hand there are TV-hits like Xenia. Wandalstouring 08:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
"Some tribes of Sarmatians are also identified as the
Amazons of Greek legend,"
No, they are not. Give a source! The ref says the opposite.
"warrior women believed to have lived in a...society in which both men and women took part in war,"
No. that does not apply to the greek Amazons, and there are no other "Amazons"
"and whose existence has been supported by recently-uncovered archaeological and genetic evidence."
No. The existence of some warrior women in Sarmatian culture (much too late) may have been evidenced. Still the source is very poor.
[1]
the line "The first is a Bronze Age mentioning by an Iranian tribe..." does not appear to be very clear to me. does the "first" refer to the "scant references to these early Proto-Iranian invaders in the early writings..." discussed in the previous paragraph? if so, then the two sentences are too far removed from each other for the link to be clear, especially since the intermediate sentences move away from "references" to discussing other matters. Doldrums 15:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
the sentence "Due the racial structure the Volga Tatars, Chuvashes and Crimean Tatars, as well as some other Turkic Euriopeans were derived not only from Turks, but also form Western Iranians." is not grammatically correct. Doldrums 16:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
with all the vandalism and nonsense added to the article (as a result of its featured status), who is going to be able to figure out what of value was lost and needs to be recovered? Is someone going to read and compare every word before/after its being featured? Should this article be semi-protected, at least? Hmains 19:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Tabreek!
Congrads for featured status!
Thanks for the zahamaat of all those involved!-- Zereshk 23:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The trouble is, this article is inherently racist - it identifies the speakers of a language (or group of language) as possessing a unique identity, and seeks other markers to reinforce that identity. This is the same line taken by the Nazis to support their ideas of the Aryan super-race, and flows from the same fallacy - that languages can be identified with their speakers. Linguists have long given up this idea, but it lingers in the populqar culture and in pseudo-scholarship - which, I'm afraid, is what this article is. PiCo 04:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
the article seems to be in need of a thorough review in general. I trimmed the "History" section a little bit. The "Roots" section should only treat prehistory, that is, Proto-Indo-Iranian up to Eastern:Western split. Scythians, Sarmatians and Achaemenids belong in the Eastern and Western sections respectively. It is not known where Avestan was spoken, and "Avestans" is not used as an ethnonym. Strictly speaking, it is not established that Avestan was really an "Eastern" dialect, but I admit it is typically classified as such. It is ludicrous to include speculations on the Amazons in this summary. Note that we have the Ancient Iranian peoples article, where these early times can be treated in full detail; the "Roots" section should only give a brief summary of that per WP:SS. dab (𒁳) 11:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Iranian azeris are Turks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.106.139.55 ( talk) 15:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
What is the point of the Zoroastrian picture of a Guardian Spirit? You might as well put that in, a picture of Jesus (as), a picture of Imam Ali (as), and whatever else represents the Iranians' religion. It's pointless. Armyrifle 00:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someone add a pronunciation header on the page? Is it e-RAHN-ian or eye-RAIN-ian? -- Liface 22:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Historically Incorrect usuage of a name I think the name Should be changed because there is too much confusion among people they think they are talking about Iran when referring to Aryans. it shows how much the iranians are in charge of the history books here. 71.141.233.93 07:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)Pashtun786
I agree too.Iran is a polictical state.It compramises of various ethnicites.Iranian is a nationality not a race as is Indian or Afghan or Pakistani and the reason is because they compramise of thousands of groups as oppossed to a single group.- Vmrgrsergr 19:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
As an Iranian, I agree with this Pashtun guy in one sense, that is despite genetical facts they should not generalize pashtun taliban fans to people like persians, kurds and tajiks, Azaris, ......... Mehrdad
as I remember it was agreed that Azeris should be mentioned in a special section and not as part of the list, also the information about uzbak was unsourced so I removed it. Gol 22:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes according to a popular theory Croats belive that they stem from ancient Iranian tribes (Sramathians most probably), the same theory says more or less that also Serbs and Bosnians are from this tribe. see this http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/chapter1.htm there dozens of srticles and books about this. A Romanian friend also once told me that there is a theory that the ancient Dacians of Romania were Iranians. I have not read it anywere but it makes sense, because as Ukraine (Scythia) was an Iranian land and they were also found in the Balkans so Romania most probably has been too. Also remember when Darius went to fight with the Scythians (Iranians) he crossed Danube (the border between the contemporary Bulgaria and Romania), while if there were no Scythians (Iranians) in Romania, then he could attack the scythians Via Central Asia or the Caucasus! He also pointed to some artifacts of Dacians which resembled those of Scythians. Anyway. Another people who you should not forget are the Jaszy of Hungary. As the name suggests they are releated to the Ossetians. In fact they are Alans who entered this region (Central Hungary). They have already forgotten their language but are still or (were for a long time) aware of their ethnicity. It is debated whether or not Armenians are Iranians. The Armenian language is very close to the Iranian languages. Things are similar which could not be said that they are taken over from (other) Iranian languages. Most probably Armenian is a separate branch of the Iranian languages (next to the west eg. persian, Kurdish etc... and East eg. Ossetian, Pamir etc...). Addinf to that the Armenian aristocracy and kings have been of parthian origins. So You can consider them as Iranian peoples or not. Most Armenians however do not like to be related to Iranians and a lot I have encountered are very hostile to Iranians. The main reason is the religiosu difference, not knowing that Ossetians (who do not deny their Iranianness)are also Orthodox Christians. Having said this Georgians who are a Kartvelian people have assimilated many ossetians (Alans) in them. Moreover the georgian ancient kings and aristocracy have been of Parthian origins too. So maybe you can only mention this without listing it. Babakexorramdin 12:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Azeris are mentioned in their own special section so no need for them to be on the list. (this was agreed on a while back)
When people do not speak Iranian languages they can not be part of the official list therefore croats and serbs are removed. They can however be mentioned (if there is enough evidence) in an speciall section like the one with Azeris. also tajik includes all tajiks so no need for "tajiks of china"
Gol
17:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
and if you ask me the Fars of Southern Iran are less Iranian than the Turkicspeaking Azeris, if measured by DNA genes and culture. Was it Iran not called Iran due to the Aryans? then certanly the Azeris and in general northern Iranian have more portion of Aryan genes and blood than do the Fars of South and Yazd and Kerman. Just think about it! Babakexorramdin 22:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion starts off about the possibility that Croats and Serbs are of Iranian origins, but then starts waffling about Turks and Georgians. Obviously off the topic because thay are not Balkan
Back to Serbs and Croats.. There is a theory that Serbs and Croats derived their NAME from Samartian tribes called Serboi and Chrobati. This is based on a few (very few) linguistic points, that are subject to much conjecture. Linguists and etymologists often come up with many different theories on the origin of a word, and the above example is one.
Serbs and Craots are certainly not Iranian peoples. They are slavs. They language is Slavic. Someone included Bosnians as Iranian peoples. Apart from being Muslim, they have nothing in common, so i removed them from the list.
The only possibilty that MAY be likely is the a caste of Samartian warriors living in the Ukrainian Steppes fled westwards to Poland, the hypothetical homeland of Slavs. Here they were assimilated by the more numerous Slavic tribes. Yet their name was kept, effectively lending them their name to the Serbo-Croats, which subsequently migrated to the Balkans in 7th to 8th century AD.
However this theory is likely to be inccorect. The very few, if any, sources who refer to these Samartian tribes are likely to be confused, as historians back then often referred to tribes based on location rather than ethnicity. Certainly DNA evidence does not support this idea at all (instead showing Serbs and Croats are 'composed' of Slavic genes mixed with the native Illyrians in the Balkans prior to the migration, and have no closer relation to Iranians than any other European).
But certainly an interesting idea Hxseek 08:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
And is it because you do not know who were dacians? is this what you called Turk? And may we know your own "ethnic" or "racial" background? ok to other people: I do not care about if the Yugoslavs are mentioend or not, but AZERIS should really be mentioned as an Iranian people. If Azeris are not an Iranian people (I do not mean language) then most of Iranians are not too. So AZERIS should be included. A warning: AN OBSCURE GROUP CONNECTED TO THE FAMOUS ANTI_IRANIAST BRENDA SHAFFER IS ACTIVE TO POLLUTE ALL INFORMATUION ON THE IRANIANS AND BRING ETHJNIC HATRED! Babakexorramdin 22:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
OK. YOUR DISCUSSION IS TITLED 'IRANIANS IN THE BALKANS"
MY FIRST POINT IS THAT TALKING ABOUT TURKISH AND GEORGIAN PEOPLE IS NOT RELEVANT, EVEN THOUGH THEY MIGHT BE IRANIAN, BECAUSE GEORGIA AND TURKEY ARE NOT BALKAN COUNTRIES. (REFER TO AN ATLAS AND EDUCATE YOURSELF)
SECONDLY, AS I SAID ABOUT THE CROAT AND SERBS THEORY, IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE , BUT QUITE UNLIKELY.
ABOUT YUGOSLAVS NOT BEING SLAVS, YOU'RE INCCORRECT. SLAVS CONTAIN HAPLOTYPE R1 a AT A RATE OF 20-30 % (THE "SLAVIC" GENE). YES, THIS IS LOWER COMPARED TO OTHER SLAVS LIKE UKRAINIAN AND POLES (40-60%). BUT THIS IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY INTERMIXED WITH THE ILLYRIANS, A NATIVE EUROPEAN PEOPLE LIVING IN THE BALKANS BEFORE AND DURING ROMAN TIMES, AS WELL AS OTHERS TO A SMALLER EXTENT (EG CELTS) . NO ONE IS PURE ANYTHING THESE DAYS.
YET, YUGOSLAVS ARE STILL SLAVS. (HENCE THE NAME). THEY SPEAK SLAVIC LANGUAGE, HAVE A SLAVIC WAY OF LIFE, AND -MOST IMPORTATNLY- IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS SLAVS. EHTNICITY CANNOT BE CONCLUDED FROM GENETICS ALONE, IT MERELY HELPS WITH IDENTIFYING COMMON ACESTRY.
I AM AUSTRALIAN WITH SOME YUGOSLAV BACKGROUND, SO I HAVE RESEARCHED THIS QUITE FULLY OUT OF INTEREST, AND I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AGAINST IRANIAN PEOPLE. BUT YOU SHOULD MAKES SURE YOU ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ
AS FOR THE THEORY THAT DACIANS ARE IRANIANS. I DO NOT THINK SO, THOUGH I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON THIS FIELD. DACIANS ARE AN INDO-EUROPEAN PEOPLE THAT ARE SIMILAR TO ILLYRIANS. I AM ALMOST 100% SURE THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IRANIANS.
IT IS TRUE THAT IRANIAN TRIBES ONCE HAD BEEN IN THE BALKANS. THE AVARS AND ALANS FOR EXAMPLE. HOWEVER HISTORIANS DO NOT AGREE WHETHER THEY WERE TURKIC, IRANIAN OR CENTRAL ASIATIC PEOPLES. HOWEVER, THEY WERE CONQUERED BY THE SERBS AND CROATS. THE BYZANTINE EMPEROR INVITED THE SERBS AND CROATS TO DESTROY THE AVARS BECAUSE THEY WERE A PEST TO THE EMPIRE. MOST WERE PROBABLY KILLED, ALTHOUGH CERTAINLY SOME WOULD HAVE BEEN ASSIMILATED WITH THE SLAVS.
FINAL POINT: THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN IRANIAN PEOPLE IN THE PAST TO MODERN IRANIANS. MODERN IRANIANS NO ARE NOT ONLY IRANIAN, BUT ALSO HAVE TURKIC AND ARABIC INFLUENCES DUE TO THE FACT THAT PERSIA WAS RULED BY VARIOUS TURKIC AND ARAB EMPIRES (DO NOT BE OFFENDED). SO MY POINT IS : IT MAY BE INCORRECT TO CALL CERTAIN OTHER PEOPLE IRANIAN (EG GEORGIANS OR WHATEVER) WHEN NOT EVEN PEOPLE FROM IRAN ARE TOTALLY IRANIAN
::::::::::: Whether race or Culture. Whther Partial or Complete First of all I did not spoke about Turkey, so I wonder where you got that? Secondly the Yugoslavs (except Slovenes to a high extent) do not have much sklavic genes and their way of life is different. They were speaking on the Iranian people (some say culturally, the other racially whatever) and I said if you take the genes as an starting points then it is not only Croats but also Bosniaks and Serbs as they are the same people with different religion. You got my point? I am aware of that the Yugoslavs have Illyrian, Iranian And Slavic roots, and this has given shape to a unique culture and genetical makeup. So my point was if they take the partial Iranianness as being Iranian then not only Croats but also Serbs and Bosniaks should be included. Secondly your talk on Avars and Alans: Dear friend central Asiatic peoples are either Iranian, Turkic, Mongolian or Hunnic. Although the affiliation of Huns to either group is contested. Avars are thaught to be Mongols (distinct from the Caucasian Avars) and Alans were Iranians. Moreover uit is believed that the Iranians who were in the Balkans were Sarmatian, or better said Scythians of Sarmatian decent, as the the eastern Scythians (Saka) were of Turanian (Iranian and not Turkic) decent. As I said I dont know about Dacians; they are still unknown to certain extents; but Why Darius passed the danube to attack the Scythians if they were not in Romiania? Just think about it. And I agree about Modern day Iranian and the ancient Iranian. I think that the writers should distinguish in that. While the Turkic or Mongolian Hazaras became sedentary and speak an Iranian language, the Parsis of India however are becoming less and less Iranian everyday. The Uzbeks and Tajiks were sarts, they are a mixture of Iranian and Turkic blood and were bilingual in Central Asian persian and Jaghatay Turkic. Their culture and way of life is however Iranian. So this is a case of cultural irannianness more than racial Iranianness. (However both people have had Soghdian blood; an extinct Iranian people!). But Azeris are in all stances Iranian: their Culture and their genetical make up is totally Iranian as way as their way of life. The only thing is their language; but as I said even many Azeris still speak their old Iranian language and many Talysh call themselves simply Azeri, as they believe they are the Azeris who have not lost their language. Moreover the Azeri Turkic language has Turkic grammatical structures (and some Iranian ones0 and many Turkic words (especially the verbs)but its lexicon and syntaxis is still very Iranian! So is the Uzbek language! Babakexorramdin 09:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes friend, but i think you overestimate the contribution of ancient Iranian peoples to the Balkans.
SOme ancient historians beleive that the Serboi and Chrobati were Samartian tribes that lived in the ukranian area. They were NEVER in the balkans. To say so is simply wrong. Their connection with the Balkans is this ( as i have already written) : some THEORIZE that these samartian tribes moved to Poland area and merged with some slav tribes, giving them the name Serbs and croats. These tribes then invaded the balkans, mixing with slavs that had moved their 1 century earlier.
So even if this theory is true, the Iranian compenent would be very small. They were numerically much smaller, and they assimilated ith the slavs, not the other way around.
THe second influence was the Alans. THey were nomadic group that was troubling the Roman empire. However , their empire (centred in modern day bulgaria) soon fell and conquered by the slavs, and the people either died or were absorbed by the slavs.
When a group is conquered, they are forced to accept slavic culture and language, not the other way round. Thats why yugoslavs speak slavic, not iranian.
As for you saying that yugoslavs are not very slavic, your wrong. If you bothered to read my discussion you would understand. Yes, they have less slavic genes. THis is because they intermixed with the Illyrians. But again it was the SLAVIC language and culture that was kept, because , again, the slavs conquered the Illyrians. There is no genetic influence of Iranians in modern Yugoslavs. THis has been shown. Thats why the Serboi and Chrobat theory is largely unsupported
They are slavic culture, religion and language. I know i have lived there !
To summarise, there is very little Iranian influence in the Balkans. You just cannot make this claim. Just because the Vandals were once in North Africa , can u now say that north Africa is partly German ??.
And yes, Yugoslavs are different to Ukraians and other slavs. But Ukranians are different to Poles or Russians. That's why they are different countries. SLavs are not all the same.
SO i do not doubt that there were some iranian people that made it to the balkans, but my point is that there contribution to culture is probably small, if any. Because they were assimilated or coquered by the slavs; so their own culture is lost very quickly, over one or two generations. THEY ADOPTED SLAVIC CULTURE and WAY OF LIFE. Not the other way around. What little imprints they did leave would be diluted over 1.5 thousand years
The Samartians have been reported to move into Dacia (Romania). Yet they never crossed into Illyria (modern - day Yugoslavia). Most accounts suggest they were wiped out by the Gothic incursions.
Even if any actually were present in ugoslavia (unlikely), one would definitely be stretching it to classify Yugoslavs as even partially Iranian. As i said the bulk of the 'ancestral contribution' is Slavic. The balkans is a very mixed place, as every one knows. It would be very hard to ascertain just how prevalent and lasting the influence of Iranian tribes were. But i doubt that it would be very big ( as they had so many other mixes as well).
As is said before, theories like you presented (Samartian in Balkans) are merely theories, which are unfortunately more likely to be incorrect than correct. They are based on accoutns from old Roman historians. These are often incorrect or misinterpreted, as the Roman historians tended to call the same one tribe more than one name, or different tribes the same name, and they classed tribes more according to where they inhabited rather than according to any real cultural or ethnic division.
Some contemporary linguists hypothesise that certain words, especially in Croatian, for king and nobels etc are said to stem from iranian (eg Zupan). But this is again debatable, as there are just too many different theories in linguistics.
The most convincing evidence against the Iranian theory is DNA analysis. THis shows that there is no Iranian contribution to modern day southern slavs. ie Iranians are as closely related to Croats as they are to Swedes, for example. Hxseek 00:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually your take is an oversimplification at best.
The majority of Serbs and croats DNA contribution comes from native people in the Balkans(perhaps from Illyrians). This is haplogroup E3b. Another large component is haplogroup I1b , which is unique to the south slavs. The remaining ones are R1a (20-35%) , which is known as the 'slav gene' by lay circles, but is more correctly the haplotype associated with the Ukranian refugia in the last ice age; and R1b (15% on average) which is common in western europe (perhaps reflecting conrtibutions from the goths and celts).
THe haplotype associated with the alans and sarmatian people is G. The frequency of this allele in the southern slavs is 0%. This is pretty convincing evidence that there is negligible contribution of the iranian people to soutehrn slavs. This is consitent with the historical theories :
a) most of the alans went west, then into africa with the Vandals. Those that remained in eastern europe must have been too numerically small to contribute to any modern day country's make up.
b) the sarmatiana where never in the western balkans. They lived in ukraine, and maybe even went to romania (ie EAST balkans), but not the western balkans.
So one can conclude that the southern slavs are a mixture of people indegenous to the Balkans from over 50, 000 years ago , plus the recent slavs (in AD 600-800s), who imposed their language , way of life; and after accepting christianity from Byzantium, developed the concept of 'christian Slava'. Unfortunately no Iranians to be objectively mentioned.
Ok now you are just making up your on theories and going into pseudo-science
You cannot accurately distinguish nationality between looks, first of all
Secondly you are again mixing up your facts, or maybe you are just not educated enough. You claim that the "slav genes" (haplo R1a) are from Iranians ?? The slav genes are the genes of the original Indo_europeans (The "aryans) who migrated/ invaded Persia. These have been traced back to over 15, 000 years ago. The Sarmatians , Alans, etc came to Europe a lot later, obviously. As i already have mentioned, they unfortunatley left minimal influence in Europe.
Firstly, they were not numerically large enough to have any impact on the gentic composition. Secondly they were not a great enough civilisation to leave any lasting cultural influences either. The alans were barbarians that raided and looted. THey were eventually killed off by Franks and early Slavic kingdoms. Those that survived were assimilated. When this happens they adopt the culture of the europeans. Within a generation or two, their Iranian genes were pretty much lost. The main article even states : most alans went to Africa with the Vandals, whilst " other remnants of the Alans disappeared following Germanic, Hunnic and ultimately Slavic invasions.[18]" The same is said about the Sarmatians. (very little is objectively known about the Sarmatians. Anyone who lived in the area was referred to as Sarmatians. They were not only Iranian stock, but also slavs and balts; the area ere they lived fell to many different other tribes: Bulgars, Khazars, the Rus, Mongols. Sarmatians ceased being a distinct entity at least 2, 000 years ago)
In fact, the situation is OPPOSITE to what you state. The original 'aryan-iranians' were indo-europeans that originated from the Kurgan area, in modern day Ukraine. Some went down to Iran, became the ruling elite, and introduced the Indo-European language to the natives of the persian region. Yet they must have been numerically small as they did not leave much DNA.(the incidence of haplo R1a in modern iran is about 0%)
At the same time, the Indo-European people spread mostly over Eastern europe, spreading the R1a genes, and introducing the proto-indo-european language. The language also reached Western europe as a consequence of 'cultural migration' where the native population of west europe accepted the language in the process of adapting farming techniques from the indo-europeans. SO the genes were largely confined to eastern europe. (refer to Indo-European article)
So given the geographical origin of the aryans, and the distribution of their genes, it can be seen that they are foremost the ancestors of modern slavs. A small group of them went to persia to rule over the local persians.
So, should i be so bold to say that Iranians were influenced by Slavs? Obviously not, that would be almost as ridiculous as some of the things some of you write in this discussion
It merely means that the ancient Aryan_iranians and anceint slavs had common ancestors 15, 000 ago. Some went into Persia and mixed in with the Elamites, then later Turks, Mongols and Arabs, whilst the ones that stayed in Eastern europe mixed in amongst themselves and the native (hunter-gatherer) Europeans. Yes some Iranian tribes then later did come back north to europe, but they were merely a loose confederation of nomadic horsemen that did not leave much, if any, lasting influence in Europe. This is a fact.
I would like to hear if you have any evidence to show to the contrary
1. You mentioned DNA. I have shown numerous times that this is wrong
2. Any linguistic evidence?
3. Anyone in europe practice Zoroastrinism or similar such things?
Why do you insist on talkin crap? Just accept that my intelligence is superior to yours.
If you want to debate, first of all learn how to speak english, then secondly go and read a history book so you know some real facts rather than making non-sense conclusions.
All you have to do is read my argument, it makes perfect sense.
Your intentions are good, but i'm afraid you are the one that is confused.
If the genes in the slavs are partly from ancient Iranians (which is what you say), then why is there NO SIMILARITIES BETWEEN MODERN SLAVS AND MODERN IRANIANS. THAT IS MY POINT. There should be some genetic ties if modern slavs are partly descended from ancient Iranians, as modern Iranians obviously are. BUT THE DNA SIMILARITIES BETWEEN SLAVS AND IRANIANS ARE NO MORE CLOSER THAN IRANIANS AND SWEDES, ITALIANS OR ENGLISH.
THE ONLY PROVEN RELATION BETWEEN SLAVS, INCLUDING SOUTH SLAVS, AND IRANIANS (MODERN OR ANCIENT) IS THE INDO-EUROPEAN PEOPLES THAT LIVED IN UKRAINE. MOST STAYED IN EASTERN EUROPE, BUT SOME WENT TO RULE IN THE PERSIAN AREA (AND ARE KNOWN AS THE ARYAN IRANIANS, TO DISTINGUISH THEM FROM THE NATIVE ELAMITES AND OTHER SEMITIC PEOPLE THAT LIVED IN THE AREA).
There was no established or longterm, or even any residual settlement by anceint Iranians in the Balkans (ie Yugoslavia). Even scythia minor's western-most extent was to romania and hungary. This area is the carpathian, not balkans.
I am afraid a lot of what you say is merely your own personal, misinformed opinion. Sorry,
I agree with some of what is said. THe ancient 'Aryan' Iranians, as opposed to native Elamo-Dravidians were Indo-European speaking. I never desputed that the ancient Iranian ARE INDO-EUROS
(The IEs started of as a distinct people, but now it merely refers to a linguistic classification. )
But you are saying that Slavs inherited their genes from the ancient Iranians. THis is what i disagree with My point is : The ancient slavs and ancient Iranians both dervied from the original Indo-European people. Iranians didn;t give rise to slavs, nor did iranians come from slavs, but they both came from the IEs. When they split off 3000 or so years ago, they were probably not even distinguishable.
So understand my point , please
Secondly, i disagree with the place of origin of the ancient Iranians. You say they were originally from central asia. Yes, in so far as to say that is where the 'differentiated, into the Iranian sub-branch of IEs. But the origin of the original IEs, which gave rise to all other subbranches was in the pontic steppe, Ukraine area (ie Kurgan) (although still disputed, this is the currently most agreed place)
Thirdly, any linguistic similarities in words between persian and southern -slav are more likely to be due to the fact they are both eastern bracnhes of the IE language. EG the word for god is 'bog', This is not only in yugo-slav, but virtually all other slavic languages. ANd as for comparing culture between the two, it is flawed practice as it can be subjective. It would be hard, in the end to make comparisons these days because of the fact that both iranian descendents and slavs have been subsequently influenced by other events/ people, eg Greeks/latin/germans/ christianity for slavs, versus Turkish/mongol/arabic/islam for most persians. I afraid most people view comparitive linguistics and cultural comparisons a PSEUDO-science !
And i re-iterate i have nothing against Iranians. But i do object to arguments which make false assumtions and lead to incorrect conclusions.
OK i agreee with the last paragraph only.
I don;t know who was writing the previous paragraphs, but they were making claims that ancient iranians lived in the balkans and/or modern day slavs are someho descended from these people.
Although I would clarify that the Iranian origin of H'ravat, while a major theory, is not quite 'widely accepted' . It is a theory only (at this stage).
Secondly be careful with your wording. IF indeed 'croat' is of iranian origing, then it is the NAME that is of iranian origin. But their 'national identity' is NOT of iranian origin.
Otherwise i found the Iranian peoples article very interesting
Why all the argument and fighting? Their own experts scholars and geneticist will tell you that Croats are of Iranic origin, end of discussion.
Cyrus111 ( talk) 11:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Being of Pakistani Baloch descent I am uncomfartable with the useage of the word "Iranian" to label Baloch.Iran is simply a modern-day country as is Afghanistan.Would it be correct to label Tajiks or Uzbeks an "Afghan people?" when Uzbeks and Tajiks existed well before 1747 (the year of Afghanistan's creation).Or to call the peopple of central Asia a "soviet people"? No.This is not a term accepted by everyone.it is simply wrong.- Vmrgrsergr 19:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Pejman47 is right.The trouble is that this article not always tries to distinguish between linguistic terms, racial ideas and other things. This is probably where Vmrgrsergr's unease comes from. Refdoc 10:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I actually do not agree with you here, grandmaster. The way Azeris are included in the article is certainly better than either total non-inclusion or simply inclusion into the list as was done before. I am sure that the current paragraph can be improved upon, but it is fair, correct and NPOV to mention Azeris at this point with the various caveats added - as already done to some degree. Refdoc 14:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree, Babak is right, Azeris should be on the list, as the list clearly says that its for people of Iranian descent. Azeris are a people of Iranian descent, this is acknowledged in the scholarly community. Hajji Piruz 18:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
No, Azeris should not be included in the list. A small note with reference to some sources is enough. After all, the language replacement theory is accepted by all mainstream scholars. I agree with Grandmaster that Azeris are an Turkic people by definion, although his claim that Azeris have an actual East Asian Turkic origin is most certainly wrong. Also, Uzbeks are not an Iranian people. Both Azeris and Uzbeks are linguistically a Turkic people. Genetically, Azeris and Uzbeks share a common origin with Iranian peoples, but the Iranian peoples themselvs have an ancient origin which predeominantly not Indo-European. Although I agree with you that Azeris have neither cultural nor genetical ties with actual Turkic peoples, they are still a Turkic people by modern definition. This is an FA-status article. With claims such as ``Uzbeks are an Iranian people´´ you riun the good quality of the article.
see this link on the ancestors of uzbeks and Tajiks
http://sogdiana.blogspot.com/2005/11/what-is-sogdiana.html
Babakexorramdin
20:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This FA article is not about descent, its about linguistic ties. The article is not even about cultural ties. If the article were about descent and pure genetics, then all the so-called Iranian peoples except for some isolated Tajik families in the Pamir mountains would have been removed, because modern Iranian speakers are not genetical descendants of ancient Iranians, but descendants of Non-Iranian peoples who had adopted Iranian languages after the Aryan invasion (see section about genetics). Everyone knows that Azeris are genetically related to Iranian speakers and that less than 1000 years ago their ancestors were still speakers of Iranian languages. But this is totally irrelevant, because this article is about linguistiuc classifications, and thus Azeris are a Turkic people. They are not Turks in terms of genetics and historical accounts, but they are Turkics in terms of language and recent post-Islamic history. Uzbeks are much more Turks than Azeris. Depending on the geographic location, certain Uzbeks are descendants of Turkic and Mongol invaders, others are heavily mixed with the ancient Iranian population, and others are descendants of ancient Iranians who adopted a Turkic language. Claiming that Uzbeks are in any way Iranian is totally baseless and pseudo-scientific. Uzbeks are also a Turkic people, and they can even trace their origins back to the Turkic and Mongol invaders. I have no idea why they are included in the list. You source is not a scientific source, but a blog. I also reinserted the Hazaras into the article, who are considered an Iranian people by all mainstream historians. And since you firmly believe that physical looks and pure genetics define ethnicity, could you please explain to me why these Hazara boys are supposed to be categorized as non-Iranian while these Uzbeks are claimed to be Iranians?!
About the picture: It seems that you have never seen a Hazara; those children are either not Hazars or are mixed. Although it is true that Hazaras are mixed with Iranian elements, but they keep an awareness of being Asiatic and non-Iranians, while the Uzbek culture glorifies its Iranian elemnts. Babakexorramdin 20:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that you do not know any Hazaras. You talk about Hazaras, although you have never heared the names Sayyid Ismail Balkhi, Sayyid Sultan Shah Homam, or Abdul Khaliq. If you do know these names, which are totally essential to understand the collective identity of the Hazaras, then please illuminate us with your knowledge! What you are doing is pseudo-scientific nonsense. You talk about descent, but when it comes to Iranians, you ignore the many genetical proves that Iranians themselvs are not Iranians, but only speakers of Iranian languages who adopted these languages in an elite-dominance process - exactly the same way modern Turks adopted Turkic languages. Hazaras are aware of their Mongolian descent, beucase people like you think of them as a foreign people. In reality, you would not even see the difference between an educated Hazara or Tehrani "Persian" (and everyone knows that Tehranis are not realy Persians). When Khodadad Azizi scored for the Iranian national football team in the '98 world-cup games, noone dared about his "Non-Iranian descent". And now you claim that these people who speak an Iranian language, have an Iranian culture, and are among the most zealous supporters of Pan-Iranian movements (you should at least once read the works of Sultan Shah Homam) are not an Iranian people, and at the same time want to make us believe that Turkic-speaking Azeris are Iranics?! Maybe you should listen to this Hazara, since you seem to have no idea about who the Hazaras are. I am tired of editting the article, and it also seems to me that your only aim is to ruin the FA status of this article. Now you even try to prove your non-scientific claims by quoting Islam Karimov, a known Pan-Turkist and anti-Iranian tyrant. I have contacted admins to deal with the issue, since you have once again removed the tag without providing accurate sources.
Someone (I presume it was Babakexorramdin) removed the fact tag for the claim that Azerbaijanis sometimes included as Iranian people, but provided no references. Can I see a source that includes Azerbaijanis as Iranian people? If there’s no such source, the claim should be removed. Iranian, Turkic, Slavic, etc are linguistic denominations, and Azerbaijanis are not Iranian people, because they do not speak an Iranian language. Please stop adding inaccurate info or support it with reliable sources. -- Grandmaster 05:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I rolled the article back to Raystorm's version, since inclusion of Azeris and Uzbeks into the list of Iranian people and other similar claims are original research. Please cite your sources if you disagree. -- Grandmaster 07:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I did not see any sources whatsoever. Ethnicity is not defined by genes, it is defined by the language. Azerbaijanis and Uzbeks speak Turkic languages, therefore they are Turkic people. Simple as that. See Britannica, it says that Azeris are Turkic people, not Iranian. Now you show me a source that says that Azeris are Iranian people. Grandmaster 18:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The term is used in contrast to race, which refers to a classification of physical and genetic traits perceived as common to certain groups
If you mean this:
Islam Karimov the Uzbekistani president stressing the common origins of Uzbeks and Tajiks has said: Tajiks and Uzbeks are one nation, which speaks two languages!.
it is not a scholarly reference. If George Bush said that Americans and Mexicans were one nation, which speaks two languages, would you use it as a reference for the article on the origin of Mexican and Latin people? Political declarations are not scholarly sources on ethnic origins. -- Grandmaster 10:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The last sentence quoting Gimbutas in the roots section is:
"the Process of Indo-Europeanization was a cultural, not a physical transformation. It must be understood as a military victory in terms of imposing a new administrative system, language and religion upon the indigenous groups."
THis was included with the context of Iranian (ie IRan proper) people lacking R1a haplotype, whereas others do.
Her conclusion was that the indo-european spread was a cultural one, rather than physical.
I propose that her conclusion is only half right. If in fact R1a is the haplotype of Indo-europeans, then obviously there must have been at least some physical spread of genes by the IEs, as it is found from europe to areas in central asia.
The rest of the spread must have been cultural / linguistic replacement as people in western europe and Iran have low levels of R1a.
For more information see:
Askarov, A. & B.Ahmadov, O'zbek Xalqning Kilib Chiqishi Torixi. O'zbekiston Ovozi, 20 Januray 1994.
Also have a look at:
see this link on the ancestors of uzbeks and Tajiks
http://sogdiana.blogspot.com/2005/11/what-is-sogdiana.html
If you disregard two uzbek academicians in one of the leading Uzbekistani newspapers (of course they reported on their previous works elsewhere), then you disrespect the academic reasoning anyway. One more time we are not speaking on language. So stop reapeting yourself. Babakexorramdin 14:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Azeris are of Iranian descent, not "considered by some" (or something like that). Hajji Piruz 17:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
WHY has this Panturkist activists deleted my source? Moreover I do not think that Azeris and Uzbeks share the same group as South Slavs. Iranianness of Azeris is a FACT, Partial iranness of Uzbeks is also a fact. While Iranianess of Yugoslavs remain problematic. Babakexorramdin 18:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
If you want to know what is happening on Iranian related articles on Wikipedia, please take alook at User: Tajik's discussion page. He was falsely accused on being several Pan-Turkist admins for using sockpuppets. These few admins who wanted to get rid of him and misused their admin powers. Please read his story here. -- Behnam 23:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
For fuck's sake Babakexorramdin. Yugoslavs's aren't Iranian , for the last time. Not even 0.000000001 %. Its not 'problematic'. Its basic fact, history and commensense.
I think you don't know what you write. Maybe you have dementia. I quote your 2nd line in this paragraph "Iranianness of Azeris is a FACT, Partial iranness of Uzbeks is also a fact. While Iranianess of Yugoslavs remain problematic. 60.240.30.90 04:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
you make no sense. What do you mean by 'you type of guys'? All you do is cry because people don;t buy into your absurd theories. Here's my signature: Hxseeker 14:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
To whom it may conceren
I am really tired of editing and get undone and again. I do not like this wars. I brought you sourses, and exactly said what are the criteria which apply to this categorization. yet I found it very insulting that e.g. Tombseye undones my edits neglecting all sources and evidences and saying that they are not Iranian peoples. This is wandering in circles. I do believe that some people here at wikipedia have a political goial, are very anti-Iranian and use wikipedia as a mean to spread their pseudo-scientific and propagand against Iranians. See for example the discussion on Brenda Shaffer. Therefore I regard it as useless to engage anymore in editions. And I propose all Iranians retreat out of protest from Wikipedia. Babakexorramdin 15:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I noticed it said:
"According to a recent study, the ancestors of the Kurds were from an old Mediterranean substratum, i.e. Hurrian and Hittite groups. According to this study the Aryan ancestry of the Kurds and other Iranian-speaking populations in Anatolia is not supported by genetic analyses.[42]"
Does that mean that the Kurds of Anatolia(Turkey) are not of Aryan decent, while the ones in Iran remain of Aryan decent?
The number of Shia and sunni in the Iranian ethnic groups are equally distributed. Lets see
at least some 48 mln in Iran, remeber that half of the Kurds in Iran are Shia! We count Farsiwan and Hazaras of Afghanistan as some 25% of afghanistan this makes about 6 mln (at the least case).
Some 8 million in Turkey (the Turkic-speaking groups not counted. At least 4 mln Zazas (at least case) and at least the same number of Alevis among the Kurmanji Kurds.
Nearly one milion Pamiris in Tajikistan, Afghanistan and China.
there are also Shia kurds in rep. Azerbaijan, Iraq, Shia Tajiks in Uzbekistan, Shia tats in rep. Azerbaijan, and Russia, and Lak and Persians in iraq and Persian Gulf countries. We add some 3 millions (especially for the last groups).
about 65 mln (if we do not include to this number the Iranian but Turkicspeaking groups such as Azeris, and Qashqais)
Now we count Sunnis
lets say all Sunnis of Iran (9%) are Iranian which they are not! It makes 6 mln.
some 70% of Afghanistan this makes 14 mlin
Tajiks in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan make some additional 6 mln (this number also includes the number of Persian Speaking Uzbeks, who are not registered as Tajiks) Lets imagine that exist 35 milion Sunni Moslem speakers of Iranian languages in pakistan (which seems very unlikely).
And lets assume that there are 30 mln Kurds of which 80% are Sunni (the rest are either Shia/Alevi or Yezidi) this makes 20 mln.
about 75 mln
and then there are tiny minorities of Zoroastrian, Christian, Bahai and Jews.
If we add the number of Azeris, this will make some 91 mln Shiites vers 75 mln Sunnis.
therefore I think it is the best statemnet " the numbers of Sunni and Shia among the Iranian peoples are equally distributed." -- Babakexorramdin 14:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Georgian Orthodox Church is part of Orthodox Cherch, not a separate branch.
Someone shoulkd check the recent edits by Hxseek. They are dubious,. He says for example that there were no such a people as Bosniak prior to the 17th century. So what? There is such a people now. Ethnic groups born and die. Secondly he says that their names are Iranian, while the theories speak on their origins and not on their names, those talks on their names follow only after the assumption of their (partial) Iranic origins. -- Babakexorramdin 22:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Babekex.... The original version was dubious. I just helped the article in good faith to make it more scientific. The mainstream theory connecting Croats and Serbs to Iranic peoples (ie Anceint Iranic peoples in the way of Sarmatians) is the linguistic -naming of the tribes, as i already outlined in the article. Certainly most scholars concluded that even if it was true that the Serbs and Croats were originally Sarmatian tribes, they were already Slavicised by the time they reached the Balkans. There they mixed with more Slavs and Illyrians. So to say that modern Serbs and Croats are even partially descended from Iranian peoples is a bit of a stretch. As for the Bosnians, no one denies that they exist now. All I was stating is that there was no Bosniak tribe back in the migration era (ie back in the 600s), so the discussion about the Iranian influence on peoples in late antiquity and early dark ages time does not directly concern them (although indirectly one may state they too may be partly descended from Iranian tribes because in essense Bosniaks are merely Muslimized Croats and Serbs). Hxseek 11:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Babe.. Im sorry to say, but your knowledge of history is very fundamental. The Bogomils were a heretic religious sect, nothing to do with the origins of Bosniaks. Its just that Bogomilism might have been quite prevalent in Bosnia in the 1000s.
I have noted your previous discussions with people, accusing them of racism and 'unscientific behaviour' because they edited your additions. I suggest that you (1) improve your English (2) acquaint yourself with facts a bit further, then you might not get edited so much. Cheers Hxseek 00:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Hxseek, stop adding nonsense. You want to edit Sarmatism, Scythians#Descent-claims and Theories on the origin of Croats, but stop adding your stuff to this article. dab (𒁳) 11:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
No. As i said, i have made no put in any of the above three sections you refer to. Whether they should be removed or not- I won;t comment becuase I have no active interest in Sarmatism et al. And i totally agree it is impossible to delineate into whom the Sctyhians merged with, or provided partial ancestry to. My feeling is that some people wish to actively find proofs of historical continuity between great ancient civilisations and their compartitively mediocre modern ones. Hxseek 01:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I have been reading all the topics and responses on this post and have to say, I am fascinated. Being a self-described anthropology nut, I have (within the last 6 years) really tried to research the roots of Europeans and have hit more than one brick wall.. Why? the answer is an intuitively obvious one; EUROPEANS ARE VERY MIXED. I have heard every designation for "types" of europeans (i.e. Carlton Coon's "alpine" "Nordic" "Dinaric" "Mediterranean"-which in Coons world would include some physical types reaching from Italy to Iran) and other creative anthropologists. To get to the point, this led me to be interested in the origins of those (also very mixed)living in the fertile cresent and the large areas surrounding it. I began getting irritated and thinking about the "scientific" classification of peoples. Is it really fair for those people (streching from the Isles of Britain, to Iran and beyond) as "caucasian?" I know the history behind the classification, but it is both fallable and based more on conjuncture than any logic. I know many in India feel cheated; their DNA and features show a vast amount of mixing from many peoples. Do Iranians-both as a "Persian" group and as a nation-feel the same way? How fair is it that an Iranian (living in the U.S. particularly) must mark the "White" race box, when asked for his or her ethnicity. I am a White American, and though I recognize that Europeans (including British and Germanic types) have roots from "Cro-Magnon" Europeans, Middle-easterners (although sometimes disputed may have arrived in Europe with Agriculture) and east-asian physical types, they should be allowed to check a box that is more in line-or better describes them. The term "White" (as a census tool) is rediculous and denotes a fair-skinned person. I don't think many people (even scientists) take into account the way this must make people feel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.247.210.100 ( talk) 05:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
we can have a discssion of historical "Slavicisation" or "Turkisation" of Iranian peoples. The "List of Iranian peoples" section is not the proper place for that.
dab
(𒁳)
13:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
With all due respectwhat dbachmann did should not be allowed. he deleted a whole well-sourced section. This asrticle is about Irnian desecnt and not language. Azeris and to some extent Uzbeks)if meant Sarts' are of Iranian descent. The south Slavic speakers are somehow a different story. Although he has a point if he adds tatars here. Tatars do have Iranian blood but so do eastern slavs of Ukraine and southern Russia. Scythian tribes were (one of ) their ancestors. -- Babakexorramdin 08:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Babakexorramdin, the removal by Dbachmann may not have been appropriate in your opinion, however it was not well sourced, well written (it was in a mini-list) or even on topic. This article intends to be primarily about group of people with a common language:
“ | There are an estimated 150 million native speakers of Iranian languages. | ” |
“ | It is largely through linguistic similarities that the Iranian peoples have been linked, as many non-Iranian peoples have adopted Iranian languages and cultures. | ” |
If you think the deleted content needs to be here, or could be moved somewhere else, please do so without getting annoyed, and please stop being uncivil like the above comment to Grandmaster. John Vandenberg 05:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
,,
Well, rather than debating in circles here, the point remains that there is no easy to apply criteria aside from language. I'm fairly certain I am not being biased since Khoikhoi and I were the primary people who made it a featured article and I tried to give an overview not just of the larger Iranian speaking groups like the Persians, Pashtuns and Kurds but also those that vanished etc. in Eurasian steppes. The inclusion of peripheral groups is simply too problematic and I am not disputing that things like Nowruz are Iranian in origin, but since other groups also celebrate it, it's not a reliable criteria either. Nor is dress or even customs and clearly religion isn't either. In addition, before we get into this further, ancestry is itself too tangled in the regions where Iranian peoples reside to make any uniform sense. Obviously, neighbors are related in some capacity and so again we are left with the only indicator that really works, language usage. The intention should be not to simply group people but to explain the origins of a group and their place in history and why they are considered, in some way and in this case largely through language, linked. Since there are no major sources that place non-Iranian speaking groups within the Iranian peoples we are again left with what makes sense, language as the main criteria of inclusion. Tombseye 14:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
It can get very complicated, and postulative, indeed if we start guestimating which modern nations have some minor part of Iranic descendence. An analogy would be to drum on about Spaniards might have ,say, 2% Germanic blood (because of the Visigoths) hence are part German, or -even more strongly- would could classify Romanians and Hungarians as partly slavic, becuase the Slavs provided a large substrate of what now constitutes the mentioned modern nations. To be objective we must somehow draw a line. lanuage, as postulated by some is one way, but clearly this has limiations as language does not equate with genetic ethnic origins. WHile it is interesting to theorize, standards must be met, and we cannot turn the article into a philosophical debate. Hxseek 10:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
We actually have gone over this issue before, but to reiterate, the ethnic group infobox implies that this is a single ethnic group. What's more the figures appear to be unverified as ALL of Iran is included as part of the Iranian peoples (?!) which seems rather biased. In addition, saying that the Iranian peoples MOSTLY speak Persian is inaccurate as the other Iranian languages combined outnumber Persian speakers (Pashtuns, Kurds, Baluchis, Ossetians, etc.). This does not mean that fixing these problems means we can include the infobox though. When this article was made into a featured article there was no infobox because we decided, through consensus, that the Iranian peoples are not an ethnic group, but a series of groups who speak related languages and, to varying degrees have some common historical currents and cultural traits (though by no means everyone of course). Thus, the infobox is not a viable OR useful option here. Tombseye 19:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
All Iranians count them as an Iranian people, inside and outside of Iran, its only pan-turks who say that. Though that section is not refering to lanuage and instead towards ethnicity, so why can't be add Azeris to the list, it offends me as an Azeri not to called Iranian.
Why are those pictures being edited? You say it "violates copyright laws and is not allowed either." Then why does ever other ethnicity page have a picture section yet the Iranian People page is left without one? These pictures have been sourced are accepted into Wikipedia, so why are they not allowed to be used just like in every other Wikipedia ethnicity page? -- Yami Sasha ( talk) 21:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
On the infobox it reads "150 to 250 million". Being off by 100,000 million is quite ridiculous. Also these numbers aren't sourced. Improvement is necesary in these areas. -- Cat chi? 15:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
CIA Factbook gives a figure of about 15 million for the Kurds. other estimates vary. There is no evidences that these numbers include the number of Zaza (estimated 2-4 Million people). In addition it can be guessed that some Kurds in major Urban centres are not counted Wether or not they identify themselves as Kurd or Turk. To that number should be added the number of Migrants from Iran, Iraq and Syria (Kurds and persians etc...), so the estimates between 14 and 19 million was a fair estimate -though Kurdish nationalists give too often higher numbers- , in the context of lacking ethnic censuses in Turkey and uncertainty about the number of (often illegal) migrants. -- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 12:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
As I predicted the infobox has created problems. even with references people will just keep changing t because they don't agree with. we're better without it. people can look up the individual groups and their population figures anyway. no point really. Tombseye ( talk) 20:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The thing is why these "problems" always affect Iranian articles? Not many other cultural/national groups other than Iranians encounter so much "problems" -- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 22:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The Hazaras and "Aimaq" are an Iranian people by definition. They speak Iranian languages (in this case: various dialects of Persian) and live within other Iranian-speaking communities since the 13th century AD. While genetic research attests that they are a mix of East Eurasian ("Mongoloid") and West Eurasian ("Caucasoid") peoples, they are still defined as an Iranian people.
Please note that the Turks of Turkey are also defined as a "Turkic people" although they are genetically not related to Central Asian Turkic or Altaic speakers.
The version proposed by Cyrus11 is factually wrong and contains many mistakes.
My mistake I thought Ishkashemis are Ishkashemis and Tajiks are Tajiks...
The Iranian population as a whole was tested, where did it say that?
And also did they actually test 35 million people (males) ? Not a bad job at all...
Everything in the study is may or perhaps or appears, as it says in the study..? S.wells claims he is a branch at the very top in one video, but in another intervju he reveals that he is a r1b dec. He should know better when M45, defined by the marker M3, may be as little as 2,000 years old. Besides your study is from 2001, the study from 2004 reveals much higher r1a1 in Tehran and Isfahan, that is central Iran which is still higher than all Europe excluding east. The study made in Western Iran:
The Iranians sampled here (from the western part of the country) appear to be more similar genetically to Afro-Asiatic-speaking Middle Eastern .
Is it strange whole of West Iran have little gen infl.from r1a1 Indo-Iranians when it´s not even populated by Persians? Iran is not a homogenous country.
Intriguingly haplogroup K born in Iran are the patrilineal ancestors of most of the people living in the Northern Hemisphere, including most Europeans, Asians and Native Americans. The Iranians display considerable haplogroup diversity reinforcing the notion of Persia as a venue for human disseminations (spreading north, east, south and west). Cyrus111 ( talk) 22:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
And why was the source from Marija G erased and a "CN installed" when it clearly states in K. Kuriakis book that she states: The Process of Indo-Europeanization was a cultural, not a physical transformation. It must be understood as a military victory in terms of imposing a new administrative system, language and religion upon the indigenous groups... Maybe he didn´t read it? And explain your meaning of "Tajik Proper"? The Tajik and Persians are Iranic people from Proto-Indo-Iranian times and they are a mix of eachohter from after the Islamic conquest as well read Tajik article and the sources, 79% of Tajikistan are ethnic Tajiks just like 51% of Iran are Persians. I agree its now wrong cause the sources now used are older from 2001 rather than those from 2004 that are more accurate which I used. And where in the 2006 study [11] does it say about language replacement? And also here is the source of R1a1 proper - O - [12]
An English speking person would have a hard time understanding German, this is not the case of Tajik and Farsi speakers, or Dari for that matter. So your example is somewhat off. The speakers of these Iranian languages were part of one nation for a long period of time and are a mix of eachother there, did you bother to read Tajik article and sources?
And also, In the words of Richard Nelson Frye: Many times I have emphasized that the present peoples of Central Asia, have one culture, one religion, one set of social values. Cyrus111 ( talk) 20:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
And here is the part about "language replacement":
You are still using the older study from 2001 because this seems to benefit some sort of agenda for you? Why not use the more recent report where the studies have advanced and are more accurate? Cyrus111 ( talk) 17:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
If you even bother to read the article you will see the changes made that will suit you better and if you bother to read the newer sources you will see the newer results of Nasidze in Tehran and Isfahan. And if you bother to read Karlos. K book as I have outsourced, you will see Marija G:s statement. And again an English speaking person would have a hard time understanding German, this is not the case of Tajik and Farsi speakers, or Dari for that matter. Cyrus111 ( talk) 14:37, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
My claim of early Indo-european mongoloid look is not how you have interpreted it, I was saying they were Eurasian types, read this: [14]
"The assumption that the Indo-Europeans were blue-eyed found some currency when northern Europe was regarded as the original Proto-Indo-European homeland, but placing the homeland in Southwest Asia changes the physical type that must be assumed.
Mongoloid is a very broad def. just like cauc. example, both finnish and Dravids are cauc. this does not mean they resemble eachother, the same with Mongoloid. and NG Illustrated mongoloidic people in ass. with r1a1. should they have showed Bushmen? The fact is r1a1 is not or should not be ass. with any type of look. Why? see the Altaic, they are mongoloidic yet they also have the r1a1 that is also found among Dravidians and Indians Russians and Persians who display var. I am not saying that the altaic people were the branch of Indoeuropeans that went to Persia or India, I am saying that r1a1 carrying people have diversity in appearence. And I was not adding my POV for any specific reason it was a discussion in the discpage.
And here is the qoute from the source that you claim dont show up [15] PAGE 277
And now I even claim that Pasthuns have frequency of R1a1 yes I do, and yes they do Both in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and here is the source that I didn´t present. [16]
And you are still using Spencers older 2001 report, here is the newer one [17]
Please do not revert to that wrong version again
Your current version lacks the data presented giving it a more narrower view.. Cyrus111 ( talk) 12:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The newer report is from Nasidze and its not limited to cauc. it covers the frequency of r1a1 in Tehran and Isfahan something the older study dont. Forget S.Wells he has not been to Iran for a long time use the newer study from Dr. Nasidze Cyrus111 ( talk) 18:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Cyrus, stop pushing this childish "Aryan" nonsense, or you'll just succeed in getting the article de-featured. This is not the place to discuss
Indo-European origins, nor is it the place to discuss
Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA), nor any other haplogroup, in any detail.
dab
(𒁳)
11:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
the classificatoion shows some mistakes: Sariqoli are the socalled Tajiks of China, they along with Shughni, Wakhi, Muni, Yazgulemi and other subdivision form the Pamiri people. this should be fixed-- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 09:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
R1 is an Indo-European Marker. It gave rise to R1a (West European), r1a1 (scythian), and R1b (Turkic/European) groups. (To postulate that R1a1 and R1 are very different bio-groups, indicates a lack of understanding of these typse of studies.)
From: Kivilsid,2003
"Two tribal groups from southern India—the Chenchus and Koyas—were analyzed for variation in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), the Y chromosome, and one autosomal locus and were compared with six caste groups from different parts of India, as well as with western and central Asians. In mtDNA phylogenetic analyses, the Chenchus and Koyas coalesce at Indian-specific branches of haplogroups M and N that cover populations of different social rank from all over the subcontinent. Coalescence times suggest early late Pleistocene settlement of southern Asia and suggest that there has not been total replacement of these settlers by later migrations. H, L, and R2 are the major Indian Y-chromosomal haplogroups that occur both in castes and in tribal populations and are rarely found outside the subcontinent. Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup. Haplotype frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups, from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. The phylogeography of the primal mtDNA and Y-chromosome founders suggests that these southern Asian Pleistocene coastal settlers from Africa would have provided the inocula for the subsequent differentiation of the distinctive eastern and western Eurasian gene pools."
So R1 , R1a, were likely already present in Iranian populations. R1a1 frequency in Ukraine, reflects emmigrating (R1a) Iranian Scythian tribes. Later, the R1a1 scythians could have re-settled on the plateau and left some genetic imprint on Eastern Iranians - we know from history the nomadic scythians tribes re-entered the plateau at some later point. Alternatively, but definetely less likely (because R1a1 diversity is higher in Ukraine), R1a1 may have been present in small percentages of the Eastern Iranian population, who left at some point, and founded a population of Scythians in the area of modern Ukraine. This scenario can explain higher diversity of R1a1 in Ukraine, as a (more or less) pure population of R1a1's can grow/diversify faster.
All of this makes perfect sense, as the cold adapted Caucasoid group, Haplogroup R (evolving in central asia), may have migrated south to the Iranian plateau and the surrounding area, where the land was habitable. At some later point, these R1 derived "Aryan" tribes scattered NW into the baltic (R1a or, less likely, as R1a1), and west into Europe (R1b via Turkey).
The large frequencies of certain haplogroups (R1a, R1b) in Europe do not mean as much as many would like to think. One has to understand that Europe and central asia were largely uninhabitable. High frequencies, without accompanied diversity, usually just suggests a founders effect. From an examination of the pooled diversity and geographic spread of sister clades, Iran and it's surrounding area seems more likely as an IE homeland. Asides, from the Basques (Who are ironically, products of J derived Iranians @ 10,000 ybp), Europeans are a relatively recent group of people. This isn't to say paleolithic genes are not represented in modern day europeans, but it's safe to assume that 70-80% of europes genes are neolithic.
They should rethink the notion that Basques (R1b) aren't genetically similar to IE's. The same with Ashkanzai Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zadeh79 ( talk • contribs) 21:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Zadeh79 ( talk) 21:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)R1 is an Indo-European Marker. It gave rise to R1a (West European), r1a1 (scythian), and R1b (Turkic/European) groups. (To postulate that R1a1 and R1 are very different bio-groups, indicates a lack of understanding of these typse of studies.)
From: Kivilsid,2003
"Two tribal groups from southern India—the Chenchus and Koyas—were analyzed for variation in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), the Y chromosome, and one autosomal locus and were compared with six caste groups from different parts of India, as well as with western and central Asians. In mtDNA phylogenetic analyses, the Chenchus and Koyas coalesce at Indian-specific branches of haplogroups M and N that cover populations of different social rank from all over the subcontinent. Coalescence times suggest early late Pleistocene settlement of southern Asia and suggest that there has not been total replacement of these settlers by later migrations. H, L, and R2 are the major Indian Y-chromosomal haplogroups that occur both in castes and in tribal populations and are rarely found outside the subcontinent. Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup. Haplotype frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups, from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. The phylogeography of the primal mtDNA and Y-chromosome founders suggests that these southern Asian Pleistocene coastal settlers from Africa would have provided the inocula for the subsequent differentiation of the distinctive eastern and western Eurasian gene pools."
From: M. Regueiro (2006)
"From the disparate M198 frequencies observed
for the north and south of Iran, it is possible to envision a
movement southward towards India where the lineage
may have had an influence on the populations south of the
Iranian deserts and where the Dash-e Lut desert would
have played a signifi cant role in preventing the expansion
of this marker to the north of Iran. The lower frequencies
of M198 in the region of Anatolia (11.8% in Greece [27]
and 6.9% in Turkey, with a statistically significant longitudinal
correlation [2] ) and the Caucasus (10% in Georgia,
6% in Armenia and 7% in Azerbaijan) [24] suggests
that population movement was southward towards India
and then westward across the Iranian plateau. In addition,
the detection of rare R1-M173* and R1a-SRY1532 lineages
in Iran at higher frequencies than observed for either
Turkey, Pakistan or India suggests the hypothesis that
geographic origin of haplogroup R may be nearer Persia."
So R1 , R1a, were likely already present in Iranian populations. R1a1 frequency in Ukraine, reflects emmigrating Iranian Scythian tribes.
This makes perfect sense, as the cold adapted Caucasoid group, Haplogroup R (evolving in central asia), may have migrated south during the LGM to the Iranian plateau and the surrounding area, where the land was habitable. At some later point, these R1 derived "Aryan" tribes scattered NW into the baltic (R1a or, less likely, as R1a1), and west into Europe (R1b via Turkey).
The large frequencies of certain haplogroups (R1a, R1b) in Europe do not mean as much as many would like to think. One has to understand that Europe and central asia were largely uninhabitable. High frequencies, without accompanied diversity, usually just suggests a founders effect. From an examination of the pooled diversity and geographic spread of sister clades, and the distribution pattern of R1 and R1a in Iran and it's surrounding area, Iran is a likely candidate as an IE homeland. Asides, from the Basques (Who are ironically, products of J derived Iranians @ 10,000 ybp), Europeans are a relatively recent group of people. This isn't to say paleolithic genes are not represented in modern day europeans, but it's safe to assume that 70-80% of europes genes are neolithic.
They should rethink the notion that Basques (R1b) aren't genetically similar to IE's. The same with Ashkanzai Jews
Why not use some of this research from the Geneticist in the
r1a article since they insist on using Spencers 2001 report where everything in the report is may or perhaps or if so. It doesn´t even include Dr. Nasidzes 2004 report where r1a is covered in Tehran and Isfahan.
Whats to rethink about Ashkenazi Jews? They are Iranian in origin, not necessarily R1a1 Iranian Scythian tribes but being carriers of R2 which is found througout Iran and parts of south Russia .
Among Europeans there are at least two confirmed clusters of R2 individuals among Ashkenazi Jews (This haplogroup is rare among Europeans), which may reflect either an Iranian or a Central Asian (Khazar) origin of a portion of this group. R2 is a Y-chromosome haplogroup characterized by genetic marker M124, and is rarely found outside India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern Central Asia [18]. Cyrus111 ( talk) 14:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Haplogroup M17, also known as R1a1, has proven to be a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker.[53] The highest R1a1 frequencies are detected in the Central Asian populations of Ishkashemi Tajiks (68%) and Pamiri Tajiks (64%), both groups being remnants of the original Eastern Iranian population of the region.[53][54] Apart from these two groups, the eastern parts of the Iranian Highlands generally reveal the highest frequency of R1a1, up to 35%, similar to Northern India[55], making it higher than South and West Europe and Scandinavia, while Western Iran (excluding major cities like Tehran and Isfahan), [56] appears to have had little genetic influence from the R1a1-carrying Indo-Iranians, about 10%, attributed to language replacement through the "elite-dominance" model in a similar manner which occurred in Europe and India.
Just a comment: we cannot say that R1a is an "Indo-Iranian" marker. The paragraph mentions that there is low frequency of the markers in western europe, scandinavia and (erroneously) southern Europe. R1a rates in southern Europe (ie in Southern Slavs vary from 40 to 15%- very significant rates ! In fact, the highest rates of R1a are found in Sorbs and other Slavic peoples such as Ikraininans and Poles. So one may theorize that is is an Indo-European marker, not solely an Indo-Iranian marker. Hxseek ( talk) 06:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Hxseek, this theory is probably right, there's a large possibility. R1a1 haplo group developed in Western Asia 17.000 years ago defined with mutation M17, which separated it from initial R family. Iran was probably a part of the region where this mutation occured. But in Europe it's usually called East-European or more general Indo-European haplo. All those R1a1 bearers in wide areas of EE were definitely migrators from Asia, the nomads many of them. BTW, establishment of Persian Empire resulted with massive migrations of different groups from the Near-East to the north, lately from the north to Europe. Well, it's perhaps the last massive wave of R1a1 to Europe. Today we recognise many of these R1a1 as Slavic speakers, but it doesn't mean that they were Slavs 2.000 years ago. Zenanarh ( talk) 11:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The following paragraph was the first under "Later developments"
That mess is unrepairable. Its jumping from "ancient times" to the 17th century with nary a care for consistency or precision.
"Ancient times" is what? (why do editors use "ancient" anyway?) Makes no sense in a section titled "Later developments", and the para that followed this one is about a 7th century event. Whats "majority"? Why the restriction to southern Iran? Buddhism in "ancient" times in Afghanistan? (no doubt someone meant Bactria/Sogdiana). The "Judaism and
Nestorian
Christianity" is an anachronistic juxtaposition that can't be resolved. Besides, Iraq didn't exist until the 20th century (presumably someone meant Mesopotamia). And Judaism was all over the place, not just in Mesopotamia. And supposedly Ossetians would "later" convert to Christianity -- later than what? "Ancient"? 20th century?
Crazy. So removed. --
Fullstop (
talk)
01:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Somebody should add Kumzari to the demographics section. The code is too complicated for me, I can't figure out how to add them to the list. -- Kurdo777 ( talk) 10:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Some genetic testings of Iranian peoples have revealed many common genes for most of the Iranian peoples, but with numerous exceptions and regional variations.
Wow, I've seen some stupid things written in wikipedia but I can tell you that this one ranks among the stupidest ones. This is almost funny, I mean we're not talking about citing sources here, we're talking about having the slightest clue of what one is talking about. "Revealed many common genes between Iranian peoples?" WTF? Scientifically the sense that this makes is "all Iranian people have evolved from different species living on the same planet". Common genes are "revealed" between different species, not between different people, for crying out loud. One may "reveal" common genes between human and the fruit fly or the zebrafish or some eukaryotic microorganism like yeast. Saying that there are some common genes between Iranian people is only interesting and makes sense in a world where "Iranian people" stands for a group of humans, birds, fish, insects, bacteria etc. And what would it prove in that world? That the group of distant species described as "Iranian people" have all descended from the same planet. Yeah, evolved from the same earthling prokaryotic cell, none of them are aliens. What a great opening line, and what a great supervision of the article. Miskin ( talk) 04:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
And, wow, I just noticed that this is a FA. No comments, great job wikipedia. Miskin ( talk) 04:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted and removed the edits of an IP in this section. First of all, because most of it was POV, and secondly, because many of the attached sources were simply misinterpreted to fit the POV. Tājik ( talk) 18:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
No offense, but that is perhaps one of the worst civilization maps I've ever seen. It's ridiculous how it considers the entire continents of North and South America as "western civilization" as well as Russia and Australia - yet it separates Arab and Persian civilizations and Chinese, Japanese, and Korean civilizations. IMO, this is poor historical knowledge at best. Intranetusa ( talk) 17:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Iranic and part od Turkic peoples belong to the same civilizatiuon (another part is closer to the Mongolian Asiatic realm). Arabs and Iranians do not share the same civilization. It conflates in some areas such as Iraq however. North America is Anglo-saxon but south America is different.-- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 07:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I spent nearly 10 hours editing the genetic part over a week period yet someone managed to undo all my hard work. I looked at various different sources and have attached source for every single one of these changes/claims. My intentions of changing it was to expand the segment and include all possible haplogroups found in various Iranian groups. Here are the main changes and reason why:
1. y-chromosome haplogroup R1a1 is THEORIZED to be Iranian genetic maker. It is based on Kurgan theory, which says that Iranians originated from south of Russia. The main remains in Kurgan Area is from tribe of """"""Scythian""""". However the modern day descendands of Scythians are Ossetians, who are mainly from """"Haplogroup G""", and not R. G is not even close to R. This is a very big flaw in Kurgan theory. Ossetians are originated from southern Russia. Their migration from South east of Russia to Caucus mountain is so recent (due to Mangol Invasion) and is well documented. Furthermore this theory is not supported by linguistic and archeoogical finding. Another problem is that,even assuming Kurgan is the oldest remain of Iranians, how can a language be spread by one specific haplogroup?? I mean were ancient Iranians from a single race?!did they not mixed with any other race? the answer is YES THEY DID MIX WITH OTHER RACES. even in Kurgan Area although the majority of bones have caucasionid structure, there are some that resemble Far-eastern bone structure. Kurgan theory is weak and though not accurate. The only Europeans who appear to have this haplogroups are Slavs. However in old-Europe people, Such as Italians (Romans),Greeks,French, or even Irish/Scotts, who are all anciet Indo-European communities, the proportion is insignificant. some of the very origional peopling of Europe seem to lack such haplogroup. 2. Haplogroup r1a1 is a y-chromosome haplogroup, does it seem reasonable to assume that even if Iranian language was spread around by one specific haplogroup, it was Y-chrom and not mtDNA ? Diagnosing r1a1 is a classic example of sexisim in science.
3. Please check the main article in wikipedia to see the very big short comings of this theory before putting it in Iranian page as origin of "ALL" Iranians. This is a very huge claim. At least if you put it up as an Iranian maker make sure you point out that it is a THEORY, and NOT FACT. I'm not saying that I think R1a1 is or is not Iranian genetic maker, what I'm saying is that it is still not-a-well-supported-theory.
2. so let's imagine that R1a1 is Iranian maker. But what about the rest of us, from central and Western parts of Iranian plateau, and Anatolia??Y-chromosome I, J2 and others appear to be abundant in Kurds, south of Iran and rest. Another thing is that There are many regional exceptions. For example I can't say that Iranians of Iran belong to a single gene pool,such as R1a1, because each city of Iran appears to show differnet dominant haplogroup, although overall they share many common haplogroups. Let's say the frequency of I happening in Tehran is as high as Scandinavia and the Balkans (35%), but it does not mean that a person from south of Iran is from that Haplogroup.
3. I added haplogroup G to genetic section. This is what majority of Ossetians belong to.They are the single direct desendants of Scythians. It is a very important to add this because this haplogroup appear to show up in variety of Middle-eastern and European communities.
4. There was ""NOTHING"" in this section regarding mtDNA of Iranians, and to whom they trace their maternal ancestory. I looked at different studies, but mainly I took it from Spencer Well's study. PLEASE, PLEASE check his work I pretty much copy pasted the main Ideas. The mains Idea in his study is that Iranians maternal ancestory is mainly from western Euroasia, and not from East or southern asia. Kurds, Lurs, Mazandarani, Gilaki and pathans are close to each other. Feel free to expand the maternal section though.
5. when we are talking about Iranians, we are not talking about Iranians of country of Iran or afghanistan. Iranian include Parsis of India, Zaza of Anatolia, Taylash of Caucas, etc. When these people search for their name on wikipedia they see the Iranian connection. so it is only appropriate to add them to the discussion. That is why I added some specific examples and brought up their names, because in the old genetic page the only people included where Iranians of obviously Aryan countries of Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Iran.
6. I have listed every single source that I used, PLEASE check them and READ them.
7. anybody who has an interested/majored in geneology, go ahead and make changes. I did my best to expand the genetic section, but it could use better analysis and further expansion. I do not claim to have written the best piece of genetic literature. But I strongly oppose undoing it to the old page, as it was ridicious and did not even include y-chromosome or mtDNA haplogroups that exists in modern Iranians. it only featured a single haplogroup, and I strongly disagree with such incomplete work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddd0dd ( talk • contribs) 23:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
First of all they have possible conncetion to Iranians. But if we want to put something like that in introduction to Iranians, we might as well put many other stuff such as Taj Mahal in introduction. At least those connections are based on reality. I'm gonna delete the Amazon part from intro and add to "Eastern Iranian" segment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddd0dd ( talk • contribs) 03:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Arcayne, if someone includes factually wrong information in the article (which, by the way, is an FA), then there is no need for consensus. The section about genetics is now filled with factually wrong information, copied from a scientific paper which the author obviously misinterprets. I have no idea why you have boldly reverted to the wrong and POV version (which also includes original research), but I am sure that you have a good explanation for it. Because right now, you are just about to destroy the FA status of the article! If you think that the current POV and OR in the genetics section is correct, then please provide sources - I want exact quotes! If you can't, then I think it's time to call an administrator for help and protect the page against further edits for a while. Tājik ( talk) 22:01, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Tajik thank you for spending 2 weeks going through the papers. I did not make any "claims" genetic section, I just gave a bunch of ratios. If you did not see percentages then it is not my concern, it is a concern between you and your optometrist. I will not put up the ratios up again,nor will I make any changes to "Indo-European roots", seems pointless to argue with you and tell you that each one of these "scientific papers" are giving a different story. -- Ddd0dd ( talk) 03:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, a study done in 2001, with excellent sampling.130 people from south of Iran and 33 of North,where ratio of Iranian living in North/South is 3/1, without mentioning actual areas sampled... I through repeating the same point. -- Ddd0dd ( talk) 23:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)-- Ddd0dd ( talk) 00:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
comes from a person with no knowledge in science, genetics, or history. It gets better, an ignorant who didn't even read the attacked papers and lie about reading them first, accuses me of POV, an tells me that that they actually didn't read it. You don't even understand genetic terms, so how can you even question it?! I told you in your page,and let me repeat it to you here. As a person with no background in science, you are not aware of difference between theory, hypothesis, and fact. Go ahead, educate yourself before you leave a comment. There are alternative hypothesis regarding Indo-European origin (including Indo-Iranians). One of them is Kurgan ( haplogroup R1a1, """""""or mtDNA haplogroup N"""", it is not only R1a1), Anatolia ( haplogroup G), and eastern Africa (Haplogroup E)there are at least 2 more that are considerable. Even withing hypothesis framework, and even accepting a certain hypothesis are more accurate, origin of none of these haplogroups are certain. For example R could be from Central Asia, India, Iran or most likely Afghanistan. None of these alternatives are mentioned in this article. Until you take a biology course and read some more, please do me and yourself a favour and quit commenting on something you have NO IDEA about what so ever. Please stick to your area of specialty, whatever it is ( I guess it's checking to revert anything that doesn't have the word Tajik it it). It amazes me how you comment so confidently,talking about something that you don't know S/ about, and even aruge about it. -- Ddd0dd ( talk) 01:14, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
This would be my last reply to you 1.Genetic section has been under criticism for a long time, just check other discussions. Most of what is posted there is written by people with no knowledge of anything science, since it mentions there is a "proven" Indo-Iranian maker.2.Attack?! really?! It's the truth: you are frocefully pushing your ideas on subjects that are out of your reach and your knowledge. You are completly ignorant about scientific matters, yet come here, lie about reading these papers, and then accuse others of POV and attacking you, and then easily dismiss everything others write on basis that this user doesn't know what they are talking about. First of all you haven't even read most of those papers. Second even if you read them you don't understand what they say! tell me, what does conventional phenol-chloroform method mean?! You in no way, shape or form are capable of commenting about other's skills and abilities in an area that you have 0 understanding of. And trust me this is not a personal attack, this is simply a reminder to you to stop making changes to articles that you have limited knowledge of. This page is not your "erse baba". 3.At least I had the curtsy to respect other's opinions ( to be specific YOURS! eventhough you have no idea what you are talking about)and to not enforce my ideas when there was a concern. I probably should had enforced my ideas against yours, but then it was never my intention to worsen this article or get into edit wars I care about what is written in this page and how accurate they are. I want someone with qualifications and knowledge and understanding of subject matter to comment on genetic section. Therefore I'm just gonna cut this nonsense as I'm through with this useless argument, and wait to have a constructive one with that qualified person mentioned previously. Good day to you.-- Ddd0dd ( talk) 13:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted the changes regarding Turkey. I think that sources should be presented. Tājik ( talk) 17:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Ahem, I didn't see any source in previous version? Anyway, the sources are present in Zaza people article. As for Kurds, it's unpublished synthesis in the infobox. -- Mttll ( talk) 00:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The new map on Iranian languages has some major mistakes. I have already contacted its creator, but I just want to mention that it is based on an earlier version made by de:User:Postmann Michael, a banned user of the German Wikipedia known for creating factually wrong maps. Just an example: the proportions given for Afghanistan totally contradict official numbers and most scholarly sources. Kabul and the Panjsher Valley, for example, two of the major centers of the Tajik community, are shown as Pashto speaking. Uzbek- and Persian-speaking areas in the north, where the Pashtun population is a tiny minority, is also shown as Pashto-speaking. The proportions in Iran are also wrong. Zabol, for example, is shown as Baluch-speaking. I suggest to remove or to replace the map. Tajik ( talk) 00:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Aren't the Pashtuns part of the Iranian race? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.161.174 ( talk) 16:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Every article relating to the Persian Empire, people or cultures, has now been replaced by "Iranic/Iranian." While many may not differentiate between "Persian" and "Iranian," its actually so controversial and even offensive. If you read any wikipedia article relating to this topic, you might think that the current country of Iran laid the foundation to everything of "Persian" origin. While you might argue which term came first, "Persian" should definitely be used instead of Iranian. One simple fact is there are numerous countries, cultures and ethnicities whose origins are "Persian" and there is only one country whose people are actually called "Iranian." So, if you call the origin of all the rest nations to be Iranian, it is almost if you were saying that the current country of Iran is superior to all others and they are the founders of the rest nations culture! While in reality, Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and other countries all share the same origin, and none of them can claim to be the founders of their culture. I realize this has been a long, long debate, especially for English speakers, Iranian and Persian are just not interchangeable both ways. It seems pretty logical, but somehow people go out of their way to replace every word "Persian" to "Iranian."
So I say, as a Persian, that we reserve the term "Iranian" exclusively to everything related to the currently existing country of Iran, and "Persian" to everything related to the Persian Empire, which Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and other countries, as well as Iran belonged to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.15.52.24 ( talk) 04:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
"The Saka, Scythian, and Tocharian tribes spread as far west as the Balkans and as far east as Xinjiang"
The above statement with reference to the Tocharians taken from the section 'History and Settlement' is at best inappropriate and confusing, at worst grossly inaccurate. The Tocharians are most definitely not an Iranian people (Ref. JP Mallory et al.). In my view this reference to the Tocharians is best omitted.
The history of the Tocharians in the Tarim Basin, as well as their languages, is well-documented. This reference should either be removed or clarified via (an) appropriate footnote(s) referring to relevant academic works or articles. Appropriate cross-references to Wiki-articles which deal with the Tocharians should be included. Geoff Powers ( talk) 11:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Without wishing to appear pedantic, I consider the sentence I quoted to be a tautology, implying that the Tocharians were somehow 'mixed up with' Iranian tribes (Sarmatians, i.e. Iazyges, Roxolani, etc.), subsequently migrating with the latter to the Balkans, when in fact the range of activity of the Tocharians was very narrowly concentrated in East Central Asia. As I suggested above, this reference to the Tocharians should therefore be deleted. Geoff Powers ( talk) 22:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted an IP anon who had placed a link to Irano-Afghan race on top of the article. Tajik ( talk) 17:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Have you seen [19]? can not we add those who are living inside/near Iran but are not linguistically Iranian?-- Exerting ( talk) 02:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC) To clarify, I should say no, that is why this page is not called PEOPLE OF IRAN.-- Exerting ( talk) 03:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the section "Semitic roots". First of all, because it is a misinterpretation of the source (it talks of Afro-Asiatic, while - in fact - the major people in the region prior to the Aryan dominance were the Elamites. Secondly, the info was not new. The quote is used in the next paragraph ("Indo-European roots"), explaining that scholars favor the "elite dominance" model and consider the central deserts of Iran as "barriers". Tajik ( talk) 05:15, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
On a side note, I am not an expert on the issue, but I think we should get rid of the entire Genetics section. It's racialist material that serves no real purpose, and is not a necessary component to a page that's about an ethnolinguistic grouping. What does everyone else think? -- Kurdo777 ( talk) 22:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Genetic evidence proves Iranians (from Iran) have 2 genetic sources Semitic and so called Indo-European with semitic origin being much larger why have section on smaller group without having section on larger group? The Count of Monte Cristo ( talk) 05:38, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Amazing how the genetic section is written based on an 8 year old paper. Is there any newer paper this article could use?-- 74.12.101.44 ( talk) 01:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Iranians are NOT semitic. While there are some Arab Iranians and Arabs living in Iran, the majority of Iranians who are ethnic Iranians are Aryan. Many scholars believe that these Elamites were either mostly wiped out or pushed out of Iran into Iraq, which was under the Persian Empire for a while. Majority of Northern and Central Iranians are Aryan. You have some Arabs living in Iran or are Arab-descent Iranians by nationality only - not ethnic Iranians. Trust me, you can tell the difference in race. And most Iranians do not race mix. While most people in the world have some mixture, it is still maybe 13% or less (mostly Asian blood). Cyrus the Great even allowed the Jews to live under the empire in isolation, under his protection (human rights). Some Iranians are a mixture of Nordic, Mediterranean, Alpine, etc. Like some of their Eastern European cousins, there is some asian admixture. There are separate mongolian descent Iranians in the far East, and people who are descendent of slaves (blacks) living in Southern Iran - deep south. I myself am of Haplogroup HV2, which is a European group and Mediterranean group. Macedonians, Greeks, Iranians, Austrians, Anatolians (White Turks), as well as Basques and Eastern Europeans are part of this group. Germans today call Iranians "brother". Many southern Germans, especially are mostly Alpine as well. There are a lot more mediterranean and Alpine Iranians than Nordic, but it's there. Greeks, Celts, Iranians, Northern Indians, Slavs, Germans, etc. are genetic cousins. It is also said that Croatians are closely related like the Greeks. Many Celts also passed through Northern Iran. Celts are closely related to Basque people.-- 69.149.75.198 ( talk) 07:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
The north nostratic indo-european marker is haplotype J2,J1 is south nostratic semitic marker and R is very old pre-nostratic=Dene-Caucasian.
But of course Iranians are linguistically a mix and creolisation of proto-indoeuropean Iranic mixed and spoken by Dene-Caucasian speaking R haplogroup carriying persons.
R haplogroup is found everywhere in the world ans it's very ancient. Humanbyrace ( talk) 10:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
What is the scope of this article? Is it Iranian as in the people of Iran or Iranic as in an ethno-linguistic sense? The article is confusing since it seems to jump between the two. For example it includes Azeris who are a people of Iran therefore Iranian in a political sense but also includes Kurds of Turkey who are not Iranian in a political sense but Iranic ethnolinguistically. It also includes Uzbeks who are neither Iranian politically nor ethno-linguistically. One could argue it is cultural but that is highly dubious associating generic shared practises of different peoples to a State.
If it is political, then it should only include those peoples associated with the Republic of Iran and remove those outwith the political boundaries of Iran
If it is ethnic then it should be renamed to Iranic peoples and remove the non-Iranic peoples from the article
If it is cultural then it shouldn't be called Iranian.
Xaghan (
talk)
00:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Hazaras are a turko-mongol people. How can they be iranians if they are descended from Genghis Khan??? If a family of black africans move to afghanistan and they speak farsi they would still be black africans. Time Buddha ( talk) 17:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
and why is the pakistani controlled region of kashmir shown as part of india on the following map?
File:Moderniranianlanguagesmap.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Time Buddha ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
in this by User:Tajik, i noticed it was about a section which stated that azeris were iranian peoples even though they speak turkic language because they descend from iranians. On the article Hazaras, User:Tajik has been pushing POV edits on how hazaras are iranian peoples and he says on the talk page that its because they just speak iranian language even though they descend from mongols. Time Buddha ( talk) 04:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Please change it to "people" otherwise "PEOPLE" wouldn't even bother themselves to read this article. Also Iranian is not an ethnic group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.153.45 ( talk) 14:40, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
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I'm not judging whether or not this should be included in the article, I'm just saying that I don't really see the connection between the photo's caption and the article. Not all Afghanis are Iranian are they? So were most of the mosques built by Iranian peoples there? Are non-Iranaian Afghanis not muslim? Can someone who is knowledgable please clarify this. Thanks Avraham 02:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Who the hell are you calling Afghans(Pashtoons) the Iranians? Iranians are mostly Safavids and Afghans are the 5th largest Tribe of the Aryans 12th tribes. Kurds are the other part of Aryans as well. but Iranians (Persian speaking community ) are Safavids and partly Aryans. as you may know Safavids are brunch of Turkish predecssors. so before speaking out think very carefull.
Tajiks are ( Perso-turckic) they are parts of mongols and Hazaras are also Mongols who came to Afghanistan, Iran, China in the 16th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.49.128.102 ( talk) 08:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Is that even grammatically correct? ( Havermayer 04:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)).
Peoples is wrong! (incorrect, not uncorrect) The people of are Iran are Iranian. There are a group of people. One person, two people, three people ... a group of people (i.e. one group and another two groups, and some more groups of people) are still people! I hope I made sense and you understood. Theomidrezaei 03:26, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
people of Iran have a long history.The first human right declaration was anounced by Koorosh (the grate cyrous)Iranians have participated in human civilisation.Many grate sientists,artists,poets,.. are from Iran.The efforts in history remains in the minds of people of Iran and people of the wold.People of Iran were among the first nations who belived in one God. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
79.127.125.9 (
talk)
16:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The article says: "the Achaemenid Persians established the world's first multi-national state." Not sure this is true - even the Babylonian Empire was multi-national. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PiCo ( talk • contribs) 05:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
could someone please tell me why the Amazons are infamous? OK there is a nasty story that the cut one of their breasts of but on the other hand there are TV-hits like Xenia. Wandalstouring 08:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
"Some tribes of Sarmatians are also identified as the
Amazons of Greek legend,"
No, they are not. Give a source! The ref says the opposite.
"warrior women believed to have lived in a...society in which both men and women took part in war,"
No. that does not apply to the greek Amazons, and there are no other "Amazons"
"and whose existence has been supported by recently-uncovered archaeological and genetic evidence."
No. The existence of some warrior women in Sarmatian culture (much too late) may have been evidenced. Still the source is very poor.
[1]
the line "The first is a Bronze Age mentioning by an Iranian tribe..." does not appear to be very clear to me. does the "first" refer to the "scant references to these early Proto-Iranian invaders in the early writings..." discussed in the previous paragraph? if so, then the two sentences are too far removed from each other for the link to be clear, especially since the intermediate sentences move away from "references" to discussing other matters. Doldrums 15:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
the sentence "Due the racial structure the Volga Tatars, Chuvashes and Crimean Tatars, as well as some other Turkic Euriopeans were derived not only from Turks, but also form Western Iranians." is not grammatically correct. Doldrums 16:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
with all the vandalism and nonsense added to the article (as a result of its featured status), who is going to be able to figure out what of value was lost and needs to be recovered? Is someone going to read and compare every word before/after its being featured? Should this article be semi-protected, at least? Hmains 19:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Tabreek!
Congrads for featured status!
Thanks for the zahamaat of all those involved!-- Zereshk 23:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The trouble is, this article is inherently racist - it identifies the speakers of a language (or group of language) as possessing a unique identity, and seeks other markers to reinforce that identity. This is the same line taken by the Nazis to support their ideas of the Aryan super-race, and flows from the same fallacy - that languages can be identified with their speakers. Linguists have long given up this idea, but it lingers in the populqar culture and in pseudo-scholarship - which, I'm afraid, is what this article is. PiCo 04:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
the article seems to be in need of a thorough review in general. I trimmed the "History" section a little bit. The "Roots" section should only treat prehistory, that is, Proto-Indo-Iranian up to Eastern:Western split. Scythians, Sarmatians and Achaemenids belong in the Eastern and Western sections respectively. It is not known where Avestan was spoken, and "Avestans" is not used as an ethnonym. Strictly speaking, it is not established that Avestan was really an "Eastern" dialect, but I admit it is typically classified as such. It is ludicrous to include speculations on the Amazons in this summary. Note that we have the Ancient Iranian peoples article, where these early times can be treated in full detail; the "Roots" section should only give a brief summary of that per WP:SS. dab (𒁳) 11:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Iranian azeris are Turks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.106.139.55 ( talk) 15:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
What is the point of the Zoroastrian picture of a Guardian Spirit? You might as well put that in, a picture of Jesus (as), a picture of Imam Ali (as), and whatever else represents the Iranians' religion. It's pointless. Armyrifle 00:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someone add a pronunciation header on the page? Is it e-RAHN-ian or eye-RAIN-ian? -- Liface 22:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Historically Incorrect usuage of a name I think the name Should be changed because there is too much confusion among people they think they are talking about Iran when referring to Aryans. it shows how much the iranians are in charge of the history books here. 71.141.233.93 07:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)Pashtun786
I agree too.Iran is a polictical state.It compramises of various ethnicites.Iranian is a nationality not a race as is Indian or Afghan or Pakistani and the reason is because they compramise of thousands of groups as oppossed to a single group.- Vmrgrsergr 19:41, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
As an Iranian, I agree with this Pashtun guy in one sense, that is despite genetical facts they should not generalize pashtun taliban fans to people like persians, kurds and tajiks, Azaris, ......... Mehrdad
as I remember it was agreed that Azeris should be mentioned in a special section and not as part of the list, also the information about uzbak was unsourced so I removed it. Gol 22:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes according to a popular theory Croats belive that they stem from ancient Iranian tribes (Sramathians most probably), the same theory says more or less that also Serbs and Bosnians are from this tribe. see this http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/chapter1.htm there dozens of srticles and books about this. A Romanian friend also once told me that there is a theory that the ancient Dacians of Romania were Iranians. I have not read it anywere but it makes sense, because as Ukraine (Scythia) was an Iranian land and they were also found in the Balkans so Romania most probably has been too. Also remember when Darius went to fight with the Scythians (Iranians) he crossed Danube (the border between the contemporary Bulgaria and Romania), while if there were no Scythians (Iranians) in Romania, then he could attack the scythians Via Central Asia or the Caucasus! He also pointed to some artifacts of Dacians which resembled those of Scythians. Anyway. Another people who you should not forget are the Jaszy of Hungary. As the name suggests they are releated to the Ossetians. In fact they are Alans who entered this region (Central Hungary). They have already forgotten their language but are still or (were for a long time) aware of their ethnicity. It is debated whether or not Armenians are Iranians. The Armenian language is very close to the Iranian languages. Things are similar which could not be said that they are taken over from (other) Iranian languages. Most probably Armenian is a separate branch of the Iranian languages (next to the west eg. persian, Kurdish etc... and East eg. Ossetian, Pamir etc...). Addinf to that the Armenian aristocracy and kings have been of parthian origins. So You can consider them as Iranian peoples or not. Most Armenians however do not like to be related to Iranians and a lot I have encountered are very hostile to Iranians. The main reason is the religiosu difference, not knowing that Ossetians (who do not deny their Iranianness)are also Orthodox Christians. Having said this Georgians who are a Kartvelian people have assimilated many ossetians (Alans) in them. Moreover the georgian ancient kings and aristocracy have been of Parthian origins too. So maybe you can only mention this without listing it. Babakexorramdin 12:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Azeris are mentioned in their own special section so no need for them to be on the list. (this was agreed on a while back)
When people do not speak Iranian languages they can not be part of the official list therefore croats and serbs are removed. They can however be mentioned (if there is enough evidence) in an speciall section like the one with Azeris. also tajik includes all tajiks so no need for "tajiks of china"
Gol
17:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
and if you ask me the Fars of Southern Iran are less Iranian than the Turkicspeaking Azeris, if measured by DNA genes and culture. Was it Iran not called Iran due to the Aryans? then certanly the Azeris and in general northern Iranian have more portion of Aryan genes and blood than do the Fars of South and Yazd and Kerman. Just think about it! Babakexorramdin 22:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion starts off about the possibility that Croats and Serbs are of Iranian origins, but then starts waffling about Turks and Georgians. Obviously off the topic because thay are not Balkan
Back to Serbs and Croats.. There is a theory that Serbs and Croats derived their NAME from Samartian tribes called Serboi and Chrobati. This is based on a few (very few) linguistic points, that are subject to much conjecture. Linguists and etymologists often come up with many different theories on the origin of a word, and the above example is one.
Serbs and Craots are certainly not Iranian peoples. They are slavs. They language is Slavic. Someone included Bosnians as Iranian peoples. Apart from being Muslim, they have nothing in common, so i removed them from the list.
The only possibilty that MAY be likely is the a caste of Samartian warriors living in the Ukrainian Steppes fled westwards to Poland, the hypothetical homeland of Slavs. Here they were assimilated by the more numerous Slavic tribes. Yet their name was kept, effectively lending them their name to the Serbo-Croats, which subsequently migrated to the Balkans in 7th to 8th century AD.
However this theory is likely to be inccorect. The very few, if any, sources who refer to these Samartian tribes are likely to be confused, as historians back then often referred to tribes based on location rather than ethnicity. Certainly DNA evidence does not support this idea at all (instead showing Serbs and Croats are 'composed' of Slavic genes mixed with the native Illyrians in the Balkans prior to the migration, and have no closer relation to Iranians than any other European).
But certainly an interesting idea Hxseek 08:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
And is it because you do not know who were dacians? is this what you called Turk? And may we know your own "ethnic" or "racial" background? ok to other people: I do not care about if the Yugoslavs are mentioend or not, but AZERIS should really be mentioned as an Iranian people. If Azeris are not an Iranian people (I do not mean language) then most of Iranians are not too. So AZERIS should be included. A warning: AN OBSCURE GROUP CONNECTED TO THE FAMOUS ANTI_IRANIAST BRENDA SHAFFER IS ACTIVE TO POLLUTE ALL INFORMATUION ON THE IRANIANS AND BRING ETHJNIC HATRED! Babakexorramdin 22:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
OK. YOUR DISCUSSION IS TITLED 'IRANIANS IN THE BALKANS"
MY FIRST POINT IS THAT TALKING ABOUT TURKISH AND GEORGIAN PEOPLE IS NOT RELEVANT, EVEN THOUGH THEY MIGHT BE IRANIAN, BECAUSE GEORGIA AND TURKEY ARE NOT BALKAN COUNTRIES. (REFER TO AN ATLAS AND EDUCATE YOURSELF)
SECONDLY, AS I SAID ABOUT THE CROAT AND SERBS THEORY, IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE , BUT QUITE UNLIKELY.
ABOUT YUGOSLAVS NOT BEING SLAVS, YOU'RE INCCORRECT. SLAVS CONTAIN HAPLOTYPE R1 a AT A RATE OF 20-30 % (THE "SLAVIC" GENE). YES, THIS IS LOWER COMPARED TO OTHER SLAVS LIKE UKRAINIAN AND POLES (40-60%). BUT THIS IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY INTERMIXED WITH THE ILLYRIANS, A NATIVE EUROPEAN PEOPLE LIVING IN THE BALKANS BEFORE AND DURING ROMAN TIMES, AS WELL AS OTHERS TO A SMALLER EXTENT (EG CELTS) . NO ONE IS PURE ANYTHING THESE DAYS.
YET, YUGOSLAVS ARE STILL SLAVS. (HENCE THE NAME). THEY SPEAK SLAVIC LANGUAGE, HAVE A SLAVIC WAY OF LIFE, AND -MOST IMPORTATNLY- IDENTIFY THEMSELVES AS SLAVS. EHTNICITY CANNOT BE CONCLUDED FROM GENETICS ALONE, IT MERELY HELPS WITH IDENTIFYING COMMON ACESTRY.
I AM AUSTRALIAN WITH SOME YUGOSLAV BACKGROUND, SO I HAVE RESEARCHED THIS QUITE FULLY OUT OF INTEREST, AND I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AGAINST IRANIAN PEOPLE. BUT YOU SHOULD MAKES SURE YOU ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ
AS FOR THE THEORY THAT DACIANS ARE IRANIANS. I DO NOT THINK SO, THOUGH I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON THIS FIELD. DACIANS ARE AN INDO-EUROPEAN PEOPLE THAT ARE SIMILAR TO ILLYRIANS. I AM ALMOST 100% SURE THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IRANIANS.
IT IS TRUE THAT IRANIAN TRIBES ONCE HAD BEEN IN THE BALKANS. THE AVARS AND ALANS FOR EXAMPLE. HOWEVER HISTORIANS DO NOT AGREE WHETHER THEY WERE TURKIC, IRANIAN OR CENTRAL ASIATIC PEOPLES. HOWEVER, THEY WERE CONQUERED BY THE SERBS AND CROATS. THE BYZANTINE EMPEROR INVITED THE SERBS AND CROATS TO DESTROY THE AVARS BECAUSE THEY WERE A PEST TO THE EMPIRE. MOST WERE PROBABLY KILLED, ALTHOUGH CERTAINLY SOME WOULD HAVE BEEN ASSIMILATED WITH THE SLAVS.
FINAL POINT: THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN IRANIAN PEOPLE IN THE PAST TO MODERN IRANIANS. MODERN IRANIANS NO ARE NOT ONLY IRANIAN, BUT ALSO HAVE TURKIC AND ARABIC INFLUENCES DUE TO THE FACT THAT PERSIA WAS RULED BY VARIOUS TURKIC AND ARAB EMPIRES (DO NOT BE OFFENDED). SO MY POINT IS : IT MAY BE INCORRECT TO CALL CERTAIN OTHER PEOPLE IRANIAN (EG GEORGIANS OR WHATEVER) WHEN NOT EVEN PEOPLE FROM IRAN ARE TOTALLY IRANIAN
::::::::::: Whether race or Culture. Whther Partial or Complete First of all I did not spoke about Turkey, so I wonder where you got that? Secondly the Yugoslavs (except Slovenes to a high extent) do not have much sklavic genes and their way of life is different. They were speaking on the Iranian people (some say culturally, the other racially whatever) and I said if you take the genes as an starting points then it is not only Croats but also Bosniaks and Serbs as they are the same people with different religion. You got my point? I am aware of that the Yugoslavs have Illyrian, Iranian And Slavic roots, and this has given shape to a unique culture and genetical makeup. So my point was if they take the partial Iranianness as being Iranian then not only Croats but also Serbs and Bosniaks should be included. Secondly your talk on Avars and Alans: Dear friend central Asiatic peoples are either Iranian, Turkic, Mongolian or Hunnic. Although the affiliation of Huns to either group is contested. Avars are thaught to be Mongols (distinct from the Caucasian Avars) and Alans were Iranians. Moreover uit is believed that the Iranians who were in the Balkans were Sarmatian, or better said Scythians of Sarmatian decent, as the the eastern Scythians (Saka) were of Turanian (Iranian and not Turkic) decent. As I said I dont know about Dacians; they are still unknown to certain extents; but Why Darius passed the danube to attack the Scythians if they were not in Romiania? Just think about it. And I agree about Modern day Iranian and the ancient Iranian. I think that the writers should distinguish in that. While the Turkic or Mongolian Hazaras became sedentary and speak an Iranian language, the Parsis of India however are becoming less and less Iranian everyday. The Uzbeks and Tajiks were sarts, they are a mixture of Iranian and Turkic blood and were bilingual in Central Asian persian and Jaghatay Turkic. Their culture and way of life is however Iranian. So this is a case of cultural irannianness more than racial Iranianness. (However both people have had Soghdian blood; an extinct Iranian people!). But Azeris are in all stances Iranian: their Culture and their genetical make up is totally Iranian as way as their way of life. The only thing is their language; but as I said even many Azeris still speak their old Iranian language and many Talysh call themselves simply Azeri, as they believe they are the Azeris who have not lost their language. Moreover the Azeri Turkic language has Turkic grammatical structures (and some Iranian ones0 and many Turkic words (especially the verbs)but its lexicon and syntaxis is still very Iranian! So is the Uzbek language! Babakexorramdin 09:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes friend, but i think you overestimate the contribution of ancient Iranian peoples to the Balkans.
SOme ancient historians beleive that the Serboi and Chrobati were Samartian tribes that lived in the ukranian area. They were NEVER in the balkans. To say so is simply wrong. Their connection with the Balkans is this ( as i have already written) : some THEORIZE that these samartian tribes moved to Poland area and merged with some slav tribes, giving them the name Serbs and croats. These tribes then invaded the balkans, mixing with slavs that had moved their 1 century earlier.
So even if this theory is true, the Iranian compenent would be very small. They were numerically much smaller, and they assimilated ith the slavs, not the other way around.
THe second influence was the Alans. THey were nomadic group that was troubling the Roman empire. However , their empire (centred in modern day bulgaria) soon fell and conquered by the slavs, and the people either died or were absorbed by the slavs.
When a group is conquered, they are forced to accept slavic culture and language, not the other way round. Thats why yugoslavs speak slavic, not iranian.
As for you saying that yugoslavs are not very slavic, your wrong. If you bothered to read my discussion you would understand. Yes, they have less slavic genes. THis is because they intermixed with the Illyrians. But again it was the SLAVIC language and culture that was kept, because , again, the slavs conquered the Illyrians. There is no genetic influence of Iranians in modern Yugoslavs. THis has been shown. Thats why the Serboi and Chrobat theory is largely unsupported
They are slavic culture, religion and language. I know i have lived there !
To summarise, there is very little Iranian influence in the Balkans. You just cannot make this claim. Just because the Vandals were once in North Africa , can u now say that north Africa is partly German ??.
And yes, Yugoslavs are different to Ukraians and other slavs. But Ukranians are different to Poles or Russians. That's why they are different countries. SLavs are not all the same.
SO i do not doubt that there were some iranian people that made it to the balkans, but my point is that there contribution to culture is probably small, if any. Because they were assimilated or coquered by the slavs; so their own culture is lost very quickly, over one or two generations. THEY ADOPTED SLAVIC CULTURE and WAY OF LIFE. Not the other way around. What little imprints they did leave would be diluted over 1.5 thousand years
The Samartians have been reported to move into Dacia (Romania). Yet they never crossed into Illyria (modern - day Yugoslavia). Most accounts suggest they were wiped out by the Gothic incursions.
Even if any actually were present in ugoslavia (unlikely), one would definitely be stretching it to classify Yugoslavs as even partially Iranian. As i said the bulk of the 'ancestral contribution' is Slavic. The balkans is a very mixed place, as every one knows. It would be very hard to ascertain just how prevalent and lasting the influence of Iranian tribes were. But i doubt that it would be very big ( as they had so many other mixes as well).
As is said before, theories like you presented (Samartian in Balkans) are merely theories, which are unfortunately more likely to be incorrect than correct. They are based on accoutns from old Roman historians. These are often incorrect or misinterpreted, as the Roman historians tended to call the same one tribe more than one name, or different tribes the same name, and they classed tribes more according to where they inhabited rather than according to any real cultural or ethnic division.
Some contemporary linguists hypothesise that certain words, especially in Croatian, for king and nobels etc are said to stem from iranian (eg Zupan). But this is again debatable, as there are just too many different theories in linguistics.
The most convincing evidence against the Iranian theory is DNA analysis. THis shows that there is no Iranian contribution to modern day southern slavs. ie Iranians are as closely related to Croats as they are to Swedes, for example. Hxseek 00:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually your take is an oversimplification at best.
The majority of Serbs and croats DNA contribution comes from native people in the Balkans(perhaps from Illyrians). This is haplogroup E3b. Another large component is haplogroup I1b , which is unique to the south slavs. The remaining ones are R1a (20-35%) , which is known as the 'slav gene' by lay circles, but is more correctly the haplotype associated with the Ukranian refugia in the last ice age; and R1b (15% on average) which is common in western europe (perhaps reflecting conrtibutions from the goths and celts).
THe haplotype associated with the alans and sarmatian people is G. The frequency of this allele in the southern slavs is 0%. This is pretty convincing evidence that there is negligible contribution of the iranian people to soutehrn slavs. This is consitent with the historical theories :
a) most of the alans went west, then into africa with the Vandals. Those that remained in eastern europe must have been too numerically small to contribute to any modern day country's make up.
b) the sarmatiana where never in the western balkans. They lived in ukraine, and maybe even went to romania (ie EAST balkans), but not the western balkans.
So one can conclude that the southern slavs are a mixture of people indegenous to the Balkans from over 50, 000 years ago , plus the recent slavs (in AD 600-800s), who imposed their language , way of life; and after accepting christianity from Byzantium, developed the concept of 'christian Slava'. Unfortunately no Iranians to be objectively mentioned.
Ok now you are just making up your on theories and going into pseudo-science
You cannot accurately distinguish nationality between looks, first of all
Secondly you are again mixing up your facts, or maybe you are just not educated enough. You claim that the "slav genes" (haplo R1a) are from Iranians ?? The slav genes are the genes of the original Indo_europeans (The "aryans) who migrated/ invaded Persia. These have been traced back to over 15, 000 years ago. The Sarmatians , Alans, etc came to Europe a lot later, obviously. As i already have mentioned, they unfortunatley left minimal influence in Europe.
Firstly, they were not numerically large enough to have any impact on the gentic composition. Secondly they were not a great enough civilisation to leave any lasting cultural influences either. The alans were barbarians that raided and looted. THey were eventually killed off by Franks and early Slavic kingdoms. Those that survived were assimilated. When this happens they adopt the culture of the europeans. Within a generation or two, their Iranian genes were pretty much lost. The main article even states : most alans went to Africa with the Vandals, whilst " other remnants of the Alans disappeared following Germanic, Hunnic and ultimately Slavic invasions.[18]" The same is said about the Sarmatians. (very little is objectively known about the Sarmatians. Anyone who lived in the area was referred to as Sarmatians. They were not only Iranian stock, but also slavs and balts; the area ere they lived fell to many different other tribes: Bulgars, Khazars, the Rus, Mongols. Sarmatians ceased being a distinct entity at least 2, 000 years ago)
In fact, the situation is OPPOSITE to what you state. The original 'aryan-iranians' were indo-europeans that originated from the Kurgan area, in modern day Ukraine. Some went down to Iran, became the ruling elite, and introduced the Indo-European language to the natives of the persian region. Yet they must have been numerically small as they did not leave much DNA.(the incidence of haplo R1a in modern iran is about 0%)
At the same time, the Indo-European people spread mostly over Eastern europe, spreading the R1a genes, and introducing the proto-indo-european language. The language also reached Western europe as a consequence of 'cultural migration' where the native population of west europe accepted the language in the process of adapting farming techniques from the indo-europeans. SO the genes were largely confined to eastern europe. (refer to Indo-European article)
So given the geographical origin of the aryans, and the distribution of their genes, it can be seen that they are foremost the ancestors of modern slavs. A small group of them went to persia to rule over the local persians.
So, should i be so bold to say that Iranians were influenced by Slavs? Obviously not, that would be almost as ridiculous as some of the things some of you write in this discussion
It merely means that the ancient Aryan_iranians and anceint slavs had common ancestors 15, 000 ago. Some went into Persia and mixed in with the Elamites, then later Turks, Mongols and Arabs, whilst the ones that stayed in Eastern europe mixed in amongst themselves and the native (hunter-gatherer) Europeans. Yes some Iranian tribes then later did come back north to europe, but they were merely a loose confederation of nomadic horsemen that did not leave much, if any, lasting influence in Europe. This is a fact.
I would like to hear if you have any evidence to show to the contrary
1. You mentioned DNA. I have shown numerous times that this is wrong
2. Any linguistic evidence?
3. Anyone in europe practice Zoroastrinism or similar such things?
Why do you insist on talkin crap? Just accept that my intelligence is superior to yours.
If you want to debate, first of all learn how to speak english, then secondly go and read a history book so you know some real facts rather than making non-sense conclusions.
All you have to do is read my argument, it makes perfect sense.
Your intentions are good, but i'm afraid you are the one that is confused.
If the genes in the slavs are partly from ancient Iranians (which is what you say), then why is there NO SIMILARITIES BETWEEN MODERN SLAVS AND MODERN IRANIANS. THAT IS MY POINT. There should be some genetic ties if modern slavs are partly descended from ancient Iranians, as modern Iranians obviously are. BUT THE DNA SIMILARITIES BETWEEN SLAVS AND IRANIANS ARE NO MORE CLOSER THAN IRANIANS AND SWEDES, ITALIANS OR ENGLISH.
THE ONLY PROVEN RELATION BETWEEN SLAVS, INCLUDING SOUTH SLAVS, AND IRANIANS (MODERN OR ANCIENT) IS THE INDO-EUROPEAN PEOPLES THAT LIVED IN UKRAINE. MOST STAYED IN EASTERN EUROPE, BUT SOME WENT TO RULE IN THE PERSIAN AREA (AND ARE KNOWN AS THE ARYAN IRANIANS, TO DISTINGUISH THEM FROM THE NATIVE ELAMITES AND OTHER SEMITIC PEOPLE THAT LIVED IN THE AREA).
There was no established or longterm, or even any residual settlement by anceint Iranians in the Balkans (ie Yugoslavia). Even scythia minor's western-most extent was to romania and hungary. This area is the carpathian, not balkans.
I am afraid a lot of what you say is merely your own personal, misinformed opinion. Sorry,
I agree with some of what is said. THe ancient 'Aryan' Iranians, as opposed to native Elamo-Dravidians were Indo-European speaking. I never desputed that the ancient Iranian ARE INDO-EUROS
(The IEs started of as a distinct people, but now it merely refers to a linguistic classification. )
But you are saying that Slavs inherited their genes from the ancient Iranians. THis is what i disagree with My point is : The ancient slavs and ancient Iranians both dervied from the original Indo-European people. Iranians didn;t give rise to slavs, nor did iranians come from slavs, but they both came from the IEs. When they split off 3000 or so years ago, they were probably not even distinguishable.
So understand my point , please
Secondly, i disagree with the place of origin of the ancient Iranians. You say they were originally from central asia. Yes, in so far as to say that is where the 'differentiated, into the Iranian sub-branch of IEs. But the origin of the original IEs, which gave rise to all other subbranches was in the pontic steppe, Ukraine area (ie Kurgan) (although still disputed, this is the currently most agreed place)
Thirdly, any linguistic similarities in words between persian and southern -slav are more likely to be due to the fact they are both eastern bracnhes of the IE language. EG the word for god is 'bog', This is not only in yugo-slav, but virtually all other slavic languages. ANd as for comparing culture between the two, it is flawed practice as it can be subjective. It would be hard, in the end to make comparisons these days because of the fact that both iranian descendents and slavs have been subsequently influenced by other events/ people, eg Greeks/latin/germans/ christianity for slavs, versus Turkish/mongol/arabic/islam for most persians. I afraid most people view comparitive linguistics and cultural comparisons a PSEUDO-science !
And i re-iterate i have nothing against Iranians. But i do object to arguments which make false assumtions and lead to incorrect conclusions.
OK i agreee with the last paragraph only.
I don;t know who was writing the previous paragraphs, but they were making claims that ancient iranians lived in the balkans and/or modern day slavs are someho descended from these people.
Although I would clarify that the Iranian origin of H'ravat, while a major theory, is not quite 'widely accepted' . It is a theory only (at this stage).
Secondly be careful with your wording. IF indeed 'croat' is of iranian origing, then it is the NAME that is of iranian origin. But their 'national identity' is NOT of iranian origin.
Otherwise i found the Iranian peoples article very interesting
Why all the argument and fighting? Their own experts scholars and geneticist will tell you that Croats are of Iranic origin, end of discussion.
Cyrus111 ( talk) 11:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Being of Pakistani Baloch descent I am uncomfartable with the useage of the word "Iranian" to label Baloch.Iran is simply a modern-day country as is Afghanistan.Would it be correct to label Tajiks or Uzbeks an "Afghan people?" when Uzbeks and Tajiks existed well before 1747 (the year of Afghanistan's creation).Or to call the peopple of central Asia a "soviet people"? No.This is not a term accepted by everyone.it is simply wrong.- Vmrgrsergr 19:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Pejman47 is right.The trouble is that this article not always tries to distinguish between linguistic terms, racial ideas and other things. This is probably where Vmrgrsergr's unease comes from. Refdoc 10:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I actually do not agree with you here, grandmaster. The way Azeris are included in the article is certainly better than either total non-inclusion or simply inclusion into the list as was done before. I am sure that the current paragraph can be improved upon, but it is fair, correct and NPOV to mention Azeris at this point with the various caveats added - as already done to some degree. Refdoc 14:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree, Babak is right, Azeris should be on the list, as the list clearly says that its for people of Iranian descent. Azeris are a people of Iranian descent, this is acknowledged in the scholarly community. Hajji Piruz 18:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
No, Azeris should not be included in the list. A small note with reference to some sources is enough. After all, the language replacement theory is accepted by all mainstream scholars. I agree with Grandmaster that Azeris are an Turkic people by definion, although his claim that Azeris have an actual East Asian Turkic origin is most certainly wrong. Also, Uzbeks are not an Iranian people. Both Azeris and Uzbeks are linguistically a Turkic people. Genetically, Azeris and Uzbeks share a common origin with Iranian peoples, but the Iranian peoples themselvs have an ancient origin which predeominantly not Indo-European. Although I agree with you that Azeris have neither cultural nor genetical ties with actual Turkic peoples, they are still a Turkic people by modern definition. This is an FA-status article. With claims such as ``Uzbeks are an Iranian people´´ you riun the good quality of the article.
see this link on the ancestors of uzbeks and Tajiks
http://sogdiana.blogspot.com/2005/11/what-is-sogdiana.html
Babakexorramdin
20:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
This FA article is not about descent, its about linguistic ties. The article is not even about cultural ties. If the article were about descent and pure genetics, then all the so-called Iranian peoples except for some isolated Tajik families in the Pamir mountains would have been removed, because modern Iranian speakers are not genetical descendants of ancient Iranians, but descendants of Non-Iranian peoples who had adopted Iranian languages after the Aryan invasion (see section about genetics). Everyone knows that Azeris are genetically related to Iranian speakers and that less than 1000 years ago their ancestors were still speakers of Iranian languages. But this is totally irrelevant, because this article is about linguistiuc classifications, and thus Azeris are a Turkic people. They are not Turks in terms of genetics and historical accounts, but they are Turkics in terms of language and recent post-Islamic history. Uzbeks are much more Turks than Azeris. Depending on the geographic location, certain Uzbeks are descendants of Turkic and Mongol invaders, others are heavily mixed with the ancient Iranian population, and others are descendants of ancient Iranians who adopted a Turkic language. Claiming that Uzbeks are in any way Iranian is totally baseless and pseudo-scientific. Uzbeks are also a Turkic people, and they can even trace their origins back to the Turkic and Mongol invaders. I have no idea why they are included in the list. You source is not a scientific source, but a blog. I also reinserted the Hazaras into the article, who are considered an Iranian people by all mainstream historians. And since you firmly believe that physical looks and pure genetics define ethnicity, could you please explain to me why these Hazara boys are supposed to be categorized as non-Iranian while these Uzbeks are claimed to be Iranians?!
About the picture: It seems that you have never seen a Hazara; those children are either not Hazars or are mixed. Although it is true that Hazaras are mixed with Iranian elements, but they keep an awareness of being Asiatic and non-Iranians, while the Uzbek culture glorifies its Iranian elemnts. Babakexorramdin 20:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that you do not know any Hazaras. You talk about Hazaras, although you have never heared the names Sayyid Ismail Balkhi, Sayyid Sultan Shah Homam, or Abdul Khaliq. If you do know these names, which are totally essential to understand the collective identity of the Hazaras, then please illuminate us with your knowledge! What you are doing is pseudo-scientific nonsense. You talk about descent, but when it comes to Iranians, you ignore the many genetical proves that Iranians themselvs are not Iranians, but only speakers of Iranian languages who adopted these languages in an elite-dominance process - exactly the same way modern Turks adopted Turkic languages. Hazaras are aware of their Mongolian descent, beucase people like you think of them as a foreign people. In reality, you would not even see the difference between an educated Hazara or Tehrani "Persian" (and everyone knows that Tehranis are not realy Persians). When Khodadad Azizi scored for the Iranian national football team in the '98 world-cup games, noone dared about his "Non-Iranian descent". And now you claim that these people who speak an Iranian language, have an Iranian culture, and are among the most zealous supporters of Pan-Iranian movements (you should at least once read the works of Sultan Shah Homam) are not an Iranian people, and at the same time want to make us believe that Turkic-speaking Azeris are Iranics?! Maybe you should listen to this Hazara, since you seem to have no idea about who the Hazaras are. I am tired of editting the article, and it also seems to me that your only aim is to ruin the FA status of this article. Now you even try to prove your non-scientific claims by quoting Islam Karimov, a known Pan-Turkist and anti-Iranian tyrant. I have contacted admins to deal with the issue, since you have once again removed the tag without providing accurate sources.
Someone (I presume it was Babakexorramdin) removed the fact tag for the claim that Azerbaijanis sometimes included as Iranian people, but provided no references. Can I see a source that includes Azerbaijanis as Iranian people? If there’s no such source, the claim should be removed. Iranian, Turkic, Slavic, etc are linguistic denominations, and Azerbaijanis are not Iranian people, because they do not speak an Iranian language. Please stop adding inaccurate info or support it with reliable sources. -- Grandmaster 05:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I rolled the article back to Raystorm's version, since inclusion of Azeris and Uzbeks into the list of Iranian people and other similar claims are original research. Please cite your sources if you disagree. -- Grandmaster 07:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I did not see any sources whatsoever. Ethnicity is not defined by genes, it is defined by the language. Azerbaijanis and Uzbeks speak Turkic languages, therefore they are Turkic people. Simple as that. See Britannica, it says that Azeris are Turkic people, not Iranian. Now you show me a source that says that Azeris are Iranian people. Grandmaster 18:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The term is used in contrast to race, which refers to a classification of physical and genetic traits perceived as common to certain groups
If you mean this:
Islam Karimov the Uzbekistani president stressing the common origins of Uzbeks and Tajiks has said: Tajiks and Uzbeks are one nation, which speaks two languages!.
it is not a scholarly reference. If George Bush said that Americans and Mexicans were one nation, which speaks two languages, would you use it as a reference for the article on the origin of Mexican and Latin people? Political declarations are not scholarly sources on ethnic origins. -- Grandmaster 10:31, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The last sentence quoting Gimbutas in the roots section is:
"the Process of Indo-Europeanization was a cultural, not a physical transformation. It must be understood as a military victory in terms of imposing a new administrative system, language and religion upon the indigenous groups."
THis was included with the context of Iranian (ie IRan proper) people lacking R1a haplotype, whereas others do.
Her conclusion was that the indo-european spread was a cultural one, rather than physical.
I propose that her conclusion is only half right. If in fact R1a is the haplotype of Indo-europeans, then obviously there must have been at least some physical spread of genes by the IEs, as it is found from europe to areas in central asia.
The rest of the spread must have been cultural / linguistic replacement as people in western europe and Iran have low levels of R1a.
For more information see:
Askarov, A. & B.Ahmadov, O'zbek Xalqning Kilib Chiqishi Torixi. O'zbekiston Ovozi, 20 Januray 1994.
Also have a look at:
see this link on the ancestors of uzbeks and Tajiks
http://sogdiana.blogspot.com/2005/11/what-is-sogdiana.html
If you disregard two uzbek academicians in one of the leading Uzbekistani newspapers (of course they reported on their previous works elsewhere), then you disrespect the academic reasoning anyway. One more time we are not speaking on language. So stop reapeting yourself. Babakexorramdin 14:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Azeris are of Iranian descent, not "considered by some" (or something like that). Hajji Piruz 17:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
WHY has this Panturkist activists deleted my source? Moreover I do not think that Azeris and Uzbeks share the same group as South Slavs. Iranianness of Azeris is a FACT, Partial iranness of Uzbeks is also a fact. While Iranianess of Yugoslavs remain problematic. Babakexorramdin 18:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
If you want to know what is happening on Iranian related articles on Wikipedia, please take alook at User: Tajik's discussion page. He was falsely accused on being several Pan-Turkist admins for using sockpuppets. These few admins who wanted to get rid of him and misused their admin powers. Please read his story here. -- Behnam 23:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
For fuck's sake Babakexorramdin. Yugoslavs's aren't Iranian , for the last time. Not even 0.000000001 %. Its not 'problematic'. Its basic fact, history and commensense.
I think you don't know what you write. Maybe you have dementia. I quote your 2nd line in this paragraph "Iranianness of Azeris is a FACT, Partial iranness of Uzbeks is also a fact. While Iranianess of Yugoslavs remain problematic. 60.240.30.90 04:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
you make no sense. What do you mean by 'you type of guys'? All you do is cry because people don;t buy into your absurd theories. Here's my signature: Hxseeker 14:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
To whom it may conceren
I am really tired of editing and get undone and again. I do not like this wars. I brought you sourses, and exactly said what are the criteria which apply to this categorization. yet I found it very insulting that e.g. Tombseye undones my edits neglecting all sources and evidences and saying that they are not Iranian peoples. This is wandering in circles. I do believe that some people here at wikipedia have a political goial, are very anti-Iranian and use wikipedia as a mean to spread their pseudo-scientific and propagand against Iranians. See for example the discussion on Brenda Shaffer. Therefore I regard it as useless to engage anymore in editions. And I propose all Iranians retreat out of protest from Wikipedia. Babakexorramdin 15:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I noticed it said:
"According to a recent study, the ancestors of the Kurds were from an old Mediterranean substratum, i.e. Hurrian and Hittite groups. According to this study the Aryan ancestry of the Kurds and other Iranian-speaking populations in Anatolia is not supported by genetic analyses.[42]"
Does that mean that the Kurds of Anatolia(Turkey) are not of Aryan decent, while the ones in Iran remain of Aryan decent?
The number of Shia and sunni in the Iranian ethnic groups are equally distributed. Lets see
at least some 48 mln in Iran, remeber that half of the Kurds in Iran are Shia! We count Farsiwan and Hazaras of Afghanistan as some 25% of afghanistan this makes about 6 mln (at the least case).
Some 8 million in Turkey (the Turkic-speaking groups not counted. At least 4 mln Zazas (at least case) and at least the same number of Alevis among the Kurmanji Kurds.
Nearly one milion Pamiris in Tajikistan, Afghanistan and China.
there are also Shia kurds in rep. Azerbaijan, Iraq, Shia Tajiks in Uzbekistan, Shia tats in rep. Azerbaijan, and Russia, and Lak and Persians in iraq and Persian Gulf countries. We add some 3 millions (especially for the last groups).
about 65 mln (if we do not include to this number the Iranian but Turkicspeaking groups such as Azeris, and Qashqais)
Now we count Sunnis
lets say all Sunnis of Iran (9%) are Iranian which they are not! It makes 6 mln.
some 70% of Afghanistan this makes 14 mlin
Tajiks in Tajikistan and Uzbekistan make some additional 6 mln (this number also includes the number of Persian Speaking Uzbeks, who are not registered as Tajiks) Lets imagine that exist 35 milion Sunni Moslem speakers of Iranian languages in pakistan (which seems very unlikely).
And lets assume that there are 30 mln Kurds of which 80% are Sunni (the rest are either Shia/Alevi or Yezidi) this makes 20 mln.
about 75 mln
and then there are tiny minorities of Zoroastrian, Christian, Bahai and Jews.
If we add the number of Azeris, this will make some 91 mln Shiites vers 75 mln Sunnis.
therefore I think it is the best statemnet " the numbers of Sunni and Shia among the Iranian peoples are equally distributed." -- Babakexorramdin 14:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Georgian Orthodox Church is part of Orthodox Cherch, not a separate branch.
Someone shoulkd check the recent edits by Hxseek. They are dubious,. He says for example that there were no such a people as Bosniak prior to the 17th century. So what? There is such a people now. Ethnic groups born and die. Secondly he says that their names are Iranian, while the theories speak on their origins and not on their names, those talks on their names follow only after the assumption of their (partial) Iranic origins. -- Babakexorramdin 22:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Babekex.... The original version was dubious. I just helped the article in good faith to make it more scientific. The mainstream theory connecting Croats and Serbs to Iranic peoples (ie Anceint Iranic peoples in the way of Sarmatians) is the linguistic -naming of the tribes, as i already outlined in the article. Certainly most scholars concluded that even if it was true that the Serbs and Croats were originally Sarmatian tribes, they were already Slavicised by the time they reached the Balkans. There they mixed with more Slavs and Illyrians. So to say that modern Serbs and Croats are even partially descended from Iranian peoples is a bit of a stretch. As for the Bosnians, no one denies that they exist now. All I was stating is that there was no Bosniak tribe back in the migration era (ie back in the 600s), so the discussion about the Iranian influence on peoples in late antiquity and early dark ages time does not directly concern them (although indirectly one may state they too may be partly descended from Iranian tribes because in essense Bosniaks are merely Muslimized Croats and Serbs). Hxseek 11:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Babe.. Im sorry to say, but your knowledge of history is very fundamental. The Bogomils were a heretic religious sect, nothing to do with the origins of Bosniaks. Its just that Bogomilism might have been quite prevalent in Bosnia in the 1000s.
I have noted your previous discussions with people, accusing them of racism and 'unscientific behaviour' because they edited your additions. I suggest that you (1) improve your English (2) acquaint yourself with facts a bit further, then you might not get edited so much. Cheers Hxseek 00:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Hxseek, stop adding nonsense. You want to edit Sarmatism, Scythians#Descent-claims and Theories on the origin of Croats, but stop adding your stuff to this article. dab (𒁳) 11:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
No. As i said, i have made no put in any of the above three sections you refer to. Whether they should be removed or not- I won;t comment becuase I have no active interest in Sarmatism et al. And i totally agree it is impossible to delineate into whom the Sctyhians merged with, or provided partial ancestry to. My feeling is that some people wish to actively find proofs of historical continuity between great ancient civilisations and their compartitively mediocre modern ones. Hxseek 01:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I have been reading all the topics and responses on this post and have to say, I am fascinated. Being a self-described anthropology nut, I have (within the last 6 years) really tried to research the roots of Europeans and have hit more than one brick wall.. Why? the answer is an intuitively obvious one; EUROPEANS ARE VERY MIXED. I have heard every designation for "types" of europeans (i.e. Carlton Coon's "alpine" "Nordic" "Dinaric" "Mediterranean"-which in Coons world would include some physical types reaching from Italy to Iran) and other creative anthropologists. To get to the point, this led me to be interested in the origins of those (also very mixed)living in the fertile cresent and the large areas surrounding it. I began getting irritated and thinking about the "scientific" classification of peoples. Is it really fair for those people (streching from the Isles of Britain, to Iran and beyond) as "caucasian?" I know the history behind the classification, but it is both fallable and based more on conjuncture than any logic. I know many in India feel cheated; their DNA and features show a vast amount of mixing from many peoples. Do Iranians-both as a "Persian" group and as a nation-feel the same way? How fair is it that an Iranian (living in the U.S. particularly) must mark the "White" race box, when asked for his or her ethnicity. I am a White American, and though I recognize that Europeans (including British and Germanic types) have roots from "Cro-Magnon" Europeans, Middle-easterners (although sometimes disputed may have arrived in Europe with Agriculture) and east-asian physical types, they should be allowed to check a box that is more in line-or better describes them. The term "White" (as a census tool) is rediculous and denotes a fair-skinned person. I don't think many people (even scientists) take into account the way this must make people feel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.247.210.100 ( talk) 05:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
we can have a discssion of historical "Slavicisation" or "Turkisation" of Iranian peoples. The "List of Iranian peoples" section is not the proper place for that.
dab
(𒁳)
13:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
With all due respectwhat dbachmann did should not be allowed. he deleted a whole well-sourced section. This asrticle is about Irnian desecnt and not language. Azeris and to some extent Uzbeks)if meant Sarts' are of Iranian descent. The south Slavic speakers are somehow a different story. Although he has a point if he adds tatars here. Tatars do have Iranian blood but so do eastern slavs of Ukraine and southern Russia. Scythian tribes were (one of ) their ancestors. -- Babakexorramdin 08:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Babakexorramdin, the removal by Dbachmann may not have been appropriate in your opinion, however it was not well sourced, well written (it was in a mini-list) or even on topic. This article intends to be primarily about group of people with a common language:
“ | There are an estimated 150 million native speakers of Iranian languages. | ” |
“ | It is largely through linguistic similarities that the Iranian peoples have been linked, as many non-Iranian peoples have adopted Iranian languages and cultures. | ” |
If you think the deleted content needs to be here, or could be moved somewhere else, please do so without getting annoyed, and please stop being uncivil like the above comment to Grandmaster. John Vandenberg 05:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
,,
Well, rather than debating in circles here, the point remains that there is no easy to apply criteria aside from language. I'm fairly certain I am not being biased since Khoikhoi and I were the primary people who made it a featured article and I tried to give an overview not just of the larger Iranian speaking groups like the Persians, Pashtuns and Kurds but also those that vanished etc. in Eurasian steppes. The inclusion of peripheral groups is simply too problematic and I am not disputing that things like Nowruz are Iranian in origin, but since other groups also celebrate it, it's not a reliable criteria either. Nor is dress or even customs and clearly religion isn't either. In addition, before we get into this further, ancestry is itself too tangled in the regions where Iranian peoples reside to make any uniform sense. Obviously, neighbors are related in some capacity and so again we are left with the only indicator that really works, language usage. The intention should be not to simply group people but to explain the origins of a group and their place in history and why they are considered, in some way and in this case largely through language, linked. Since there are no major sources that place non-Iranian speaking groups within the Iranian peoples we are again left with what makes sense, language as the main criteria of inclusion. Tombseye 14:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
It can get very complicated, and postulative, indeed if we start guestimating which modern nations have some minor part of Iranic descendence. An analogy would be to drum on about Spaniards might have ,say, 2% Germanic blood (because of the Visigoths) hence are part German, or -even more strongly- would could classify Romanians and Hungarians as partly slavic, becuase the Slavs provided a large substrate of what now constitutes the mentioned modern nations. To be objective we must somehow draw a line. lanuage, as postulated by some is one way, but clearly this has limiations as language does not equate with genetic ethnic origins. WHile it is interesting to theorize, standards must be met, and we cannot turn the article into a philosophical debate. Hxseek 10:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
We actually have gone over this issue before, but to reiterate, the ethnic group infobox implies that this is a single ethnic group. What's more the figures appear to be unverified as ALL of Iran is included as part of the Iranian peoples (?!) which seems rather biased. In addition, saying that the Iranian peoples MOSTLY speak Persian is inaccurate as the other Iranian languages combined outnumber Persian speakers (Pashtuns, Kurds, Baluchis, Ossetians, etc.). This does not mean that fixing these problems means we can include the infobox though. When this article was made into a featured article there was no infobox because we decided, through consensus, that the Iranian peoples are not an ethnic group, but a series of groups who speak related languages and, to varying degrees have some common historical currents and cultural traits (though by no means everyone of course). Thus, the infobox is not a viable OR useful option here. Tombseye 19:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
All Iranians count them as an Iranian people, inside and outside of Iran, its only pan-turks who say that. Though that section is not refering to lanuage and instead towards ethnicity, so why can't be add Azeris to the list, it offends me as an Azeri not to called Iranian.
Why are those pictures being edited? You say it "violates copyright laws and is not allowed either." Then why does ever other ethnicity page have a picture section yet the Iranian People page is left without one? These pictures have been sourced are accepted into Wikipedia, so why are they not allowed to be used just like in every other Wikipedia ethnicity page? -- Yami Sasha ( talk) 21:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
On the infobox it reads "150 to 250 million". Being off by 100,000 million is quite ridiculous. Also these numbers aren't sourced. Improvement is necesary in these areas. -- Cat chi? 15:28, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
CIA Factbook gives a figure of about 15 million for the Kurds. other estimates vary. There is no evidences that these numbers include the number of Zaza (estimated 2-4 Million people). In addition it can be guessed that some Kurds in major Urban centres are not counted Wether or not they identify themselves as Kurd or Turk. To that number should be added the number of Migrants from Iran, Iraq and Syria (Kurds and persians etc...), so the estimates between 14 and 19 million was a fair estimate -though Kurdish nationalists give too often higher numbers- , in the context of lacking ethnic censuses in Turkey and uncertainty about the number of (often illegal) migrants. -- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 12:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
As I predicted the infobox has created problems. even with references people will just keep changing t because they don't agree with. we're better without it. people can look up the individual groups and their population figures anyway. no point really. Tombseye ( talk) 20:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The thing is why these "problems" always affect Iranian articles? Not many other cultural/national groups other than Iranians encounter so much "problems" -- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 22:59, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
The Hazaras and "Aimaq" are an Iranian people by definition. They speak Iranian languages (in this case: various dialects of Persian) and live within other Iranian-speaking communities since the 13th century AD. While genetic research attests that they are a mix of East Eurasian ("Mongoloid") and West Eurasian ("Caucasoid") peoples, they are still defined as an Iranian people.
Please note that the Turks of Turkey are also defined as a "Turkic people" although they are genetically not related to Central Asian Turkic or Altaic speakers.
The version proposed by Cyrus11 is factually wrong and contains many mistakes.
My mistake I thought Ishkashemis are Ishkashemis and Tajiks are Tajiks...
The Iranian population as a whole was tested, where did it say that?
And also did they actually test 35 million people (males) ? Not a bad job at all...
Everything in the study is may or perhaps or appears, as it says in the study..? S.wells claims he is a branch at the very top in one video, but in another intervju he reveals that he is a r1b dec. He should know better when M45, defined by the marker M3, may be as little as 2,000 years old. Besides your study is from 2001, the study from 2004 reveals much higher r1a1 in Tehran and Isfahan, that is central Iran which is still higher than all Europe excluding east. The study made in Western Iran:
The Iranians sampled here (from the western part of the country) appear to be more similar genetically to Afro-Asiatic-speaking Middle Eastern .
Is it strange whole of West Iran have little gen infl.from r1a1 Indo-Iranians when it´s not even populated by Persians? Iran is not a homogenous country.
Intriguingly haplogroup K born in Iran are the patrilineal ancestors of most of the people living in the Northern Hemisphere, including most Europeans, Asians and Native Americans. The Iranians display considerable haplogroup diversity reinforcing the notion of Persia as a venue for human disseminations (spreading north, east, south and west). Cyrus111 ( talk) 22:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
And why was the source from Marija G erased and a "CN installed" when it clearly states in K. Kuriakis book that she states: The Process of Indo-Europeanization was a cultural, not a physical transformation. It must be understood as a military victory in terms of imposing a new administrative system, language and religion upon the indigenous groups... Maybe he didn´t read it? And explain your meaning of "Tajik Proper"? The Tajik and Persians are Iranic people from Proto-Indo-Iranian times and they are a mix of eachohter from after the Islamic conquest as well read Tajik article and the sources, 79% of Tajikistan are ethnic Tajiks just like 51% of Iran are Persians. I agree its now wrong cause the sources now used are older from 2001 rather than those from 2004 that are more accurate which I used. And where in the 2006 study [11] does it say about language replacement? And also here is the source of R1a1 proper - O - [12]
An English speking person would have a hard time understanding German, this is not the case of Tajik and Farsi speakers, or Dari for that matter. So your example is somewhat off. The speakers of these Iranian languages were part of one nation for a long period of time and are a mix of eachother there, did you bother to read Tajik article and sources?
And also, In the words of Richard Nelson Frye: Many times I have emphasized that the present peoples of Central Asia, have one culture, one religion, one set of social values. Cyrus111 ( talk) 20:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
And here is the part about "language replacement":
You are still using the older study from 2001 because this seems to benefit some sort of agenda for you? Why not use the more recent report where the studies have advanced and are more accurate? Cyrus111 ( talk) 17:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
If you even bother to read the article you will see the changes made that will suit you better and if you bother to read the newer sources you will see the newer results of Nasidze in Tehran and Isfahan. And if you bother to read Karlos. K book as I have outsourced, you will see Marija G:s statement. And again an English speaking person would have a hard time understanding German, this is not the case of Tajik and Farsi speakers, or Dari for that matter. Cyrus111 ( talk) 14:37, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
My claim of early Indo-european mongoloid look is not how you have interpreted it, I was saying they were Eurasian types, read this: [14]
"The assumption that the Indo-Europeans were blue-eyed found some currency when northern Europe was regarded as the original Proto-Indo-European homeland, but placing the homeland in Southwest Asia changes the physical type that must be assumed.
Mongoloid is a very broad def. just like cauc. example, both finnish and Dravids are cauc. this does not mean they resemble eachother, the same with Mongoloid. and NG Illustrated mongoloidic people in ass. with r1a1. should they have showed Bushmen? The fact is r1a1 is not or should not be ass. with any type of look. Why? see the Altaic, they are mongoloidic yet they also have the r1a1 that is also found among Dravidians and Indians Russians and Persians who display var. I am not saying that the altaic people were the branch of Indoeuropeans that went to Persia or India, I am saying that r1a1 carrying people have diversity in appearence. And I was not adding my POV for any specific reason it was a discussion in the discpage.
And here is the qoute from the source that you claim dont show up [15] PAGE 277
And now I even claim that Pasthuns have frequency of R1a1 yes I do, and yes they do Both in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and here is the source that I didn´t present. [16]
And you are still using Spencers older 2001 report, here is the newer one [17]
Please do not revert to that wrong version again
Your current version lacks the data presented giving it a more narrower view.. Cyrus111 ( talk) 12:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The newer report is from Nasidze and its not limited to cauc. it covers the frequency of r1a1 in Tehran and Isfahan something the older study dont. Forget S.Wells he has not been to Iran for a long time use the newer study from Dr. Nasidze Cyrus111 ( talk) 18:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Cyrus, stop pushing this childish "Aryan" nonsense, or you'll just succeed in getting the article de-featured. This is not the place to discuss
Indo-European origins, nor is it the place to discuss
Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA), nor any other haplogroup, in any detail.
dab
(𒁳)
11:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
the classificatoion shows some mistakes: Sariqoli are the socalled Tajiks of China, they along with Shughni, Wakhi, Muni, Yazgulemi and other subdivision form the Pamiri people. this should be fixed-- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 09:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
R1 is an Indo-European Marker. It gave rise to R1a (West European), r1a1 (scythian), and R1b (Turkic/European) groups. (To postulate that R1a1 and R1 are very different bio-groups, indicates a lack of understanding of these typse of studies.)
From: Kivilsid,2003
"Two tribal groups from southern India—the Chenchus and Koyas—were analyzed for variation in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), the Y chromosome, and one autosomal locus and were compared with six caste groups from different parts of India, as well as with western and central Asians. In mtDNA phylogenetic analyses, the Chenchus and Koyas coalesce at Indian-specific branches of haplogroups M and N that cover populations of different social rank from all over the subcontinent. Coalescence times suggest early late Pleistocene settlement of southern Asia and suggest that there has not been total replacement of these settlers by later migrations. H, L, and R2 are the major Indian Y-chromosomal haplogroups that occur both in castes and in tribal populations and are rarely found outside the subcontinent. Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup. Haplotype frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups, from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. The phylogeography of the primal mtDNA and Y-chromosome founders suggests that these southern Asian Pleistocene coastal settlers from Africa would have provided the inocula for the subsequent differentiation of the distinctive eastern and western Eurasian gene pools."
So R1 , R1a, were likely already present in Iranian populations. R1a1 frequency in Ukraine, reflects emmigrating (R1a) Iranian Scythian tribes. Later, the R1a1 scythians could have re-settled on the plateau and left some genetic imprint on Eastern Iranians - we know from history the nomadic scythians tribes re-entered the plateau at some later point. Alternatively, but definetely less likely (because R1a1 diversity is higher in Ukraine), R1a1 may have been present in small percentages of the Eastern Iranian population, who left at some point, and founded a population of Scythians in the area of modern Ukraine. This scenario can explain higher diversity of R1a1 in Ukraine, as a (more or less) pure population of R1a1's can grow/diversify faster.
All of this makes perfect sense, as the cold adapted Caucasoid group, Haplogroup R (evolving in central asia), may have migrated south to the Iranian plateau and the surrounding area, where the land was habitable. At some later point, these R1 derived "Aryan" tribes scattered NW into the baltic (R1a or, less likely, as R1a1), and west into Europe (R1b via Turkey).
The large frequencies of certain haplogroups (R1a, R1b) in Europe do not mean as much as many would like to think. One has to understand that Europe and central asia were largely uninhabitable. High frequencies, without accompanied diversity, usually just suggests a founders effect. From an examination of the pooled diversity and geographic spread of sister clades, Iran and it's surrounding area seems more likely as an IE homeland. Asides, from the Basques (Who are ironically, products of J derived Iranians @ 10,000 ybp), Europeans are a relatively recent group of people. This isn't to say paleolithic genes are not represented in modern day europeans, but it's safe to assume that 70-80% of europes genes are neolithic.
They should rethink the notion that Basques (R1b) aren't genetically similar to IE's. The same with Ashkanzai Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zadeh79 ( talk • contribs) 21:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Zadeh79 ( talk) 21:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)R1 is an Indo-European Marker. It gave rise to R1a (West European), r1a1 (scythian), and R1b (Turkic/European) groups. (To postulate that R1a1 and R1 are very different bio-groups, indicates a lack of understanding of these typse of studies.)
From: Kivilsid,2003
"Two tribal groups from southern India—the Chenchus and Koyas—were analyzed for variation in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), the Y chromosome, and one autosomal locus and were compared with six caste groups from different parts of India, as well as with western and central Asians. In mtDNA phylogenetic analyses, the Chenchus and Koyas coalesce at Indian-specific branches of haplogroups M and N that cover populations of different social rank from all over the subcontinent. Coalescence times suggest early late Pleistocene settlement of southern Asia and suggest that there has not been total replacement of these settlers by later migrations. H, L, and R2 are the major Indian Y-chromosomal haplogroups that occur both in castes and in tribal populations and are rarely found outside the subcontinent. Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup. Haplotype frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups, from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. The phylogeography of the primal mtDNA and Y-chromosome founders suggests that these southern Asian Pleistocene coastal settlers from Africa would have provided the inocula for the subsequent differentiation of the distinctive eastern and western Eurasian gene pools."
From: M. Regueiro (2006)
"From the disparate M198 frequencies observed
for the north and south of Iran, it is possible to envision a
movement southward towards India where the lineage
may have had an influence on the populations south of the
Iranian deserts and where the Dash-e Lut desert would
have played a signifi cant role in preventing the expansion
of this marker to the north of Iran. The lower frequencies
of M198 in the region of Anatolia (11.8% in Greece [27]
and 6.9% in Turkey, with a statistically significant longitudinal
correlation [2] ) and the Caucasus (10% in Georgia,
6% in Armenia and 7% in Azerbaijan) [24] suggests
that population movement was southward towards India
and then westward across the Iranian plateau. In addition,
the detection of rare R1-M173* and R1a-SRY1532 lineages
in Iran at higher frequencies than observed for either
Turkey, Pakistan or India suggests the hypothesis that
geographic origin of haplogroup R may be nearer Persia."
So R1 , R1a, were likely already present in Iranian populations. R1a1 frequency in Ukraine, reflects emmigrating Iranian Scythian tribes.
This makes perfect sense, as the cold adapted Caucasoid group, Haplogroup R (evolving in central asia), may have migrated south during the LGM to the Iranian plateau and the surrounding area, where the land was habitable. At some later point, these R1 derived "Aryan" tribes scattered NW into the baltic (R1a or, less likely, as R1a1), and west into Europe (R1b via Turkey).
The large frequencies of certain haplogroups (R1a, R1b) in Europe do not mean as much as many would like to think. One has to understand that Europe and central asia were largely uninhabitable. High frequencies, without accompanied diversity, usually just suggests a founders effect. From an examination of the pooled diversity and geographic spread of sister clades, and the distribution pattern of R1 and R1a in Iran and it's surrounding area, Iran is a likely candidate as an IE homeland. Asides, from the Basques (Who are ironically, products of J derived Iranians @ 10,000 ybp), Europeans are a relatively recent group of people. This isn't to say paleolithic genes are not represented in modern day europeans, but it's safe to assume that 70-80% of europes genes are neolithic.
They should rethink the notion that Basques (R1b) aren't genetically similar to IE's. The same with Ashkanzai Jews
Why not use some of this research from the Geneticist in the
r1a article since they insist on using Spencers 2001 report where everything in the report is may or perhaps or if so. It doesn´t even include Dr. Nasidzes 2004 report where r1a is covered in Tehran and Isfahan.
Whats to rethink about Ashkenazi Jews? They are Iranian in origin, not necessarily R1a1 Iranian Scythian tribes but being carriers of R2 which is found througout Iran and parts of south Russia .
Among Europeans there are at least two confirmed clusters of R2 individuals among Ashkenazi Jews (This haplogroup is rare among Europeans), which may reflect either an Iranian or a Central Asian (Khazar) origin of a portion of this group. R2 is a Y-chromosome haplogroup characterized by genetic marker M124, and is rarely found outside India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern Central Asia [18]. Cyrus111 ( talk) 14:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Haplogroup M17, also known as R1a1, has proven to be a diagnostic Indo-Iranian marker.[53] The highest R1a1 frequencies are detected in the Central Asian populations of Ishkashemi Tajiks (68%) and Pamiri Tajiks (64%), both groups being remnants of the original Eastern Iranian population of the region.[53][54] Apart from these two groups, the eastern parts of the Iranian Highlands generally reveal the highest frequency of R1a1, up to 35%, similar to Northern India[55], making it higher than South and West Europe and Scandinavia, while Western Iran (excluding major cities like Tehran and Isfahan), [56] appears to have had little genetic influence from the R1a1-carrying Indo-Iranians, about 10%, attributed to language replacement through the "elite-dominance" model in a similar manner which occurred in Europe and India.
Just a comment: we cannot say that R1a is an "Indo-Iranian" marker. The paragraph mentions that there is low frequency of the markers in western europe, scandinavia and (erroneously) southern Europe. R1a rates in southern Europe (ie in Southern Slavs vary from 40 to 15%- very significant rates ! In fact, the highest rates of R1a are found in Sorbs and other Slavic peoples such as Ikraininans and Poles. So one may theorize that is is an Indo-European marker, not solely an Indo-Iranian marker. Hxseek ( talk) 06:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Hxseek, this theory is probably right, there's a large possibility. R1a1 haplo group developed in Western Asia 17.000 years ago defined with mutation M17, which separated it from initial R family. Iran was probably a part of the region where this mutation occured. But in Europe it's usually called East-European or more general Indo-European haplo. All those R1a1 bearers in wide areas of EE were definitely migrators from Asia, the nomads many of them. BTW, establishment of Persian Empire resulted with massive migrations of different groups from the Near-East to the north, lately from the north to Europe. Well, it's perhaps the last massive wave of R1a1 to Europe. Today we recognise many of these R1a1 as Slavic speakers, but it doesn't mean that they were Slavs 2.000 years ago. Zenanarh ( talk) 11:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The following paragraph was the first under "Later developments"
That mess is unrepairable. Its jumping from "ancient times" to the 17th century with nary a care for consistency or precision.
"Ancient times" is what? (why do editors use "ancient" anyway?) Makes no sense in a section titled "Later developments", and the para that followed this one is about a 7th century event. Whats "majority"? Why the restriction to southern Iran? Buddhism in "ancient" times in Afghanistan? (no doubt someone meant Bactria/Sogdiana). The "Judaism and
Nestorian
Christianity" is an anachronistic juxtaposition that can't be resolved. Besides, Iraq didn't exist until the 20th century (presumably someone meant Mesopotamia). And Judaism was all over the place, not just in Mesopotamia. And supposedly Ossetians would "later" convert to Christianity -- later than what? "Ancient"? 20th century?
Crazy. So removed. --
Fullstop (
talk)
01:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Somebody should add Kumzari to the demographics section. The code is too complicated for me, I can't figure out how to add them to the list. -- Kurdo777 ( talk) 10:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Some genetic testings of Iranian peoples have revealed many common genes for most of the Iranian peoples, but with numerous exceptions and regional variations.
Wow, I've seen some stupid things written in wikipedia but I can tell you that this one ranks among the stupidest ones. This is almost funny, I mean we're not talking about citing sources here, we're talking about having the slightest clue of what one is talking about. "Revealed many common genes between Iranian peoples?" WTF? Scientifically the sense that this makes is "all Iranian people have evolved from different species living on the same planet". Common genes are "revealed" between different species, not between different people, for crying out loud. One may "reveal" common genes between human and the fruit fly or the zebrafish or some eukaryotic microorganism like yeast. Saying that there are some common genes between Iranian people is only interesting and makes sense in a world where "Iranian people" stands for a group of humans, birds, fish, insects, bacteria etc. And what would it prove in that world? That the group of distant species described as "Iranian people" have all descended from the same planet. Yeah, evolved from the same earthling prokaryotic cell, none of them are aliens. What a great opening line, and what a great supervision of the article. Miskin ( talk) 04:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
And, wow, I just noticed that this is a FA. No comments, great job wikipedia. Miskin ( talk) 04:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I have reverted and removed the edits of an IP in this section. First of all, because most of it was POV, and secondly, because many of the attached sources were simply misinterpreted to fit the POV. Tājik ( talk) 18:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
No offense, but that is perhaps one of the worst civilization maps I've ever seen. It's ridiculous how it considers the entire continents of North and South America as "western civilization" as well as Russia and Australia - yet it separates Arab and Persian civilizations and Chinese, Japanese, and Korean civilizations. IMO, this is poor historical knowledge at best. Intranetusa ( talk) 17:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Iranic and part od Turkic peoples belong to the same civilizatiuon (another part is closer to the Mongolian Asiatic realm). Arabs and Iranians do not share the same civilization. It conflates in some areas such as Iraq however. North America is Anglo-saxon but south America is different.-- Babakexorramdin ( talk) 07:48, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I spent nearly 10 hours editing the genetic part over a week period yet someone managed to undo all my hard work. I looked at various different sources and have attached source for every single one of these changes/claims. My intentions of changing it was to expand the segment and include all possible haplogroups found in various Iranian groups. Here are the main changes and reason why:
1. y-chromosome haplogroup R1a1 is THEORIZED to be Iranian genetic maker. It is based on Kurgan theory, which says that Iranians originated from south of Russia. The main remains in Kurgan Area is from tribe of """"""Scythian""""". However the modern day descendands of Scythians are Ossetians, who are mainly from """"Haplogroup G""", and not R. G is not even close to R. This is a very big flaw in Kurgan theory. Ossetians are originated from southern Russia. Their migration from South east of Russia to Caucus mountain is so recent (due to Mangol Invasion) and is well documented. Furthermore this theory is not supported by linguistic and archeoogical finding. Another problem is that,even assuming Kurgan is the oldest remain of Iranians, how can a language be spread by one specific haplogroup?? I mean were ancient Iranians from a single race?!did they not mixed with any other race? the answer is YES THEY DID MIX WITH OTHER RACES. even in Kurgan Area although the majority of bones have caucasionid structure, there are some that resemble Far-eastern bone structure. Kurgan theory is weak and though not accurate. The only Europeans who appear to have this haplogroups are Slavs. However in old-Europe people, Such as Italians (Romans),Greeks,French, or even Irish/Scotts, who are all anciet Indo-European communities, the proportion is insignificant. some of the very origional peopling of Europe seem to lack such haplogroup. 2. Haplogroup r1a1 is a y-chromosome haplogroup, does it seem reasonable to assume that even if Iranian language was spread around by one specific haplogroup, it was Y-chrom and not mtDNA ? Diagnosing r1a1 is a classic example of sexisim in science.
3. Please check the main article in wikipedia to see the very big short comings of this theory before putting it in Iranian page as origin of "ALL" Iranians. This is a very huge claim. At least if you put it up as an Iranian maker make sure you point out that it is a THEORY, and NOT FACT. I'm not saying that I think R1a1 is or is not Iranian genetic maker, what I'm saying is that it is still not-a-well-supported-theory.
2. so let's imagine that R1a1 is Iranian maker. But what about the rest of us, from central and Western parts of Iranian plateau, and Anatolia??Y-chromosome I, J2 and others appear to be abundant in Kurds, south of Iran and rest. Another thing is that There are many regional exceptions. For example I can't say that Iranians of Iran belong to a single gene pool,such as R1a1, because each city of Iran appears to show differnet dominant haplogroup, although overall they share many common haplogroups. Let's say the frequency of I happening in Tehran is as high as Scandinavia and the Balkans (35%), but it does not mean that a person from south of Iran is from that Haplogroup.
3. I added haplogroup G to genetic section. This is what majority of Ossetians belong to.They are the single direct desendants of Scythians. It is a very important to add this because this haplogroup appear to show up in variety of Middle-eastern and European communities.
4. There was ""NOTHING"" in this section regarding mtDNA of Iranians, and to whom they trace their maternal ancestory. I looked at different studies, but mainly I took it from Spencer Well's study. PLEASE, PLEASE check his work I pretty much copy pasted the main Ideas. The mains Idea in his study is that Iranians maternal ancestory is mainly from western Euroasia, and not from East or southern asia. Kurds, Lurs, Mazandarani, Gilaki and pathans are close to each other. Feel free to expand the maternal section though.
5. when we are talking about Iranians, we are not talking about Iranians of country of Iran or afghanistan. Iranian include Parsis of India, Zaza of Anatolia, Taylash of Caucas, etc. When these people search for their name on wikipedia they see the Iranian connection. so it is only appropriate to add them to the discussion. That is why I added some specific examples and brought up their names, because in the old genetic page the only people included where Iranians of obviously Aryan countries of Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Iran.
6. I have listed every single source that I used, PLEASE check them and READ them.
7. anybody who has an interested/majored in geneology, go ahead and make changes. I did my best to expand the genetic section, but it could use better analysis and further expansion. I do not claim to have written the best piece of genetic literature. But I strongly oppose undoing it to the old page, as it was ridicious and did not even include y-chromosome or mtDNA haplogroups that exists in modern Iranians. it only featured a single haplogroup, and I strongly disagree with such incomplete work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddd0dd ( talk • contribs) 23:48, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
First of all they have possible conncetion to Iranians. But if we want to put something like that in introduction to Iranians, we might as well put many other stuff such as Taj Mahal in introduction. At least those connections are based on reality. I'm gonna delete the Amazon part from intro and add to "Eastern Iranian" segment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddd0dd ( talk • contribs) 03:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Arcayne, if someone includes factually wrong information in the article (which, by the way, is an FA), then there is no need for consensus. The section about genetics is now filled with factually wrong information, copied from a scientific paper which the author obviously misinterprets. I have no idea why you have boldly reverted to the wrong and POV version (which also includes original research), but I am sure that you have a good explanation for it. Because right now, you are just about to destroy the FA status of the article! If you think that the current POV and OR in the genetics section is correct, then please provide sources - I want exact quotes! If you can't, then I think it's time to call an administrator for help and protect the page against further edits for a while. Tājik ( talk) 22:01, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Tajik thank you for spending 2 weeks going through the papers. I did not make any "claims" genetic section, I just gave a bunch of ratios. If you did not see percentages then it is not my concern, it is a concern between you and your optometrist. I will not put up the ratios up again,nor will I make any changes to "Indo-European roots", seems pointless to argue with you and tell you that each one of these "scientific papers" are giving a different story. -- Ddd0dd ( talk) 03:23, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, a study done in 2001, with excellent sampling.130 people from south of Iran and 33 of North,where ratio of Iranian living in North/South is 3/1, without mentioning actual areas sampled... I through repeating the same point. -- Ddd0dd ( talk) 23:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)-- Ddd0dd ( talk) 00:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
comes from a person with no knowledge in science, genetics, or history. It gets better, an ignorant who didn't even read the attacked papers and lie about reading them first, accuses me of POV, an tells me that that they actually didn't read it. You don't even understand genetic terms, so how can you even question it?! I told you in your page,and let me repeat it to you here. As a person with no background in science, you are not aware of difference between theory, hypothesis, and fact. Go ahead, educate yourself before you leave a comment. There are alternative hypothesis regarding Indo-European origin (including Indo-Iranians). One of them is Kurgan ( haplogroup R1a1, """""""or mtDNA haplogroup N"""", it is not only R1a1), Anatolia ( haplogroup G), and eastern Africa (Haplogroup E)there are at least 2 more that are considerable. Even withing hypothesis framework, and even accepting a certain hypothesis are more accurate, origin of none of these haplogroups are certain. For example R could be from Central Asia, India, Iran or most likely Afghanistan. None of these alternatives are mentioned in this article. Until you take a biology course and read some more, please do me and yourself a favour and quit commenting on something you have NO IDEA about what so ever. Please stick to your area of specialty, whatever it is ( I guess it's checking to revert anything that doesn't have the word Tajik it it). It amazes me how you comment so confidently,talking about something that you don't know S/ about, and even aruge about it. -- Ddd0dd ( talk) 01:14, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
This would be my last reply to you 1.Genetic section has been under criticism for a long time, just check other discussions. Most of what is posted there is written by people with no knowledge of anything science, since it mentions there is a "proven" Indo-Iranian maker.2.Attack?! really?! It's the truth: you are frocefully pushing your ideas on subjects that are out of your reach and your knowledge. You are completly ignorant about scientific matters, yet come here, lie about reading these papers, and then accuse others of POV and attacking you, and then easily dismiss everything others write on basis that this user doesn't know what they are talking about. First of all you haven't even read most of those papers. Second even if you read them you don't understand what they say! tell me, what does conventional phenol-chloroform method mean?! You in no way, shape or form are capable of commenting about other's skills and abilities in an area that you have 0 understanding of. And trust me this is not a personal attack, this is simply a reminder to you to stop making changes to articles that you have limited knowledge of. This page is not your "erse baba". 3.At least I had the curtsy to respect other's opinions ( to be specific YOURS! eventhough you have no idea what you are talking about)and to not enforce my ideas when there was a concern. I probably should had enforced my ideas against yours, but then it was never my intention to worsen this article or get into edit wars I care about what is written in this page and how accurate they are. I want someone with qualifications and knowledge and understanding of subject matter to comment on genetic section. Therefore I'm just gonna cut this nonsense as I'm through with this useless argument, and wait to have a constructive one with that qualified person mentioned previously. Good day to you.-- Ddd0dd ( talk) 13:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted the changes regarding Turkey. I think that sources should be presented. Tājik ( talk) 17:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Ahem, I didn't see any source in previous version? Anyway, the sources are present in Zaza people article. As for Kurds, it's unpublished synthesis in the infobox. -- Mttll ( talk) 00:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The new map on Iranian languages has some major mistakes. I have already contacted its creator, but I just want to mention that it is based on an earlier version made by de:User:Postmann Michael, a banned user of the German Wikipedia known for creating factually wrong maps. Just an example: the proportions given for Afghanistan totally contradict official numbers and most scholarly sources. Kabul and the Panjsher Valley, for example, two of the major centers of the Tajik community, are shown as Pashto speaking. Uzbek- and Persian-speaking areas in the north, where the Pashtun population is a tiny minority, is also shown as Pashto-speaking. The proportions in Iran are also wrong. Zabol, for example, is shown as Baluch-speaking. I suggest to remove or to replace the map. Tajik ( talk) 00:22, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Aren't the Pashtuns part of the Iranian race? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.161.174 ( talk) 16:44, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Every article relating to the Persian Empire, people or cultures, has now been replaced by "Iranic/Iranian." While many may not differentiate between "Persian" and "Iranian," its actually so controversial and even offensive. If you read any wikipedia article relating to this topic, you might think that the current country of Iran laid the foundation to everything of "Persian" origin. While you might argue which term came first, "Persian" should definitely be used instead of Iranian. One simple fact is there are numerous countries, cultures and ethnicities whose origins are "Persian" and there is only one country whose people are actually called "Iranian." So, if you call the origin of all the rest nations to be Iranian, it is almost if you were saying that the current country of Iran is superior to all others and they are the founders of the rest nations culture! While in reality, Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan and other countries all share the same origin, and none of them can claim to be the founders of their culture. I realize this has been a long, long debate, especially for English speakers, Iranian and Persian are just not interchangeable both ways. It seems pretty logical, but somehow people go out of their way to replace every word "Persian" to "Iranian."
So I say, as a Persian, that we reserve the term "Iranian" exclusively to everything related to the currently existing country of Iran, and "Persian" to everything related to the Persian Empire, which Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and other countries, as well as Iran belonged to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.15.52.24 ( talk) 04:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
"The Saka, Scythian, and Tocharian tribes spread as far west as the Balkans and as far east as Xinjiang"
The above statement with reference to the Tocharians taken from the section 'History and Settlement' is at best inappropriate and confusing, at worst grossly inaccurate. The Tocharians are most definitely not an Iranian people (Ref. JP Mallory et al.). In my view this reference to the Tocharians is best omitted.
The history of the Tocharians in the Tarim Basin, as well as their languages, is well-documented. This reference should either be removed or clarified via (an) appropriate footnote(s) referring to relevant academic works or articles. Appropriate cross-references to Wiki-articles which deal with the Tocharians should be included. Geoff Powers ( talk) 11:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Without wishing to appear pedantic, I consider the sentence I quoted to be a tautology, implying that the Tocharians were somehow 'mixed up with' Iranian tribes (Sarmatians, i.e. Iazyges, Roxolani, etc.), subsequently migrating with the latter to the Balkans, when in fact the range of activity of the Tocharians was very narrowly concentrated in East Central Asia. As I suggested above, this reference to the Tocharians should therefore be deleted. Geoff Powers ( talk) 22:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I have reverted an IP anon who had placed a link to Irano-Afghan race on top of the article. Tajik ( talk) 17:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Have you seen [19]? can not we add those who are living inside/near Iran but are not linguistically Iranian?-- Exerting ( talk) 02:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC) To clarify, I should say no, that is why this page is not called PEOPLE OF IRAN.-- Exerting ( talk) 03:03, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I have removed the section "Semitic roots". First of all, because it is a misinterpretation of the source (it talks of Afro-Asiatic, while - in fact - the major people in the region prior to the Aryan dominance were the Elamites. Secondly, the info was not new. The quote is used in the next paragraph ("Indo-European roots"), explaining that scholars favor the "elite dominance" model and consider the central deserts of Iran as "barriers". Tajik ( talk) 05:15, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
On a side note, I am not an expert on the issue, but I think we should get rid of the entire Genetics section. It's racialist material that serves no real purpose, and is not a necessary component to a page that's about an ethnolinguistic grouping. What does everyone else think? -- Kurdo777 ( talk) 22:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Genetic evidence proves Iranians (from Iran) have 2 genetic sources Semitic and so called Indo-European with semitic origin being much larger why have section on smaller group without having section on larger group? The Count of Monte Cristo ( talk) 05:38, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Amazing how the genetic section is written based on an 8 year old paper. Is there any newer paper this article could use?-- 74.12.101.44 ( talk) 01:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Iranians are NOT semitic. While there are some Arab Iranians and Arabs living in Iran, the majority of Iranians who are ethnic Iranians are Aryan. Many scholars believe that these Elamites were either mostly wiped out or pushed out of Iran into Iraq, which was under the Persian Empire for a while. Majority of Northern and Central Iranians are Aryan. You have some Arabs living in Iran or are Arab-descent Iranians by nationality only - not ethnic Iranians. Trust me, you can tell the difference in race. And most Iranians do not race mix. While most people in the world have some mixture, it is still maybe 13% or less (mostly Asian blood). Cyrus the Great even allowed the Jews to live under the empire in isolation, under his protection (human rights). Some Iranians are a mixture of Nordic, Mediterranean, Alpine, etc. Like some of their Eastern European cousins, there is some asian admixture. There are separate mongolian descent Iranians in the far East, and people who are descendent of slaves (blacks) living in Southern Iran - deep south. I myself am of Haplogroup HV2, which is a European group and Mediterranean group. Macedonians, Greeks, Iranians, Austrians, Anatolians (White Turks), as well as Basques and Eastern Europeans are part of this group. Germans today call Iranians "brother". Many southern Germans, especially are mostly Alpine as well. There are a lot more mediterranean and Alpine Iranians than Nordic, but it's there. Greeks, Celts, Iranians, Northern Indians, Slavs, Germans, etc. are genetic cousins. It is also said that Croatians are closely related like the Greeks. Many Celts also passed through Northern Iran. Celts are closely related to Basque people.-- 69.149.75.198 ( talk) 07:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
The north nostratic indo-european marker is haplotype J2,J1 is south nostratic semitic marker and R is very old pre-nostratic=Dene-Caucasian.
But of course Iranians are linguistically a mix and creolisation of proto-indoeuropean Iranic mixed and spoken by Dene-Caucasian speaking R haplogroup carriying persons.
R haplogroup is found everywhere in the world ans it's very ancient. Humanbyrace ( talk) 10:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
What is the scope of this article? Is it Iranian as in the people of Iran or Iranic as in an ethno-linguistic sense? The article is confusing since it seems to jump between the two. For example it includes Azeris who are a people of Iran therefore Iranian in a political sense but also includes Kurds of Turkey who are not Iranian in a political sense but Iranic ethnolinguistically. It also includes Uzbeks who are neither Iranian politically nor ethno-linguistically. One could argue it is cultural but that is highly dubious associating generic shared practises of different peoples to a State.
If it is political, then it should only include those peoples associated with the Republic of Iran and remove those outwith the political boundaries of Iran
If it is ethnic then it should be renamed to Iranic peoples and remove the non-Iranic peoples from the article
If it is cultural then it shouldn't be called Iranian.
Xaghan (
talk)
00:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Hazaras are a turko-mongol people. How can they be iranians if they are descended from Genghis Khan??? If a family of black africans move to afghanistan and they speak farsi they would still be black africans. Time Buddha ( talk) 17:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
and why is the pakistani controlled region of kashmir shown as part of india on the following map?
File:Moderniranianlanguagesmap.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Time Buddha ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
in this by User:Tajik, i noticed it was about a section which stated that azeris were iranian peoples even though they speak turkic language because they descend from iranians. On the article Hazaras, User:Tajik has been pushing POV edits on how hazaras are iranian peoples and he says on the talk page that its because they just speak iranian language even though they descend from mongols. Time Buddha ( talk) 04:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Please change it to "people" otherwise "PEOPLE" wouldn't even bother themselves to read this article. Also Iranian is not an ethnic group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.153.45 ( talk) 14:40, 10 October 2009 (UTC)