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Someone has again gotten rid of many (all perhaps) of the instances where "prostitute" was used. I do not see anything wrong with the word prostitute. It implies no value judgement. "Woman working in prostitution" even uses essentially the same term, but is far longer with no increase in information. I think this is bad form. Opinions of others? Aleta 20:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The rule I've tried to follow is that any time I'd use the word "plumber" in a comparable (but obviously hypothetical) case, I'd use the word "prostitute". I really don't buy the idea that "prostitute" carries any intrinsic value judgement (unlike the word "whore", for example), and "woman working in prostitution" is just suboptimal writing, just as "woman working in plumbing" is much worse than "plumber". — Matt Crypto 00:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a serious point of discussion here, and it is not about people working to "personal agendas". The non-tabloid media in the UK has generally avoided labelling the victims as prostitutes. Matthew Parris, writing in the Times has made similar points to Ms medusa. Even the Wikipedia manual of style says "If possible, terms used to describe people should be given in such a way that they qualify other nouns. Thus, black people, not blacks; gay people, not gays; and so forth." I think that "working in prostitution" rather than "prostitute" is a good interpretation of this guideline. I have some sympathy with the "plumber test". However, if Gemma Adams had been a plumber, would the section have started "On 2 December 2006, the body of Gemma Adams, a 25-year-old plumber...", or would her occupation only have been mentioned later in the paragraph? Bluewave 10:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The significance of the women working in prostitution is not established. The nature of their occupation makes them easier targets amongst the wider female population. If it is determined that the killer(s) acted with a pathological hatred of prostitutes then their occupation would be significant, otherwise it only establishes that they were easily victimised and it should not be made the central focus of their identities. Fanx 00:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Should we be saying as a fact that all these women were prostitutes? Were they all convicted of prostitution? Maybe we should say "Police say ___was a prostitute" BobTrout5th 15:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Please check it out its yer mans page mirrored. Owwmykneecap 04:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
please vote on whether it should be in the page or not, as it will just get reverted by 1 person otherwise. Owwmykneecap 04:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Two editors (one anon, one admin, perhaps the same?) have removed the Atlantic City link section. Two different editors have put it back. It meets WP:VERIFY, although there appears to be no conclusive link. Discuss...! Budgiekiller 13:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed that all the names in this article are in boldface. Is there any reason for this? .V. 03:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Fixed it, SqueakBox 03:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Not according to wiki style guide, it makes the article look unwikipedia like and hence amateurish. please dont revert me on this one as we msut follow the guidelines for all articles, SqueakBox 22:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Whoops. No unpleasantness intended, SqueakBox 23:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I added a line about Karen McGregor in the "links to other possible victims" section, citing the same article as the one on Diane McInally. I just copied & pasted the citation. I know there's a better way to do it, but don't know exactly how. If someone would fix it for me, I'd appreciate it. Aleta 21:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
News just in, will edit as appropriate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.3.233.40 ( talk) 22:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC).
The correct spelling of the accused's first name is "Steven" according to the CPS and Suffolk Police: [2] As they know his precise date of birth I presume they have checked the spelling as well. Sam Blacketer 22:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I see we have his date of birth and when we get some details about him I would recommend he gets his own article, SqueakBox 22:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Its notability that counts and suspect wouldnt be a good name, SqueakBox 22:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I doubt it very much. Its based in Miami and so doesnt count. I personally am outseide tehe UK too, SqueakBox 22:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I dont think it is a matter of vultures. if he did it he gets zero sympathy for me. Wikipedia has to stick to tight guuidelines such as verifiability, NPOV and notability sio it would be far fetched to claim irresponsibnility is likely to come from us, SqueakBox 23:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Sure, if he did it. There's a real common theme in the UK to name male suspects of any crime. Tom Stephens will never be removed from this now. Oh well, we live in interesting times... Budgiekiller 23:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I've personally pointed out too many mistakes the |BBC has made to rely on them when Sky [3] and the police say Steven or Steve, SqueakBox 23:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
He is now not nbotable enough for the opening and I have edited him out. he should remain in the article, of course, SqueakBox 22:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me or this talk page getting a bit long? Anyone think it is time to archive it and start afresh? -- GracieLizzie 23:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, all major news outlets are saying "Stephen Wright", which is legitimately abbreviated to "Steve Wright". So what do we do. The article for him now already exists here - Steve Wright (suspect) which inevitably will change one way or the other. So two things. What's his name, and do we need to rename his article? Budgiekiller 23:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Because it is ambiguous it is right to call him Steve. This debate needs to be in the Steve Wright article. We can and will move the name and the whole title when the time is right, SqueakBox 00:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Now that Steven Wright will be charged with the five murders, it seems that the investigation has come to a close or is coming to a close. Because of this, I believe the time has come or is coming to rename this article, perhaps to 2006 Ipswich murders. Any views on this? A ecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 00:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Please DISCUSS major changes to this article before making substantial edits - particularly in resepect of the legal process. there are serious consequences for Wikipedia, and its credibility as an encyclopaedia if you don't.
Escaper7 11:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
While we must abide by wikipedia standards the statement that "there are serious consequences for Wikipedia, and its credibility as an encyclopaedia" is simply not credible as a statement, especially given the way ther UK press are behaving; wikipedia's repuation will not stand or fall by this article, either within or outsdide the UK and to pretend it will strikes me as dishonest, SqueakBox 19:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone posted a URL citation for "The Suffolkator". It was showing as a broken template, being just a URL within braces. I changed it to brackets, making it a link. It is not in proper citation form though. When I tried to do that, I messed it all up, and just reverted myself to make it a link again. Could someone do this properly, please? Aleta 17:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Some lines of the time line have a bullet point followed by the date followed by a dash (-) followed by the info. Others have no dash but the info on the next line and an indented bullet point. This isn't all done the same and therefore I'm changing it to all be on separate lines with bullet points. If someone thinks it should be done the other way they can change it so it's all dashed. ( Just The Q ) 20:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed Wright's street address from the article. I don't think we should be publishing that. See talk page for his article for more discussion. Aleta 05:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I've altered the headings and sub-headings slightly so that it all makes more sense chronologically. I've added the section "Court appearances" to take in the first magistrate's hearing and the crown court hearing. I've taken out the ref to Wright going on trial. He's not on trial yet as he could plead guilty. (see Wikipedia is not a crystal ball) [5]. Escaper7 16:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
"...After the recent report by Dectective Inspector David Netherton,..." This line was removed - not sure why it was added, if anyone knows why and can source it please re-insert it. Note Wikiusername of contributor who added it. Escaper7 15:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Someone has again gotten rid of many (all perhaps) of the instances where "prostitute" was used. I do not see anything wrong with the word prostitute. It implies no value judgement. "Woman working in prostitution" even uses essentially the same term, but is far longer with no increase in information. I think this is bad form. Opinions of others? Aleta 20:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The rule I've tried to follow is that any time I'd use the word "plumber" in a comparable (but obviously hypothetical) case, I'd use the word "prostitute". I really don't buy the idea that "prostitute" carries any intrinsic value judgement (unlike the word "whore", for example), and "woman working in prostitution" is just suboptimal writing, just as "woman working in plumbing" is much worse than "plumber". — Matt Crypto 00:28, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I think there is a serious point of discussion here, and it is not about people working to "personal agendas". The non-tabloid media in the UK has generally avoided labelling the victims as prostitutes. Matthew Parris, writing in the Times has made similar points to Ms medusa. Even the Wikipedia manual of style says "If possible, terms used to describe people should be given in such a way that they qualify other nouns. Thus, black people, not blacks; gay people, not gays; and so forth." I think that "working in prostitution" rather than "prostitute" is a good interpretation of this guideline. I have some sympathy with the "plumber test". However, if Gemma Adams had been a plumber, would the section have started "On 2 December 2006, the body of Gemma Adams, a 25-year-old plumber...", or would her occupation only have been mentioned later in the paragraph? Bluewave 10:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The significance of the women working in prostitution is not established. The nature of their occupation makes them easier targets amongst the wider female population. If it is determined that the killer(s) acted with a pathological hatred of prostitutes then their occupation would be significant, otherwise it only establishes that they were easily victimised and it should not be made the central focus of their identities. Fanx 00:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Should we be saying as a fact that all these women were prostitutes? Were they all convicted of prostitution? Maybe we should say "Police say ___was a prostitute" BobTrout5th 15:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Please check it out its yer mans page mirrored. Owwmykneecap 04:10, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
please vote on whether it should be in the page or not, as it will just get reverted by 1 person otherwise. Owwmykneecap 04:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Two editors (one anon, one admin, perhaps the same?) have removed the Atlantic City link section. Two different editors have put it back. It meets WP:VERIFY, although there appears to be no conclusive link. Discuss...! Budgiekiller 13:12, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed that all the names in this article are in boldface. Is there any reason for this? .V. 03:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Fixed it, SqueakBox 03:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Not according to wiki style guide, it makes the article look unwikipedia like and hence amateurish. please dont revert me on this one as we msut follow the guidelines for all articles, SqueakBox 22:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Whoops. No unpleasantness intended, SqueakBox 23:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I added a line about Karen McGregor in the "links to other possible victims" section, citing the same article as the one on Diane McInally. I just copied & pasted the citation. I know there's a better way to do it, but don't know exactly how. If someone would fix it for me, I'd appreciate it. Aleta 21:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
News just in, will edit as appropriate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.3.233.40 ( talk) 22:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC).
The correct spelling of the accused's first name is "Steven" according to the CPS and Suffolk Police: [2] As they know his precise date of birth I presume they have checked the spelling as well. Sam Blacketer 22:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I see we have his date of birth and when we get some details about him I would recommend he gets his own article, SqueakBox 22:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Its notability that counts and suspect wouldnt be a good name, SqueakBox 22:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I doubt it very much. Its based in Miami and so doesnt count. I personally am outseide tehe UK too, SqueakBox 22:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I dont think it is a matter of vultures. if he did it he gets zero sympathy for me. Wikipedia has to stick to tight guuidelines such as verifiability, NPOV and notability sio it would be far fetched to claim irresponsibnility is likely to come from us, SqueakBox 23:07, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Sure, if he did it. There's a real common theme in the UK to name male suspects of any crime. Tom Stephens will never be removed from this now. Oh well, we live in interesting times... Budgiekiller 23:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I've personally pointed out too many mistakes the |BBC has made to rely on them when Sky [3] and the police say Steven or Steve, SqueakBox 23:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
He is now not nbotable enough for the opening and I have edited him out. he should remain in the article, of course, SqueakBox 22:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me or this talk page getting a bit long? Anyone think it is time to archive it and start afresh? -- GracieLizzie 23:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, all major news outlets are saying "Stephen Wright", which is legitimately abbreviated to "Steve Wright". So what do we do. The article for him now already exists here - Steve Wright (suspect) which inevitably will change one way or the other. So two things. What's his name, and do we need to rename his article? Budgiekiller 23:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Because it is ambiguous it is right to call him Steve. This debate needs to be in the Steve Wright article. We can and will move the name and the whole title when the time is right, SqueakBox 00:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Now that Steven Wright will be charged with the five murders, it seems that the investigation has come to a close or is coming to a close. Because of this, I believe the time has come or is coming to rename this article, perhaps to 2006 Ipswich murders. Any views on this? A ecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 00:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Please DISCUSS major changes to this article before making substantial edits - particularly in resepect of the legal process. there are serious consequences for Wikipedia, and its credibility as an encyclopaedia if you don't.
Escaper7 11:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
While we must abide by wikipedia standards the statement that "there are serious consequences for Wikipedia, and its credibility as an encyclopaedia" is simply not credible as a statement, especially given the way ther UK press are behaving; wikipedia's repuation will not stand or fall by this article, either within or outsdide the UK and to pretend it will strikes me as dishonest, SqueakBox 19:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone posted a URL citation for "The Suffolkator". It was showing as a broken template, being just a URL within braces. I changed it to brackets, making it a link. It is not in proper citation form though. When I tried to do that, I messed it all up, and just reverted myself to make it a link again. Could someone do this properly, please? Aleta 17:08, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Some lines of the time line have a bullet point followed by the date followed by a dash (-) followed by the info. Others have no dash but the info on the next line and an indented bullet point. This isn't all done the same and therefore I'm changing it to all be on separate lines with bullet points. If someone thinks it should be done the other way they can change it so it's all dashed. ( Just The Q ) 20:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed Wright's street address from the article. I don't think we should be publishing that. See talk page for his article for more discussion. Aleta 05:40, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
I've altered the headings and sub-headings slightly so that it all makes more sense chronologically. I've added the section "Court appearances" to take in the first magistrate's hearing and the crown court hearing. I've taken out the ref to Wright going on trial. He's not on trial yet as he could plead guilty. (see Wikipedia is not a crystal ball) [5]. Escaper7 16:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
"...After the recent report by Dectective Inspector David Netherton,..." This line was removed - not sure why it was added, if anyone knows why and can source it please re-insert it. Note Wikiusername of contributor who added it. Escaper7 15:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)