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Hi - I've recently expanded this page substantially. If anyone has any comments, I'd love to hear them. It'd be great if someone who has researched the Glacier View controversy could expand that section further as well. Tonicthebrown 07:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I've done some more updating - what do you think? Tonicthebrown 13:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
A lecturer at Avondale College told me that during his 1979 Pacific Union College address, Ford said that the 1844 date could not be derived from Hebrews. Apparently, a year later at Glacier View, the church had moved on to accept this earlier position of Ford; although by this time Ford himself had moved substantially further. Is this correct? If so (and a citation would be better), it would make a good addition IMO. (I haven't read/listened to the 1979 address or Glacier View yet.) Regards, Colin MacLaurin 13:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I just found a comment that "Leaving the Adventist Ministry" by Peter Ballis, professor of sociology at Monash University in Australia, is one of the best sources regarding the fallout from the Glacier View controversy; in a blog post which I assume is by the editor of Spectrum. It would be good to incorporate this work sometime. Colin MacLaurin 16:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I found these comments by User:CheerfulPaul on Talk:Great Disappointment as of now "The date October 22 is not mentioned in the Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists. In fact Ellen White (co-founder) only mentions the season of fall, and some Adventists believe(d) that the investigative judgment began in the spring of 1844 ( see [2], #70) I found out that Seventh-day Adventist scholars seem to favor the Millerite date of October 22, but that doesn't seem worth mentioning in this article. Maybe it could say "Many Seventh-day Adventists maintain..."? It seemed easier just to remove the date as it requires too much explanation to connect it to a specific source."
Good content to verify and then (presumably) add. Colin MacLaurin 18:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand even the basics of what investigative judgment is from reading the first two sentences, and I do not want to read the entire article. The second sentence already begins to speak of the history of IJ, when it should probably explain a bit more about what IJ is (without requiring us to move to a separate linked page) before moving on. Sincerely, One humble end user's opinion Jinjit82 ( talk) 01:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I'd just like to raise a few points about the new section ("other views")
I guess I feel that all the fine detail just complicates things and is unnecessary. It would be better to keep things simple: Adventists officially teach that the investigative judgment began in 1844 (precise season or date irrelevant), and this is supported by the ATS in their constitution as well as other scholars. Some Adventists however (the progressives) do not agree with the doctrine, full stop. What do you think? Tonicthebrown 14:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
My changes today:
W. W. Prescott suggested that the investigative judgment occurred in the spring, and not autumn, in one of his numerous suggested editorial revisions of the 1911 edition of the book. In point 70, he declared
also arguing it was the original interpretation of Miller. This suggestion was rejected.
Tonicthebrown 12:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
References
Further to what I said above, here is a claim by Des Ford from his interview with Atoday [3]
I did not try to edit the main page because I am sure the edit would have been reversed. However, I did want to make the following point about the Sanctuary and the judgment. On the John Ankerberg Show in the early 80s, Walter Martin debated Dr. William Johnsson, an Australian adventist professor who had known Desmond Ford very well. During the Martin/Johnsson debate, Martin recalled a 1957 meeting with Ted Heppenstall, William Murdoch, and George Canon. Canon was then a graduate student in NT Greek brought in by the Barnhouse team. Canon read a passage out of the Greek NT from Hebrews 9 and got Murdoch and Heppenstall to agree that Christ completed the atonement at the Ascension. 1844 was not in the Greek text of Hebrews. Johnsson, who had written a dissertation in NT Studies on Hebrews 9 and 10, gave a rather weak reply concerning the Greek word "agia" and how it can be translated as "sanctuary. " Conservative adventists have spent 54 years arguing over this passage of Greek, but a reading of Hebrews 9&10 in plain English seems to favor Martin's view. In my view the distinctive doctrines of the SDA church were developed by laymen with no specialized knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, ANE history, archeology, or Egyptology. Of course, any Adventist is free to ASSUME the truth of her church's doctrines. My point is this- if such great Adventist professors as Heppenstall and Murdoch were willing to admit that the Greek text of the NT has nought to do with the doctrines of Ellen White, then why would Adventists expect nonadventists to take the claims surrounding 1844 seriously at all? Need I remind us that Crozier, a young man who helped write out the Sanctuary doctrine, became an anti-adventist crusader later on. Miller himself disavowed his past views and explicitly rejected Ellen White and her claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.30.209.199 ( talk) 01:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
And here is what John McLarty (editor of AToday) has to say in Adventist Today vol 14, issue 6.
Tonicthebrown 11:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I propose that a lot of content be added to the "Glacier View controversy" section, and that when large enough it be branched out to a new article with a "summary style" left behind, per the policies. Numerous articles link to this precise topic, such as Desmond Ford, Robert Brinsmead, possibly History of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Seventh-day Adventist theology, and probably many others including potentials. There has been a lot of material written about those events both for and against, which I believe merits such focus. Also, it has been considered one of the most (possibly the most) damaging/controversial events in the history of the Adventist church. Colin MacLaurin 17:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
25 year anniversary Sydney Adventist Forum report Colin MacLaurin 10:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Before his death Walter Martin was investigating the White Estate. An allegation was made that Arthur White was editing out views and editorials written by Sister White if they were embarrasing. I see a contradiction here. There is sort of an informal rule against publically criticizing Ellen White for any reason, especially if you work for the 7DA church. On the other hand, the denomination seeks to actively expunge writings that would put Sister white in a bad light by modern standards. Most "pew adventists" who have never read Ford and Rea are blissfully ignorant of church history and the hierarchy wants to keep them so. On the other hand, the explosive growth of the Seventh Day Adventist Church in the third world bespeaks the fact that the global church is more christocentric and less Ellen White centric. Last time I went to an sda service the preacher was Korean and in his sermon he did not quote or cite EG White once. How is it possible to evaluate the IJ doctrine when many primary materials on the "shut door" have been destroyed or hidden? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.80.25.62 ( talk) 16:51, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I've removed this from the article. I feel it is WP:Opinion and therefore not really encyclopedic, at least not for the "history" section which should be hard facts only. Perhaps it can be fitted in elsewhere, maybe in critcism? (Is it a veiled criticism?) Tonicthebrown ( talk) 04:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Alden Thompson has commented,
The assertion it is a "pillar" is overemphasized in the lead, I believe. To illustrate, this language is not used in the 28 Fundamentals. I do believe however there is room for a brief mention in the lead.
Also I don't consider "the church has reconfirmed its original position of this doctrinal pillar since 1980" to be correct, in that the doctrine has changed over time. What is has done is confirm the IJ, but I wouldn't say "its original position" in all areas, e.g. literal/figurative building in heaven.
Finally, it has always been controversial throughout the history of the church, not just recently. I have made some changes to reflect these comments. With all additions, please reliably source any contributions, stating all major points of view. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 04:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm adding material from Raymond Cottrell as I slowly work through his article. This is a work-in-progress: I look forward to a greater variety of sources being used. I encourage other editors to " be bold" also! Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 13:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
To be more specific, I believe the article is currently weighted to a critical bias. Material is neutral and reasonably cited, it's just that more weight is given to that point-of-view. I encourage other editors to expand the positive point-of-view. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 14:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I have simplified this section. The details about the 69 and 70 week periods terminating at the baptism/death of Jesus etc. are not relevant to 1844 and the Investigative Judgment, and I have noted in any case that the material is already exactly replicated in the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks article where it belongs. Also, these details about 27 AD and so on are not explained in the book Seventh-day Adventists Believe, which is the denomination's official book on doctrine -- the reason for this, as I understand it, is that recent scholarship has challenged the accuracy of those dates. [i.e. the baptism of Jesus is now dated at AD 29, and Jesus' death at AD 33] Current Adventist scholarship no longer defends the old dates, and argues that the terminus of the 70 weeks prophecy is only approximate. Tonicthebrown ( talk) 04:17, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
This material might be helpful and broadly relevant; however it is not presented in an encyclopedic manner -- i.e. it reads somewhat like a story and lacks adequate citation; also it is only a single man's point of view. I have removed it from the article until it can be improved. Tonicthebrown ( talk) 08:12, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Also regarding the recent additions, Venden is a significant Adventist author, known for his emphasis on God's grace. I consider him a relevant source for this article. However a couple of lines is due weight, not whole paragraphs. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 14:33, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Removed material:
For a long time people have had held a primitive concept of what the pre-advent judgment is all about, thinking of it primarily in terms of God judging us and deciding our eternal destiny. God is perceived as rushing through the books since 1844, trying to get through all the names before the end of the world. But, God already “knows who are his,” and certainly doesn't need years and years to pore over the books. [1]
Instead, there are bigger issues involved in the judgment than just us humans. A mature understanding of the purpose of the pre-advent judgment includes us, the entire universe, and even for God Himself.
It has been noted that the saved will experience some big surprises in heaven. Friends and family they knew and loved may not be present! And some they knew could not make it are there! They will have looked at the only thing mankind can look at, the outward appearance.
But God wants them to understand the human heart and to see it as He sees it. The records of the investigative judgment will be open for all. They will be able to see as God can see, and understand the justice of His government as well as His great love. In this way they will be present at the pre-advent judgment. God treats the human race as intelligent beings. He doesn't ask for blind trust or blind obedience. He can be trusted now and forever because that trust is based on complete understanding. God has made provision for people to stand on a sea that looks like glass and thoughtfully, honestly say, "Great and marvelous are thy works, ...just and true are your ways." God is interested not only in justifying sinners, but in being just at the same time. The cross and the complete atonement justify God in forgiving anyone.
A case will never come to trial without a prosecutor. A legally authorized government sanctioned prosecutor needs the judgment context--in fact, demands it to ensure that justice is done, that the innocent are not condemned and that the guilty do not escape justice. In Matthew 12:33-34 Christ states that mankind is held accountable for every word spoken, and that "by your words you shall be justified and by your words you shall be condemned". In John 12:48 Christ says that His Word will judge mankind in the last days.
In the Bible we see that there are also false witnesses and false accusers. In Revelation 12 the false accuser of God's people is the enemy, the dragon, the serpent called the Devil and Satan. We see this again in Daniel 7 and 8 in the form of the little horn persecuting and accusing the people of God in all ages. Yet there will come a time when even the devil himself will bow and acknowledge the justice and fairness of God. “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow...; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Emphasis added) Philippians 2:10, 11
All who watch a case in court need the assurance that justice is being dealt. If those who observe are unable to see justice in the decisions, their confidence in the judge is undermined. If the people who are being governed do not have confidence in the justice of their rulers, there's going to be a problem. The pre-advent judgment justifies God in forgiving the ones who get forgiven. Not everyone is forgiven--only those who accept forgiveness are forgiven. God doesn't force His forgiveness on anybody. It must be accepted, and on a continuing basis. The pre-advent judgment reveals to the universe those who have accepted and continue to accept His justifying grace.
The final One who needs the judgment is God Himself. The judgment is "his judgment"--God's judgment. God has been accused before the universe. The "accuser of the brethren" is also the accuser of God and has been hurling his accusations at the God as unfair, unjust, and unreasonable. In order for God to be vindicated, in order for the entire universe, including us, to see that God is indeed a God of love and justice, in order to make the universe forever safe from sin and its results, the investigative judgment must take place.
References
Exactly what changes did Heppenstall and others cause? More details would improve the article. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 14:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
How many lay Adventists of today have any idea that their church actively taught against the Holy Trinity? How many "little people" who put their tithes in the collection plate on Saturday mornings know that many of their legendary founders were arians, semiarians, and adoptionists? I think that the Denominational hierarchy wants their own people to know as little as possible about any real history concerning pre-1888 Adventism. Part of the problem is that the Second Advent movement anticipated the return of the Savior in their own lifetimes. The "shut door" idea and the lack of clarity on the God head are symptomatic of a church that expected to last only a generation. They were left a hornet's nest of difficulties because of the delay of the Parousia and the need to become an institutional church. The early church had to deal with doctrines and dogmas as generation after generation passed without the Second Coming actually taking place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.30.209.199 ( talk) 00:31, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi there, the source #6 seems to be dead ( http://sdanet.org/atissue/doctrines/inves-judgment.htm). Can someone find an alternative source or delete this part out of the article? -- Thekryz ( talk) 21:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I can find no definition of "investigative judgment". Probably because the formulations trying to define "investigative judgment" assumes too much knowledge of the reader, f.ex. this from the intro:
What? Who are judging whome? Are "professed Christian believers" ― whatever that means in the 7dA-context ― judging anything, or are they judged, or both? If they aren't judging themselves, who is/are judging? What qualities of /unknown-object/ are evaluated in this judging context? When the judgement is done, what happens next? ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 18:47, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
There have been several POV edits with no sources to back them up. Also, There is too much reliance on a single source--Cottrel--need more sources to back up his POV. Allenroyboy ( talk) 14:33, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I changed the "Counter Arguments" section title to "Adventist Response to Critics" since it is confusing as to whether "counter arguments" is a reference to the subject - or to the Critics.
If one assumes that the primary focus of the article is "the critics" then "counter arguments" is clearly addressed to the critics. But IF the primary purpose is the actual subject of the article (in this case the "Investigative Judgment" doctrine) then "Counter Arguments" would be "counter" to the I.J -- not counter to some critic. I have changed the section title to point out that this is supposed to be Adventist response to critics. BobRyan777 ( talk) 14:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi, all. I noticed that this article has numerous external links (links to off-wiki sites) in the body of the article. That's not permitted by our external links policy, which says, among other things, "Wikipedia articles may include links to web pages outside Wikipedia (external links), but they should not normally be used in the body of an article." One of the reasons for this policy, as I understand it, and the reason all our articles have a separate section just for external links, is that we want our readers to know when clicking on a link will take them offsite. If regulars on this article want to keep the information present in the in-the-body-of-the-article links, they'll need to convert those links to references using, for example, the "cite book" template for Bible verses. Best regards, – OhioStandard ( talk) 12:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi Simbagraphix, thank you for your constructive revisions, which improve the quality of the article rather than taking an axe to it. I think that this is the best way to move forward. Tonicthebrown ( talk) 13:00, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
I found this article while looking for LDS Investigative Judgement belief information. The article is very technical and concentrates mainly on the controversial aspects and personalities who have contributed to the Investigative Judgement controversy and the doctrine. At the moment every single paragraph seems to be about controversy. I appreciate this is an excellent source of information for church members but it is unsuited to a beginner.
A beginner - like me - needs to know what the current position is and then the beliefs and practical implications which derive from that. The article is very short on practical implications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.34.224 ( talk) 00:55, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the comment, I've taken the liberty to add a tag at the top the of the article. I agree that every paragraph is about controversy (way too much), this article needs a rewrite IMHO. Willfults ( talk) 01:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
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a decent explanation is provided here /info/en/?search=Heavenly_sanctuary#Official_position
why on earth, with all the words in this article, can you say something simple like There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:192:4200:1E42:4D03:E775:34BD:19AD ( talk) 21:16, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
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I propose to merge Pre-advent_judgment into this article Investigative_judgment.
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Hi - I've recently expanded this page substantially. If anyone has any comments, I'd love to hear them. It'd be great if someone who has researched the Glacier View controversy could expand that section further as well. Tonicthebrown 07:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I've done some more updating - what do you think? Tonicthebrown 13:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
A lecturer at Avondale College told me that during his 1979 Pacific Union College address, Ford said that the 1844 date could not be derived from Hebrews. Apparently, a year later at Glacier View, the church had moved on to accept this earlier position of Ford; although by this time Ford himself had moved substantially further. Is this correct? If so (and a citation would be better), it would make a good addition IMO. (I haven't read/listened to the 1979 address or Glacier View yet.) Regards, Colin MacLaurin 13:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I just found a comment that "Leaving the Adventist Ministry" by Peter Ballis, professor of sociology at Monash University in Australia, is one of the best sources regarding the fallout from the Glacier View controversy; in a blog post which I assume is by the editor of Spectrum. It would be good to incorporate this work sometime. Colin MacLaurin 16:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I found these comments by User:CheerfulPaul on Talk:Great Disappointment as of now "The date October 22 is not mentioned in the Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists. In fact Ellen White (co-founder) only mentions the season of fall, and some Adventists believe(d) that the investigative judgment began in the spring of 1844 ( see [2], #70) I found out that Seventh-day Adventist scholars seem to favor the Millerite date of October 22, but that doesn't seem worth mentioning in this article. Maybe it could say "Many Seventh-day Adventists maintain..."? It seemed easier just to remove the date as it requires too much explanation to connect it to a specific source."
Good content to verify and then (presumably) add. Colin MacLaurin 18:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
I do not understand even the basics of what investigative judgment is from reading the first two sentences, and I do not want to read the entire article. The second sentence already begins to speak of the history of IJ, when it should probably explain a bit more about what IJ is (without requiring us to move to a separate linked page) before moving on. Sincerely, One humble end user's opinion Jinjit82 ( talk) 01:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I'd just like to raise a few points about the new section ("other views")
I guess I feel that all the fine detail just complicates things and is unnecessary. It would be better to keep things simple: Adventists officially teach that the investigative judgment began in 1844 (precise season or date irrelevant), and this is supported by the ATS in their constitution as well as other scholars. Some Adventists however (the progressives) do not agree with the doctrine, full stop. What do you think? Tonicthebrown 14:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
My changes today:
W. W. Prescott suggested that the investigative judgment occurred in the spring, and not autumn, in one of his numerous suggested editorial revisions of the 1911 edition of the book. In point 70, he declared
also arguing it was the original interpretation of Miller. This suggestion was rejected.
Tonicthebrown 12:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
References
Further to what I said above, here is a claim by Des Ford from his interview with Atoday [3]
I did not try to edit the main page because I am sure the edit would have been reversed. However, I did want to make the following point about the Sanctuary and the judgment. On the John Ankerberg Show in the early 80s, Walter Martin debated Dr. William Johnsson, an Australian adventist professor who had known Desmond Ford very well. During the Martin/Johnsson debate, Martin recalled a 1957 meeting with Ted Heppenstall, William Murdoch, and George Canon. Canon was then a graduate student in NT Greek brought in by the Barnhouse team. Canon read a passage out of the Greek NT from Hebrews 9 and got Murdoch and Heppenstall to agree that Christ completed the atonement at the Ascension. 1844 was not in the Greek text of Hebrews. Johnsson, who had written a dissertation in NT Studies on Hebrews 9 and 10, gave a rather weak reply concerning the Greek word "agia" and how it can be translated as "sanctuary. " Conservative adventists have spent 54 years arguing over this passage of Greek, but a reading of Hebrews 9&10 in plain English seems to favor Martin's view. In my view the distinctive doctrines of the SDA church were developed by laymen with no specialized knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, ANE history, archeology, or Egyptology. Of course, any Adventist is free to ASSUME the truth of her church's doctrines. My point is this- if such great Adventist professors as Heppenstall and Murdoch were willing to admit that the Greek text of the NT has nought to do with the doctrines of Ellen White, then why would Adventists expect nonadventists to take the claims surrounding 1844 seriously at all? Need I remind us that Crozier, a young man who helped write out the Sanctuary doctrine, became an anti-adventist crusader later on. Miller himself disavowed his past views and explicitly rejected Ellen White and her claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.30.209.199 ( talk) 01:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
And here is what John McLarty (editor of AToday) has to say in Adventist Today vol 14, issue 6.
Tonicthebrown 11:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I propose that a lot of content be added to the "Glacier View controversy" section, and that when large enough it be branched out to a new article with a "summary style" left behind, per the policies. Numerous articles link to this precise topic, such as Desmond Ford, Robert Brinsmead, possibly History of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Seventh-day Adventist theology, and probably many others including potentials. There has been a lot of material written about those events both for and against, which I believe merits such focus. Also, it has been considered one of the most (possibly the most) damaging/controversial events in the history of the Adventist church. Colin MacLaurin 17:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
25 year anniversary Sydney Adventist Forum report Colin MacLaurin 10:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Before his death Walter Martin was investigating the White Estate. An allegation was made that Arthur White was editing out views and editorials written by Sister White if they were embarrasing. I see a contradiction here. There is sort of an informal rule against publically criticizing Ellen White for any reason, especially if you work for the 7DA church. On the other hand, the denomination seeks to actively expunge writings that would put Sister white in a bad light by modern standards. Most "pew adventists" who have never read Ford and Rea are blissfully ignorant of church history and the hierarchy wants to keep them so. On the other hand, the explosive growth of the Seventh Day Adventist Church in the third world bespeaks the fact that the global church is more christocentric and less Ellen White centric. Last time I went to an sda service the preacher was Korean and in his sermon he did not quote or cite EG White once. How is it possible to evaluate the IJ doctrine when many primary materials on the "shut door" have been destroyed or hidden? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.80.25.62 ( talk) 16:51, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
I've removed this from the article. I feel it is WP:Opinion and therefore not really encyclopedic, at least not for the "history" section which should be hard facts only. Perhaps it can be fitted in elsewhere, maybe in critcism? (Is it a veiled criticism?) Tonicthebrown ( talk) 04:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Alden Thompson has commented,
The assertion it is a "pillar" is overemphasized in the lead, I believe. To illustrate, this language is not used in the 28 Fundamentals. I do believe however there is room for a brief mention in the lead.
Also I don't consider "the church has reconfirmed its original position of this doctrinal pillar since 1980" to be correct, in that the doctrine has changed over time. What is has done is confirm the IJ, but I wouldn't say "its original position" in all areas, e.g. literal/figurative building in heaven.
Finally, it has always been controversial throughout the history of the church, not just recently. I have made some changes to reflect these comments. With all additions, please reliably source any contributions, stating all major points of view. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 04:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm adding material from Raymond Cottrell as I slowly work through his article. This is a work-in-progress: I look forward to a greater variety of sources being used. I encourage other editors to " be bold" also! Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 13:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
To be more specific, I believe the article is currently weighted to a critical bias. Material is neutral and reasonably cited, it's just that more weight is given to that point-of-view. I encourage other editors to expand the positive point-of-view. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 14:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
I have simplified this section. The details about the 69 and 70 week periods terminating at the baptism/death of Jesus etc. are not relevant to 1844 and the Investigative Judgment, and I have noted in any case that the material is already exactly replicated in the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks article where it belongs. Also, these details about 27 AD and so on are not explained in the book Seventh-day Adventists Believe, which is the denomination's official book on doctrine -- the reason for this, as I understand it, is that recent scholarship has challenged the accuracy of those dates. [i.e. the baptism of Jesus is now dated at AD 29, and Jesus' death at AD 33] Current Adventist scholarship no longer defends the old dates, and argues that the terminus of the 70 weeks prophecy is only approximate. Tonicthebrown ( talk) 04:17, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
This material might be helpful and broadly relevant; however it is not presented in an encyclopedic manner -- i.e. it reads somewhat like a story and lacks adequate citation; also it is only a single man's point of view. I have removed it from the article until it can be improved. Tonicthebrown ( talk) 08:12, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Also regarding the recent additions, Venden is a significant Adventist author, known for his emphasis on God's grace. I consider him a relevant source for this article. However a couple of lines is due weight, not whole paragraphs. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 14:33, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Removed material:
For a long time people have had held a primitive concept of what the pre-advent judgment is all about, thinking of it primarily in terms of God judging us and deciding our eternal destiny. God is perceived as rushing through the books since 1844, trying to get through all the names before the end of the world. But, God already “knows who are his,” and certainly doesn't need years and years to pore over the books. [1]
Instead, there are bigger issues involved in the judgment than just us humans. A mature understanding of the purpose of the pre-advent judgment includes us, the entire universe, and even for God Himself.
It has been noted that the saved will experience some big surprises in heaven. Friends and family they knew and loved may not be present! And some they knew could not make it are there! They will have looked at the only thing mankind can look at, the outward appearance.
But God wants them to understand the human heart and to see it as He sees it. The records of the investigative judgment will be open for all. They will be able to see as God can see, and understand the justice of His government as well as His great love. In this way they will be present at the pre-advent judgment. God treats the human race as intelligent beings. He doesn't ask for blind trust or blind obedience. He can be trusted now and forever because that trust is based on complete understanding. God has made provision for people to stand on a sea that looks like glass and thoughtfully, honestly say, "Great and marvelous are thy works, ...just and true are your ways." God is interested not only in justifying sinners, but in being just at the same time. The cross and the complete atonement justify God in forgiving anyone.
A case will never come to trial without a prosecutor. A legally authorized government sanctioned prosecutor needs the judgment context--in fact, demands it to ensure that justice is done, that the innocent are not condemned and that the guilty do not escape justice. In Matthew 12:33-34 Christ states that mankind is held accountable for every word spoken, and that "by your words you shall be justified and by your words you shall be condemned". In John 12:48 Christ says that His Word will judge mankind in the last days.
In the Bible we see that there are also false witnesses and false accusers. In Revelation 12 the false accuser of God's people is the enemy, the dragon, the serpent called the Devil and Satan. We see this again in Daniel 7 and 8 in the form of the little horn persecuting and accusing the people of God in all ages. Yet there will come a time when even the devil himself will bow and acknowledge the justice and fairness of God. “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow...; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Emphasis added) Philippians 2:10, 11
All who watch a case in court need the assurance that justice is being dealt. If those who observe are unable to see justice in the decisions, their confidence in the judge is undermined. If the people who are being governed do not have confidence in the justice of their rulers, there's going to be a problem. The pre-advent judgment justifies God in forgiving the ones who get forgiven. Not everyone is forgiven--only those who accept forgiveness are forgiven. God doesn't force His forgiveness on anybody. It must be accepted, and on a continuing basis. The pre-advent judgment reveals to the universe those who have accepted and continue to accept His justifying grace.
The final One who needs the judgment is God Himself. The judgment is "his judgment"--God's judgment. God has been accused before the universe. The "accuser of the brethren" is also the accuser of God and has been hurling his accusations at the God as unfair, unjust, and unreasonable. In order for God to be vindicated, in order for the entire universe, including us, to see that God is indeed a God of love and justice, in order to make the universe forever safe from sin and its results, the investigative judgment must take place.
References
Exactly what changes did Heppenstall and others cause? More details would improve the article. Colin MacLaurin ( talk) 14:53, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
How many lay Adventists of today have any idea that their church actively taught against the Holy Trinity? How many "little people" who put their tithes in the collection plate on Saturday mornings know that many of their legendary founders were arians, semiarians, and adoptionists? I think that the Denominational hierarchy wants their own people to know as little as possible about any real history concerning pre-1888 Adventism. Part of the problem is that the Second Advent movement anticipated the return of the Savior in their own lifetimes. The "shut door" idea and the lack of clarity on the God head are symptomatic of a church that expected to last only a generation. They were left a hornet's nest of difficulties because of the delay of the Parousia and the need to become an institutional church. The early church had to deal with doctrines and dogmas as generation after generation passed without the Second Coming actually taking place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.30.209.199 ( talk) 00:31, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi there, the source #6 seems to be dead ( http://sdanet.org/atissue/doctrines/inves-judgment.htm). Can someone find an alternative source or delete this part out of the article? -- Thekryz ( talk) 21:12, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I can find no definition of "investigative judgment". Probably because the formulations trying to define "investigative judgment" assumes too much knowledge of the reader, f.ex. this from the intro:
What? Who are judging whome? Are "professed Christian believers" ― whatever that means in the 7dA-context ― judging anything, or are they judged, or both? If they aren't judging themselves, who is/are judging? What qualities of /unknown-object/ are evaluated in this judging context? When the judgement is done, what happens next? ... said: Rursus ( bork²) 18:47, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
There have been several POV edits with no sources to back them up. Also, There is too much reliance on a single source--Cottrel--need more sources to back up his POV. Allenroyboy ( talk) 14:33, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I changed the "Counter Arguments" section title to "Adventist Response to Critics" since it is confusing as to whether "counter arguments" is a reference to the subject - or to the Critics.
If one assumes that the primary focus of the article is "the critics" then "counter arguments" is clearly addressed to the critics. But IF the primary purpose is the actual subject of the article (in this case the "Investigative Judgment" doctrine) then "Counter Arguments" would be "counter" to the I.J -- not counter to some critic. I have changed the section title to point out that this is supposed to be Adventist response to critics. BobRyan777 ( talk) 14:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi, all. I noticed that this article has numerous external links (links to off-wiki sites) in the body of the article. That's not permitted by our external links policy, which says, among other things, "Wikipedia articles may include links to web pages outside Wikipedia (external links), but they should not normally be used in the body of an article." One of the reasons for this policy, as I understand it, and the reason all our articles have a separate section just for external links, is that we want our readers to know when clicking on a link will take them offsite. If regulars on this article want to keep the information present in the in-the-body-of-the-article links, they'll need to convert those links to references using, for example, the "cite book" template for Bible verses. Best regards, – OhioStandard ( talk) 12:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi Simbagraphix, thank you for your constructive revisions, which improve the quality of the article rather than taking an axe to it. I think that this is the best way to move forward. Tonicthebrown ( talk) 13:00, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
I found this article while looking for LDS Investigative Judgement belief information. The article is very technical and concentrates mainly on the controversial aspects and personalities who have contributed to the Investigative Judgement controversy and the doctrine. At the moment every single paragraph seems to be about controversy. I appreciate this is an excellent source of information for church members but it is unsuited to a beginner.
A beginner - like me - needs to know what the current position is and then the beliefs and practical implications which derive from that. The article is very short on practical implications. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.34.224 ( talk) 00:55, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the comment, I've taken the liberty to add a tag at the top the of the article. I agree that every paragraph is about controversy (way too much), this article needs a rewrite IMHO. Willfults ( talk) 01:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
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a decent explanation is provided here /info/en/?search=Heavenly_sanctuary#Official_position
why on earth, with all the words in this article, can you say something simple like There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:192:4200:1E42:4D03:E775:34BD:19AD ( talk) 21:16, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
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I propose to merge Pre-advent_judgment into this article Investigative_judgment.
The Pre-advent Judgment article is only a stub, and the topic isn’t understandable or notable outside the context of Investigative Judgment. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there doesn’t need to be a separate entry for every concept. . Bluepenciltime ( talk) 17:52, 3 June 2019 (UTC)