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The motif of the internet killer is fairly common in contemporary popular media, especially characters who are either serial killers or serial killers who also broadcast their crimes on the internet. A list has been started, but further examples from fictional books, television shows, and movies are solicted. Any editors care to list a few? If you can, thanks! cat yronwode Catherineyronwode ( talk) 06:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
* Clues from killers: serial murder and crime scene messages by Dirk Cameron Gibson - Social Science - 2004 - 249 pages ("Bistate task force thinks it has USA's first Internet serial killer," Law Enforcement News 26:536, http://www.lib.jjay.cuny.edu, June 30, 2000, p. 5. 30.")
* Psychiatric mental health nursing - Page 509 by Katherine M. Fortinash, Patricia A. Holoday-Worret - Medical - 2007 - 716 pages (Definition: "INTERNET HOMICIDE Luring a person from a chat room to an actual meeting. Can turn deadly.") (also cited here: "Chapter 22 Internet Homicide. • Luring a person from a chat room to an actual meeting. • May turn deadly ... www.napavalley.edu/Projects/189/Chapter_022_4th_ed__handout.pdf)
* Cyberstalking: harassment in the Internet age and how to protect your family - Page 20 by Paul Bocij - Social Science - 2004 - 268 pages ("The idea that a serial killer may have operated via the Internet is, understandably, one that has resulted in a great deal of public anxiety.")
* Anyone you want me to be: a true story of sex and death on the Internet by John E. Douglas, Stephen Singular - True Crime - 2003 - 308 pages (the Robinson case)
* I: The Creation of a Serial Killer by Jack Olsen, Keith Hunter Jesperson - True Crime - 2003 - 320 pages ("As his revelations mounted, the killer turned to the Internet for more attention and notoriety. Members of America Online were inundated ..." -- Review: "Keith Hunter Jesperson is an American serial killer who raped and murdered eight women while he worked as a long-distance trucker in the early 1990's. He is also notoriously media-hungry, known for having set up personal web pages with his delusional rants against the government during his early imprisonment, as well as starting a serial murderer pen pal club." His use of the internet is unusual; it may also be outside the scope of this article. Just considering it here. )
* Criminal Profiling: An Introduction to Behavioral Evidence Analysis by Brent E. Turvey - Law - 2008 ("... the Internet enables offenders to gain control of their victims or gain ... of the admitted killer she had seduced with the assistance of the Internet. ...")
* The Internet in Public Life by Verna V. Gehring - Philosophy - 2004 - 136 pages ("stalking complaints, rigged auctions, and even 'the first Internet serial killer.' Yet, this is just one face of the Internet.")
* Criminal visions: media representations of crime and justice by Paul Mason - Law - 2003 - 310 pages ("leading researchers in the field [...] address issues of fictional, factual and hybrid representations of crime and justice in the media.")
* Technology and law enforcement: from gumshoe to gamma rays - by Robert L. Snow, Raymond E. Foster - Social Science - 2007 - 188 pages ("The news media dubbed Robinson as the world's first "Internet Serial Killer" because he met most of his victims in chat rooms on the Internet.")
* Digital evidence and computer crime: forensic science, computers and the by Eoghan Casey, Robert Dunne - Computers - 2004 - 690 pages (serial killer Maury Troy Travis case: "The FBI subpoenaed the Internet service provider to find out who had been assigned the IP address... ")
* Crime classification manual: a standard system for investigating" by John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, Allen G. Burgess, Robert K. Ressler - Psychology - 2006 - 555 pages ("includes crimes committed over the Internet or whereby the Internet plays a role")
*German 'cyber killer' may have been in love with victim's girlfriend
Sep 27, 2008 ... A GERMAN internet fan accused of murdering a British student after a cyberspace row may have been in love with his alleged victim's ...
www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1741236.ece (Note: they met in an online game called Advance Wars and the killer flew from Germany to England to kill his victim.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.142.90.33 ( talk) 07:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
As I mentioned at the talk page for Craigslist killer, Harold Schechter has an entry for "Internet" in his The A to Z Encyclopedia of Serial Killers. He writes in part, "If the Internet has become a very useful tool for people interested in serial killers, there's some indication that it may also prove to be a resource for serial killers themselves" (130). He mentions Meiwes and Robinson, noting the latter was called "the first Internet serial killer" (emphasis mine) in the press (131). He also mentioned internet dating in his entry on "Ads," and Meiwes' use of internet ads in that entry as well. Шизомби ( talk) 17:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Would expanding
List of Craigslist killers' Internet component from only dealing with Craigslist and narrowing its focus to murder make for a good omnibus to which to merge any notable content from here [Edited: "
Craigslist controversies and illegal activities by users"]? Please provide your thoughts/input. Thanks.
↜Just me, here, now … 05:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
↜Just me, here, now … 18:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
"An Internet homicide is a homicide committed by an individual who has met his or her victim on the Internet." There is no single source that says this. None. Viriditas ( talk) 21:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
It survived the AfD, here are the sources I dug up during the process. Some may already be used on the page. This source discusses the concept in detail: [1]. The author is critical of the concept; 'Internet killer' admits murdering women he met in online chat rooms; Life for internet killer; Jury Recommends Sentence For Internet Killer; Internet killer gets life term for 'vicious crimes'; "Er soll der unheimliche Internet-Killer sein, der mindestens zwei Frauen getötet hat"; Love link to 'cyber row killer'; Used in fiction in the show "Homicide" in 1999; Woman 'confesses to internet murder'; Help To Halt Online Predators. Internet Murder: Tips Every Parent Should Knowsounds like a how to guide; Internet 'murder' boys told: Never see each other again; Internet murderer 'saw the eyes of Jesus'; First Internet murder Fences and windows ( talk) 03:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
ok, this section just IRKS me. It's absurdly misleading. let me point out the obvious: the anonymity here is part of a masseuse/prostitute arranging to meet a client/john. it has nothing to do with the internet; it's exactly the same 'anonymous fog' that let people like Jack the Ripper and the Green River Killer (and many others, long before the invention of the internet) get away with murder. and yet, this paragraph effectively transmutes a age-old strategy for finding easy victims into something specific to the internet. In fact, the internet is a bad place to seek out victims; most everything is logged, somewhere, and once people start searching you need to be a damned good hacker to keep them from finding you. and yet, I can't see a way to say any of this in the article without being accused of synthesis myself, and I suspect if I just delete it people will complain that I've deleted a valid source.
This is the kind of idiocy that happens once you allow a neologism like this to stand. it poisons any efforts at creating NPOV, because everything has to be consistent with the original synthesis that created the article. If someone can see a way to fix this passage, please do so, otherwise I'm going to have to remove it, sooner or later. -- Ludwigs2 21:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the inclusion of this source would be a fine addition for either of those pages, but whether it gets picked up and used would be up to the editors of those pages, i should think. I'm not currently editing those pages. I only have limited time to work on Wikipedia. cat yronwode (not logged in) 64.142.90.33 ( talk) 19:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Title change: Trying to be helpful, I've now done the title change, as proposed above -- From " Internet killer" to " Internet homicide": which I think is maybe a little less newspapery and more encyclopedic in tone (and which anyone can revert, if they'd like, of course, too). ↜Just me, here, now … 19:16, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Note: All participants of the recent three, related AfDs were "appropriately canvassed" wrt this discussion (per the stipulations laid down at WP:CANVASSING: namely a few WPdians who've an interest and are neutrally selected) by ↜Just me, here, now … 20:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC).
Support for article contents, including the use and meaning of neologisms, must come from reliable sources. Wikipedia is a tertiary source that includes material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term. (Note that wikis such as Wiktionary are not considered to be a reliable source for this purpose.)
Neologisms that are in wide use—but for which there are no treatments in secondary sources—are not yet ready for use and coverage in Wikipedia. They may be in time, but not yet. The term does not need to be in Wikipedia in order to be a "true" term, and when secondary sources become available, it will be appropriate to create an article on the topic or use the term within other articles.
↜Just me, here, now … 23:06, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I understand your thinking, i think -- but let's look at this for consistency and popularity. Basically, Wikipedia classifies crimes into four categories
1) Crime-by-type-of-crime - Probably the most popular naming convention at Wikipedia: Homicide, Proxy murder, Assassination, Consensual homicide, Contract killing, Torture murder, Honour killing, Mass murder, Murder-suicide, Lust murder, Lynching, Double murder, Insurance fraud, Misdemeanor murder, Robbery, Theft, Crime of passion, Justifiable homicide, Vandalism, Rape, Sexual assault, Abduction, Kidnapping, Torture, Extortion, Blackmail, Fraud, Incest, Wire fraud, Battery, Assault, False imprisonment, Mayhem, Arson, Embezzlement, Larceny, Perjury, Stalking
2) Crime-by-type-of-victim - Probably the 2nd-most popular naming convention: Child murder, Human sacrifice, Feticide, Suicide, Familicide, Avunculicide, Prolicide, Filicide, Infanticide, Neonaticide, Fratricide, Sororicide, Mariticide. Uxoricide, Parricide, Matricide. Patricide, Genocide, Democide, Gendercide, Omnicide, Regicide, Tyrannicide, Witness tampering
3) Crime by type-of-criminal - A less-common naming convention at Wikipedia: Serial killer, Spree killer, Lonely hearts killer, Online predator -- which would argue for the use of Internet killer and, yes, Craigslist killer -- however, this type (3) formation is being actively devalued at Wikipedia in favour of either type (1) names (Rapist redirects to Rape, Robber redirects to Robbery, Thief redirects to Theft) or type (4) names (Pirate redirects to Piracy).
4) Crime-by-contact-venue - Used at Wikipedia when old crimes are historically identified by contact-venue (e.g. Piracy) or when old crimes acquire new contact venues: Piracy, Skyjacking, Carjacking, Computer crime, Cyberstalking, Internet crime, Internet suicide, Cyberterrorism, Internet fraud, Vehicular homicide -- which would argue for the use of Internet homicide, although the term is rarer at google than Internet killer. However, even when the contact-venue is notable, there is inconsistency at Wikipedia; for instance, note that Highway robbery (type 4) redirects to Robbery (type 1), but Cyberstalking (type 4) does NOT redirect to Stalking (type 1), which is a separate article.
Due to the obvious inconsistency of naming conventions at Wikipedia and the ease of creating redirects, i am fairly comfortable with either Internet killer (type 3) or Internet homicide (type 4), even though i happen to know that the former is far more popular than the latter in terms of google searches.
I hope this method of categorization opens up folks to think about the subject a bit more fully, in terms of Wikipedia's own conventions -- and inconsistencies.
cat yronwode Catherineyronwode ( talk) 07:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
At the moment I would tend to favor "internet homicide" "internet murder" or "internet killer" as a title rather than a longer more descriptive title. Wikipedia:Naming conventions mentions "making linking to those articles easy and second nature"; the longer and less obvious the title, the less likely that is. Removing original research, adding additional/better sources is more of a priority for the article than the title, for me anyway. Шизомби ( talk) 19:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) There are a lot of problems with ascribing new vernacular on Wikipedia, original research/synthesis being primary. This doesn't fall under Wikipedia guidelines for naming conventions, it falls under categorization. The most overt examples from above make me hesitant about the use of "Internet homicide". Catherineyronwode outlined Crime-by-contact-venue, including Piracy, Skyjacking, Carjacking, Computer crime, Cyberstalking, Internet crime, Internet suicide, Cyberterrorism, Internet fraud, Vehicular homicide, and stated that such would argue for the use of Internet homicide. So the approach would be to examine what those mean, how they are defined. I'd remove Piracy, Skyjacking, and Carjacking from that because piracy and hijacking are old terms that are widely used and accepted and the meaning for them is not ambiguous. That leaves the rest.
Personally, I think it can be effectively argued that all of the above terms fall under a broad umbrella that considers the use of computers and networking to perpetuate crimes that are in most cases addressed specifically by law and have become part of the current criminal vernacular. Then we have to consider the remaining terms on the list.
This leaves Internet suicide. So what is it? The article defines it as "a suicide pact made between individuals who meet on the Internet." Is it a crime? Not specifically, at least in terms of laws prohibiting such. It becomes a crime if someone uses computer/internet to persuade others into entering and completing a pact without actually participating. At that point it isn't a suicide pact. At this point, this concept still remains vague and undetermined in scope.
What troubles me about this article is that it seems to try and create a new broad topic. It doesn't use the term to define how a victim is killed. It tries to define how a victim is found. That doesn't fall under the umbrella of new crime, only new MO, and doesn't define something different than is already addressed in various articles. I can't see how this term differs in anyway from Internet killer, Internet chat room killer, Craigslist killer, Internet serial killer, lonelyhearts killer, want ad killers or a myriad of other journalese terms. This article reads a lot more like investigative journalism (read that synthesis) into a new phenomenon and I honestly still cannot see how this does not skirt original research, especially if the article tries to define something new. One of the sources that supposedly supports a definitional term is here. It says it is from teaching text and has a definition. Um, sorry, but that is far from clear. It isn't definitional, it looks like an overhead projector type of headline which would be used to generate further discussion or lecture on a topic. I'd also like to see the first reference, Psychiatric mental health nursing, Katherine M. Fortinash, Patricia A. Holoday-Worret, 2007, in context, since it uses nearly identical wording to the handout ref. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I truly think the quote in context is quite important. It says "Internet Homicide: Luring a person from a chat room to an actual meeting. Can turn deadly" is not a definition of a crime, intent, or action. Again, it is a topic.
Right now, the lead paragraph is all that tries to specifically define what "Internet homicide" is, and right now, it fails to do so. All it does at the moment is attempt to define a new term, which is doesn't do. The rest of the article tends to regurgitate content covered from other articles rather than present new content supported clearly by reliably published sources. Using "internet homicide" implies something that isn't currently established as anything new or different. The internet isn't the weapon and this terminology is misleading in that it tends to imply something new. Wildhartlivie ( talk) 23:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Besides the issues about content and synthesis, I have an issue with the term "internet homicide". While homicide doesn't by definition mean an act covered under law, in general, the use of the word does imply legality. This is where negligent homicide, vehicular homicide, etc. become pertinent. In general, nomenclature using the word homicide tends to group terms into a legal category and there is nothing whatsoever in regard to this article that falls under that. As I stated earlier, this article addresses MO, not a specific crime nor a new term. I see its use as no different than other similar topics such as lonelyhearts killer. It isn't a new phenomenon, it is an approach to luring victims, something alluded to in the talk page section Talk:Internet homicide#Anonymity of the Internet section. I don't have another suggestion, but I had one less issue with this when the article was called Internet killer. By the way, I have similar misgivings about the article Consensual homicide. All it is is a rehash of physician-assisted suicide/euthanasia. My real feeling is that all of these articles need to be clarified, combined and organized with some sort of consistency in regard to the overriding meaning, not how many sources can be found using different types of vernacular. Wildhartlivie ( talk) 08:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
ok, after sitting with it a bit, I think maybe we can transform this whole article into something less contentious. I suggest we re-conceive the as an "Internet and Death" article: then we can have sections on internet homicide (separating actual and fictional ats), internet suicide, and even cover other related issues (email or web death threats, Timothy Leary's online suicide, the the use of the internet by the Columbine killers), without making more (or less) of the subject than it deserves, or making any unwarranted synthesis between speculative and actual events. what do you all think? -- Ludwigs2 13:53, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Would it be too outside normal procedures to invite an uninvolved editor (
User:Icestorm815, perhaps) to consider looking over this talkpage section after a reasonable amount of time and figure out which, if any, proposal has the most support? In any case, after the first five participants' initial comments in this section, my own guess would be that the current title,
Internet homicide retains the most support (given that its several supporters from above on the talkpage haven't said elsewise and no other title as of yet has as much support at least yet, IMO.
↜Just M E here , now 16:40, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I am no angel. I'm sorry that I reacted so adversarily, when I came to the general subject of Internet related killings, to V's insistance that Cat and my and others contributions to a page dedicated to this subject not be allowed to progress. Mea culpa.
Yeah I've an interest in the subject. Say it was, by analogy, the newspapers' fascination in drownings in Lock Ness. (To analogy haters: WARNING. DO NOT READ AHEAD!) Say I shared an interest in that. I write, "So and so disappeared in the loch on this date blah blah." Somebody deletes, "So what! WP:NN!" I counter, "I got plenty of WP:RS for incidents and think a listing is notable enough." Then it turns instead of a discussion of Lockness drownings a discussion about how this other person is a pain in the butt and I'm a jerk. Fine. But sort of counterproductive to the project. (I say, "The other editor started his OWN page about general deaths, drowning and car accidents, etc., in Inverness, Scotland! It's a WP:CFORK!!!! He just doesn't want me and certain others to contribute to the encyclopedia!" And the other editor counters: "Justme is disruptive. S/he's worrying about the name of the article. S/he should just leave.") I'd offer a truce but doubt that would be as much fun for the participants who like this stuff. So instead I offer you up this talkpage subsection. Have at it and add your pithy comments and put downs and worries about others' whacky editing practices and behaviors below. Enjoy! {smiles} ↜Just M E here , now 05:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
While "internet homicide"/"internet killer" might be a "meme" (not too sure about that, myself), and may be a "term of art" or "journalese" those are pretty specific claims and there's no support for actually calling them that in the article. Repeatedly, a number of killers have been nicknamed after their use of the internet to find victims, "internet killer" in particular, that's about as much as could be said, I think. Some would dispute even that that much could be written. Шизомби ( talk) 02:32, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Mercer County Prosecutors Office: "Man Pleads Guilty in Cyber Slay Case. An East Windsor man pleaded guilty today to aggravated manslaughter in the 1996 killing of a man he met through a sex 'chat room' on the Internet, Mercer County Prosecutor Daniel G. Giaquinto announced. George 'Chip' Hemenway (DOB 1/16/57), of the first block of Jeffrey Lane, had been indicted on murder and weapons offenses in the Jan. 4, 1996 death of Jesse M. Unger, 38, of Mark Twain Drive in Hamilton." ↜Just M E here , now 03:11, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Not sure if this merits a new section on the talk page. Some editors were complaining about how "internet killer" makes too much of how the killers located their victims, and how it plays into the demonization of the internet, and the limited meta-writing about the creation and use of the label itself, complaints I agree with to some extent myself. Found some sources along these lines: Rapp, Paul. "Don’t Blame Craig" http://www.metroland.net/rapp_this.html (which also accuses newspapers of backlash against Craigslist for loss of advertising revenue) and Harris, Leslie. "Because 'Classified Ad Killer' Doesn't Have the Same Ring" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-harris/because-classified-ad-kil_b_190965.html I just stumbled across these, at this point there may be more writing on the subject so it's worth another search maybe. Шизомби ( talk) 18:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Another article speculating on why the term stuck and bringing up moral panic: Sex, murder and the outbreak of moral panic [12] (appears to mistakenly use assonant instead of consonant, however, tsk). Some uncertainty about who originated the name, some say police [13], some say tabloids [14]. Шизомби ( talk) 18:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Other articles critical of the terms "Craigslist Killer" and "Internet Killer": Christopher Lochhead, "The Scapegoating of Craigslist: Where's Mainstream Media's Perspective Gone?" http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/19/opinion/main5025322.shtml Julie Hilden, "How the Internet Can Help Crime Victims and How Too Much Privacy Can Hurt Them" http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hilden/20010528.html Anyway, I hope to get back to working on this article. Found a number of other people called some variation on "internet killer" both real and fictional, and more articles making links between those people. Шизомби ( talk) 08:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
"A man from Germany has been jailed for life for stabbing a Nottingham student 86 times after stalking his girlfriend. David Heiss, 21, from Limburg, became infatuated with 20-year-old Matthew Pyke's girlfriend Joanna Witton, 21, during repeated internet exchanges ... Det Ch Insp Tony Heydon from Nottinghamshire Police warned people about the dangers of the internet: "It is the worst case I have dealt with. It is a horrific incident, a very pre-planned premeditated murder. The scene we found on the day was horrific and what happened to Matthew was a terrible act, everyone is shocked about what happened. David Heiss was very clever on the internet, and he learned a lot of information about Joanna Witton and Matthew Pyke and others. It is very, very interesting that he could do that. One of the things that's important here is that people need to realise that on their computers there is a lot of personal information that other people can gather. We know that Heiss found out a lot of information about where they lived and where they worked and all sorts of things about their social network that perhaps now with hindsight they wouldn't want him to know. So people need to bear that in mind when they are on their own systems using Facebook, people need to be careful."" Web murderer given life sentence, BBC Fences and windows ( talk) 19:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
youtube of local KATU news report ↜Just M E here , now 04:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Another source pouring cold water on claims of the internet as a causal agent in murders: [15]. A legal theorist pressed for an "internet angle" on a murder by a journalist related that "I asked her whether, if I called her up and asked her out on a blind date and murdered her, she would think it was a "telephone-related murder"?". Fences and windows ( talk) 19:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Is the phrase "such as in World of Warcraft, Call of Duty, Halo, or other online games" really necessary in the opening sentence? Sounds like more anti-game Bullcrap to me. There are many more ways a person can be met online, many predating the Online Gaming boom. Quatreryukami ( talk) 18:49, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
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The section on Internet dating has a single source that states that "[...] since 1995, there's been [...] over 400 instances where a homicide has been related to the person that [the victim] met online." This source is no longer available on the original site; it is available on the Internet Archive, though that doesn't include the video. The archived version of the page includes a transcript that says 40, not 400, instances of homicides since 1995 (as of 2007) had been linked to people the victim met online; as the video is not available, it's hard to say if the transcript is accurate. So four things:
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The motif of the internet killer is fairly common in contemporary popular media, especially characters who are either serial killers or serial killers who also broadcast their crimes on the internet. A list has been started, but further examples from fictional books, television shows, and movies are solicted. Any editors care to list a few? If you can, thanks! cat yronwode Catherineyronwode ( talk) 06:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
* Clues from killers: serial murder and crime scene messages by Dirk Cameron Gibson - Social Science - 2004 - 249 pages ("Bistate task force thinks it has USA's first Internet serial killer," Law Enforcement News 26:536, http://www.lib.jjay.cuny.edu, June 30, 2000, p. 5. 30.")
* Psychiatric mental health nursing - Page 509 by Katherine M. Fortinash, Patricia A. Holoday-Worret - Medical - 2007 - 716 pages (Definition: "INTERNET HOMICIDE Luring a person from a chat room to an actual meeting. Can turn deadly.") (also cited here: "Chapter 22 Internet Homicide. • Luring a person from a chat room to an actual meeting. • May turn deadly ... www.napavalley.edu/Projects/189/Chapter_022_4th_ed__handout.pdf)
* Cyberstalking: harassment in the Internet age and how to protect your family - Page 20 by Paul Bocij - Social Science - 2004 - 268 pages ("The idea that a serial killer may have operated via the Internet is, understandably, one that has resulted in a great deal of public anxiety.")
* Anyone you want me to be: a true story of sex and death on the Internet by John E. Douglas, Stephen Singular - True Crime - 2003 - 308 pages (the Robinson case)
* I: The Creation of a Serial Killer by Jack Olsen, Keith Hunter Jesperson - True Crime - 2003 - 320 pages ("As his revelations mounted, the killer turned to the Internet for more attention and notoriety. Members of America Online were inundated ..." -- Review: "Keith Hunter Jesperson is an American serial killer who raped and murdered eight women while he worked as a long-distance trucker in the early 1990's. He is also notoriously media-hungry, known for having set up personal web pages with his delusional rants against the government during his early imprisonment, as well as starting a serial murderer pen pal club." His use of the internet is unusual; it may also be outside the scope of this article. Just considering it here. )
* Criminal Profiling: An Introduction to Behavioral Evidence Analysis by Brent E. Turvey - Law - 2008 ("... the Internet enables offenders to gain control of their victims or gain ... of the admitted killer she had seduced with the assistance of the Internet. ...")
* The Internet in Public Life by Verna V. Gehring - Philosophy - 2004 - 136 pages ("stalking complaints, rigged auctions, and even 'the first Internet serial killer.' Yet, this is just one face of the Internet.")
* Criminal visions: media representations of crime and justice by Paul Mason - Law - 2003 - 310 pages ("leading researchers in the field [...] address issues of fictional, factual and hybrid representations of crime and justice in the media.")
* Technology and law enforcement: from gumshoe to gamma rays - by Robert L. Snow, Raymond E. Foster - Social Science - 2007 - 188 pages ("The news media dubbed Robinson as the world's first "Internet Serial Killer" because he met most of his victims in chat rooms on the Internet.")
* Digital evidence and computer crime: forensic science, computers and the by Eoghan Casey, Robert Dunne - Computers - 2004 - 690 pages (serial killer Maury Troy Travis case: "The FBI subpoenaed the Internet service provider to find out who had been assigned the IP address... ")
* Crime classification manual: a standard system for investigating" by John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, Allen G. Burgess, Robert K. Ressler - Psychology - 2006 - 555 pages ("includes crimes committed over the Internet or whereby the Internet plays a role")
*German 'cyber killer' may have been in love with victim's girlfriend
Sep 27, 2008 ... A GERMAN internet fan accused of murdering a British student after a cyberspace row may have been in love with his alleged victim's ...
www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1741236.ece (Note: they met in an online game called Advance Wars and the killer flew from Germany to England to kill his victim.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.142.90.33 ( talk) 07:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
As I mentioned at the talk page for Craigslist killer, Harold Schechter has an entry for "Internet" in his The A to Z Encyclopedia of Serial Killers. He writes in part, "If the Internet has become a very useful tool for people interested in serial killers, there's some indication that it may also prove to be a resource for serial killers themselves" (130). He mentions Meiwes and Robinson, noting the latter was called "the first Internet serial killer" (emphasis mine) in the press (131). He also mentioned internet dating in his entry on "Ads," and Meiwes' use of internet ads in that entry as well. Шизомби ( talk) 17:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Would expanding
List of Craigslist killers' Internet component from only dealing with Craigslist and narrowing its focus to murder make for a good omnibus to which to merge any notable content from here [Edited: "
Craigslist controversies and illegal activities by users"]? Please provide your thoughts/input. Thanks.
↜Just me, here, now … 05:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
↜Just me, here, now … 18:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
"An Internet homicide is a homicide committed by an individual who has met his or her victim on the Internet." There is no single source that says this. None. Viriditas ( talk) 21:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
It survived the AfD, here are the sources I dug up during the process. Some may already be used on the page. This source discusses the concept in detail: [1]. The author is critical of the concept; 'Internet killer' admits murdering women he met in online chat rooms; Life for internet killer; Jury Recommends Sentence For Internet Killer; Internet killer gets life term for 'vicious crimes'; "Er soll der unheimliche Internet-Killer sein, der mindestens zwei Frauen getötet hat"; Love link to 'cyber row killer'; Used in fiction in the show "Homicide" in 1999; Woman 'confesses to internet murder'; Help To Halt Online Predators. Internet Murder: Tips Every Parent Should Knowsounds like a how to guide; Internet 'murder' boys told: Never see each other again; Internet murderer 'saw the eyes of Jesus'; First Internet murder Fences and windows ( talk) 03:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
ok, this section just IRKS me. It's absurdly misleading. let me point out the obvious: the anonymity here is part of a masseuse/prostitute arranging to meet a client/john. it has nothing to do with the internet; it's exactly the same 'anonymous fog' that let people like Jack the Ripper and the Green River Killer (and many others, long before the invention of the internet) get away with murder. and yet, this paragraph effectively transmutes a age-old strategy for finding easy victims into something specific to the internet. In fact, the internet is a bad place to seek out victims; most everything is logged, somewhere, and once people start searching you need to be a damned good hacker to keep them from finding you. and yet, I can't see a way to say any of this in the article without being accused of synthesis myself, and I suspect if I just delete it people will complain that I've deleted a valid source.
This is the kind of idiocy that happens once you allow a neologism like this to stand. it poisons any efforts at creating NPOV, because everything has to be consistent with the original synthesis that created the article. If someone can see a way to fix this passage, please do so, otherwise I'm going to have to remove it, sooner or later. -- Ludwigs2 21:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree that the inclusion of this source would be a fine addition for either of those pages, but whether it gets picked up and used would be up to the editors of those pages, i should think. I'm not currently editing those pages. I only have limited time to work on Wikipedia. cat yronwode (not logged in) 64.142.90.33 ( talk) 19:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Title change: Trying to be helpful, I've now done the title change, as proposed above -- From " Internet killer" to " Internet homicide": which I think is maybe a little less newspapery and more encyclopedic in tone (and which anyone can revert, if they'd like, of course, too). ↜Just me, here, now … 19:16, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Note: All participants of the recent three, related AfDs were "appropriately canvassed" wrt this discussion (per the stipulations laid down at WP:CANVASSING: namely a few WPdians who've an interest and are neutrally selected) by ↜Just me, here, now … 20:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC).
Support for article contents, including the use and meaning of neologisms, must come from reliable sources. Wikipedia is a tertiary source that includes material on the basis of verifiability, not truth. To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term. (Note that wikis such as Wiktionary are not considered to be a reliable source for this purpose.)
Neologisms that are in wide use—but for which there are no treatments in secondary sources—are not yet ready for use and coverage in Wikipedia. They may be in time, but not yet. The term does not need to be in Wikipedia in order to be a "true" term, and when secondary sources become available, it will be appropriate to create an article on the topic or use the term within other articles.
↜Just me, here, now … 23:06, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I understand your thinking, i think -- but let's look at this for consistency and popularity. Basically, Wikipedia classifies crimes into four categories
1) Crime-by-type-of-crime - Probably the most popular naming convention at Wikipedia: Homicide, Proxy murder, Assassination, Consensual homicide, Contract killing, Torture murder, Honour killing, Mass murder, Murder-suicide, Lust murder, Lynching, Double murder, Insurance fraud, Misdemeanor murder, Robbery, Theft, Crime of passion, Justifiable homicide, Vandalism, Rape, Sexual assault, Abduction, Kidnapping, Torture, Extortion, Blackmail, Fraud, Incest, Wire fraud, Battery, Assault, False imprisonment, Mayhem, Arson, Embezzlement, Larceny, Perjury, Stalking
2) Crime-by-type-of-victim - Probably the 2nd-most popular naming convention: Child murder, Human sacrifice, Feticide, Suicide, Familicide, Avunculicide, Prolicide, Filicide, Infanticide, Neonaticide, Fratricide, Sororicide, Mariticide. Uxoricide, Parricide, Matricide. Patricide, Genocide, Democide, Gendercide, Omnicide, Regicide, Tyrannicide, Witness tampering
3) Crime by type-of-criminal - A less-common naming convention at Wikipedia: Serial killer, Spree killer, Lonely hearts killer, Online predator -- which would argue for the use of Internet killer and, yes, Craigslist killer -- however, this type (3) formation is being actively devalued at Wikipedia in favour of either type (1) names (Rapist redirects to Rape, Robber redirects to Robbery, Thief redirects to Theft) or type (4) names (Pirate redirects to Piracy).
4) Crime-by-contact-venue - Used at Wikipedia when old crimes are historically identified by contact-venue (e.g. Piracy) or when old crimes acquire new contact venues: Piracy, Skyjacking, Carjacking, Computer crime, Cyberstalking, Internet crime, Internet suicide, Cyberterrorism, Internet fraud, Vehicular homicide -- which would argue for the use of Internet homicide, although the term is rarer at google than Internet killer. However, even when the contact-venue is notable, there is inconsistency at Wikipedia; for instance, note that Highway robbery (type 4) redirects to Robbery (type 1), but Cyberstalking (type 4) does NOT redirect to Stalking (type 1), which is a separate article.
Due to the obvious inconsistency of naming conventions at Wikipedia and the ease of creating redirects, i am fairly comfortable with either Internet killer (type 3) or Internet homicide (type 4), even though i happen to know that the former is far more popular than the latter in terms of google searches.
I hope this method of categorization opens up folks to think about the subject a bit more fully, in terms of Wikipedia's own conventions -- and inconsistencies.
cat yronwode Catherineyronwode ( talk) 07:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
At the moment I would tend to favor "internet homicide" "internet murder" or "internet killer" as a title rather than a longer more descriptive title. Wikipedia:Naming conventions mentions "making linking to those articles easy and second nature"; the longer and less obvious the title, the less likely that is. Removing original research, adding additional/better sources is more of a priority for the article than the title, for me anyway. Шизомби ( talk) 19:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) There are a lot of problems with ascribing new vernacular on Wikipedia, original research/synthesis being primary. This doesn't fall under Wikipedia guidelines for naming conventions, it falls under categorization. The most overt examples from above make me hesitant about the use of "Internet homicide". Catherineyronwode outlined Crime-by-contact-venue, including Piracy, Skyjacking, Carjacking, Computer crime, Cyberstalking, Internet crime, Internet suicide, Cyberterrorism, Internet fraud, Vehicular homicide, and stated that such would argue for the use of Internet homicide. So the approach would be to examine what those mean, how they are defined. I'd remove Piracy, Skyjacking, and Carjacking from that because piracy and hijacking are old terms that are widely used and accepted and the meaning for them is not ambiguous. That leaves the rest.
Personally, I think it can be effectively argued that all of the above terms fall under a broad umbrella that considers the use of computers and networking to perpetuate crimes that are in most cases addressed specifically by law and have become part of the current criminal vernacular. Then we have to consider the remaining terms on the list.
This leaves Internet suicide. So what is it? The article defines it as "a suicide pact made between individuals who meet on the Internet." Is it a crime? Not specifically, at least in terms of laws prohibiting such. It becomes a crime if someone uses computer/internet to persuade others into entering and completing a pact without actually participating. At that point it isn't a suicide pact. At this point, this concept still remains vague and undetermined in scope.
What troubles me about this article is that it seems to try and create a new broad topic. It doesn't use the term to define how a victim is killed. It tries to define how a victim is found. That doesn't fall under the umbrella of new crime, only new MO, and doesn't define something different than is already addressed in various articles. I can't see how this term differs in anyway from Internet killer, Internet chat room killer, Craigslist killer, Internet serial killer, lonelyhearts killer, want ad killers or a myriad of other journalese terms. This article reads a lot more like investigative journalism (read that synthesis) into a new phenomenon and I honestly still cannot see how this does not skirt original research, especially if the article tries to define something new. One of the sources that supposedly supports a definitional term is here. It says it is from teaching text and has a definition. Um, sorry, but that is far from clear. It isn't definitional, it looks like an overhead projector type of headline which would be used to generate further discussion or lecture on a topic. I'd also like to see the first reference, Psychiatric mental health nursing, Katherine M. Fortinash, Patricia A. Holoday-Worret, 2007, in context, since it uses nearly identical wording to the handout ref. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I truly think the quote in context is quite important. It says "Internet Homicide: Luring a person from a chat room to an actual meeting. Can turn deadly" is not a definition of a crime, intent, or action. Again, it is a topic.
Right now, the lead paragraph is all that tries to specifically define what "Internet homicide" is, and right now, it fails to do so. All it does at the moment is attempt to define a new term, which is doesn't do. The rest of the article tends to regurgitate content covered from other articles rather than present new content supported clearly by reliably published sources. Using "internet homicide" implies something that isn't currently established as anything new or different. The internet isn't the weapon and this terminology is misleading in that it tends to imply something new. Wildhartlivie ( talk) 23:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Besides the issues about content and synthesis, I have an issue with the term "internet homicide". While homicide doesn't by definition mean an act covered under law, in general, the use of the word does imply legality. This is where negligent homicide, vehicular homicide, etc. become pertinent. In general, nomenclature using the word homicide tends to group terms into a legal category and there is nothing whatsoever in regard to this article that falls under that. As I stated earlier, this article addresses MO, not a specific crime nor a new term. I see its use as no different than other similar topics such as lonelyhearts killer. It isn't a new phenomenon, it is an approach to luring victims, something alluded to in the talk page section Talk:Internet homicide#Anonymity of the Internet section. I don't have another suggestion, but I had one less issue with this when the article was called Internet killer. By the way, I have similar misgivings about the article Consensual homicide. All it is is a rehash of physician-assisted suicide/euthanasia. My real feeling is that all of these articles need to be clarified, combined and organized with some sort of consistency in regard to the overriding meaning, not how many sources can be found using different types of vernacular. Wildhartlivie ( talk) 08:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
ok, after sitting with it a bit, I think maybe we can transform this whole article into something less contentious. I suggest we re-conceive the as an "Internet and Death" article: then we can have sections on internet homicide (separating actual and fictional ats), internet suicide, and even cover other related issues (email or web death threats, Timothy Leary's online suicide, the the use of the internet by the Columbine killers), without making more (or less) of the subject than it deserves, or making any unwarranted synthesis between speculative and actual events. what do you all think? -- Ludwigs2 13:53, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Would it be too outside normal procedures to invite an uninvolved editor (
User:Icestorm815, perhaps) to consider looking over this talkpage section after a reasonable amount of time and figure out which, if any, proposal has the most support? In any case, after the first five participants' initial comments in this section, my own guess would be that the current title,
Internet homicide retains the most support (given that its several supporters from above on the talkpage haven't said elsewise and no other title as of yet has as much support at least yet, IMO.
↜Just M E here , now 16:40, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I am no angel. I'm sorry that I reacted so adversarily, when I came to the general subject of Internet related killings, to V's insistance that Cat and my and others contributions to a page dedicated to this subject not be allowed to progress. Mea culpa.
Yeah I've an interest in the subject. Say it was, by analogy, the newspapers' fascination in drownings in Lock Ness. (To analogy haters: WARNING. DO NOT READ AHEAD!) Say I shared an interest in that. I write, "So and so disappeared in the loch on this date blah blah." Somebody deletes, "So what! WP:NN!" I counter, "I got plenty of WP:RS for incidents and think a listing is notable enough." Then it turns instead of a discussion of Lockness drownings a discussion about how this other person is a pain in the butt and I'm a jerk. Fine. But sort of counterproductive to the project. (I say, "The other editor started his OWN page about general deaths, drowning and car accidents, etc., in Inverness, Scotland! It's a WP:CFORK!!!! He just doesn't want me and certain others to contribute to the encyclopedia!" And the other editor counters: "Justme is disruptive. S/he's worrying about the name of the article. S/he should just leave.") I'd offer a truce but doubt that would be as much fun for the participants who like this stuff. So instead I offer you up this talkpage subsection. Have at it and add your pithy comments and put downs and worries about others' whacky editing practices and behaviors below. Enjoy! {smiles} ↜Just M E here , now 05:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
While "internet homicide"/"internet killer" might be a "meme" (not too sure about that, myself), and may be a "term of art" or "journalese" those are pretty specific claims and there's no support for actually calling them that in the article. Repeatedly, a number of killers have been nicknamed after their use of the internet to find victims, "internet killer" in particular, that's about as much as could be said, I think. Some would dispute even that that much could be written. Шизомби ( talk) 02:32, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Mercer County Prosecutors Office: "Man Pleads Guilty in Cyber Slay Case. An East Windsor man pleaded guilty today to aggravated manslaughter in the 1996 killing of a man he met through a sex 'chat room' on the Internet, Mercer County Prosecutor Daniel G. Giaquinto announced. George 'Chip' Hemenway (DOB 1/16/57), of the first block of Jeffrey Lane, had been indicted on murder and weapons offenses in the Jan. 4, 1996 death of Jesse M. Unger, 38, of Mark Twain Drive in Hamilton." ↜Just M E here , now 03:11, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Not sure if this merits a new section on the talk page. Some editors were complaining about how "internet killer" makes too much of how the killers located their victims, and how it plays into the demonization of the internet, and the limited meta-writing about the creation and use of the label itself, complaints I agree with to some extent myself. Found some sources along these lines: Rapp, Paul. "Don’t Blame Craig" http://www.metroland.net/rapp_this.html (which also accuses newspapers of backlash against Craigslist for loss of advertising revenue) and Harris, Leslie. "Because 'Classified Ad Killer' Doesn't Have the Same Ring" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-harris/because-classified-ad-kil_b_190965.html I just stumbled across these, at this point there may be more writing on the subject so it's worth another search maybe. Шизомби ( talk) 18:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Another article speculating on why the term stuck and bringing up moral panic: Sex, murder and the outbreak of moral panic [12] (appears to mistakenly use assonant instead of consonant, however, tsk). Some uncertainty about who originated the name, some say police [13], some say tabloids [14]. Шизомби ( talk) 18:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Other articles critical of the terms "Craigslist Killer" and "Internet Killer": Christopher Lochhead, "The Scapegoating of Craigslist: Where's Mainstream Media's Perspective Gone?" http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/19/opinion/main5025322.shtml Julie Hilden, "How the Internet Can Help Crime Victims and How Too Much Privacy Can Hurt Them" http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hilden/20010528.html Anyway, I hope to get back to working on this article. Found a number of other people called some variation on "internet killer" both real and fictional, and more articles making links between those people. Шизомби ( talk) 08:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
"A man from Germany has been jailed for life for stabbing a Nottingham student 86 times after stalking his girlfriend. David Heiss, 21, from Limburg, became infatuated with 20-year-old Matthew Pyke's girlfriend Joanna Witton, 21, during repeated internet exchanges ... Det Ch Insp Tony Heydon from Nottinghamshire Police warned people about the dangers of the internet: "It is the worst case I have dealt with. It is a horrific incident, a very pre-planned premeditated murder. The scene we found on the day was horrific and what happened to Matthew was a terrible act, everyone is shocked about what happened. David Heiss was very clever on the internet, and he learned a lot of information about Joanna Witton and Matthew Pyke and others. It is very, very interesting that he could do that. One of the things that's important here is that people need to realise that on their computers there is a lot of personal information that other people can gather. We know that Heiss found out a lot of information about where they lived and where they worked and all sorts of things about their social network that perhaps now with hindsight they wouldn't want him to know. So people need to bear that in mind when they are on their own systems using Facebook, people need to be careful."" Web murderer given life sentence, BBC Fences and windows ( talk) 19:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
youtube of local KATU news report ↜Just M E here , now 04:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Another source pouring cold water on claims of the internet as a causal agent in murders: [15]. A legal theorist pressed for an "internet angle" on a murder by a journalist related that "I asked her whether, if I called her up and asked her out on a blind date and murdered her, she would think it was a "telephone-related murder"?". Fences and windows ( talk) 19:33, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Is the phrase "such as in World of Warcraft, Call of Duty, Halo, or other online games" really necessary in the opening sentence? Sounds like more anti-game Bullcrap to me. There are many more ways a person can be met online, many predating the Online Gaming boom. Quatreryukami ( talk) 18:49, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
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The section on Internet dating has a single source that states that "[...] since 1995, there's been [...] over 400 instances where a homicide has been related to the person that [the victim] met online." This source is no longer available on the original site; it is available on the Internet Archive, though that doesn't include the video. The archived version of the page includes a transcript that says 40, not 400, instances of homicides since 1995 (as of 2007) had been linked to people the victim met online; as the video is not available, it's hard to say if the transcript is accurate. So four things:
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