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I spotted this while getting the above Behe quote:
"Its principal argument is that certain features of the universe are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than undirected causes such as Darwin's theory of natural selection." - Pamphlet used by the Dover Area School District, agreed as accurate by Behe.
This might be worth adding, but it's a bit of an odd source, so I didn't want to just go ahead and do so. As an aside, I like "undirected causes" better than "undirected processes", but assembling our favourite parts of all the variants would become more awkward than just paraphrasing in the end, and "Darwin's theory of" is just awful. Adam Cuerden talk 18:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:A does not require, and never required, a direct citation for every statement in an article. Summaries and other descriptions of one or more aspects of a topic quite frequently involve a consensus process about how something will be expressed in "original language", which is quite different from "original research". The additional footnotes, as FeloniousMonk has previously observed and with which I agree at this stage of discussion, help to make clear, to persons whose wont is to make hasty conclusions or assert pre-conceived conclusions about some aspect of the content, that the article reflects a great deal of attention to sourcing. Occasionally, there is legiimate question about whether a particular footnote properly reflects the article-statement(s) to which it is appended, or vice-versa. In my personal opinion that's more than fair enough (assuming it's a rational question), and I believe there may still be some more work to be done on those 170-or-so footnotes. ... Kenosis 13:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I was referring above to the specific content of citations, for instance several of the footnotes in the "Defining intelligent design as science" section and perhaps a few others too. Please do not combine citations. Not only is it important to make clear that there are separate sources involved in supporting many of the statements in the article, a fair number of the citations in this article are derived from the same sources (especially but not limited to the Kitzmiller v. Dover decision), but they actually refer specifically to different places in those sources. Please keep'm separate. If one or more turns out to be erroneous or misplaced, it should be able to be dealt with by referring to a specific number (e.g. "currently footnote x" or "presently footnote y"). No objection to standardizing the format (though I personally dislike those forms that've been used by many on WP of late). The present method of presentation appears to be that quotations are put first in the footnote with the source placed after the quote, a method I'm willing to support-- any thoughts about this? ... Kenosis 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
In the first paragraph the adjective "modern" implies some positive judgment on this form of the argument, while "recent" would be a more neutral one.-- BMF81 23:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The article currently states that the first written record of the idea of a designer came from Greek philosophers, but nearly every culture in the world has some type of creation story. I really only know about western traditions, but the old testament surely pre-dates the greek. Is it because these creation stories are considered religious writing and the Greeks are considered philosophical writings the reason the Greek are used here?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.70.121 ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 29 May 2007
the 'concept' of Intelligent design. The first sentence should state that it is a marketing ploy. Xavier cougat 17:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Jiohdi 17:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
ID is not internally consistent. It begins with the assertion that complex things can only exist if designed. So there must be a designer. But the designer was not designed by a designer. So, if the designer exists the original assertion is untrue. This takes us back into babel fish territory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.193.200.51 ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC).
Heads up on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cradle of Humanity - Cradle of humanity is some sort of comparison of Evolutionary and Creationist views of the Out of Africa theory... Adam Cuerden talk 08:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I think you guys are doing an excellent job keeping such a high quality on this controversial topic, but about the footnotes... Sadly, on many articles, these footnotes aren't so much helpful to rational readers, but are perhaps used to prove the point to POV-pushers. This is a pity. Here is the suggestion. Why not create a separate evidence page as a sub-page of this talk page, and keep all the refs there, normal readers would need one or two refs for many of these claims. Additionally, I'm sure there is some policy that forbids this, but what would be the harm in replacing a bunch of footnotes with a single footnote saying "Evidence for this claim is available here" or something like that? Many apologies if this has already been discussed, but I really felt like I wanted to say this. I'm not going to push this issue any further so thanks for considering it, Merzul 12:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I added this to the overview section: "The Harris poll also showed that a majority of U.S. adults (54%) do not think human beings developed from earlier species." I thought to bring up a poll and only show one narrow aspect of it was slightly bias, what does everyone else think? ( Dbcraft 18:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
Thus, although I see the relevance of the Zogby poll of the Los Alamos community, I do not see the relevance of the Harris Poll or any other. As for other polls of popular belief in the US, here are a couple more examples:
Propose the following link to an extensive list of references on the origins and use of the term "Intelligent Design":
ResearchID maintains the Intelligent Design timetable summarizing origins and use of the term "Intelligent Design". DLH 19:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Kenosis Please show the policy denying reference to any wiki. Wikipedia itself provides for numerous internal links which are by definition to a wiki. Wikipedia provides anti-ID links. If you deny any references to wikis, then you must also delete
That's a nice timeline, relatively very thorough even if it has some noticeable gaps.
(1) It is not conventional practice in WP to refer folks in the fashion proposed above, even internally within WP to such subpages, unless its an article about the timeline.
(2) In the case of intelligent design, we have two timelines involved, one of which is the history of the teleological argument, and the other of which is the history of the use of the words "intelligent design". The words "intelligent design" didn't become a term intended to describe a field of study until Of Pandas and People, when they were used to replace the word "creation-" in response to the decision in Edwards v. Aguilard.
I notice, though, that Walter R. Thurston uses the words "intelligent design" and "intelligently designed" in a paper titled "Realism and Reverence" presented in 1985 at a conference on "Christian Faith and Science in Society", which was later published in June 1987, the same month of the Edwards v. Aguilard decision, in PSCF, "Perspectives on Science & Christian Faith". He uses the words in exactly the same way as James E. Horigan does in the 1979 philosophy book Chance or Design?. I think this usage should be mentioned in the WP article section on "Origins of the term". ... Kenosis 20:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Methinks Adam's idea would be as a separate article: it could be stripped down to a more minimal timeline, or made into a brief historical outline. At present it's become more of a resource, with a lot of quotes etc. which could be paraphrased. On a point Kenosis makes, this is a third timeline, perhaps more about the ID movement though of course it and ID are inextricably connected. It currently seems to me that ID appeared fully formed between 1987 and 1989 with Pandas defining what it is and starting political lobbying, while in parallel Johnson's wedge ideas developed and didn't adopt the term until 1991 at the earliest. It would be helpful to know if Darwin on Trial uses the term "intelligent design" – all I've got at present is an unreliable source indicating a few mentions in the 1993 edition, but none of the reviews or Johnson's writings that I've seen mention ID. Certainly Behe contributed to Pandas rev. 2 in 1993, and by May 1995 Johnson is promoting the term. The DI takeover really seems to come with the CRSC in 1996. Perhaps this something y'all know about, but it's still a bit puzzling to me. Anyway, the ResearchID timeline is a useful guide to resources, though not a RS itself, but is largely focussed on giving a respectable pedigree to ID rather than finding out what's going on. In my opinion. ... dave souza, talk 21:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
This looks like a bit of controversy.-- Filll 16:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Could Morphh & Pasado please stop edit-warring and discuss there differences here! Specifically, could Morphh please explain why they think calling ID creationism is POV in spite of noted historian of creationism Ronald Numbers including a whole chapter on ID in his latest edition of The Creationists and in spite of Judge Jones declaring "...and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents." Would he also consider these to be "POV" sources? Hrafn42 14:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Ooh, fun! Lots to hand at s:Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District/2:Context, Page 31 of 139 has "A “hypothetical reasonable observer,” adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is also presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism.,, The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism. What is likely the strongest evidence supporting the finding of ID’s creationist nature is the history and historical pedigree of the book to which students in Dover’s ninth grade biology class are referred, Pandas.", Page 35 of 139 has " there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism." .. best read in context, .. dave souza, talk 20:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Morphh:
Hrafn42 15:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Would it be less controversial to describe ID as Neo-creationism:
Neo-creationism is a movement whose goal is to restate creationism in terms more likely to be well received by the public, policy makers, educators, and the scientific community. It aims to re-frame the debate over the origins of life in non-religious terms and without appeals to scripture. This comes in response to the 1987 ruling by the United States Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard that creationism is an inherently religious concept and that advocating it as correct or accurate in public school curricula violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
This description seems to fit ID quite well (unsurprising, as ID is to date the only widely-promoted form on Neo-creationism). Hrafn42 18:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
*It is a form of creationism,[4][5]a modification of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God which avoids specifying the identity of the designer or using the word "creation" .[6][7][8] .
Is this the appropriate language? Thoughts? As well, we still need to discuss citations of course. ... Kenosis 22:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent>I don't think that the Dave/Morphh proposal works very well, purely as a matter of language. As it stands, it seems (to me, at least) to say that creationism is "a modification of the ... teleological argument", which isn't the case. There are two seperate propositions that this sentence asserts: (a) ID is a form of creationism, (b) ID is a version of the teleological argument; I don't see how these can be combined in one sentence, and I don't think that "It is a form of creationism and a modification of the teleological argument" would be acceptable. As I see it, this comes back to our perennial problem with the definition of ID. The statement "ID is a version of the teleological argument" depends on our defining ID as a claim/assertion/proposition, or whatever word we choose to be least contentious. If, however, we're moving towards a definition of ID as a form of creationism, then this isn't appropriate. Creationism isn't an argument (or a claim, or an assertion) - it's an ideology, or a viewpoint, or a Weltanschauung, or something of the sort. Creationists (and ID proponents) may (and do) _use_ the teleological argument, but, if ID is defined as creationism, it becomes impossible to describe it _as_ the teleological argument. If we're going to define ID as creationism (which, naturally, I support), then we should say this up-front, and make it clear that "teleological argument" is a characterization of the DI statment. I would support something along the lines of:
Intelligent design is a form of creationism, based on the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is a modern form of the teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.
But this goes even further than Pasado's proposed version, and is unlikely to be acceptable to everyone... Tevildo 22:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Morphh wishes to return to the topic. To summarise:
So Morphh, if this omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable designer isn't the Abrahamic God, then who is (s)he? Hrafn42 14:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm sick of all this. We have three reputable sources (the Kitzmiller descision, Ronald Numbers and Barbara Forrest) that ID is Creationism. We have been presented with no reputable sources to the contrary, just a bunch of shoddy OR and hearsay. Therefore I would suggest that, unless and until evidence from reputable sources is presented that ID is not in fact Creationism, that ID should be prominantly described as Creationism in the article. Hrafn42 15:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Let's take a look at Morphh's 'reliable sources':
None of the these individuals have a reputation for honesty or good scholarship. All of them have a reputation for making unfounded claims outside their fields of expertise. None of the sources cited are scholarly. Additionally, all are members of the DI, so have a vested interest in denying that ID is Creationism.
Additionally, I would like to introduce the following quote from Phillip Johnson [6] as an 'admission against interest' (i.e. the opposite of a self-serving statement, and thus a statement with considerable evidential value):
My colleagues and I speak of "theistic realism" -- or sometimes, "mere creation" --as the defining concept of our movement. This means that we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology. We avoid the tangled arguments about how or whether to reconcile the Biblical account with the present state of scientific knowledge, because we think these issues can be much more constructively engaged when we have a scientific picture that is not distorted by naturalistic prejudice. If life is not simply matter evolving by natural selection, but is something that had to be designed by a creator who is real, then the nature of that creator, and the possibility of revelation, will become a matter of widespread interest among thoughtful people who are currently being taught that evolutionary science has show God to be a product of the human imagination.
Hrafn42 17:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Let me respond to West's baseless assertions [7]:
Hrafn42 17:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, one of Morphh's own sources, William Dembski, is the author of a book entitled Mere Creation; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design-- a very odd title if "Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation." Hrafn42 17:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Further, if ID is not Creationism, then why did numerous ID proponents (including two of Morphh's sources, William Demsbki and Stephen C Meyer) present a conference entitled Mere Creation: Scholars United Under Intelligent Design? Hrafn42 18:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Earlier I told Morphh:
I would like to point out that none of the sources Morphh cited satisfy any of these three points. Hrafn42
Here are citations from Kitzmiller v. Dover that refer to ID as a form of creationism, or explain in some relevant way how it is a form of creationism, with page numbers. ... Kenosis 22:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
p18 An Objective Observer Would Know that ID and Teaching About “Gaps” and “Problems” in Evolutionary Theory are Creationist, Religious Strategies that Evolved from Earlier Forms of Creationism
p31-32 A “hypothetical reasonable observer,” adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is also presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism. Child Evangelism, 386 F.3d at 531 (citations omitted); Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 624-25. The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism. What is likely the strongest evidence supporting the finding of ID’s creationist nature is the history and historical pedigree of the book to which students in Dover’s ninth grade biology class are referred, Pandas. Pandas is published by an organization called FTE, as noted, whose articles of incorporation and filings with the Internal Revenue Service describe it as a religious, Christian organization. (P-461; P-28; P-566; P-633; p32 Buell Dep. 1:13, July 8, 2005). Pandas was written by Dean Kenyon and Percival Davis, both acknowledged creationists, and Nancy Pearcey, a Young Earth Creationist, contributed to the work. (10:102-08 (Forrest)).
p32 As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court’s decision in Edwards, which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE’s argument that by merely disregarding the words “creation” and “creationism,” FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas. In early pre- Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term “creation” was defined as “various forms of life that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features
p33 intact – fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc,” the very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions. (P- 560 at 210; P-1 at 2-13; P-562 at 2-14, P-652 at 2-15; P-6 at 99-100; P-11 at 99- 100; P-856.2.). This definition was described by many witnesses for both parties, notably including defense experts Minnich and Fuller, as “special creation” of kinds of animals, an inherently religious and creationist concept. (28:85-86 (Fuller); Minnich Dep. at 34, May 26, 2005; Trial Tr. vol. 1, Miller Test., 141-42, Sept. 26, 2005; 9:10 (Haught); Trial Tr. vol. 33, Bonsell Test., 54-56, Oct. 31, 2005). Professor Behe’s assertion that this passage was merely a description of appearances in the fossil record is illogical and defies the weight of the evidence that the passage is a conclusion about how life began based upon an interpretation of the fossil record, which is reinforced by the content of drafts of Pandas. The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic change from “creation” to “intelligent design” occurred sometime in 1987, after the Supreme Court’s important Edwards decision. This compelling evidence strongly supports Plaintiffs’ assertion that ID is creationism re-labeled. Importantly, the objective observer, whether adult or child, would conclude from the fact that Pandas posits a master intellect that the intelligent designer is God. Further evidence in support of the conclusion that a reasonable observer,
p34 adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism concerns the fact that ID uses the same, or exceedingly similar arguments as were posited in support of creationism. One significant difference is that the words “God,” “creationism,” and “Genesis” have been systematically purged from ID explanations, and replaced by an unnamed “designer.” Dr. Forrest testified and sponsored exhibits showing six arguments common to creationists. (10:140-48 (Forrest); P-856.5-856.10). Demonstrative charts introduced through Dr. Forrest show parallel arguments relating to the rejection of naturalism, evolution’s threat to culture and society, “abrupt appearance” implying divine creation, the exploitation of the same alleged gaps in the fossil record, the alleged inability of science to explain complex biological information like DNA, as well as the theme that proponents of each version of creationism merely aim to teach a scientific alternative to evolution to show its “strengths and weaknesses,” and to alert students to a supposed “controversy” in the scientific community. (10:140-48 (Forrest)). In addition, creationists made the same argument that the complexity of the bacterial flagellum supported creationism as Professors Behe and Minnich now make for ID. (P-853; P-845; 37:155-56 (Minnich)). The IDM openly welcomes adherents to creationism into its “Big Tent,” urging them to postpone biblical disputes like the age of the
p35 earth. (11:3-15 (Forrest); P-429). Moreover and as previously stated, there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism. (Fuller Dep. at 67, June 21, 2005) (indicated that ID is a modern view of creationism). Although contrary to Fuller, defense experts Professors Behe and Minnich testified that ID is not creationism, their testimony was primarily by way of bare assertion and it failed to directly rebut the creationist history of Pandas or other evidence presented by Plaintiffs showing the commonality between creationism and ID. The sole argument Defendants made to distinguish creationism from ID was their assertion that the term “creationism” applies only to arguments based on the Book of Genesis, a young earth, and a catastrophic Noaich flood; however, substantial evidence established that this is only one form of creationism, including the chart that was distributed to the Board Curriculum Committee, as will be described below. (P-149 at 2; 10:129-32 (Forrest); P-555 at 22-24). Having thus provided the social and historical context in which the ID Policy arose of which a reasonable observer, either adult or child would be aware, we will now focus on what the objective student alone would know. We will accordingly determine whether an objective student would view the disclaimer read to the ninth grade biology class as an official endorsement of religion.
p42
In other words, the disclaimer relies upon the very same
“contrived dualism” that the court in McLean recognized to be a creationist tactic
that has “no scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose.” McLean,
529 F. Supp. at 1266.6
6 The McLean court explained that:
The approach to teaching ‘creation science’ and ‘evolution science’ . . . is identical to the
two-model approach espoused by the Institute for Creation Research and is taken almost
verbatim from ICR writings. It is an extension of Fundamentalists’ view that one must
either accept the literal interpretation of Genesis or else believe in the godless system of
evolution.
The two model approach of creationists is simply a contrived dualism which has no
scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose. It assumes only two
explanations for the origins of life and existence of man, plants and animals: it was either
the work of a creator or it was not. Application of these two models, according to
creationists, and the defendants, dictates that all scientific evidence which fails to support
the theory of evolution is necessarily scientific evidence in support of creationism and is,
therefore, creation science ‘evidence[.]’
529 F. Supp. at 1266 (footnote omitted)(emphasis added).
p43 The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.
p44 Whether a student accepts the Board’s invitation to explore Pandas, and reads a creationist text, or follows the Board’s other suggestion and discusses “Origins of Life” with family members, that objective student can reasonably infer that the District’s favored view is a religious one, and that the District is accordingly sponsoring a form of religion.
p49 In summary, the disclaimer singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere.
p56 An objective adult member of the Dover community would also be presumed to know that ID and teaching about supposed gaps and problems in evolutionary theory are creationist religious strategies that evolved from earlier forms of creationism, as we previously detailed.
p69-70 [Under the heading "Whether ID is science", the decision quotes the NAS as follows:] Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science. These claims subordinate observed data to statements based on authority, revelation, or
70 religious belief. Documentation offered in support of these claims is typically limited to the special publications of their advocates. These publications do not offer hypotheses subject to change in light of new data, new interpretations, or demonstration of error. This contrasts with science, where any hypothesis or theory always remains subject to the possibility of rejection or modification in the light of new knowledge.
p71 ID is at bottom premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed. (5:41 (Pennock)). This argument is not brought to this Court anew, and in fact, the same argument, termed “contrived dualism” in McLean, was employed by creationists in the 1980's to support “creation science.” The court in McLean noted the “fallacious pedagogy of the two model approach” and that “[i]n efforts to establish ‘evidence’ in support of creation science, the defendants relied upon the same false premise as the two model approach . . . all evidence which criticized evolutionary theory was proof in support of creation science.” McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1267, 1269. We do not find this false dichotomy any more availing to justify ID today than it was to justify creation science two decades ago.
p91 The purpose inquiry involves consideration of the ID Policy’s language, “enlightened by its context and contemporaneous legislative history[,]” including, in this case, the broader context of historical and ongoing religiously driven attempts to advance creationism while denigrating evolution. (citing to Selman, 390 F. Supp. Supp. 2d at 1300; and Edwards v. Aguilard)
p107 Accordingly, as accurately submitted by Plaintiffs, we find that the Board Curriculum Committee knew as early as June 2004 that ID was widely considered by numerous observers to be a form of creationism.
p112 There is no evidence that the Board heeded even one iota of the Solicitor’s detailed and prudent warning. We also find the email to be persuasive, additional evidence that the Board knew that ID is considered a form of creationism.
p114 The testimony at trial stunningly revealed that Buckingham and Bonsell tried to hide the source of the donations because it showed, at the very least, the extraordinary measures taken to ensure that students received a creationist alternative to Darwin’s theory of evolution.
p120 Finally, Spahr warned the full Board that ID amounted to creationism and could not be taught legally. (24:102 (Nilsen); 35:14-15 (Baksa)).
p131 As exhaustively detailed herein, the thought leaders on the Board made it their considered purpose to inject some form of creationism into the science classrooms, and by the dint of their personalities and persistence they were able to pull the majority of the Board along in their collective wake.
p136 ... we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.
"In the same book, he also points out that natural selection is in many ways the opposite of chance. Dembski's specified complexity may eliminate chance, perhaps, but it says nothing about natural selection." Is this really POV? What do you think?-- Filll 15:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
From, http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page12021.asp or The register spin, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/25/id_not_science/
"The Government is clear that creationism and intelligent design are not part of the science National Curriculum programmes of study and should not be taught as science."
Well at least the UK is a lot clearer !. Ttiotsw 12:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Morphh has suggested that both (all?) sides should be presented. Taking him at his word, I would like to suggest the following section, entitled 'Mere Creation':
Although proponents of intelligent design frequently deny that it is Creationism or has a religious foundation, they also frequently discuss intelligent design in explicitly religious, and even Creationist, terms. Phillip Johnson has called "Mere Creation" the "defining concept of our movement," and this concept has made its way into book (Mere Creation; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design by William Dembski) and conference (Mere Creation: Scholars United Under Intelligent Design, a conference at which several prominent intelligent design advocates, including Stephen C. Meyer, William A. Dembski, Michael J. Behe and Phillip Johnson, presented) titles on the subject. Dembski has described intelligent design as "just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory."
Hrafn42 03:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
If anything requires a section, it seems to me that the issue of whether ID is a form of creationism may require one, in light of the complexities already discussed above. There already is a section on defining ID as science, so I don't see any reason to rule out a brief section summarizing the relationship of ID to the class of beliefs, philosophies and advocacy positions that, according to the WP:reliable sources, are reasonably termed "creationism". ... Kenosis 14:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
A link to this cartoon is contained in WP:NPOVFAQ: http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20040825.html I think it's topical. Hrafn42 17:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with having Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center - Intelligent Design FAQs & Primers in the links. Besides User:Odd_nature removing it for incorrect reasons like "Undergraduate clubs", who objects? -- Yqbd 15:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center - Intelligent Design FAQs & Primers is much more informative and relevant to this article than the site's front page. -- Yqbd 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The site is not a undergraduate club or even a club. Please, read [9]. -- Yqbd 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
User:Odd_nature is reverting with false reasoning. S/he should read [10]. -- Yqbd 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The FAQ and Primers page is more related to the article. IDEA Center's FAQs and Primer page is well organized.-- Yqbd 16:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The Intelligent Design FAQs & Primers page summarizes and organizes information from other ID sites. -- Yqbd 16:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I object to linking against the faq. At one point during your edit war with most other editors of this article, someone removed the link to the faq, and replaced it with a link to the main site. I agree with that editorial decision, and I must question your motives for reverting that edit. The link you provided is POV and non-factual. It is inappropriate for the article to present the faq as though it were a reliable reference. Silly rabbit 15:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should even link to the IDEA main page considering IDEA clubs are for addled undergraduates gather and compare their notes on ID and organize their efforts to disrupt Wikipedia, and not sources of notable ID thought and writing. But if we do include a link to the IDEA club main site, it should be to the homepage only; per WP:NOT Wikipedia articles are not link farms. Odd nature 16:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
This is not an article about the IDEA Center. This is an article about ID. If anyone wants to view the IDEA Center's FAQ, they can navigate there from their main page themselves. – Fatalis 17:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Object to the link -- IDEACenter appears to be little more than a DI astroturf organisation, rather than a source of new information on ID. Should we also include Dembski's www.overwhelmingevidence.com? Hrafn42 17:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I also object linking to the FAQ, and honestly I have no idea why a link to the main page should be included. The site contain inaccuracies and personal attacks (there's currently an article about "the gospel of evolution according to Sean B. Carroll"), I don't see any relevant information on the website. Wikipedia is not a link farm, we should not include all the websites of creationists/evolutionists, and, in my opinion we should remove some links in the External Links section, many are not relevant (Italian/Finnish Intelligent Design site ?). - PhDP 23:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with linking to the main page. I think this 501(c) is more appropriate then some of the others, particularly on the Non-ID perspective (wikis, ACLU, etc). The external links section needs a good cleanup for WP:EL guidelines. The entire media section can go. If they're good links, then they should be used as a reference - otherwise, get rid of them. Morphh (talk) 17:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Why not write an article about the IDEA clubs for Wikipedia instead of engaging in stupid edit wars?-- Filll 17:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Following WP:EL, I think we should remove the following links;
First;
It would be absurd to provide links tp all departments of evolutionary biology or tp all associations promoting evolution, I don't understand why we do this for IDists.
IMO, it violates guideline #1, there's nothing unique to this site. Also, there's many interesting links in the Non-ID subsection (e.g.:The Design Argument by Sober, E.), but there's already close to 200 references in this article, perhaps The Design Argument should be quoted somewhere but I think many links are not very useful.
- PhDP 03:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I wish I could agree with you, except that in many Islamic countries, it is forbidden to teach evolution even at the college or graduate school level. Turkey is one of the more liberal, and it has just suffered an immense backslide. This has also recently been an issue in Poland and Holland and Russia and several other countries, in addition to the UK (where the movement seems to have had tacit approval from the Government, or at least the cabinet, and recent public opinion polls show strong support for creationism, almost as strong as in the US). Therefore, these movements give every appearance of spreading. Even if these movements might be somewhat small at the moment in most foreign countries, they bear watching. The extent of these movements should be tracked and catalogued. Otherwise, we not only are not describing the situation accurately, but we are leaving ourselves open to attack by foreign editors for even having any articles on these subjects at all. And I believe that the removal or scaling back of these articles would not serve the readership of WP well. -- Filll 10:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
A creationist museum just opened in Canada. There are mounting concerns in Canada about emerging creationist efforts. I have had many conversations with a creationist in Australia who has a very different impression of what the situation is in Australia from what I gather from the media. And the recent public opinion poll results in the UK about creationism speak volumes, I think. The situation might not be near as serious in other countries, but I think that creationism is a threat in many countries, and that we should recognize it as such.-- Filll 11:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
In the opening definition, you quote "...best explained by an intelligent cause ...", but at least even one Discovery Institute writer (Dr. Behe) allows for there to have been intelligent causes (plural). Dr. Behe says that the theory of aliens from other planets bringing life to earth falls within the purviews of the intelligent design movement (Darwin's Black Box). Not only is this plural in the sense of there being more than one alien, but it could have been different aliens from different planets at different times making their contributions, or even aliens from the same place doing so for more than one intelligent reason.
So my first point is that you narrowly pick one definition for intelligent design from one Discovery Institute contributor, and erroneously apply that as the same definition that all the Discovery Institute leaders would give ... and if that much is wrong, it is definitely erroneous to think that every intelligent design leader or adherent would also give that same definition.
My second point is that the Dover School Board could be seen as leaders in the intelligent design movement in the political field - pioneers in defining a bold policy, yet they went ahead and acted in defiance of the advice given to them by the Discovery Institute. When Barbara Forrest (footnote 7) says that absolutely all of the intelligent design leaders are from the Discovery Institute, she is using a specific definition of leader. The Discovery Institute may be the leader insofar as media attention - what with all the press and all their books and popular efforts - but that does not make them the leading scientists in the field of intelligent design, nor the only political leaders, etc. There most be room for the movement to go on and new leaders to pick up where old ones left off. To deny the new leaders the privilege of using the "intelligent design" label just because they are not members of the Discovery Institute would be unfair and overly-restrictive.
My third point branches off from that. There must be room for the Intelligent Deisign movement to expand and grow, even when work on intelligent design is outside of the Discovery Institute. I've written a book entitled Getting Past the Culture Wars: Regarding Intelligent Design. The way this can be accomplished is to drop two of the most disappointing features of the early Discovery Institute movement, namely, the emphasis on the supernatural, and the antagonism towards Darwinian evolution. A modern ID movement which is both naturalistic and evolution-friendly would render most of your Wikipedia article moot, but it would still be Intelligent Design theory according to the original concept.
I would love to add my book to your article, but I wouldn't dare. The thing that bugs me, though, is that even if one of my readers tries to add my book to the Wikipedia discussion of Intelligent Design, you would try to use Discovery Institute sources to prove that my book's proposals are really not related to ID at all, since I am not a Discovery Institute fellow, and since my name was not brought up in the Dover trial. What kind of logic is that?
We can agree that evidence of intelligent causes does not constitute proof of the supernatural, and most scientists do not like to even infer the supernatural from the intelligent. Secondly, the definition that certain features can best be explained by an intelligent cause or intelligent causes, in no way dismisses certain other features which CAN best be explained by unidirected processes such as natural selection. It is no more anti-evolution to say that Darwinian explanations do not account for every characteristic of life forms on earth, than it would be anti-American to say that Americans did not come up with every technological advance on earth. The definition does not contrast the supernatural with the natural, but rather the intelligent causes with those causes which are non-intelligent. It never denies natural or unintelligent causes.
I attended a Dr. Shermer debate at Penn State Berks. It is very odd that he writes about debating the existence of a deity or intelligent designer, which is what he tried to do from his end, yet all the while Dr. Paul Nelson at the other podium never brought up either concept.
Dr. Nelson (of Discovery Institute) spoke of intelligent causes, not intelligent persons, and was very clear that he chose not to think of the intelligent causes as being supernatural. Dr. Shermer, on the other hand, talked about a God of the gaps, the super-natural, the age of the earth, and evidence for evolution.
Really, these two gentleman had no argument with each other. Dr. Shermer admitted the possibility of intelligent causes, provided we think of them as having a natural origin. Dr. Nelson said nothing to the contrary.
Dr. Nelson had nothing to say against evolution, nothing to say about the age of the earth, and nothing to say in favor of God or the supernatural during his 30-minute presentation of intelligent design. Dr. Shermer's only answer to Dr. Nelson's evidence of intelligent causes was to admit that it was very possible that they could in fact exist.
Dr. Robert F. DeHaan and Dr. Arthur V. Chadwick are two scientists that I quote in my book, and neither is from the Discovery Institute that I know of. They talk about an approach to ID which places ID "squarely in the natural order". So it is not just me who sees ANOTHER approach other than the one with supernatural implications.
This is the direction that I believe ID should go in the future: non-religious, and not antagonistic towards evolution. Your article is helping to stifle those changes and thwart my efforts by trying to put in concrete that ID is both about the supernatural and against evolution, much in the way that Judge Jones concluded at the Dover Trial. The Dover Trial was really against the Dover School Board, not the Discovery Institute. Even if the Discovery Institute could somehow have been justifiably implicated, it is not fair to talk as if the Dover Trial were truly against ID theory in and of itself, and against a movement which is much broader in perspective than what the Discovery Institute leaders may have originally bargained for. I don't think the Discovery Institute would be happy to have ID turned around to be a materialistic theory, since they would much rather see it lead people to God, but, as they say, one must follow the science where it leads.
Maybe it would be better to have one article about the Dover Trial and its conclusions, another about the Discovery Institute, and a third about Intelligent Design theory in general, instead of mixing up the trial and the Discovery Institute under the general heading of intelligent design. And what about separate headings for naturalistic intelligent design where religious and anti-evolution arguments play no part (no part, not as support, and not as criticism , because they would simply be irrelevant), and then a separate heading for creation-theory-related intelligent design where all the traditional debate sides can be presented?
Shrommer 03:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Although proponents of the IDM occasionally suggest that the designer could be a space alien or a time-traveling cell biologist, no serious alternative to God as the designer has been proposed by members of the IDM, including Defendants’ expert witnesses. (20:102-03 (Behe)). In fact, an explicit concession that the intelligent designer works outside the laws of nature and science and a direct reference to religion is Pandas’ rhetorical statement, “what kind of intelligent agent was it [the designer]” and answer: “On its own science cannot answer this question. It must leave it to religion and philosophy.”
Hrafn42 04:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, per Monk, the main concern here has to be the specter of original research. Once these theories come to represent a virtually undisputed bastion of creationist thinking, then we can incorporate them into Wikipedia articles. Until then, we should be wary of fringe ideas charming their way into the database. UberCryxic 21:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
On plurality of causes, Dr. Behe lists several non-intelligent causes for biological diverstity already accepted by mainstream science: common descent, natural selection, migration, population size, founder effects, genetic drift, linkage, meiotic drive, transposition, and much more. (Darwin's Black Box, Simon & Schuster, 1998, pp. 228-230.) Intelligent Design likewise allows for multiple forms of intelligent causes to all be found as factors in the development of life. There could be intracellular intelligence, intercellular intelligence, intelligent DNA, intelligent proteins, quantum intelligence, divine intelligence, natural intelligence as a universal principle, AND the intervention of alien intelligence from other planets.
Intelligent design has not nailed down where the intelligence lies, and does not try to with current research. For now, it only sees evidence of intelligence from the same deductions used to conclude that similar systems in the engineering fields have intelligent causes. The systems are similar in their being both specified and rare, or in evidences like closed-loops in biology, or in containing strings of information.
Recently we have discovered evidences of reasoning in birds where their behaviors were previously thought to have been only by instinct. We have also found ways to test for intelligence in other species, and believe we have found intelligence in monkeys, dolphins, etc. If intelligent design is pursued, ways will be devised to test for intelligence in sub-organism biology.
Another example I use is that there are different ways to account for flight: insect wings are different from feather wings are different from airplane wings are different from helicopter rotors are different from lighter-than-air lift. Up til now, we only understand intelligence on the neural level, like on the level of the brain organ. There is a whole new field of science waiting to be opened up about investigating other forms of intellgence in nature which could be behind the evolution of the species.
Shrommer 23:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like an interesting book. I read your comments about this wiki article and I agree with almost all of your points. There seems to be a lack of objectivity and lack of adherence to scientific principles here. Too much emphasis is on the politics and not enough on the science. Until the persons with political agendas who are controlling this article either get enlightened to true scientific principles or until wiki policies allow more science this article will be not a true representation of the subject matter. I will try to find your book. Octoplus 10:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
-- Filll 11:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Don't feed the unscientific: those who make unfounded claims. Octoplus 12:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I did some background-checking on Glenn Shrom. He currently teaches Spanish at The King's Academy [13] a hard-core Christian school [14], and has undergraduate degrees in Spanish and Music from Messiah College. [15] He appears to have no background in Science or Philosophy of Science, and to be just another self-appointed Creationist crank, and a particularly minor one at that, as he does not even appear to have had articles published by the normal wingnut crank outlets (Worldnetdaily, The Conservative Voice, etc), and seems to spend his time trying to defend his viewpoint on other people's blogs. Hrafn42 15:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Dear Monk, et al:
In an article titled "Show Me the Science," Daniel C. Dennett wrote, "no intelligent design hypothesis has even been ventured as a rival explanation of any biological phenomenon" (The New York Times, August 28, 2005). The proponents of intelligent design (ID) have nevertheless asserted that ID is a verified hypothesis (i.e., a scientific theory).
I tried to find ID stated in the form of a hypothesis – the assertion that phenomenon A caused phenomenon B. I could not find ID stated as a hypothesis so I crafted an intelligent design hypothesis that suits me. My IDH includes natural selection. The IDists at the Discovery Institute will probably not like my IDH but they have no standing to complain because, after years of ballyhooing about ID, they have never bothered to actually present ID in the form of a hypothesis that could become a scientific theory.
The Discovery Institutionists have claimed that ID is the “best” explanation for this and that, and they have claimed that life is so complex that life “must have been” designed and created by an intelligent designer. They have stated these opinions over and over but they have never actually asserted that an intelligent designer designed and created the universe. I decided to bring their obfuscationistic tactics to a screeching halt.
My definition of ID reads as follows: “Intelligent design is the assertion that many billions of years ago an intelligent designer designed and created the universe, including the Earth and a form of life that has evolved, by natural selection, into the many different forms of life that exist today.” See http://intelligent-design-hypothesis.com
The IDists will be annoyed, perhaps infuriated, to see “natural selection” included in an intelligent design hypothesis. But they cannot complain without stating an alternative IDH, and they will not state an alternative IDH because if they do it will become obvious that all they are doing is running a propaganda campaign for creationism.
The IDists are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. I do not feel sorry for them. I am proud that I have put an end to their silly propagandizing.
Scott1618 00:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
The part which says "and seek a fundamental redefinition of science, no longer limited to natural explanations, but accepting supernatural explanations as well" is misleading. Creationists claim that definition of science is fundamentally restricted to natural explanations, but is it really so? No. This is only held by people adhering to naturalism, which are only a small fraction of the scientific community (albeit the part that most loudly fights Intelligent Design, and a part that often claims to speak for the whole of science, while, in fact, they don't—professional science searches for new knowledge, it isn't a skeptics organization existing to debunk pseudoscience). Naturalism is only one philosophy of science, and all other philosophies do not make a distinction between natural and supernatural phenomena. For example, methodological approaches will say that it is not science's statements that are scientific, but it's the method of investigation that is. The whole article has been trickily written so that naturalists and creationists can agree to it. But did you ever take into account that this is not what neutrality is about and that there are more views on science than a naturalistic and a creationistic one? You should not describe things as uncontroversial just because naturalists and creationists both agree to it... -- rtc 03:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
If Rtc is unable to respond to the questions posed above, or produce some information that makes a tiny bit of sense, I will begin to wonder if we have not found something else under the bridge.-- Filll 05:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
rtc is quite clearly trolling, and has admitted that he has no substantiation for, or interest in substantiating, his original assertions. I would therefore suggest that he takes his irrelevant intellectual masturbations elsewhere. Hrafn42 06:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Science, I came to realize, doesn't rule out the possible existence of a supernatural world. It isn't logically committed to metaphysical naturalism. But it is committed to methodological naturalism, the view that, in our attempts to understand how the world works, we should look for naturalistic explanations rather than taking easy recourse to supernatural ones. The successes of science in bridging the gaps that used to be plugged by the gods creates a strong presumption in favour of the idea that gods not only aren't needed but don't exist. It doesn't prove, but it does probabilify to a high degree, the truth of metaphysical naturalism. And by the same token, it makes all supernatural beliefs highly improbable.
Any gratuitous assertion can be, by the laws of logic, gratuitously refuted. This is like trying to argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The scientific enterprise would grind to a halt if one allowed the introduction of miracles, supernatural causes, magic, gods, etc to explain the evidence in the natural world. I know of no serious, respected scientist who would deny this. In my years in science, I have not met any such person. The juducial world seems to agree with this position. I have not seen any surveys of attitudes, but I would find it difficult to believe that the attitudes about supernatural causes and influence in the universe are at variance with the attitudes about atheism, agnosticism, biblical literalism, etc. among scientists. Where is the evidence that would lead me to believe that scientists, although not able to use such reasoning in their professional work and publications, and not overwhelmingly believing in biblical literalism or its counterpart in Islam, Hinduism, or some other religion, actually reject naturalism? Only philosophers of science play such ludicrous games by nit picking scientific reasoning to death. Real scientists do not have time for such nonsense. If any of this can be demonstrated with examples instead of hypothetical assertions and philosopher's word play, then I am sure we would all be interested in seeing it. If not, then this is just talk page pollution.-- Filll 13:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent>So somehow science does not have methodological naturalism at its base? Wow I am astounded. This has escaped the notice of the US Supreme Court and the US National Academy of Sciences and the American Academy of Sciences and countless others. But the brilliant anonymous internet troll RTC discovered this, and no one else knows! Amazing. So let's try to convince the police and detectives and courts to drop methodological naturalism in crime investigations and convictions. The jails are full of people arrested for something a demon or a fairy or an ogre did. Their fingerprints and DNA magically appeared on the instruments of the crime. I wonder how far one could get with a defense based on the rejection of methodological naturalism? "Your honor, the magical imp stabbed my wife, and by a miracle the camera across the street shows me doing it, but I wasnt really there." How far do you think that would go? In fact rtc, you are under a magical spell and you do not own all the things you have- your car, your house, your possessions, your bank account. It all belongs to me. So hand it over or I will sue you. Seems more than fair, doesnt it? After all, you reject methodological naturalism!....Next time you get sick, or have a car accident, do not go to the hospital. Just pray. Let's fire all our doctors. Lets close all our medical schools. Let's not chlorinate our water or vaccinate ourselves. Let's not take antibiotics. Let's not use statics to design our bridges and buildings. It is all just methodological naturalism, after all. If methodological naturalism is good enough for police, or detectives, or doctors, or civil engineers, then surely it is good enough for scientists. -- Filll 23:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Note: My concerns in this section have nothing to do with the facts conveyed in this article; nothing to do with NPOV; nothing to do with sources or reliability or any of the usual things people argue about. I'm dealing solely with the prose style; nothing else.
There's a lot of really, thoroughly crappy prose in this article. There is excessive footnoting. There are long, wandering sentences. There's repetition. There's disorganization.
There are whole sections rendered practically unreadable -- and uneditable -- by excessive footnoting. Footnotes are applied not merely to paragraphs or even sentences, but to individual noun phrases. The introduction is three paragraphs long, and has thirty-five footnotes. In the third sentence, a single factual claim -- the association of intelligent-design advocates with the Discovery Institute -- receives seven footnotes alone.
The introduction includes details that are true and correct, but that are greatly excessive for an introduction, such as the names of three scientific associations that regard intelligent design as nonscientific, and a summary of the judge's opinion in Kitzmiller v. Dover. This kind of detail belongs in the article (and indeed is duplicated in the article) but does not belong in the introduction.
The article (excluding references) is 22 screens long on my browser. Eight screens, or more than a third of the article, form the section entitled "Overview". This is no overview; it is much of the meat of the article. It includes a history of intelligent design from Plato to Pandas. The history, however, jumps back and forth in time like something out of Doctor Who. Pandas is introduced at least twice, if not more. There is another section entitled "Controversy" -- never a good sign, since controversy is (as expected) all over the article. That section is mostly about the question of whether intelligent design is science.
The sentences ramble. Strunk and White would have conniptions. Many sentences have dangling modifiers, usually formed by splicing of a parenthetical and a conjunction: "The frogs are green, which is a pretty color, and very loud." What's loud -- the shade of green, or the frogs themselves?
Some examples:
So, what can be done about this?
Reorganize the sections. Ditch the "Overview" and "Controversy" sections. Juggle paragraphs to get sections something like the following:
Rewrite the introduction.
This can only be done after the article is reorganized, because the introduction needs to outline what the article says. The introduction should be short, punchy, and serve as an abstract of the article rather than a bullet list of details.
Clean up the prose style.
This can be done relatively independently of the larger-scale changes. Sentences like the ones I highlighted above need to be dragged out into the street and shot cleaned up. Each sentence should express a thought; each paragraph should express an idea. And all dangling modifiers should be chopped off.
Thoughts? -- FOo 08:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent> And of course the tricky bit is improving the prose, a worthy objective, without losing the careful and painfully achieved balance. This is a field rife with cunning misrepresentation, and loaded terms or descriptions have to be carefully balanced. .. dave souza, talk 21:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Interesting idea Fubar. But how about reorganizing the sections in a more fact based way? Something like the following:
And then, as you say, a new punchy introduction that reflects the content of the article. Pasado 22:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Given the number of references in the intro, would anyone object to merging some of the <ref> tags into bulletted lists? Silly rabbit 12:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I object, it's a bad idea for a number of reasons and has been discussed and rejected here recently in a now archived discussion. FeloniousMonk 15:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I tried to section off the "References" bit from the foregoing more general discussion. I couldn't make heads or tails of the above discussion, which seems to be talking about Fubar Obfusco's original massive edit suggestion. He does seem to be right about the preponderance of footnotes interfering with the readability. I recently put references into bulletted lists, which I felt dramatically improved the readability of the lead. This was then reverted on the false grounds that I had removed references. Any thoughts on which version is preferable? Silly rabbit 00:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence of the Wikipedia page about intelligent design describes intelligent design as a “claim.” That is an appropriate description of ID. I believe that the person who is publishing this claim should be identified. I therefore suggest that the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page about ID be revised to read as follows:
Intelligent design is the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is being published by Discovery Institute, a corporation organized under the laws of the State of Washington. Bruce Chapman is the founder and current president of Discovery Institute. [begin new paragraph]
It [intelligent design] is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God…[continue the current language]
I am proposing these revisions because I strongly believe that the “claim” should be attributed to the claimant. Mr. Chapman should not be allowed to hide behind a legal fiction (a corporation). He is the founder and current president of Discovery Institute and he must take personal responsibility for the claim that he is publishing. Scott1618 15:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
It is not necessary to identify the State of Washington or the Discovery Institute's corporate status. Those facts belong in the article on the Discovery Institute.
It is not clear that Mr. Chapman is the chief advocate of intelligent design, or the sole person "claiming" it. Other persons such as Michael Behe, William Dembski, and several former members of the Kansas Board of Education are also well-known proponents of the claim.
It is certainly atypical to connect an individual to an idea because that person publishes the idea. For instance, the Wall Street Journal frequently adopts neoconservative views in editorials on foreign policy, but it would be unnecessary -- and arguably abusive -- to feature L. Gordon Crovitz in the article on neoconservatism.
And in any event, this level of detail does not belong in the introduction! -- FOo 18:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
<unindent>I think it's reasonable to identify the DI as the origin of the quote, but the reference should do that already. I don't think we need to try and attribute it to a specific individual. Tevildo 23:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
In an effort to gain consensus, here are two possible revisions for the reference format:
Please note that the references contain precisely the same information, and occur in the same place in the text. Nothing has been removed from the article. The only difference is that adjacent references (without a "name=" field) have been aggregated into a bulletted list. In my opinion, this significantly improved the readability of the lead. Any preferences on one or the other? Silly rabbit 01:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Orangemarlin, have you read the introduction recently? Multiple mid-sentence footnotes are incredibly distracting to the reader. -- FOo 05:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Filll, what I'm hearing here is that because this article has featured article status, that it should be considered effectively frozen -- that it shouldn't be changed without a bureaucratic hell that nobody who has a job or any hobbies other than Wikipedia would be willing to go through. I don't consider that a useful or productive answer to the problems with this article.
I don't see why there's so much obstructionism here. There's basically nothing wrong with the facts of this article; they're just poorly organized, and many of the sentences are unclear and badly phrased. Most of the problems are relatively easy to fix, but some folks would apparently rather play bureaucrat and revert-warrior.
As it stands, I don't consider this article to be worthy of its feature bit. It easily meets most of the featured article criteria: it is comprehensive, factual, neutral, and stable (to a fault!) However, it fails to meet four of the criteria: 1a (well-written prose), 2a (concise intro), 2b (sensible headings), and 4 (appropriate length and focus).
These things can be fixed. But only if the obstructionism will go away. -- FOo 05:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Earlier, I posted regarding the dangling modifier in the following passage:
I challenged those who believe the prose in this article is clear, to tell me what noun phrase the prepositional phrase "primarily in the United States" is modifying. Does it modify "public sphere"? Or perhaps "social, academic, and political changes"? Or "religious agenda"? Or "neocreationist campaign"? Or "arose"?
Is the modifier saying that:
For that matter, there's another internal dangling modifier as well -- "employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere". By its meaning, this is meant to be attached to "campaign" or possibly "agenda". However, grammatically, it is attached to "political changes".
The prose in this article is frequently grammatically unclear. This isn't a matter of "reading level", as has been snidely suggested above. It's a matter of bad writing, and obstructionist editors who won't let it be fixed. -- FOo 16:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> For info: ""I have built an intellectual movement in the universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the materialistic basis of science. One very famous book that's come out of The Wedge is biochemist Michael Behe's book, Darwin's Black Box, which has had an enormous impact on the scientific world... the Darwinian theory isn't true. It's falsified by all of the evidence and the logic is terrible... where might you get the truth? When I preach from the Bible, as I often do at churches and on Sundays, I don't start with Genesis. I start with John 1:1. In the beginning was the word. In the beginning was intelligence, purpose, and wisdom. The Bible had that right. And the materialist scientists are deluding themselves". How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won – pretty sure there are other references to "that's when the wedge got together" etc. , if you want to start hunting there are some cited sources at the timeline of intelligent design. .... dave souza, talk 23:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The intelligent design movement is a direct outgrowth of the "progressive" creationism of the 1980s.[Forrest cite] A group calling themselves The Wedge took up the campaign initiated by the Foundation for Thought and Ethics to teach creation science in schools under the name of intelligent design, and as part of the Discovery Institute developed what they called the " Wedge Strategy" as a campaign primarily conducted in the United States.[cites] By employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere it promotes a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes.[cites]
I see that my change didn't survive - at least we now have two sentences rather than one. :) There's one substantive query I'd have over one part of this section:
I don't think "concepts" is the right word, especially as we're forbidden from capitalizing "Intelligent Design". The concept (singular) is the teleological argument, which is a product of Plato, Aquinas, Paley, et al. I would suggest "arguments", or "modern intelligent design concepts", or perhaps "concepts of the intelligent design movement". I'd also like to lose the 's in the last paragraph (converting "obfuscating" from a gerund to a participle); alternatively, we could have "the Discovery Institute's obfuscation of its agenda"; and the [sic] in the Forrest quote. Tevildo 00:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It's my understanding that the "wedge" was just a document that formalized the movement's strategy and helped with fund raising. What is the source that identifies the group of people that thought they were the wedge? Pasado 04:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Also note Wedge strategy cites Johnson's 1997 book Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds "we should affirm the reality of God by challenging the domination of materialism and naturalism in the world of the mind. With the assistance of many friends I have developed a strategy for doing this... We call our strategy the "wedge." pg. 91-92. An earlier section states Drafted in 1998 by Discovery Institute staff, the Wedge Document first appeared publicly after it was posted to the World Wide Web on February 5, 1999 by Tim Rhodes. The Wedge, Breaking the Modernist Monopoly on Science By Phillip E. Johnson which appeared in July/August 1999 has a section headed The Wedge Strategy which describes "the battle against the Darwinian mechanism [and] scientific materialists". The Wedge of Truth: Splitting the Foundations of Naturalism by Phillip E. Johnson was published in July 2000. Berkeley’s Radical, An Interview with Phillip E. Johnson in November 2000, gives answers to How did others become involved in the "wedge" strategy?. In October 2002 the Discovery Institute's William Dembski said "the wedge metaphor has outlived its usefulness", and in February 2006 the Discovery Institute published The "Wedge Document: So What? which states that the original document was only a fundraising proposal, and criticizes its opponents for what it believes are baseless accusations. .. dave souza, talk 08:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won talks about the wedge as a movement. Breaking the Modernist Monopoly on Science talks about "key Wedge figures" that were at a seminar. It's too much of a stretch to say this supports stating "A group calling themselves The Wedge...". There's no verification for that usage so we can't use it. So here's the paragraph with that part removed:
The intelligent design movement is a direct outgrowth of the "progressive" creationism of the 1980s.[Forrest cite] This movement was initiated by the Foundation for Thought and Ethics to teach creation science in schools under the name of intelligent design, and as part of the Discovery Institute developed what they called the " Wedge Strategy" as a campaign primarily conducted in the United States.[cites] By employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere it promotes a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes.[cites]
Pasado 04:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Moved off topic ranting to rts' talk page ornis 12:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, I feel empirical science is more accurate. I checked with a few dictionaries as well. From American Heritage dictionary, empiricism is: 1. The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge. 2a. Employment of empirical methods, as in science. 2b. An empirical conclusion. 3. The practice of medicine that disregards scientific theory and relies solely on practical experience.
Of the 4 definitions, only 2a. is useful in this context. From the Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, empiricism is:
Either of two closely related philosophical doctrines, one pertaining to concepts and the other to knowledge. The first doctrine is that most, if not all, concepts are ultimately derived from experience; the second is that most, if not all, knowledge derives from experience, in the sense that appeals to experience are necessarily involved in its justification. Neither doctrine implies the other. Several empiricists have allowed that some knowledge is a priori, or independent of experience, but have denied that any concepts are. On the other hand, few if any empiricists have denied the existence of a priori knowledge while maintaining the existence of a priori concepts. John Locke, George Berkeley, and David Hume are classical representatives of empiricism. See also Francis Bacon. Again, this is not as accurate as empirical science, frankly.
From the Columbia Encyclopedia, empiricism is: empiricism (ĕmpĭr'ĭsĭzəm) [Gr.,=experience], philosophical doctrine that all knowledge is derived from experience. For most empiricists, experience includes inner experience—reflection upon the mind and its operations—as well as sense perception. This position is opposed to rationalism in that it denies the existence of innate ideas. According to the empiricist, all ideas are derived from experience; therefore, knowledge of the physical world can be nothing more than a generalization from particular instances and can never reach more than a high degree of probability. Most empiricists recognize the existence of at least some a priori truths, e.g., those of mathematics and logic. John Stuart Mill was the first to treat even these as generalizations from experience. Empiricism has been the dominant but not the only tradition in British philosophy. Among its other leading advocates were John Locke, George Berkeley, and David Hume. See also logical positivism. Again, this is not as accurate as empirical science. So all things considered, empiricism is either too broad, or not quite the same meaning as the one we would like. So just leave this one alone please.-- Filll 19:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh please. This is an extremely old debate that ran from Descartes through the British empiricists. This phase, starting with John Locke and enduring quite a mentalistic sideshow by Bishop Berkeley, reached its culmination in the extremely skeptical conclusions of David Hume, which included such mind-twisters as the problem of induction, highly influential among the intelligentsia of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Immanuel Kant, in response to Hume, defined in his Critique of Pure Reason (also translated as "Critique of Speculative Reason") the concept of phenomenon which would ultimately become a basic requirement of scientific method, specifically that science limits itself to what is empirically observable (observable by one or more of the five physical senses, aided perhaps by instrumentation, but observable nonetheless). Other criteria for scientific method would of course follow, leading up to today. But the debate that used the term "empiricism" to describe scientific method is increasingly outmoded, having given way to the term "empirical" as shorthand for limiting investigation to what is observable.
What Barbara Forrest does in the article noted by Rtc ( [19]) is merely review the dabate in philosophy and bring it into focus in the context of the modern term "methodological naturalism", because the intelligent design proponents have resurrected the question of phenomena vis-a-vis noumena and natural vis-a-vis supernatural. She says: "In response to the charge that methodological naturalism in science logically requires the a priori adoption of a naturalistic metaphysics, I examine the question whether methodological naturalism entails philosophical (ontological or metaphysical) naturalism." In the course of this examination, she uses the term "empiricism" in three instances as she revisits the now centuries-old philosophical debate.
By contrast, when we speak of scientific method today, the word "empirical" is standard, not "empiricist" or "empiricism". This is overwhelmingly the case, and I shouldn't even need to post a bunch of sources as indicators of this common usage by any number of reliable sources today. ... Kenosis 20:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Well I have read Einstein's scientific work, and I did not see any discussion of critical rationalism or methodological naturalism or empiricism or any other philosophical terms. He might have done some work in that area, but it is certainly nothing that is well known in the science community and certainly not the reaason he is celebrated, or his major contributions to human knowledge. However, if you have references to prove me wrong, show me. The value of Einstein's work has been because of its empirical support. Otherwise, it would be useless. -- Filll 19:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh Jeez, not this again... Give it a rest. ID's proponents have staked their claims about ID in science, not philosophy, so this article is going to reflect that. Odd nature 18:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Because the current discussion has shown itself to be a bit of a conceptual minefield, I'll try to say the following carefully.
This discussion started with Rtc asserting, in essence, that the article should use the term "empiricism" instead of "empirical science" ("empirical science" presently is wikilinked to empiricism in the second sentence of the third paragraph of the section on Controversy, with the entire paragraph quoted immediately below). The text at issue presently is the first sentence and the first footnote that follows, with the footnote actually being in the second sentence of the paragraph:
Natural science uses the scientific method to create a posteriori knowledge based on observation alone (sometimes called empirical science). Intelligent design proponents seek to change this definition [1] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science [2] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism", [3] and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity. Intelligent design proponents argue that naturalistic explanations fail to explain certain phenomena and that supernatural explanations provide a very simple and intuitive explanation for the origins of life and the universe. [4] Proponents say that evidence exists in the forms of irreducible complexity and specified complexity that cannot be explained by natural processes. [5] [footnote numbers are different above than they are in the article]
There appear to be several issues overlapping and getting a bit conflated in the discussion with User:Rtc, including but not necessarily limited to the following:
1. Rtc proposes to use the term "empiricism" in the first sentence, which presently reads:
Personally I don't see the need to use the term "empiricism" in the text here, because "empirical science" presently links to the article on empiricism. And I also think the link to the article on empiricism is unnecessary here, because empirical is far more consistent with the modern discussion about what "science" focuses upon today.Natural science uses the scientific method to create a posteriori knowledge based on observation alone (sometimes called empirical science).
2.The footnote to Barbara Forrest's article presently occurs in the second sentence of the relevant paragraph, which reads
Intelligent design proponents seek to change this definition[116] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science[117] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism",[118] and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity.
For the present, I just changed the wikilink to link to "empirical" rather than "empiricism" here. ... Kenosis 04:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
<unindent>While I'm reluctant to support Rtc in general, I can't help but agree with him on this specific point. "A posteriori knowledge based on observation alone" _is_ empiricism, not empirical science. The problem arises from the statement "Natural science ... [creates] a posteriori knowledge based on observation alone." This sentence - and only this sentence, not the rest of the article - is an explicit claim that natural scicence is empiricist (not empirical). I would suggest that we re-write the sentence so that it doesn't make this claim; on the other hand, if it's a direct quote or paraphrase from Forrest, we should make it clear that it's her claim, and not ours. Tevildo 12:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Natural science uses the scientific method to create a posteriori knowledge based on observation and repeated testing of hypotheses and theories (sometimes called empirical science). Intelligent design proponents seek to change this fundamental basis of science[116] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science[117] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism",[118] and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity.
<unindent>Moving for the moment to another related issue with this paragraph, I wonder about the sentence that reads:
Intelligent design proponents seek to change this definition[116] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science[117] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism",[118] and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity.
The last clause appears to me that it might be incorrect. It isn't just critics that have termed it methodological supernaturalism, but proponents too. See, e.g., Mark I. Vuletic (1997) "Methodological Naturalism and the Supernatural" (presented at "Naturalism, Theism and the Scientific Enterprise: An Interdisciplinary Conference at the University of Texas--Austin", Feb. 20-23, 1997 http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/philosophy/faculty/koons/ntse/papers/Vuletic.html. And it also appears to me that not many sources have used the term at all, whether critic or proponent. Perhaps this should be a separate sentence? Perhaps, even if kept in the same sentence, it might say something like "... and what some have called it methodological supernaturalism." and perhaps put the note about what methodogical supernaturalism means in a separate sentence within parentheses? ... Kenosis 11:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Intelligent design proponents seek to change this fundamental basis of science [6] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science [7] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism", [8] Some have called this approach "methodological supernaturalism", which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity. [9][footnote #s different herein]
In a related development, I made an edit to the first sentence of the section on Intelligent design#Controversy directly related to the discussion above. Specifically, I changed the first sentence of the paragraph at issue in this talk-section to the following, for now at least:
Empirical science uses the scientific method to create a posteriori knowledge based on observation and repeated testing of hypotheses and theories.
The following is an attempt to reduce the size and verbosity of the introduction while retaining all the essential facts. It reduces the introduction from 371 to 309 words (not including reference text or comments). No references have been removed or altered.
Here's what I did:
Please provide concrete and specific responses to this proposed edit. For instance, if you think I've understated a particular point, provide the precise phrasing you would like to see. -- FOo 03:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Intelligent design is the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." [5] [10] [11] It is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer. [12] [13] [14] Its primary proponents, members of the Discovery Institute, [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] believe the designer to be the Abrahamic God. [22]
Intelligent design's advocates claim that it is a scientific theory, [23] while seeking to redefine science to accept supernatural as well as natural explanations. [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] The consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science. [29] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has argued that intelligent design fails to be science, because it makes no testable predictions or hypotheses. [30] Other scientific associations have concurred, or termed it pseudoscience or junk science. [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37]
The term "intelligent design" originated in response to a 1987 United States Supreme Court ruling, Edwards v. Aguillard, which forbade the teaching of " creation science" in public schools on constitutional grounds of separation of church and state. [38] The first significant published use of "intelligent design" was in a 1989 textbook intended for high-school biology classes titled Of Pandas and People. [39] The Discovery Institute was founded the following year. [40] [41] [42] This " intelligent design movement" became more visible in the 1990s and early 2000s, as a small number of U.S. school districts adopted intelligent design into their science curricula. In 2005, a group of parents of students in Dover, Pennsylvania brought a lawsuit challenging the practice. In this case, Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, the court ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and thus that the school district's promotion of it violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. [43]
A defining characteristic of ID is that it is a form of creationism. This needs to be stated in the introductory paragraph.
Pasado
05:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
My offhand impression is that it's best, in light of the many concerns involved in a controversial article such as this, to keep following the same plan. But, of course, WP:consensus is never permanent, but only requires a sufficient warrant to override a prior consensus and a reasonable justification for following a differnt path. Speaking for myself, I look forward to reading such justification(s). ... Kenosis 05:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Pasado's suggestion is to mention that ID is a form of creationism. This is not in the current introduction, except in the form of the Kitzmiller court's remarks on the "creationist antecedents" of ID. I don't object to it being added in the future, but I don't think it needs to go in this revision.
Hrafn42's suggestion is to shorten the introduction further by removing more details about Kitzmiller v. Dover, but to include more details about the case in a section in the article. I agree with the shortened phrasing. I'd like to see a Kitzmiller v. Dover suggestion.
I can't tell what Kenosis is suggesting. Kenosis, could you please clarify the specific concrete changes you're suggesting? -- FOo 06:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Kenosis states "The longstanding form of the introduction has been: Paragraph 1 - What ID is and who are its proponents". Since a defining characteristic of ID is that it's a form of creationism, and we have further verification of this with the May 2007 Forrest cite, why is this not in paragraph 1? Pasado 07:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I also participated in the very heated discussions about the current lead. It was forged by very very difficult compromises and negotiating. Big changes will end up with more big big long drawn out fights. The article might have drawbacks, but it is at FA status. Sure it can be improved, but I would aim for small changes, not big changes. There are many other places where we need editor input besides this article which has already reached FA status. Lets improve some of its sister articles and bring them up to a higher standard as well, or fill in some of our missing articles in this topic area, rather than waste HUGE amounts of time trying to improve an article that has already reached FA status.-- Filll 08:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
As indicated in the timeline of intelligent design, the sequence in the following couple of sentences seems misleading: "The first significant published use of "intelligent design" was in a 1989 textbook intended for high-school biology classes titled Of Pandas and People. The Discovery Institute was founded the following year. This "intelligent design movement" became more visible in the 1990s and early 2000s, as a small number of U.S. school districts adopted intelligent design into their science curricula." The following suggestion aims to clarify this, and cover the point that the "wedge" proponents initially seem to have had little connection with the FTE writers / editors who introduced ID campaigning, but then the "wedge" began to present themselves as "intelligent design scholars" and, together with the FTE originals, were funded by the DI through the CSC from 1996 –
Use of the term "intelligent design" originated in response to a 1987 United States Supreme Court ruling, Edwards v. Aguillard, which forbade the teaching of " creation science" in public schools on constitutional grounds of separation of church and state. To avoid this restriction the 1989 high-school biology textbook Of Pandas and People used the term to replace "creation science", initiating campaigning to promote the teaching of intelligent design. The wedge strategy supported by the Discovery Institute developed the " intelligent design movement" pressing for political and educational changes, and a small number of U.S. school districts adopted intelligent design into their science curricula. In 2005, a group of parents of students in Dover, Pennsylvania brought a lawsuit challenging the practice. In this case, Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, the court ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and thus that the school district's promotion of it violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
It's a little longer, but in my opinion much clearer. . .. dave souza, talk 10:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
A few specific comments on Fubar's proposal:
Given the nature of the contributions of RTC to this talk page over a substantial period, their repeated nonsense assertions and combative nature, I propose that any contribution of RTC that resembles trolling or tendentious repetition of previously dismissed arguments and POV nit-picking be removed to his talk page.-- Filll 14:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
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I spotted this while getting the above Behe quote:
"Its principal argument is that certain features of the universe are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than undirected causes such as Darwin's theory of natural selection." - Pamphlet used by the Dover Area School District, agreed as accurate by Behe.
This might be worth adding, but it's a bit of an odd source, so I didn't want to just go ahead and do so. As an aside, I like "undirected causes" better than "undirected processes", but assembling our favourite parts of all the variants would become more awkward than just paraphrasing in the end, and "Darwin's theory of" is just awful. Adam Cuerden talk 18:46, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:A does not require, and never required, a direct citation for every statement in an article. Summaries and other descriptions of one or more aspects of a topic quite frequently involve a consensus process about how something will be expressed in "original language", which is quite different from "original research". The additional footnotes, as FeloniousMonk has previously observed and with which I agree at this stage of discussion, help to make clear, to persons whose wont is to make hasty conclusions or assert pre-conceived conclusions about some aspect of the content, that the article reflects a great deal of attention to sourcing. Occasionally, there is legiimate question about whether a particular footnote properly reflects the article-statement(s) to which it is appended, or vice-versa. In my personal opinion that's more than fair enough (assuming it's a rational question), and I believe there may still be some more work to be done on those 170-or-so footnotes. ... Kenosis 13:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I was referring above to the specific content of citations, for instance several of the footnotes in the "Defining intelligent design as science" section and perhaps a few others too. Please do not combine citations. Not only is it important to make clear that there are separate sources involved in supporting many of the statements in the article, a fair number of the citations in this article are derived from the same sources (especially but not limited to the Kitzmiller v. Dover decision), but they actually refer specifically to different places in those sources. Please keep'm separate. If one or more turns out to be erroneous or misplaced, it should be able to be dealt with by referring to a specific number (e.g. "currently footnote x" or "presently footnote y"). No objection to standardizing the format (though I personally dislike those forms that've been used by many on WP of late). The present method of presentation appears to be that quotations are put first in the footnote with the source placed after the quote, a method I'm willing to support-- any thoughts about this? ... Kenosis 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
In the first paragraph the adjective "modern" implies some positive judgment on this form of the argument, while "recent" would be a more neutral one.-- BMF81 23:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The article currently states that the first written record of the idea of a designer came from Greek philosophers, but nearly every culture in the world has some type of creation story. I really only know about western traditions, but the old testament surely pre-dates the greek. Is it because these creation stories are considered religious writing and the Greeks are considered philosophical writings the reason the Greek are used here?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.70.121 ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 29 May 2007
the 'concept' of Intelligent design. The first sentence should state that it is a marketing ploy. Xavier cougat 17:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Jiohdi 17:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
ID is not internally consistent. It begins with the assertion that complex things can only exist if designed. So there must be a designer. But the designer was not designed by a designer. So, if the designer exists the original assertion is untrue. This takes us back into babel fish territory. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.193.200.51 ( talk • contribs) 21:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC).
Heads up on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cradle of Humanity - Cradle of humanity is some sort of comparison of Evolutionary and Creationist views of the Out of Africa theory... Adam Cuerden talk 08:34, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I think you guys are doing an excellent job keeping such a high quality on this controversial topic, but about the footnotes... Sadly, on many articles, these footnotes aren't so much helpful to rational readers, but are perhaps used to prove the point to POV-pushers. This is a pity. Here is the suggestion. Why not create a separate evidence page as a sub-page of this talk page, and keep all the refs there, normal readers would need one or two refs for many of these claims. Additionally, I'm sure there is some policy that forbids this, but what would be the harm in replacing a bunch of footnotes with a single footnote saying "Evidence for this claim is available here" or something like that? Many apologies if this has already been discussed, but I really felt like I wanted to say this. I'm not going to push this issue any further so thanks for considering it, Merzul 12:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I added this to the overview section: "The Harris poll also showed that a majority of U.S. adults (54%) do not think human beings developed from earlier species." I thought to bring up a poll and only show one narrow aspect of it was slightly bias, what does everyone else think? ( Dbcraft 18:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
Thus, although I see the relevance of the Zogby poll of the Los Alamos community, I do not see the relevance of the Harris Poll or any other. As for other polls of popular belief in the US, here are a couple more examples:
Propose the following link to an extensive list of references on the origins and use of the term "Intelligent Design":
ResearchID maintains the Intelligent Design timetable summarizing origins and use of the term "Intelligent Design". DLH 19:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Kenosis Please show the policy denying reference to any wiki. Wikipedia itself provides for numerous internal links which are by definition to a wiki. Wikipedia provides anti-ID links. If you deny any references to wikis, then you must also delete
That's a nice timeline, relatively very thorough even if it has some noticeable gaps.
(1) It is not conventional practice in WP to refer folks in the fashion proposed above, even internally within WP to such subpages, unless its an article about the timeline.
(2) In the case of intelligent design, we have two timelines involved, one of which is the history of the teleological argument, and the other of which is the history of the use of the words "intelligent design". The words "intelligent design" didn't become a term intended to describe a field of study until Of Pandas and People, when they were used to replace the word "creation-" in response to the decision in Edwards v. Aguilard.
I notice, though, that Walter R. Thurston uses the words "intelligent design" and "intelligently designed" in a paper titled "Realism and Reverence" presented in 1985 at a conference on "Christian Faith and Science in Society", which was later published in June 1987, the same month of the Edwards v. Aguilard decision, in PSCF, "Perspectives on Science & Christian Faith". He uses the words in exactly the same way as James E. Horigan does in the 1979 philosophy book Chance or Design?. I think this usage should be mentioned in the WP article section on "Origins of the term". ... Kenosis 20:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Methinks Adam's idea would be as a separate article: it could be stripped down to a more minimal timeline, or made into a brief historical outline. At present it's become more of a resource, with a lot of quotes etc. which could be paraphrased. On a point Kenosis makes, this is a third timeline, perhaps more about the ID movement though of course it and ID are inextricably connected. It currently seems to me that ID appeared fully formed between 1987 and 1989 with Pandas defining what it is and starting political lobbying, while in parallel Johnson's wedge ideas developed and didn't adopt the term until 1991 at the earliest. It would be helpful to know if Darwin on Trial uses the term "intelligent design" – all I've got at present is an unreliable source indicating a few mentions in the 1993 edition, but none of the reviews or Johnson's writings that I've seen mention ID. Certainly Behe contributed to Pandas rev. 2 in 1993, and by May 1995 Johnson is promoting the term. The DI takeover really seems to come with the CRSC in 1996. Perhaps this something y'all know about, but it's still a bit puzzling to me. Anyway, the ResearchID timeline is a useful guide to resources, though not a RS itself, but is largely focussed on giving a respectable pedigree to ID rather than finding out what's going on. In my opinion. ... dave souza, talk 21:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
This looks like a bit of controversy.-- Filll 16:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Could Morphh & Pasado please stop edit-warring and discuss there differences here! Specifically, could Morphh please explain why they think calling ID creationism is POV in spite of noted historian of creationism Ronald Numbers including a whole chapter on ID in his latest edition of The Creationists and in spite of Judge Jones declaring "...and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents." Would he also consider these to be "POV" sources? Hrafn42 14:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> Ooh, fun! Lots to hand at s:Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District/2:Context, Page 31 of 139 has "A “hypothetical reasonable observer,” adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is also presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism.,, The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism. What is likely the strongest evidence supporting the finding of ID’s creationist nature is the history and historical pedigree of the book to which students in Dover’s ninth grade biology class are referred, Pandas.", Page 35 of 139 has " there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism." .. best read in context, .. dave souza, talk 20:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Morphh:
Hrafn42 15:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Would it be less controversial to describe ID as Neo-creationism:
Neo-creationism is a movement whose goal is to restate creationism in terms more likely to be well received by the public, policy makers, educators, and the scientific community. It aims to re-frame the debate over the origins of life in non-religious terms and without appeals to scripture. This comes in response to the 1987 ruling by the United States Supreme Court in Edwards v. Aguillard that creationism is an inherently religious concept and that advocating it as correct or accurate in public school curricula violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
This description seems to fit ID quite well (unsurprising, as ID is to date the only widely-promoted form on Neo-creationism). Hrafn42 18:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
*It is a form of creationism,[4][5]a modification of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God which avoids specifying the identity of the designer or using the word "creation" .[6][7][8] .
Is this the appropriate language? Thoughts? As well, we still need to discuss citations of course. ... Kenosis 22:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
<unindent>I don't think that the Dave/Morphh proposal works very well, purely as a matter of language. As it stands, it seems (to me, at least) to say that creationism is "a modification of the ... teleological argument", which isn't the case. There are two seperate propositions that this sentence asserts: (a) ID is a form of creationism, (b) ID is a version of the teleological argument; I don't see how these can be combined in one sentence, and I don't think that "It is a form of creationism and a modification of the teleological argument" would be acceptable. As I see it, this comes back to our perennial problem with the definition of ID. The statement "ID is a version of the teleological argument" depends on our defining ID as a claim/assertion/proposition, or whatever word we choose to be least contentious. If, however, we're moving towards a definition of ID as a form of creationism, then this isn't appropriate. Creationism isn't an argument (or a claim, or an assertion) - it's an ideology, or a viewpoint, or a Weltanschauung, or something of the sort. Creationists (and ID proponents) may (and do) _use_ the teleological argument, but, if ID is defined as creationism, it becomes impossible to describe it _as_ the teleological argument. If we're going to define ID as creationism (which, naturally, I support), then we should say this up-front, and make it clear that "teleological argument" is a characterization of the DI statment. I would support something along the lines of:
Intelligent design is a form of creationism, based on the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is a modern form of the teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer.
But this goes even further than Pasado's proposed version, and is unlikely to be acceptable to everyone... Tevildo 22:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Morphh wishes to return to the topic. To summarise:
So Morphh, if this omnipotent, ineffable, omnipresent and undetectable designer isn't the Abrahamic God, then who is (s)he? Hrafn42 14:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm sick of all this. We have three reputable sources (the Kitzmiller descision, Ronald Numbers and Barbara Forrest) that ID is Creationism. We have been presented with no reputable sources to the contrary, just a bunch of shoddy OR and hearsay. Therefore I would suggest that, unless and until evidence from reputable sources is presented that ID is not in fact Creationism, that ID should be prominantly described as Creationism in the article. Hrafn42 15:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Let's take a look at Morphh's 'reliable sources':
None of the these individuals have a reputation for honesty or good scholarship. All of them have a reputation for making unfounded claims outside their fields of expertise. None of the sources cited are scholarly. Additionally, all are members of the DI, so have a vested interest in denying that ID is Creationism.
Additionally, I would like to introduce the following quote from Phillip Johnson [6] as an 'admission against interest' (i.e. the opposite of a self-serving statement, and thus a statement with considerable evidential value):
My colleagues and I speak of "theistic realism" -- or sometimes, "mere creation" --as the defining concept of our movement. This means that we affirm that God is objectively real as Creator, and that the reality of God is tangibly recorded in evidence accessible to science, particularly in biology. We avoid the tangled arguments about how or whether to reconcile the Biblical account with the present state of scientific knowledge, because we think these issues can be much more constructively engaged when we have a scientific picture that is not distorted by naturalistic prejudice. If life is not simply matter evolving by natural selection, but is something that had to be designed by a creator who is real, then the nature of that creator, and the possibility of revelation, will become a matter of widespread interest among thoughtful people who are currently being taught that evolutionary science has show God to be a product of the human imagination.
Hrafn42 17:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Let me respond to West's baseless assertions [7]:
Hrafn42 17:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Additionally, one of Morphh's own sources, William Dembski, is the author of a book entitled Mere Creation; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design-- a very odd title if "Intelligent design is not and never will be a doctrine of creation." Hrafn42 17:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Further, if ID is not Creationism, then why did numerous ID proponents (including two of Morphh's sources, William Demsbki and Stephen C Meyer) present a conference entitled Mere Creation: Scholars United Under Intelligent Design? Hrafn42 18:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Earlier I told Morphh:
I would like to point out that none of the sources Morphh cited satisfy any of these three points. Hrafn42
Here are citations from Kitzmiller v. Dover that refer to ID as a form of creationism, or explain in some relevant way how it is a form of creationism, with page numbers. ... Kenosis 22:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
p18 An Objective Observer Would Know that ID and Teaching About “Gaps” and “Problems” in Evolutionary Theory are Creationist, Religious Strategies that Evolved from Earlier Forms of Creationism
p31-32 A “hypothetical reasonable observer,” adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is also presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism. Child Evangelism, 386 F.3d at 531 (citations omitted); Allegheny, 492 U.S. at 624-25. The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism. What is likely the strongest evidence supporting the finding of ID’s creationist nature is the history and historical pedigree of the book to which students in Dover’s ninth grade biology class are referred, Pandas. Pandas is published by an organization called FTE, as noted, whose articles of incorporation and filings with the Internal Revenue Service describe it as a religious, Christian organization. (P-461; P-28; P-566; P-633; p32 Buell Dep. 1:13, July 8, 2005). Pandas was written by Dean Kenyon and Percival Davis, both acknowledged creationists, and Nancy Pearcey, a Young Earth Creationist, contributed to the work. (10:102-08 (Forrest)).
p32 As Plaintiffs meticulously and effectively presented to the Court, Pandas went through many drafts, several of which were completed prior to and some after the Supreme Court’s decision in Edwards, which held that the Constitution forbids teaching creationism as science. By comparing the pre and post Edwards drafts of Pandas, three astonishing points emerge: (1) the definition for creation science in early drafts is identical to the definition of ID; (2) cognates of the word creation (creationism and creationist), which appeared approximately 150 times were deliberately and systematically replaced with the phrase ID; and (3) the changes occurred shortly after the Supreme Court held that creation science is religious and cannot be taught in public school science classes in Edwards. This word substitution is telling, significant, and reveals that a purposeful change of words was effected without any corresponding change in content, which directly refutes FTE’s argument that by merely disregarding the words “creation” and “creationism,” FTE expressly rejected creationism in Pandas. In early pre- Edwards drafts of Pandas, the term “creation” was defined as “various forms of life that began abruptly through an intelligent agency with their distinctive features
p33 intact – fish with fins and scales, birds with feathers, beaks, and wings, etc,” the very same way in which ID is defined in the subsequent published versions. (P- 560 at 210; P-1 at 2-13; P-562 at 2-14, P-652 at 2-15; P-6 at 99-100; P-11 at 99- 100; P-856.2.). This definition was described by many witnesses for both parties, notably including defense experts Minnich and Fuller, as “special creation” of kinds of animals, an inherently religious and creationist concept. (28:85-86 (Fuller); Minnich Dep. at 34, May 26, 2005; Trial Tr. vol. 1, Miller Test., 141-42, Sept. 26, 2005; 9:10 (Haught); Trial Tr. vol. 33, Bonsell Test., 54-56, Oct. 31, 2005). Professor Behe’s assertion that this passage was merely a description of appearances in the fossil record is illogical and defies the weight of the evidence that the passage is a conclusion about how life began based upon an interpretation of the fossil record, which is reinforced by the content of drafts of Pandas. The weight of the evidence clearly demonstrates, as noted, that the systemic change from “creation” to “intelligent design” occurred sometime in 1987, after the Supreme Court’s important Edwards decision. This compelling evidence strongly supports Plaintiffs’ assertion that ID is creationism re-labeled. Importantly, the objective observer, whether adult or child, would conclude from the fact that Pandas posits a master intellect that the intelligent designer is God. Further evidence in support of the conclusion that a reasonable observer,
p34 adult or child, who is “aware of the history and context of the community and forum” is presumed to know that ID is a form of creationism concerns the fact that ID uses the same, or exceedingly similar arguments as were posited in support of creationism. One significant difference is that the words “God,” “creationism,” and “Genesis” have been systematically purged from ID explanations, and replaced by an unnamed “designer.” Dr. Forrest testified and sponsored exhibits showing six arguments common to creationists. (10:140-48 (Forrest); P-856.5-856.10). Demonstrative charts introduced through Dr. Forrest show parallel arguments relating to the rejection of naturalism, evolution’s threat to culture and society, “abrupt appearance” implying divine creation, the exploitation of the same alleged gaps in the fossil record, the alleged inability of science to explain complex biological information like DNA, as well as the theme that proponents of each version of creationism merely aim to teach a scientific alternative to evolution to show its “strengths and weaknesses,” and to alert students to a supposed “controversy” in the scientific community. (10:140-48 (Forrest)). In addition, creationists made the same argument that the complexity of the bacterial flagellum supported creationism as Professors Behe and Minnich now make for ID. (P-853; P-845; 37:155-56 (Minnich)). The IDM openly welcomes adherents to creationism into its “Big Tent,” urging them to postpone biblical disputes like the age of the
p35 earth. (11:3-15 (Forrest); P-429). Moreover and as previously stated, there is hardly better evidence of ID’s relationship with creationism than an explicit statement by defense expert Fuller that ID is a form of creationism. (Fuller Dep. at 67, June 21, 2005) (indicated that ID is a modern view of creationism). Although contrary to Fuller, defense experts Professors Behe and Minnich testified that ID is not creationism, their testimony was primarily by way of bare assertion and it failed to directly rebut the creationist history of Pandas or other evidence presented by Plaintiffs showing the commonality between creationism and ID. The sole argument Defendants made to distinguish creationism from ID was their assertion that the term “creationism” applies only to arguments based on the Book of Genesis, a young earth, and a catastrophic Noaich flood; however, substantial evidence established that this is only one form of creationism, including the chart that was distributed to the Board Curriculum Committee, as will be described below. (P-149 at 2; 10:129-32 (Forrest); P-555 at 22-24). Having thus provided the social and historical context in which the ID Policy arose of which a reasonable observer, either adult or child would be aware, we will now focus on what the objective student alone would know. We will accordingly determine whether an objective student would view the disclaimer read to the ninth grade biology class as an official endorsement of religion.
p42
In other words, the disclaimer relies upon the very same
“contrived dualism” that the court in McLean recognized to be a creationist tactic
that has “no scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose.” McLean,
529 F. Supp. at 1266.6
6 The McLean court explained that:
The approach to teaching ‘creation science’ and ‘evolution science’ . . . is identical to the
two-model approach espoused by the Institute for Creation Research and is taken almost
verbatim from ICR writings. It is an extension of Fundamentalists’ view that one must
either accept the literal interpretation of Genesis or else believe in the godless system of
evolution.
The two model approach of creationists is simply a contrived dualism which has no
scientific factual basis or legitimate educational purpose. It assumes only two
explanations for the origins of life and existence of man, plants and animals: it was either
the work of a creator or it was not. Application of these two models, according to
creationists, and the defendants, dictates that all scientific evidence which fails to support
the theory of evolution is necessarily scientific evidence in support of creationism and is,
therefore, creation science ‘evidence[.]’
529 F. Supp. at 1266 (footnote omitted)(emphasis added).
p43 The overwhelming evidence at trial established that ID is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory.
p44 Whether a student accepts the Board’s invitation to explore Pandas, and reads a creationist text, or follows the Board’s other suggestion and discusses “Origins of Life” with family members, that objective student can reasonably infer that the District’s favored view is a religious one, and that the District is accordingly sponsoring a form of religion.
p49 In summary, the disclaimer singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere.
p56 An objective adult member of the Dover community would also be presumed to know that ID and teaching about supposed gaps and problems in evolutionary theory are creationist religious strategies that evolved from earlier forms of creationism, as we previously detailed.
p69-70 [Under the heading "Whether ID is science", the decision quotes the NAS as follows:] Creationism, intelligent design, and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science. These claims subordinate observed data to statements based on authority, revelation, or
70 religious belief. Documentation offered in support of these claims is typically limited to the special publications of their advocates. These publications do not offer hypotheses subject to change in light of new data, new interpretations, or demonstration of error. This contrasts with science, where any hypothesis or theory always remains subject to the possibility of rejection or modification in the light of new knowledge.
p71 ID is at bottom premised upon a false dichotomy, namely, that to the extent evolutionary theory is discredited, ID is confirmed. (5:41 (Pennock)). This argument is not brought to this Court anew, and in fact, the same argument, termed “contrived dualism” in McLean, was employed by creationists in the 1980's to support “creation science.” The court in McLean noted the “fallacious pedagogy of the two model approach” and that “[i]n efforts to establish ‘evidence’ in support of creation science, the defendants relied upon the same false premise as the two model approach . . . all evidence which criticized evolutionary theory was proof in support of creation science.” McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1267, 1269. We do not find this false dichotomy any more availing to justify ID today than it was to justify creation science two decades ago.
p91 The purpose inquiry involves consideration of the ID Policy’s language, “enlightened by its context and contemporaneous legislative history[,]” including, in this case, the broader context of historical and ongoing religiously driven attempts to advance creationism while denigrating evolution. (citing to Selman, 390 F. Supp. Supp. 2d at 1300; and Edwards v. Aguilard)
p107 Accordingly, as accurately submitted by Plaintiffs, we find that the Board Curriculum Committee knew as early as June 2004 that ID was widely considered by numerous observers to be a form of creationism.
p112 There is no evidence that the Board heeded even one iota of the Solicitor’s detailed and prudent warning. We also find the email to be persuasive, additional evidence that the Board knew that ID is considered a form of creationism.
p114 The testimony at trial stunningly revealed that Buckingham and Bonsell tried to hide the source of the donations because it showed, at the very least, the extraordinary measures taken to ensure that students received a creationist alternative to Darwin’s theory of evolution.
p120 Finally, Spahr warned the full Board that ID amounted to creationism and could not be taught legally. (24:102 (Nilsen); 35:14-15 (Baksa)).
p131 As exhaustively detailed herein, the thought leaders on the Board made it their considered purpose to inject some form of creationism into the science classrooms, and by the dint of their personalities and persistence they were able to pull the majority of the Board along in their collective wake.
p136 ... we have addressed the seminal question of whether ID is science. We have concluded that it is not, and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents.
"In the same book, he also points out that natural selection is in many ways the opposite of chance. Dembski's specified complexity may eliminate chance, perhaps, but it says nothing about natural selection." Is this really POV? What do you think?-- Filll 15:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
From, http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page12021.asp or The register spin, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/25/id_not_science/
"The Government is clear that creationism and intelligent design are not part of the science National Curriculum programmes of study and should not be taught as science."
Well at least the UK is a lot clearer !. Ttiotsw 12:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Morphh has suggested that both (all?) sides should be presented. Taking him at his word, I would like to suggest the following section, entitled 'Mere Creation':
Although proponents of intelligent design frequently deny that it is Creationism or has a religious foundation, they also frequently discuss intelligent design in explicitly religious, and even Creationist, terms. Phillip Johnson has called "Mere Creation" the "defining concept of our movement," and this concept has made its way into book (Mere Creation; Science, Faith & Intelligent Design by William Dembski) and conference (Mere Creation: Scholars United Under Intelligent Design, a conference at which several prominent intelligent design advocates, including Stephen C. Meyer, William A. Dembski, Michael J. Behe and Phillip Johnson, presented) titles on the subject. Dembski has described intelligent design as "just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory."
Hrafn42 03:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
If anything requires a section, it seems to me that the issue of whether ID is a form of creationism may require one, in light of the complexities already discussed above. There already is a section on defining ID as science, so I don't see any reason to rule out a brief section summarizing the relationship of ID to the class of beliefs, philosophies and advocacy positions that, according to the WP:reliable sources, are reasonably termed "creationism". ... Kenosis 14:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
A link to this cartoon is contained in WP:NPOVFAQ: http://www.idrewthis.org/d/20040825.html I think it's topical. Hrafn42 17:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't see anything wrong with having Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center - Intelligent Design FAQs & Primers in the links. Besides User:Odd_nature removing it for incorrect reasons like "Undergraduate clubs", who objects? -- Yqbd 15:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness Center - Intelligent Design FAQs & Primers is much more informative and relevant to this article than the site's front page. -- Yqbd 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The site is not a undergraduate club or even a club. Please, read [9]. -- Yqbd 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
User:Odd_nature is reverting with false reasoning. S/he should read [10]. -- Yqbd 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The FAQ and Primers page is more related to the article. IDEA Center's FAQs and Primer page is well organized.-- Yqbd 16:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The Intelligent Design FAQs & Primers page summarizes and organizes information from other ID sites. -- Yqbd 16:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I object to linking against the faq. At one point during your edit war with most other editors of this article, someone removed the link to the faq, and replaced it with a link to the main site. I agree with that editorial decision, and I must question your motives for reverting that edit. The link you provided is POV and non-factual. It is inappropriate for the article to present the faq as though it were a reliable reference. Silly rabbit 15:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think we should even link to the IDEA main page considering IDEA clubs are for addled undergraduates gather and compare their notes on ID and organize their efforts to disrupt Wikipedia, and not sources of notable ID thought and writing. But if we do include a link to the IDEA club main site, it should be to the homepage only; per WP:NOT Wikipedia articles are not link farms. Odd nature 16:35, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
This is not an article about the IDEA Center. This is an article about ID. If anyone wants to view the IDEA Center's FAQ, they can navigate there from their main page themselves. – Fatalis 17:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Object to the link -- IDEACenter appears to be little more than a DI astroturf organisation, rather than a source of new information on ID. Should we also include Dembski's www.overwhelmingevidence.com? Hrafn42 17:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I also object linking to the FAQ, and honestly I have no idea why a link to the main page should be included. The site contain inaccuracies and personal attacks (there's currently an article about "the gospel of evolution according to Sean B. Carroll"), I don't see any relevant information on the website. Wikipedia is not a link farm, we should not include all the websites of creationists/evolutionists, and, in my opinion we should remove some links in the External Links section, many are not relevant (Italian/Finnish Intelligent Design site ?). - PhDP 23:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm fine with linking to the main page. I think this 501(c) is more appropriate then some of the others, particularly on the Non-ID perspective (wikis, ACLU, etc). The external links section needs a good cleanup for WP:EL guidelines. The entire media section can go. If they're good links, then they should be used as a reference - otherwise, get rid of them. Morphh (talk) 17:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Why not write an article about the IDEA clubs for Wikipedia instead of engaging in stupid edit wars?-- Filll 17:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Following WP:EL, I think we should remove the following links;
First;
It would be absurd to provide links tp all departments of evolutionary biology or tp all associations promoting evolution, I don't understand why we do this for IDists.
IMO, it violates guideline #1, there's nothing unique to this site. Also, there's many interesting links in the Non-ID subsection (e.g.:The Design Argument by Sober, E.), but there's already close to 200 references in this article, perhaps The Design Argument should be quoted somewhere but I think many links are not very useful.
- PhDP 03:24, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I wish I could agree with you, except that in many Islamic countries, it is forbidden to teach evolution even at the college or graduate school level. Turkey is one of the more liberal, and it has just suffered an immense backslide. This has also recently been an issue in Poland and Holland and Russia and several other countries, in addition to the UK (where the movement seems to have had tacit approval from the Government, or at least the cabinet, and recent public opinion polls show strong support for creationism, almost as strong as in the US). Therefore, these movements give every appearance of spreading. Even if these movements might be somewhat small at the moment in most foreign countries, they bear watching. The extent of these movements should be tracked and catalogued. Otherwise, we not only are not describing the situation accurately, but we are leaving ourselves open to attack by foreign editors for even having any articles on these subjects at all. And I believe that the removal or scaling back of these articles would not serve the readership of WP well. -- Filll 10:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
A creationist museum just opened in Canada. There are mounting concerns in Canada about emerging creationist efforts. I have had many conversations with a creationist in Australia who has a very different impression of what the situation is in Australia from what I gather from the media. And the recent public opinion poll results in the UK about creationism speak volumes, I think. The situation might not be near as serious in other countries, but I think that creationism is a threat in many countries, and that we should recognize it as such.-- Filll 11:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
In the opening definition, you quote "...best explained by an intelligent cause ...", but at least even one Discovery Institute writer (Dr. Behe) allows for there to have been intelligent causes (plural). Dr. Behe says that the theory of aliens from other planets bringing life to earth falls within the purviews of the intelligent design movement (Darwin's Black Box). Not only is this plural in the sense of there being more than one alien, but it could have been different aliens from different planets at different times making their contributions, or even aliens from the same place doing so for more than one intelligent reason.
So my first point is that you narrowly pick one definition for intelligent design from one Discovery Institute contributor, and erroneously apply that as the same definition that all the Discovery Institute leaders would give ... and if that much is wrong, it is definitely erroneous to think that every intelligent design leader or adherent would also give that same definition.
My second point is that the Dover School Board could be seen as leaders in the intelligent design movement in the political field - pioneers in defining a bold policy, yet they went ahead and acted in defiance of the advice given to them by the Discovery Institute. When Barbara Forrest (footnote 7) says that absolutely all of the intelligent design leaders are from the Discovery Institute, she is using a specific definition of leader. The Discovery Institute may be the leader insofar as media attention - what with all the press and all their books and popular efforts - but that does not make them the leading scientists in the field of intelligent design, nor the only political leaders, etc. There most be room for the movement to go on and new leaders to pick up where old ones left off. To deny the new leaders the privilege of using the "intelligent design" label just because they are not members of the Discovery Institute would be unfair and overly-restrictive.
My third point branches off from that. There must be room for the Intelligent Deisign movement to expand and grow, even when work on intelligent design is outside of the Discovery Institute. I've written a book entitled Getting Past the Culture Wars: Regarding Intelligent Design. The way this can be accomplished is to drop two of the most disappointing features of the early Discovery Institute movement, namely, the emphasis on the supernatural, and the antagonism towards Darwinian evolution. A modern ID movement which is both naturalistic and evolution-friendly would render most of your Wikipedia article moot, but it would still be Intelligent Design theory according to the original concept.
I would love to add my book to your article, but I wouldn't dare. The thing that bugs me, though, is that even if one of my readers tries to add my book to the Wikipedia discussion of Intelligent Design, you would try to use Discovery Institute sources to prove that my book's proposals are really not related to ID at all, since I am not a Discovery Institute fellow, and since my name was not brought up in the Dover trial. What kind of logic is that?
We can agree that evidence of intelligent causes does not constitute proof of the supernatural, and most scientists do not like to even infer the supernatural from the intelligent. Secondly, the definition that certain features can best be explained by an intelligent cause or intelligent causes, in no way dismisses certain other features which CAN best be explained by unidirected processes such as natural selection. It is no more anti-evolution to say that Darwinian explanations do not account for every characteristic of life forms on earth, than it would be anti-American to say that Americans did not come up with every technological advance on earth. The definition does not contrast the supernatural with the natural, but rather the intelligent causes with those causes which are non-intelligent. It never denies natural or unintelligent causes.
I attended a Dr. Shermer debate at Penn State Berks. It is very odd that he writes about debating the existence of a deity or intelligent designer, which is what he tried to do from his end, yet all the while Dr. Paul Nelson at the other podium never brought up either concept.
Dr. Nelson (of Discovery Institute) spoke of intelligent causes, not intelligent persons, and was very clear that he chose not to think of the intelligent causes as being supernatural. Dr. Shermer, on the other hand, talked about a God of the gaps, the super-natural, the age of the earth, and evidence for evolution.
Really, these two gentleman had no argument with each other. Dr. Shermer admitted the possibility of intelligent causes, provided we think of them as having a natural origin. Dr. Nelson said nothing to the contrary.
Dr. Nelson had nothing to say against evolution, nothing to say about the age of the earth, and nothing to say in favor of God or the supernatural during his 30-minute presentation of intelligent design. Dr. Shermer's only answer to Dr. Nelson's evidence of intelligent causes was to admit that it was very possible that they could in fact exist.
Dr. Robert F. DeHaan and Dr. Arthur V. Chadwick are two scientists that I quote in my book, and neither is from the Discovery Institute that I know of. They talk about an approach to ID which places ID "squarely in the natural order". So it is not just me who sees ANOTHER approach other than the one with supernatural implications.
This is the direction that I believe ID should go in the future: non-religious, and not antagonistic towards evolution. Your article is helping to stifle those changes and thwart my efforts by trying to put in concrete that ID is both about the supernatural and against evolution, much in the way that Judge Jones concluded at the Dover Trial. The Dover Trial was really against the Dover School Board, not the Discovery Institute. Even if the Discovery Institute could somehow have been justifiably implicated, it is not fair to talk as if the Dover Trial were truly against ID theory in and of itself, and against a movement which is much broader in perspective than what the Discovery Institute leaders may have originally bargained for. I don't think the Discovery Institute would be happy to have ID turned around to be a materialistic theory, since they would much rather see it lead people to God, but, as they say, one must follow the science where it leads.
Maybe it would be better to have one article about the Dover Trial and its conclusions, another about the Discovery Institute, and a third about Intelligent Design theory in general, instead of mixing up the trial and the Discovery Institute under the general heading of intelligent design. And what about separate headings for naturalistic intelligent design where religious and anti-evolution arguments play no part (no part, not as support, and not as criticism , because they would simply be irrelevant), and then a separate heading for creation-theory-related intelligent design where all the traditional debate sides can be presented?
Shrommer 03:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Although proponents of the IDM occasionally suggest that the designer could be a space alien or a time-traveling cell biologist, no serious alternative to God as the designer has been proposed by members of the IDM, including Defendants’ expert witnesses. (20:102-03 (Behe)). In fact, an explicit concession that the intelligent designer works outside the laws of nature and science and a direct reference to religion is Pandas’ rhetorical statement, “what kind of intelligent agent was it [the designer]” and answer: “On its own science cannot answer this question. It must leave it to religion and philosophy.”
Hrafn42 04:17, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, per Monk, the main concern here has to be the specter of original research. Once these theories come to represent a virtually undisputed bastion of creationist thinking, then we can incorporate them into Wikipedia articles. Until then, we should be wary of fringe ideas charming their way into the database. UberCryxic 21:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
On plurality of causes, Dr. Behe lists several non-intelligent causes for biological diverstity already accepted by mainstream science: common descent, natural selection, migration, population size, founder effects, genetic drift, linkage, meiotic drive, transposition, and much more. (Darwin's Black Box, Simon & Schuster, 1998, pp. 228-230.) Intelligent Design likewise allows for multiple forms of intelligent causes to all be found as factors in the development of life. There could be intracellular intelligence, intercellular intelligence, intelligent DNA, intelligent proteins, quantum intelligence, divine intelligence, natural intelligence as a universal principle, AND the intervention of alien intelligence from other planets.
Intelligent design has not nailed down where the intelligence lies, and does not try to with current research. For now, it only sees evidence of intelligence from the same deductions used to conclude that similar systems in the engineering fields have intelligent causes. The systems are similar in their being both specified and rare, or in evidences like closed-loops in biology, or in containing strings of information.
Recently we have discovered evidences of reasoning in birds where their behaviors were previously thought to have been only by instinct. We have also found ways to test for intelligence in other species, and believe we have found intelligence in monkeys, dolphins, etc. If intelligent design is pursued, ways will be devised to test for intelligence in sub-organism biology.
Another example I use is that there are different ways to account for flight: insect wings are different from feather wings are different from airplane wings are different from helicopter rotors are different from lighter-than-air lift. Up til now, we only understand intelligence on the neural level, like on the level of the brain organ. There is a whole new field of science waiting to be opened up about investigating other forms of intellgence in nature which could be behind the evolution of the species.
Shrommer 23:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like an interesting book. I read your comments about this wiki article and I agree with almost all of your points. There seems to be a lack of objectivity and lack of adherence to scientific principles here. Too much emphasis is on the politics and not enough on the science. Until the persons with political agendas who are controlling this article either get enlightened to true scientific principles or until wiki policies allow more science this article will be not a true representation of the subject matter. I will try to find your book. Octoplus 10:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
-- Filll 11:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Don't feed the unscientific: those who make unfounded claims. Octoplus 12:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I did some background-checking on Glenn Shrom. He currently teaches Spanish at The King's Academy [13] a hard-core Christian school [14], and has undergraduate degrees in Spanish and Music from Messiah College. [15] He appears to have no background in Science or Philosophy of Science, and to be just another self-appointed Creationist crank, and a particularly minor one at that, as he does not even appear to have had articles published by the normal wingnut crank outlets (Worldnetdaily, The Conservative Voice, etc), and seems to spend his time trying to defend his viewpoint on other people's blogs. Hrafn42 15:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Dear Monk, et al:
In an article titled "Show Me the Science," Daniel C. Dennett wrote, "no intelligent design hypothesis has even been ventured as a rival explanation of any biological phenomenon" (The New York Times, August 28, 2005). The proponents of intelligent design (ID) have nevertheless asserted that ID is a verified hypothesis (i.e., a scientific theory).
I tried to find ID stated in the form of a hypothesis – the assertion that phenomenon A caused phenomenon B. I could not find ID stated as a hypothesis so I crafted an intelligent design hypothesis that suits me. My IDH includes natural selection. The IDists at the Discovery Institute will probably not like my IDH but they have no standing to complain because, after years of ballyhooing about ID, they have never bothered to actually present ID in the form of a hypothesis that could become a scientific theory.
The Discovery Institutionists have claimed that ID is the “best” explanation for this and that, and they have claimed that life is so complex that life “must have been” designed and created by an intelligent designer. They have stated these opinions over and over but they have never actually asserted that an intelligent designer designed and created the universe. I decided to bring their obfuscationistic tactics to a screeching halt.
My definition of ID reads as follows: “Intelligent design is the assertion that many billions of years ago an intelligent designer designed and created the universe, including the Earth and a form of life that has evolved, by natural selection, into the many different forms of life that exist today.” See http://intelligent-design-hypothesis.com
The IDists will be annoyed, perhaps infuriated, to see “natural selection” included in an intelligent design hypothesis. But they cannot complain without stating an alternative IDH, and they will not state an alternative IDH because if they do it will become obvious that all they are doing is running a propaganda campaign for creationism.
The IDists are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. I do not feel sorry for them. I am proud that I have put an end to their silly propagandizing.
Scott1618 00:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
The part which says "and seek a fundamental redefinition of science, no longer limited to natural explanations, but accepting supernatural explanations as well" is misleading. Creationists claim that definition of science is fundamentally restricted to natural explanations, but is it really so? No. This is only held by people adhering to naturalism, which are only a small fraction of the scientific community (albeit the part that most loudly fights Intelligent Design, and a part that often claims to speak for the whole of science, while, in fact, they don't—professional science searches for new knowledge, it isn't a skeptics organization existing to debunk pseudoscience). Naturalism is only one philosophy of science, and all other philosophies do not make a distinction between natural and supernatural phenomena. For example, methodological approaches will say that it is not science's statements that are scientific, but it's the method of investigation that is. The whole article has been trickily written so that naturalists and creationists can agree to it. But did you ever take into account that this is not what neutrality is about and that there are more views on science than a naturalistic and a creationistic one? You should not describe things as uncontroversial just because naturalists and creationists both agree to it... -- rtc 03:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
If Rtc is unable to respond to the questions posed above, or produce some information that makes a tiny bit of sense, I will begin to wonder if we have not found something else under the bridge.-- Filll 05:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
rtc is quite clearly trolling, and has admitted that he has no substantiation for, or interest in substantiating, his original assertions. I would therefore suggest that he takes his irrelevant intellectual masturbations elsewhere. Hrafn42 06:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Science, I came to realize, doesn't rule out the possible existence of a supernatural world. It isn't logically committed to metaphysical naturalism. But it is committed to methodological naturalism, the view that, in our attempts to understand how the world works, we should look for naturalistic explanations rather than taking easy recourse to supernatural ones. The successes of science in bridging the gaps that used to be plugged by the gods creates a strong presumption in favour of the idea that gods not only aren't needed but don't exist. It doesn't prove, but it does probabilify to a high degree, the truth of metaphysical naturalism. And by the same token, it makes all supernatural beliefs highly improbable.
Any gratuitous assertion can be, by the laws of logic, gratuitously refuted. This is like trying to argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The scientific enterprise would grind to a halt if one allowed the introduction of miracles, supernatural causes, magic, gods, etc to explain the evidence in the natural world. I know of no serious, respected scientist who would deny this. In my years in science, I have not met any such person. The juducial world seems to agree with this position. I have not seen any surveys of attitudes, but I would find it difficult to believe that the attitudes about supernatural causes and influence in the universe are at variance with the attitudes about atheism, agnosticism, biblical literalism, etc. among scientists. Where is the evidence that would lead me to believe that scientists, although not able to use such reasoning in their professional work and publications, and not overwhelmingly believing in biblical literalism or its counterpart in Islam, Hinduism, or some other religion, actually reject naturalism? Only philosophers of science play such ludicrous games by nit picking scientific reasoning to death. Real scientists do not have time for such nonsense. If any of this can be demonstrated with examples instead of hypothetical assertions and philosopher's word play, then I am sure we would all be interested in seeing it. If not, then this is just talk page pollution.-- Filll 13:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent>So somehow science does not have methodological naturalism at its base? Wow I am astounded. This has escaped the notice of the US Supreme Court and the US National Academy of Sciences and the American Academy of Sciences and countless others. But the brilliant anonymous internet troll RTC discovered this, and no one else knows! Amazing. So let's try to convince the police and detectives and courts to drop methodological naturalism in crime investigations and convictions. The jails are full of people arrested for something a demon or a fairy or an ogre did. Their fingerprints and DNA magically appeared on the instruments of the crime. I wonder how far one could get with a defense based on the rejection of methodological naturalism? "Your honor, the magical imp stabbed my wife, and by a miracle the camera across the street shows me doing it, but I wasnt really there." How far do you think that would go? In fact rtc, you are under a magical spell and you do not own all the things you have- your car, your house, your possessions, your bank account. It all belongs to me. So hand it over or I will sue you. Seems more than fair, doesnt it? After all, you reject methodological naturalism!....Next time you get sick, or have a car accident, do not go to the hospital. Just pray. Let's fire all our doctors. Lets close all our medical schools. Let's not chlorinate our water or vaccinate ourselves. Let's not take antibiotics. Let's not use statics to design our bridges and buildings. It is all just methodological naturalism, after all. If methodological naturalism is good enough for police, or detectives, or doctors, or civil engineers, then surely it is good enough for scientists. -- Filll 23:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Note: My concerns in this section have nothing to do with the facts conveyed in this article; nothing to do with NPOV; nothing to do with sources or reliability or any of the usual things people argue about. I'm dealing solely with the prose style; nothing else.
There's a lot of really, thoroughly crappy prose in this article. There is excessive footnoting. There are long, wandering sentences. There's repetition. There's disorganization.
There are whole sections rendered practically unreadable -- and uneditable -- by excessive footnoting. Footnotes are applied not merely to paragraphs or even sentences, but to individual noun phrases. The introduction is three paragraphs long, and has thirty-five footnotes. In the third sentence, a single factual claim -- the association of intelligent-design advocates with the Discovery Institute -- receives seven footnotes alone.
The introduction includes details that are true and correct, but that are greatly excessive for an introduction, such as the names of three scientific associations that regard intelligent design as nonscientific, and a summary of the judge's opinion in Kitzmiller v. Dover. This kind of detail belongs in the article (and indeed is duplicated in the article) but does not belong in the introduction.
The article (excluding references) is 22 screens long on my browser. Eight screens, or more than a third of the article, form the section entitled "Overview". This is no overview; it is much of the meat of the article. It includes a history of intelligent design from Plato to Pandas. The history, however, jumps back and forth in time like something out of Doctor Who. Pandas is introduced at least twice, if not more. There is another section entitled "Controversy" -- never a good sign, since controversy is (as expected) all over the article. That section is mostly about the question of whether intelligent design is science.
The sentences ramble. Strunk and White would have conniptions. Many sentences have dangling modifiers, usually formed by splicing of a parenthetical and a conjunction: "The frogs are green, which is a pretty color, and very loud." What's loud -- the shade of green, or the frogs themselves?
Some examples:
So, what can be done about this?
Reorganize the sections. Ditch the "Overview" and "Controversy" sections. Juggle paragraphs to get sections something like the following:
Rewrite the introduction.
This can only be done after the article is reorganized, because the introduction needs to outline what the article says. The introduction should be short, punchy, and serve as an abstract of the article rather than a bullet list of details.
Clean up the prose style.
This can be done relatively independently of the larger-scale changes. Sentences like the ones I highlighted above need to be dragged out into the street and shot cleaned up. Each sentence should express a thought; each paragraph should express an idea. And all dangling modifiers should be chopped off.
Thoughts? -- FOo 08:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent> And of course the tricky bit is improving the prose, a worthy objective, without losing the careful and painfully achieved balance. This is a field rife with cunning misrepresentation, and loaded terms or descriptions have to be carefully balanced. .. dave souza, talk 21:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Interesting idea Fubar. But how about reorganizing the sections in a more fact based way? Something like the following:
And then, as you say, a new punchy introduction that reflects the content of the article. Pasado 22:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Given the number of references in the intro, would anyone object to merging some of the <ref> tags into bulletted lists? Silly rabbit 12:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I object, it's a bad idea for a number of reasons and has been discussed and rejected here recently in a now archived discussion. FeloniousMonk 15:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I tried to section off the "References" bit from the foregoing more general discussion. I couldn't make heads or tails of the above discussion, which seems to be talking about Fubar Obfusco's original massive edit suggestion. He does seem to be right about the preponderance of footnotes interfering with the readability. I recently put references into bulletted lists, which I felt dramatically improved the readability of the lead. This was then reverted on the false grounds that I had removed references. Any thoughts on which version is preferable? Silly rabbit 00:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence of the Wikipedia page about intelligent design describes intelligent design as a “claim.” That is an appropriate description of ID. I believe that the person who is publishing this claim should be identified. I therefore suggest that the first paragraph of the Wikipedia page about ID be revised to read as follows:
Intelligent design is the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." This claim is being published by Discovery Institute, a corporation organized under the laws of the State of Washington. Bruce Chapman is the founder and current president of Discovery Institute. [begin new paragraph]
It [intelligent design] is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God…[continue the current language]
I am proposing these revisions because I strongly believe that the “claim” should be attributed to the claimant. Mr. Chapman should not be allowed to hide behind a legal fiction (a corporation). He is the founder and current president of Discovery Institute and he must take personal responsibility for the claim that he is publishing. Scott1618 15:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
It is not necessary to identify the State of Washington or the Discovery Institute's corporate status. Those facts belong in the article on the Discovery Institute.
It is not clear that Mr. Chapman is the chief advocate of intelligent design, or the sole person "claiming" it. Other persons such as Michael Behe, William Dembski, and several former members of the Kansas Board of Education are also well-known proponents of the claim.
It is certainly atypical to connect an individual to an idea because that person publishes the idea. For instance, the Wall Street Journal frequently adopts neoconservative views in editorials on foreign policy, but it would be unnecessary -- and arguably abusive -- to feature L. Gordon Crovitz in the article on neoconservatism.
And in any event, this level of detail does not belong in the introduction! -- FOo 18:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
<unindent>I think it's reasonable to identify the DI as the origin of the quote, but the reference should do that already. I don't think we need to try and attribute it to a specific individual. Tevildo 23:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
In an effort to gain consensus, here are two possible revisions for the reference format:
Please note that the references contain precisely the same information, and occur in the same place in the text. Nothing has been removed from the article. The only difference is that adjacent references (without a "name=" field) have been aggregated into a bulletted list. In my opinion, this significantly improved the readability of the lead. Any preferences on one or the other? Silly rabbit 01:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Orangemarlin, have you read the introduction recently? Multiple mid-sentence footnotes are incredibly distracting to the reader. -- FOo 05:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Filll, what I'm hearing here is that because this article has featured article status, that it should be considered effectively frozen -- that it shouldn't be changed without a bureaucratic hell that nobody who has a job or any hobbies other than Wikipedia would be willing to go through. I don't consider that a useful or productive answer to the problems with this article.
I don't see why there's so much obstructionism here. There's basically nothing wrong with the facts of this article; they're just poorly organized, and many of the sentences are unclear and badly phrased. Most of the problems are relatively easy to fix, but some folks would apparently rather play bureaucrat and revert-warrior.
As it stands, I don't consider this article to be worthy of its feature bit. It easily meets most of the featured article criteria: it is comprehensive, factual, neutral, and stable (to a fault!) However, it fails to meet four of the criteria: 1a (well-written prose), 2a (concise intro), 2b (sensible headings), and 4 (appropriate length and focus).
These things can be fixed. But only if the obstructionism will go away. -- FOo 05:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Earlier, I posted regarding the dangling modifier in the following passage:
I challenged those who believe the prose in this article is clear, to tell me what noun phrase the prepositional phrase "primarily in the United States" is modifying. Does it modify "public sphere"? Or perhaps "social, academic, and political changes"? Or "religious agenda"? Or "neocreationist campaign"? Or "arose"?
Is the modifier saying that:
For that matter, there's another internal dangling modifier as well -- "employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere". By its meaning, this is meant to be attached to "campaign" or possibly "agenda". However, grammatically, it is attached to "political changes".
The prose in this article is frequently grammatically unclear. This isn't a matter of "reading level", as has been snidely suggested above. It's a matter of bad writing, and obstructionist editors who won't let it be fixed. -- FOo 16:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> For info: ""I have built an intellectual movement in the universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the materialistic basis of science. One very famous book that's come out of The Wedge is biochemist Michael Behe's book, Darwin's Black Box, which has had an enormous impact on the scientific world... the Darwinian theory isn't true. It's falsified by all of the evidence and the logic is terrible... where might you get the truth? When I preach from the Bible, as I often do at churches and on Sundays, I don't start with Genesis. I start with John 1:1. In the beginning was the word. In the beginning was intelligence, purpose, and wisdom. The Bible had that right. And the materialist scientists are deluding themselves". How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won – pretty sure there are other references to "that's when the wedge got together" etc. , if you want to start hunting there are some cited sources at the timeline of intelligent design. .... dave souza, talk 23:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
The intelligent design movement is a direct outgrowth of the "progressive" creationism of the 1980s.[Forrest cite] A group calling themselves The Wedge took up the campaign initiated by the Foundation for Thought and Ethics to teach creation science in schools under the name of intelligent design, and as part of the Discovery Institute developed what they called the " Wedge Strategy" as a campaign primarily conducted in the United States.[cites] By employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere it promotes a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes.[cites]
I see that my change didn't survive - at least we now have two sentences rather than one. :) There's one substantive query I'd have over one part of this section:
I don't think "concepts" is the right word, especially as we're forbidden from capitalizing "Intelligent Design". The concept (singular) is the teleological argument, which is a product of Plato, Aquinas, Paley, et al. I would suggest "arguments", or "modern intelligent design concepts", or perhaps "concepts of the intelligent design movement". I'd also like to lose the 's in the last paragraph (converting "obfuscating" from a gerund to a participle); alternatively, we could have "the Discovery Institute's obfuscation of its agenda"; and the [sic] in the Forrest quote. Tevildo 00:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
It's my understanding that the "wedge" was just a document that formalized the movement's strategy and helped with fund raising. What is the source that identifies the group of people that thought they were the wedge? Pasado 04:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Also note Wedge strategy cites Johnson's 1997 book Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds "we should affirm the reality of God by challenging the domination of materialism and naturalism in the world of the mind. With the assistance of many friends I have developed a strategy for doing this... We call our strategy the "wedge." pg. 91-92. An earlier section states Drafted in 1998 by Discovery Institute staff, the Wedge Document first appeared publicly after it was posted to the World Wide Web on February 5, 1999 by Tim Rhodes. The Wedge, Breaking the Modernist Monopoly on Science By Phillip E. Johnson which appeared in July/August 1999 has a section headed The Wedge Strategy which describes "the battle against the Darwinian mechanism [and] scientific materialists". The Wedge of Truth: Splitting the Foundations of Naturalism by Phillip E. Johnson was published in July 2000. Berkeley’s Radical, An Interview with Phillip E. Johnson in November 2000, gives answers to How did others become involved in the "wedge" strategy?. In October 2002 the Discovery Institute's William Dembski said "the wedge metaphor has outlived its usefulness", and in February 2006 the Discovery Institute published The "Wedge Document: So What? which states that the original document was only a fundraising proposal, and criticizes its opponents for what it believes are baseless accusations. .. dave souza, talk 08:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won talks about the wedge as a movement. Breaking the Modernist Monopoly on Science talks about "key Wedge figures" that were at a seminar. It's too much of a stretch to say this supports stating "A group calling themselves The Wedge...". There's no verification for that usage so we can't use it. So here's the paragraph with that part removed:
The intelligent design movement is a direct outgrowth of the "progressive" creationism of the 1980s.[Forrest cite] This movement was initiated by the Foundation for Thought and Ethics to teach creation science in schools under the name of intelligent design, and as part of the Discovery Institute developed what they called the " Wedge Strategy" as a campaign primarily conducted in the United States.[cites] By employing intelligent design arguments in the public sphere it promotes a religious agenda calling for broad social, academic and political changes.[cites]
Pasado 04:53, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Moved off topic ranting to rts' talk page ornis 12:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, I feel empirical science is more accurate. I checked with a few dictionaries as well. From American Heritage dictionary, empiricism is: 1. The view that experience, especially of the senses, is the only source of knowledge. 2a. Employment of empirical methods, as in science. 2b. An empirical conclusion. 3. The practice of medicine that disregards scientific theory and relies solely on practical experience.
Of the 4 definitions, only 2a. is useful in this context. From the Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, empiricism is:
Either of two closely related philosophical doctrines, one pertaining to concepts and the other to knowledge. The first doctrine is that most, if not all, concepts are ultimately derived from experience; the second is that most, if not all, knowledge derives from experience, in the sense that appeals to experience are necessarily involved in its justification. Neither doctrine implies the other. Several empiricists have allowed that some knowledge is a priori, or independent of experience, but have denied that any concepts are. On the other hand, few if any empiricists have denied the existence of a priori knowledge while maintaining the existence of a priori concepts. John Locke, George Berkeley, and David Hume are classical representatives of empiricism. See also Francis Bacon. Again, this is not as accurate as empirical science, frankly.
From the Columbia Encyclopedia, empiricism is: empiricism (ĕmpĭr'ĭsĭzəm) [Gr.,=experience], philosophical doctrine that all knowledge is derived from experience. For most empiricists, experience includes inner experience—reflection upon the mind and its operations—as well as sense perception. This position is opposed to rationalism in that it denies the existence of innate ideas. According to the empiricist, all ideas are derived from experience; therefore, knowledge of the physical world can be nothing more than a generalization from particular instances and can never reach more than a high degree of probability. Most empiricists recognize the existence of at least some a priori truths, e.g., those of mathematics and logic. John Stuart Mill was the first to treat even these as generalizations from experience. Empiricism has been the dominant but not the only tradition in British philosophy. Among its other leading advocates were John Locke, George Berkeley, and David Hume. See also logical positivism. Again, this is not as accurate as empirical science. So all things considered, empiricism is either too broad, or not quite the same meaning as the one we would like. So just leave this one alone please.-- Filll 19:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh please. This is an extremely old debate that ran from Descartes through the British empiricists. This phase, starting with John Locke and enduring quite a mentalistic sideshow by Bishop Berkeley, reached its culmination in the extremely skeptical conclusions of David Hume, which included such mind-twisters as the problem of induction, highly influential among the intelligentsia of the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Immanuel Kant, in response to Hume, defined in his Critique of Pure Reason (also translated as "Critique of Speculative Reason") the concept of phenomenon which would ultimately become a basic requirement of scientific method, specifically that science limits itself to what is empirically observable (observable by one or more of the five physical senses, aided perhaps by instrumentation, but observable nonetheless). Other criteria for scientific method would of course follow, leading up to today. But the debate that used the term "empiricism" to describe scientific method is increasingly outmoded, having given way to the term "empirical" as shorthand for limiting investigation to what is observable.
What Barbara Forrest does in the article noted by Rtc ( [19]) is merely review the dabate in philosophy and bring it into focus in the context of the modern term "methodological naturalism", because the intelligent design proponents have resurrected the question of phenomena vis-a-vis noumena and natural vis-a-vis supernatural. She says: "In response to the charge that methodological naturalism in science logically requires the a priori adoption of a naturalistic metaphysics, I examine the question whether methodological naturalism entails philosophical (ontological or metaphysical) naturalism." In the course of this examination, she uses the term "empiricism" in three instances as she revisits the now centuries-old philosophical debate.
By contrast, when we speak of scientific method today, the word "empirical" is standard, not "empiricist" or "empiricism". This is overwhelmingly the case, and I shouldn't even need to post a bunch of sources as indicators of this common usage by any number of reliable sources today. ... Kenosis 20:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
<undent>Well I have read Einstein's scientific work, and I did not see any discussion of critical rationalism or methodological naturalism or empiricism or any other philosophical terms. He might have done some work in that area, but it is certainly nothing that is well known in the science community and certainly not the reaason he is celebrated, or his major contributions to human knowledge. However, if you have references to prove me wrong, show me. The value of Einstein's work has been because of its empirical support. Otherwise, it would be useless. -- Filll 19:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh Jeez, not this again... Give it a rest. ID's proponents have staked their claims about ID in science, not philosophy, so this article is going to reflect that. Odd nature 18:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Because the current discussion has shown itself to be a bit of a conceptual minefield, I'll try to say the following carefully.
This discussion started with Rtc asserting, in essence, that the article should use the term "empiricism" instead of "empirical science" ("empirical science" presently is wikilinked to empiricism in the second sentence of the third paragraph of the section on Controversy, with the entire paragraph quoted immediately below). The text at issue presently is the first sentence and the first footnote that follows, with the footnote actually being in the second sentence of the paragraph:
Natural science uses the scientific method to create a posteriori knowledge based on observation alone (sometimes called empirical science). Intelligent design proponents seek to change this definition [1] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science [2] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism", [3] and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity. Intelligent design proponents argue that naturalistic explanations fail to explain certain phenomena and that supernatural explanations provide a very simple and intuitive explanation for the origins of life and the universe. [4] Proponents say that evidence exists in the forms of irreducible complexity and specified complexity that cannot be explained by natural processes. [5] [footnote numbers are different above than they are in the article]
There appear to be several issues overlapping and getting a bit conflated in the discussion with User:Rtc, including but not necessarily limited to the following:
1. Rtc proposes to use the term "empiricism" in the first sentence, which presently reads:
Personally I don't see the need to use the term "empiricism" in the text here, because "empirical science" presently links to the article on empiricism. And I also think the link to the article on empiricism is unnecessary here, because empirical is far more consistent with the modern discussion about what "science" focuses upon today.Natural science uses the scientific method to create a posteriori knowledge based on observation alone (sometimes called empirical science).
2.The footnote to Barbara Forrest's article presently occurs in the second sentence of the relevant paragraph, which reads
Intelligent design proponents seek to change this definition[116] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science[117] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism",[118] and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity.
For the present, I just changed the wikilink to link to "empirical" rather than "empiricism" here. ... Kenosis 04:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
<unindent>While I'm reluctant to support Rtc in general, I can't help but agree with him on this specific point. "A posteriori knowledge based on observation alone" _is_ empiricism, not empirical science. The problem arises from the statement "Natural science ... [creates] a posteriori knowledge based on observation alone." This sentence - and only this sentence, not the rest of the article - is an explicit claim that natural scicence is empiricist (not empirical). I would suggest that we re-write the sentence so that it doesn't make this claim; on the other hand, if it's a direct quote or paraphrase from Forrest, we should make it clear that it's her claim, and not ours. Tevildo 12:54, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Natural science uses the scientific method to create a posteriori knowledge based on observation and repeated testing of hypotheses and theories (sometimes called empirical science). Intelligent design proponents seek to change this fundamental basis of science[116] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science[117] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism",[118] and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity.
<unindent>Moving for the moment to another related issue with this paragraph, I wonder about the sentence that reads:
Intelligent design proponents seek to change this definition[116] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science[117] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism",[118] and what critics call "methodological supernaturalism," which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity.
The last clause appears to me that it might be incorrect. It isn't just critics that have termed it methodological supernaturalism, but proponents too. See, e.g., Mark I. Vuletic (1997) "Methodological Naturalism and the Supernatural" (presented at "Naturalism, Theism and the Scientific Enterprise: An Interdisciplinary Conference at the University of Texas--Austin", Feb. 20-23, 1997 http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/philosophy/faculty/koons/ntse/papers/Vuletic.html. And it also appears to me that not many sources have used the term at all, whether critic or proponent. Perhaps this should be a separate sentence? Perhaps, even if kept in the same sentence, it might say something like "... and what some have called it methodological supernaturalism." and perhaps put the note about what methodogical supernaturalism means in a separate sentence within parentheses? ... Kenosis 11:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Intelligent design proponents seek to change this fundamental basis of science [6] by eliminating " methodological naturalism" from science [7] and replacing it with what the leader of the intelligent design movement, Phillip E. Johnson, calls " theistic realism", [8] Some have called this approach "methodological supernaturalism", which means belief in a transcendent, nonnatural dimension of reality inhabited by a transcendent, nonnatural deity. [9][footnote #s different herein]
In a related development, I made an edit to the first sentence of the section on Intelligent design#Controversy directly related to the discussion above. Specifically, I changed the first sentence of the paragraph at issue in this talk-section to the following, for now at least:
Empirical science uses the scientific method to create a posteriori knowledge based on observation and repeated testing of hypotheses and theories.
The following is an attempt to reduce the size and verbosity of the introduction while retaining all the essential facts. It reduces the introduction from 371 to 309 words (not including reference text or comments). No references have been removed or altered.
Here's what I did:
Please provide concrete and specific responses to this proposed edit. For instance, if you think I've understated a particular point, provide the precise phrasing you would like to see. -- FOo 03:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Intelligent design is the claim that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." [5] [10] [11] It is a modern form of the traditional teleological argument for the existence of God, modified to avoid specifying the nature or identity of the designer. [12] [13] [14] Its primary proponents, members of the Discovery Institute, [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] believe the designer to be the Abrahamic God. [22]
Intelligent design's advocates claim that it is a scientific theory, [23] while seeking to redefine science to accept supernatural as well as natural explanations. [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] The consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science. [29] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has argued that intelligent design fails to be science, because it makes no testable predictions or hypotheses. [30] Other scientific associations have concurred, or termed it pseudoscience or junk science. [31] [32] [33] [34] [35] [36] [37]
The term "intelligent design" originated in response to a 1987 United States Supreme Court ruling, Edwards v. Aguillard, which forbade the teaching of " creation science" in public schools on constitutional grounds of separation of church and state. [38] The first significant published use of "intelligent design" was in a 1989 textbook intended for high-school biology classes titled Of Pandas and People. [39] The Discovery Institute was founded the following year. [40] [41] [42] This " intelligent design movement" became more visible in the 1990s and early 2000s, as a small number of U.S. school districts adopted intelligent design into their science curricula. In 2005, a group of parents of students in Dover, Pennsylvania brought a lawsuit challenging the practice. In this case, Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, the court ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and thus that the school district's promotion of it violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. [43]
A defining characteristic of ID is that it is a form of creationism. This needs to be stated in the introductory paragraph.
Pasado
05:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
My offhand impression is that it's best, in light of the many concerns involved in a controversial article such as this, to keep following the same plan. But, of course, WP:consensus is never permanent, but only requires a sufficient warrant to override a prior consensus and a reasonable justification for following a differnt path. Speaking for myself, I look forward to reading such justification(s). ... Kenosis 05:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Pasado's suggestion is to mention that ID is a form of creationism. This is not in the current introduction, except in the form of the Kitzmiller court's remarks on the "creationist antecedents" of ID. I don't object to it being added in the future, but I don't think it needs to go in this revision.
Hrafn42's suggestion is to shorten the introduction further by removing more details about Kitzmiller v. Dover, but to include more details about the case in a section in the article. I agree with the shortened phrasing. I'd like to see a Kitzmiller v. Dover suggestion.
I can't tell what Kenosis is suggesting. Kenosis, could you please clarify the specific concrete changes you're suggesting? -- FOo 06:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Kenosis states "The longstanding form of the introduction has been: Paragraph 1 - What ID is and who are its proponents". Since a defining characteristic of ID is that it's a form of creationism, and we have further verification of this with the May 2007 Forrest cite, why is this not in paragraph 1? Pasado 07:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I also participated in the very heated discussions about the current lead. It was forged by very very difficult compromises and negotiating. Big changes will end up with more big big long drawn out fights. The article might have drawbacks, but it is at FA status. Sure it can be improved, but I would aim for small changes, not big changes. There are many other places where we need editor input besides this article which has already reached FA status. Lets improve some of its sister articles and bring them up to a higher standard as well, or fill in some of our missing articles in this topic area, rather than waste HUGE amounts of time trying to improve an article that has already reached FA status.-- Filll 08:26, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
As indicated in the timeline of intelligent design, the sequence in the following couple of sentences seems misleading: "The first significant published use of "intelligent design" was in a 1989 textbook intended for high-school biology classes titled Of Pandas and People. The Discovery Institute was founded the following year. This "intelligent design movement" became more visible in the 1990s and early 2000s, as a small number of U.S. school districts adopted intelligent design into their science curricula." The following suggestion aims to clarify this, and cover the point that the "wedge" proponents initially seem to have had little connection with the FTE writers / editors who introduced ID campaigning, but then the "wedge" began to present themselves as "intelligent design scholars" and, together with the FTE originals, were funded by the DI through the CSC from 1996 –
Use of the term "intelligent design" originated in response to a 1987 United States Supreme Court ruling, Edwards v. Aguillard, which forbade the teaching of " creation science" in public schools on constitutional grounds of separation of church and state. To avoid this restriction the 1989 high-school biology textbook Of Pandas and People used the term to replace "creation science", initiating campaigning to promote the teaching of intelligent design. The wedge strategy supported by the Discovery Institute developed the " intelligent design movement" pressing for political and educational changes, and a small number of U.S. school districts adopted intelligent design into their science curricula. In 2005, a group of parents of students in Dover, Pennsylvania brought a lawsuit challenging the practice. In this case, Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, the court ruled that intelligent design is not science, that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and thus that the school district's promotion of it violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution.
It's a little longer, but in my opinion much clearer. . .. dave souza, talk 10:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
A few specific comments on Fubar's proposal:
Given the nature of the contributions of RTC to this talk page over a substantial period, their repeated nonsense assertions and combative nature, I propose that any contribution of RTC that resembles trolling or tendentious repetition of previously dismissed arguments and POV nit-picking be removed to his talk page.-- Filll 14:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
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