Do what you want. Any attempt to improve things by me is just getting unilaterally reverted without even getting a reason given. (151's last revert directs me to the talk page for his reason - on which he says nothing, so...) Adam Cuerden talk 21:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
What is all the html and comment garbage in the article? It's making editing a nightmare. Mr Christopher 01:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Jan Michl: Without a godlike designer no designerlike God. "Design and Evolution" conference, Delft University of Technology and the Henri Baudet Institute, Delft, Holland, 31 August - 2 September 2006.
I found this paper on David Miller's home page as his "This month's recommendation". The paper tries to bang creationists' and their opponents' heads together. Perhaps it can be considered as an unconventional position to be described in the article. -- Rtc 21:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the assertion that ID does not require a supernatural being is misleadiing, and the article already deals with this in a way that's properly attributed. The question "who designed the designers?", something even a ten-year-old child is familiar with, leads to an infinite regress. ... Kenosis 09:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm willing to live with the tag for the section, to avoid an edit war until we reach a broad consensus. Orangemarlin 23:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. Everybody's revert-happy and claiming consensus. I've protected the page. Adam Cuerden talk 02:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This page is one of the most egregious examples of Wikipedia unreliability. I'm a non-religious person who is open to MET and ID and I can see the obvious bias that pervades. The opening synoposis is laughable. This article should be permanantly deleted since the idealogues are incapable of objectivity.
(Sorry. I put this at the top this morning instead of the bottom, leading to someone thinking I added the POV tag without justifying it...)
I believe this article has POV issues.
NigelCunningham 00:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
"Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular." This being how the NPOV policy applies to this topic, your fourth point answers itself. 151.151.21.102 19:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean to be coy, but I thought it's usage in academia has been obsolete for at least the last half-century, except in circles arguing only for a purely creation-based POV. Please see Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution... Kenosis 00:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be helpful (if I can find the time) if I made my own version of the page that I believe addresses the above concerns (primarily by rearranging material) and then pointed you all to it? NigelCunningham 01:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that in light of the recent "edit wars" on featured articles Intelligent Design and Global warming we should all think a way to make wikipedia policies more robust to avoid such things in the future. Keeping in mind that, of course, the openness of the project must be preserved, we must also give new policy tools to avoid that an organized minority with an agenda can push its pov and save frustrating time wastes to editors. Maybe something can be done giving more details on how to use sources of different reliability.-- BMF81 15:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The very recent implementing of complete edit protection unfortunately has caused the article to presently be suffering from a very basic error that would, I think, be difficult to justify in general. A sentence in the lead currently reads: "The overwhelming consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science;[7] The National Science Teachers Association and others have termed it pseudoscience,[8] and some have termed it junk science.[9] " Note that two sentences are separated by a colon. Perhaps it could be unprotected for long enough to resolve this third-grade-level issue and then return to the natural (or is it supernatural?) business as usual. ... Kenosis 02:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
....i think it's pretty well balanced generally - but there's a couple of small changes that might improve this version without changing it much;
and as a final note, it's a slightly longer intro than might be desirable, but works pretty well i think! - might be unprotected soon? - some of these tweaks would probably soon produce a good compromise....
thanks all, Petesmiles 14:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
...And while we'er on the subject, this sentence from the intro is not quite logical: "It is a modern form of the teleological argument (an argument for the existence of God), framed in such a way that it does not specify the nature or identity of the designer." If it's arguing that the designer is intelligent, then it does indeed specify the nature of the afore-mentioned designer. PiCo 08:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, it may be appropriate to more closely examine some of the proposed minor changes mentioned above in this section before any decision is made either to implement or abandon the suggestions. For instance, the suggestion that "specifically of living things" is more suitable is not in keeping with the quote provided from the DI's longstanding explanation of what ID argues. Please note the quote from the DI in the first footnote of the article, which refers only to "certain features of the universe and of living things". I'm not saying that the word "specifically" is not a reasonable editorial suggestion; it's a very reasonable one in my opinion, but it should be more closely examined before a decision is made whether to use editorial discretion to include this additional adverb in the very first sentence of the article which quickly defines ID for the reader. Also note that much of the first sentence was previously in quotations, and remains a nearly verbatim quote of the DI's definition. This immediately raises the question whether the quotation marks should be replaced and any editorial modifications of the language set in brackets per standard writing convention, ideally along with additional citations justifying any such modifications. Or, perhaps better yet, just replace the quotations and keep that part of the first sentence as a direct quote, as it was earlier. ... Kenosis 15:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, I hereby modify the second sentence of two that r-b-j has asserted are "bullshit" to: " In the interim, r-b-j has over time increasingly displayed indications of a much more intimate knowledge of the topic than he displayed at first, irrespective of what his personal POV may be about the topic." And, this statement in either form was intended as a compliment, because it's a complex topic the various issues of which relatively very few people understand in depth. Those issues with regard to this topic at minimum involve socio-political, theological, philosophical, educational, and legal factors, along with a well thought out propaganda campaign that has been well funded. Like any complex subject matter, it's a process that takes a great deal of time and effort to understand the essential factors that are involved, else it would be simple to understand rather than complex, and no such compliment would be necessary or appropriate. ... Kenosis 01:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Reading the intro and its sources, I see the passage described in Pete's first two points is essentially a direct quote of the definition of ID from the Discovery Institute, IDNet, and IDEA, the 3 main ID organizations. Since articles need to rely on the most notable and significant sources when covering a particular viewpoint I don't think deviating from that viewpoint's own prose is necessary or wise. I don't think it makes much difference whether we drop Abrahmic and just use God, the issue is described in depth further down. I also agree with Pete is a very good article that deals with a very complicated and not always forthright debate in a balanced and accurate way. Odd nature 18:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Gentlemen: any discussion about intelligent design is virtually guaranteed to have elements of POV contained within it, insofar as the whole concept is a matter of opinion. Or a matter of faith. Could I suggest that, while debating the issues as you all think fit, it would be better to abstain from personal comments and personal attacks, however gently phrased?-- Anthony.bradbury 23:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
After the discussions and arguments in early April of 2007, several weeks ago and easily viewable in the most recent archive, the article text reads like this:
Intelligent design is the proposition that certain features of the universe and of living things can be better explained by an intelligent cause rather than natural processes such as natural selection.[1] It is a modern form of the teleological argument (an argument for the existence of God), framed in such a way that it does not specify the nature or identity of the designer.[2] Its primary proponents, all of whom are associated with the Discovery Institute,[3][4] believe the designer to be the Abrahamic God,[5] and claim that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[6]
The overwhelming consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science;[7] The National Science Teachers Association and others have termed it pseudoscience,[8] and some have termed it junk science.[9] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[10]
In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), a United States federal court ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach intelligent design as an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. United States District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[11] During the trial, intelligent design advocate Michael Behe testified under oath that no scientific evidence in support of the intelligent design hypothesis has been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.[12]
Previously the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design is an argument for the existence of God,[1] based on the premise that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[2] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[3][4][5] claim that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[6]
The scientific community states unequivocally that intelligent design is not science;[7] many scientists and at least one major organization of science teachers have also termed it pseudoscience,[8] and some have termed it junk science.[9] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[10]
In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), a United States federal court ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach intelligent design as an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. United States District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[11] During the trial, intelligent design advocate Michael Behe testified under oath that no scientific evidence in support of the intelligent design hypothesis has been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.[12]
It may be appropriate at this point to review how it read before, presented here in chronological order at three month intervals, all "post-Kitzmiller". The decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover was published in early December of 2005. In late December of 2005, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent, as opposed to an unguided process such as natural selection."[1] Proponents say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life.[2]
An overwhelming majority[3] of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience or junk science.[4] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[5]
United States federal courts have ruled as unconstitutional a public school district requirement endorsing intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in science classes, on the grounds that its inclusion violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005) United States federal court judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.
In late March of 2006, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute[2] , say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life.[3]
An overwhelming majority[4] of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience[5] or junk science.[6] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[7]
A United States federal court recently ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), United States District Judge John E. Jones III also ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.
In late June of 2006, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life.[3]
An overwhelming majority[4] of the scientific community views intelligent design as pseudoscience[5] or junk science.[6] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[7]
A United States federal court recently ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), United States District Judge John E. Jones III also ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[8]
In late September of 2006, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[3]
An overwhelming majority of the scientific community views intelligent design as unscientific,[4] as pseudoscience[5][6] or as junk science.[7][8] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[9]
In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), a United States federal court ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. United States District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[10]
In late December of 2006, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1][2][3] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[4][5][6][7][8][9] assert that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[10]
The scientific community views intelligent design as unscientific,[11] as pseudoscience[12][13][14] or as junk science.[15][16] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[17]
In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), a United States federal court ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. United States District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[18]
And it has taken a lot of talk and arguing, some two megabytes in the past year-and-a-half or so, since long prior to my own participation in WP, to get from point A (immediately post-Kitzmiller) to point B (today). Note that numerous options were just put forward in the period from about the beginning of April of this year, and especially about April 9 through April 14 or so in which neither myself nor most of the other earlier editors who are intimately familiar with this topic participated substantially if at all, and still the present version is remarkably similar to the one that emerged very soon after the Kitzmiller decision. Surely this should demonstrate some level of viability of the consensus process by which WP editors arrived at the current expression of WP:NPOV and WP:Attribution in this article... Kenosis 03:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, this should be titled "Refutation of Intelligent Design" This is nothing more than an agnostic/skeptic/atheist platform to rebuke intelligent design. When I go to the Jesus page...or the Muhammad page, or the Zeus page of Wiki, I do not expect refutation in the opening paragraph. This is NOT a neutral perspective on Intelligent Design, it is just a platform for zealots to control this encyclopedia and impose their view. I do not CARE about refutation, I wanted to learn about ID...not the refutation of it. And the overwhelming majority of this article is refutation. If you want to refute all of ID...make a seperate article for refutations. Thats what people did with Hillary Clinton and scores of other articles. But you can't do that. Why? Because you just cannot bear the idea that something be presented neutrally that conflicts with your secular convictions. Stop hiding behind your delusional NPOV. This is not NPOV. not even close. And that is why atheists approve of this article so whole-heartedly....because ID is so well refuted. Until all of ID points are well refuted, the atheists who guard this topic are not happy with it. Once all points are fully refuted, only then does it get the NPOV stamp. You can assume I believe in ID, but that would be false. I just enjoy reading articles here from time to time, but the overwhelming stench of cramming an article full of refutation such that every single point has a detailed rebuke is simply ad-nasuem. It makes a joke out of this entire site. This article is another example (of thousands) of why Wikipedia is an unreliable source of bias.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 ( talk • contribs) 07:09, 25 April 2007
This article violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight. Undue weight states that "Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority. " People who hawk this article misapply this point to the ID article. This is fallacy because ID, a minority view *IS* the topic of the article. If the topic of this article were Evolution, then only would ID be granted a very limited space. But because the very topic of the article is in itself the pseudo-science, undue weight is not violated if the majority of the article presents ID without refutation. The hawks who guard this article have it backwards. They feel that unless refutation exceed the claims of ID, then undue weight is violated. This reasoning would only apply if a pseudoscience were presented on a page whose topic was established science. Note that the actual wiki article Flat Earth has...by far....less refutation than ID. Why? Because if the TOPIC of the article is Flat Earth, then undue weight cannot be violated since the topic itself IS the pseudoscience. You will see this on numerous pseudoscience articles. Refutation should never outweigh the topic. This ID article actually contains more text that is refuting than text that presents. To claim this is NPOV is a joke. Please make 2 articles: ID and refutations of ID. The article as it is now is blatantly biased and in violation of the spirit of wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 ( talk • contribs) 07:13, 25 April 2007
Good comparison - Aquatic ape hypothesis - not supporting either as taking a better example. just providing an article that qualifies as contemporary bunk science.-- ZayZayEM 13:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
As I see it, there's four options?
As mentioned in the article, a main strategy of ID proponents to change the definition of a scientific theory. I believe it is significant and worthy of note that, under oath, Behe admitted that astrology fits this new definition of a scientific theory. [2]
Q = Lawyer, A = Behe
Q Now, you claim that intelligent design is a scientific theory.
A Yes.
Q But when you call it a scientific theory, you're not defining that term the same way that the National Academy of Sciences does.
A Yes, that's correct.
[...]
Q And using your definition, intelligent design is a scientific theory, correct?
A Yes.
Q Under that same definition astrology is a scientific theory under your definition, correct?
A Under my definition, a scientific theory is a proposed explanation which focuses or points to physical, observable data and logical inferences. There are many things throughout the history of science which we now think to be incorrect which nonetheless would fit that -- which would fit that definition. Yes, astrology is in fact one, and so is the ether theory of the propagation of light, and many other -- many other theories as well.
Xerxesnine 15:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
This is yet another illustration of how restrained this article is in light of the many relevant and verified facts involved. Seeking NPOV has been a tough gig on this article, as many participants will I think be willing to attest. Currently the article mentions only that "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with 'a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.'[14]" I personally have no preferences at the moment whether the article about "intelligent design" should be more specific about this particular issue. ... Kenosis 16:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Do what you want. Any attempt to improve things by me is just getting unilaterally reverted without even getting a reason given. (151's last revert directs me to the talk page for his reason - on which he says nothing, so...) Adam Cuerden talk 21:50, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
What is all the html and comment garbage in the article? It's making editing a nightmare. Mr Christopher 01:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Jan Michl: Without a godlike designer no designerlike God. "Design and Evolution" conference, Delft University of Technology and the Henri Baudet Institute, Delft, Holland, 31 August - 2 September 2006.
I found this paper on David Miller's home page as his "This month's recommendation". The paper tries to bang creationists' and their opponents' heads together. Perhaps it can be considered as an unconventional position to be described in the article. -- Rtc 21:06, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the assertion that ID does not require a supernatural being is misleadiing, and the article already deals with this in a way that's properly attributed. The question "who designed the designers?", something even a ten-year-old child is familiar with, leads to an infinite regress. ... Kenosis 09:43, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm willing to live with the tag for the section, to avoid an edit war until we reach a broad consensus. Orangemarlin 23:17, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This is getting ridiculous. Everybody's revert-happy and claiming consensus. I've protected the page. Adam Cuerden talk 02:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This page is one of the most egregious examples of Wikipedia unreliability. I'm a non-religious person who is open to MET and ID and I can see the obvious bias that pervades. The opening synoposis is laughable. This article should be permanantly deleted since the idealogues are incapable of objectivity.
(Sorry. I put this at the top this morning instead of the bottom, leading to someone thinking I added the POV tag without justifying it...)
I believe this article has POV issues.
NigelCunningham 00:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
"Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular." This being how the NPOV policy applies to this topic, your fourth point answers itself. 151.151.21.102 19:21, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean to be coy, but I thought it's usage in academia has been obsolete for at least the last half-century, except in circles arguing only for a purely creation-based POV. Please see Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution... Kenosis 00:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be helpful (if I can find the time) if I made my own version of the page that I believe addresses the above concerns (primarily by rearranging material) and then pointed you all to it? NigelCunningham 01:21, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that in light of the recent "edit wars" on featured articles Intelligent Design and Global warming we should all think a way to make wikipedia policies more robust to avoid such things in the future. Keeping in mind that, of course, the openness of the project must be preserved, we must also give new policy tools to avoid that an organized minority with an agenda can push its pov and save frustrating time wastes to editors. Maybe something can be done giving more details on how to use sources of different reliability.-- BMF81 15:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The very recent implementing of complete edit protection unfortunately has caused the article to presently be suffering from a very basic error that would, I think, be difficult to justify in general. A sentence in the lead currently reads: "The overwhelming consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science;[7] The National Science Teachers Association and others have termed it pseudoscience,[8] and some have termed it junk science.[9] " Note that two sentences are separated by a colon. Perhaps it could be unprotected for long enough to resolve this third-grade-level issue and then return to the natural (or is it supernatural?) business as usual. ... Kenosis 02:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
....i think it's pretty well balanced generally - but there's a couple of small changes that might improve this version without changing it much;
and as a final note, it's a slightly longer intro than might be desirable, but works pretty well i think! - might be unprotected soon? - some of these tweaks would probably soon produce a good compromise....
thanks all, Petesmiles 14:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
...And while we'er on the subject, this sentence from the intro is not quite logical: "It is a modern form of the teleological argument (an argument for the existence of God), framed in such a way that it does not specify the nature or identity of the designer." If it's arguing that the designer is intelligent, then it does indeed specify the nature of the afore-mentioned designer. PiCo 08:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, it may be appropriate to more closely examine some of the proposed minor changes mentioned above in this section before any decision is made either to implement or abandon the suggestions. For instance, the suggestion that "specifically of living things" is more suitable is not in keeping with the quote provided from the DI's longstanding explanation of what ID argues. Please note the quote from the DI in the first footnote of the article, which refers only to "certain features of the universe and of living things". I'm not saying that the word "specifically" is not a reasonable editorial suggestion; it's a very reasonable one in my opinion, but it should be more closely examined before a decision is made whether to use editorial discretion to include this additional adverb in the very first sentence of the article which quickly defines ID for the reader. Also note that much of the first sentence was previously in quotations, and remains a nearly verbatim quote of the DI's definition. This immediately raises the question whether the quotation marks should be replaced and any editorial modifications of the language set in brackets per standard writing convention, ideally along with additional citations justifying any such modifications. Or, perhaps better yet, just replace the quotations and keep that part of the first sentence as a direct quote, as it was earlier. ... Kenosis 15:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, I hereby modify the second sentence of two that r-b-j has asserted are "bullshit" to: " In the interim, r-b-j has over time increasingly displayed indications of a much more intimate knowledge of the topic than he displayed at first, irrespective of what his personal POV may be about the topic." And, this statement in either form was intended as a compliment, because it's a complex topic the various issues of which relatively very few people understand in depth. Those issues with regard to this topic at minimum involve socio-political, theological, philosophical, educational, and legal factors, along with a well thought out propaganda campaign that has been well funded. Like any complex subject matter, it's a process that takes a great deal of time and effort to understand the essential factors that are involved, else it would be simple to understand rather than complex, and no such compliment would be necessary or appropriate. ... Kenosis 01:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Reading the intro and its sources, I see the passage described in Pete's first two points is essentially a direct quote of the definition of ID from the Discovery Institute, IDNet, and IDEA, the 3 main ID organizations. Since articles need to rely on the most notable and significant sources when covering a particular viewpoint I don't think deviating from that viewpoint's own prose is necessary or wise. I don't think it makes much difference whether we drop Abrahmic and just use God, the issue is described in depth further down. I also agree with Pete is a very good article that deals with a very complicated and not always forthright debate in a balanced and accurate way. Odd nature 18:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Gentlemen: any discussion about intelligent design is virtually guaranteed to have elements of POV contained within it, insofar as the whole concept is a matter of opinion. Or a matter of faith. Could I suggest that, while debating the issues as you all think fit, it would be better to abstain from personal comments and personal attacks, however gently phrased?-- Anthony.bradbury 23:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
After the discussions and arguments in early April of 2007, several weeks ago and easily viewable in the most recent archive, the article text reads like this:
Intelligent design is the proposition that certain features of the universe and of living things can be better explained by an intelligent cause rather than natural processes such as natural selection.[1] It is a modern form of the teleological argument (an argument for the existence of God), framed in such a way that it does not specify the nature or identity of the designer.[2] Its primary proponents, all of whom are associated with the Discovery Institute,[3][4] believe the designer to be the Abrahamic God,[5] and claim that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[6]
The overwhelming consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science;[7] The National Science Teachers Association and others have termed it pseudoscience,[8] and some have termed it junk science.[9] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[10]
In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), a United States federal court ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach intelligent design as an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. United States District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[11] During the trial, intelligent design advocate Michael Behe testified under oath that no scientific evidence in support of the intelligent design hypothesis has been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.[12]
Previously the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design is an argument for the existence of God,[1] based on the premise that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[2] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[3][4][5] claim that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[6]
The scientific community states unequivocally that intelligent design is not science;[7] many scientists and at least one major organization of science teachers have also termed it pseudoscience,[8] and some have termed it junk science.[9] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[10]
In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), a United States federal court ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach intelligent design as an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. United States District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[11] During the trial, intelligent design advocate Michael Behe testified under oath that no scientific evidence in support of the intelligent design hypothesis has been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.[12]
It may be appropriate at this point to review how it read before, presented here in chronological order at three month intervals, all "post-Kitzmiller". The decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover was published in early December of 2005. In late December of 2005, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent, as opposed to an unguided process such as natural selection."[1] Proponents say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life.[2]
An overwhelming majority[3] of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience or junk science.[4] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[5]
United States federal courts have ruled as unconstitutional a public school district requirement endorsing intelligent design as an alternative to evolution in science classes, on the grounds that its inclusion violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005) United States federal court judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.
In late March of 2006, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute[2] , say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life.[3]
An overwhelming majority[4] of the scientific community views intelligent design not as a valid scientific theory but as pseudoscience[5] or junk science.[6] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[7]
A United States federal court recently ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), United States District Judge John E. Jones III also ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.
In late June of 2006, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life.[3]
An overwhelming majority[4] of the scientific community views intelligent design as pseudoscience[5] or junk science.[6] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[7]
A United States federal court recently ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), United States District Judge John E. Jones III also ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[8]
In late September of 2006, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[3]
An overwhelming majority of the scientific community views intelligent design as unscientific,[4] as pseudoscience[5][6] or as junk science.[7][8] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[9]
In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), a United States federal court ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. United States District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[10]
In late December of 2006, the article lead was as follows:
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."[1][2][3] Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[4][5][6][7][8][9] assert that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[10]
The scientific community views intelligent design as unscientific,[11] as pseudoscience[12][13][14] or as junk science.[15][16] The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has stated that intelligent design "and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life" are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own.[17]
In Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005), a United States federal court ruled that a public school district requirement for science classes to teach that intelligent design is an alternative to evolution was a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. United States District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that intelligent design is not science and is essentially religious in nature.[18]
And it has taken a lot of talk and arguing, some two megabytes in the past year-and-a-half or so, since long prior to my own participation in WP, to get from point A (immediately post-Kitzmiller) to point B (today). Note that numerous options were just put forward in the period from about the beginning of April of this year, and especially about April 9 through April 14 or so in which neither myself nor most of the other earlier editors who are intimately familiar with this topic participated substantially if at all, and still the present version is remarkably similar to the one that emerged very soon after the Kitzmiller decision. Surely this should demonstrate some level of viability of the consensus process by which WP editors arrived at the current expression of WP:NPOV and WP:Attribution in this article... Kenosis 03:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, this should be titled "Refutation of Intelligent Design" This is nothing more than an agnostic/skeptic/atheist platform to rebuke intelligent design. When I go to the Jesus page...or the Muhammad page, or the Zeus page of Wiki, I do not expect refutation in the opening paragraph. This is NOT a neutral perspective on Intelligent Design, it is just a platform for zealots to control this encyclopedia and impose their view. I do not CARE about refutation, I wanted to learn about ID...not the refutation of it. And the overwhelming majority of this article is refutation. If you want to refute all of ID...make a seperate article for refutations. Thats what people did with Hillary Clinton and scores of other articles. But you can't do that. Why? Because you just cannot bear the idea that something be presented neutrally that conflicts with your secular convictions. Stop hiding behind your delusional NPOV. This is not NPOV. not even close. And that is why atheists approve of this article so whole-heartedly....because ID is so well refuted. Until all of ID points are well refuted, the atheists who guard this topic are not happy with it. Once all points are fully refuted, only then does it get the NPOV stamp. You can assume I believe in ID, but that would be false. I just enjoy reading articles here from time to time, but the overwhelming stench of cramming an article full of refutation such that every single point has a detailed rebuke is simply ad-nasuem. It makes a joke out of this entire site. This article is another example (of thousands) of why Wikipedia is an unreliable source of bias.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 ( talk • contribs) 07:09, 25 April 2007
This article violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight. Undue weight states that "Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. For example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority. " People who hawk this article misapply this point to the ID article. This is fallacy because ID, a minority view *IS* the topic of the article. If the topic of this article were Evolution, then only would ID be granted a very limited space. But because the very topic of the article is in itself the pseudo-science, undue weight is not violated if the majority of the article presents ID without refutation. The hawks who guard this article have it backwards. They feel that unless refutation exceed the claims of ID, then undue weight is violated. This reasoning would only apply if a pseudoscience were presented on a page whose topic was established science. Note that the actual wiki article Flat Earth has...by far....less refutation than ID. Why? Because if the TOPIC of the article is Flat Earth, then undue weight cannot be violated since the topic itself IS the pseudoscience. You will see this on numerous pseudoscience articles. Refutation should never outweigh the topic. This ID article actually contains more text that is refuting than text that presents. To claim this is NPOV is a joke. Please make 2 articles: ID and refutations of ID. The article as it is now is blatantly biased and in violation of the spirit of wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 ( talk • contribs) 07:13, 25 April 2007
Good comparison - Aquatic ape hypothesis - not supporting either as taking a better example. just providing an article that qualifies as contemporary bunk science.-- ZayZayEM 13:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
As I see it, there's four options?
As mentioned in the article, a main strategy of ID proponents to change the definition of a scientific theory. I believe it is significant and worthy of note that, under oath, Behe admitted that astrology fits this new definition of a scientific theory. [2]
Q = Lawyer, A = Behe
Q Now, you claim that intelligent design is a scientific theory.
A Yes.
Q But when you call it a scientific theory, you're not defining that term the same way that the National Academy of Sciences does.
A Yes, that's correct.
[...]
Q And using your definition, intelligent design is a scientific theory, correct?
A Yes.
Q Under that same definition astrology is a scientific theory under your definition, correct?
A Under my definition, a scientific theory is a proposed explanation which focuses or points to physical, observable data and logical inferences. There are many things throughout the history of science which we now think to be incorrect which nonetheless would fit that -- which would fit that definition. Yes, astrology is in fact one, and so is the ether theory of the propagation of light, and many other -- many other theories as well.
Xerxesnine 15:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
This is yet another illustration of how restrained this article is in light of the many relevant and verified facts involved. Seeking NPOV has been a tough gig on this article, as many participants will I think be willing to attest. Currently the article mentions only that "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with 'a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.'[14]" I personally have no preferences at the moment whether the article about "intelligent design" should be more specific about this particular issue. ... Kenosis 16:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)