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Agreed. The word theory in the use of everyday language is on par and associated with the discussions about god and the world and each one`s personal interpretation of some spiritual texts or meanings. Hardly anyone outside the scientific community and apparently some scientists, as one can clearly see for instance in I-Designers, don`t know the current concensus on what is concisdered a scientific theory either. However i must point out that i don`t feel to good about the use of the word concept either. Usually a scientific concept is associated with application that is often even exceeding the theoretical stage. That`s my take on it however.
Slicky
09:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I put this up to discuss reverts, deletions etc:
Introduction: "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[3]" - that is redundant and not qualitative in any way. The sentence already states that all are affiliated with the Discovery instiute and then quotes the self declared and self portrayed ideas and assements?!! That is just stupid, regardless of whoever contributed that and this someones ideals. This has no place not even in the article, because it doesn`t make any qualitative contribution to the article. SCIENCE IS ABOUT PEER REVIEW and not self declared nobel laureates. May i invite you all to read about crack pot theories: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html Slicky 17:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not what you think, but it is Yet Another Complaint About The Summary. Here's the blurb "Its leading proponents". the bolded word bothers me. How can we objectively determine who the leading proponents are? i kan reed 18:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Can we get a consensus about whether Raelism should be mentioned in the see also section? We regularly get anons adding it. JoshuaZ 19:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
It states that ID is a concept, but really doesn`t justify to the definition of the term, and I`ll quote here WP "A concept is an abstract idea or a mental symbol, typically associated with a corresponding representation in language or symbology, that denotes all of the objects in a given category or class of entities, interactions, phenomena, or relationships between them. Concepts are abstract in that they omit the differences of the things in their extension, treating them as if they were identical. They are universal in that they apply equally to every thing in their extension. Concepts are also the basic elements of propositions, much the same way a word is the basic semantic element of a sentence."
ID is a religious movement, although not centered around cristianism, as it is caughgt up by various islamic fundamentalists as well, (logically it is way cheaper energetically speaking to hang on a moving train and just push yourself a little bit forward then to get a whole new train running from zero to.... - but that`s just my take). There are no atheists or anti-theists who identify themselves with ID, moreover ID doesn`t suffice the term concept in any way. Wherefore i will change it to religious movement for now, please change it to anything more suitable, except concept. Religion is not a concept either. Slicky 12:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC) I worded it as spiritual, initially i wanted to write "spiritual/religious" but was hesitant as some ID ppl may disapprove since they are just spiritual but not in any mainstream religion. Also ".....are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own" is in principal the scientific definition of spiritualism. Slicky 12:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
ID is science at least in the terminology and the use of scientific principles, but alters all of science and does not PROPOSE AN ALTERNATIVE THEORY!!! Please inform yourself first. Rather it proposes not even hypothesis in fields that have excellent models, for decades - so excellent in acordance with nature`s presentation that they became promoted to scientific fact - a process that takes several decades. ID would actually be listened to, science there certainly are also spiritual scientists out there, if the would propose their CONCEPT in fields where lack of a decent theories or experimentation is blatant. But in todays world that really is the case in the unifiction theories e.g. string theory is considered a PROTOSCIENCE even though by the mere concept of the scientific DOGMA it is unfalsifiable, so it would be unscientific. However it does actually contribute a lot to the fields of mathematics for now and also opens the viewpoints of physics. No serious scientists would consider string theory pseudoscience even though it is unscientific - a POV which itself is arguable. You have no sufficient understanding of current science, as otherwise you could not be seriously saying that ID proposes anything new. Those pack of idiots ultimately made use of imagery, software and exerimentations that all involved quantum mechanics in order to even get to a point where one could isolate and acquire data of a bacterial flagellum but ultimately started of the point where they took a abstract book made for students that viewed the flagellum in a mechnical portrait so it is easier to imagine it. It would be way harder to imagine all this in fluid, thermodynamic instabilities, tunneling and lots and lots of formulae. Science has ever science been worked out on different layers, just as Newtionian laws of motion are just as valid as they represent another simplified layer. I am not making this up, Behe and the other pack of sheep proudly told all people in the world in a dozen of documentaries how ID came about, one of which was BBC`s Horizon. They showed the mechanical outline in a students book of the bacterial flagellum and took this more or less as the concept from which they derived a design, which was undeniable but it came out of an 3D studio max model and in fact there was a designer behind it all, who created such a symetric and good to learn abstract of the bacterial flagellum but it was one of blood and flesh and a mediocre wage hired by the books publisher. All of this is pretty impressive unless you are tought better and more fundamental and actually not see a supernatural designer but be thankful that the author of the book tried to simplify the nature of the bacterial flagellum in model so that it is easier for students to grasp, but WITH awareness that this does not give insight to the bacterial flagellum. In the end mendeljev`s periodic table came about in the same manner: he tried to find ways to simplify the graps of chemical elements for his students. Nowadays the properties of the elements are understood via quantum mechanics. No one was crazy enough to propose an alternative supernatural god figure behind the table of elements, prolly because it is so fundamentally entangled throughout any education that it wouldn`t be worth the effort, in consideration to the predictable outcome. In contrary, molecular biology is something only few have a fundamental concept of, whilst at the same time society has constantly made aware of DNA viruses and so forth without being able to glue all those things together. It is the ideal time to come forth and give society a model that not only connects the scientific terms such as DNA, virus,gene, bacterium, a.s.o. in something that is simplistic in every way but also in fact connects it all with their various scientific believes. This is why ID also gets some updraft from various islamic fundamentalists, and many other fundamentalists religions, because their commonality is supernaturalism. Slicky 09:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The intro should mention Irreducible complexity and Specified complexity as those two are the cornerstones of the ID scientific movement. The validity of these concepts is not in question here. The great amount of attention that is given to these two concepts by the ID community is reason enough for their place in the introduction. Their mention should flow nicely after the last sentance of the first paragraph which states that ID is considered a better alternative than evolution.-- Roland Deschain 00:13, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with mentioning the names of those 2 key concepts in the intro. The need not be explained there, but it would benefit the reader to have the links in the first paragraph. We can spare the room for this. -- Uncle Ed 14:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
They're not necessary to the intro; they add nothing that is crucial to know about. Literally months of previous discussion and compromise went into crafting the intro, and this issue was one discussed and for good reasons it was settled that the concepts would be defined, not described in the intro. Should we also mention the supporting concepts for evolution in the intro as well? It's a slippery slope once we start adding supporting concepts... FeloniousMonk 14:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
On a totally different note, are you sure that SC and IC are cornerstones of ID? I thought that the cornerstones of ID is the idea that naturalism isn't appropriate in biology. Without it, IC and SC, if true (which I don't think they are) leads only to "reject the null" (Darwinian evolution). They don't say anything new. It's only with the redefinition of science to include the supernatural that ID has a leg to stand on (even if it's a termite-eaten wooden leg that can barely support the weight of the coat of varnish over it). Guettarda 15:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
My point, obviously poorly made, was that we need a source before we are going to call anything the cornerstone of ID. And saying "read their books" is actually OR unless Behe or Dembski said that explicitly (in which case it is "Behe considers X to be the cornerstone of ID..."). What we need is an appropriate secondary source, a scholar who studies ID as a movement or philosophy - someone like Pennock or Forrest. In my opinion, anyway. Guettarda 16:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Looking through that long conversation, I was generally shocked by most of the claims Bob made. But I do think there was one point he made which is worth considering. The biggest response to his major issue with the article was that his concept of "intelligent design" was flawed. Now, ordinarily, I would agree with this. However, the stated definition in the first paragraph is thus:
This is the definition he was using. This definition is qualified with the second sentence:
Everybody jumped on Bob's back because he wasn't using that as the definition, but, as written, the article seems to be saying that the leading proponents of the concept of intelligent design define it in that specific, smaller way. Understand that I agree with everybody that "Intelligent Design" should be identified as a pseudoscientific concept being perpetuated by the Discovery Institute. However, as the article is written, "intelligent design" would be much more open ended than anybody seems to think it is. As a potential solution, I would propose:
I don't think this is the correct solution, but I hope it will get people to come up with the correct one. ThatGuamGuy 22:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)sean
The intro quotes the Discovery Institute's longstanding definition. This was agreed to be what would be put forward in the opening paragraph after long debate among advocates, opponents, and apparently neutral parties involved in the WP article. Any other definition would be meaningless here, because were ID not part of a broad socio-political agenda put forward by the Discovery Institute and parts of the "religious right" (especially in the United States), the article would be nothing more than a philosophical/theological curiosity with about two or three interested editors and virtually no interest by anyone else. It was the push to impose it upon the school systems in the US as a form of science that got all the interest, because once this maneuver was made, virtually everyone had a warrant to parse the proponents' assertions for accuracy. This article properly summarizes what the stir has been all about. ... Kenosis 23:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says:
Shouldn't this be disprove? AFAIK you can only disprove (or confirm) a theory, not prove one, so this would be true for all theories, and not related to falsifiability. Coffee2theorems 21:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It's too early to change the article in response yet, but those with an interest in ID might like to follow this link to an article in yesterday's Guardian on the Holy See's possibly changing relationship with evolution. Cheers, -- Plumbago 11:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
A lot of this has to do with the exact meaning of the phrases "acceptance of evolution" or "acceptance of evolutionary theory". As I pointed out last year, only 16% of Americans (for example) "accept evolution" if that means "new species came into being with out God directing the process". But this number more than triples if "accept evolution" means "evolution was the way God created all the new species".
The reason we are all in such a big dispute (RFC + RFarb) on this, all centers on whether Wikipedia should or should not make this distinction clearly. -- Uncle Ed 19:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This thread's a bit stale, but last week's issue of Science had a small note on this topic. Apparently ID never even came up during a lecture on evolution delivered to the Pope by an Austrian academic, but the Pope did ask some "very good questions at the end". The note went on to add that Cardinal Schönborn, the chief supporter of ID in the Vatican, appeared to be distancing himself from it. Anyway, just wanted to close a thread I started. Cheers, -- Plumbago 14:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I see to have screwed up the citation tags...what the heck just happened? Guettarda 19:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
My problem with the "junk science" reference in the intro is that Orr quote is not really a reliable source for the contention. He makes no claim to have surveyed the scientific community; it's just a polemical comment. Contrast that with the well-documented support for the "pseudo-science" label. Putting well-supported and poorly supported assertions into the same sentence gives an impression that the article is "throwing in the kitchen sink" in its opposition to ID, which is obviously not what it should be doing.-- CJGB (Chris) 20:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Junk Science (and Intelligent Design) looks promising, but the Amazon reviews focus on other aspects of the book so early days yet...... dave souza, talk 17:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I will ask you to note my entry under "Teleological argument" discussion entitled Non-theistic teleological argument. That says a lot of what I would like to get at here.
Almost all of the anti-ID comments seem to either show how possible evolution is, or state the obvious that science does not cover the supernatural. Both of these are not fair to the ID movement.
Intelligent Design does not come against natural selection or random mutations in the sense of saying that such things do not occur or are not mainly responsible for the diversity of the species. Intelligent design does say that some observable evidence can be better explained if we think that it came into being to serve a certain purpose, rather than merely being the result of prior causes. Many anti-evolution arguments have nothing to do really with intelligent design, and many pro-evolution arguments fit in perfectly fine with the idea that anatomy (structure) and physiology (function) are related.
When one says that undirected natural causes do not seem to explain certain phenomena, it is a false dichotomy to say that only directed supernatural causes remain. We are overlooking the idea of directed natural causes. Two sources I will cite are the articles "The Trilobite:Enigma of Complexity, A Case for Intelligent Design" and "15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense". The first article is by Drs. Arthur V. Chadwick and Robert F. DeHaan, and ends by talking about two approaches to intelligent design, the first of which places ID "squarely in the natural order", and which renders moot all counterarguments to ID which are based on ID implying the supernatural. Once we view ID as something under the umbrella of natural science (instead of supernatural), the whole debate changes radically. Their article is found in Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith, Dec. 2000, 233-241, and can also be found through a quick Google search. The second article is found in Scientific American, July 2002, by John Rennie. It can also be found through a quick Google search. Near the end of the article, Rennie writes, "It is wrong to insinuate that the field of explanations consists only of random processes or designing intelligences. ... simple, undirected processes can yield extraordinarily complex patterns. Some of the complexity seen in organisms may therefore emerge through natural phenomena that we as yet barely understand. But that is far different from saying that the complexity could not have arisen naturally." Although Rennie says "undirected processes", there is plenty of room for such things to be natural directed processes, or for some phenomena in biology to be designed to accomplish some naturalistic end purpose such as survival or reproduction.
It is an intelligent design hypothesis to state that the same mutation which is triggered by a pesticide in a mosquito, also causes the mosquito to become more resistant to that pesticide. This is so because the mutation could be easily thought of as designed to help the mosquito withstand the pesticide, and it is not simply a random mutation which could happen at any time in a billion-year history; it is a mutation which happens at a particular point in the genetic code, and at a particular time which is precisely after the pesticide is introduced, and which has not only happened one time in one mosquito but to several lines of mosquitoes exposed to the pesticide. To see a link where the environment causes a biological change which specifically helps the organism or species to survive in that environment is to see that there is a reason for the change to take place, as opposed to indifferent, meaningless changes which the environment only has an effect on after the fact.
These lines of thinking are outside of the mainstream ID proponents usual kinds of arguments, but they have all said that ID is like a "big tent" where theists and atheists can all come together. I am talking about examples of non-theistic ID which keep ID in the natural order instead of supernatural speculations and implications. You will hear more of this in the future, and Wikipedia should give a fair treatment to naturalistic ID inside of the article. It's not all about deities and aliens; there could be teleological reasons for biological changes within the natural order, just as we accept teleological reasons for human psychology and still call it a naturalistic, non-religious science. (i.e. - We believe that humans do things to accomplish an end result, and not merely based on a philosophy of determinism where we are driven by our genes to make any and every decision.) To think that things happen in nature for a reason - and I mean reasons such as to aid in survival - is a legitimate part of scientific inquiry not limited to theology and philosophy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.19.245.163 ( talk • contribs)
I removed Ed's new section. While it may be worth considering adding such a section, his source was a LTE from an Iowa newspaper by a person who apparently has no expertise of ID. I hope I am missing something, because it looks to me like Ed is just inserting random nonsense into the article. Guettarda 17:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the template Ed added to the talk page for the reason cited in the edit summary, and because we already make that point at the begining of the page. •Jim62sch• 21:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
The Overview currently states; "Intelligent design is presented as an alternative to natural explanations for evolution." ID commonly accepts microevolution and is thus not "an alternative to it". The primary focus for ID is to examine if evidence exists for intelligent causation, not to be an alternative to evolution. To correct the inaccurate inferences, propose stating:
The mathematical modeling is to address Darwin's statement:
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
Thus ID's focus on modeling empirical evidence to evaluat what can form under the laws of nature, and by contrast what could not have by chemical laws and probabilty theory within the known age of the universe. DLH 20:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
DLH 17:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
In 1937, Darwinian geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky called the former "microevolution" and the latter "macroevolution," and he acknowledged that the extrapolation from one to the other was an "assumption."
DLH 02:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Overview continues: "This stands in opposition to conventional biological science, which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world through observed physical processes such as mutation and natural selection." This is a false dichotomy, hiding the key difference of the assumption of exclusively natural causation. Empirical evidence is not solely accessible to conventional science and not ID. Propose the following to correct these errors:
If there were a designer and that designer were using the physical laws of the universe rather than "miracles", the designer's actions and products would be observable, and the actions would appear to be the physical laws of the universe. And anyone believing in said designer would be a Deist. To cite someone on /. The ways of gods are mysteriously indistinguishable from chance. ... dave souza, talk 22:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
To clarify your objection, expand the statement to:
While this was an interesting conversation it had nothing to do with the ID article. I've archived it. •Jim62sch• 12:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The quote cited for "all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute" says "almost all of them are"--check the quote. You have to be carefull with universal qualifiers, the person cited was, and so should wikipedia. Brentt 04:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The opening paragraph states that "all" of the leading proponents of ID are from the Discovery Institute. Please change "all" to "many" as there are other vocal organizations who promote ID. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.128.182 ( talk • contribs) 18:01, 7 September 2006 (comment moved from Notes to editors)
Deleted: "Though unrelated to the current use of the term" as false. The quotation gives the same usage as modern ID. i.e., that information and complexity in nature has no objective basis in the laws of nature. DLH 21:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
At least break this sentence into two with separate references.
It does not appear to add to the discussion. DLH 21:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Patrick Edward Dove, (1856) under the heading “Intelligent Design” discusses in relation to intelligence and infers a designer.<ref>[http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC18266918&id=VYRLq_L4YkkC&pg=PA476&dq=%22Intelligent+design%22&as_brr=1 ''The Theory of Human Progression, and Natural Probability of a Reign of Justice''] , Sanborn & Carter, pp 473-479</ref>
"Let a designer stand for an intelligence who is possessed of power, and who intentionaly adapts means to an end. Design therefore will stand for intentional adaptation. . . . the terms .. . are used ligitimately in physical science. An when, on the other hand, we find in nature the adaptation of means to an end, we infer design and a designer, because the only circumstances within our experience in which we can trace the origination of adaptation are those in which human mind is implicated."
While he goes on to other issues, he does mention design, intelligence, intelligent designer, intelligent design in the context of arguments relating to the physical sciences. That has alot more applicability than the 1847 citation that has no reference to present usage. DLH 22:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Dove, Patrick DLH 00:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
(This appears to be the same 1850 version but author missing. Other publications are provided for (Dove, Patrick Edward) DLH 23:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The phrase "intelligent design" occured in Scientific American (1847) (unrelated to current use). Patrick Edward Dove (1850,1856) discussed intelligence, design, intelligent designer, mind, and intelligent agent, “as used legitimately in the physical sciences”, under the heading “Intelligence-Intelligent Design.”
At the British Association for the Advancement of Science's 1873 annual meeting, Paleyite botanist George James Allman stated:
Dove renders an extremely interesting theological argument on pp476-478, which is a more detailed version of the argument made by Allman in the blockquote currently in the ID article. May I suggest the following:
No physical hypothesis founded on any indisputable fact has yet explained the origin of the primordial protoplasm, and, above all, of its marvellous properties, which render evolution possible—in heredity and in adaptability, for these properties are the cause and not the effect of evolution. For the cause of this cause we have sought in vain among the physical forces which surround us, until we are at last compelled to rest upon an independent volition, a far-seeing intelligent design. [3]
This approach keeps it simple and straightforward, because after all the arguing that will potentially occur on this talk page, it really comes down to another reference to the teleological argument, just as in the cite to the Encyclopedia of Philosophy. All in all, a very nice find, DLH. My compliments on your research... Kenosis 01:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
DLH, why don't you just put it in in keeping with the current format for that section--I gave one way of doing it just above which I speculate would be consistent with existing consenses about the basic structure of the article. Then perhaps proceed to put up a summary of Dove's points on this talk page, arguing the similarities with intelligent design in the modern form that has generated so much controversy today. The editors can argue it on its merits, and perhaps see if it rightly should be made to stand out from the other uses of the term in that section that are unrelated to the current use of "intelligent design", perhaps with a brief statement of whatever its similarities are. By my quick reading of Dove, though, it's classic mid-19th century natural theology (concurrent with Darwin too, so it's really interesting). But it's similarities to intelligent design today are really the same teleological slants that ID advocates like to throw in with their various arguments. Again, the real scuff, as I reiterated just above, is not over the teleological argument or over natural theology, but over the attempt to pass it off as a form of science. Recall also that science today has a completely different meaning to 21st century western culture.
But let's please argue this on the merits before doing anything radical. All the editors deserve their say about it. ... Kenosis 03:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears that "Unrelated" should refer to the 1847 reference, not to the Allman article. Thus, my edit to separate into separate sentences:
DLH 02:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)The phrase "intelligent design" occured in Scientific American (1847) (unrelated to current use).
Per your comments, I propose to change: “as used legitimately in the physical sciences” to
. That is a more removed statement without the author's statement of "legitimate". DLH 02:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)in the context of mathematics and physical sciences.
The phrase "intelligent design" occured in Scientific American (1847) (unrelated to current use). In The Theory of Human Progression etc. pp 476-479, Patrick Edward Dove, (1850, 1856) under the heading “Intelligent Design,” discussed intelligence, design and mind, in the context of physical sciences, and inferred a designer. [4] [5] [6] Intelligent Design is also used in an address to the 1873 annual meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science by Paleyite botanist George James Allman:
No physical hypothesis founded on any indisputable fact has yet explained the origin of the primordial protoplasm, and, above all, of its marvellous properties, which render evolution possible—in heredity and in adaptability, for these properties are the cause and not the effect of evolution. For the cause of this cause we have sought in vain among the physical forces which surround us, until we are at last compelled to rest upon an independent volition, a far-seeing intelligent design. [7]
I've removed this material just placed, and am putting it here for further discussion. This stuff has nothing to do with the Paulos example, which is an illustration that applies irrespective of the number of decimal places one adds to a number. Dembski's speculated threshold for "specified complexity" and the speculated "universal probability bound" is already discussed farther up in the article. ... Kenosis 01:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
If "improbable vs impossible" is to be explored here, it has to be relevant to the maximum probability in the universe over all time. Recommend moving this section to the Universal probability bound section and including these contrasting estimates there. DLH 02:11, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Universal probability bound summarises estimates of the maximum possible combinations of the universe over all time, or the maximum number of logical operations over all time. It you have other citations to estimates of the maximum number of chance permutations over all time according to the known laws of physics, please provide them. Using inverse Plank time appears to be rather generous compared to using actual chemical reaction rates. Otherwise we summarize what exists and give examples relating to those estimates to help the reader understand. DLH 20:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand there can be reasonable disagreement whether the section on improbable vs. impossible events belongs as a subsection of the section on "Argument from ignorance". Confusing this argument with the idea of a universal probability bound is, however, exactly Paulos' point. People often say things like "that couldn't happen by chance", when in fact, they do not realize that highly improbable events happen all the time. Dembski is, of course, essentially saying that "well, at some point it can't be by chance", while his critics are saying "Dembski, your assertion is totally arbitrary, can't be tested, and is definitely not science, but just your own theological speculation." But either way, at the current stage of the article's development, the basic thrust of this longstanding section should not be completely removed or relocated without a clear consensus about it. ... Kenosis 02:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Long quote by Paulos on a trivial example appears POV. A serious article needs to address the issue Dembski raises of when does the probability become so small that it is not scientifically rational as you pointed out. Thus, there is a need to give examples of what appears to be greater than that example, and compare actual estimates of probability of abiogensis with that boundary. Otherwise it appears to be a POV coverup. DLH 14:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
ad hominem attack. Please stick to facts. 71.120.35.49 01:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Ad hom on whom? And they's be's da fax. •Jim62sch• 01:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
See above. In addition, your assertion is flawed as the odds of winning the powerball 12 times in a row are not dependent on the outcome of the previous powerball drawings, whereas Dembski's "math" exhibits dependency on previous outcomes. Try again. •Jim62sch• 00:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Putting Wikipedia On Notice About Their Biased Anti-ID Intelligent Design Entries -- nyenyec ☎ 03:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I see that I see DLH deleted this entire discussion. I've restored it, as the Discovery Institute declaring war on this article is certainly relevant, particularly in relation to the actions of ID promoters editing this article. It is also Wikipedia's policy that editors do not delete the comments of others except for personal attacks and revealed personal information. FeloniousMonk 15:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Soeone should go into the FSM article and whine about this there too. "It's such a one-sided article, so FSM must be real!" Great logic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.8.249.75 ( talk • contribs) 16:26, 7 September 2006
The following statement lacks support:
"Scientists almost unanimously have responded that this argument cannot be tested and is not scientifically productive." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert O'Brien ( talk • contribs) 06:35, 8 September 2006
I'm not going to go through and read all of the comments here. I'll just ask a simple question: is it very clear in this article that the Intelligent design nonsense is limited to the United States. Even the Catholic Church over here in Italy seems, for the most part, to find it bizare and dangerous. It prefers the notoion that science deals with the meterial world and religion with the spritual. This is the so-called "theistic evolution" view. It isvery important to make it very cear that this ID things is excldsuive to the US and that no on in Europe (or other parts of the world that I know of) takes it seriosuly. This would make it clear how small and insginficant a movement this really is and what its' true motivations and orgigns are. There are no scientiecs or philosopghers in Europe who take this stuff seriously. There are very few in the the US. If you oput all that toegether, it becomes clear that the amount of attention given to this thing on Wikiepdia is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion to what it deserves.-- Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Lacatosias, Jim and Kenosis are all correct; it's simply a matter of degree. ID has followers in other Western countries, though only tiny minorities hold the view. A read of the Discovery Institute's Media Complaints Department, Evolutionnews.org, shows that the Discovery Institute's Propaganda & Misinformation Export Division is putting in overtime to correct this imbalance, with DI crony Mustafa Akyol working furiously in Turkey, where resistance to creationism is low. FeloniousMonk 16:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
A visual map of the international range of interest can be seen at:
-- nyenyec ☎ 16:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
What would it take to get this article to Featured Article? Regards, Ben Aveling 07:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not too worried about uninformed trolls - any argument they make on the day that is transparently bad-faith/POV will be discounted. But what things are there that well-informed trolls could use as an issue? For eg, the article is quite long, could that be used as an issue? Regards, Ben Aveling 02:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a Capstone article - it serves as an introduction to the series on Intelligent design.
It should provide a summary of the topic, without going into great detail on any particular aspect of the topic which is covered in the foundation articles.
Summary of problems. Please add, amend and strikeout as you see fit.
I support the proposal to change the box order to common sense ID first, then creationism second. DLH 03:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Ben, back the truck up. No one agreed to any of this, which would be a prerequisite for actions this sweeping. In addition, you have made changes that are clearly going against consensus. I'm requesting that you hold up until everyone has a chance to weigh in. I realise that your intentions are good, but you should go through the archives (painful though that is) to see why a number of these ideas were shot down in the past. •Jim62sch• 09:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Should we have a section on theistic realism? Should we mention Santorum? Regards, Ben Aveling 08:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The article is already very close to FA standards as it is. The problem is that there is a significant minority of pro-ID editors who will come out the woodwork to scuttle any candidacy by making bad faith objections, as seen last time.
WP:NPOV requires that on topics "where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant published points of view are presented" and "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." Looking over past objections vs. the editing history of the article at that time, Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Intelligent_design, what is seen is several editors who had attempted to turn this article into a one-sided article representing the single viewpoint of ID promoters, and a number of editors who never participated, all objecting because the article presents both sides of the topic. This illustrates how those not dedicated to NPOV but to a particular POV will always try to derail any FA status for this article. I'm afraid until a method is adopted to properly weigh and deal with bad faith or just clueless objections, hot button topics like ID will always be vulnerable to partisan activism. FeloniousMonk 13:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Discussion on FA is now taking place here: /FA_attempt_discussion_2006. FeloniousMonk 22:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The upcoming issue (October 2006) of Nature Reviews Microbiology has an article on the viewpoints of irreducible complexity (and ID's stance in science in general). In a very unusual style, the article has many references to the Dover trial, rather than simply being a paper explaining why IC is wrong. The issue isn't in print yet, so I can't provide a reference. Here is the abstract from the paper (From The Origin of Species to the origin of bacterial flagella):
-- Roland Deschain 04:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
And this article, 13 days before it is in print, has already been quote mined by the DI [6]. The link goes to the respone of the article's author to DI's quote mine.-- Roland Deschain 04:41, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
For your analysis and criticism of Intelligent Design in their published papers of great interest, eliminating of course all reference of religion or the Bible, you can refer to: Available archives on CD at www.creationresearch.org , and online archives at www.answersingenesis.org. Some articles are very convincing from these creationists PhD's. Of course they would hardly be published in "Nature" or "Science" magazines, as some are quite revealing of what evolutionists do to cover up other evidence that doesn't comply with Evolution and natural selection. GeorgeFThomson 13:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a typo in the text: "theorises" should be "theories"
I am not a member so will a member please fix this if you have the opportunity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.127.234.210 ( talk • contribs) 23:27, 13 September 2006
(Section "Irreducible complexity") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.2.129 ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 14 September 2006
Translation: Administrator(s), can you please unprotect this article so as to just change the misspelling of "theories" in the section on "Irreducible complexity" (which was introduced here)? ... Kenosis 05:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Does this article need to be fully protected at the moment? Might semi-protect be enough? Regards, Ben Aveling 09:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Important counter-points were clipped due to the elitist "original research" cloak. The big bang rebuttal is so obvious that it does not need a research paper. It is like asking for formal research to prove that 2 + 2 = 4. The clipped rebuttals are in quotes below:
Perhaps a topic called Intelligent Design controversy should be created such that self-standing arguments can be presented without fear of the "original research" reeper. Wiki readers have the right to hear all known arguments. If you want to keep them off the "main page", fine, but at least lets find a place to pin them so that they can be heard. -- Tablizer 05:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Tablizer, please read WP:NOR carefully and note that it is policy. If these arguments are so well known then it should be possible to cite a reliable source, taking care to ensure direct relevance. It you want your own ideas to be heard, TalkOrigins is one venue. ... dave souza, talk 07:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
One cannot reproduce the original big bang, but much of the theory which describes it can and has been tested, and there are sources out there that can be found. I'm not aware of any theory supporting ID that can and has been tested in the same way? Regards, Ben Aveling 08:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC) PS. If you want accademic literature on "2 + 2 = 4", it exists, it's called Set Theory and it's taught in third year pure maths.
I've reverted "necessitate a designer" to "implies a designer". Clearly, there are complex systems that are not designed. The argument, as I understand it, is that a complex system implies a designed system and a designed system necessitates a designer. So a complex system implies but does not necessitate a designer. Just how one decides which complex systems are designed, and which just happen to be complex, I have no idea. Regards, Ben Aveling 07:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The DI "fellow" Paul Nelson is answering questions from Dagbladet readers this friday, at [7]. Might be a good source of quotes. Perhaps editors of this page might be interested in asking some pointed questions?
English should be fine. -- Nnp 11:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I just saw a reversion in the article by Jim62sch that I don't agree with. He removed the images that I had added, changes to reference #70, and title of references section.
Firstly the images: I feel the these images should be present in the article. The images give an overview of the article, without going in details. Most casual readers first browse through the images to find what the article is about, and if develop interest in the topic, proceed to read more. The images I used provided relevant information about the topic being talked about. For example, a clock showing complicated machinery to elucidate the basic argument in favor of ID.
Secondly, he reverted the correction to reference #70, that I don't agree with. Just look how that reference looks in the article. Probably that was a collateral damage caused by mass reversion, but has not been restored. Since I personally follow the 1RR, I request some other editor to review it.
Thirdly, the change of "Notes and references" to "References". As i can see, the "Reference" section contains many notes in addition to references. Ex. #11, #19, #25, etc. So I think it more appropriate to change it back to "Notes and references".
I request other editors to please discuss these changes. Regards, — Ambuj Saxena ( talk) 15:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
•Jim62sch• 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The pictures which have been chosen, however, I believe, detract from understanding the subject. - Psychohistorian 14:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The following section had been added: it cites no sources and seems well off topic:
So, kind soul that I am, I've moved it here. ... dave souza, talk 10:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
For your analysis and criticism of Intelligent Design in their published papers of great interest, eliminating of course all reference of religion or the Bible, you can refer to: Available archives on CD at www.creationresearch.org , and online archives at www.answersingenesis.org. Some articles are very convincing from these creationists PhD's. Of course they would hardly be published in "Nature" or "Science" magazines, as some are quite revealing of what evolutionists do to cover up other evidence that doesn't comply with Evolution and natural selection. GeorgeFThomson 14:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
1. Assuming that intelligent design would be factually true (and I am not claiming it is), it seems to me that intelligent design would be a "complement" to evolution, not a replacement. But this article seems to claim that intelligent design and evolution are strictly "competing" one against each other. What did I miss ?
2. If intelligent design is merely a "competitor" to evolution, how does it differ in any significant way from creationism? It seems to be merely a new word for an old concept.
3. Are you (a general "you" here) trying to say that intelligent design is factually false by depicting it as "unscientific" and "pseudoscience"? If so, why not say it directly? If not, why not specifically state that it is "unscientific" strictly in the sense that it is not a knowledge acquired by the method known as "science"?
Contributors who know more about this might want to edit the article to make it clearer.
Asking questions 18:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The opening sentence of the section on origins of the concept has read for about the last year:"Philosophers have long argued that the complexity of nature indicates the existence of a purposeful natural or supernatural designer/creator." This sentence, in an article about a concept that has been described, inter alia, as "creationism in a cheap tuxedo", a concept whose proponents attempt to frame it as leading-edge science in an ideological socio-political gambit for power in the United States, is a very reasonable and wholly accurate summary of the section that follows. The section proceeds to briefly state the history of the teleological argument, the category of argument to which intelligent design belongs.
Therefore, I'm going to replace it until and unless a consensus can be achieved which supports the removal of this longstanding opening sentence for the section. Good regards all. ... Kenosis 15:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, I should point out two other things. (1) This discussion can be found in the archives several times in the last year. See, for example, the very lengthy discussion involving User:Silence from earlier this year. (2) The words "philosophers have long argued ..." are not weasel words, but basic history of philosophy. For philosophers from the pre-Socratics onward, the question was generally not whether an inherent order existed, but what was it composed of, where did it come from, what was the "underlying" order, if any, that manifested in physical "reality" (not clarified until after Kant wrote in the latter part of the 18th Century), etc. An "underlying" or at least "inherent" order of some kind has always been pretty much taken as granted in the philosophical arguments. That's a very significant part of what the concept of "logos" meant for the Greek philosophers taken as a whole. It was a very rich and multifaceted concept in its day. ... Kenosis 16:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Hah! Probably right about the Western bias (not ethnocentrism). And right about the other slants that didn't come through the Western flow. The history of the teleological argument is a distinctly Western argument, relying as is does on rationalist theological argumentation. Your edit of the opening sentence to read "debated whether" rather than "argued that" is completely reasonable in my estimation and I regard it as consistent with the previous consensus about that section-- but I'm just one editor. ... Kenosis 17:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Whatever; great; now that there are a lot of fast-and-loose terms being thrown around, most of which are tripping over each other:
(1) I didn't mention Pythagoras; someone else did (I assume User:Psychohistorian was talking to me because (s)he used the term "you" in reference to the idea of the "western flow").
(2) I was not referring to "rationalist" as it refers to Spinoza, Leibniz, Descartes, etc., nor even to the more-difficult-to-pin-down distinction between Plato's and Aristotle's approach (Plato being differentiated from the last one-third of Aristotle's career here). Rather, I was characterizing the Western tradition of philosophical speculation generally, as differentiated from a wholly different set of flows in the East, which is what I intended to refer to when I used the words "...the other slants that didn't come through the Western flow." There are probably 50 histories of Western philosophy that've been on the market in the last century-and-a-half. There are only a few histories of Eastern philosophy, because it's not one clearly discernable flow, or at least not one that's easy to get a handle on; typically these are divided into Indian, Chinese, etc., and those are, shall we say, not typically well defined within their respective categories (though Wing-Tsit Chan does a fine job on an immense task with his sampling of Chinese philosophy).
(3) When I refer to "rationalist theological argumentation" I am referring to one of a number of threads, specifically the historical theological argumentation that involves, among other speculations, the teleological argument.
Now, if the statement made by Psychohistorian is intended to infer that, say "empiricist" philosophy does not involve rationalist theological speculation, I would refer to David Hume and George Berkeley, who engaged in their ample share of this kind of speculation themselves. Point being, any philosopher who engaged in the teleological argument is engaging in "rationalist theological argumentation."
That said, the teleological argument itself is an identifiable flow through Western philosophy, give or take some issues such as that just brought up involving whether the "logos" qualifies as an early version of the argument, rather than starting with, say, Plato, or say, Augustine, or Aquinas. Better to just give the reader a quick history right back to the earliest we know of, I would think. Of course, as the anon user pointed out, there are Eastern versions of the teleological argument too; and if the editors decide they wish to write a quick paragraph identifying for the reader some of the Eastern versions, I am sure this can be done without too much of a terrible headache. Thanks for the incentive to clarify somewhat what I was joking with the anon user about. ... Kenosis 20:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I don't have time to learn the proper forms & syntax for doing this. However, I think this article could be improved by rearranging things to take care of a problem, as I see it, that I think can be understood from this comment that I just posted to somebody else's blog:
quoting myself" "... I appreciated the contribution made by Larry's insistence on his basic logical argument. I was surprised, then, by what I found in his post supporting Luskin.
Here is his lead example of bias
For example, the article says of ID, "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute . . . . ."(emphasis added) The corresponding NPOV ["Neutral Point of View"] statement would be, "many of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute" -- for example, Ann Coulter and Cardinal Christophe Schonborn are leading ID proponents but are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute.
We can all agree that an encyclopedia article must be factually accurate. So beyond straight matters of fact, how does "neutrality" or "point of view" enter into this? Are there "leading proponents" of the ID movement who are not affiliated with DI? I guess that depends on who is considered to be a "leading proponent" of the movement.
I would sympathize with any ID enthusiast who'd complain that it would be a vicious, ugly slur against the movement if its critics were describing Ann Coulter as one of the movement's "leading proponents." But it is not the Wikipedia article that makes this characterization; it is Larry himself.
And as for Cardinal Schonborn, he is absolutely not a proponent--leading or otherwise--of the ID movement. The Wikipedia article could be improved by clarifying that this applies to the ID Movement, not to the broad concept as defined at the top of the article. (There is a separate part of the article on the movement itself). Perhaps most people who believe in Divine Creation would endorse the broad definition offered for the concept given for "ID," although they would not accept claims made by the ID Movement about how ID relates to science, and the consequences that they claim to be entailed by that. " (end of quoting myself)
I wanted to share this even though I don't have the time now to learn the proper way of doing this. If somebody would want to raise this more succinctly and in proper form, please feel free to replace everything I've put here with a better statement of the issue.
I do think the article could be improved, without loss, by taking care of this; but since I'm new I don't want to do the edit myself, but see if others agree & make the change.—Preceding unsigned comment added by James A Whitson ( talk • contribs)
I propose we change the following sentence in one of three ways, "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2]"
Perhaps the consensus will change given adequate evidence to indicate some contrary fact that is also verifiable, in keeping with WP:NPOV#Undue_weight of course. Thus far, no one has been named who reasonably meets the characterization of "leading proponent" who is not affiliated with the DI. Now, if the argument being presented here is that Ann Coulter is a "leading proponent", and therefore the language should be changed, by all means proceed to make the case and see if there's some agreement on a possible change of the language to "most" or "many" of the leading proponents being affiliated with the DI. Personally I don't see it, but by all means go ahead.... Kenosis 04:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, users dave souza, Guettarda, Jim62sch, FeloniousMonk, ScienceApologist, KillerChihuahua, Ec5618, JoshuaZ, Roland Deschain, and myself all support the current language, and I'm sure I've missed a good few others that have also backed the current wording verbatim. Would anyone I've just mentioned please correct me if I'm wrong about that, or if I've missed too many other editors that were involved in the consensus process on this issue?... Kenosis 04:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Bagginator, this discussion has been going on for well over two years. In that entire time, no leading proponent was identified that did not turn out upon further research to be affiliated with the Discovery Institute. That remains true irrespective of the time at which the current language was placed, which was after the Kitzmiller decision was published and there was a verified source for the current language in the article. ... Kenosis 22:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Bagginatory, while it is admirable you are reading the archives, you may wish to read what consensus is. It is not counting people who agree with you over time. If you want to change the statement, then give an example of a leading proponent who is not affiliated with the Discovery Institute. We've had two suggestions for this: 1) George W. Bush (roundly rejected) and 2) John H. Calvert (and the consensus seemed to be that this person wasn't a leading proponent and may actually be affiliated with DI inasmuch he might be considered a leadning proponent). -- ScienceApologist 10:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I vote for option #0 - current version, because all the proposed changes are worse than the current version.
Are there any sources that question the statement as it stands? If so, let's see them. If not, this is all a violation of WP:NOR. Guettarda 14:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Bagginator listed John Umana as a possible leading proponent of intelligent design. I would dispute this characterization. Umana was a proponent of creationism who kept all his arguments and did a global replace of the term "creationism" with the term "intelligent design" per the neocreationist program. THIS IS FALSE. UMANA IS A PROPONENT OF COMMON DESCENT, PROVED BY THE CONVERGENCE OF THE SCIENCES, WHO DISPUTES DARWINIAN NATURAL SELECTION AS AN EXPLANATION OF ORIGIN OF SPECIES OR EMERGENCE OF LIFE ON EARTH 3.9 Ga. HE HAS PRESENTED A NEW THEORY OF BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION, TIED TO A THEORY OF BIG BANG COSMOLOGY. HE IS A DANFORTH FELLOW AND MEMBER OF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT BAR, WHO RECEIVED HIS PH.D. AND J.D. FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN. LEGAL TIMES HAS CORRECTLY REFERRED TO HIM (MAY 2006) AS A LEADING PROPONENT OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN. HE IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH DISCOVERY OR ANY ORGANIZATION, AND CALLS FOR MORE AND BETTER SCIENCE, NOT RELIANCE ON 19TH CENTURY CONJECTURE. So I'm still looking for a proponent that is both leading and unaffiliated with the Discovery Institute. Once that is found, I would be more than happy to discuss changing the present wording. -- ScienceApologist 15:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Concern from a different angle: It is not obvious that all proponents of ID consider it to be a scientific theory. No such evidence exists for at least one major proponent I can think of, philosopher William Lane Craig. Unless this can be established for every "leading" proponent of ID (and this, by the way, is only a standard I'm borrowing from those who wish to keep the sentence under dispute), it is a baseless assertion. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 18:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
As for the question of whether there are any leading proponents of ID who are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute: The philosopher I listed above, William Lane Craig, is obviously affiliated with the Discovery Institute (he's a fellow), but a more notable philosopher, Alvin Plantinga is less obviously so (there's a short article by him on the Institute's site [13] and a few other laudatory mentions of his name elsewhere). I'm not sure what the standard is to determine whether or not someone is affiliated, but I thought I'd throw this into the discussion. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 18:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Not only that, most (but not all) theologians today have distanced themselves from this argument even as theology, because those theologians recognize the "God of the gaps" trap that a number of previous theologians have fallen prey to. But this issue is quite secondary if not completely irrelevant to the wording of the introductory paragraph of the intelligent design article. ... Kenosis 20:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to thank Bagginator for the great amount of work he's put into this. As to his three proposals, one and two look unacceptable. The first proposal again is tricky because it ignores a number of very significant proponents who are affiliated with the DI but are not scientists. Proposal 2 is likewise extremely unacceptable because 'many' has yet to be sourced and we fundamentally cannot alter a sourced reference because editors believe it to be untrue since this would be original research. However, if you could find leading proponents who are not affiliated with the DI then this discussion would become irrelevent since there would be sourced evidence to change it. The third point is accurate, but has worrying connotations. To put it bluntly, by suggesting it is her comment, it argues implicitly that other people do not have this view. Therefore, the onus must be on us to first find sources that dispute her point of view before altering the phrase. Unless contradictory sources can be found and verified, this proposal amounts to a rewrite of Wikipedia in general - inserting 'x claims' and 'y says' before literally every source. I doubt this is necessary and if you think it is, it would be more sensible to pursue this at a Wikipedia policy level rather than on a particular article page. As such, I'd suggest that the way forward here is to attempt to locate sources that contradict the sentence under dispute. -- Davril2020 18:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
One more argument against asserting that all (or even most) "leading" ID proponents are affiliated with the Discovery Institute: The Discovery Institute primarily operates in United States. While their people may dominate the news coverage of the dispute in the United States, this is not the case elsewhere. Outside the United States, prominent proponents of ID (proponents who are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute) include former Australian Minister for Education, Science and Training Brendan Nelson, University of Warwick sociologist and philosopher Steve Fuller (he actually also testified in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District), and Andy McIntosh, a professor of thermodynamics at the University of Leeds and head of the British advocacy group, "Truth in Science" [14]. McIntosh's group made headlines most recently when they published a piece in Britain advocating ID [15]. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 22:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
In pointing out that two from the US have also been asserted to be leading proponents not affiliated with the Discovery Insititute, I am by no means trying to be flippant, as Simoes just expressed concern about (although I reserve that right). I was attempting to identify those who are, or have been, asserted by one or more Wikipedia users to be "leading proponents". To Simoes' list of non-US commentators, I added two in the US who previously have been asserted on this talk page to be "leading proponents". I think it's time to debate this again in light of all the evidence, and either reaffirm or change the consensus about this particular issue. Incidentally, please also see my response to Simoes' comment a bit farther above in this section, as it is somewhat relevant to this exchange of views. ... Kenosis 00:19, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Bagginator stopped by my talk page and asked for my opinion, so here it is:
I think ScienceApologist makes very good points regarding all 3 proposed changes. The text as it stands is accurate. I'm against adding scientific to the wording, as anyone who is backing ID is disregarding science, whether they care to admit it or not. #2 would indeed be a degradation of the article quality, and #3 makes it sound like a less credible statement by her and not the fact that it is. -- Nnp 23:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I did not list John Umana, the Legal Times says of John Umana, "As an aside, Umana is also a leading proponent of intelligent design," It doesn't matter what my opinion is of John Umana, it matters that he is reported by the media as being a "leading proponent" of intelligent design. Therefore making the sentence in question incorrect. I would list, on the other hand all of the following as leading proponents of intelligent design that the Discovery Institute says are, "not associated with Discovery", Steve Fuller (Testified in Kitzmiller), Mark DeForrest, David DePew, Eugene Garver and Chandra Wickramasinghe. Bagginator 01:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the very basic history of this issue as I see it presently:
Three years ago Johnson and Dembski had been identified as leading proponents, although the words "leading proponents" were not used in the article at that time.
Two years ago By the end of 2004 ( [16]), the Center for Science and Culture had been properly identified in the article as a subsidiary of the Discovery Instutute and was no longer ever under dispute by the editors.
One year ago: Throughout all this, no one showed up at the article or on the talk page with any verified references to leaders of the ID movement who were not affiliated with the DI.
On January 10. 2006, roughly a month after the Kitzmiller decision was published, FeloniousMonk adds the language "leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute"
More recently, several have been asserted to also be "leading proponents", including the various persons mentioned thus far in this section. So I'm proposing to use this opportunity to make a list of them and debate the issues on the verifiable merits.... Kenosis 01:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
It's silly to keep it as it is. Being both in the introduction, and having a phrasing that is open to interpretation, it should be explicit about who said that, in addition to being cited. An example of how obviously wrong this is: George Bush could be considered a partial proponent of ID and because of his position and authority, could be called a leading proponent, though he is not associated with the DI. i kan reed 19:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I've opened a new section here since we seem to have drifted away from the purpose of the immediately preceding section. It's clear that there are some editors here who believe that there are now proponents of intelligent design who are not affiliated with the DI. I would concur with Kenosis that this is an appropriate time to review the evidence for and against. Consequently I would suggest that if anyone wishes to propose a new candidate as a leading proponent of intelligent design but who is not affiliated with the DI, that they post the name here, and details of why (with supporting sources) they qualify as a 'leading' proponent. -- Davril2020 01:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Sources for any of this? What credible sources have called them "leading proponents" - sources written by people who would be in a position to judge? Digging through lists of people and trying to come up with our own definition of "leading proponents" amounts to "original research". Guettarda 03:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
And now, instead of slinging insults and attacking arguments I didn't even make, will you please re-read what I had to say? Guettarda 06:30, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Guettarda asks a question, "Sources for any of this?" I very clearly linked my source. Bagginator 05:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Nice to see Brendan getting some recognition at last. He's not widely respected in Oz, having sold us to the American pharmaceutical firms during the negotiations on the Free Trade agreement. But I don't think a politician, even one with a medical background, can be be regarded as an authority on ID or any other branch of science. Or religion either, for that matter. Mind you, if he prescribed me a pill for hayfever or a law on pharmaceutical benefits, I'd listen with respect. The others...same problem as with Brendan, really: are they authorities in the field of biological science, life sciences, etc etc? Have they relevant expertise? A philosopher of religion, a social epistemologist (whatever that is), a professor of thermodynamics...no, I don't feel confidence in their credentials to speak on the origin of life or of species. As Jim says somewhere up above, these people are supporters of ID, not proponents. But by all means, let's have more suggestions.
PiCo
06:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
So, even assuming there are any other notable "leading proponents", it would appear the introductory section of the WP article appears at a minimum to need to give credit to the Discovery Institute and the CSC as the nexus and creator of the ID movement. ... Kenosis 07:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
We appear to be getting off track. Ive identified a leading proponent of Intelligent Design. We are not looking for "authorities" on Intelligent Design, by the way. If we want to look for "authorities" on Intelligent Design we should change the sentence to read "authorities" instead of "leading proponents". If you want to accept anyone who is an "authority" on Intelligent Design as a "leading proponent" please indicate such and of course we can change the sentence and begin our search for "authorities" on Intelligent Design instead of "leading proponents". But for now let's stick to calling them "leading proponents" as "authorities" is not what the article said and unless you have a source, is not what was meant in the trial by Barbara Forrest. Bagginator 09:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC) Looking at This paper in the Ohio State Law Journal identifies Gerald Schroeder also as a "leading proponent" of Intelligent Design. Or should I be looking for reliable sources that call them "authorities"? Have we decided which words we are looking for? Bagginator 10:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
What constitutes a leading proponent is already defined in previous discussions, now archived. By any meaningful, reasonable definition, a leading proponent of ID is one who has published the most influential books on the topic. That would be those whose work is recognized/cited by others as being crucial to understanding the topic. Those who are recognized ID's leading proponents are widely accepted as Behe, Dembski, Johnson, Meyer, Wells, Gonzalez and Pearcey. Gerald Schroeder has never published on the topic even close to the degree of those listed here, so rightly he has never been considered a leading proponent. FeloniousMonk 18:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems we've got a lot of talk already past this but I figured I should keep adding leading proponents that I discover. So far our list contains John Umana,
Alvin Plantinga,
Brendan Nelson,
Steve Fuller, Andy McIntosh,
Gerald Schroeder and now i'd like to add two more, that Barbara Forrest in her Testimony in Kitzmiller calls leaders of intelligent design, Edward Sisson and Jed Macosko. I believe if we are going to accept Barbara Forrests testimony in one part to indentify leading proponents, we should accept her testimony in all parts. The following is the
testimony I refer to.
And if you go and visit the magazine she is talking about, and the interview in particular, you will see that Edward Sisson and Jed Macosko are two of those who were interviewed. Bagginator 05:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me again, but this discussion has completely lost perspective. Folks are now arguing whether to use the term "leaders" rather than "leading proponents". Since some of the various participants are picking nits about precision of language, we should perhaps note that intelligent design per se doesn't have leaders, it is the movement that has leaders, and the concept that has leading proponents. So we'd rather mangle the language, or refer to the "movement" in the very first paragraph of the intro? It sounds, to say the least, very un-parsimonious for the introductory paragraph. The paragraph already summarizes the verified reality of the concept of intelligent design quite succinctly and accurately, despite protestations about the words "all of the" and the words "leading proponents". It accurately and verifiably summarizes what it is, and where it came from.
How about maybe developing a flow-chart illustration for possible inclusion in the article (consistent with WP:VER of course), like an evolutionary tree starting in the late-1980's showing who's involved in naming, defining, disseminating and promoting the concept of intelligent design. Then proceed to tag them according to DI affiliation. What you'll find is that it was not until the turn of the millennium that these other players in the controversy began showing up conspicuously in the debate bacause the idea of getting a wedge into the public school system was copacetic with their particular agendas. These are people who got on board with something they each thought they could "hang their hat on", so to speak, each for their own reasons. So, if the counter-argument is, for instance, that George W. Bush or Ann Coulter or the Australian Education Minister have become leading proponents, they can at least be put into proper perspective by the reader of the article. At least a flow chart would show how far down the hierarchy of development and dissemination these persons actually are. ... Kenosis 17:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, this list is getting quite long. By the way, these are not my opinion but that of reliable sources. Avant News from November 18 2005 [30]Metcalf Poppikoch a leading proponent of intelligent design. Bagginator 01:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought it would be instructive at this point to update the list. So far, those who are considered leading proponents of Intelligent Design who are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute are as follows:
Jim, you've been trolled. You're arguing with a guy who cited fake news...and doesn't even blink when Kenosis points it out. Laugh it off. Bagginator, good one. You had me going for a while there. Guettarda 12:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Anyone who has a desire feel free to check the sources, as Kenosis did. I provided a link for that very purpose. You will see that we have many examples here of leading proponents of Intelligent Design that are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute. I encourage you to check the sources and if you find errors to report them in a civil tone, not a mocking tone. Bagginator 13:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC) Also, Jim makes a very good point above. Pretty soon I believe I shall have access to Lexis Nexis and will be able to do a lot more research on this issue. How does one confirm a source through the use of Lexis Nexis? Bagginator 13:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
By the last count in this section, Bagginator had narrowed down the list of possible candidates for leading-proponents-of-intelligent-design-who-are-not-affiliated-with-the-Discovery-Institute to: John Umana, Brendan Nelson, Steve Fuller, Andy McIntosh, Gerald Schroeder, Edward Sisson, Norris Gravlox, Jody Wheeler, Jack Cashill, Mat Staver. Fuller is an epistemologist whose views about the demarcation problem were useful to the defendants in Kitzmiller v. Dover, and not a leading advocate of intelligent design per se. Sisson is affiliated by merit of funding connections and a de facto association with the DI (part of the $3.4 million in CSC grant money). Other than Nelson, the rest are at most minor influences in the intelligent design debate or controversy within the last several years, and had no leading role in the development and dissemination of intelligent design. That leaves Brendan Nelson, the Australian Education Minister who latched onto the idea in 2005, proposing the teaching of intelligent design in Australian schools. Is Nelson a leading proponent sufficient to negate the statement "it's leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute, say that intelligent design is a scientific theory, ..."? ... Kenosis 14:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The first line of the article defines ID as the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." I'm uneasy with the part that comes after the comma, characterising natural selection as an 'undirected process', which is inaccurate and tendentious (I've been longing to use that word). Should the article be assisting the Id people to mischaracterise natural selection? How about cutting the quote off at the comma? PiCo 06:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is it important to stress that all (or almost all, or most) leading ID proponents are affiliated with the Discovery Institute? What are the implications of such an affiliation?
If someone is making an argument that because of this affiliation, a conclusion follows THEN we should spell out the conclusion. Perhaps it is the argument that:
I note that this conclusion is held by nearly all the 'contributors' who are resisting Bagginator's proposed changes. It seems that this faction all want Wikipedia to endorse a POV. However, Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral on controversial matters.
So it would be better for us to dig a little further and provide sources pertaining to advocacy of viewpoints such as (1) that ID itself has a pro-Creationist bias and (2) that ID has an evangelistic purpose.
I daresay the dispute over whether #1 and/or #2 is true, lies at the heart of the controversy over Intelligent Design. -- Uncle Ed 16:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Since those with a pro-ID slant have resurrected the issue again that there may be leading ID proponents who are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute, I'll issue my same challenge one more time: Name one leading ID proponent one whose work is widely recognized and who is not affiliated with the Discovery Institute. Just one. FeloniousMonk 18:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Change the title of the article to "Intelligent design (Discovery Institute)." Even though the DI's own definition is rather problematic if they're aiming to exclude every popular creation myth out there, stating that this article is about DI's actual usage (as opposed to definition), which is obviously a reiterated version of the Abrahamic creation account, would settle things in my mind. The base intelligent design article would simply be a survey of all creation accounts signicant numbers of people still believe in today. Thoughts? Simões ( talk/ contribs) 19:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- Amatulic 20:30, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."
the theory that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by a designing intelligence [33]
The Discovery Institute is saying that ID (specifically their version of it) is scientific. This is distinct from it being part of the definition. "Intelligent design" does indeed refer to all creation accounts. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 20:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
So we have three different concepts
All of which have articles, therefore I suggest this could focus on the Discovery institutes specific views, AS IT CURRENTLY DOES ANYWAY, only it could be more specific about doing so! And have a disambiguation notices pointing to all three above articles! So this was my little proposal, what do you thing? :) -- Vesal 20:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Um, no. Creating a "Intelligent design (Discovery Institute)" article would create a POV fork, as there is no alternate intelligent design being promoted, as has been explained here previously. FeloniousMonk 20:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
This issue of historicity of the term and of the concept intelligent design is already well covered in the article. The term would have gone virtually or completely unnoticed in the context of the teleological argument had it not been picked up, given a shine, and used as a handle by the DI affiliates in the late-1980s and 90s. ... Kenosis 21:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The only issue as I see it from above is that this is a dispute about who "leads" in promoting intelligent design and who follows. If a random ID-believer on the street think that their pastor, a lawyer in Kansas, the president of the United States, or the cardinal from Austria whose comments DI lauded is the person who "led" them to intelligent design, I think we may be hardpressed to verifiably support or contradict this opinion. It is entirely conceivable that someone was led to their belief in intelligent design by someone other than the DI leaders. We could say that the DI-affiliates "leads your leader", but this defies verifiability. How are we going to verifiably show that every conceivable "leader" is "led" by a DI-affiliate?
I think that this weird issue makes the current wording slightly weasely. I absolutely agree with the intent and stated explanations of the wording but I disagree with its phrasing and think it is too open to inaccurate interpretation. Unfortunately, I have been unable to come up with an alternative way of precisely indicating what is being illustrated by this single sentence.
The association with DI is absolutely unmistakable (to the point of being uncanny) when evaluating the evidence that ID advocates present. This is precisely the sense in which all the leading proponents are affiliated with DI. However, the term "leading" itself is (sadly) an equivocal and somewhat weasely adjective. Let's brainstorm about alternative wordings that can get across the same meaning without being subject to such handwringing.
-- ScienceApologist 21:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The article starts with a very bad definition: Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." I take definition very seriously, so for me the next sentence reads "The leading proponents of the view that certain features of the universe are best explained by an intelligent cause are all affiliated with the Discovery Institute". That is clearly false! Many honest creationists also believe design to be the best explanation, but they admit it is an irrational, faith-based explanation, or that science has not yet uncovered the evidence, whatever. No scientist has a problem with that... So am I just annoying you guys with "pro-ID propaganda" or do you think I might have point, because I actually came here to help and for the record, I'm very anti-ID. -- Vesal 21:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Thus far, the only concise way the editors have found for accurately representing the role of the DI in the packaging and dissemination of ID is exactly as the article is currently written. Perhaps something like the following in the second sentence of the intro? "Intelligent design was formulated and disseminated by members and affiliates of the Discovery Institute." might seem more accurate and less weasel-worded at first glance. But upon closer analysis, the intro is already accurate: First the Discovery Institute's definition is used as the basis for introducing the concept, with a citation. The DI and affiliates are the ones that packaged and disseminated this modern formulation of the teleological argument to the public, so they are the authoritative source for this brief definition, and that's verified through almost an endless number of sources, one of which is cited in that particular footnote. The second sentence then proceeds to build on the first. Given that the definition is that of the DI, this sentence proceeds to say, verifiably and accurately, that "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[3]" I suspect this is as good as it gets and as accurate as it gets for a subject as complex as this one is. The article then proceeds to explain it, quite informatively in my opinion. ... Kenosis 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Replace the vague (and perhaps also weasel) word "leading" with "internationally prominent." This will exclude those who are more identified as leading the ID charge in certain nations or regions (and, as ScienceApologist pointed out, also arguably "leading proponents"). Behe, Johnson, and Dembski are all internationally well-published and affiliated with the Institute. It is less vague to describe them, in particular, as "internationally prominent" than "leading." And if anyone considers the two to be synonymous, then they shouldn't have a problem with a swap. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 23:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Search on "John Umana"+intelligent+design -- 79 hits.
Search on "Michael Behe"+intelligent+design -- 193,000 hits.
You decide.
•Jim62sch•
00:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Kenosis, how exactly can a publication "misuse" an opinion? Bagginator 01:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Speaking for just myself, I might sign off on the language "It's leading proponents, virtually all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute, say that intelligent design is a scientific theory ...", except that it would most assuredly be attacked as WP:Weasel, because, of course, in the introductory paragraph of the article on Intelligent design, it is necessary to be precise in our language on a subject which aims to include theological concepts as part of the public school science curricula in accordance with the promulgation of a "theistic methodology of science", especially in the United States (and perhaps elsewhere of course, though the US is where the controversy was/is primarily created and located). ... But I digress somewhat. ... Kenosis 04:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
My only other major concern is the length of this article and maybe the controversy part should be a separate article, although it is a very crucial part. I also don't like the term controversy, because controversy is immediately used as in "teach the controversy". "Pseudo-scientific nature of Intelligent Design" or "Conflict with the Scientific Community" I think are more precise, or "Intelligent Design and Science", which could also be the title of a separate article summarized here. Well anyway, good night! -- Vesal 01:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
ID claims to be science, but the scientific community's response to ID has been nothing but critical. NPOV policy calls for presenting all significant viewpoints on disputed topics. WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience tells us "...the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." Splitting off the scientific community's reception and opinion of concept that claims to be science into a separate article would create a POV fork, and POV forks are forbidden by policy. FeloniousMonk 19:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
"Intelligent design presents a critique of.." 'Critique' seems like way too strong a word as ID proponents have no scientific basis and no meaningful response. How about "Intelligent design proponents are of the opinion that.."?
I'd say it's virtually a paraphrase. ID proponents do have an extensive critique of evolutionary theory and while most of us here would agree that it is groundless and based upon error, I don't think that in itself disqualifies it from being a critique. -- Davril2020 16:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This discussion about "leading proponents" makes no sense. We don't create knowledge, we report it. Without an agreement as to what constitutes a "leading proponent", there's nowhere to go. We have an authoritative source, which has not been challenged by any other authoritative sources. If no one has challenged Forrest's definition statement, then we have no grounds change it. What makes a leading proponent? Would that be the top 10% of active proponents? The top 5%? The people who had written more than one book or 5 scholarly articles? The people who were involved in a full time basis for >6 months, or a half-time basis for more than 2 years? What sets a leading proponent apart from others? If we want to have this discussion at all, we need to define the sample space. If we don't have an agreed-upon definition (which, of course, is supported by external usage, as per the idea of NOR), then we can only rely on authoritative sources - academics who have devoted the professional career to studying ID and the people behind it (Forrest, Pennock, etc.) and people who can speak on behalf of the movement. Maybe a journalist who did an in-depth article looking at this issue. Beyond that, we can't go. Wikipedia policy doesn't allow it.
Guettarda
17:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Typo. Fixed. Guettarda 17:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, we can go a little further if need be, such as to a request for comment. And I'm not confident that those who aren't already heavily involved with this article and intransigently against modifying the sentence in any way are going to agree with you, FM, et al. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 17:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
The passage "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute" is accurate. No one has yet provided evidence that there are proponents who are more notable than Dembski, Behe, Johnson, Meyer, et al. Until notable sources per WP:V and WP:RS are provided that outweigh all the evidence that all leading proponents are affiliated with the Discovery Institute is submitted, this is a dead issue. Continually raising dead issues is considered tendentious argumentation, and it is disruptive to the article and project and highly frowned upon. The project provides a number of processes for dealing with tendentious and disruptive contributors and cranks, and there is a limit to what long time contributors need to put with. FeloniousMonk 18:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Dude, the following couple of sentences in the article are grounded in the same proof as the content you just deleted. It makes me wonder if you even know what 'transcendental' and 'immanent' mean. - Psychohistorian 18:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
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Agreed. The word theory in the use of everyday language is on par and associated with the discussions about god and the world and each one`s personal interpretation of some spiritual texts or meanings. Hardly anyone outside the scientific community and apparently some scientists, as one can clearly see for instance in I-Designers, don`t know the current concensus on what is concisdered a scientific theory either. However i must point out that i don`t feel to good about the use of the word concept either. Usually a scientific concept is associated with application that is often even exceeding the theoretical stage. That`s my take on it however.
Slicky
09:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I put this up to discuss reverts, deletions etc:
Introduction: "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[3]" - that is redundant and not qualitative in any way. The sentence already states that all are affiliated with the Discovery instiute and then quotes the self declared and self portrayed ideas and assements?!! That is just stupid, regardless of whoever contributed that and this someones ideals. This has no place not even in the article, because it doesn`t make any qualitative contribution to the article. SCIENCE IS ABOUT PEER REVIEW and not self declared nobel laureates. May i invite you all to read about crack pot theories: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html Slicky 17:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not what you think, but it is Yet Another Complaint About The Summary. Here's the blurb "Its leading proponents". the bolded word bothers me. How can we objectively determine who the leading proponents are? i kan reed 18:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Can we get a consensus about whether Raelism should be mentioned in the see also section? We regularly get anons adding it. JoshuaZ 19:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
It states that ID is a concept, but really doesn`t justify to the definition of the term, and I`ll quote here WP "A concept is an abstract idea or a mental symbol, typically associated with a corresponding representation in language or symbology, that denotes all of the objects in a given category or class of entities, interactions, phenomena, or relationships between them. Concepts are abstract in that they omit the differences of the things in their extension, treating them as if they were identical. They are universal in that they apply equally to every thing in their extension. Concepts are also the basic elements of propositions, much the same way a word is the basic semantic element of a sentence."
ID is a religious movement, although not centered around cristianism, as it is caughgt up by various islamic fundamentalists as well, (logically it is way cheaper energetically speaking to hang on a moving train and just push yourself a little bit forward then to get a whole new train running from zero to.... - but that`s just my take). There are no atheists or anti-theists who identify themselves with ID, moreover ID doesn`t suffice the term concept in any way. Wherefore i will change it to religious movement for now, please change it to anything more suitable, except concept. Religion is not a concept either. Slicky 12:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC) I worded it as spiritual, initially i wanted to write "spiritual/religious" but was hesitant as some ID ppl may disapprove since they are just spiritual but not in any mainstream religion. Also ".....are not science because they cannot be tested by experiment, do not generate any predictions, and propose no new hypotheses of their own" is in principal the scientific definition of spiritualism. Slicky 12:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
ID is science at least in the terminology and the use of scientific principles, but alters all of science and does not PROPOSE AN ALTERNATIVE THEORY!!! Please inform yourself first. Rather it proposes not even hypothesis in fields that have excellent models, for decades - so excellent in acordance with nature`s presentation that they became promoted to scientific fact - a process that takes several decades. ID would actually be listened to, science there certainly are also spiritual scientists out there, if the would propose their CONCEPT in fields where lack of a decent theories or experimentation is blatant. But in todays world that really is the case in the unifiction theories e.g. string theory is considered a PROTOSCIENCE even though by the mere concept of the scientific DOGMA it is unfalsifiable, so it would be unscientific. However it does actually contribute a lot to the fields of mathematics for now and also opens the viewpoints of physics. No serious scientists would consider string theory pseudoscience even though it is unscientific - a POV which itself is arguable. You have no sufficient understanding of current science, as otherwise you could not be seriously saying that ID proposes anything new. Those pack of idiots ultimately made use of imagery, software and exerimentations that all involved quantum mechanics in order to even get to a point where one could isolate and acquire data of a bacterial flagellum but ultimately started of the point where they took a abstract book made for students that viewed the flagellum in a mechnical portrait so it is easier to imagine it. It would be way harder to imagine all this in fluid, thermodynamic instabilities, tunneling and lots and lots of formulae. Science has ever science been worked out on different layers, just as Newtionian laws of motion are just as valid as they represent another simplified layer. I am not making this up, Behe and the other pack of sheep proudly told all people in the world in a dozen of documentaries how ID came about, one of which was BBC`s Horizon. They showed the mechanical outline in a students book of the bacterial flagellum and took this more or less as the concept from which they derived a design, which was undeniable but it came out of an 3D studio max model and in fact there was a designer behind it all, who created such a symetric and good to learn abstract of the bacterial flagellum but it was one of blood and flesh and a mediocre wage hired by the books publisher. All of this is pretty impressive unless you are tought better and more fundamental and actually not see a supernatural designer but be thankful that the author of the book tried to simplify the nature of the bacterial flagellum in model so that it is easier for students to grasp, but WITH awareness that this does not give insight to the bacterial flagellum. In the end mendeljev`s periodic table came about in the same manner: he tried to find ways to simplify the graps of chemical elements for his students. Nowadays the properties of the elements are understood via quantum mechanics. No one was crazy enough to propose an alternative supernatural god figure behind the table of elements, prolly because it is so fundamentally entangled throughout any education that it wouldn`t be worth the effort, in consideration to the predictable outcome. In contrary, molecular biology is something only few have a fundamental concept of, whilst at the same time society has constantly made aware of DNA viruses and so forth without being able to glue all those things together. It is the ideal time to come forth and give society a model that not only connects the scientific terms such as DNA, virus,gene, bacterium, a.s.o. in something that is simplistic in every way but also in fact connects it all with their various scientific believes. This is why ID also gets some updraft from various islamic fundamentalists, and many other fundamentalists religions, because their commonality is supernaturalism. Slicky 09:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
The intro should mention Irreducible complexity and Specified complexity as those two are the cornerstones of the ID scientific movement. The validity of these concepts is not in question here. The great amount of attention that is given to these two concepts by the ID community is reason enough for their place in the introduction. Their mention should flow nicely after the last sentance of the first paragraph which states that ID is considered a better alternative than evolution.-- Roland Deschain 00:13, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with mentioning the names of those 2 key concepts in the intro. The need not be explained there, but it would benefit the reader to have the links in the first paragraph. We can spare the room for this. -- Uncle Ed 14:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
They're not necessary to the intro; they add nothing that is crucial to know about. Literally months of previous discussion and compromise went into crafting the intro, and this issue was one discussed and for good reasons it was settled that the concepts would be defined, not described in the intro. Should we also mention the supporting concepts for evolution in the intro as well? It's a slippery slope once we start adding supporting concepts... FeloniousMonk 14:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
On a totally different note, are you sure that SC and IC are cornerstones of ID? I thought that the cornerstones of ID is the idea that naturalism isn't appropriate in biology. Without it, IC and SC, if true (which I don't think they are) leads only to "reject the null" (Darwinian evolution). They don't say anything new. It's only with the redefinition of science to include the supernatural that ID has a leg to stand on (even if it's a termite-eaten wooden leg that can barely support the weight of the coat of varnish over it). Guettarda 15:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
My point, obviously poorly made, was that we need a source before we are going to call anything the cornerstone of ID. And saying "read their books" is actually OR unless Behe or Dembski said that explicitly (in which case it is "Behe considers X to be the cornerstone of ID..."). What we need is an appropriate secondary source, a scholar who studies ID as a movement or philosophy - someone like Pennock or Forrest. In my opinion, anyway. Guettarda 16:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Looking through that long conversation, I was generally shocked by most of the claims Bob made. But I do think there was one point he made which is worth considering. The biggest response to his major issue with the article was that his concept of "intelligent design" was flawed. Now, ordinarily, I would agree with this. However, the stated definition in the first paragraph is thus:
This is the definition he was using. This definition is qualified with the second sentence:
Everybody jumped on Bob's back because he wasn't using that as the definition, but, as written, the article seems to be saying that the leading proponents of the concept of intelligent design define it in that specific, smaller way. Understand that I agree with everybody that "Intelligent Design" should be identified as a pseudoscientific concept being perpetuated by the Discovery Institute. However, as the article is written, "intelligent design" would be much more open ended than anybody seems to think it is. As a potential solution, I would propose:
I don't think this is the correct solution, but I hope it will get people to come up with the correct one. ThatGuamGuy 22:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)sean
The intro quotes the Discovery Institute's longstanding definition. This was agreed to be what would be put forward in the opening paragraph after long debate among advocates, opponents, and apparently neutral parties involved in the WP article. Any other definition would be meaningless here, because were ID not part of a broad socio-political agenda put forward by the Discovery Institute and parts of the "religious right" (especially in the United States), the article would be nothing more than a philosophical/theological curiosity with about two or three interested editors and virtually no interest by anyone else. It was the push to impose it upon the school systems in the US as a form of science that got all the interest, because once this maneuver was made, virtually everyone had a warrant to parse the proponents' assertions for accuracy. This article properly summarizes what the stir has been all about. ... Kenosis 23:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
The article says:
Shouldn't this be disprove? AFAIK you can only disprove (or confirm) a theory, not prove one, so this would be true for all theories, and not related to falsifiability. Coffee2theorems 21:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It's too early to change the article in response yet, but those with an interest in ID might like to follow this link to an article in yesterday's Guardian on the Holy See's possibly changing relationship with evolution. Cheers, -- Plumbago 11:08, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
A lot of this has to do with the exact meaning of the phrases "acceptance of evolution" or "acceptance of evolutionary theory". As I pointed out last year, only 16% of Americans (for example) "accept evolution" if that means "new species came into being with out God directing the process". But this number more than triples if "accept evolution" means "evolution was the way God created all the new species".
The reason we are all in such a big dispute (RFC + RFarb) on this, all centers on whether Wikipedia should or should not make this distinction clearly. -- Uncle Ed 19:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
This thread's a bit stale, but last week's issue of Science had a small note on this topic. Apparently ID never even came up during a lecture on evolution delivered to the Pope by an Austrian academic, but the Pope did ask some "very good questions at the end". The note went on to add that Cardinal Schönborn, the chief supporter of ID in the Vatican, appeared to be distancing himself from it. Anyway, just wanted to close a thread I started. Cheers, -- Plumbago 14:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I see to have screwed up the citation tags...what the heck just happened? Guettarda 19:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
My problem with the "junk science" reference in the intro is that Orr quote is not really a reliable source for the contention. He makes no claim to have surveyed the scientific community; it's just a polemical comment. Contrast that with the well-documented support for the "pseudo-science" label. Putting well-supported and poorly supported assertions into the same sentence gives an impression that the article is "throwing in the kitchen sink" in its opposition to ID, which is obviously not what it should be doing.-- CJGB (Chris) 20:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Junk Science (and Intelligent Design) looks promising, but the Amazon reviews focus on other aspects of the book so early days yet...... dave souza, talk 17:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all, I will ask you to note my entry under "Teleological argument" discussion entitled Non-theistic teleological argument. That says a lot of what I would like to get at here.
Almost all of the anti-ID comments seem to either show how possible evolution is, or state the obvious that science does not cover the supernatural. Both of these are not fair to the ID movement.
Intelligent Design does not come against natural selection or random mutations in the sense of saying that such things do not occur or are not mainly responsible for the diversity of the species. Intelligent design does say that some observable evidence can be better explained if we think that it came into being to serve a certain purpose, rather than merely being the result of prior causes. Many anti-evolution arguments have nothing to do really with intelligent design, and many pro-evolution arguments fit in perfectly fine with the idea that anatomy (structure) and physiology (function) are related.
When one says that undirected natural causes do not seem to explain certain phenomena, it is a false dichotomy to say that only directed supernatural causes remain. We are overlooking the idea of directed natural causes. Two sources I will cite are the articles "The Trilobite:Enigma of Complexity, A Case for Intelligent Design" and "15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense". The first article is by Drs. Arthur V. Chadwick and Robert F. DeHaan, and ends by talking about two approaches to intelligent design, the first of which places ID "squarely in the natural order", and which renders moot all counterarguments to ID which are based on ID implying the supernatural. Once we view ID as something under the umbrella of natural science (instead of supernatural), the whole debate changes radically. Their article is found in Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith, Dec. 2000, 233-241, and can also be found through a quick Google search. The second article is found in Scientific American, July 2002, by John Rennie. It can also be found through a quick Google search. Near the end of the article, Rennie writes, "It is wrong to insinuate that the field of explanations consists only of random processes or designing intelligences. ... simple, undirected processes can yield extraordinarily complex patterns. Some of the complexity seen in organisms may therefore emerge through natural phenomena that we as yet barely understand. But that is far different from saying that the complexity could not have arisen naturally." Although Rennie says "undirected processes", there is plenty of room for such things to be natural directed processes, or for some phenomena in biology to be designed to accomplish some naturalistic end purpose such as survival or reproduction.
It is an intelligent design hypothesis to state that the same mutation which is triggered by a pesticide in a mosquito, also causes the mosquito to become more resistant to that pesticide. This is so because the mutation could be easily thought of as designed to help the mosquito withstand the pesticide, and it is not simply a random mutation which could happen at any time in a billion-year history; it is a mutation which happens at a particular point in the genetic code, and at a particular time which is precisely after the pesticide is introduced, and which has not only happened one time in one mosquito but to several lines of mosquitoes exposed to the pesticide. To see a link where the environment causes a biological change which specifically helps the organism or species to survive in that environment is to see that there is a reason for the change to take place, as opposed to indifferent, meaningless changes which the environment only has an effect on after the fact.
These lines of thinking are outside of the mainstream ID proponents usual kinds of arguments, but they have all said that ID is like a "big tent" where theists and atheists can all come together. I am talking about examples of non-theistic ID which keep ID in the natural order instead of supernatural speculations and implications. You will hear more of this in the future, and Wikipedia should give a fair treatment to naturalistic ID inside of the article. It's not all about deities and aliens; there could be teleological reasons for biological changes within the natural order, just as we accept teleological reasons for human psychology and still call it a naturalistic, non-religious science. (i.e. - We believe that humans do things to accomplish an end result, and not merely based on a philosophy of determinism where we are driven by our genes to make any and every decision.) To think that things happen in nature for a reason - and I mean reasons such as to aid in survival - is a legitimate part of scientific inquiry not limited to theology and philosophy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.19.245.163 ( talk • contribs)
I removed Ed's new section. While it may be worth considering adding such a section, his source was a LTE from an Iowa newspaper by a person who apparently has no expertise of ID. I hope I am missing something, because it looks to me like Ed is just inserting random nonsense into the article. Guettarda 17:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed the template Ed added to the talk page for the reason cited in the edit summary, and because we already make that point at the begining of the page. •Jim62sch• 21:00, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
The Overview currently states; "Intelligent design is presented as an alternative to natural explanations for evolution." ID commonly accepts microevolution and is thus not "an alternative to it". The primary focus for ID is to examine if evidence exists for intelligent causation, not to be an alternative to evolution. To correct the inaccurate inferences, propose stating:
The mathematical modeling is to address Darwin's statement:
"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."
Thus ID's focus on modeling empirical evidence to evaluat what can form under the laws of nature, and by contrast what could not have by chemical laws and probabilty theory within the known age of the universe. DLH 20:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
DLH 17:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
In 1937, Darwinian geneticist Theodosius Dobzhansky called the former "microevolution" and the latter "macroevolution," and he acknowledged that the extrapolation from one to the other was an "assumption."
DLH 02:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Overview continues: "This stands in opposition to conventional biological science, which relies on experimentation to explain the natural world through observed physical processes such as mutation and natural selection." This is a false dichotomy, hiding the key difference of the assumption of exclusively natural causation. Empirical evidence is not solely accessible to conventional science and not ID. Propose the following to correct these errors:
If there were a designer and that designer were using the physical laws of the universe rather than "miracles", the designer's actions and products would be observable, and the actions would appear to be the physical laws of the universe. And anyone believing in said designer would be a Deist. To cite someone on /. The ways of gods are mysteriously indistinguishable from chance. ... dave souza, talk 22:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
To clarify your objection, expand the statement to:
While this was an interesting conversation it had nothing to do with the ID article. I've archived it. •Jim62sch• 12:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The quote cited for "all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute" says "almost all of them are"--check the quote. You have to be carefull with universal qualifiers, the person cited was, and so should wikipedia. Brentt 04:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The opening paragraph states that "all" of the leading proponents of ID are from the Discovery Institute. Please change "all" to "many" as there are other vocal organizations who promote ID. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.128.182 ( talk • contribs) 18:01, 7 September 2006 (comment moved from Notes to editors)
Deleted: "Though unrelated to the current use of the term" as false. The quotation gives the same usage as modern ID. i.e., that information and complexity in nature has no objective basis in the laws of nature. DLH 21:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
At least break this sentence into two with separate references.
It does not appear to add to the discussion. DLH 21:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Patrick Edward Dove, (1856) under the heading “Intelligent Design” discusses in relation to intelligence and infers a designer.<ref>[http://books.google.com/books?vid=OCLC18266918&id=VYRLq_L4YkkC&pg=PA476&dq=%22Intelligent+design%22&as_brr=1 ''The Theory of Human Progression, and Natural Probability of a Reign of Justice''] , Sanborn & Carter, pp 473-479</ref>
"Let a designer stand for an intelligence who is possessed of power, and who intentionaly adapts means to an end. Design therefore will stand for intentional adaptation. . . . the terms .. . are used ligitimately in physical science. An when, on the other hand, we find in nature the adaptation of means to an end, we infer design and a designer, because the only circumstances within our experience in which we can trace the origination of adaptation are those in which human mind is implicated."
While he goes on to other issues, he does mention design, intelligence, intelligent designer, intelligent design in the context of arguments relating to the physical sciences. That has alot more applicability than the 1847 citation that has no reference to present usage. DLH 22:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Dove, Patrick DLH 00:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
(This appears to be the same 1850 version but author missing. Other publications are provided for (Dove, Patrick Edward) DLH 23:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The phrase "intelligent design" occured in Scientific American (1847) (unrelated to current use). Patrick Edward Dove (1850,1856) discussed intelligence, design, intelligent designer, mind, and intelligent agent, “as used legitimately in the physical sciences”, under the heading “Intelligence-Intelligent Design.”
At the British Association for the Advancement of Science's 1873 annual meeting, Paleyite botanist George James Allman stated:
Dove renders an extremely interesting theological argument on pp476-478, which is a more detailed version of the argument made by Allman in the blockquote currently in the ID article. May I suggest the following:
No physical hypothesis founded on any indisputable fact has yet explained the origin of the primordial protoplasm, and, above all, of its marvellous properties, which render evolution possible—in heredity and in adaptability, for these properties are the cause and not the effect of evolution. For the cause of this cause we have sought in vain among the physical forces which surround us, until we are at last compelled to rest upon an independent volition, a far-seeing intelligent design. [3]
This approach keeps it simple and straightforward, because after all the arguing that will potentially occur on this talk page, it really comes down to another reference to the teleological argument, just as in the cite to the Encyclopedia of Philosophy. All in all, a very nice find, DLH. My compliments on your research... Kenosis 01:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
DLH, why don't you just put it in in keeping with the current format for that section--I gave one way of doing it just above which I speculate would be consistent with existing consenses about the basic structure of the article. Then perhaps proceed to put up a summary of Dove's points on this talk page, arguing the similarities with intelligent design in the modern form that has generated so much controversy today. The editors can argue it on its merits, and perhaps see if it rightly should be made to stand out from the other uses of the term in that section that are unrelated to the current use of "intelligent design", perhaps with a brief statement of whatever its similarities are. By my quick reading of Dove, though, it's classic mid-19th century natural theology (concurrent with Darwin too, so it's really interesting). But it's similarities to intelligent design today are really the same teleological slants that ID advocates like to throw in with their various arguments. Again, the real scuff, as I reiterated just above, is not over the teleological argument or over natural theology, but over the attempt to pass it off as a form of science. Recall also that science today has a completely different meaning to 21st century western culture.
But let's please argue this on the merits before doing anything radical. All the editors deserve their say about it. ... Kenosis 03:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears that "Unrelated" should refer to the 1847 reference, not to the Allman article. Thus, my edit to separate into separate sentences:
DLH 02:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)The phrase "intelligent design" occured in Scientific American (1847) (unrelated to current use).
Per your comments, I propose to change: “as used legitimately in the physical sciences” to
. That is a more removed statement without the author's statement of "legitimate". DLH 02:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)in the context of mathematics and physical sciences.
The phrase "intelligent design" occured in Scientific American (1847) (unrelated to current use). In The Theory of Human Progression etc. pp 476-479, Patrick Edward Dove, (1850, 1856) under the heading “Intelligent Design,” discussed intelligence, design and mind, in the context of physical sciences, and inferred a designer. [4] [5] [6] Intelligent Design is also used in an address to the 1873 annual meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science by Paleyite botanist George James Allman:
No physical hypothesis founded on any indisputable fact has yet explained the origin of the primordial protoplasm, and, above all, of its marvellous properties, which render evolution possible—in heredity and in adaptability, for these properties are the cause and not the effect of evolution. For the cause of this cause we have sought in vain among the physical forces which surround us, until we are at last compelled to rest upon an independent volition, a far-seeing intelligent design. [7]
I've removed this material just placed, and am putting it here for further discussion. This stuff has nothing to do with the Paulos example, which is an illustration that applies irrespective of the number of decimal places one adds to a number. Dembski's speculated threshold for "specified complexity" and the speculated "universal probability bound" is already discussed farther up in the article. ... Kenosis 01:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
If "improbable vs impossible" is to be explored here, it has to be relevant to the maximum probability in the universe over all time. Recommend moving this section to the Universal probability bound section and including these contrasting estimates there. DLH 02:11, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Universal probability bound summarises estimates of the maximum possible combinations of the universe over all time, or the maximum number of logical operations over all time. It you have other citations to estimates of the maximum number of chance permutations over all time according to the known laws of physics, please provide them. Using inverse Plank time appears to be rather generous compared to using actual chemical reaction rates. Otherwise we summarize what exists and give examples relating to those estimates to help the reader understand. DLH 20:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I understand there can be reasonable disagreement whether the section on improbable vs. impossible events belongs as a subsection of the section on "Argument from ignorance". Confusing this argument with the idea of a universal probability bound is, however, exactly Paulos' point. People often say things like "that couldn't happen by chance", when in fact, they do not realize that highly improbable events happen all the time. Dembski is, of course, essentially saying that "well, at some point it can't be by chance", while his critics are saying "Dembski, your assertion is totally arbitrary, can't be tested, and is definitely not science, but just your own theological speculation." But either way, at the current stage of the article's development, the basic thrust of this longstanding section should not be completely removed or relocated without a clear consensus about it. ... Kenosis 02:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Long quote by Paulos on a trivial example appears POV. A serious article needs to address the issue Dembski raises of when does the probability become so small that it is not scientifically rational as you pointed out. Thus, there is a need to give examples of what appears to be greater than that example, and compare actual estimates of probability of abiogensis with that boundary. Otherwise it appears to be a POV coverup. DLH 14:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
ad hominem attack. Please stick to facts. 71.120.35.49 01:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Ad hom on whom? And they's be's da fax. •Jim62sch• 01:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
See above. In addition, your assertion is flawed as the odds of winning the powerball 12 times in a row are not dependent on the outcome of the previous powerball drawings, whereas Dembski's "math" exhibits dependency on previous outcomes. Try again. •Jim62sch• 00:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Putting Wikipedia On Notice About Their Biased Anti-ID Intelligent Design Entries -- nyenyec ☎ 03:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I see that I see DLH deleted this entire discussion. I've restored it, as the Discovery Institute declaring war on this article is certainly relevant, particularly in relation to the actions of ID promoters editing this article. It is also Wikipedia's policy that editors do not delete the comments of others except for personal attacks and revealed personal information. FeloniousMonk 15:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Soeone should go into the FSM article and whine about this there too. "It's such a one-sided article, so FSM must be real!" Great logic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.8.249.75 ( talk • contribs) 16:26, 7 September 2006
The following statement lacks support:
"Scientists almost unanimously have responded that this argument cannot be tested and is not scientifically productive." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert O'Brien ( talk • contribs) 06:35, 8 September 2006
I'm not going to go through and read all of the comments here. I'll just ask a simple question: is it very clear in this article that the Intelligent design nonsense is limited to the United States. Even the Catholic Church over here in Italy seems, for the most part, to find it bizare and dangerous. It prefers the notoion that science deals with the meterial world and religion with the spritual. This is the so-called "theistic evolution" view. It isvery important to make it very cear that this ID things is excldsuive to the US and that no on in Europe (or other parts of the world that I know of) takes it seriosuly. This would make it clear how small and insginficant a movement this really is and what its' true motivations and orgigns are. There are no scientiecs or philosopghers in Europe who take this stuff seriously. There are very few in the the US. If you oput all that toegether, it becomes clear that the amount of attention given to this thing on Wikiepdia is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion to what it deserves.-- Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Lacatosias, Jim and Kenosis are all correct; it's simply a matter of degree. ID has followers in other Western countries, though only tiny minorities hold the view. A read of the Discovery Institute's Media Complaints Department, Evolutionnews.org, shows that the Discovery Institute's Propaganda & Misinformation Export Division is putting in overtime to correct this imbalance, with DI crony Mustafa Akyol working furiously in Turkey, where resistance to creationism is low. FeloniousMonk 16:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
A visual map of the international range of interest can be seen at:
-- nyenyec ☎ 16:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
What would it take to get this article to Featured Article? Regards, Ben Aveling 07:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not too worried about uninformed trolls - any argument they make on the day that is transparently bad-faith/POV will be discounted. But what things are there that well-informed trolls could use as an issue? For eg, the article is quite long, could that be used as an issue? Regards, Ben Aveling 02:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a Capstone article - it serves as an introduction to the series on Intelligent design.
It should provide a summary of the topic, without going into great detail on any particular aspect of the topic which is covered in the foundation articles.
Summary of problems. Please add, amend and strikeout as you see fit.
I support the proposal to change the box order to common sense ID first, then creationism second. DLH 03:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Ben, back the truck up. No one agreed to any of this, which would be a prerequisite for actions this sweeping. In addition, you have made changes that are clearly going against consensus. I'm requesting that you hold up until everyone has a chance to weigh in. I realise that your intentions are good, but you should go through the archives (painful though that is) to see why a number of these ideas were shot down in the past. •Jim62sch• 09:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Should we have a section on theistic realism? Should we mention Santorum? Regards, Ben Aveling 08:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The article is already very close to FA standards as it is. The problem is that there is a significant minority of pro-ID editors who will come out the woodwork to scuttle any candidacy by making bad faith objections, as seen last time.
WP:NPOV requires that on topics "where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant published points of view are presented" and "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." Looking over past objections vs. the editing history of the article at that time, Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Intelligent_design, what is seen is several editors who had attempted to turn this article into a one-sided article representing the single viewpoint of ID promoters, and a number of editors who never participated, all objecting because the article presents both sides of the topic. This illustrates how those not dedicated to NPOV but to a particular POV will always try to derail any FA status for this article. I'm afraid until a method is adopted to properly weigh and deal with bad faith or just clueless objections, hot button topics like ID will always be vulnerable to partisan activism. FeloniousMonk 13:21, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Discussion on FA is now taking place here: /FA_attempt_discussion_2006. FeloniousMonk 22:02, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
The upcoming issue (October 2006) of Nature Reviews Microbiology has an article on the viewpoints of irreducible complexity (and ID's stance in science in general). In a very unusual style, the article has many references to the Dover trial, rather than simply being a paper explaining why IC is wrong. The issue isn't in print yet, so I can't provide a reference. Here is the abstract from the paper (From The Origin of Species to the origin of bacterial flagella):
-- Roland Deschain 04:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
And this article, 13 days before it is in print, has already been quote mined by the DI [6]. The link goes to the respone of the article's author to DI's quote mine.-- Roland Deschain 04:41, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
For your analysis and criticism of Intelligent Design in their published papers of great interest, eliminating of course all reference of religion or the Bible, you can refer to: Available archives on CD at www.creationresearch.org , and online archives at www.answersingenesis.org. Some articles are very convincing from these creationists PhD's. Of course they would hardly be published in "Nature" or "Science" magazines, as some are quite revealing of what evolutionists do to cover up other evidence that doesn't comply with Evolution and natural selection. GeorgeFThomson 13:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a typo in the text: "theorises" should be "theories"
I am not a member so will a member please fix this if you have the opportunity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.127.234.210 ( talk • contribs) 23:27, 13 September 2006
(Section "Irreducible complexity") —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.2.129 ( talk • contribs) 05:33, 14 September 2006
Translation: Administrator(s), can you please unprotect this article so as to just change the misspelling of "theories" in the section on "Irreducible complexity" (which was introduced here)? ... Kenosis 05:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Does this article need to be fully protected at the moment? Might semi-protect be enough? Regards, Ben Aveling 09:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Important counter-points were clipped due to the elitist "original research" cloak. The big bang rebuttal is so obvious that it does not need a research paper. It is like asking for formal research to prove that 2 + 2 = 4. The clipped rebuttals are in quotes below:
Perhaps a topic called Intelligent Design controversy should be created such that self-standing arguments can be presented without fear of the "original research" reeper. Wiki readers have the right to hear all known arguments. If you want to keep them off the "main page", fine, but at least lets find a place to pin them so that they can be heard. -- Tablizer 05:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Tablizer, please read WP:NOR carefully and note that it is policy. If these arguments are so well known then it should be possible to cite a reliable source, taking care to ensure direct relevance. It you want your own ideas to be heard, TalkOrigins is one venue. ... dave souza, talk 07:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
One cannot reproduce the original big bang, but much of the theory which describes it can and has been tested, and there are sources out there that can be found. I'm not aware of any theory supporting ID that can and has been tested in the same way? Regards, Ben Aveling 08:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC) PS. If you want accademic literature on "2 + 2 = 4", it exists, it's called Set Theory and it's taught in third year pure maths.
I've reverted "necessitate a designer" to "implies a designer". Clearly, there are complex systems that are not designed. The argument, as I understand it, is that a complex system implies a designed system and a designed system necessitates a designer. So a complex system implies but does not necessitate a designer. Just how one decides which complex systems are designed, and which just happen to be complex, I have no idea. Regards, Ben Aveling 07:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The DI "fellow" Paul Nelson is answering questions from Dagbladet readers this friday, at [7]. Might be a good source of quotes. Perhaps editors of this page might be interested in asking some pointed questions?
English should be fine. -- Nnp 11:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I just saw a reversion in the article by Jim62sch that I don't agree with. He removed the images that I had added, changes to reference #70, and title of references section.
Firstly the images: I feel the these images should be present in the article. The images give an overview of the article, without going in details. Most casual readers first browse through the images to find what the article is about, and if develop interest in the topic, proceed to read more. The images I used provided relevant information about the topic being talked about. For example, a clock showing complicated machinery to elucidate the basic argument in favor of ID.
Secondly, he reverted the correction to reference #70, that I don't agree with. Just look how that reference looks in the article. Probably that was a collateral damage caused by mass reversion, but has not been restored. Since I personally follow the 1RR, I request some other editor to review it.
Thirdly, the change of "Notes and references" to "References". As i can see, the "Reference" section contains many notes in addition to references. Ex. #11, #19, #25, etc. So I think it more appropriate to change it back to "Notes and references".
I request other editors to please discuss these changes. Regards, — Ambuj Saxena ( talk) 15:03, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
•Jim62sch• 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The pictures which have been chosen, however, I believe, detract from understanding the subject. - Psychohistorian 14:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The following section had been added: it cites no sources and seems well off topic:
So, kind soul that I am, I've moved it here. ... dave souza, talk 10:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
For your analysis and criticism of Intelligent Design in their published papers of great interest, eliminating of course all reference of religion or the Bible, you can refer to: Available archives on CD at www.creationresearch.org , and online archives at www.answersingenesis.org. Some articles are very convincing from these creationists PhD's. Of course they would hardly be published in "Nature" or "Science" magazines, as some are quite revealing of what evolutionists do to cover up other evidence that doesn't comply with Evolution and natural selection. GeorgeFThomson 14:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
1. Assuming that intelligent design would be factually true (and I am not claiming it is), it seems to me that intelligent design would be a "complement" to evolution, not a replacement. But this article seems to claim that intelligent design and evolution are strictly "competing" one against each other. What did I miss ?
2. If intelligent design is merely a "competitor" to evolution, how does it differ in any significant way from creationism? It seems to be merely a new word for an old concept.
3. Are you (a general "you" here) trying to say that intelligent design is factually false by depicting it as "unscientific" and "pseudoscience"? If so, why not say it directly? If not, why not specifically state that it is "unscientific" strictly in the sense that it is not a knowledge acquired by the method known as "science"?
Contributors who know more about this might want to edit the article to make it clearer.
Asking questions 18:14, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
The opening sentence of the section on origins of the concept has read for about the last year:"Philosophers have long argued that the complexity of nature indicates the existence of a purposeful natural or supernatural designer/creator." This sentence, in an article about a concept that has been described, inter alia, as "creationism in a cheap tuxedo", a concept whose proponents attempt to frame it as leading-edge science in an ideological socio-political gambit for power in the United States, is a very reasonable and wholly accurate summary of the section that follows. The section proceeds to briefly state the history of the teleological argument, the category of argument to which intelligent design belongs.
Therefore, I'm going to replace it until and unless a consensus can be achieved which supports the removal of this longstanding opening sentence for the section. Good regards all. ... Kenosis 15:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Also, I should point out two other things. (1) This discussion can be found in the archives several times in the last year. See, for example, the very lengthy discussion involving User:Silence from earlier this year. (2) The words "philosophers have long argued ..." are not weasel words, but basic history of philosophy. For philosophers from the pre-Socratics onward, the question was generally not whether an inherent order existed, but what was it composed of, where did it come from, what was the "underlying" order, if any, that manifested in physical "reality" (not clarified until after Kant wrote in the latter part of the 18th Century), etc. An "underlying" or at least "inherent" order of some kind has always been pretty much taken as granted in the philosophical arguments. That's a very significant part of what the concept of "logos" meant for the Greek philosophers taken as a whole. It was a very rich and multifaceted concept in its day. ... Kenosis 16:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Hah! Probably right about the Western bias (not ethnocentrism). And right about the other slants that didn't come through the Western flow. The history of the teleological argument is a distinctly Western argument, relying as is does on rationalist theological argumentation. Your edit of the opening sentence to read "debated whether" rather than "argued that" is completely reasonable in my estimation and I regard it as consistent with the previous consensus about that section-- but I'm just one editor. ... Kenosis 17:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Whatever; great; now that there are a lot of fast-and-loose terms being thrown around, most of which are tripping over each other:
(1) I didn't mention Pythagoras; someone else did (I assume User:Psychohistorian was talking to me because (s)he used the term "you" in reference to the idea of the "western flow").
(2) I was not referring to "rationalist" as it refers to Spinoza, Leibniz, Descartes, etc., nor even to the more-difficult-to-pin-down distinction between Plato's and Aristotle's approach (Plato being differentiated from the last one-third of Aristotle's career here). Rather, I was characterizing the Western tradition of philosophical speculation generally, as differentiated from a wholly different set of flows in the East, which is what I intended to refer to when I used the words "...the other slants that didn't come through the Western flow." There are probably 50 histories of Western philosophy that've been on the market in the last century-and-a-half. There are only a few histories of Eastern philosophy, because it's not one clearly discernable flow, or at least not one that's easy to get a handle on; typically these are divided into Indian, Chinese, etc., and those are, shall we say, not typically well defined within their respective categories (though Wing-Tsit Chan does a fine job on an immense task with his sampling of Chinese philosophy).
(3) When I refer to "rationalist theological argumentation" I am referring to one of a number of threads, specifically the historical theological argumentation that involves, among other speculations, the teleological argument.
Now, if the statement made by Psychohistorian is intended to infer that, say "empiricist" philosophy does not involve rationalist theological speculation, I would refer to David Hume and George Berkeley, who engaged in their ample share of this kind of speculation themselves. Point being, any philosopher who engaged in the teleological argument is engaging in "rationalist theological argumentation."
That said, the teleological argument itself is an identifiable flow through Western philosophy, give or take some issues such as that just brought up involving whether the "logos" qualifies as an early version of the argument, rather than starting with, say, Plato, or say, Augustine, or Aquinas. Better to just give the reader a quick history right back to the earliest we know of, I would think. Of course, as the anon user pointed out, there are Eastern versions of the teleological argument too; and if the editors decide they wish to write a quick paragraph identifying for the reader some of the Eastern versions, I am sure this can be done without too much of a terrible headache. Thanks for the incentive to clarify somewhat what I was joking with the anon user about. ... Kenosis 20:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I don't have time to learn the proper forms & syntax for doing this. However, I think this article could be improved by rearranging things to take care of a problem, as I see it, that I think can be understood from this comment that I just posted to somebody else's blog:
quoting myself" "... I appreciated the contribution made by Larry's insistence on his basic logical argument. I was surprised, then, by what I found in his post supporting Luskin.
Here is his lead example of bias
For example, the article says of ID, "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute . . . . ."(emphasis added) The corresponding NPOV ["Neutral Point of View"] statement would be, "many of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute" -- for example, Ann Coulter and Cardinal Christophe Schonborn are leading ID proponents but are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute.
We can all agree that an encyclopedia article must be factually accurate. So beyond straight matters of fact, how does "neutrality" or "point of view" enter into this? Are there "leading proponents" of the ID movement who are not affiliated with DI? I guess that depends on who is considered to be a "leading proponent" of the movement.
I would sympathize with any ID enthusiast who'd complain that it would be a vicious, ugly slur against the movement if its critics were describing Ann Coulter as one of the movement's "leading proponents." But it is not the Wikipedia article that makes this characterization; it is Larry himself.
And as for Cardinal Schonborn, he is absolutely not a proponent--leading or otherwise--of the ID movement. The Wikipedia article could be improved by clarifying that this applies to the ID Movement, not to the broad concept as defined at the top of the article. (There is a separate part of the article on the movement itself). Perhaps most people who believe in Divine Creation would endorse the broad definition offered for the concept given for "ID," although they would not accept claims made by the ID Movement about how ID relates to science, and the consequences that they claim to be entailed by that. " (end of quoting myself)
I wanted to share this even though I don't have the time now to learn the proper way of doing this. If somebody would want to raise this more succinctly and in proper form, please feel free to replace everything I've put here with a better statement of the issue.
I do think the article could be improved, without loss, by taking care of this; but since I'm new I don't want to do the edit myself, but see if others agree & make the change.—Preceding unsigned comment added by James A Whitson ( talk • contribs)
I propose we change the following sentence in one of three ways, "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2]"
Perhaps the consensus will change given adequate evidence to indicate some contrary fact that is also verifiable, in keeping with WP:NPOV#Undue_weight of course. Thus far, no one has been named who reasonably meets the characterization of "leading proponent" who is not affiliated with the DI. Now, if the argument being presented here is that Ann Coulter is a "leading proponent", and therefore the language should be changed, by all means proceed to make the case and see if there's some agreement on a possible change of the language to "most" or "many" of the leading proponents being affiliated with the DI. Personally I don't see it, but by all means go ahead.... Kenosis 04:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, users dave souza, Guettarda, Jim62sch, FeloniousMonk, ScienceApologist, KillerChihuahua, Ec5618, JoshuaZ, Roland Deschain, and myself all support the current language, and I'm sure I've missed a good few others that have also backed the current wording verbatim. Would anyone I've just mentioned please correct me if I'm wrong about that, or if I've missed too many other editors that were involved in the consensus process on this issue?... Kenosis 04:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Bagginator, this discussion has been going on for well over two years. In that entire time, no leading proponent was identified that did not turn out upon further research to be affiliated with the Discovery Institute. That remains true irrespective of the time at which the current language was placed, which was after the Kitzmiller decision was published and there was a verified source for the current language in the article. ... Kenosis 22:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Bagginatory, while it is admirable you are reading the archives, you may wish to read what consensus is. It is not counting people who agree with you over time. If you want to change the statement, then give an example of a leading proponent who is not affiliated with the Discovery Institute. We've had two suggestions for this: 1) George W. Bush (roundly rejected) and 2) John H. Calvert (and the consensus seemed to be that this person wasn't a leading proponent and may actually be affiliated with DI inasmuch he might be considered a leadning proponent). -- ScienceApologist 10:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I vote for option #0 - current version, because all the proposed changes are worse than the current version.
Are there any sources that question the statement as it stands? If so, let's see them. If not, this is all a violation of WP:NOR. Guettarda 14:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Bagginator listed John Umana as a possible leading proponent of intelligent design. I would dispute this characterization. Umana was a proponent of creationism who kept all his arguments and did a global replace of the term "creationism" with the term "intelligent design" per the neocreationist program. THIS IS FALSE. UMANA IS A PROPONENT OF COMMON DESCENT, PROVED BY THE CONVERGENCE OF THE SCIENCES, WHO DISPUTES DARWINIAN NATURAL SELECTION AS AN EXPLANATION OF ORIGIN OF SPECIES OR EMERGENCE OF LIFE ON EARTH 3.9 Ga. HE HAS PRESENTED A NEW THEORY OF BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION, TIED TO A THEORY OF BIG BANG COSMOLOGY. HE IS A DANFORTH FELLOW AND MEMBER OF THE U.S. SUPREME COURT BAR, WHO RECEIVED HIS PH.D. AND J.D. FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN. LEGAL TIMES HAS CORRECTLY REFERRED TO HIM (MAY 2006) AS A LEADING PROPONENT OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN. HE IS NOT AFFILIATED WITH DISCOVERY OR ANY ORGANIZATION, AND CALLS FOR MORE AND BETTER SCIENCE, NOT RELIANCE ON 19TH CENTURY CONJECTURE. So I'm still looking for a proponent that is both leading and unaffiliated with the Discovery Institute. Once that is found, I would be more than happy to discuss changing the present wording. -- ScienceApologist 15:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Concern from a different angle: It is not obvious that all proponents of ID consider it to be a scientific theory. No such evidence exists for at least one major proponent I can think of, philosopher William Lane Craig. Unless this can be established for every "leading" proponent of ID (and this, by the way, is only a standard I'm borrowing from those who wish to keep the sentence under dispute), it is a baseless assertion. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 18:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
As for the question of whether there are any leading proponents of ID who are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute: The philosopher I listed above, William Lane Craig, is obviously affiliated with the Discovery Institute (he's a fellow), but a more notable philosopher, Alvin Plantinga is less obviously so (there's a short article by him on the Institute's site [13] and a few other laudatory mentions of his name elsewhere). I'm not sure what the standard is to determine whether or not someone is affiliated, but I thought I'd throw this into the discussion. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 18:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Not only that, most (but not all) theologians today have distanced themselves from this argument even as theology, because those theologians recognize the "God of the gaps" trap that a number of previous theologians have fallen prey to. But this issue is quite secondary if not completely irrelevant to the wording of the introductory paragraph of the intelligent design article. ... Kenosis 20:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to thank Bagginator for the great amount of work he's put into this. As to his three proposals, one and two look unacceptable. The first proposal again is tricky because it ignores a number of very significant proponents who are affiliated with the DI but are not scientists. Proposal 2 is likewise extremely unacceptable because 'many' has yet to be sourced and we fundamentally cannot alter a sourced reference because editors believe it to be untrue since this would be original research. However, if you could find leading proponents who are not affiliated with the DI then this discussion would become irrelevent since there would be sourced evidence to change it. The third point is accurate, but has worrying connotations. To put it bluntly, by suggesting it is her comment, it argues implicitly that other people do not have this view. Therefore, the onus must be on us to first find sources that dispute her point of view before altering the phrase. Unless contradictory sources can be found and verified, this proposal amounts to a rewrite of Wikipedia in general - inserting 'x claims' and 'y says' before literally every source. I doubt this is necessary and if you think it is, it would be more sensible to pursue this at a Wikipedia policy level rather than on a particular article page. As such, I'd suggest that the way forward here is to attempt to locate sources that contradict the sentence under dispute. -- Davril2020 18:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
One more argument against asserting that all (or even most) "leading" ID proponents are affiliated with the Discovery Institute: The Discovery Institute primarily operates in United States. While their people may dominate the news coverage of the dispute in the United States, this is not the case elsewhere. Outside the United States, prominent proponents of ID (proponents who are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute) include former Australian Minister for Education, Science and Training Brendan Nelson, University of Warwick sociologist and philosopher Steve Fuller (he actually also testified in Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District), and Andy McIntosh, a professor of thermodynamics at the University of Leeds and head of the British advocacy group, "Truth in Science" [14]. McIntosh's group made headlines most recently when they published a piece in Britain advocating ID [15]. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 22:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
In pointing out that two from the US have also been asserted to be leading proponents not affiliated with the Discovery Insititute, I am by no means trying to be flippant, as Simoes just expressed concern about (although I reserve that right). I was attempting to identify those who are, or have been, asserted by one or more Wikipedia users to be "leading proponents". To Simoes' list of non-US commentators, I added two in the US who previously have been asserted on this talk page to be "leading proponents". I think it's time to debate this again in light of all the evidence, and either reaffirm or change the consensus about this particular issue. Incidentally, please also see my response to Simoes' comment a bit farther above in this section, as it is somewhat relevant to this exchange of views. ... Kenosis 00:19, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Bagginator stopped by my talk page and asked for my opinion, so here it is:
I think ScienceApologist makes very good points regarding all 3 proposed changes. The text as it stands is accurate. I'm against adding scientific to the wording, as anyone who is backing ID is disregarding science, whether they care to admit it or not. #2 would indeed be a degradation of the article quality, and #3 makes it sound like a less credible statement by her and not the fact that it is. -- Nnp 23:40, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I did not list John Umana, the Legal Times says of John Umana, "As an aside, Umana is also a leading proponent of intelligent design," It doesn't matter what my opinion is of John Umana, it matters that he is reported by the media as being a "leading proponent" of intelligent design. Therefore making the sentence in question incorrect. I would list, on the other hand all of the following as leading proponents of intelligent design that the Discovery Institute says are, "not associated with Discovery", Steve Fuller (Testified in Kitzmiller), Mark DeForrest, David DePew, Eugene Garver and Chandra Wickramasinghe. Bagginator 01:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Here's the very basic history of this issue as I see it presently:
Three years ago Johnson and Dembski had been identified as leading proponents, although the words "leading proponents" were not used in the article at that time.
Two years ago By the end of 2004 ( [16]), the Center for Science and Culture had been properly identified in the article as a subsidiary of the Discovery Instutute and was no longer ever under dispute by the editors.
One year ago: Throughout all this, no one showed up at the article or on the talk page with any verified references to leaders of the ID movement who were not affiliated with the DI.
On January 10. 2006, roughly a month after the Kitzmiller decision was published, FeloniousMonk adds the language "leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute"
More recently, several have been asserted to also be "leading proponents", including the various persons mentioned thus far in this section. So I'm proposing to use this opportunity to make a list of them and debate the issues on the verifiable merits.... Kenosis 01:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
It's silly to keep it as it is. Being both in the introduction, and having a phrasing that is open to interpretation, it should be explicit about who said that, in addition to being cited. An example of how obviously wrong this is: George Bush could be considered a partial proponent of ID and because of his position and authority, could be called a leading proponent, though he is not associated with the DI. i kan reed 19:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I've opened a new section here since we seem to have drifted away from the purpose of the immediately preceding section. It's clear that there are some editors here who believe that there are now proponents of intelligent design who are not affiliated with the DI. I would concur with Kenosis that this is an appropriate time to review the evidence for and against. Consequently I would suggest that if anyone wishes to propose a new candidate as a leading proponent of intelligent design but who is not affiliated with the DI, that they post the name here, and details of why (with supporting sources) they qualify as a 'leading' proponent. -- Davril2020 01:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Sources for any of this? What credible sources have called them "leading proponents" - sources written by people who would be in a position to judge? Digging through lists of people and trying to come up with our own definition of "leading proponents" amounts to "original research". Guettarda 03:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
And now, instead of slinging insults and attacking arguments I didn't even make, will you please re-read what I had to say? Guettarda 06:30, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Guettarda asks a question, "Sources for any of this?" I very clearly linked my source. Bagginator 05:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Nice to see Brendan getting some recognition at last. He's not widely respected in Oz, having sold us to the American pharmaceutical firms during the negotiations on the Free Trade agreement. But I don't think a politician, even one with a medical background, can be be regarded as an authority on ID or any other branch of science. Or religion either, for that matter. Mind you, if he prescribed me a pill for hayfever or a law on pharmaceutical benefits, I'd listen with respect. The others...same problem as with Brendan, really: are they authorities in the field of biological science, life sciences, etc etc? Have they relevant expertise? A philosopher of religion, a social epistemologist (whatever that is), a professor of thermodynamics...no, I don't feel confidence in their credentials to speak on the origin of life or of species. As Jim says somewhere up above, these people are supporters of ID, not proponents. But by all means, let's have more suggestions.
PiCo
06:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
So, even assuming there are any other notable "leading proponents", it would appear the introductory section of the WP article appears at a minimum to need to give credit to the Discovery Institute and the CSC as the nexus and creator of the ID movement. ... Kenosis 07:25, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
We appear to be getting off track. Ive identified a leading proponent of Intelligent Design. We are not looking for "authorities" on Intelligent Design, by the way. If we want to look for "authorities" on Intelligent Design we should change the sentence to read "authorities" instead of "leading proponents". If you want to accept anyone who is an "authority" on Intelligent Design as a "leading proponent" please indicate such and of course we can change the sentence and begin our search for "authorities" on Intelligent Design instead of "leading proponents". But for now let's stick to calling them "leading proponents" as "authorities" is not what the article said and unless you have a source, is not what was meant in the trial by Barbara Forrest. Bagginator 09:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC) Looking at This paper in the Ohio State Law Journal identifies Gerald Schroeder also as a "leading proponent" of Intelligent Design. Or should I be looking for reliable sources that call them "authorities"? Have we decided which words we are looking for? Bagginator 10:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
What constitutes a leading proponent is already defined in previous discussions, now archived. By any meaningful, reasonable definition, a leading proponent of ID is one who has published the most influential books on the topic. That would be those whose work is recognized/cited by others as being crucial to understanding the topic. Those who are recognized ID's leading proponents are widely accepted as Behe, Dembski, Johnson, Meyer, Wells, Gonzalez and Pearcey. Gerald Schroeder has never published on the topic even close to the degree of those listed here, so rightly he has never been considered a leading proponent. FeloniousMonk 18:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems we've got a lot of talk already past this but I figured I should keep adding leading proponents that I discover. So far our list contains John Umana,
Alvin Plantinga,
Brendan Nelson,
Steve Fuller, Andy McIntosh,
Gerald Schroeder and now i'd like to add two more, that Barbara Forrest in her Testimony in Kitzmiller calls leaders of intelligent design, Edward Sisson and Jed Macosko. I believe if we are going to accept Barbara Forrests testimony in one part to indentify leading proponents, we should accept her testimony in all parts. The following is the
testimony I refer to.
And if you go and visit the magazine she is talking about, and the interview in particular, you will see that Edward Sisson and Jed Macosko are two of those who were interviewed. Bagginator 05:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me again, but this discussion has completely lost perspective. Folks are now arguing whether to use the term "leaders" rather than "leading proponents". Since some of the various participants are picking nits about precision of language, we should perhaps note that intelligent design per se doesn't have leaders, it is the movement that has leaders, and the concept that has leading proponents. So we'd rather mangle the language, or refer to the "movement" in the very first paragraph of the intro? It sounds, to say the least, very un-parsimonious for the introductory paragraph. The paragraph already summarizes the verified reality of the concept of intelligent design quite succinctly and accurately, despite protestations about the words "all of the" and the words "leading proponents". It accurately and verifiably summarizes what it is, and where it came from.
How about maybe developing a flow-chart illustration for possible inclusion in the article (consistent with WP:VER of course), like an evolutionary tree starting in the late-1980's showing who's involved in naming, defining, disseminating and promoting the concept of intelligent design. Then proceed to tag them according to DI affiliation. What you'll find is that it was not until the turn of the millennium that these other players in the controversy began showing up conspicuously in the debate bacause the idea of getting a wedge into the public school system was copacetic with their particular agendas. These are people who got on board with something they each thought they could "hang their hat on", so to speak, each for their own reasons. So, if the counter-argument is, for instance, that George W. Bush or Ann Coulter or the Australian Education Minister have become leading proponents, they can at least be put into proper perspective by the reader of the article. At least a flow chart would show how far down the hierarchy of development and dissemination these persons actually are. ... Kenosis 17:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, this list is getting quite long. By the way, these are not my opinion but that of reliable sources. Avant News from November 18 2005 [30]Metcalf Poppikoch a leading proponent of intelligent design. Bagginator 01:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought it would be instructive at this point to update the list. So far, those who are considered leading proponents of Intelligent Design who are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute are as follows:
Jim, you've been trolled. You're arguing with a guy who cited fake news...and doesn't even blink when Kenosis points it out. Laugh it off. Bagginator, good one. You had me going for a while there. Guettarda 12:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Anyone who has a desire feel free to check the sources, as Kenosis did. I provided a link for that very purpose. You will see that we have many examples here of leading proponents of Intelligent Design that are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute. I encourage you to check the sources and if you find errors to report them in a civil tone, not a mocking tone. Bagginator 13:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC) Also, Jim makes a very good point above. Pretty soon I believe I shall have access to Lexis Nexis and will be able to do a lot more research on this issue. How does one confirm a source through the use of Lexis Nexis? Bagginator 13:27, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
By the last count in this section, Bagginator had narrowed down the list of possible candidates for leading-proponents-of-intelligent-design-who-are-not-affiliated-with-the-Discovery-Institute to: John Umana, Brendan Nelson, Steve Fuller, Andy McIntosh, Gerald Schroeder, Edward Sisson, Norris Gravlox, Jody Wheeler, Jack Cashill, Mat Staver. Fuller is an epistemologist whose views about the demarcation problem were useful to the defendants in Kitzmiller v. Dover, and not a leading advocate of intelligent design per se. Sisson is affiliated by merit of funding connections and a de facto association with the DI (part of the $3.4 million in CSC grant money). Other than Nelson, the rest are at most minor influences in the intelligent design debate or controversy within the last several years, and had no leading role in the development and dissemination of intelligent design. That leaves Brendan Nelson, the Australian Education Minister who latched onto the idea in 2005, proposing the teaching of intelligent design in Australian schools. Is Nelson a leading proponent sufficient to negate the statement "it's leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute, say that intelligent design is a scientific theory, ..."? ... Kenosis 14:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The first line of the article defines ID as the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." I'm uneasy with the part that comes after the comma, characterising natural selection as an 'undirected process', which is inaccurate and tendentious (I've been longing to use that word). Should the article be assisting the Id people to mischaracterise natural selection? How about cutting the quote off at the comma? PiCo 06:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Why is it important to stress that all (or almost all, or most) leading ID proponents are affiliated with the Discovery Institute? What are the implications of such an affiliation?
If someone is making an argument that because of this affiliation, a conclusion follows THEN we should spell out the conclusion. Perhaps it is the argument that:
I note that this conclusion is held by nearly all the 'contributors' who are resisting Bagginator's proposed changes. It seems that this faction all want Wikipedia to endorse a POV. However, Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral on controversial matters.
So it would be better for us to dig a little further and provide sources pertaining to advocacy of viewpoints such as (1) that ID itself has a pro-Creationist bias and (2) that ID has an evangelistic purpose.
I daresay the dispute over whether #1 and/or #2 is true, lies at the heart of the controversy over Intelligent Design. -- Uncle Ed 16:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Since those with a pro-ID slant have resurrected the issue again that there may be leading ID proponents who are not affiliated with the Discovery Institute, I'll issue my same challenge one more time: Name one leading ID proponent one whose work is widely recognized and who is not affiliated with the Discovery Institute. Just one. FeloniousMonk 18:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Change the title of the article to "Intelligent design (Discovery Institute)." Even though the DI's own definition is rather problematic if they're aiming to exclude every popular creation myth out there, stating that this article is about DI's actual usage (as opposed to definition), which is obviously a reiterated version of the Abrahamic creation account, would settle things in my mind. The base intelligent design article would simply be a survey of all creation accounts signicant numbers of people still believe in today. Thoughts? Simões ( talk/ contribs) 19:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
- Amatulic 20:30, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection."
the theory that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by a designing intelligence [33]
The Discovery Institute is saying that ID (specifically their version of it) is scientific. This is distinct from it being part of the definition. "Intelligent design" does indeed refer to all creation accounts. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 20:14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
So we have three different concepts
All of which have articles, therefore I suggest this could focus on the Discovery institutes specific views, AS IT CURRENTLY DOES ANYWAY, only it could be more specific about doing so! And have a disambiguation notices pointing to all three above articles! So this was my little proposal, what do you thing? :) -- Vesal 20:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Um, no. Creating a "Intelligent design (Discovery Institute)" article would create a POV fork, as there is no alternate intelligent design being promoted, as has been explained here previously. FeloniousMonk 20:38, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
This issue of historicity of the term and of the concept intelligent design is already well covered in the article. The term would have gone virtually or completely unnoticed in the context of the teleological argument had it not been picked up, given a shine, and used as a handle by the DI affiliates in the late-1980s and 90s. ... Kenosis 21:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The only issue as I see it from above is that this is a dispute about who "leads" in promoting intelligent design and who follows. If a random ID-believer on the street think that their pastor, a lawyer in Kansas, the president of the United States, or the cardinal from Austria whose comments DI lauded is the person who "led" them to intelligent design, I think we may be hardpressed to verifiably support or contradict this opinion. It is entirely conceivable that someone was led to their belief in intelligent design by someone other than the DI leaders. We could say that the DI-affiliates "leads your leader", but this defies verifiability. How are we going to verifiably show that every conceivable "leader" is "led" by a DI-affiliate?
I think that this weird issue makes the current wording slightly weasely. I absolutely agree with the intent and stated explanations of the wording but I disagree with its phrasing and think it is too open to inaccurate interpretation. Unfortunately, I have been unable to come up with an alternative way of precisely indicating what is being illustrated by this single sentence.
The association with DI is absolutely unmistakable (to the point of being uncanny) when evaluating the evidence that ID advocates present. This is precisely the sense in which all the leading proponents are affiliated with DI. However, the term "leading" itself is (sadly) an equivocal and somewhat weasely adjective. Let's brainstorm about alternative wordings that can get across the same meaning without being subject to such handwringing.
-- ScienceApologist 21:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
The article starts with a very bad definition: Intelligent design (ID) is the concept that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection." I take definition very seriously, so for me the next sentence reads "The leading proponents of the view that certain features of the universe are best explained by an intelligent cause are all affiliated with the Discovery Institute". That is clearly false! Many honest creationists also believe design to be the best explanation, but they admit it is an irrational, faith-based explanation, or that science has not yet uncovered the evidence, whatever. No scientist has a problem with that... So am I just annoying you guys with "pro-ID propaganda" or do you think I might have point, because I actually came here to help and for the record, I'm very anti-ID. -- Vesal 21:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Thus far, the only concise way the editors have found for accurately representing the role of the DI in the packaging and dissemination of ID is exactly as the article is currently written. Perhaps something like the following in the second sentence of the intro? "Intelligent design was formulated and disseminated by members and affiliates of the Discovery Institute." might seem more accurate and less weasel-worded at first glance. But upon closer analysis, the intro is already accurate: First the Discovery Institute's definition is used as the basis for introducing the concept, with a citation. The DI and affiliates are the ones that packaged and disseminated this modern formulation of the teleological argument to the public, so they are the authoritative source for this brief definition, and that's verified through almost an endless number of sources, one of which is cited in that particular footnote. The second sentence then proceeds to build on the first. Given that the definition is that of the DI, this sentence proceeds to say, verifiably and accurately, that "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute,[2] say that intelligent design is a scientific theory that stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the evolution and origin of life.[3]" I suspect this is as good as it gets and as accurate as it gets for a subject as complex as this one is. The article then proceeds to explain it, quite informatively in my opinion. ... Kenosis 22:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Replace the vague (and perhaps also weasel) word "leading" with "internationally prominent." This will exclude those who are more identified as leading the ID charge in certain nations or regions (and, as ScienceApologist pointed out, also arguably "leading proponents"). Behe, Johnson, and Dembski are all internationally well-published and affiliated with the Institute. It is less vague to describe them, in particular, as "internationally prominent" than "leading." And if anyone considers the two to be synonymous, then they shouldn't have a problem with a swap. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 23:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Search on "John Umana"+intelligent+design -- 79 hits.
Search on "Michael Behe"+intelligent+design -- 193,000 hits.
You decide.
•Jim62sch•
00:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Kenosis, how exactly can a publication "misuse" an opinion? Bagginator 01:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Speaking for just myself, I might sign off on the language "It's leading proponents, virtually all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute, say that intelligent design is a scientific theory ...", except that it would most assuredly be attacked as WP:Weasel, because, of course, in the introductory paragraph of the article on Intelligent design, it is necessary to be precise in our language on a subject which aims to include theological concepts as part of the public school science curricula in accordance with the promulgation of a "theistic methodology of science", especially in the United States (and perhaps elsewhere of course, though the US is where the controversy was/is primarily created and located). ... But I digress somewhat. ... Kenosis 04:12, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
My only other major concern is the length of this article and maybe the controversy part should be a separate article, although it is a very crucial part. I also don't like the term controversy, because controversy is immediately used as in "teach the controversy". "Pseudo-scientific nature of Intelligent Design" or "Conflict with the Scientific Community" I think are more precise, or "Intelligent Design and Science", which could also be the title of a separate article summarized here. Well anyway, good night! -- Vesal 01:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
ID claims to be science, but the scientific community's response to ID has been nothing but critical. NPOV policy calls for presenting all significant viewpoints on disputed topics. WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience tells us "...the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." Splitting off the scientific community's reception and opinion of concept that claims to be science into a separate article would create a POV fork, and POV forks are forbidden by policy. FeloniousMonk 19:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
"Intelligent design presents a critique of.." 'Critique' seems like way too strong a word as ID proponents have no scientific basis and no meaningful response. How about "Intelligent design proponents are of the opinion that.."?
I'd say it's virtually a paraphrase. ID proponents do have an extensive critique of evolutionary theory and while most of us here would agree that it is groundless and based upon error, I don't think that in itself disqualifies it from being a critique. -- Davril2020 16:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
This discussion about "leading proponents" makes no sense. We don't create knowledge, we report it. Without an agreement as to what constitutes a "leading proponent", there's nowhere to go. We have an authoritative source, which has not been challenged by any other authoritative sources. If no one has challenged Forrest's definition statement, then we have no grounds change it. What makes a leading proponent? Would that be the top 10% of active proponents? The top 5%? The people who had written more than one book or 5 scholarly articles? The people who were involved in a full time basis for >6 months, or a half-time basis for more than 2 years? What sets a leading proponent apart from others? If we want to have this discussion at all, we need to define the sample space. If we don't have an agreed-upon definition (which, of course, is supported by external usage, as per the idea of NOR), then we can only rely on authoritative sources - academics who have devoted the professional career to studying ID and the people behind it (Forrest, Pennock, etc.) and people who can speak on behalf of the movement. Maybe a journalist who did an in-depth article looking at this issue. Beyond that, we can't go. Wikipedia policy doesn't allow it.
Guettarda
17:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Typo. Fixed. Guettarda 17:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Also, we can go a little further if need be, such as to a request for comment. And I'm not confident that those who aren't already heavily involved with this article and intransigently against modifying the sentence in any way are going to agree with you, FM, et al. Simões ( talk/ contribs) 17:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
The passage "Its leading proponents, all of whom are affiliated with the Discovery Institute" is accurate. No one has yet provided evidence that there are proponents who are more notable than Dembski, Behe, Johnson, Meyer, et al. Until notable sources per WP:V and WP:RS are provided that outweigh all the evidence that all leading proponents are affiliated with the Discovery Institute is submitted, this is a dead issue. Continually raising dead issues is considered tendentious argumentation, and it is disruptive to the article and project and highly frowned upon. The project provides a number of processes for dealing with tendentious and disruptive contributors and cranks, and there is a limit to what long time contributors need to put with. FeloniousMonk 18:53, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Dude, the following couple of sentences in the article are grounded in the same proof as the content you just deleted. It makes me wonder if you even know what 'transcendental' and 'immanent' mean. - Psychohistorian 18:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)