This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Inquisition article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
|
|
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is it possible to provide an entimated range of deaths from the whole series of historical Inquisitions added together? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.69.81 ( talk) 00:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
No it isn't hsince the actual death toll was much smaller than we might imagine. Of course the Inquisition was a pretty reprehensible institution but that was just a result of the age it was living in. The death toll for killing heretics was much bigger if you consider the actions of the various states, kings, dukes and other lords than if you just look at the Inquisition because basically in those times heresy was regarded as a crime against the STATE, as treson towards your lord, pretty much as terrorism is today. That was the general opinion at the time. Of course it's stupid but that's what people used to believe back then. As you might imagine, the various kings and lords had little concern if a particular heretic or somebody who was just accused of heresy recanted or not or if he was actually guilty or not. Just as it would happen with an accusation of terrorism today, one you're suspected, it's over. Of course the Church didn't really like that. Anyway you might want to listen to the lectures of Thomas F. Madden from the University of Missouri, St. Louis, or really read any SCIENTIFIC historical work by a modern historian (but I really mean a scientific historical work nut just something written for purposes of popularisation of science you know, not something written for everyone, because those things are afraid to challange popular views today, sometimes at the expense of the truth.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC) well if you add all the estimates it would probably add up to 75,000 + —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.224.63.184 ( talk) 02:15, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
An editor has deleted without comment this statement "In practice, the Inquisition would not pronounce sentence, but handed over convicted heretics to secular authorities." Since it was not footnoted, I didn't revert it. But it is true, of course, and needs reinsertion whenever someone can come up with a footnote. Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 12:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
It is emphatically correct that it was the secular courts who administered the (more vile of) the punishments. The Inquisition Tribunal, IF they found someone guilty of heresy, they could only excommunicate that person. Which didn't really mean much. I mean various kings were excommunicated all the time without much consequence. The thing is that the decision of an Inquisition Tribunal was regarded as full conclusive evidence in a criminal court (run by the king, duke or another lord). And in those times the various states and their rulers (kings, dukes, counts, other lords) regarded heresy as treason against them, as a crime against the state. And also the popular opinion was really geared against it, it was almost considered as dangerous as we view terrorism today. Of course it sounds silly and it actually is kind of really stupid but that used to be the consensus at the time. As you might imagine for a king or lord, once someone was suspected of heresy they would have loved to burn them without any further fuss (pretty much as it happens with terrorism today) and they didn't really like the Inquisition since they could actually establish that the guy wasn't guilty. In any case the death penalty was a punishmnent pronounced by the criminal courts of the crown/state/lords for heresy and the punishment was then administered by the state/lord.
SOURCE: "Heaven or Heresy: A History of the Inquisition" by Thomas F. Madden, the Chair of the History Department at Saint Louis University in St. Louis, Missouri (he actually has a wikipedia page and the book is available as an audiobook and it at least used to be available for free) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Omulurimaru (
talk •
contribs)
22:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
One paragraph says that the church felt threatened by what it perceived as the schism of the church. I'm not sure that the Protestants did not perceive this in a similar fashion. Luther felt (probably correctly at the time) that he had to take true believers away from the pollution of Rome. Henry VIII was just doing it for political reasons. In the case of the latter, he never thought of the result as any more than "The Catholic Church of England", a straight derivative of the RC Church. Student7 ( talk) 18:28, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Quite true, the Protestants perceived it in quite a similar fashion and in fact many Protestants had their own Inquision in order to find those who held the heresy of Papism. But arguably there were other Protestants who simply dismantled the Inquisitions in thier areas. This was getting much more on the side of a political struggle rather than an inquest by a State or Church authority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 01:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Dear friends, are there any figures about the number of victims? Regards
·
לערי ריינהארט·
T·
m:
Th·
T·
email me·
01:59, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
What is not considered is, how many died during questioning, which would evade the execution count by some amount, possibly substantial, due to techniques utilized. Wzrd1 ( talk) 05:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
For complete and unpartial information, it would be necesary to reflect victims from another countries. In it's actual state, it seems that all the victims proceeded mainly from Spain, when France or UK had very worse numbers by habitants. User:josevzs 18:12, 03 Sep 2020 (UTC)
1. Estimated number of victims. Why is that information not on this page? In this link http://www.christianityandhumanrights.com/_witches.html it is said that the estimate for Europe as a whole is 2,000,000 million victims. 2. That 'Trivia' section with references to Monty Python or films, etc., is absolutely irrelevant. 3. Shouldn't these mass murders be considered genocide? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.59.12.149 ( talk) 23:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm afraid I made a mistake by saying 'genocide' when what I meant was 'massacre'. Anyway, thanks for the reply. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.59.12.149 ( talk) 00:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
And by the way, why is the very first external link to a page that tries to justify the Inquisition 'because it was the morality of the time?'. I find that extremely offensive.
Particularly one of the so-called Myths caught my attention: Myth: The hideous procedures of the Inquisition were unjust, cruel, inhumane, and barbaric. The Inquisition roasted their victims' feet over fire, bricked them up into walls to languish for all eternity, smashed their joints with hammers, and flayed them on wheels.
Reality: Despite the compelling Gothic fictions, the evidence leads us to a wholly different conclusion. The procedures of the Inquisition are well known through a whole series of papal bulls and other authoritative documents, but mainly through such formularies and manuals as were prepared by St. Raymond Peñaforte (c1180-1275), the great Spanish canonist, and Bernard Gui (1261-1331), one of the most celebrated inquisitors of the early 14th Century. The Inquisitors were certainly interrogators, but they were theological experts who followed the rules and instructiones meticulously, and were dismissed and punished when they showed too little regard for justice. When, for example, in 1223 Robert of Bourger gleefully announced his aim to burn heretics, not to convert them, he was immediately suspended and imprisoned for life by Gregory IX.16
The inquisitorial procedures were surprisingly just and even lenient. In contrast with other tribunals throughout Europe at the time, they appear as almost enlightened.
I mean, seriously. This is just blatant lying. The people were burnt alive at stakes. And if you ever visit certain museums all over Europe you'll find examples of the wonderful torture devices that were used, such as Catherine Wheels, racks and whatnot.
I mean, adding such ridiculous link as the first one (or just adding it) is an insult to the readers. And it's a lie. Go grab a History book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.59.12.149 ( talk) 01:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
We could go on and on and never be in accordance. These people were Christians, with the exact same morality that you have now if you are a Christian. Saying that it was normal back then is like saying it would be normal right now. It amazes me that we think that people of other eras were dumb and that we are the very best people that have ever existed, fairer and better than anyone before us. In fact, secular ethics came a long time before Christianity thanks to the Greek thinkers, and some of them seem pretty pacifistic and logical even today. I don't think it's the morality of the time as much as just the corrupted morality of those who were in power at the time: the Church and the State.
Plus, following that simple logic, you would be saying that the Holocaust was okay, because it was also the morality of the people of the time. Terrorist attacks are also okay because they are the morality of those who commit them, and so on. You know, because these things are relatively normal and acceptable nowadays, as we all know. I accept them as perfectly valid. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.59.12.149 ( talk) 17:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
"It was not, however, the way of the world, while in contrast, the things that went on during the inquisition were! Again, that's part of the point!" I think it's sad that you try to convince yourself about what you're saying with that lame excuse. However I won't argue anymore. Keep telling that to yourself.
Look, guys, no one is trying to excuse the inquisition here. But as historians, using the scientific method, we have to get to the truth disregarding all other factors. What we have to do is go read the original historical sources (that were written at the time) or scientific material based on those (which is arguably boring since it's scientific; but the stuff written by popular writers for purposes of popularising history is based on secondary or tertiary sources and therefore is bound to get some facts wrong). First of all there was no such thing as one inquisition. The Inquisition was firstly a legal practice equivalent to what we would call today an inquiry or inquest. Over time this practice gave birth to 3 types of institutions that dealt with finding out heresy. These institutions did not pronounce punishments other than excommunication.
Thus the Spanish Inquisitions went wildly against the converts with the aim of basically confiscating their property. They could not go against the Jews since Jews were not Christian. So it all ended when Ferdinand decided to expell all the Jews (roughly half of which decided that it was better to convert than be expelled - of course a large number of those lived as Crypto-Jews, in secret). So you see the truth is much more complex than common belief today, since history is not just a story.
Of course for various reasons the Inquisition today is viewed by most of the people in a different way: most people believe that is was this monstruous intitution. And again it wasn't something "good" but then again it was by no account what most people today believe it was. Unfortunately most people today are not historians. Historians, just like any other scientists must apply the scientific method of research when they study history. And for understanding any phenomenon in history we apply the same basic questions: why? how? where? when? And we go to the original sources written in those times. We're sorry the truth is different than the popularly held myth. But the popular opinion about the Inquisition, like any myth, is based upon some core truth but which is blown out of proportion becasue most people don't want to hear boring science, they want to hear an entertaining story.
Another point that should be made is that most of us really have no notion about just how bloody and cruel those times really were. For example torture had been used in criminal proceedings - ANY kind of criminal proceeding, be it about theft, murder, treason or heresy - since basically the Ancient world. It was part of the (originally pagan) Roman justice system. Of course it wasn't applied indefinitely it could be applied only twice and for short periods of time (like 5-15 minutes). And it wasn't a punishment it wasn't something done to punish someone. Rather it was a part of the investigation technique used in any crime -- remember they didn't have forensics back then. Anyways someone said here that we cannot judge that society, back then, by our standards. That's not really true: the correct, scientific attitude here should be that we can't judge that society at all since it's not our job. As historians we should reasearch and relate the truth in a scientific manner and leave the morality judgements to journalists and priests and atheism appologists and the like. We're just here to relate the facts. And this is probably what this Wiki article ought to be about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 01:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I have to admit the beginning of this article has me confused a little bit by its emphasis on torture. It seems to be presenting it as something unique or new that was championed by the Inquisition, when this was certainly not the case. Perhaps this should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.43.185.150 ( talk) 18:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes Foxe wrote a book, sort of accurate by modern day standards and very pov in order to inflame public opinion against Catholics. The English business was more of a power struggle between factions as England often had up until about William and Mary or so. Putting a religious tinge on it, was simply their way of saying that the incumbent king was great or a louse. Easier if you can decide based on what church you attend instead of more complex factors! Neither side paid much attention to religious leaders abroad, much less the pope, or Martin Luther or anybody else. Not sure it should be featured here. More of a canard IMO. Student7 ( talk) 21:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Saying "although similar institutions existed in the Protestant church" is wholly inaccurate.
Nothing comparable existed. Wars between Protestant and Catholic states in the age of chivalry are not comparable to religious violence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.219.109 ( talk) 18:38, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Student7,, keep on studying. Your view is highly POV and incorrect, according to the nuns that educated ME! People believed in curses and evil spirits that could be conjured, which would afflict the victim or more commonly, the victim's goats, sheep, fowl or groin or any permutation thereof, hence the witchcraft trials, which were LOCAL. Hence, underrepresented in Vatican archives until far later. Wzrd1 ( talk) 05:52, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
The link to "Spain and the Spaniard" is a bit much. It is highly POV. I think it should go into the deletion bin/recycling bin/trash bin/rubbish heap.
Devilishlyhandsome (
talk)
17:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The statement in the article that "It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy" is actually erroneous.
The history of Ammianus Marcellinus attests the existence of Christian state inquisitions during the rule of Constantius II, c.350 CE, at the city of Scythopolis. See specifically Chapter XII and XIII-XIV of the Book XIX of Ammianus' Res Gestae:
[quote]...as accusations extended more widely, involving numbers without end in their snares, many perished; some with their bodies mangled on the rack; others were condemned to death and confiscation of their goods; while Paulus kept on inventing groundless accusations, as if he had a store of lies on which to draw, and suggesting various pretences for injuring people, so that on his nod, it may he said, the safety of every one in the place depended. For if any one wore on his neck a charm against the quartan ague or any other disease, or if by any information laid by his ill-wishers he was accused of having passed by a sepulchre at nightfall, and therefore of being a sorcerer, and one who dealt in the horrors of tombs and the vain mockeries of the shades which haunt them, he was found guilty and condemned to death. [/quote]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.105.225 ( talk) 06:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
I've just read the NY Times obituary of Benzion Netanyahu. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/01/world/middleeast/benzion-netanyahu-dies-at-102.html?hp . It references his book "The Origins of the Inquisition in 15th Century France" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679410651/ref=kinw_rke_rti_1 . From the obituary and from the book reviews quoted on Amazon, it looks like this is a major scholarly study of the Spanish Inquisition, though its thesis is apparently controversial. Shouldn't this book be mentioned in the Bibliography section here? I'm inclined to add it. Is there any reason not to? Omc ( talk) 07:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Actually, this citation, by Yale Law School, seems to suggest just the opposite. Student7 ( talk) 20:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
This quote from the "reputation(s)" section of the article is a pretty blatantly POV piece of apologist crap: "With the sharpening of debate and of conflict between the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Counter-Reformation, Protestant societies came to see/use the Inquisition as a terrifying "Other" trope,[24] while staunch Catholics regarded the Holy Office as a necessary bulwark against the spread of reprehensible heresies. So it is necessary to realise evidence shows that those involved with the inquisition sincerely thought that they were doing God's work in extirpating what they considered heresy and opposition to the Roman Church. The very title of the humiliating spectacles of the 'auto-da-fe' which means 'act of faith' shows this. Their acts were a consequence of their beliefs rather than any initial pathology." Uh, okay, so should we give the Taliban a free pass because they believe they're doing God's work? This piece has little relevance to the subject matter because it's obviously implied that the atrocities committed during the Inquisition were due to the perpetrator's religious beliefs. If no one can come up with a valid reason not to in the next week or so, I'm removing this section entirely. It's unnecessary and is nothing more than a weak attempt to make an excuse for atrocities committed by the Church. 192.26.212.203 ( talk) 17:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Auto da fe is not Spanish, it's Portuguese. -- Jidu Boite ( talk) 08:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
According to Ricardo García-Cárcel, 'La Inquisición', ISBN: 84-7969-011-9, 'The role of monarchy in the Spanish Inquisition between...(XIII and XIV century) was quite passive, tensions existed between monarquy and Inqusition when this last one banned in the XIV century the works by Arnau de Vilanova or Raimon LLull, to what the kings of the Aragonese crown opposed. When Fernando 'the catholic' introduced the authoritarian monarchy in Spain...,a radical change in situation was produced. Aware of the social-religious problems that the converted jewish posed, and avid of an Eclessial legitimacy that the absolute power they were looking for required, the monarchs urged the Pope to give a new Inquisitin to the crown of Castilla, that never had had such an institution. In Nov 1478, the pope Sixto IV in his Bulla: 'Exigit sincerus devotionis affectus' gave the 'Catholic Kings' the power of designating two or three bishops or secular or regular priests (Older than 40 years, with a recommendable life, and with academic titles) to exert the role of inquisitors in the towns or Dioceses of their kingdoms. Until october 1483 a true battle was fought between the monarchy and the papacy because of the ecclessial concept the pope had about Inquisition, versus the monarchic aspiration of using the Inquisitorial institution as an instrument of their own power. The first Inquisitors, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de san Martin were erected in september 27, 1480. The first 'Auto de fe' was held in Seville at Februray 6, 1481. Regarding the Aragon kingdom, R Garcia-Carcel remarks the efforts of the catholic King to obtain the stablishment of the new inquisition, as he had to overcome the resistances of converses and the papal reluctance....In April 1482, Sixto IV was forced to change his negative decission of January 1482, and accepted the Inqusition institutionalizaion in the kingdom of Aragon. The pope made several attempts to come back in this decission, but finally, the situation consolidated in October 1483, when Fray Tomás de Torquemada (having jewish ancestry, according to José Meir Estrugo, in: 'Los sefardíes') was designed General Inquisitor for both Castilla and the kingdom of Aragon. From this moment on, R G-C thinks the modern Inquisition was born. For R G-C, the religious factor -specifically 'the jewish problem'- was not decissory for the birth of modern inquisition. Jewish historians, -R G-C continues- are today forthright in considering that converse jewish were assimilated to christianity by the end of XV century.... Mass conversions took place between 1391 and 1415. Inquisition, in the case of persecution of judaism, should have been stablished then, and not almost a century later. About death penalties sentences by Inquisitors, some authors point that in many cases it were transformed into life imprisonment, but in the XIV century, after a mere three years in prison, people having received a death penalty, then a lifelong imprisonment sentence, were able to go out of the prison with just some minor freedom restrictions.-- Jgrosay ( talk) 00:02, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Orthodox people from Italy and Sicily were hunted too. [user:uknown] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.20.157 ( talk) 18:31, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
The office of the Inquisition still exists. When does the source say that it ceased to exist? It actually indicates the contrary. The analogy comparing Russia to the USSR is illogical and hence does not apply. JGabbard ( talk) 02:47, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Which would recommend that the religious people would not write articles on factual matters which heavily impact their faith. People feel even more strongly about their faith that about articles on themselves. Furthermore they tend to have access to a very pre-biased collection of the reference material on the topics, and be, let's say, far more enthusiastic about bridging the gap between their faith and the article from the article's side. 78.60.253.249 ( talk) 16:10, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
It is fairly fully unclear from the sub-article, witchcraft, what it has to do with the main article, Inquisition? 71.90.24.130 ( talk) 13:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
"When a suspect was convicted of unrepentant heresy, the inquisitorial tribunal was required by law to hand the person over to the secular authorities for final sentencing, at which point the penalty would be determined by a magistrate, usually burning at the stake although the penalty varied based on local law.[8][9] The laws were inclusive of proscriptions against certain religious crimes (heresy, etc.), and the punishments included death by burning, although imprisonment for life or banishment would usually be used."
I'm sorry, which is "usual"? And, when? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.90.24.130 ( talk) 14:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
I've seen many protestants quote figures up to the tens of millions. I want to keep the section "Alternative Views" as I think the number is notable enough to be included in the article. Here's some examples of the figures quoted through history [1] [2]
Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 16:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
John, I'm not stating that those are accurate statements. All I'm saying is many to this day use those figures as "proof", therefore the belief is notable enough to be included in some capacity. Surely you can see my point. P.S. The inclusion of some of those quotes which do not reference the inquisition was an honest mistake on my part. Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 17:28, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Then we should adress those points in a fair manner. Problem is, as the article stands, there is a blackout regarding the viewpoint all together. It is my opinion that the section on alternate views is notable enough to warrant a mention. As stated by Ryn78, the usage of those old and exaggerated sources have been used by protestants and other groups for decades. Even Victor Hugo has stated that 5 million were executed! [1] The viewpoint is notable and contentious enough to warrant a mention, IMO. Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 20:05, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Your point? Do you have to be a historian in order to be quoted on wikipedia? How many times do I have to state that I am not saying that the number is accurate? I'm simply presenting that some believe it. That's it. The sections not about facts, or stats even. Its simply about "Alternative Views" Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 03:04, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Guys, I added back the section as there has yet to be a rebuttal to my arguments (as far as I know) Feel free to edit it as you wish. Just please dont takr off the section without discussing it here per wikipedia rules. However I'm open to your arguments, so if you have any please discuss them here.Thanks! Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 18:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Im not in the mood to get in an edit war, but I find the Alternative Views section to be irrelevant when it mentions Victor Hugo. Who is he in relevance to the inquisition Saintliveyourlife33ad ( talk) 19:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
P.S. johnbod, the Plaisted mentioned in the section actually IS the computer science professor. Basic research shows that. You're greatly mistaken. Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 17:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
I recommend Blackgateamericanindian to read up on WP:PILLARS, especially the part about reliable sources, secondary sources and last but not least WP:FRINGE:
"Wikipedia summarizes significant opinions, with representation in proportion to their prominence. A Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is. Claims must be based upon independent reliable sources. If discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, a theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight,[1] and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner".
You need to find historiographical sources that supports that Blaisted is given proportional weight on scholarship on this subject, in order to include a section on him in this article. Fluffing up his inclusion by drawing out the ancient primary sources he quotes in his essay is not a helpful strategy. We rely on modern scholarship as reliable secondary sources for the subject, not 18th century Bible-commentators and other such outdated evidence.
Please refrain from adding this section to the article again. You need to establish a consensus here as to its inclusion, something you have failed to do so far, you being the only one arguing for its inclusion. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 11:02, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
After some further research I can see that David Plaisteds essay is selfpublished. This alone is enough to dismiss it as a source on Wikipedia. But furthermore according to Google Scholar it is cited in only two other sources, one being a completely unrelated ethnographical dissertation (on the Navajo Indians, and the author is not a historian) the other being a Christian apologetic work that wouldn't qualify as a reliable secondary source on Wikipedia either. He is not mentioned at all in any of the current standard works on the subject, hinting that he is not even worth a one sentence rebuttal. To sum up, the essay is selfpublished, its theory is less than fringe and it is not even acknowledged by current scholarship on the subject. There is as such not a single reason that he warrants mention in this article. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 11:36, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Ah! Clever boys! 🌝 Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 20:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The latest edit fails not only WP:NPOV but also WP:SYNTH. What exacly are you trying to say by "key figures who have responsibility for these crimes have the title of saint"? Elizium23 ( talk) 02:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
Not written by me, taken from Criticism of the Catholic Church:
In spite of (relatively rare) instances of torture and wrongful execution, it was still widely considered in Europe to be the fairest (and most merciful) judicial system in Europe at that time, as evidenced by records of people blaspheming in secular courts intentionally for them to be brought before the Inquisition for a more just and fair trial. [1] [2] [3]
Syced ( talk) 07:49, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
References
1624, a young soldier who, when put in the stocks, exclaimed "I renounce God and the saints; devils why don't you come and carry me off?" when duly tried with all formality by the Valladolid tribunal, was discharged with a reprimand and without a sentence.
Prisoners in Spanish secular courts, knowing this would sometimes blaspheme in order to be sent to the courts of the Inquisition where conditions were better.
Compared to other medieval secular courts, the Inquisition was positively enlightened.
Please, explain why was the Russian Inquisition deleted.-- 87.126.170.224 ( talk) 13:11, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Grossetesse, bishop of Lincoln, is quoted here as defining heresy as "an opinion created by human reason, founded on the Scriptures, contrary to the teachings of Christ, publicly avowed and obstinately held," and the citation is to an edition of Matthew Paris's Chronicle maiorum; however, that source actually reads: "Heresias est sententia humano sensu electa, Scriptura Sacrae contraria, palam edocta, pertinaciter defensa."
The English version cited above is ubiquitous and appears in many books, etc. when searching the Internet. However, all the citations are either circular or seem to point back to the 1872 edition of Paris which reads as above.
Unless there is a different citation for the source of English translation as above, i.e. a different quote from the bishop, it's obviously an incorrect translation (an extension of it's meaning really) on it's face, as is the text that follows in the Wiki entry (does not apply to Muslims and Jews, etc.) at least inasmuch as it claims the conclusion is drawn from the quotation of Grossetesse--even though the conclusion is true (the definition of heresy in the common English translation attributed to Grossetesse rings truer in general.)
What to do? This feels a little like "original research," seeing as almost everything that I find online and in books cites the Chronicle and quotes the faulty English version above, but it's objectively incorrect, unless Grossetesse makes the equivalent statement to the English version in some other place, which I can't find.
PavelCristovic ( talk) 7 May 2019
The section on Statistics is totally misleading only sighting some of the revealed court trial numbers, it fails to mention the countless villages across Spain, France and most of Europe which were burnt to the ground over this 600 year period with most of the occupants killed this need to be added to the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:2E4C:1700:8B3:E5B7:BBC7:BFAB ( talk) 01:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Holy Inquisition. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hildeoc ( talk) 12:57, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
Was the Council of Toulouse run primarily by the Dominicans, or the Inquisition? Elizium23 ( talk) 09:37, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Can we get some discussion of the degree of accuracy of Edgar Allan Poe’s short story “The Pit and the Pendulum”? For better or worse, it has been read by millions, and is part of the history of the subject, if nothing else. 31.94.73.86 ( talk) 00:57, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Inquisition article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
|
|
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is it possible to provide an entimated range of deaths from the whole series of historical Inquisitions added together? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.69.81 ( talk) 00:08, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
No it isn't hsince the actual death toll was much smaller than we might imagine. Of course the Inquisition was a pretty reprehensible institution but that was just a result of the age it was living in. The death toll for killing heretics was much bigger if you consider the actions of the various states, kings, dukes and other lords than if you just look at the Inquisition because basically in those times heresy was regarded as a crime against the STATE, as treson towards your lord, pretty much as terrorism is today. That was the general opinion at the time. Of course it's stupid but that's what people used to believe back then. As you might imagine, the various kings and lords had little concern if a particular heretic or somebody who was just accused of heresy recanted or not or if he was actually guilty or not. Just as it would happen with an accusation of terrorism today, one you're suspected, it's over. Of course the Church didn't really like that. Anyway you might want to listen to the lectures of Thomas F. Madden from the University of Missouri, St. Louis, or really read any SCIENTIFIC historical work by a modern historian (but I really mean a scientific historical work nut just something written for purposes of popularisation of science you know, not something written for everyone, because those things are afraid to challange popular views today, sometimes at the expense of the truth.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 22:36, 27 August 2010 (UTC) well if you add all the estimates it would probably add up to 75,000 + —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.224.63.184 ( talk) 02:15, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
An editor has deleted without comment this statement "In practice, the Inquisition would not pronounce sentence, but handed over convicted heretics to secular authorities." Since it was not footnoted, I didn't revert it. But it is true, of course, and needs reinsertion whenever someone can come up with a footnote. Thanks. Student7 ( talk) 12:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
It is emphatically correct that it was the secular courts who administered the (more vile of) the punishments. The Inquisition Tribunal, IF they found someone guilty of heresy, they could only excommunicate that person. Which didn't really mean much. I mean various kings were excommunicated all the time without much consequence. The thing is that the decision of an Inquisition Tribunal was regarded as full conclusive evidence in a criminal court (run by the king, duke or another lord). And in those times the various states and their rulers (kings, dukes, counts, other lords) regarded heresy as treason against them, as a crime against the state. And also the popular opinion was really geared against it, it was almost considered as dangerous as we view terrorism today. Of course it sounds silly and it actually is kind of really stupid but that used to be the consensus at the time. As you might imagine for a king or lord, once someone was suspected of heresy they would have loved to burn them without any further fuss (pretty much as it happens with terrorism today) and they didn't really like the Inquisition since they could actually establish that the guy wasn't guilty. In any case the death penalty was a punishmnent pronounced by the criminal courts of the crown/state/lords for heresy and the punishment was then administered by the state/lord.
SOURCE: "Heaven or Heresy: A History of the Inquisition" by Thomas F. Madden, the Chair of the History Department at Saint Louis University in St. Louis, Missouri (he actually has a wikipedia page and the book is available as an audiobook and it at least used to be available for free) —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Omulurimaru (
talk •
contribs)
22:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
One paragraph says that the church felt threatened by what it perceived as the schism of the church. I'm not sure that the Protestants did not perceive this in a similar fashion. Luther felt (probably correctly at the time) that he had to take true believers away from the pollution of Rome. Henry VIII was just doing it for political reasons. In the case of the latter, he never thought of the result as any more than "The Catholic Church of England", a straight derivative of the RC Church. Student7 ( talk) 18:28, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Quite true, the Protestants perceived it in quite a similar fashion and in fact many Protestants had their own Inquision in order to find those who held the heresy of Papism. But arguably there were other Protestants who simply dismantled the Inquisitions in thier areas. This was getting much more on the side of a political struggle rather than an inquest by a State or Church authority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 01:34, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Dear friends, are there any figures about the number of victims? Regards
·
לערי ריינהארט·
T·
m:
Th·
T·
email me·
01:59, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
What is not considered is, how many died during questioning, which would evade the execution count by some amount, possibly substantial, due to techniques utilized. Wzrd1 ( talk) 05:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
For complete and unpartial information, it would be necesary to reflect victims from another countries. In it's actual state, it seems that all the victims proceeded mainly from Spain, when France or UK had very worse numbers by habitants. User:josevzs 18:12, 03 Sep 2020 (UTC)
1. Estimated number of victims. Why is that information not on this page? In this link http://www.christianityandhumanrights.com/_witches.html it is said that the estimate for Europe as a whole is 2,000,000 million victims. 2. That 'Trivia' section with references to Monty Python or films, etc., is absolutely irrelevant. 3. Shouldn't these mass murders be considered genocide? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.59.12.149 ( talk) 23:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm afraid I made a mistake by saying 'genocide' when what I meant was 'massacre'. Anyway, thanks for the reply. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.59.12.149 ( talk) 00:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
And by the way, why is the very first external link to a page that tries to justify the Inquisition 'because it was the morality of the time?'. I find that extremely offensive.
Particularly one of the so-called Myths caught my attention: Myth: The hideous procedures of the Inquisition were unjust, cruel, inhumane, and barbaric. The Inquisition roasted their victims' feet over fire, bricked them up into walls to languish for all eternity, smashed their joints with hammers, and flayed them on wheels.
Reality: Despite the compelling Gothic fictions, the evidence leads us to a wholly different conclusion. The procedures of the Inquisition are well known through a whole series of papal bulls and other authoritative documents, but mainly through such formularies and manuals as were prepared by St. Raymond Peñaforte (c1180-1275), the great Spanish canonist, and Bernard Gui (1261-1331), one of the most celebrated inquisitors of the early 14th Century. The Inquisitors were certainly interrogators, but they were theological experts who followed the rules and instructiones meticulously, and were dismissed and punished when they showed too little regard for justice. When, for example, in 1223 Robert of Bourger gleefully announced his aim to burn heretics, not to convert them, he was immediately suspended and imprisoned for life by Gregory IX.16
The inquisitorial procedures were surprisingly just and even lenient. In contrast with other tribunals throughout Europe at the time, they appear as almost enlightened.
I mean, seriously. This is just blatant lying. The people were burnt alive at stakes. And if you ever visit certain museums all over Europe you'll find examples of the wonderful torture devices that were used, such as Catherine Wheels, racks and whatnot.
I mean, adding such ridiculous link as the first one (or just adding it) is an insult to the readers. And it's a lie. Go grab a History book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.59.12.149 ( talk) 01:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
We could go on and on and never be in accordance. These people were Christians, with the exact same morality that you have now if you are a Christian. Saying that it was normal back then is like saying it would be normal right now. It amazes me that we think that people of other eras were dumb and that we are the very best people that have ever existed, fairer and better than anyone before us. In fact, secular ethics came a long time before Christianity thanks to the Greek thinkers, and some of them seem pretty pacifistic and logical even today. I don't think it's the morality of the time as much as just the corrupted morality of those who were in power at the time: the Church and the State.
Plus, following that simple logic, you would be saying that the Holocaust was okay, because it was also the morality of the people of the time. Terrorist attacks are also okay because they are the morality of those who commit them, and so on. You know, because these things are relatively normal and acceptable nowadays, as we all know. I accept them as perfectly valid. Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.59.12.149 ( talk) 17:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
"It was not, however, the way of the world, while in contrast, the things that went on during the inquisition were! Again, that's part of the point!" I think it's sad that you try to convince yourself about what you're saying with that lame excuse. However I won't argue anymore. Keep telling that to yourself.
Look, guys, no one is trying to excuse the inquisition here. But as historians, using the scientific method, we have to get to the truth disregarding all other factors. What we have to do is go read the original historical sources (that were written at the time) or scientific material based on those (which is arguably boring since it's scientific; but the stuff written by popular writers for purposes of popularising history is based on secondary or tertiary sources and therefore is bound to get some facts wrong). First of all there was no such thing as one inquisition. The Inquisition was firstly a legal practice equivalent to what we would call today an inquiry or inquest. Over time this practice gave birth to 3 types of institutions that dealt with finding out heresy. These institutions did not pronounce punishments other than excommunication.
Thus the Spanish Inquisitions went wildly against the converts with the aim of basically confiscating their property. They could not go against the Jews since Jews were not Christian. So it all ended when Ferdinand decided to expell all the Jews (roughly half of which decided that it was better to convert than be expelled - of course a large number of those lived as Crypto-Jews, in secret). So you see the truth is much more complex than common belief today, since history is not just a story.
Of course for various reasons the Inquisition today is viewed by most of the people in a different way: most people believe that is was this monstruous intitution. And again it wasn't something "good" but then again it was by no account what most people today believe it was. Unfortunately most people today are not historians. Historians, just like any other scientists must apply the scientific method of research when they study history. And for understanding any phenomenon in history we apply the same basic questions: why? how? where? when? And we go to the original sources written in those times. We're sorry the truth is different than the popularly held myth. But the popular opinion about the Inquisition, like any myth, is based upon some core truth but which is blown out of proportion becasue most people don't want to hear boring science, they want to hear an entertaining story.
Another point that should be made is that most of us really have no notion about just how bloody and cruel those times really were. For example torture had been used in criminal proceedings - ANY kind of criminal proceeding, be it about theft, murder, treason or heresy - since basically the Ancient world. It was part of the (originally pagan) Roman justice system. Of course it wasn't applied indefinitely it could be applied only twice and for short periods of time (like 5-15 minutes). And it wasn't a punishment it wasn't something done to punish someone. Rather it was a part of the investigation technique used in any crime -- remember they didn't have forensics back then. Anyways someone said here that we cannot judge that society, back then, by our standards. That's not really true: the correct, scientific attitude here should be that we can't judge that society at all since it's not our job. As historians we should reasearch and relate the truth in a scientific manner and leave the morality judgements to journalists and priests and atheism appologists and the like. We're just here to relate the facts. And this is probably what this Wiki article ought to be about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru ( talk • contribs) 01:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I have to admit the beginning of this article has me confused a little bit by its emphasis on torture. It seems to be presenting it as something unique or new that was championed by the Inquisition, when this was certainly not the case. Perhaps this should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.43.185.150 ( talk) 18:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes Foxe wrote a book, sort of accurate by modern day standards and very pov in order to inflame public opinion against Catholics. The English business was more of a power struggle between factions as England often had up until about William and Mary or so. Putting a religious tinge on it, was simply their way of saying that the incumbent king was great or a louse. Easier if you can decide based on what church you attend instead of more complex factors! Neither side paid much attention to religious leaders abroad, much less the pope, or Martin Luther or anybody else. Not sure it should be featured here. More of a canard IMO. Student7 ( talk) 21:35, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Saying "although similar institutions existed in the Protestant church" is wholly inaccurate.
Nothing comparable existed. Wars between Protestant and Catholic states in the age of chivalry are not comparable to religious violence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.57.219.109 ( talk) 18:38, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Student7,, keep on studying. Your view is highly POV and incorrect, according to the nuns that educated ME! People believed in curses and evil spirits that could be conjured, which would afflict the victim or more commonly, the victim's goats, sheep, fowl or groin or any permutation thereof, hence the witchcraft trials, which were LOCAL. Hence, underrepresented in Vatican archives until far later. Wzrd1 ( talk) 05:52, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
The link to "Spain and the Spaniard" is a bit much. It is highly POV. I think it should go into the deletion bin/recycling bin/trash bin/rubbish heap.
Devilishlyhandsome (
talk)
17:13, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The statement in the article that "It started in the 12th century, with the introduction of torture in the persecution of heresy" is actually erroneous.
The history of Ammianus Marcellinus attests the existence of Christian state inquisitions during the rule of Constantius II, c.350 CE, at the city of Scythopolis. See specifically Chapter XII and XIII-XIV of the Book XIX of Ammianus' Res Gestae:
[quote]...as accusations extended more widely, involving numbers without end in their snares, many perished; some with their bodies mangled on the rack; others were condemned to death and confiscation of their goods; while Paulus kept on inventing groundless accusations, as if he had a store of lies on which to draw, and suggesting various pretences for injuring people, so that on his nod, it may he said, the safety of every one in the place depended. For if any one wore on his neck a charm against the quartan ague or any other disease, or if by any information laid by his ill-wishers he was accused of having passed by a sepulchre at nightfall, and therefore of being a sorcerer, and one who dealt in the horrors of tombs and the vain mockeries of the shades which haunt them, he was found guilty and condemned to death. [/quote]
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.105.225 ( talk) 06:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
I've just read the NY Times obituary of Benzion Netanyahu. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/01/world/middleeast/benzion-netanyahu-dies-at-102.html?hp . It references his book "The Origins of the Inquisition in 15th Century France" - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679410651/ref=kinw_rke_rti_1 . From the obituary and from the book reviews quoted on Amazon, it looks like this is a major scholarly study of the Spanish Inquisition, though its thesis is apparently controversial. Shouldn't this book be mentioned in the Bibliography section here? I'm inclined to add it. Is there any reason not to? Omc ( talk) 07:34, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Actually, this citation, by Yale Law School, seems to suggest just the opposite. Student7 ( talk) 20:30, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
This quote from the "reputation(s)" section of the article is a pretty blatantly POV piece of apologist crap: "With the sharpening of debate and of conflict between the Protestant Reformation and the Catholic Counter-Reformation, Protestant societies came to see/use the Inquisition as a terrifying "Other" trope,[24] while staunch Catholics regarded the Holy Office as a necessary bulwark against the spread of reprehensible heresies. So it is necessary to realise evidence shows that those involved with the inquisition sincerely thought that they were doing God's work in extirpating what they considered heresy and opposition to the Roman Church. The very title of the humiliating spectacles of the 'auto-da-fe' which means 'act of faith' shows this. Their acts were a consequence of their beliefs rather than any initial pathology." Uh, okay, so should we give the Taliban a free pass because they believe they're doing God's work? This piece has little relevance to the subject matter because it's obviously implied that the atrocities committed during the Inquisition were due to the perpetrator's religious beliefs. If no one can come up with a valid reason not to in the next week or so, I'm removing this section entirely. It's unnecessary and is nothing more than a weak attempt to make an excuse for atrocities committed by the Church. 192.26.212.203 ( talk) 17:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Auto da fe is not Spanish, it's Portuguese. -- Jidu Boite ( talk) 08:14, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
According to Ricardo García-Cárcel, 'La Inquisición', ISBN: 84-7969-011-9, 'The role of monarchy in the Spanish Inquisition between...(XIII and XIV century) was quite passive, tensions existed between monarquy and Inqusition when this last one banned in the XIV century the works by Arnau de Vilanova or Raimon LLull, to what the kings of the Aragonese crown opposed. When Fernando 'the catholic' introduced the authoritarian monarchy in Spain...,a radical change in situation was produced. Aware of the social-religious problems that the converted jewish posed, and avid of an Eclessial legitimacy that the absolute power they were looking for required, the monarchs urged the Pope to give a new Inquisitin to the crown of Castilla, that never had had such an institution. In Nov 1478, the pope Sixto IV in his Bulla: 'Exigit sincerus devotionis affectus' gave the 'Catholic Kings' the power of designating two or three bishops or secular or regular priests (Older than 40 years, with a recommendable life, and with academic titles) to exert the role of inquisitors in the towns or Dioceses of their kingdoms. Until october 1483 a true battle was fought between the monarchy and the papacy because of the ecclessial concept the pope had about Inquisition, versus the monarchic aspiration of using the Inquisitorial institution as an instrument of their own power. The first Inquisitors, Miguel de Morillo and Juan de san Martin were erected in september 27, 1480. The first 'Auto de fe' was held in Seville at Februray 6, 1481. Regarding the Aragon kingdom, R Garcia-Carcel remarks the efforts of the catholic King to obtain the stablishment of the new inquisition, as he had to overcome the resistances of converses and the papal reluctance....In April 1482, Sixto IV was forced to change his negative decission of January 1482, and accepted the Inqusition institutionalizaion in the kingdom of Aragon. The pope made several attempts to come back in this decission, but finally, the situation consolidated in October 1483, when Fray Tomás de Torquemada (having jewish ancestry, according to José Meir Estrugo, in: 'Los sefardíes') was designed General Inquisitor for both Castilla and the kingdom of Aragon. From this moment on, R G-C thinks the modern Inquisition was born. For R G-C, the religious factor -specifically 'the jewish problem'- was not decissory for the birth of modern inquisition. Jewish historians, -R G-C continues- are today forthright in considering that converse jewish were assimilated to christianity by the end of XV century.... Mass conversions took place between 1391 and 1415. Inquisition, in the case of persecution of judaism, should have been stablished then, and not almost a century later. About death penalties sentences by Inquisitors, some authors point that in many cases it were transformed into life imprisonment, but in the XIV century, after a mere three years in prison, people having received a death penalty, then a lifelong imprisonment sentence, were able to go out of the prison with just some minor freedom restrictions.-- Jgrosay ( talk) 00:02, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Orthodox people from Italy and Sicily were hunted too. [user:uknown] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.140.20.157 ( talk) 18:31, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
The office of the Inquisition still exists. When does the source say that it ceased to exist? It actually indicates the contrary. The analogy comparing Russia to the USSR is illogical and hence does not apply. JGabbard ( talk) 02:47, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Which would recommend that the religious people would not write articles on factual matters which heavily impact their faith. People feel even more strongly about their faith that about articles on themselves. Furthermore they tend to have access to a very pre-biased collection of the reference material on the topics, and be, let's say, far more enthusiastic about bridging the gap between their faith and the article from the article's side. 78.60.253.249 ( talk) 16:10, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
It is fairly fully unclear from the sub-article, witchcraft, what it has to do with the main article, Inquisition? 71.90.24.130 ( talk) 13:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
"When a suspect was convicted of unrepentant heresy, the inquisitorial tribunal was required by law to hand the person over to the secular authorities for final sentencing, at which point the penalty would be determined by a magistrate, usually burning at the stake although the penalty varied based on local law.[8][9] The laws were inclusive of proscriptions against certain religious crimes (heresy, etc.), and the punishments included death by burning, although imprisonment for life or banishment would usually be used."
I'm sorry, which is "usual"? And, when? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.90.24.130 ( talk) 14:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
I've seen many protestants quote figures up to the tens of millions. I want to keep the section "Alternative Views" as I think the number is notable enough to be included in the article. Here's some examples of the figures quoted through history [1] [2]
Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 16:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
John, I'm not stating that those are accurate statements. All I'm saying is many to this day use those figures as "proof", therefore the belief is notable enough to be included in some capacity. Surely you can see my point. P.S. The inclusion of some of those quotes which do not reference the inquisition was an honest mistake on my part. Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 17:28, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Then we should adress those points in a fair manner. Problem is, as the article stands, there is a blackout regarding the viewpoint all together. It is my opinion that the section on alternate views is notable enough to warrant a mention. As stated by Ryn78, the usage of those old and exaggerated sources have been used by protestants and other groups for decades. Even Victor Hugo has stated that 5 million were executed! [1] The viewpoint is notable and contentious enough to warrant a mention, IMO. Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 20:05, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
Your point? Do you have to be a historian in order to be quoted on wikipedia? How many times do I have to state that I am not saying that the number is accurate? I'm simply presenting that some believe it. That's it. The sections not about facts, or stats even. Its simply about "Alternative Views" Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 03:04, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Guys, I added back the section as there has yet to be a rebuttal to my arguments (as far as I know) Feel free to edit it as you wish. Just please dont takr off the section without discussing it here per wikipedia rules. However I'm open to your arguments, so if you have any please discuss them here.Thanks! Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 18:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Im not in the mood to get in an edit war, but I find the Alternative Views section to be irrelevant when it mentions Victor Hugo. Who is he in relevance to the inquisition Saintliveyourlife33ad ( talk) 19:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
P.S. johnbod, the Plaisted mentioned in the section actually IS the computer science professor. Basic research shows that. You're greatly mistaken. Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 17:05, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
I recommend Blackgateamericanindian to read up on WP:PILLARS, especially the part about reliable sources, secondary sources and last but not least WP:FRINGE:
"Wikipedia summarizes significant opinions, with representation in proportion to their prominence. A Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is. Claims must be based upon independent reliable sources. If discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, a theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight,[1] and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner".
You need to find historiographical sources that supports that Blaisted is given proportional weight on scholarship on this subject, in order to include a section on him in this article. Fluffing up his inclusion by drawing out the ancient primary sources he quotes in his essay is not a helpful strategy. We rely on modern scholarship as reliable secondary sources for the subject, not 18th century Bible-commentators and other such outdated evidence.
Please refrain from adding this section to the article again. You need to establish a consensus here as to its inclusion, something you have failed to do so far, you being the only one arguing for its inclusion. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 11:02, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
After some further research I can see that David Plaisteds essay is selfpublished. This alone is enough to dismiss it as a source on Wikipedia. But furthermore according to Google Scholar it is cited in only two other sources, one being a completely unrelated ethnographical dissertation (on the Navajo Indians, and the author is not a historian) the other being a Christian apologetic work that wouldn't qualify as a reliable secondary source on Wikipedia either. He is not mentioned at all in any of the current standard works on the subject, hinting that he is not even worth a one sentence rebuttal. To sum up, the essay is selfpublished, its theory is less than fringe and it is not even acknowledged by current scholarship on the subject. There is as such not a single reason that he warrants mention in this article. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 11:36, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Ah! Clever boys! 🌝 Blackgateamericanindian ( talk) 20:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The latest edit fails not only WP:NPOV but also WP:SYNTH. What exacly are you trying to say by "key figures who have responsibility for these crimes have the title of saint"? Elizium23 ( talk) 02:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
Not written by me, taken from Criticism of the Catholic Church:
In spite of (relatively rare) instances of torture and wrongful execution, it was still widely considered in Europe to be the fairest (and most merciful) judicial system in Europe at that time, as evidenced by records of people blaspheming in secular courts intentionally for them to be brought before the Inquisition for a more just and fair trial. [1] [2] [3]
Syced ( talk) 07:49, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
References
1624, a young soldier who, when put in the stocks, exclaimed "I renounce God and the saints; devils why don't you come and carry me off?" when duly tried with all formality by the Valladolid tribunal, was discharged with a reprimand and without a sentence.
Prisoners in Spanish secular courts, knowing this would sometimes blaspheme in order to be sent to the courts of the Inquisition where conditions were better.
Compared to other medieval secular courts, the Inquisition was positively enlightened.
Please, explain why was the Russian Inquisition deleted.-- 87.126.170.224 ( talk) 13:11, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
Grossetesse, bishop of Lincoln, is quoted here as defining heresy as "an opinion created by human reason, founded on the Scriptures, contrary to the teachings of Christ, publicly avowed and obstinately held," and the citation is to an edition of Matthew Paris's Chronicle maiorum; however, that source actually reads: "Heresias est sententia humano sensu electa, Scriptura Sacrae contraria, palam edocta, pertinaciter defensa."
The English version cited above is ubiquitous and appears in many books, etc. when searching the Internet. However, all the citations are either circular or seem to point back to the 1872 edition of Paris which reads as above.
Unless there is a different citation for the source of English translation as above, i.e. a different quote from the bishop, it's obviously an incorrect translation (an extension of it's meaning really) on it's face, as is the text that follows in the Wiki entry (does not apply to Muslims and Jews, etc.) at least inasmuch as it claims the conclusion is drawn from the quotation of Grossetesse--even though the conclusion is true (the definition of heresy in the common English translation attributed to Grossetesse rings truer in general.)
What to do? This feels a little like "original research," seeing as almost everything that I find online and in books cites the Chronicle and quotes the faulty English version above, but it's objectively incorrect, unless Grossetesse makes the equivalent statement to the English version in some other place, which I can't find.
PavelCristovic ( talk) 7 May 2019
The section on Statistics is totally misleading only sighting some of the revealed court trial numbers, it fails to mention the countless villages across Spain, France and most of Europe which were burnt to the ground over this 600 year period with most of the occupants killed this need to be added to the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:2E4C:1700:8B3:E5B7:BBC7:BFAB ( talk) 01:24, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Holy Inquisition. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Hildeoc ( talk) 12:57, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
Was the Council of Toulouse run primarily by the Dominicans, or the Inquisition? Elizium23 ( talk) 09:37, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Can we get some discussion of the degree of accuracy of Edgar Allan Poe’s short story “The Pit and the Pendulum”? For better or worse, it has been read by millions, and is part of the history of the subject, if nothing else. 31.94.73.86 ( talk) 00:57, 9 December 2023 (UTC)