I am going to flag the statement "Inorganic compounds are not covalently bonded they have more of ionic character than covalent character.". This is not grammatically correct, and I somehow doubt all inorganic compounds are non-covalent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IronSphere97 ( talk • contribs) 23:21, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
Somehow this page was upside down - it defined Inorganic compounds as though they were organic (carbon containing)
Checking the history I see that it was me that wrote the original. Must have mentally slid between talking organic and inorganic compounds. i'm such a dumb ass. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.4.231.18 ( talk) 14:48, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Is this a hard & fast rule? I can believe that ALL compounds with a C-H bond are organic, but I do not believe that ALL compounds WITHOUT a C-H bond are inorganic. For example, oxalic acid, even uric acid would be under this definition be inorganic! I subscribe to the view given in the inorganic chemistry page that organics are defined as "based on carbon", but the division between the two fields is not absolute. I'd like to get others' views before I edit this page further. Walkerma 00:50, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Agreed: we'll find ourselves in a vortex of "definisionisms" if we try to get too absolute about the boundaries of fields. Fullerenes are another gray area. And the organometallic chemists like to include the metal carbonyls. And on and on. The gray areas are not that overwhelming that they skew the articles. -- Smokefoot 19:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree as well. Typically the way I was taught was that roughly the deviding line falls along the lines that Organic compounds are compounds based upon carbon, usually containing H, O, N, sometimes S, and the various halides. Whereas inorganic and organometallic chemistry typically focuses on the other atoms especially the metal atoms. -- PedroDaGr8 16:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Secondly it says "Compositions of matter can be divided.." I think this is horribly worded. It would be better worded as "Chemical compounds can roughly be divided into to major categories." Otherwise it seems as if we are dealing with a more physical system. -- PedroDaGr8 16:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The distinction between organic and inorganic is only an historical artifact and there is no hard and fast rule (but certainly requiring C-H bonds for organic compounds is nonsense!) I've updated the article accordingly. The best definition of "inorganic carbon-containing compound" that I have found is "carbon compounds that were considered inorganic before Wohler's time, because they could be obtained from 'inorganic' (e.g., mineral) sources". Of course, one has to be flexible and extrapolate in some cases. Fullerenes are considered inorganic because they an elemental substance (although not really a compound). Derivatives of fullerenes are a gray area. -- Itub 08:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence of this section says: "Many compounds that contain carbon are considered organic; for example, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, carbonates ..." Shouldn't that be "inorganic"? Dcbrc2 ( talk) 14:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The definition in the lead is incorrect, because minerals are of biological origin. Please refer to minerals and their definitions. Lowenstam (1981), for example, states the following: [1]
This contradicts the lead to this article: "Traditionally, inorganic compounds are considered to be of a mineral, not biological origin." It is my understanding that an inorganic compound is traditionally one that lacks a carbon molecule, not in functional contact with a living being, and originates from processes other than metabolism. Thompsma ( talk) 04:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
I suppose it's a matter of context and convention, like how petroleum is considered a mineral resource. To chemists, this traditional distinction is between what you can extract out of plants or animals or their waste products, and between what you can extract out of the earth. -- Rifleman 82 ( talk) 04:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I agree with the recent edits. The minerals people might have opinions of their own, but a handful of articles taken out of context (I see no chemistry journals) should not be used to redefine inorganic chemistry.
The distinction between organic and inorganic compounds is fuzzy, is to a certain extent arbitrary, and is influenced by history and tradition. To many chemists, an inorganic compound may be easy to identify, but is hard to define. Does an inorganic compound have C-H bonds or are derivatives of alkanes? Usually not. But are carbon-containing compounds lacking C-H bonds inorganic? Hard to say. Do inorganic compounds have no relation with life (as your latest version suggests)? Hard to say too. Are the following compounds organic or inorganic?
To muddy the water, organometallic chemistry is traditionally defined as the chemistry of the metal-carbon bond. Yet metal-carbonyl chemistry is considered organometallic chemistry, whereas metal cyanides are traditionally considered coordination compounds. Some contemporary chemists even consider metal-phosphine chemistry within the realm of organometallic chemistry, despite the lack of a M-C bond. That said, organometallic chemistry and coordination chemistry are traditionally branches of inorganic chemistry.
A further comment on your latest revision: "lattice" might be a poor choice of word. How about "skeleton"? Lattice implies a crystalline structure where you probably intend to mean "backbone".
I'll drop a note at WT:CHEMISTRY, and see if they have anything to comment here. -- Rifleman 82 ( talk) 05:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
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First, we don't throw out traditional definitions simply because there exists some debate in current or recent literature - as this seems the thrust of the suggested changes. There has been some similar changes made on the
mineral article - redefining based on recent publications. I'm not very comfortable with those changes, but haven't yet read the refs provided - I'm out in the boonies with no easy access to the papers cited.
It seems some with biology backgrounds both here and on the mineral article want to redefine things to emphasize their viewpoint. All that said, of course organisms are involved in "making minerals" and other inorganic compounds, but the vast majority of earth minerals have never been aquainted with an organism. So ... mebe some
WP:Undue weight at play literally - considering the vast bulk of crustal and mantle minerals.
... it is stated clearly in the peer-reviewed literature that minerals are of biological origin. Yes, some/many minerals are of bio origin, but the vast majority aren't. The definition in the lead is incorrect, because minerals are of biological origin. is a misstatement - no - some minerals are of bio origin.
Vsmith (
talk) 19:42, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Ecologists can have whatever opinion they want, and that's fine. But it is not their place to define inorganic chemistry. The divisions in chemistry are determined through custom and usage. It is not the custom of chemists to define any compound containing carbon as an organic compound. Is carbon dioxide an organic compound? Is tetracarbonylnickel(0) inorganic? -- Rifleman 82 ( talk) 20:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
References
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I propose that the link to
This
level-4 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
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- be removed. Organic or inorganic chemistry does not have prime dominion over the definition of what constitutes an inorganic compound - that would be ludicrous. This is wikipedia and as such it must encompass an interdisciplinary approach. If I'm writing in an article on nutrient cycle, for example, and want to put a link to an inorganic compound - it does not make sense to have separate pages for the chemists version of what this means and for the biologists version of what this means. It goes under a single heading and I think we are smart enough to deal with the kinds of challenges that this poses.
Most biology textbooks refer to inorganic compounds in the following way: "An inorganic compound is oxidized by lithotrophs to serve as electron donor for respiration and biosynthesis, whereas an organic molecule serves these functions in organotrophs." [7] That is a very specific example - but I included it because it refers to the oxidation process. Other biology texts state something like this: "An inorganic compound is a compound that does not have both carbon and hydrogen atoms bonded together within the molecule." [8] Every organic chemistry textbook (that I can locate) states that any molecule containing carbon is an organic compound. I am unable to find a single reference and nobody has been able to provide a reference to a reliable source that would support the current claim that an inorganic molecule is of mineral origin. Moreover, this creates a contradiction with the literature stemming back for over a hundred years, because there are many kinds of minerals that are of biological origin (e.g., H. A., Lowenstam (1981). "Minerals formed by organisms". Science. 211 (4487): 1126–1131. doi: 10.1126/science.7008198. JSTOR 1685216. PMID 7008198.).
Therefore, I propose the following:
I am completely open to debate on this so long as people provide sources to support their claims. The published literature shows that the distinction based on a mineral has to go. Thompsma ( talk) 22:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Thompsma ( talk) 19:09, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Seems we may be going at this somewhat "bass ackwards". The new lead has 7 refs whereas the remainder of the article has only two. Seems the article should be developed coherently (it's currently somewhat a haphazard mess) and then write a lead that summarizes the article and leaves the referencing to the body. But ... don't look at me :)
Now to the discussion at hand. I'm quite OK with shifting the traditional "mineral" to traditional "inanimate" - that works and solves part of the current discussion confusion. However the proposed (just above) Inorganic compounds lack carbon and hydrogen atoms and are synthesized by the agency of geological systems. seems lacking a bit or maybe a couple bits.
Further, Some...may consider atmospheric CO2 as an organic compound -- who are these ecospherians? :) And what about good old water? As water is involved in bio reactions (or ecospheric), does that mean all water-bearing (hydrous) compounds or hydroxide compounds are organic? Vsmith ( talk) 03:50, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
References
And so, because the lede and definitions portions of this article remain unsettled since the discussion taking place in 2011, I have added a "dispute" tag and an "expert needed" tag. The aim is to resolve the fact that the current definitions and content rely on limited sources and so may not be accurate, scholarly, or encyclopedic. The work appearing above, in the preceding Talk sections, is far better than the current simplistic, and outdated definition-as-negation and geologic discussion that opens the current article. Finally, the analysis of texts that do and do not provide definitions is WP:OR (and failed OR at that, because those texts do contain inherent definitions, even if not easily gleaned). Help, Inorg chemists! Le PRof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 19:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Adding an image of the periodic table, and adding a new opening sentence to the lede, and integrating it, so that it is consistent with the IOChem article and with real chemical practice. All I can do today. Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 20:44, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The bulky periodic table has got to go! It takes up way too much space for what it contributes (showing that most elements aren't carbon), and distracts from the main message by its size. A link would suffice.
I noticed a periodic table of a more suitable style at Compounds_of_carbon#Organic_compounds. Unfortunately, that one illustrates the opposite concept -- namely organic compounds.
89.217.9.26 ( talk) 21:11, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
The article is incoherent scraps. While I understand there are several fuzzy overlapping definitions, it would be useful if they were crisply presented and contrasted -- and cleaned up a bit in the process! Unfortunately it seems that the needed synthesis does not appear as a coherent presentation out in the literature, so we get this hodgepodge instead.
In general, I liked the discussion of organic versus inorganic compounds (of carbon) in the Compounds of carbon article better than the one here. Since (evidently) all sources agree that an organic compound must contain carbon, the discussion in the carbon article has the potential to provide a complete answer to the question. 89.217.9.26 ( talk) 21:10, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree with LeProf above, the German Wikipedia article he cites is a good model. It has a section entitled "Anorganische_Stoffe" -- see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorganische_Chemie#Anorganische_Stoffe -- that simply lists the exceptions (inorganic carbon compounds) by group. It draws a clear distinction between the historical motivation and the current meaning. (Perhaps following a German tradition of officially erasing old language, but in chemistry this makes sense.) 89.217.19.149 ( talk) 08:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Magnetite, which is an inorganic compound, is found in brain of birds and human, and also in some (magnetotactic) bacteria. Calcite, aragonite, vaterite - all are inorganic and precipitated by organism in shells for a purpose. Eudialytos ( talk) 19:11, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
What??? I'm here reading about it so it is of particular interest. Seriously ... what kind of a statement is that? Not of particular interest to who? Where are the details of the poll which determined it is of no particulr interest? Etc. I think this should be removed? FillsHerTease ( talk) 12:34, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
The companion article on Wöhler synthesis declares this story an absolute myth. — MaxEnt 19:01, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
I am going to flag the statement "Inorganic compounds are not covalently bonded they have more of ionic character than covalent character.". This is not grammatically correct, and I somehow doubt all inorganic compounds are non-covalent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IronSphere97 ( talk • contribs) 23:21, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
Somehow this page was upside down - it defined Inorganic compounds as though they were organic (carbon containing)
Checking the history I see that it was me that wrote the original. Must have mentally slid between talking organic and inorganic compounds. i'm such a dumb ass. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.4.231.18 ( talk) 14:48, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Is this a hard & fast rule? I can believe that ALL compounds with a C-H bond are organic, but I do not believe that ALL compounds WITHOUT a C-H bond are inorganic. For example, oxalic acid, even uric acid would be under this definition be inorganic! I subscribe to the view given in the inorganic chemistry page that organics are defined as "based on carbon", but the division between the two fields is not absolute. I'd like to get others' views before I edit this page further. Walkerma 00:50, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Agreed: we'll find ourselves in a vortex of "definisionisms" if we try to get too absolute about the boundaries of fields. Fullerenes are another gray area. And the organometallic chemists like to include the metal carbonyls. And on and on. The gray areas are not that overwhelming that they skew the articles. -- Smokefoot 19:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree as well. Typically the way I was taught was that roughly the deviding line falls along the lines that Organic compounds are compounds based upon carbon, usually containing H, O, N, sometimes S, and the various halides. Whereas inorganic and organometallic chemistry typically focuses on the other atoms especially the metal atoms. -- PedroDaGr8 16:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Secondly it says "Compositions of matter can be divided.." I think this is horribly worded. It would be better worded as "Chemical compounds can roughly be divided into to major categories." Otherwise it seems as if we are dealing with a more physical system. -- PedroDaGr8 16:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The distinction between organic and inorganic is only an historical artifact and there is no hard and fast rule (but certainly requiring C-H bonds for organic compounds is nonsense!) I've updated the article accordingly. The best definition of "inorganic carbon-containing compound" that I have found is "carbon compounds that were considered inorganic before Wohler's time, because they could be obtained from 'inorganic' (e.g., mineral) sources". Of course, one has to be flexible and extrapolate in some cases. Fullerenes are considered inorganic because they an elemental substance (although not really a compound). Derivatives of fullerenes are a gray area. -- Itub 08:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence of this section says: "Many compounds that contain carbon are considered organic; for example, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, carbonates ..." Shouldn't that be "inorganic"? Dcbrc2 ( talk) 14:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The definition in the lead is incorrect, because minerals are of biological origin. Please refer to minerals and their definitions. Lowenstam (1981), for example, states the following: [1]
This contradicts the lead to this article: "Traditionally, inorganic compounds are considered to be of a mineral, not biological origin." It is my understanding that an inorganic compound is traditionally one that lacks a carbon molecule, not in functional contact with a living being, and originates from processes other than metabolism. Thompsma ( talk) 04:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
I suppose it's a matter of context and convention, like how petroleum is considered a mineral resource. To chemists, this traditional distinction is between what you can extract out of plants or animals or their waste products, and between what you can extract out of the earth. -- Rifleman 82 ( talk) 04:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I agree with the recent edits. The minerals people might have opinions of their own, but a handful of articles taken out of context (I see no chemistry journals) should not be used to redefine inorganic chemistry.
The distinction between organic and inorganic compounds is fuzzy, is to a certain extent arbitrary, and is influenced by history and tradition. To many chemists, an inorganic compound may be easy to identify, but is hard to define. Does an inorganic compound have C-H bonds or are derivatives of alkanes? Usually not. But are carbon-containing compounds lacking C-H bonds inorganic? Hard to say. Do inorganic compounds have no relation with life (as your latest version suggests)? Hard to say too. Are the following compounds organic or inorganic?
To muddy the water, organometallic chemistry is traditionally defined as the chemistry of the metal-carbon bond. Yet metal-carbonyl chemistry is considered organometallic chemistry, whereas metal cyanides are traditionally considered coordination compounds. Some contemporary chemists even consider metal-phosphine chemistry within the realm of organometallic chemistry, despite the lack of a M-C bond. That said, organometallic chemistry and coordination chemistry are traditionally branches of inorganic chemistry.
A further comment on your latest revision: "lattice" might be a poor choice of word. How about "skeleton"? Lattice implies a crystalline structure where you probably intend to mean "backbone".
I'll drop a note at WT:CHEMISTRY, and see if they have anything to comment here. -- Rifleman 82 ( talk) 05:35, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
{{
cite journal}}
: zero width space character in |doi=
at position 9 (
help)
First, we don't throw out traditional definitions simply because there exists some debate in current or recent literature - as this seems the thrust of the suggested changes. There has been some similar changes made on the
mineral article - redefining based on recent publications. I'm not very comfortable with those changes, but haven't yet read the refs provided - I'm out in the boonies with no easy access to the papers cited.
It seems some with biology backgrounds both here and on the mineral article want to redefine things to emphasize their viewpoint. All that said, of course organisms are involved in "making minerals" and other inorganic compounds, but the vast majority of earth minerals have never been aquainted with an organism. So ... mebe some
WP:Undue weight at play literally - considering the vast bulk of crustal and mantle minerals.
... it is stated clearly in the peer-reviewed literature that minerals are of biological origin. Yes, some/many minerals are of bio origin, but the vast majority aren't. The definition in the lead is incorrect, because minerals are of biological origin. is a misstatement - no - some minerals are of bio origin.
Vsmith (
talk) 19:42, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Ecologists can have whatever opinion they want, and that's fine. But it is not their place to define inorganic chemistry. The divisions in chemistry are determined through custom and usage. It is not the custom of chemists to define any compound containing carbon as an organic compound. Is carbon dioxide an organic compound? Is tetracarbonylnickel(0) inorganic? -- Rifleman 82 ( talk) 20:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: zero width space character in |doi=
at position 9 (
help)
I propose that the link to
This
level-4 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
- be removed. Organic or inorganic chemistry does not have prime dominion over the definition of what constitutes an inorganic compound - that would be ludicrous. This is wikipedia and as such it must encompass an interdisciplinary approach. If I'm writing in an article on nutrient cycle, for example, and want to put a link to an inorganic compound - it does not make sense to have separate pages for the chemists version of what this means and for the biologists version of what this means. It goes under a single heading and I think we are smart enough to deal with the kinds of challenges that this poses.
Most biology textbooks refer to inorganic compounds in the following way: "An inorganic compound is oxidized by lithotrophs to serve as electron donor for respiration and biosynthesis, whereas an organic molecule serves these functions in organotrophs." [7] That is a very specific example - but I included it because it refers to the oxidation process. Other biology texts state something like this: "An inorganic compound is a compound that does not have both carbon and hydrogen atoms bonded together within the molecule." [8] Every organic chemistry textbook (that I can locate) states that any molecule containing carbon is an organic compound. I am unable to find a single reference and nobody has been able to provide a reference to a reliable source that would support the current claim that an inorganic molecule is of mineral origin. Moreover, this creates a contradiction with the literature stemming back for over a hundred years, because there are many kinds of minerals that are of biological origin (e.g., H. A., Lowenstam (1981). "Minerals formed by organisms". Science. 211 (4487): 1126–1131. doi: 10.1126/science.7008198. JSTOR 1685216. PMID 7008198.).
Therefore, I propose the following:
I am completely open to debate on this so long as people provide sources to support their claims. The published literature shows that the distinction based on a mineral has to go. Thompsma ( talk) 22:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Thompsma ( talk) 19:09, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
Seems we may be going at this somewhat "bass ackwards". The new lead has 7 refs whereas the remainder of the article has only two. Seems the article should be developed coherently (it's currently somewhat a haphazard mess) and then write a lead that summarizes the article and leaves the referencing to the body. But ... don't look at me :)
Now to the discussion at hand. I'm quite OK with shifting the traditional "mineral" to traditional "inanimate" - that works and solves part of the current discussion confusion. However the proposed (just above) Inorganic compounds lack carbon and hydrogen atoms and are synthesized by the agency of geological systems. seems lacking a bit or maybe a couple bits.
Further, Some...may consider atmospheric CO2 as an organic compound -- who are these ecospherians? :) And what about good old water? As water is involved in bio reactions (or ecospheric), does that mean all water-bearing (hydrous) compounds or hydroxide compounds are organic? Vsmith ( talk) 03:50, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
References
And so, because the lede and definitions portions of this article remain unsettled since the discussion taking place in 2011, I have added a "dispute" tag and an "expert needed" tag. The aim is to resolve the fact that the current definitions and content rely on limited sources and so may not be accurate, scholarly, or encyclopedic. The work appearing above, in the preceding Talk sections, is far better than the current simplistic, and outdated definition-as-negation and geologic discussion that opens the current article. Finally, the analysis of texts that do and do not provide definitions is WP:OR (and failed OR at that, because those texts do contain inherent definitions, even if not easily gleaned). Help, Inorg chemists! Le PRof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 19:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Adding an image of the periodic table, and adding a new opening sentence to the lede, and integrating it, so that it is consistent with the IOChem article and with real chemical practice. All I can do today. Le Prof Leprof 7272 ( talk) 20:44, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
The bulky periodic table has got to go! It takes up way too much space for what it contributes (showing that most elements aren't carbon), and distracts from the main message by its size. A link would suffice.
I noticed a periodic table of a more suitable style at Compounds_of_carbon#Organic_compounds. Unfortunately, that one illustrates the opposite concept -- namely organic compounds.
89.217.9.26 ( talk) 21:11, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
The article is incoherent scraps. While I understand there are several fuzzy overlapping definitions, it would be useful if they were crisply presented and contrasted -- and cleaned up a bit in the process! Unfortunately it seems that the needed synthesis does not appear as a coherent presentation out in the literature, so we get this hodgepodge instead.
In general, I liked the discussion of organic versus inorganic compounds (of carbon) in the Compounds of carbon article better than the one here. Since (evidently) all sources agree that an organic compound must contain carbon, the discussion in the carbon article has the potential to provide a complete answer to the question. 89.217.9.26 ( talk) 21:10, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree with LeProf above, the German Wikipedia article he cites is a good model. It has a section entitled "Anorganische_Stoffe" -- see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorganische_Chemie#Anorganische_Stoffe -- that simply lists the exceptions (inorganic carbon compounds) by group. It draws a clear distinction between the historical motivation and the current meaning. (Perhaps following a German tradition of officially erasing old language, but in chemistry this makes sense.) 89.217.19.149 ( talk) 08:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Magnetite, which is an inorganic compound, is found in brain of birds and human, and also in some (magnetotactic) bacteria. Calcite, aragonite, vaterite - all are inorganic and precipitated by organism in shells for a purpose. Eudialytos ( talk) 19:11, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
What??? I'm here reading about it so it is of particular interest. Seriously ... what kind of a statement is that? Not of particular interest to who? Where are the details of the poll which determined it is of no particulr interest? Etc. I think this should be removed? FillsHerTease ( talk) 12:34, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
The companion article on Wöhler synthesis declares this story an absolute myth. — MaxEnt 19:01, 10 October 2019 (UTC)