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If contributors have any photos of the inner German border (either before or after 1989), please contribute them! (But note that they must be your own photos - please don't copy images you find elsewhere on the Internet.) -- ChrisO ( talk) 22:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Urgent ALT text check, can someone please check this diff for the quality of my alt text? Fifelfoo ( talk) 03:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Please add below any comments about the article. -- ChrisO ( talk) 22:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
the article claims: "..during the 28 years of operation of the Marienborn complex, no successful escapes were recorded.[103].." yet a little later is a photo of an escape in a "bubble car" from Marienborn Feroshki ( talk) 00:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
was the entire border system built in just 1945? That is hard to believe... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.86.104.7 ( talk) 07:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
It strike me that a more appropriate name for this article might be Cold War German border. Just a thought. Politis ( talk) 11:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thanks, it makes sense. Politis ( talk) 13:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I would like to congratulate all the users who put a lot of effort in to this article. Good job. - BennyK95 - Talk 18:33, November 9 1009 (UTC)
This is a nice little tribute from Andrew Sullivan, who evidently liked the pics I sent him: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/11/more-views-from-germany.html - it's always good to get a link to Wikipedia as well! -- ChrisO ( talk) 21:46, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
to ChrisO and everyone else who's contributed to this page. I don't read every TFA, but I did read this entire article, and learned a lot of things. It's a good read, and so relevant to todays date. Well done, and thanks. Matthewedwards : Chat 22:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
An IP editor brought something up which was not very well phrased, but is actually pretty relevant to the context here. Under BRD law anyone who could prove German ancestry and could speak the language could gain citizenship upon request. This wasn't exclusive to East Germans, but it was particularly useful to the ones who escaped to the west because nearly any DDR citizen qualified. Unfortunately I don't have a source for that either, since it was something I learned from an off-textbook discussion with a university language professor. Durova 362 19:24, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page). pair. - Regards,
87.160.84.170 (
talk)
20:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)Actually this border is not "inner". It's border between two different countries, which have different cultures and religion. All land between Oder and Elbe is slavic territory belonging to polabian slavs - obodrites and veleti, which were pagans. Most of towns, rivers, lakes in GDR have slavic names. Even name of capital city "Berlin" means "Pond". Christianized saxons have conquered this land during 10-13 centuries. Only in 20-th century Red Army have liberated slavic territory. So, border between two countries was running exactly along Elbe, historical border between two nations. -- RethraTemple ( talk) 20:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Surely someone should mention this cycle trail as being an intrinsic part of the division today? I actually cycled part of it... maybe I'll get the chance to write something on it sometime... 79.148.110.52 ( talk) 15:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Surely someone should mention this cycle trail as being an intrinsic part of the division today? I actually cycled part of it... maybe I'll get the chance to write something on it sometime... Maxjjazz ( talk) 15:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
The sections "Origins" and "Views on the border" need some work. The current version describes the situation during the 1970s and 80s, somewhat crudely but for the most part correct. What it fails to describe is that particularly East Germany's view (West Germany's to a lesser degree) changed over time.
From section "Origins":
West Germany regarded German citizenship and rights as applying equally to East and West German citizens. An East German who escaped or was released to the West was automatically granted West German rights, including residence and the right to work;
True, but between 1949 and 1967 East Germany did exactly the same reciprocally. Only in 1967 was a separate East German citizenship established - which West Germany did not recognize -, and only from then on did East Germany regard West Germany as a foreign country, and from then on only the situation was as described in the article. I cannot source these fact properly, but it shouldn't be difficult for anyone willing to invest the time.
West German laws were deemed to be applicable in the East.
Not really. While the West German government never viewed East Germany as a foreign country, viewed its regime as illegitimate and was striving for reunification, it did not claim to have the right to legislate over East Germany. I suggest to remove that sentence, as it probably cannot be credibly sourced.
Section "Views of the border":
The GDR saw it as the international frontier of a sovereign state
True only after 1967/70ish. Until then, East Germany viewed West Germany as part of the German nation and was striving for reunification with it, of course under communist rule.
However, West German propaganda leaflets referred to the border as merely "the demarcation line of the Soviet occupation zone", and emphasised the cruelty and injustice of the division of Germany.
Before roughly 1970, East Germany described the division of Germany equally as cruel and injust, except they blamed Western aggression for it.
Again, it'll probably take some time to find reliable English speaking sourced for my claims, but I suggest to whoever is willing to do the work to find them and change the article accordingly. Sorry I currently don't have the time to do that work, otherwhise I would. Anorak2 ( talk) 23:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Very good article. It covers some of the most important issues, while not drowning in details. The links give the details for the interested student/reader. From a quick glance, I also think it overall presents the information without choosing side in this otherwise heavily political subject. Very good. Except for one important issue.
The article has almost no information about the context that sustained the border! It describes why it was constructed at the end of the Second World War, but not why it persisted for so long and why its was thought important to keep it for so long. The context of Cold War Europe should be included somehow, otherwise the border just comes out as an anachronistic curiosity of the past. The context of espionage, the threat of nuclear war, the large numbers of conventional soldiers stationed on both sides of the border should be touched. At least some "see also" links would be appropriate.
RhinoMind ( talk) 21:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
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Say what the picture "Halt! Heir Grenze" means in a caption. Jidanni ( talk) 12:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Consecutive blank lines are a no-no:
"Between sections, there should be a single blank line; multiple blank lines in the edit window create too much white space in the article. There is no need to include a blank line between a heading and sub-heading."
- — MOS
... while cleaning == up == == this == ==shit== Some of us routinely ensure there's a blank line – completely invisible to the reader and therefore irrelevant to MOS – immediately above and below each one, and that there's a blank line, visible to the reader but barely noticeable, above the very first word of every plain paragraph (never mind whatever's above that). This et al is why.
If there's a policy or guideline indicating those lines should be removed, or consensus that we should stop, please share.
2601:840:8402:34A0:8592:25EF:7C99:3402 (
talk)
07:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
p.s.
For God's sake notice (and reciprocate)
Bofuses's
meticulous avoidance of before, after, and
between in this context.
The article has multiple deficiencies vis-a-vis the FA criteria:
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Inner German border article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Inner German border is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 9, 2009. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
If contributors have any photos of the inner German border (either before or after 1989), please contribute them! (But note that they must be your own photos - please don't copy images you find elsewhere on the Internet.) -- ChrisO ( talk) 22:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Urgent ALT text check, can someone please check this diff for the quality of my alt text? Fifelfoo ( talk) 03:33, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Please add below any comments about the article. -- ChrisO ( talk) 22:37, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
the article claims: "..during the 28 years of operation of the Marienborn complex, no successful escapes were recorded.[103].." yet a little later is a photo of an escape in a "bubble car" from Marienborn Feroshki ( talk) 00:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
was the entire border system built in just 1945? That is hard to believe... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.86.104.7 ( talk) 07:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
It strike me that a more appropriate name for this article might be Cold War German border. Just a thought. Politis ( talk) 11:13, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
thanks, it makes sense. Politis ( talk) 13:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I would like to congratulate all the users who put a lot of effort in to this article. Good job. - BennyK95 - Talk 18:33, November 9 1009 (UTC)
This is a nice little tribute from Andrew Sullivan, who evidently liked the pics I sent him: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/11/more-views-from-germany.html - it's always good to get a link to Wikipedia as well! -- ChrisO ( talk) 21:46, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
to ChrisO and everyone else who's contributed to this page. I don't read every TFA, but I did read this entire article, and learned a lot of things. It's a good read, and so relevant to todays date. Well done, and thanks. Matthewedwards : Chat 22:53, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
An IP editor brought something up which was not very well phrased, but is actually pretty relevant to the context here. Under BRD law anyone who could prove German ancestry and could speak the language could gain citizenship upon request. This wasn't exclusive to East Germans, but it was particularly useful to the ones who escaped to the west because nearly any DDR citizen qualified. Unfortunately I don't have a source for that either, since it was something I learned from an off-textbook discussion with a university language professor. Durova 362 19:24, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
<ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page). pair. - Regards,
87.160.84.170 (
talk)
20:35, 11 November 2009 (UTC)Actually this border is not "inner". It's border between two different countries, which have different cultures and religion. All land between Oder and Elbe is slavic territory belonging to polabian slavs - obodrites and veleti, which were pagans. Most of towns, rivers, lakes in GDR have slavic names. Even name of capital city "Berlin" means "Pond". Christianized saxons have conquered this land during 10-13 centuries. Only in 20-th century Red Army have liberated slavic territory. So, border between two countries was running exactly along Elbe, historical border between two nations. -- RethraTemple ( talk) 20:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Surely someone should mention this cycle trail as being an intrinsic part of the division today? I actually cycled part of it... maybe I'll get the chance to write something on it sometime... 79.148.110.52 ( talk) 15:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Surely someone should mention this cycle trail as being an intrinsic part of the division today? I actually cycled part of it... maybe I'll get the chance to write something on it sometime... Maxjjazz ( talk) 15:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
The sections "Origins" and "Views on the border" need some work. The current version describes the situation during the 1970s and 80s, somewhat crudely but for the most part correct. What it fails to describe is that particularly East Germany's view (West Germany's to a lesser degree) changed over time.
From section "Origins":
West Germany regarded German citizenship and rights as applying equally to East and West German citizens. An East German who escaped or was released to the West was automatically granted West German rights, including residence and the right to work;
True, but between 1949 and 1967 East Germany did exactly the same reciprocally. Only in 1967 was a separate East German citizenship established - which West Germany did not recognize -, and only from then on did East Germany regard West Germany as a foreign country, and from then on only the situation was as described in the article. I cannot source these fact properly, but it shouldn't be difficult for anyone willing to invest the time.
West German laws were deemed to be applicable in the East.
Not really. While the West German government never viewed East Germany as a foreign country, viewed its regime as illegitimate and was striving for reunification, it did not claim to have the right to legislate over East Germany. I suggest to remove that sentence, as it probably cannot be credibly sourced.
Section "Views of the border":
The GDR saw it as the international frontier of a sovereign state
True only after 1967/70ish. Until then, East Germany viewed West Germany as part of the German nation and was striving for reunification with it, of course under communist rule.
However, West German propaganda leaflets referred to the border as merely "the demarcation line of the Soviet occupation zone", and emphasised the cruelty and injustice of the division of Germany.
Before roughly 1970, East Germany described the division of Germany equally as cruel and injust, except they blamed Western aggression for it.
Again, it'll probably take some time to find reliable English speaking sourced for my claims, but I suggest to whoever is willing to do the work to find them and change the article accordingly. Sorry I currently don't have the time to do that work, otherwhise I would. Anorak2 ( talk) 23:49, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
Very good article. It covers some of the most important issues, while not drowning in details. The links give the details for the interested student/reader. From a quick glance, I also think it overall presents the information without choosing side in this otherwise heavily political subject. Very good. Except for one important issue.
The article has almost no information about the context that sustained the border! It describes why it was constructed at the end of the Second World War, but not why it persisted for so long and why its was thought important to keep it for so long. The context of Cold War Europe should be included somehow, otherwise the border just comes out as an anachronistic curiosity of the past. The context of espionage, the threat of nuclear war, the large numbers of conventional soldiers stationed on both sides of the border should be touched. At least some "see also" links would be appropriate.
RhinoMind ( talk) 21:24, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Inner German border. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 08:43, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Say what the picture "Halt! Heir Grenze" means in a caption. Jidanni ( talk) 12:32, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Inner German border. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:52, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 20:02, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Consecutive blank lines are a no-no:
"Between sections, there should be a single blank line; multiple blank lines in the edit window create too much white space in the article. There is no need to include a blank line between a heading and sub-heading."
- — MOS
... while cleaning == up == == this == ==shit== Some of us routinely ensure there's a blank line – completely invisible to the reader and therefore irrelevant to MOS – immediately above and below each one, and that there's a blank line, visible to the reader but barely noticeable, above the very first word of every plain paragraph (never mind whatever's above that). This et al is why.
If there's a policy or guideline indicating those lines should be removed, or consensus that we should stop, please share.
2601:840:8402:34A0:8592:25EF:7C99:3402 (
talk)
07:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
p.s.
For God's sake notice (and reciprocate)
Bofuses's
meticulous avoidance of before, after, and
between in this context.
The article has multiple deficiencies vis-a-vis the FA criteria: