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Archive 1 |
Is this true? I can understand why they might not be selling them anymore. But my understanding is that indulgences could still be obtained by performing ritual acts like praying to certain saints or going on pilgrimages to shrines and so forth. At least, this was the impression I got last time I spoke with the Blue Army rosary ladies, which has been a few year. Smerdis of Tlön 04:12, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Also, can we withhold judgment on whether Luther was correct in characterizing the marketing of indulgences as a sale of indulgences? Hasdrubal 02:51, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've overhauled this article; I'd appreciate a review or imput on the "other Christian traditions" section, as I can only speak to the Catholic and DOC positions. Essjay 09:24, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
The section on other Christian traditions may require some nuances. Most Protestants reject a doctrine of purgatory, but not all. C.S. Lewis is an obvious (but not lone) example. Orthodox Christians definitely reject "Purgatory" under that Latin name, but many suggest other ways that souls may be cleansed or purified after death that most Catholic theologians would consider "a distinction without a difference" (c.f. this Catholic "Cleansed After Death" article). So while it is generally safe to say that neither Protestants nor Orthodox believe in purgatory or grant indulgences, there are some similar beliefs and practices among them. Johnaugus — Preceding undated comment added 03:09, 21 June 2005 (UTC)
-- jrcagle 23:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I added a reference to something like Indulgences in the Pharisaic tradition. Jonathan Tweet 14:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC) -
--I would like to know the reference for the quotation from Patriarch Dositheus regarding the distribution of indulgences to the Eastern Orthodox. -- Cristianispir 14:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
In another occurrance of the continual war to change Reconciliation to Confession, this page has now been hit. I've said it before, and I'm sure I will have to say it again. The Catechism says Reconciliation, the Code of Canon Law says reconciliation, JP2 said reconciliation, B16 says reconciliation, and Francis Cardinal Arinze of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments says reconciliation. It isn't called confession anymore, it is RECONCILIATION! -- Essjay · Talk 04:17, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
There is currently no section in the acticle concerning the way in which the refutation of the doctrine of indulgences started Martin Luther on the road toward the Reformation. There should be a section that deals with this. More importantly this article reads like a piece of Roman Catholic doctrine than a proper encyclopediac entry. To not mention the important controversy regarding them, and then to paint the Catholic practise as proper but give modern examples of unethical behaviour by protestant televangilists also clouds this article with political bias. Indulgences do have a historical signifigance to Western culture that extends beyond their Roman Catholic dogma. Humble Servant 20:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Does the concept of Simony relate to the practice of Indulgences especially during the dark ages when Indulgences were one of the main issues spawning the Reformation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihcoyc ( talk • contribs) 03:32, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Bold text
The revised Manual of Indulgences (1999) is now out in an English version. It is excellent. The USCCB is the publisher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.100.20 ( talk) 04:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the image of an alleged indulgence by Tetzel ( Image:Indulgence.png). There are serious doubts as to its authenticity. See [2] . Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a crucial point glossed over here. The article states that indulgences only apply to sins already confessed and forgiven, and the "Myths About Indulgences" reference specifically states that a person can't "buy forgiveness" or apply indulgences for sins yet committed; yet when Luther wrote his Theses, many people (both priests and laymen) believed that indulgences could be used that way. That was one of the primary reasons for the controversy, and also a primary reason that many people now believe indulgences are no longer part of Church teaching. This article states a specific technical definition of an indulgence without mentioning the common understanding, which was and is widely held. Shouldn't it mention the difference, so as to shed light on the controversies? User:keno 20:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest merging Treasury of Merit into this article. "Treasure House" is very short, marked as having quality issues, and at one time the subject of a delete discussion. It essentially just a definition needed for this article. The only other link to it comes from Martin Luther which would probably do better by pointing here instead. Hult041956 17:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a cradle catholic but I've been a very active student of catholic history and the catholic church. I used to be a bible-quoting, gung-ho protestant before God led me into the catholic church, so I'm very familiar with the arguments of both sides of the christian divide. I don't believe that the catholic church practises any such thing as a "Treasure House of Merit". In fact, personal merits acquired by individuals cannot be sold or transferred to another person, although we can secure favors from God for people we care about through our prayers and merits. Our Lord only spoke about the need for us to store treasure in heaven through our acts of charity, prayers, sacrifices, penances, self-denials, atonement, etc. The so-called practice of selling indulgences or even of merits was un-catholic and un-christian, limited to some zealots or corrupted few of the Middle Ages within the church (who sought to raise funds among the nobles of that time to build churches or to pay for the defence of the church against muslim expansion) before the Catholic reformation prompted by the Council of Trent, which banned or banished such un-catholic activities that were not approved by the magisterium of the church. Only anti-catholics would continue to use such mistakes by a limited few to attack the catholic church and the christian faith it professes, which has largely remained unchanged since the time of Christ. Yes, Martin Luther had strong objections to such practices and rightly so but he was wrong to take it upon himself to use such mistakes to attack the church in a vain attempt to force the church to make changes, rather than to work on securing changes within the church because his actions were tantamount to placing himself above God, which resulted in creating his own church (and setting a very bad example for others to do the same which ended up with more than 30,000 different christian churches) that was not of God's making, i.e. he founded a church to believe in God in his own way and not the way that Jesus had taught us. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Himself and established by His Apostles, which is the only true church of Christ, regardless of whatever shortcomings that may have been created by the leaders of the church, and Jesus promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Mt 16:18-19). God allowed the human leaders of the church to make mistakes that led to dissatisfaction which prompted reforms that were necessary for change with the times but never once, did any of the Popes or Bishops change the constitution of the church, i.e. the dogmas of the church, to justify their wrong-doings and all of them died repentant of their sins.
Therefore, the very entry for "Treasure House of Merit" is wrong by itself (as there is no such thing, other than what was alleged of the catholic church by protestants and anti-catholics) but if you decide to merge it with the entry on "Indulgence", then Wikipedia would run the risk of being biased and be considered irrelevant by both catholics and non-christians seeking the truth of historical facts. Wikipedia should in fact remove the entry "Treasure House of Merit" itself, simply because there is no such thing within the doctrines of the catholic church. You may refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Catholic Encyclopedia to confirm whether such a thing as "Treasure House of Merit" truly exists or not within the catholic church. Thank you. Benitus ( talk) 21:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
If Martin Luther felt it important enough to mention in his 95 theses, then it is worthy of mention here, even if he was mistaken. As long as there are verifiable sources and a neutral POV, that is. Perhaps merging with the article on Martin Luther would be more appropriate though Beeblbrox ( talk) 00:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The section on mortal sin versus versus in particular seems to present Catholic theology as fact. It seems to me a POV edit is needed here. Beeblbrox ( talk) 23:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I changed contrary to "dogmatic truth" for "dogmatic teachings"!!!!!!!!!, Abuses?.....it was the church that was selling those indulgences sponsored by the pope who was financing the church this way, the article makes it sound as if it were some rogue christians. it sound like if it had been written by a priest, it has no neutrality what so ever..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.95.235.216 ( talk) 20:56, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I have yet again flagged this article as being biased. Whoever is removing the tag before there is consensus here is violating Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I do not have an axe to grind against religion or the Catholic Church. I often find the history and theology of the Catholic Church fascinating. I am a career scholar who recognizes the role of Catholicism in maintaining academia throughout the Middle Ages and continuing to be a part of it today. I also recognize that there are certain things that one cannot fully appreciate about a religion from the point of view of an outsider. HOWEVER, I maintain that this article fails to meet the standards of neutrality in terms of tone or presentation. I repeat do NOT remove the POV dispute tag without consensus that it is written in a neutral point of view. Maigo.opetrenko ( talk) 00:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes they still exist in RCC. To earn one, the faithful must confess his/her sins and receive the body of Christ within a short period of time after the indulgence is granted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.224.90 ( talk) 17:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
need more info —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.130.161 ( talk) 23:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The article addresses nicely the function of indulgences according to Catholic beliefs. It does not, however, address the function of indulgences from an objective or impartial perspective. This is frequently a problem with Wikipedia articles on religion. The function of indulgences is to perpetuate Catholicism by making people go back to "the flock" if they steer away from it. For example, if a person does something suggesting that they are not obeying the priests, the priest tells the person to attend a retreat or to attend an absolution by the bishop as part of the indulgence - in this way, as people inevitably "sin" and feel guilty for it, the Church guarantees that there will be regular attendance of its retreats and the bishop's ceremonies. The function is clearly preservation and perpetuation of the religion, whereas Catholics believe that it has something to do with spirituality. These are two different explanations of the function of indulgences, but the article addresses only the internal one and omits the objective explanation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.36.7.54 ( talk) 14:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be a good explanation in this article or in the WikiPedia of "temporal punishment". Could someone please provide more definition and examples? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.139.71 ( talk) 01:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Temporal punishment in the context of indulgences means "temporary" or more specifically not "eternal". In Catholic theology if someone dies with a mortal (as opposed to venal sin) unconfessed they suffer eternal damnation. Temporal punishment refers to the punishment that someone suffers for sins of any kind that cannot be erased by confession and forgiveness. Distinguishing between guilt and punishment becomes very important because guilt means that someone has the "liability of guilt" and the "liability of punishment".
I recently flagged this article by disputing its neutrality partly because there is a lack of detail on this very subject. This is because I feel that the nature of indulgences being only for temporal punishment is being left unexplained and possibly minimized. Technically as long as a Catholic confesses their sins the only punishment they will ever face (based on their own dogma) is temporal punishment (in Purgatory I think? no sure about that... ). I can't help but feel that the lack of this information is being used to minimize the significance of an indulgence. If someone can theoretically perform a mortal sin, go to confession and then get an indulgence they would theoretically face no punishment whatsoever. In an economic sense no one would pay for confession because confession is always free, making an indulgence the thing of value. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maigo.opetrenko ( talk • contribs) 17:24, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
After reading the article over a couple of times I believe there is a great reference point that can be used to explain what temporal sin/punishment is and what indulgences do in a much more concise manner. The word to compare it to is karma. The concept of temporal sin is basically the idea of karma. You do bad things, which disconnect you from God's Grace, which causes you to be punished in the material world and/or spend time in purgatory if you die before you absolve yourself of those sins. Therefore, indulgences are essentially a way to reduce your bad karma. You do certain things for, or in the name of, the Church, and they say that your karmic sentence is reduced. This is a simplified explanation of what this article is about that connects it to something most people have heard of and have a basic understanding of.
74.191.67.11 (
talk) 14:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
In 1985, my in-laws were ordered to pay $15000 to a Catholic church in Houston TX for indulgences/temporal punishment for my brother-in-law when he met an untimely death. Stop lying to people saying there is no such thing. [1] 98.20.200.15 ( talk) 14:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)RM
References
are there not historic attestations to indulgences that were acts of simony? 67.171.233.221 ( talk) 13:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
In 1985, my in-laws were ordered to pay $15000 to a Catholic church in Houston TX for indulgences/temporal punishment for my brother-in-law when he met an untimely death. [1] 98.20.200.15 (talk) 14:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)RM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.20.200.15 ( talk)
From what I've read on the subject, indulgences crept up in the Greek Church as a Latinization. There were apparently a number of councils that formed to directly address these Latinizations, it was just that the matter of the absolution certificates wasn't realized as one until the 19th century, and it wasn't until the 20th century that they were completely rooted out. I assume that they were excused for so long due to the heavy taxes, which the article does mention, that were levied on Christians (especially the Church) by the Ottomans; they excused their extortion of the laity to pay off Ottoman extortion of the Church. The evidence available shows no real history of them before the 16th century, yet the article makes it sound like they were there since the beginning. They were only officially noted in Church writings somewhere in the 17th or 18th century. I think, as currently written, it sounds a bit misleading. - HawkeyE ( talk) 06:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
This article misrepresents Luther's critique in the 95 theses, or at least is so unclear as to be misleading. Luther did not "reject the Pope's authority to grant pardons." In fact in the theses he specifically affirms that the Pope, along with bishops, has the authority to absolve sins. His criticism has to do on the one hand with the impression that common people were receiving, which was that buying indulgences could free loved ones from purgatory or somehow granted them the right to sin with impunity. On the other Luther pointed out that temporal punishments associated with sin could not be remitted by the church because those punishments were not determined by clergy or the church but by God, and moreover that the temporal punishments inflicted by God on earth or in purgatory (which Luther still acknowledged in the writing of the theses) were beneficial for the forgiven sinner. Truly penitent sinners, he writes, are glad to receive afflictions from God because through them God crucifies the old man. He acknowledges that the Pope can remit ecclesiastical penalties laid out in canon law, but raises several strong objections--first of all, those penalties had fallen into disuse anyway, so the indulgence is superfluous. Secondly, canon law does not impose ecclesiastical penalties on the dying or the souls in purgatory anyway. Third, if the pope did have the authority to remit temporal punishments either in purgatory or on earth, charity would seem to dictate that he simply grant plenary indulgences gratuitously, just as absolution is granted to penitent or contrite sinners without payment. A reading of the 95 theses--which are not very long--would make it clear that the present wording of the article misrepresents Luther's critique. Even after maturing in his theology, Luther taught until the end of his life that ministers had been given the authority to forgive sins in Christ's name. Whatever footnote is cited to back up the claim that Luther denied that bishops or the pope have the authority to pardon needs to be checked. Finally, since the sale of indulgences is so critical to the history of Lutheranism in particular and by extension to the rest of protestantism, this ought not simply to be an article detailing catholic dogma concerning indulgences but needs to have an extended section discussing the implications of Rome's teaching on indulgences for the larger critique of the Roman church by fully developed Lutheran and Reformed theology. The Luther who wrote the 95 theses does not seem to express the "Lutheran" doctrine of justification by faith in Christ alone that came to characterize the reformation of the church triggered by these abuses of indulgences in Germany. In general, doing justice to this topic requires acknowledging the significance of indulgences for protestants, getting what the 95 theses say right, and making clear that the critique of the 95 theses is not at all the same as the general protestant rejection of catholic teaching on indulgences, nor is it even Luther's later critique, nor does it represent Lutheran teaching on confession and absolution, repentance, human merit, or justification. It is very much a criticism written by a Roman Catholic monk not outside of the mainstream of catholic theology at the time. The 95 theses were very well received by church leaders who were unwilling to follow Luther's later teaching. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.31.123.200 ( talk) 17:12, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
The text seems unnecessarily complex, with a penchant for abstract language over concrete. The introductory paragraph should at least be comprehensible to a non-Catholic. There is no lucid one-sentence definition of "indulgence."
"In Catholic theology, an indulgence is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment[1] due for sins which have already been forgiven."
This might read better as something like "Once a sin has been forgiven, a Catholic can be granted an indulgence from the Church to lessen the amount of time the person might otherwise spend in prayer, good works, and other penance."
There, concrete rather than abstract.
And this:
Indulgences replaced the severe penances of the early Church.[4] More exactly, they replaced the shortening of those penances that was allowed at the intercession of those imprisoned and those awaiting martyrdom for the faith.
If the first sentence is inexact and misleading, why is it there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.117.19 ( talk) 19:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
The opening summary can double as a list of catholic jargon. It makes no sense to someone without a deep understanding of catholicism. Russ1642 ( talk) 19:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, all I did was summarize what the article said, or so I thought. Trouble is, that even your explanation given above makes very little sense to me as a non-Catholic. Wikipedia ought to make sense to people who don't know all about theology as well. As for your claim that it is a myth that indulgences are sold, then perhaps someone should change the language in the article, where it mentions "Greedy commissaries sought to extract the maximum amount of money for each indulgence", the Church using indulgences to fund their projects, even a reference to "aggressive marketing" of indulgences. If that isn't the language of retail, I don't know what it is. If all of that is totally inaccurate, then it ought to plainly say so. And I just went through the entire article carefully, and I don't seen ANYTHING that appears to "debunk" the idea of indulgences were "ever" sold. Are you claiming that they DIDN'T sell in indulgences in the Middle Ages? If you would kindly point out the lines where it says "indulgences are not now, nor ever were, given to church members in exchange for monetary contributions", I could greatly appreciate it. As it is, there is a part of the article which seems to very plainly say that they DID sell indulgences for money. You shouldn't have one article saying two different things, in any case. If there is some scholarly dispute as to whether it ever happened, it ought to say "other scholars deny that this ever happened, for ____ reason". Again, I see nothing that would suggest clearly that what it states in the body of the article is incorrect. Of course, I'm at a disadvantage, not being a theology student. There must be a way to phrase all this apparently essential obscure detail in plain English; it shouldn't be required to copy the language directly out of whatever book of Catholic Doctrines its written in. Anyway, if indulgences WEREN'T sold, it needs to very clearly state as such, for plain people, because that was what I and tens of thousands of people were taught in High School. Literally. Normal people ought to be able to benefit from Wikipedia as well. They deserve to have their ignorance removed (if, indeed, what were taught is false), and articles like this are not the way to do it. And I appreciate your adding a "simple statement" of the meaning of indulgences to replace the one I used (not that I see how that was incorrect...and I didn't write it, I used the one the first commenter came up with), but your sentence just raises more questions...how is "reduces the punishment" better than "reduces the time spent in penance"? One thing that I can glean from the article is that there is TWO kinds of "punishment" (although personally I think it's kind of messed up that they consider praying and doing good works a form of "punishment"). I would think that saying "penance" is a good way to demonstrate that it DOESN'T refer to Damnation, etc. "Punishment" can mean either type of punishment, and saying "temporal punishment" isn't going to make things any clearer for the average person. How is "prayer, good works, and other penance" different from "temporal punishment"? And if the article itself doesn't say anything about purgatory, what good would it do to mention it in the "simple explanation" for plain people? If both me and the other guy read the article and apparently came away with same "inaccurate" idea of what it was saying, then maybe that's a problem with the article itself. If ALL of your students fail the test, maybe it's a problem with you, not them. I would be extremely happy if some knowledgeable person would summarize the idea behind indulgences, but it's been several years since the first commenter brought the subject up, and no-one had bothered to do so. And while your at it, what ARE indulgences? It (sort of)explains what they DO, and WHY, but what ARE they? Who gives them out, and how? Could they be considered a form of reprieve? A partial pardon? .45Colt 04:47, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
The legend to the Breu woodcut (at Indulgence#Late_medieval_abuses paragraph) claimed that the image shows sale of indulgences. That is not correct. The topic of the image is inflation or in the language of the original legend "abundance of money". The mintmaker answers to this there are 3 reasons: 1. the pope and his indulgences, 2. coining of bad coins (=containing less silver than legal), 3. traders who use wrong weights and measurements. cf. - Thus the image does not show trade of indulgences, it illustrates the 3 mentioned reasons for inflation (including the mounted Pope). CF http://www.bildindex.de/obj16001144.html#%7Chome Depictions of the trade are here: Preacher and cashier, Pope on throne with letters, monk cashing Kipala ( talk) 06:55, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
The article lacks a clear account of the different types of indulgences (plenary, partial, local etc etc), which really deserves its own section, I would suggest straight after the lead. Johnbod ( talk) 03:49, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
The first image is not "A Catholic bishop granting plenary indulgences for the public during times of calamity." It is a wall fresco by Italian artist Lorenzo Lotto, Suardi, Italy, circa 1524 depicting St. Brigid taking the veil [3] -one of a series on the Legend of St. Brigid, and doesn't have a blessed thing to do with indulgences except apparently in the mind of the OP, and OR at that. Manannan67 ( talk) 02:36, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Is there an article for the other meaning of "indulgence": "A pleasure that one partakes in on occasion"? For example, "Smoking a cigarette while intoxicated is an indulgence of many young men." I would like to find a way to differentiate between these two phenomena. Joesom333 ( talk) 23:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Unfortunatley, the word "indulgence" means somthing different to working class America ns, like myself, than the word meant during the 1400s and 1500s within the catholic church. What are 2 or 3specific examples of indulgences provided by one church member to another as documented in Vatican records. Paperpineapple ( talk) 03:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Is this true? I can understand why they might not be selling them anymore. But my understanding is that indulgences could still be obtained by performing ritual acts like praying to certain saints or going on pilgrimages to shrines and so forth. At least, this was the impression I got last time I spoke with the Blue Army rosary ladies, which has been a few year. Smerdis of Tlön 04:12, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Also, can we withhold judgment on whether Luther was correct in characterizing the marketing of indulgences as a sale of indulgences? Hasdrubal 02:51, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've overhauled this article; I'd appreciate a review or imput on the "other Christian traditions" section, as I can only speak to the Catholic and DOC positions. Essjay 09:24, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
The section on other Christian traditions may require some nuances. Most Protestants reject a doctrine of purgatory, but not all. C.S. Lewis is an obvious (but not lone) example. Orthodox Christians definitely reject "Purgatory" under that Latin name, but many suggest other ways that souls may be cleansed or purified after death that most Catholic theologians would consider "a distinction without a difference" (c.f. this Catholic "Cleansed After Death" article). So while it is generally safe to say that neither Protestants nor Orthodox believe in purgatory or grant indulgences, there are some similar beliefs and practices among them. Johnaugus — Preceding undated comment added 03:09, 21 June 2005 (UTC)
-- jrcagle 23:58, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I added a reference to something like Indulgences in the Pharisaic tradition. Jonathan Tweet 14:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC) -
--I would like to know the reference for the quotation from Patriarch Dositheus regarding the distribution of indulgences to the Eastern Orthodox. -- Cristianispir 14:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
In another occurrance of the continual war to change Reconciliation to Confession, this page has now been hit. I've said it before, and I'm sure I will have to say it again. The Catechism says Reconciliation, the Code of Canon Law says reconciliation, JP2 said reconciliation, B16 says reconciliation, and Francis Cardinal Arinze of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments says reconciliation. It isn't called confession anymore, it is RECONCILIATION! -- Essjay · Talk 04:17, August 7, 2005 (UTC)
There is currently no section in the acticle concerning the way in which the refutation of the doctrine of indulgences started Martin Luther on the road toward the Reformation. There should be a section that deals with this. More importantly this article reads like a piece of Roman Catholic doctrine than a proper encyclopediac entry. To not mention the important controversy regarding them, and then to paint the Catholic practise as proper but give modern examples of unethical behaviour by protestant televangilists also clouds this article with political bias. Indulgences do have a historical signifigance to Western culture that extends beyond their Roman Catholic dogma. Humble Servant 20:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Does the concept of Simony relate to the practice of Indulgences especially during the dark ages when Indulgences were one of the main issues spawning the Reformation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ihcoyc ( talk • contribs) 03:32, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Bold text
The revised Manual of Indulgences (1999) is now out in an English version. It is excellent. The USCCB is the publisher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.100.20 ( talk) 04:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the image of an alleged indulgence by Tetzel ( Image:Indulgence.png). There are serious doubts as to its authenticity. See [2] . Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a crucial point glossed over here. The article states that indulgences only apply to sins already confessed and forgiven, and the "Myths About Indulgences" reference specifically states that a person can't "buy forgiveness" or apply indulgences for sins yet committed; yet when Luther wrote his Theses, many people (both priests and laymen) believed that indulgences could be used that way. That was one of the primary reasons for the controversy, and also a primary reason that many people now believe indulgences are no longer part of Church teaching. This article states a specific technical definition of an indulgence without mentioning the common understanding, which was and is widely held. Shouldn't it mention the difference, so as to shed light on the controversies? User:keno 20:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest merging Treasury of Merit into this article. "Treasure House" is very short, marked as having quality issues, and at one time the subject of a delete discussion. It essentially just a definition needed for this article. The only other link to it comes from Martin Luther which would probably do better by pointing here instead. Hult041956 17:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not a cradle catholic but I've been a very active student of catholic history and the catholic church. I used to be a bible-quoting, gung-ho protestant before God led me into the catholic church, so I'm very familiar with the arguments of both sides of the christian divide. I don't believe that the catholic church practises any such thing as a "Treasure House of Merit". In fact, personal merits acquired by individuals cannot be sold or transferred to another person, although we can secure favors from God for people we care about through our prayers and merits. Our Lord only spoke about the need for us to store treasure in heaven through our acts of charity, prayers, sacrifices, penances, self-denials, atonement, etc. The so-called practice of selling indulgences or even of merits was un-catholic and un-christian, limited to some zealots or corrupted few of the Middle Ages within the church (who sought to raise funds among the nobles of that time to build churches or to pay for the defence of the church against muslim expansion) before the Catholic reformation prompted by the Council of Trent, which banned or banished such un-catholic activities that were not approved by the magisterium of the church. Only anti-catholics would continue to use such mistakes by a limited few to attack the catholic church and the christian faith it professes, which has largely remained unchanged since the time of Christ. Yes, Martin Luther had strong objections to such practices and rightly so but he was wrong to take it upon himself to use such mistakes to attack the church in a vain attempt to force the church to make changes, rather than to work on securing changes within the church because his actions were tantamount to placing himself above God, which resulted in creating his own church (and setting a very bad example for others to do the same which ended up with more than 30,000 different christian churches) that was not of God's making, i.e. he founded a church to believe in God in his own way and not the way that Jesus had taught us. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Himself and established by His Apostles, which is the only true church of Christ, regardless of whatever shortcomings that may have been created by the leaders of the church, and Jesus promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Mt 16:18-19). God allowed the human leaders of the church to make mistakes that led to dissatisfaction which prompted reforms that were necessary for change with the times but never once, did any of the Popes or Bishops change the constitution of the church, i.e. the dogmas of the church, to justify their wrong-doings and all of them died repentant of their sins.
Therefore, the very entry for "Treasure House of Merit" is wrong by itself (as there is no such thing, other than what was alleged of the catholic church by protestants and anti-catholics) but if you decide to merge it with the entry on "Indulgence", then Wikipedia would run the risk of being biased and be considered irrelevant by both catholics and non-christians seeking the truth of historical facts. Wikipedia should in fact remove the entry "Treasure House of Merit" itself, simply because there is no such thing within the doctrines of the catholic church. You may refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church or the Catholic Encyclopedia to confirm whether such a thing as "Treasure House of Merit" truly exists or not within the catholic church. Thank you. Benitus ( talk) 21:27, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
If Martin Luther felt it important enough to mention in his 95 theses, then it is worthy of mention here, even if he was mistaken. As long as there are verifiable sources and a neutral POV, that is. Perhaps merging with the article on Martin Luther would be more appropriate though Beeblbrox ( talk) 00:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
The section on mortal sin versus versus in particular seems to present Catholic theology as fact. It seems to me a POV edit is needed here. Beeblbrox ( talk) 23:20, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I changed contrary to "dogmatic truth" for "dogmatic teachings"!!!!!!!!!, Abuses?.....it was the church that was selling those indulgences sponsored by the pope who was financing the church this way, the article makes it sound as if it were some rogue christians. it sound like if it had been written by a priest, it has no neutrality what so ever..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.95.235.216 ( talk) 20:56, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I have yet again flagged this article as being biased. Whoever is removing the tag before there is consensus here is violating Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I do not have an axe to grind against religion or the Catholic Church. I often find the history and theology of the Catholic Church fascinating. I am a career scholar who recognizes the role of Catholicism in maintaining academia throughout the Middle Ages and continuing to be a part of it today. I also recognize that there are certain things that one cannot fully appreciate about a religion from the point of view of an outsider. HOWEVER, I maintain that this article fails to meet the standards of neutrality in terms of tone or presentation. I repeat do NOT remove the POV dispute tag without consensus that it is written in a neutral point of view. Maigo.opetrenko ( talk) 00:54, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes they still exist in RCC. To earn one, the faithful must confess his/her sins and receive the body of Christ within a short period of time after the indulgence is granted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.224.90 ( talk) 17:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
need more info —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.130.161 ( talk) 23:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The article addresses nicely the function of indulgences according to Catholic beliefs. It does not, however, address the function of indulgences from an objective or impartial perspective. This is frequently a problem with Wikipedia articles on religion. The function of indulgences is to perpetuate Catholicism by making people go back to "the flock" if they steer away from it. For example, if a person does something suggesting that they are not obeying the priests, the priest tells the person to attend a retreat or to attend an absolution by the bishop as part of the indulgence - in this way, as people inevitably "sin" and feel guilty for it, the Church guarantees that there will be regular attendance of its retreats and the bishop's ceremonies. The function is clearly preservation and perpetuation of the religion, whereas Catholics believe that it has something to do with spirituality. These are two different explanations of the function of indulgences, but the article addresses only the internal one and omits the objective explanation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.36.7.54 ( talk) 14:41, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
There doesn't seem to be a good explanation in this article or in the WikiPedia of "temporal punishment". Could someone please provide more definition and examples? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.139.71 ( talk) 01:20, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Temporal punishment in the context of indulgences means "temporary" or more specifically not "eternal". In Catholic theology if someone dies with a mortal (as opposed to venal sin) unconfessed they suffer eternal damnation. Temporal punishment refers to the punishment that someone suffers for sins of any kind that cannot be erased by confession and forgiveness. Distinguishing between guilt and punishment becomes very important because guilt means that someone has the "liability of guilt" and the "liability of punishment".
I recently flagged this article by disputing its neutrality partly because there is a lack of detail on this very subject. This is because I feel that the nature of indulgences being only for temporal punishment is being left unexplained and possibly minimized. Technically as long as a Catholic confesses their sins the only punishment they will ever face (based on their own dogma) is temporal punishment (in Purgatory I think? no sure about that... ). I can't help but feel that the lack of this information is being used to minimize the significance of an indulgence. If someone can theoretically perform a mortal sin, go to confession and then get an indulgence they would theoretically face no punishment whatsoever. In an economic sense no one would pay for confession because confession is always free, making an indulgence the thing of value. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maigo.opetrenko ( talk • contribs) 17:24, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
After reading the article over a couple of times I believe there is a great reference point that can be used to explain what temporal sin/punishment is and what indulgences do in a much more concise manner. The word to compare it to is karma. The concept of temporal sin is basically the idea of karma. You do bad things, which disconnect you from God's Grace, which causes you to be punished in the material world and/or spend time in purgatory if you die before you absolve yourself of those sins. Therefore, indulgences are essentially a way to reduce your bad karma. You do certain things for, or in the name of, the Church, and they say that your karmic sentence is reduced. This is a simplified explanation of what this article is about that connects it to something most people have heard of and have a basic understanding of.
74.191.67.11 (
talk) 14:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
In 1985, my in-laws were ordered to pay $15000 to a Catholic church in Houston TX for indulgences/temporal punishment for my brother-in-law when he met an untimely death. Stop lying to people saying there is no such thing. [1] 98.20.200.15 ( talk) 14:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)RM
References
are there not historic attestations to indulgences that were acts of simony? 67.171.233.221 ( talk) 13:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
In 1985, my in-laws were ordered to pay $15000 to a Catholic church in Houston TX for indulgences/temporal punishment for my brother-in-law when he met an untimely death. [1] 98.20.200.15 (talk) 14:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)RM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.20.200.15 ( talk)
From what I've read on the subject, indulgences crept up in the Greek Church as a Latinization. There were apparently a number of councils that formed to directly address these Latinizations, it was just that the matter of the absolution certificates wasn't realized as one until the 19th century, and it wasn't until the 20th century that they were completely rooted out. I assume that they were excused for so long due to the heavy taxes, which the article does mention, that were levied on Christians (especially the Church) by the Ottomans; they excused their extortion of the laity to pay off Ottoman extortion of the Church. The evidence available shows no real history of them before the 16th century, yet the article makes it sound like they were there since the beginning. They were only officially noted in Church writings somewhere in the 17th or 18th century. I think, as currently written, it sounds a bit misleading. - HawkeyE ( talk) 06:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
This article misrepresents Luther's critique in the 95 theses, or at least is so unclear as to be misleading. Luther did not "reject the Pope's authority to grant pardons." In fact in the theses he specifically affirms that the Pope, along with bishops, has the authority to absolve sins. His criticism has to do on the one hand with the impression that common people were receiving, which was that buying indulgences could free loved ones from purgatory or somehow granted them the right to sin with impunity. On the other Luther pointed out that temporal punishments associated with sin could not be remitted by the church because those punishments were not determined by clergy or the church but by God, and moreover that the temporal punishments inflicted by God on earth or in purgatory (which Luther still acknowledged in the writing of the theses) were beneficial for the forgiven sinner. Truly penitent sinners, he writes, are glad to receive afflictions from God because through them God crucifies the old man. He acknowledges that the Pope can remit ecclesiastical penalties laid out in canon law, but raises several strong objections--first of all, those penalties had fallen into disuse anyway, so the indulgence is superfluous. Secondly, canon law does not impose ecclesiastical penalties on the dying or the souls in purgatory anyway. Third, if the pope did have the authority to remit temporal punishments either in purgatory or on earth, charity would seem to dictate that he simply grant plenary indulgences gratuitously, just as absolution is granted to penitent or contrite sinners without payment. A reading of the 95 theses--which are not very long--would make it clear that the present wording of the article misrepresents Luther's critique. Even after maturing in his theology, Luther taught until the end of his life that ministers had been given the authority to forgive sins in Christ's name. Whatever footnote is cited to back up the claim that Luther denied that bishops or the pope have the authority to pardon needs to be checked. Finally, since the sale of indulgences is so critical to the history of Lutheranism in particular and by extension to the rest of protestantism, this ought not simply to be an article detailing catholic dogma concerning indulgences but needs to have an extended section discussing the implications of Rome's teaching on indulgences for the larger critique of the Roman church by fully developed Lutheran and Reformed theology. The Luther who wrote the 95 theses does not seem to express the "Lutheran" doctrine of justification by faith in Christ alone that came to characterize the reformation of the church triggered by these abuses of indulgences in Germany. In general, doing justice to this topic requires acknowledging the significance of indulgences for protestants, getting what the 95 theses say right, and making clear that the critique of the 95 theses is not at all the same as the general protestant rejection of catholic teaching on indulgences, nor is it even Luther's later critique, nor does it represent Lutheran teaching on confession and absolution, repentance, human merit, or justification. It is very much a criticism written by a Roman Catholic monk not outside of the mainstream of catholic theology at the time. The 95 theses were very well received by church leaders who were unwilling to follow Luther's later teaching. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.31.123.200 ( talk) 17:12, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
The text seems unnecessarily complex, with a penchant for abstract language over concrete. The introductory paragraph should at least be comprehensible to a non-Catholic. There is no lucid one-sentence definition of "indulgence."
"In Catholic theology, an indulgence is the full or partial remission of temporal punishment[1] due for sins which have already been forgiven."
This might read better as something like "Once a sin has been forgiven, a Catholic can be granted an indulgence from the Church to lessen the amount of time the person might otherwise spend in prayer, good works, and other penance."
There, concrete rather than abstract.
And this:
Indulgences replaced the severe penances of the early Church.[4] More exactly, they replaced the shortening of those penances that was allowed at the intercession of those imprisoned and those awaiting martyrdom for the faith.
If the first sentence is inexact and misleading, why is it there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.117.19 ( talk) 19:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
The opening summary can double as a list of catholic jargon. It makes no sense to someone without a deep understanding of catholicism. Russ1642 ( talk) 19:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, all I did was summarize what the article said, or so I thought. Trouble is, that even your explanation given above makes very little sense to me as a non-Catholic. Wikipedia ought to make sense to people who don't know all about theology as well. As for your claim that it is a myth that indulgences are sold, then perhaps someone should change the language in the article, where it mentions "Greedy commissaries sought to extract the maximum amount of money for each indulgence", the Church using indulgences to fund their projects, even a reference to "aggressive marketing" of indulgences. If that isn't the language of retail, I don't know what it is. If all of that is totally inaccurate, then it ought to plainly say so. And I just went through the entire article carefully, and I don't seen ANYTHING that appears to "debunk" the idea of indulgences were "ever" sold. Are you claiming that they DIDN'T sell in indulgences in the Middle Ages? If you would kindly point out the lines where it says "indulgences are not now, nor ever were, given to church members in exchange for monetary contributions", I could greatly appreciate it. As it is, there is a part of the article which seems to very plainly say that they DID sell indulgences for money. You shouldn't have one article saying two different things, in any case. If there is some scholarly dispute as to whether it ever happened, it ought to say "other scholars deny that this ever happened, for ____ reason". Again, I see nothing that would suggest clearly that what it states in the body of the article is incorrect. Of course, I'm at a disadvantage, not being a theology student. There must be a way to phrase all this apparently essential obscure detail in plain English; it shouldn't be required to copy the language directly out of whatever book of Catholic Doctrines its written in. Anyway, if indulgences WEREN'T sold, it needs to very clearly state as such, for plain people, because that was what I and tens of thousands of people were taught in High School. Literally. Normal people ought to be able to benefit from Wikipedia as well. They deserve to have their ignorance removed (if, indeed, what were taught is false), and articles like this are not the way to do it. And I appreciate your adding a "simple statement" of the meaning of indulgences to replace the one I used (not that I see how that was incorrect...and I didn't write it, I used the one the first commenter came up with), but your sentence just raises more questions...how is "reduces the punishment" better than "reduces the time spent in penance"? One thing that I can glean from the article is that there is TWO kinds of "punishment" (although personally I think it's kind of messed up that they consider praying and doing good works a form of "punishment"). I would think that saying "penance" is a good way to demonstrate that it DOESN'T refer to Damnation, etc. "Punishment" can mean either type of punishment, and saying "temporal punishment" isn't going to make things any clearer for the average person. How is "prayer, good works, and other penance" different from "temporal punishment"? And if the article itself doesn't say anything about purgatory, what good would it do to mention it in the "simple explanation" for plain people? If both me and the other guy read the article and apparently came away with same "inaccurate" idea of what it was saying, then maybe that's a problem with the article itself. If ALL of your students fail the test, maybe it's a problem with you, not them. I would be extremely happy if some knowledgeable person would summarize the idea behind indulgences, but it's been several years since the first commenter brought the subject up, and no-one had bothered to do so. And while your at it, what ARE indulgences? It (sort of)explains what they DO, and WHY, but what ARE they? Who gives them out, and how? Could they be considered a form of reprieve? A partial pardon? .45Colt 04:47, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
The legend to the Breu woodcut (at Indulgence#Late_medieval_abuses paragraph) claimed that the image shows sale of indulgences. That is not correct. The topic of the image is inflation or in the language of the original legend "abundance of money". The mintmaker answers to this there are 3 reasons: 1. the pope and his indulgences, 2. coining of bad coins (=containing less silver than legal), 3. traders who use wrong weights and measurements. cf. - Thus the image does not show trade of indulgences, it illustrates the 3 mentioned reasons for inflation (including the mounted Pope). CF http://www.bildindex.de/obj16001144.html#%7Chome Depictions of the trade are here: Preacher and cashier, Pope on throne with letters, monk cashing Kipala ( talk) 06:55, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
The article lacks a clear account of the different types of indulgences (plenary, partial, local etc etc), which really deserves its own section, I would suggest straight after the lead. Johnbod ( talk) 03:49, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
The first image is not "A Catholic bishop granting plenary indulgences for the public during times of calamity." It is a wall fresco by Italian artist Lorenzo Lotto, Suardi, Italy, circa 1524 depicting St. Brigid taking the veil [3] -one of a series on the Legend of St. Brigid, and doesn't have a blessed thing to do with indulgences except apparently in the mind of the OP, and OR at that. Manannan67 ( talk) 02:36, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Is there an article for the other meaning of "indulgence": "A pleasure that one partakes in on occasion"? For example, "Smoking a cigarette while intoxicated is an indulgence of many young men." I would like to find a way to differentiate between these two phenomena. Joesom333 ( talk) 23:58, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
Unfortunatley, the word "indulgence" means somthing different to working class America ns, like myself, than the word meant during the 1400s and 1500s within the catholic church. What are 2 or 3specific examples of indulgences provided by one church member to another as documented in Vatican records. Paperpineapple ( talk) 03:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
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