![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The assertion that the converse is true is not a neutral stance on the debate. Tedweverka ( talk) 16:44, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
I changed the image, because has not so much image quality nor, in my opinion, pedagogical value. I added a vending machine. Vending machines are also a case of induced demand. As more items of a certain product are available in the vending machine, the consumers are more likely to acquire them. Induced demand is not limited to transport. João Pimentel Ferreira ( talk) 21:39, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
That's agreeable. My point was that this is an article about induced demand in economics, not in in the transport sector, and therefore it seemed to me with a very limited approach. And why did you remove my referral to other WP article about the effects of the car in societies? Thank you. João Pimentel Ferreira ( talk) 09:02, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
For example https://www.cato.org/blog/debunking-induced-demand-myth and http://www.uctc.net/access/22/Access%2022%20-%2004%20-%20Induced%20Travel%20Studies.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by MathewMunro ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
This page is supposed to be about induced demand or latent demand, and yet is entirely about induced traffic.
I suggest that either this page be merged with the induced traffic page, or else that it be more generalised. I came to this page after a discussion at work about latent demand that had nothing to do with traffic. 202.37.32.2 ( talk) 02:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I think the problem is that we have a not very good article on induced demand generally (which seems not to be considered a high priority in economics) but which could easily be a very good article on induced traffic specifically (which is certainly a very high priority in discussions of transport policy, sustainability, congestion, and roads planning). I appreciate that the question of naming has been addressed several times, but I would like to have a go at changing this back to induced traffic, some rewriting and adding new references, and then making a cross reference to what would then at best be a stub for induced demand more widely. I'll leave this suggestion here for a little while before starting, to see if there are objections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hackneycab ( talk • contribs) 13:50, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I agree with the OP. This article is almost exclusively about the disadvantages of increasing road capacity and private motor vehicle use, delving into irrelevant points like pollution and global warming. This is supposed to be an article about the economics of 'Induced Demand', not about the pros and cons of private transport! Booksacool1 ( talk) 00:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Attempts to constrict development and economic growth in order to stimulate public transport and personal bicycle transport use ignore the global economy and escape of assumed bounds. People and/or businesses can simply move to places with lower transportation and other costs. These could be exurbs, other states, or developing nations. Besides relocating, people reduce their transportation and time costs traveling to local business by ordering online, another loss to the local economy.
Examples where excess supply does not bring use or demand would be US cities like Detroit and Flint Michigan, where surplus housing, roads, factories, and workers exist. Employers failed, shrunk, or left for locations with lower cost. Areas in US states of Florida, Nevada, and Arizona experienced much housing development ahead of demand by 2008 that is projected to remain vacant for some time. Many people moved from industrial Michigan and fewer than hoped, to overdeveloped places. Mark Kaepplein ( talk) 06:18, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I see several terms used in development documents (generated, induced, diverted traffic), and I would like to suggest that some discussion of the definitions, distinctions and approaches to quantifying these would be helpful. Illustrations or examples might strengthen the discussion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.79.62.18 ( talk) 04:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
I attempted to clarify some of the definitions in a discussion of the sources of induced traffic. -- A Melbourne ( talk) 07:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
This article states that induced demand is no different than the normal change in consumption on a supply and demand curve when the supply is changed. If that is so, induced demand need not have a separate definition from latent demand. -- Tedweverka ( talk) 23:29, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Of course, building new roads can actually decrease traffic flow ( Braess' Paradox). PML.
Braess Paradox doesn't say capacity decreases flow, it says new roads under very specific circumstances, increase travel time. (By extension, with elastic demand, demand may ultimately drop, but I think Braess's paper assumed fixed demand. someone ought to write it out ... dml
I expanded the induced traffic page considerably, before noticing that there were other pages for induced travel demand and induced demand. Since they all seem to be saying pretty much the same thing, they should probably be merged into one (I suggest this one).
Dave A 22:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Merge is now complete.
Dave A 18:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm concerned about not having induced traffic as its own entry, because it's really not the same thing as induced demand, which is a broader economic concept. Induced traffic has specific real-world policy implications. The result of the merge has been that induced travel demand and induced traffic are given remarkable prominence in the overall concept. There are other forms of induced demand, such as demand for in the US for petrol, food, and certain utilities, that are generated by inflated supply -- they have differenet policy implications. If anyone later edits this article to reduce it's traffic focus, as they would perhaps be entitled to do, we might have to re-create induced travel and induced traffic demand. Thesmothete 21:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I did consider that, but since the previous induced demand article covered broadly the same topics, I thought it best to merge them. I understand the problem though - but I would suggest recreating just one of those additional pages rather than both, if necessary. Dave A 10:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
== Cut from freeway article == (NPOV anyone) dml In the Atlanta metro area, for example, the former governor of Georgia proposed a massive 210-mile (340km) expressway encircling the suburbs, costing billions of dollars, and destroying dozens of rural farms and exurban homes (potentially hundreds if development continued in its eventual path). Some equated it to heart bypass surgery (in this case, Atlanta's original Perimeter, Interstate 285), with the patient ignoring warnings and failing to do anything to prevent it from happening again. The opponents of the expansion won out when a new governor was elected in late 2002, but it underscored the destruction which occurs anywhere with such freeways, frequently including a legacy of urban blight and suburban sprawl.
I think the articles need to be separate here, the induced travel demand should be on its own page, and induced demand should be general, not including specific examples but rather referencing them. Jamie Q
though they are similar, the two terms are not interchangeable. one way to think of the difference: Latent demand is a part of the phenomenon of induced demand. induced demand is an increase due to more capacity. latent demand is potential demand but is constrained because of congestion, kind of like potential energy stored until it's released. Source: ‘Suburban Nation’ by Andres Duany et al [1] :: “This condition is best explained by what specialists call latent demand. Since the real constraint on driving is traffic, not cost, people are always ready to make more trips when the traffic goes away. The number of latent trips is huge--perhaps 30 percent of existing traffic. Because of latent demand, adding lanes is futile, since drivers are already poised to use them up.” El duderino ( abides) 06:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
"Induced demand" and "latent demand" are distinct terms: in name, in use, and etymologically. An online survey of the terms' use quickly and thoroughly confirms this. I have found no source that suggests otherwise. No source is needed to assert that "induced demand" is different from "latent demand" any more than to assert that an infant is understood to be smaller than an adult. One can talk about "induced demand" without mentioning "latent demand"; the onus is on the person who asserts that "induced demand" is the same a "latent demand" to show those terms are the same or analogous. Cmoneti ( talk) 16:53, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
The current page defines induced demand by its consquence, but it refers to a phenomenon due to plain old "demand". Plain old demand is the phenomenon that after supply increases, more of a good is consumed.-- 73.229.196.41 ( talk) 18:43, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
I've made
a couple of consecutive edits today per
MOS:ENGVAR (particularly
MOS:ARTCON) from "travelled" to "traveled" and "travelling" to "traveling", as it appears to me that most of the article is written in US English. At the same time I changed "vehicle-kilometres" to "vehicle-miles" as the rest of the article states distances in miles... there is only one use outside a quote (200 miles) and I am not sure whether this would benefit from a {{
convert}}
), and I'm also not sure if "vehicle-mile" needs the hyphenation (it is not hyphenated in a quote).
94.21.10.214 (
talk)
09:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
"In the short term, increased travel on new road space can come from one of two sources: diverted travel and induced traffic."
No. Over-density & over-development lead to a repression of possible travel. When roads appear, they are used. This is why we are headed towards a major disaster as we have people who think they know, when they don't.
Nantucketnoon ( talk) 08:56, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
An editor is attempting to add material sourced to a bachelor's theses. WP:SCHOLARSHIP has this to say:
Dissertations – Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources. Some of them will have gone through a process of academic peer reviewing, of varying levels of rigor, but some will not. If possible, use theses that have been cited in the literature; supervised by recognized specialists in the field; or reviewed by independent parties. Dissertations in progress have not been vetted and are not regarded as published and are thus not reliable sources as a rule. Some theses are later published in the form of scholarly monographs or peer reviewed articles, and, if available, these are usually preferable to the original thesis as sources. Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence.
Clearly, a bachelor's thesis does not qualify as a reliable source under these criteria. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 22:28, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The assertion that the converse is true is not a neutral stance on the debate. Tedweverka ( talk) 16:44, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
I changed the image, because has not so much image quality nor, in my opinion, pedagogical value. I added a vending machine. Vending machines are also a case of induced demand. As more items of a certain product are available in the vending machine, the consumers are more likely to acquire them. Induced demand is not limited to transport. João Pimentel Ferreira ( talk) 21:39, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
That's agreeable. My point was that this is an article about induced demand in economics, not in in the transport sector, and therefore it seemed to me with a very limited approach. And why did you remove my referral to other WP article about the effects of the car in societies? Thank you. João Pimentel Ferreira ( talk) 09:02, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
For example https://www.cato.org/blog/debunking-induced-demand-myth and http://www.uctc.net/access/22/Access%2022%20-%2004%20-%20Induced%20Travel%20Studies.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by MathewMunro ( talk • contribs) 01:55, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
This page is supposed to be about induced demand or latent demand, and yet is entirely about induced traffic.
I suggest that either this page be merged with the induced traffic page, or else that it be more generalised. I came to this page after a discussion at work about latent demand that had nothing to do with traffic. 202.37.32.2 ( talk) 02:15, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I think the problem is that we have a not very good article on induced demand generally (which seems not to be considered a high priority in economics) but which could easily be a very good article on induced traffic specifically (which is certainly a very high priority in discussions of transport policy, sustainability, congestion, and roads planning). I appreciate that the question of naming has been addressed several times, but I would like to have a go at changing this back to induced traffic, some rewriting and adding new references, and then making a cross reference to what would then at best be a stub for induced demand more widely. I'll leave this suggestion here for a little while before starting, to see if there are objections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hackneycab ( talk • contribs) 13:50, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I agree with the OP. This article is almost exclusively about the disadvantages of increasing road capacity and private motor vehicle use, delving into irrelevant points like pollution and global warming. This is supposed to be an article about the economics of 'Induced Demand', not about the pros and cons of private transport! Booksacool1 ( talk) 00:09, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Attempts to constrict development and economic growth in order to stimulate public transport and personal bicycle transport use ignore the global economy and escape of assumed bounds. People and/or businesses can simply move to places with lower transportation and other costs. These could be exurbs, other states, or developing nations. Besides relocating, people reduce their transportation and time costs traveling to local business by ordering online, another loss to the local economy.
Examples where excess supply does not bring use or demand would be US cities like Detroit and Flint Michigan, where surplus housing, roads, factories, and workers exist. Employers failed, shrunk, or left for locations with lower cost. Areas in US states of Florida, Nevada, and Arizona experienced much housing development ahead of demand by 2008 that is projected to remain vacant for some time. Many people moved from industrial Michigan and fewer than hoped, to overdeveloped places. Mark Kaepplein ( talk) 06:18, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
I see several terms used in development documents (generated, induced, diverted traffic), and I would like to suggest that some discussion of the definitions, distinctions and approaches to quantifying these would be helpful. Illustrations or examples might strengthen the discussion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.79.62.18 ( talk) 04:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
I attempted to clarify some of the definitions in a discussion of the sources of induced traffic. -- A Melbourne ( talk) 07:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
This article states that induced demand is no different than the normal change in consumption on a supply and demand curve when the supply is changed. If that is so, induced demand need not have a separate definition from latent demand. -- Tedweverka ( talk) 23:29, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Of course, building new roads can actually decrease traffic flow ( Braess' Paradox). PML.
Braess Paradox doesn't say capacity decreases flow, it says new roads under very specific circumstances, increase travel time. (By extension, with elastic demand, demand may ultimately drop, but I think Braess's paper assumed fixed demand. someone ought to write it out ... dml
I expanded the induced traffic page considerably, before noticing that there were other pages for induced travel demand and induced demand. Since they all seem to be saying pretty much the same thing, they should probably be merged into one (I suggest this one).
Dave A 22:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Merge is now complete.
Dave A 18:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm concerned about not having induced traffic as its own entry, because it's really not the same thing as induced demand, which is a broader economic concept. Induced traffic has specific real-world policy implications. The result of the merge has been that induced travel demand and induced traffic are given remarkable prominence in the overall concept. There are other forms of induced demand, such as demand for in the US for petrol, food, and certain utilities, that are generated by inflated supply -- they have differenet policy implications. If anyone later edits this article to reduce it's traffic focus, as they would perhaps be entitled to do, we might have to re-create induced travel and induced traffic demand. Thesmothete 21:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I did consider that, but since the previous induced demand article covered broadly the same topics, I thought it best to merge them. I understand the problem though - but I would suggest recreating just one of those additional pages rather than both, if necessary. Dave A 10:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
== Cut from freeway article == (NPOV anyone) dml In the Atlanta metro area, for example, the former governor of Georgia proposed a massive 210-mile (340km) expressway encircling the suburbs, costing billions of dollars, and destroying dozens of rural farms and exurban homes (potentially hundreds if development continued in its eventual path). Some equated it to heart bypass surgery (in this case, Atlanta's original Perimeter, Interstate 285), with the patient ignoring warnings and failing to do anything to prevent it from happening again. The opponents of the expansion won out when a new governor was elected in late 2002, but it underscored the destruction which occurs anywhere with such freeways, frequently including a legacy of urban blight and suburban sprawl.
I think the articles need to be separate here, the induced travel demand should be on its own page, and induced demand should be general, not including specific examples but rather referencing them. Jamie Q
though they are similar, the two terms are not interchangeable. one way to think of the difference: Latent demand is a part of the phenomenon of induced demand. induced demand is an increase due to more capacity. latent demand is potential demand but is constrained because of congestion, kind of like potential energy stored until it's released. Source: ‘Suburban Nation’ by Andres Duany et al [1] :: “This condition is best explained by what specialists call latent demand. Since the real constraint on driving is traffic, not cost, people are always ready to make more trips when the traffic goes away. The number of latent trips is huge--perhaps 30 percent of existing traffic. Because of latent demand, adding lanes is futile, since drivers are already poised to use them up.” El duderino ( abides) 06:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
"Induced demand" and "latent demand" are distinct terms: in name, in use, and etymologically. An online survey of the terms' use quickly and thoroughly confirms this. I have found no source that suggests otherwise. No source is needed to assert that "induced demand" is different from "latent demand" any more than to assert that an infant is understood to be smaller than an adult. One can talk about "induced demand" without mentioning "latent demand"; the onus is on the person who asserts that "induced demand" is the same a "latent demand" to show those terms are the same or analogous. Cmoneti ( talk) 16:53, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
The current page defines induced demand by its consquence, but it refers to a phenomenon due to plain old "demand". Plain old demand is the phenomenon that after supply increases, more of a good is consumed.-- 73.229.196.41 ( talk) 18:43, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
I've made
a couple of consecutive edits today per
MOS:ENGVAR (particularly
MOS:ARTCON) from "travelled" to "traveled" and "travelling" to "traveling", as it appears to me that most of the article is written in US English. At the same time I changed "vehicle-kilometres" to "vehicle-miles" as the rest of the article states distances in miles... there is only one use outside a quote (200 miles) and I am not sure whether this would benefit from a {{
convert}}
), and I'm also not sure if "vehicle-mile" needs the hyphenation (it is not hyphenated in a quote).
94.21.10.214 (
talk)
09:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
"In the short term, increased travel on new road space can come from one of two sources: diverted travel and induced traffic."
No. Over-density & over-development lead to a repression of possible travel. When roads appear, they are used. This is why we are headed towards a major disaster as we have people who think they know, when they don't.
Nantucketnoon ( talk) 08:56, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
An editor is attempting to add material sourced to a bachelor's theses. WP:SCHOLARSHIP has this to say:
Dissertations – Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a doctorate, and which are publicly available (most via interlibrary loan or from Proquest), can be used but care should be exercised, as they are often, in part, primary sources. Some of them will have gone through a process of academic peer reviewing, of varying levels of rigor, but some will not. If possible, use theses that have been cited in the literature; supervised by recognized specialists in the field; or reviewed by independent parties. Dissertations in progress have not been vetted and are not regarded as published and are thus not reliable sources as a rule. Some theses are later published in the form of scholarly monographs or peer reviewed articles, and, if available, these are usually preferable to the original thesis as sources. Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence.
Clearly, a bachelor's thesis does not qualify as a reliable source under these criteria. Beyond My Ken ( talk) 22:28, 5 February 2022 (UTC)