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Name change vote (ends: Call for votes Ends 12:00 UMT 13 September, 2004)
have you ever wondered what a Harry Enfield rifle would be like....? JHK
Brahmins are the scholars and priests; while the situation has changed today and the strict occupational taboos are almost non-existent, at the time of the First Indian War of Independence there were probably no brahmins in the army. Need to verify this. pasokan
It is called a mutiny because the historians who wrote it were British! The name of Vincent Smith readily comes to mind.
Oh and yes. It is a VERY SERIOUS NPOV issue. Aalahazrat
I think the appropriate thing to do is to make the title of the article "First war of Indian independence" and make Sepoy Mutiny a redirect. Any further objections ? It could be classed as a mutiny, or a revolt but not a war. Calling it the 'First war of Indian independence' is simply putting a modern spin on something that happened over 150 years ago. rsloch
Below is a list of names that have all been surgested for the title of the two articals that need mearging. it is not compleate, but i dont think that should stop uis on desiding one of them. None are perfect, all have been mentioned in this talk page. some have hade more discussion than others, but i cant see any reason why we cant all deside on one out of this list, even if it means going to our second or third choise.
~~
There are two separate issues here. One is what we should refer to the event as within the article, and the other is what we should title the article. As for the first question, my views are clear: I'd prefer it to be called a war of independence. Its an NPOV issue. Naming is an entirely different matter, and the wikipedia conventions on naming are unambigyous: we use the name that is most common among English speakers. And that name, I think, is either Sepoy mutiny or Indian mutiny. Offensiveness so some people doesn't count, unless the majority of people are highly offended by it. That's not the case here, either. The idea is to use the title which the casual reader is most likely to find. A truly NPOV name like The armed conflict of 1857 in India which the British have labeled the Indian Mutiny and Indians refer to as the First War of Independence doesn't quite serve that purpose.
Let me give a couple of examples to make the matter clear: the word Mecca is apparently offensive to Muslims, due to a brand of whiskey of that name, and the official name of that city is Makkah. But, you see, we haven't moved the article. Similarly, the Aryan Invasion Theory is no longer accepted by the majority of historians, and indeed, in its original form is considered racist (some "theory", that). However, the Aryan question and its related hypotheses are collectively discussed under the moniker which is most commonly attached to the issue.
Arvindn 15:56, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The lawful authority in northern India at the time was the Mughal empire (at least, as many of the 'mutineers' saw it). The Company was another tributary power of the Mughal's, and one that was usurping their lawful authority. From this premise, the events of 1857, and the final passing of power from the Company to the British Crown, can be considered to be the final war of Indian subjugation, rather than the first war of Independence. The later Independence movements started decades after this, from different political roots, and there was little or no continuity between them and the 1857 event.
Imc 22:38, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The rifle cartridges in question could not possibly be for the Lee-Enfield, which wasn't going to be invented for about 50 years. The weapon in question is almost certainly the .557 calibre P/53 Enfield, to which I will change the article. Maury 00:16, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
No one has wrapped this up. Let us please make a vote. I'm assuming this 'edit' will attract involved persons via the watchlist function and so we'll be able to vote. We can decide the time limit of the vote when more people come and discuss it (I won't be so brash as to decide when it ends, but I do wish for it to begin, because this issue is lagging).
The name options are War of Independence of 1857 and "Sepoy/Indian Mutiny" (I group the latter two as they're part of the same naming viewpoint).
FOR War of Independence of 1857 & AGAINST "Sepoy/Indian Mutiny"
FOR "Sepoy/Indian Mutiny" & AGAINST War of Independence of 1857
In spite of spare involvement by sectors in these areas, I still find that the world war appellation is technically invalid. Obviously, I can appreciate that in the context of world history it's the closest we've ever had, but my point is that nitpicking about the nature of the name and its lack of geographical distinction does not seem sound, and that War of Independence of 1857 is specific enough being that there weren't any other major wars of independence specifically in 1857. And yes, as I've said above, there are many places which still use the Indian Mutiny name out of habit, including many Indian quarters. I never argued that no Indian uses the name. However, I did say that "war of Independence" is gaining popularity because many people have realized the implications of 'mutiny.' You merely presented me with instances of Indians who use it. Sure. There are Hindus in India who refer to religious icons as 'idols' merely because they grew up with the term, not because they believe that they're worshipping the stone when in fact Hindus venerate its symbolism. You would not argue that there are many Indians, starting from Subhas Chandra Bose, who pointed out the word "mutiny"'s inadequacy as a marker for the rebellion and that since there is increasing discontent with its use. It makes little sense in the historical sense for reasons stated above. "principle of least surprise" in my opinion is superceded by factual inaccuracy and political incorrectness. There are about 1.5 million (or so) more google hits for 'piss' than there are for 'urine', and yet we've named the urine article urine, and not piss. We can effectively redirect 'Indian Mutiny' to 'War of Independence of 1857.' -- LordSuryaofShropshire 22:14, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
I think the urine/piss thing is absolutely relevant. Just because it uses a subject which you find distasteful doesn't change the fact of this article's offensiveness and rabid P-O-V title, as urine/piss demonstrate. The spread of usage I believe still comes second to inaccuracy and offensiveness. You may quote Indians on having used the term but it's a weak statistic since Indians unknowingly use many names and terms in self-reference in English because they've inherited them from an English colonial past. As it is, in any OBJECTIVE academic context it is plain to see how the name is faulty, regardless of the background of the speaker. Secondly, your placement-argument for "War of Independence of 1857" is biased to the nth degree. Just because a name doesn't immediately geographically localize the subject doesn't render it incorrect or inadequate. As it is, it as the only "War of Independence of 1857" that we know of, and thus is quite specific. If you want we can call it the Indian "War of Independence of 1857" for the article title. -- LordSuryaofShropshire 01:47, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
The article Indian independence movement also has a large section that was copied from these two articles. Maybe make this section into a stub and link to War of Independence of 1857 or Indian Mutiny? -- Chris 73 | Talk 05:15, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I hope this helps:
Sarvarkar was most likely the first person to term the, er, events of 1857 a war of independence. The "first" appellation also comes from him. Obviously, Sarvarkar's opinion might be worth a mention given the continuing importance of the RSS in Indian politics.
To my knowledge, professional historians (Indian or otherwise) tend not to use the term "Independence" for 1857, let alone "first", because (as was mentioned somewhere above) there seems to be general agreement that there is no continuity between 1857 and the post-1885 (when the Indian National Congress was founded) era leading to Independence in 1947. "Mutiny" and "Sepoy" is, however, avoided, not for their (possible) pejorative connotations, but because the evidence seems to indicate a much wider participation against the British than just from mutinous sepoys.
This leaves 1857 and "revolt"/"rebellion". To pick two examples from heavyweight (but older) historians, C.A. Bayly, in Rulers, Townsmen, and Bazaars (Cambridge University Press, 1983) uses "1857 rebellion"; and Bipan Chandra et al, in India's struggle for Independence (Penguin, 1989) uses "1857 revolt".
I suggest something like Indian revolt of 1857 as a compromise between Mutiny and Independence, but with plenty of NPOV on this topic explicitly in the article as this discussion, with suitable style changes, is relevant in an encyclopedia.
Just my two paise from a Wikipedia newbie. siva99 08:31, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Vote on the Name Change of the merged
Indian Mutiny and
War of Independence of 1857.
Cut and paste to enter your vote for support:
# ~~~~
I'm too late to vote but it's turned out well. I'll just remind Mintguy that force of habit with a name and resultant piles of literature using the name doesn't change the fact that it's an insulting and factually inaccurate misnomer that's been undergoing a lot of scrutiny by many scholars in spite of the willingness of the majority to just 'stick with what's familiar'. -- LordSuryaofShropshire 21:59, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
Books by Indian and Pakistani Authors -
I would like to re-iterate that whatever the combined article is called, we must, must have a note or section in it discussing exactly the point that the British colonial authorities, histories of different ilks (is that plural a real word), and today's South Asians all have different ways of characterizing those events. How the discussion of those events has shaped history and how it continues to shape the consciousness of all these parties is an extremely important part of the historical narrative surrounding the whole issue. I hate to re-state the obvious, but this is, after all, an encyclopedia.-- iFaqeer 22:07, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
Having looked through the article, there are some likely errors. I'm posting those I've noticed here first, in case of comments. Some of these may be partially corrected in the other article, but not sufficiently to leap out at me.
Current Indian mutiny article.
No, surely it is quite clear that the rebellion was not united. For instance, the Sikhs, Nepalis, and most people who did not want the restoration of the Mughals did not join in.
AFAIK, the rebellion did not involve Bengal at all. It involved Bengal Presidency lands which is a different thing.
Was not at least one of these killed a grandson rather than a son? Also was it established that Hodson did this under his own authority? Imc 15:42, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have taken it upon myself, as someone interested in history but with no great knowledge of these events, to perform the merge. I have tried to make sure that nothing is lost or changed dramatically, paragraphs have been moved around, spellings made consistant and a few lines altered for readablity. MeltBanana 17:30, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'm loathe to bring this up again, but seeing as the name of the article was decided by such a tiny number of people I feel somewhat emboldened to do so. I have two problems I'd like to raise regarding "Indian rebellion of 1857". The first is the use of the lower case "r" in "rebellion" - if this event is (beyond just Wikipedia) sometimes known as "Indian rebellion of 1857", then surely the "r" should be upper case? And this is where my second problem arises: isn't this name just a little too underused outside of Wikipedia to be truly useful? Searching the Internet I find almost all references to "Indian rebellion of 1857" derive from the Wikipedia article, and there are very few references to "Indian Rebellion of 1857". Meanwhile, the Library of Congress and many other sources give as an authoritative name for the event: "Sepoy Rebellion", which is both commonly used and NPOV. I find it odd that the above dicussion of the article name so rapidly became polarised to the limited choice of "War of Independence of 1857" (and variations) vs. "Sepoy/Indian Mutiny" (and variations); i.e. War of Independence vs. Mutiny. Although an anonymous editor provided a comprehensive list of choices (under Pick a name, any name), including "Sepoy Rebellion", the latter wasn't included in the final vote, itself limited to only 5 choices. So, with misgivings I'd like to suggest that the article be yet again renamed - this time to "Sepoy Rebellion", a name that is common (only a little less common than Indian Mutiny), NPOV, backed up by authoritative sources/references, and genuinely helpful in accurately suggesting the event in question (unlike "Indian rebellion of 1857", which in spite of the date seems too vague - it could just as easily be seen to refer to one of the US-Indian wars on the American Plains...). Any thoughts? Pinkville 15:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it odd that anyone would want a war, the cause of which was based on stark ignorance ("breaking caste"), so badly fought (battles regularly lost by the "revolutionaries" despite 20:1 odds in the Indian favor), the horrific massacres initiated by the "revolutionaries" and total lack of leadership. In contrast to later Indian independence movements, this whole bloody rebellion should be looked on with more shame and embarrasment than anything else. Its like the US taking pride of Mai Laior bagram. Naerhu 09:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Name change vote (ends: Call for votes Ends 12:00 UMT 13 September, 2004)
have you ever wondered what a Harry Enfield rifle would be like....? JHK
Brahmins are the scholars and priests; while the situation has changed today and the strict occupational taboos are almost non-existent, at the time of the First Indian War of Independence there were probably no brahmins in the army. Need to verify this. pasokan
It is called a mutiny because the historians who wrote it were British! The name of Vincent Smith readily comes to mind.
Oh and yes. It is a VERY SERIOUS NPOV issue. Aalahazrat
I think the appropriate thing to do is to make the title of the article "First war of Indian independence" and make Sepoy Mutiny a redirect. Any further objections ? It could be classed as a mutiny, or a revolt but not a war. Calling it the 'First war of Indian independence' is simply putting a modern spin on something that happened over 150 years ago. rsloch
Below is a list of names that have all been surgested for the title of the two articals that need mearging. it is not compleate, but i dont think that should stop uis on desiding one of them. None are perfect, all have been mentioned in this talk page. some have hade more discussion than others, but i cant see any reason why we cant all deside on one out of this list, even if it means going to our second or third choise.
~~
There are two separate issues here. One is what we should refer to the event as within the article, and the other is what we should title the article. As for the first question, my views are clear: I'd prefer it to be called a war of independence. Its an NPOV issue. Naming is an entirely different matter, and the wikipedia conventions on naming are unambigyous: we use the name that is most common among English speakers. And that name, I think, is either Sepoy mutiny or Indian mutiny. Offensiveness so some people doesn't count, unless the majority of people are highly offended by it. That's not the case here, either. The idea is to use the title which the casual reader is most likely to find. A truly NPOV name like The armed conflict of 1857 in India which the British have labeled the Indian Mutiny and Indians refer to as the First War of Independence doesn't quite serve that purpose.
Let me give a couple of examples to make the matter clear: the word Mecca is apparently offensive to Muslims, due to a brand of whiskey of that name, and the official name of that city is Makkah. But, you see, we haven't moved the article. Similarly, the Aryan Invasion Theory is no longer accepted by the majority of historians, and indeed, in its original form is considered racist (some "theory", that). However, the Aryan question and its related hypotheses are collectively discussed under the moniker which is most commonly attached to the issue.
Arvindn 15:56, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The lawful authority in northern India at the time was the Mughal empire (at least, as many of the 'mutineers' saw it). The Company was another tributary power of the Mughal's, and one that was usurping their lawful authority. From this premise, the events of 1857, and the final passing of power from the Company to the British Crown, can be considered to be the final war of Indian subjugation, rather than the first war of Independence. The later Independence movements started decades after this, from different political roots, and there was little or no continuity between them and the 1857 event.
Imc 22:38, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The rifle cartridges in question could not possibly be for the Lee-Enfield, which wasn't going to be invented for about 50 years. The weapon in question is almost certainly the .557 calibre P/53 Enfield, to which I will change the article. Maury 00:16, 28 Jan 2004 (UTC)
No one has wrapped this up. Let us please make a vote. I'm assuming this 'edit' will attract involved persons via the watchlist function and so we'll be able to vote. We can decide the time limit of the vote when more people come and discuss it (I won't be so brash as to decide when it ends, but I do wish for it to begin, because this issue is lagging).
The name options are War of Independence of 1857 and "Sepoy/Indian Mutiny" (I group the latter two as they're part of the same naming viewpoint).
FOR War of Independence of 1857 & AGAINST "Sepoy/Indian Mutiny"
FOR "Sepoy/Indian Mutiny" & AGAINST War of Independence of 1857
In spite of spare involvement by sectors in these areas, I still find that the world war appellation is technically invalid. Obviously, I can appreciate that in the context of world history it's the closest we've ever had, but my point is that nitpicking about the nature of the name and its lack of geographical distinction does not seem sound, and that War of Independence of 1857 is specific enough being that there weren't any other major wars of independence specifically in 1857. And yes, as I've said above, there are many places which still use the Indian Mutiny name out of habit, including many Indian quarters. I never argued that no Indian uses the name. However, I did say that "war of Independence" is gaining popularity because many people have realized the implications of 'mutiny.' You merely presented me with instances of Indians who use it. Sure. There are Hindus in India who refer to religious icons as 'idols' merely because they grew up with the term, not because they believe that they're worshipping the stone when in fact Hindus venerate its symbolism. You would not argue that there are many Indians, starting from Subhas Chandra Bose, who pointed out the word "mutiny"'s inadequacy as a marker for the rebellion and that since there is increasing discontent with its use. It makes little sense in the historical sense for reasons stated above. "principle of least surprise" in my opinion is superceded by factual inaccuracy and political incorrectness. There are about 1.5 million (or so) more google hits for 'piss' than there are for 'urine', and yet we've named the urine article urine, and not piss. We can effectively redirect 'Indian Mutiny' to 'War of Independence of 1857.' -- LordSuryaofShropshire 22:14, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
I think the urine/piss thing is absolutely relevant. Just because it uses a subject which you find distasteful doesn't change the fact of this article's offensiveness and rabid P-O-V title, as urine/piss demonstrate. The spread of usage I believe still comes second to inaccuracy and offensiveness. You may quote Indians on having used the term but it's a weak statistic since Indians unknowingly use many names and terms in self-reference in English because they've inherited them from an English colonial past. As it is, in any OBJECTIVE academic context it is plain to see how the name is faulty, regardless of the background of the speaker. Secondly, your placement-argument for "War of Independence of 1857" is biased to the nth degree. Just because a name doesn't immediately geographically localize the subject doesn't render it incorrect or inadequate. As it is, it as the only "War of Independence of 1857" that we know of, and thus is quite specific. If you want we can call it the Indian "War of Independence of 1857" for the article title. -- LordSuryaofShropshire 01:47, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)
The article Indian independence movement also has a large section that was copied from these two articles. Maybe make this section into a stub and link to War of Independence of 1857 or Indian Mutiny? -- Chris 73 | Talk 05:15, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I hope this helps:
Sarvarkar was most likely the first person to term the, er, events of 1857 a war of independence. The "first" appellation also comes from him. Obviously, Sarvarkar's opinion might be worth a mention given the continuing importance of the RSS in Indian politics.
To my knowledge, professional historians (Indian or otherwise) tend not to use the term "Independence" for 1857, let alone "first", because (as was mentioned somewhere above) there seems to be general agreement that there is no continuity between 1857 and the post-1885 (when the Indian National Congress was founded) era leading to Independence in 1947. "Mutiny" and "Sepoy" is, however, avoided, not for their (possible) pejorative connotations, but because the evidence seems to indicate a much wider participation against the British than just from mutinous sepoys.
This leaves 1857 and "revolt"/"rebellion". To pick two examples from heavyweight (but older) historians, C.A. Bayly, in Rulers, Townsmen, and Bazaars (Cambridge University Press, 1983) uses "1857 rebellion"; and Bipan Chandra et al, in India's struggle for Independence (Penguin, 1989) uses "1857 revolt".
I suggest something like Indian revolt of 1857 as a compromise between Mutiny and Independence, but with plenty of NPOV on this topic explicitly in the article as this discussion, with suitable style changes, is relevant in an encyclopedia.
Just my two paise from a Wikipedia newbie. siva99 08:31, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Vote on the Name Change of the merged
Indian Mutiny and
War of Independence of 1857.
Cut and paste to enter your vote for support:
# ~~~~
I'm too late to vote but it's turned out well. I'll just remind Mintguy that force of habit with a name and resultant piles of literature using the name doesn't change the fact that it's an insulting and factually inaccurate misnomer that's been undergoing a lot of scrutiny by many scholars in spite of the willingness of the majority to just 'stick with what's familiar'. -- LordSuryaofShropshire 21:59, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
Books by Indian and Pakistani Authors -
I would like to re-iterate that whatever the combined article is called, we must, must have a note or section in it discussing exactly the point that the British colonial authorities, histories of different ilks (is that plural a real word), and today's South Asians all have different ways of characterizing those events. How the discussion of those events has shaped history and how it continues to shape the consciousness of all these parties is an extremely important part of the historical narrative surrounding the whole issue. I hate to re-state the obvious, but this is, after all, an encyclopedia.-- iFaqeer 22:07, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
Having looked through the article, there are some likely errors. I'm posting those I've noticed here first, in case of comments. Some of these may be partially corrected in the other article, but not sufficiently to leap out at me.
Current Indian mutiny article.
No, surely it is quite clear that the rebellion was not united. For instance, the Sikhs, Nepalis, and most people who did not want the restoration of the Mughals did not join in.
AFAIK, the rebellion did not involve Bengal at all. It involved Bengal Presidency lands which is a different thing.
Was not at least one of these killed a grandson rather than a son? Also was it established that Hodson did this under his own authority? Imc 15:42, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have taken it upon myself, as someone interested in history but with no great knowledge of these events, to perform the merge. I have tried to make sure that nothing is lost or changed dramatically, paragraphs have been moved around, spellings made consistant and a few lines altered for readablity. MeltBanana 17:30, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'm loathe to bring this up again, but seeing as the name of the article was decided by such a tiny number of people I feel somewhat emboldened to do so. I have two problems I'd like to raise regarding "Indian rebellion of 1857". The first is the use of the lower case "r" in "rebellion" - if this event is (beyond just Wikipedia) sometimes known as "Indian rebellion of 1857", then surely the "r" should be upper case? And this is where my second problem arises: isn't this name just a little too underused outside of Wikipedia to be truly useful? Searching the Internet I find almost all references to "Indian rebellion of 1857" derive from the Wikipedia article, and there are very few references to "Indian Rebellion of 1857". Meanwhile, the Library of Congress and many other sources give as an authoritative name for the event: "Sepoy Rebellion", which is both commonly used and NPOV. I find it odd that the above dicussion of the article name so rapidly became polarised to the limited choice of "War of Independence of 1857" (and variations) vs. "Sepoy/Indian Mutiny" (and variations); i.e. War of Independence vs. Mutiny. Although an anonymous editor provided a comprehensive list of choices (under Pick a name, any name), including "Sepoy Rebellion", the latter wasn't included in the final vote, itself limited to only 5 choices. So, with misgivings I'd like to suggest that the article be yet again renamed - this time to "Sepoy Rebellion", a name that is common (only a little less common than Indian Mutiny), NPOV, backed up by authoritative sources/references, and genuinely helpful in accurately suggesting the event in question (unlike "Indian rebellion of 1857", which in spite of the date seems too vague - it could just as easily be seen to refer to one of the US-Indian wars on the American Plains...). Any thoughts? Pinkville 15:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it odd that anyone would want a war, the cause of which was based on stark ignorance ("breaking caste"), so badly fought (battles regularly lost by the "revolutionaries" despite 20:1 odds in the Indian favor), the horrific massacres initiated by the "revolutionaries" and total lack of leadership. In contrast to later Indian independence movements, this whole bloody rebellion should be looked on with more shame and embarrasment than anything else. Its like the US taking pride of Mai Laior bagram. Naerhu 09:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)