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The editors here might be interested in reading the opinion of Vir Sanghvi, one of the most respected names in Indian media, about Careers 360 and IIPM. http://www.virsanghvi.com/CounterPoint-ArticleDetail.aspx?ID=340 Makrandjoshi ( talk) 11:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
There's been some back and forth lately about whether this article should be tagged for neutrality or not, so I'm starting a discussion. Obviously there's a lot of history of controversy here, but it looks like the discussions died down a few months ago. Is the tag for new neutrality issues, or is it for unresolved history? What are the problems that still need to be addressed? WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 11:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I notice that some editors have in the past merged various sections like Gota, Placements, into the section on ACADEMICS. Clearly, that has made the space and balance of the article look imbalances. If you go into the history of the changes, you'll realise that almost all these merging changes have been made more or less (not all, but more or less) from only a single account. I would wish that we divide the section back into three parts and add more information with respect to placements and Gota, which have been reduced into lines that give conjectures of a single editor not based on facts or even the references given since almost a year. For example, I show here a line written by the single purpose account in question.
Students who complete the IIPM certificate courses become eligible to apply for MBA/BBA degrees from IMI Belgium, which describes itself as an independent, privately held organization.[14][15]. According to NVAO, the accreditation agency for Netherlands and Belgium, IMI is not recognized as a higher education institution in Belgium, and the degrees it awards are not recognized as being credible.[16]
According to IIPM, only 70 percent of its students opt for the placement process, and it claims that almost all of these 70 percent students get jobs through it.[14] However, many IIPM students are hired by Planman, which is IIPM's own sister organization[19]. As per the website, more than 600 companies have visited IIPM campuses across the country, and some students have gotten foreign offers too. However, several companies such as Standard Chartered, Barclays and Deutsche Bank, which are mentioned in IIPM advertisements, told the magazine Careers360 that they have never participated in IIPM's campus recruitment process. [16]
It has also been reported that IIPM now has seven international placement offices.[17][20][21] However, according to an investigation by Careers360, jobs that IIPM students get abroad in places like the gulf countries come with severe restrictions and moderate pay.[16]
Cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 04:40, 14 November 2009 (UTC) Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 05:01, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
On another front, when you on one hand encourage me to add sources giving a balancing point of view, you also on the other forbid me from making changes (referring to your second from last response). It confuses me. Perhaps you wish me to add the sources and make the changes after one week of discussions are through; and which is the reason that I am desisting from the effort. Having said that, I can assure you I've lined up various sources that clearly seem more pertinent to add a balanced point of view and to ensure that the tag at the top is removed. So my request Weisheitsuchen is that we'll wait for other editors to comment on the Academics section and the Introduction section, make relevant changes, and then move ahead to the next section. It's in fact the same point which you had made in your arguments. Looking forward to getting constructive comments. Lol... Cheers, Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:43, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi WeisheitSuchen, I find it disappointing that you mention that continuing discussions on this talk page would be equivalent to working against consensus. That is clearly not the spirit of Wikipedia. Do not tell an editor to stop discussions. Only discussions will remove the neutrality tag and the clear slant that the current article has. If you're telling me to stop discussions out here (saying that it'll go against consensus), I have to say you are wrong. But do correct me if you meant something else. I'm sure you perhaps did not mean your words the way you wrote them. Next is the point about consensus with respect to Career 360. I do think that the reliability notice board and discussions have moved around whether the source of Career 360 is reliable or not. And the consensus has been that it seems to be reliable to be included in the article. You have to note that once a source is considered reliable, then its comments from one report can be used in an article with only the relevant weight. In other words, and I repeat Wikipedia policy, giving the weight that the article garners in the overall media.For example, you possible cannot use one news report from a source that is relevant throughout the article from the top till the bottom without the danger of the article being labelled -- and not just for this reason -- a non npov article. And this article has been labelled non npov. If the points Career 360 mentions are so well reported in the overall media, then you and I should be able to find out at least three recent reliable sources that mention the same points? I was able to find none!!! Career 360 talks about, for example, how the international US college associations of IIPM are wrongly advertised. Like I mentioned, I have found no reliable secondary source backing up this information. I am sure there would be. I'll keep trying to find out. However, it would be encouraging if you and other editors could chip in to find out sources to support what Career 360 is saying. Because adding those would ensure that the minority assumption of what the source is claiming in a significantly large and unbalanced portion of the article would be evened out by other sources claiming the same. The more reliable source we get backing such claims of Career 360, the better would be our effort to make it balanced. You have to realise WeisheitSuchen, the effort is not to remove the Career 360 source right now (you wrongly assume that; and it'll be good if you correct this wrong assumption of yours), the effort is to ensure that Career 360 is mentioned in the IIPM article with the same weight as its reported claims garner in overall worldwide media. Do you find that against Wikipedia editing policy? Do tell me if you do, because my statements are based on Wiki npov guidelines. There's a nice rule in that says try to edit stepping into the enemy's shoes (it's a metaphor). I'm trying to do that. I request you to do that too. Otherwise we will not be able to remove the neutrality tag. And we've not even moved to the first two sections of the article on which I've worked and asked comments from editors. Do please go through other sections of the article and even the initial sections and suggest changes. It'll be a good combined effort in giving a neutrality touch to the overall article. I'll keep chipping in more or less adding sources from time to time. But you have to also do the same effort with respect to the whole currently non-npov article. Lastly, I am very disappointed that after your previous comment where you accused me of trying to whitewash (?!?!) the article, you have continued to accuse me of forum shopping (for months??!!?). If you wish to accuse me again, do it on a formal forum. Do not continue discussions in bad faith. Your statements would constitute bad faith statements more or less. I request you, politely, to stop using such words for an editor who's made efforts to gon through the various paragraphs attempting to address neutrality issues. You haven't! At this juncture, it would be encouraging if you go clearly through what I have written in my previous reply. It is not just my effort to add sources that will remove the neutrality tag. And please WeisheitSuchen, do not please use words that would make the enviornment of discussions deliberately bad. And please do not tell an editor to stop discussions. It's a polite request... Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi WeisheithSuchen, it'll be nice if you can help me clean up as I'm not clear with the technical details of how can one re-refer to a previously mentioned reference. As far as your copyright violations statement goes, if you delete with checking whether any site has claimed copyright, you'll be vandalising the page. Try not to do that. You'll see from my responses to your copyright statements below to understand why you're apprehensions are misplaced. I'd like to mention that if you can site a Wikipedia policy that says that we should have a limited number of references, site me one. Try not to remove validly cited material as that would amount to vandalism. Cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:19, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
I have reopened a validity question on a reference being used. Please link up to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reopening_the_question_of_source_Career360_on_the_page_on_IIPM to see the points of view. It'll be good if current editors do not comment there as they might have conflicts of interest. Let's have independent viewpoints. Cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 05:03, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I have no major problems with recent edits by wifione. I have made a few changes - 1) There is now a deluge of references for some points. I have cut them down. 2) Too much information about bodies like AICTE, UGC, IMI etc. Let us keep the content here relevant to their connection with IIPM Makrandjoshi ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC).
One thing I've noticed any time a large amount of text is added to an article is that it often signals a copyright violation. Many people aren't actually that fast at writing, so to produce that much text, they copy and paste sentences or even paragraphs from another source. Remember that simply citing a source as a reference doesn't make it OK to copy and paste whole sentences.
Here's what I found checking the recent additions to this article:
Here: It is also a UNDP key partner institution and has been on the World Bank Institute's steering committee for corporate social responsibility initiatives.
Original: IIPM has also been awarded the status of being the UNDP key partner institution in India and is also a member of the World Bank steering committee for corporate social responsibility in India.
Comment: This had about a dozen references with it originally, and clearly some token rewording was done in the beginning of the sentence. However, it's still clearly taken either from this source or one of the other places that has the same sentence (
like this one).
Here: The first residential full-time post graduate diploma program commenced on 12th August, 1974, with students selected through admission tests-cum-inter views held in Delhi, Kolkata, Bombay and Bangalore.
Original: The first residential full-time post graduate diploma programme commenced on 12th August, 1974, with students selected through admission tests-cum-inter views held in Delhi, Kolkata, Bombay and Bangalore.
Comment: The misplaced space in the middle of the word "interviews" is a sure sign that this was copied.
Multiple sentences were also taken from the NVAO article without attribution, violating the guidelines for copying within Wikipedia.
I suspect there may be more content taken from other sources, but I haven't had time to go through the whole article yet. If anyone else has time to do some additional checking, it would be greatly appreciated. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 22:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
(deindent)Although you claim that the source "has no authority claiming copyright," under US copyright law (which governs Wikipedia), everything online is considered to be copyrighted by default, even if the source doesn't explicitly claim copyright. Brief quotations can be used in accordance with the non-free content policy. Basically, it boils down to this: if you copy and paste, it needs to be in quotation marks. Don't pretend that you completely rewrote it when a dozen words are all in the same order. If you don't want to use quotation marks, then it has to be completely paraphrased to the standard of avoiding plagiarism.
Wifione, I'm so glad that you are such a fast typist. That means that from now on you'll have plenty of time to paraphrase everything you contribute from the sources sufficiently, rather than asking me to clean up after you. When you add huge amounts of content like you did, I don't have the time to go through and paraphrase it all myself. I'm sure you can take the "no more than a minute" in the future to do it right the first time. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 12:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Here is an additional sentence which needs to be further paraphrased. I'll leave it in the article for now since I know you're so fast at fixing these issues.
Here: IIPM also teaches courses like "Beyond the principles of management and economics" in which graduate and post-graduate students are taught concepts like survival of the weakest, the law of increasing marginal utility, apart from the age old concepts of survival of the fittest in the market economy and law of diminishing marginal utility.
Original: Research has helped IIPM develop its own subjects like “Beyond the principles of management and economics” wherein students are taught concepts like survival of the weakest, the law of increasing marginal utility, apart from the age old concepts of survival of the fittest in the market economy and law of diminishing marginal utility.
Comment: More than half of the sentence is taken verbatim from the original text; this isn't sufficient paraphrasing.
Thanks in advance for redoing this section Wifione. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 07:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
In some cases, it doesn't seem like the statements in the articles actually match what's in the sources. It's not enough to provide a reliable source for each claim; the source must actually say what is being said in the article. I won't pretend I've caught everything here, since there are so many sources, but this is a start at documenting the problems.
Previous statement: "IMI alumnus have gone on to work on professorial careers in European universities."
What the source says: The bio of one woman with an MBA from IMI is included. Showing that one person has does so doesn't prove that multiple alumni have these careers.
Solution: I changed it to say "At least one IMI alumni has gone on to a professorial career in a European university." Even this is questionable; this isn't about IIPM and may not belong in the article at all.
Although it's removed now, this is also part of why I deleted the entire History section. (The other reason was the copyright violation noted earlier.)
Previous statement: In the late 1990s, the institute expanded to Mumbai. In the 2000s, it expanded further. Currently, the institute is reported to have 18 branches across India, including in Gurgaon, Noida, Bangalore, Chennai, Ahmedabad, Kolkata, Chandigarh, Hyderabad, Pune, Lucknow, Indore, Bhubaneshwar, Bhopal, Jaipur, Dehradun, and Cochin.
What the sources say: Three sources were provided (
1,
2,
[1]) I don't have any issues with the reliability of any of them, although of course the second one should be something other than a Google doc. If the goal is simply to show an archive of the IIPM home page, the archive.org version of the site would be better. Unfortunately, they don't actually talk about the expansions to different branches; there's a complete disconnect between the statement in the article and what's in the sources.
Maybe I'm just missing it in the history sources. Wifione, if these articles from the Telegraph and Mail Today do talk about when the branches were added and I'm just not seeing it, could you please provide the quotes here to point it out to me? WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 07:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
In the lead, several statements about accreditation were marked as "failed verification." AICTE's site is currently down, so I can't verify those, but the source for UGC says this: "UGC says no institute in the country can offer a degree course without its approval and IIPM does not have its go ahead...This institution has not approached the UGC, it is not a university." Several other quotes say about the same thing. Wifione, can you clarify why you marked this as failing verification? It seems pretty clearly to support the statement that IIPM isn't accredited with UGC. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 14:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi WeisheitSuchen, the new section on relationship with educations institutions is a good one. There are a few suggestions. First, can we shift the IMI accreditation issues directly into the accreditation paragraph instead of repeating it? Second, can we shift the IIPM accreditation details also into the Accreditation section? Third, can we just mention the Univ of Buckingham accreditaiton detail with the AICTE part? It adds a pov balance I think. I've provided an alternative edit for your reference and help. If you think it look good, great. If you think it needs repair or back revert, do go ahead and do it (or inform me and i'll do it). cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:12, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
With NUS joint certification, I have put the above schools in lead. I don't think we should put them into the section on certification as such because the section on certification is purely about IIPM and IMI, which are the primary and secondary subjects I guess. Any change or complete revertal or deletion you might want with anything I've done in the lead and in the contents (including the renaming of Chaudhuri as planning commission member) is perfectly ok with me. Thanks Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 04:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I have edited the "relationships with other institutions" section to reflect what sources say. As it stood, it had been embellished with several weasel words. The source only says Judge, Darden etc will "host IIPM executive education participants". Which is not at all the same as providing join certification or join programs or courses, which is what the paragraph implied. wifione, in the future, please stick to accurately writing what the sources say and do not pad or embellish stuff just to make IIPM seem more important. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 23:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi Wei, I've placed many tags in the Controversy section. I have not changed any line leave I guess one and have only placed tags. I'm worried whether the issue is with my ISP or whether there really are so many tags that are not opening. Please do check as I double checked even the UGC tag and it did not still open. A quick note on some tags: there are a few tags where the article says one thing and what is written says something else, especially in Career 360 and the part about tax evasion. There's a Hindu newspaper article that talks about some institute of personnel/or plantation management. There're links that seem wrongly pointed (for example, I couldn't find a link about some guy called Premchand or somebody syaing that investigations have been started). Still, I've not removed the line; just placed the tags. There's a Livemint article op-ed view piece placed as a source. So tagged that too. There're a few links that are clearly dead. But like I said, I'm worried and hope it's not my isp functioning crazy. Do please check them if you have time. Thanks and cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 05:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
There are several issues in the first paragraph with references that also need to be resolved.
I think that if the UNDP and World Bank notes are retained in the article that they should be moved from the lead. The lead really should be a summary of what's in the article, and these are just a one-sentence note never revisited later in the article. Perhaps the UNDP info could go in the section on partnerships with other organizations. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 14:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 06:36, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
I am making changes of the following nature.
Since the IIPM does not award BBA or MBA itself, but says that students become eligible for applying for those degrees from IMI Belgium, it is necessary to point out that IMI is also an unaccredited school. The Businessweek listing specifies this. I have included this information in pertinent places, and provided the Businessweek link as the cite.
In many places, specific examples have been worded as generalities, when it comes to IIPM's achievements. I changed one such instance. One alumnus of IIPM was recognized by world bank as an entrepreneur. wifione wrote it as "in the past world bank has recognized iipm alumni as", wording that suggests that it occurs on a regular basis. I have changed the wording to make it reflective to the specifics. Am changing some other such instances.
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 18:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Wifione slipped in this information - In 2009, the Union Minister of Education Kapil Sibal informed the editor of The Sunday Indian, a news magazine published by the institute, that he is "seriously considering" abolishing AICTE and UGC.
Now, The Sunday Indian is run by IIPM itself, so is primary source and does not qualify as WP:RS. The other cites provided that do qualify as WP:RS, the Times of India articles, do not quote Sibal saying any such thing - read
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Education-panel-wants-UGC-AICTE-scrapped/articleshow/4689229.cms and
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-5198163,prtpage-1.cms The first article talks about a panel recommending not just "abolishing" AICTE and UGC, but replacing them with one single regulatary authority. Totally different from just scrapping the bodies. The way you have twisted words from RS and mixed it with primary source stuff from 'The Sunday Indian' is admirable!
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 05:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Here is my suggestions for what to include. There are more details available on other RS sources so I don't see the need to cite Sunday Indian. Here is my suggestion.
An education panel has recommended replacing AICTE, UGC, and other regulatory groups with a single regulator (TOI ref here) Kapil Sibal, the Indian Minister in charge of higher education, has put in motion plans to create a National Council for Higher Education (NCHE), which will take over the academic, accreditation and financial functions of the existing regulators. The same panel suggested to the ministry taking action against private institutions which act free of government control in admissions, fees and coursework. (source - Wall Street Journal's The Mint -
http://www.livemint.com/2009/06/07213030/Government-plans-to-scrap-UGC.html )
what do you think?
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 21:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
This article is cluttered with primary source links as cites, such as from IIPM's own websites or press releases. Or then from other websites that are neither scholarship-based nor media orgs. Refer - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Types_of_sources For example, a pdf from the NTU Singapore website is no more WP:RS than something from IIPM's own website. I am cleaning up such cites and the information put in using such sources, because it is NOT validly cited. wifione, please go over WP:RS guidelines and insert sources accordingly only. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 05:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry to say Makrand but educational institutional references are considered the most reliable. You have been invited to engage in proactive constructive discussions by both me and WeiSuchen since long. I'm surprised at your unilateral decisions to remove validly cited informations like this. You are indulging in disruptive, tendentious editing. I am sorry to inform you that I have had to report you on the Administrative noticeboard. This is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Makrandjoshi_reported_by_User:Wifione_.28Result:_.29 Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 05:55, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
I actually have a dispute there. Sorry if this seems pedantic, but I find it hard to believe the institute started as early as in 1973. Until the late 90s, no one in India had heard of IIPM. The year 1973 is pretty early for a private business school to start by Indian standards. So I am suspicious it might be an attempt to boost legitimacy by claiming to be way older than they are. In the past, pro-IIPM editors, citing primary source, have expanded the history section and even claimed it was Nehru who asked Chaudhury to start the institute. LOL! Nehru, who FYI, died in 1964. That said, if a WP:RS source says the school was founded in 1973, I have no objections. For now I am ok with letting the History section remain. But the primary sources need to be replaced with 3rd party ones. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 21:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Over the next couple of days, I will be going through the article and editing information that is simply wrong, mentions things not mentioned in the sources, or are purely made up. I will list the changes here as I make them and give reasons.
1. In accredition there is a line - However, NVAO, as per the email, accredits Dutch and French courses. IMI degrees are offered in English. The email in the source, Careers 360 article, says no such thing. It does not talk about what language courses it accredits, but the geogrphic areas - Dutch and French speaking parts of Belgium. IMI's courses being in English is neither here nor there. This is a weasel line put in by wifione to discredit NVAO.
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 23:09, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
2. The only cited fact when it comes to global orgs like UN, World Bank etc is that one year, IIPM co-organized an AIDS seminar with UNDP. Other stuff mentioned in the article is uncited, probably untrue and seems to be put there just to make the institute look - a member of the World Bank Institute's steering committee on corporate social responsibility initiatives. The institute also partners the United Nations in bringing out macro economic reviews and partners the United Nations Environment Programme to the extent of organising workshops on World Environment Day under the aegis of the UN Have removed everything except the UNDP AIDS part.
3. Whoever added a lot of info (probably wifione) is obsessed with phrases like "partnering with" "joint certification", "key partner institution", phrases which are trying to convert 1-time events into some kind of a grand "partnership" or "alliance". When you look at the cited source, it becomes clear that said events usually happened only once, opften very long ago (like the UNDP-AIDS thing, 2003!). I am editing a lot of these grandiose "partner" lines to make them reflect the reality, and not serve as advertorials for IIPM.
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 15:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
4. Copy-pasting a few words from a source with quotation marks is fine, but in a lot of places, lines after lines (usually saying good things about IIPM) have been copied and pasted with quotation marks. I am rewording those parts to summarize them.
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 16:00, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Dear WeisheitSuchen, Makrand, I do need a view on whether Knowledge@Wharton source and the NTU sources qualify as reliable or not? As per me, Knowledge@Wharton is well quoted and seems respectable while NTU is not talking about anything controversial. Self published sources should not form a majority of the article surely, but can be used with considerate effect. Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 06:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Special care is required for citing self-published sources, such as information about a college/university published by the college/university itself: the cited information must be authentic, not be self-serving (see Neutral point of view), and not involve claims about third parties. Self-published sources cannot comprise the majority of an article's citations. Student-published college newspapers and university-published press releases are generally reliable sources for verifying information, however, these sources cannot be used to establish encyclopedic notability. Coverage by mainstream news organizations should always be preferred over press releases by a college or university's news office and stories in the student newspaper.
Dear Editors/ Administrators,
The controversy lines and its section doesn't seems to have a balance , neutrality required for the same.-- Suraj845 ( talk) 08:13, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
The information about an IIPM alumnus being profiles by World Bank seems out of place in the job placement section. I am moving it to a new Alumni section. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 16:13, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
I am removing the neutrality review tag. It has been on for a while, but no one has come and expressed clearly what the neutrality issues specifically are. All I see is repeated vague statements "this is not neutral" or some such. In my edits over the last few days, I have removed lines which I think violate WP:NPOV and now the article seems balanced. So I am removing the neutrality review tag. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 11:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Adding your own viewpoints and feeling it be neutralised without proper discussions. I feel let the administrators deal whether its totally neutral or not and not an editor. Pls don't remove the neutrality tag till the discussions are over.-- Suraj845 ( talk) 13:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Discussing facts should be done with one which has a fair opinion and not indulged in opposing the facts without any logical opinion. I feel we should ask administrator to provide us with a fair editor as since the past edits of yours ( ever since you have been started editing) its always had a face in your edits, that you are some what a player of some competitor party and not a fair editor. I request the administrators to first judge your edits from the past history and to see whether your are eligible in giving fair neutral facts to any article in wiki or not. -- Suraj845 ( talk) 17:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
General statements that "it's not neutral" are not productive. Point to specific wording and offer suggestions or it can and should be ignored. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 10:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Lots Many times unaccredited is being used which leads to the same link. I feel we should cut down and not repeat the same again and again.-- Suraj845 ( talk) 04:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I do not agree completely to the fact if we have a whole section regarding the Accreditation, then there is no point i feel it to be incorporated again n again even on the starting line of the article. -- Suraj845 ( talk) 08:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Unaccredited is the correct accurate term and should stay. -- NeilN talk to me 15:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, somebody just shortened the lead to 1 sentence. That's unacceptable. The lead should provide an overview of the article, and now it doesn't. Hasn't anyone actuall read WP:LEAD? ~ Amatulić ( talk) 17:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I refer to a para that goes like this "Businessweek lists IMI Belgium as an unaccredited business school[13]. Career 360, an Indian career oriented magazine, reported sources in NVAO....BusinessWeek lists IMI in the section on "Full Time MBA Profiles" as an unaccredited institution.[35][36][37][38]" Should a whole paragraph about details of IMI stay in the IIPM article? Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The editors here might be interested in reading the opinion of Vir Sanghvi, one of the most respected names in Indian media, about Careers 360 and IIPM. http://www.virsanghvi.com/CounterPoint-ArticleDetail.aspx?ID=340 Makrandjoshi ( talk) 11:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
There's been some back and forth lately about whether this article should be tagged for neutrality or not, so I'm starting a discussion. Obviously there's a lot of history of controversy here, but it looks like the discussions died down a few months ago. Is the tag for new neutrality issues, or is it for unresolved history? What are the problems that still need to be addressed? WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 11:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I notice that some editors have in the past merged various sections like Gota, Placements, into the section on ACADEMICS. Clearly, that has made the space and balance of the article look imbalances. If you go into the history of the changes, you'll realise that almost all these merging changes have been made more or less (not all, but more or less) from only a single account. I would wish that we divide the section back into three parts and add more information with respect to placements and Gota, which have been reduced into lines that give conjectures of a single editor not based on facts or even the references given since almost a year. For example, I show here a line written by the single purpose account in question.
Students who complete the IIPM certificate courses become eligible to apply for MBA/BBA degrees from IMI Belgium, which describes itself as an independent, privately held organization.[14][15]. According to NVAO, the accreditation agency for Netherlands and Belgium, IMI is not recognized as a higher education institution in Belgium, and the degrees it awards are not recognized as being credible.[16]
According to IIPM, only 70 percent of its students opt for the placement process, and it claims that almost all of these 70 percent students get jobs through it.[14] However, many IIPM students are hired by Planman, which is IIPM's own sister organization[19]. As per the website, more than 600 companies have visited IIPM campuses across the country, and some students have gotten foreign offers too. However, several companies such as Standard Chartered, Barclays and Deutsche Bank, which are mentioned in IIPM advertisements, told the magazine Careers360 that they have never participated in IIPM's campus recruitment process. [16]
It has also been reported that IIPM now has seven international placement offices.[17][20][21] However, according to an investigation by Careers360, jobs that IIPM students get abroad in places like the gulf countries come with severe restrictions and moderate pay.[16]
Cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 04:40, 14 November 2009 (UTC) Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 05:01, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
On another front, when you on one hand encourage me to add sources giving a balancing point of view, you also on the other forbid me from making changes (referring to your second from last response). It confuses me. Perhaps you wish me to add the sources and make the changes after one week of discussions are through; and which is the reason that I am desisting from the effort. Having said that, I can assure you I've lined up various sources that clearly seem more pertinent to add a balanced point of view and to ensure that the tag at the top is removed. So my request Weisheitsuchen is that we'll wait for other editors to comment on the Academics section and the Introduction section, make relevant changes, and then move ahead to the next section. It's in fact the same point which you had made in your arguments. Looking forward to getting constructive comments. Lol... Cheers, Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:43, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi WeisheitSuchen, I find it disappointing that you mention that continuing discussions on this talk page would be equivalent to working against consensus. That is clearly not the spirit of Wikipedia. Do not tell an editor to stop discussions. Only discussions will remove the neutrality tag and the clear slant that the current article has. If you're telling me to stop discussions out here (saying that it'll go against consensus), I have to say you are wrong. But do correct me if you meant something else. I'm sure you perhaps did not mean your words the way you wrote them. Next is the point about consensus with respect to Career 360. I do think that the reliability notice board and discussions have moved around whether the source of Career 360 is reliable or not. And the consensus has been that it seems to be reliable to be included in the article. You have to note that once a source is considered reliable, then its comments from one report can be used in an article with only the relevant weight. In other words, and I repeat Wikipedia policy, giving the weight that the article garners in the overall media.For example, you possible cannot use one news report from a source that is relevant throughout the article from the top till the bottom without the danger of the article being labelled -- and not just for this reason -- a non npov article. And this article has been labelled non npov. If the points Career 360 mentions are so well reported in the overall media, then you and I should be able to find out at least three recent reliable sources that mention the same points? I was able to find none!!! Career 360 talks about, for example, how the international US college associations of IIPM are wrongly advertised. Like I mentioned, I have found no reliable secondary source backing up this information. I am sure there would be. I'll keep trying to find out. However, it would be encouraging if you and other editors could chip in to find out sources to support what Career 360 is saying. Because adding those would ensure that the minority assumption of what the source is claiming in a significantly large and unbalanced portion of the article would be evened out by other sources claiming the same. The more reliable source we get backing such claims of Career 360, the better would be our effort to make it balanced. You have to realise WeisheitSuchen, the effort is not to remove the Career 360 source right now (you wrongly assume that; and it'll be good if you correct this wrong assumption of yours), the effort is to ensure that Career 360 is mentioned in the IIPM article with the same weight as its reported claims garner in overall worldwide media. Do you find that against Wikipedia editing policy? Do tell me if you do, because my statements are based on Wiki npov guidelines. There's a nice rule in that says try to edit stepping into the enemy's shoes (it's a metaphor). I'm trying to do that. I request you to do that too. Otherwise we will not be able to remove the neutrality tag. And we've not even moved to the first two sections of the article on which I've worked and asked comments from editors. Do please go through other sections of the article and even the initial sections and suggest changes. It'll be a good combined effort in giving a neutrality touch to the overall article. I'll keep chipping in more or less adding sources from time to time. But you have to also do the same effort with respect to the whole currently non-npov article. Lastly, I am very disappointed that after your previous comment where you accused me of trying to whitewash (?!?!) the article, you have continued to accuse me of forum shopping (for months??!!?). If you wish to accuse me again, do it on a formal forum. Do not continue discussions in bad faith. Your statements would constitute bad faith statements more or less. I request you, politely, to stop using such words for an editor who's made efforts to gon through the various paragraphs attempting to address neutrality issues. You haven't! At this juncture, it would be encouraging if you go clearly through what I have written in my previous reply. It is not just my effort to add sources that will remove the neutrality tag. And please WeisheitSuchen, do not please use words that would make the enviornment of discussions deliberately bad. And please do not tell an editor to stop discussions. It's a polite request... Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi WeisheithSuchen, it'll be nice if you can help me clean up as I'm not clear with the technical details of how can one re-refer to a previously mentioned reference. As far as your copyright violations statement goes, if you delete with checking whether any site has claimed copyright, you'll be vandalising the page. Try not to do that. You'll see from my responses to your copyright statements below to understand why you're apprehensions are misplaced. I'd like to mention that if you can site a Wikipedia policy that says that we should have a limited number of references, site me one. Try not to remove validly cited material as that would amount to vandalism. Cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:19, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
I have reopened a validity question on a reference being used. Please link up to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reopening_the_question_of_source_Career360_on_the_page_on_IIPM to see the points of view. It'll be good if current editors do not comment there as they might have conflicts of interest. Let's have independent viewpoints. Cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 05:03, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
I have no major problems with recent edits by wifione. I have made a few changes - 1) There is now a deluge of references for some points. I have cut them down. 2) Too much information about bodies like AICTE, UGC, IMI etc. Let us keep the content here relevant to their connection with IIPM Makrandjoshi ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC).
One thing I've noticed any time a large amount of text is added to an article is that it often signals a copyright violation. Many people aren't actually that fast at writing, so to produce that much text, they copy and paste sentences or even paragraphs from another source. Remember that simply citing a source as a reference doesn't make it OK to copy and paste whole sentences.
Here's what I found checking the recent additions to this article:
Here: It is also a UNDP key partner institution and has been on the World Bank Institute's steering committee for corporate social responsibility initiatives.
Original: IIPM has also been awarded the status of being the UNDP key partner institution in India and is also a member of the World Bank steering committee for corporate social responsibility in India.
Comment: This had about a dozen references with it originally, and clearly some token rewording was done in the beginning of the sentence. However, it's still clearly taken either from this source or one of the other places that has the same sentence (
like this one).
Here: The first residential full-time post graduate diploma program commenced on 12th August, 1974, with students selected through admission tests-cum-inter views held in Delhi, Kolkata, Bombay and Bangalore.
Original: The first residential full-time post graduate diploma programme commenced on 12th August, 1974, with students selected through admission tests-cum-inter views held in Delhi, Kolkata, Bombay and Bangalore.
Comment: The misplaced space in the middle of the word "interviews" is a sure sign that this was copied.
Multiple sentences were also taken from the NVAO article without attribution, violating the guidelines for copying within Wikipedia.
I suspect there may be more content taken from other sources, but I haven't had time to go through the whole article yet. If anyone else has time to do some additional checking, it would be greatly appreciated. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 22:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
(deindent)Although you claim that the source "has no authority claiming copyright," under US copyright law (which governs Wikipedia), everything online is considered to be copyrighted by default, even if the source doesn't explicitly claim copyright. Brief quotations can be used in accordance with the non-free content policy. Basically, it boils down to this: if you copy and paste, it needs to be in quotation marks. Don't pretend that you completely rewrote it when a dozen words are all in the same order. If you don't want to use quotation marks, then it has to be completely paraphrased to the standard of avoiding plagiarism.
Wifione, I'm so glad that you are such a fast typist. That means that from now on you'll have plenty of time to paraphrase everything you contribute from the sources sufficiently, rather than asking me to clean up after you. When you add huge amounts of content like you did, I don't have the time to go through and paraphrase it all myself. I'm sure you can take the "no more than a minute" in the future to do it right the first time. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 12:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Here is an additional sentence which needs to be further paraphrased. I'll leave it in the article for now since I know you're so fast at fixing these issues.
Here: IIPM also teaches courses like "Beyond the principles of management and economics" in which graduate and post-graduate students are taught concepts like survival of the weakest, the law of increasing marginal utility, apart from the age old concepts of survival of the fittest in the market economy and law of diminishing marginal utility.
Original: Research has helped IIPM develop its own subjects like “Beyond the principles of management and economics” wherein students are taught concepts like survival of the weakest, the law of increasing marginal utility, apart from the age old concepts of survival of the fittest in the market economy and law of diminishing marginal utility.
Comment: More than half of the sentence is taken verbatim from the original text; this isn't sufficient paraphrasing.
Thanks in advance for redoing this section Wifione. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 07:16, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
In some cases, it doesn't seem like the statements in the articles actually match what's in the sources. It's not enough to provide a reliable source for each claim; the source must actually say what is being said in the article. I won't pretend I've caught everything here, since there are so many sources, but this is a start at documenting the problems.
Previous statement: "IMI alumnus have gone on to work on professorial careers in European universities."
What the source says: The bio of one woman with an MBA from IMI is included. Showing that one person has does so doesn't prove that multiple alumni have these careers.
Solution: I changed it to say "At least one IMI alumni has gone on to a professorial career in a European university." Even this is questionable; this isn't about IIPM and may not belong in the article at all.
Although it's removed now, this is also part of why I deleted the entire History section. (The other reason was the copyright violation noted earlier.)
Previous statement: In the late 1990s, the institute expanded to Mumbai. In the 2000s, it expanded further. Currently, the institute is reported to have 18 branches across India, including in Gurgaon, Noida, Bangalore, Chennai, Ahmedabad, Kolkata, Chandigarh, Hyderabad, Pune, Lucknow, Indore, Bhubaneshwar, Bhopal, Jaipur, Dehradun, and Cochin.
What the sources say: Three sources were provided (
1,
2,
[1]) I don't have any issues with the reliability of any of them, although of course the second one should be something other than a Google doc. If the goal is simply to show an archive of the IIPM home page, the archive.org version of the site would be better. Unfortunately, they don't actually talk about the expansions to different branches; there's a complete disconnect between the statement in the article and what's in the sources.
Maybe I'm just missing it in the history sources. Wifione, if these articles from the Telegraph and Mail Today do talk about when the branches were added and I'm just not seeing it, could you please provide the quotes here to point it out to me? WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 07:25, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
In the lead, several statements about accreditation were marked as "failed verification." AICTE's site is currently down, so I can't verify those, but the source for UGC says this: "UGC says no institute in the country can offer a degree course without its approval and IIPM does not have its go ahead...This institution has not approached the UGC, it is not a university." Several other quotes say about the same thing. Wifione, can you clarify why you marked this as failing verification? It seems pretty clearly to support the statement that IIPM isn't accredited with UGC. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 14:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi WeisheitSuchen, the new section on relationship with educations institutions is a good one. There are a few suggestions. First, can we shift the IMI accreditation issues directly into the accreditation paragraph instead of repeating it? Second, can we shift the IIPM accreditation details also into the Accreditation section? Third, can we just mention the Univ of Buckingham accreditaiton detail with the AICTE part? It adds a pov balance I think. I've provided an alternative edit for your reference and help. If you think it look good, great. If you think it needs repair or back revert, do go ahead and do it (or inform me and i'll do it). cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:12, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
With NUS joint certification, I have put the above schools in lead. I don't think we should put them into the section on certification as such because the section on certification is purely about IIPM and IMI, which are the primary and secondary subjects I guess. Any change or complete revertal or deletion you might want with anything I've done in the lead and in the contents (including the renaming of Chaudhuri as planning commission member) is perfectly ok with me. Thanks Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 04:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
I have edited the "relationships with other institutions" section to reflect what sources say. As it stood, it had been embellished with several weasel words. The source only says Judge, Darden etc will "host IIPM executive education participants". Which is not at all the same as providing join certification or join programs or courses, which is what the paragraph implied. wifione, in the future, please stick to accurately writing what the sources say and do not pad or embellish stuff just to make IIPM seem more important. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 23:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi Wei, I've placed many tags in the Controversy section. I have not changed any line leave I guess one and have only placed tags. I'm worried whether the issue is with my ISP or whether there really are so many tags that are not opening. Please do check as I double checked even the UGC tag and it did not still open. A quick note on some tags: there are a few tags where the article says one thing and what is written says something else, especially in Career 360 and the part about tax evasion. There's a Hindu newspaper article that talks about some institute of personnel/or plantation management. There're links that seem wrongly pointed (for example, I couldn't find a link about some guy called Premchand or somebody syaing that investigations have been started). Still, I've not removed the line; just placed the tags. There's a Livemint article op-ed view piece placed as a source. So tagged that too. There're a few links that are clearly dead. But like I said, I'm worried and hope it's not my isp functioning crazy. Do please check them if you have time. Thanks and cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 05:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
There are several issues in the first paragraph with references that also need to be resolved.
I think that if the UNDP and World Bank notes are retained in the article that they should be moved from the lead. The lead really should be a summary of what's in the article, and these are just a one-sentence note never revisited later in the article. Perhaps the UNDP info could go in the section on partnerships with other organizations. WeisheitSuchen ( talk) 14:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Cheers Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 06:36, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
I am making changes of the following nature.
Since the IIPM does not award BBA or MBA itself, but says that students become eligible for applying for those degrees from IMI Belgium, it is necessary to point out that IMI is also an unaccredited school. The Businessweek listing specifies this. I have included this information in pertinent places, and provided the Businessweek link as the cite.
In many places, specific examples have been worded as generalities, when it comes to IIPM's achievements. I changed one such instance. One alumnus of IIPM was recognized by world bank as an entrepreneur. wifione wrote it as "in the past world bank has recognized iipm alumni as", wording that suggests that it occurs on a regular basis. I have changed the wording to make it reflective to the specifics. Am changing some other such instances.
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 18:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Wifione slipped in this information - In 2009, the Union Minister of Education Kapil Sibal informed the editor of The Sunday Indian, a news magazine published by the institute, that he is "seriously considering" abolishing AICTE and UGC.
Now, The Sunday Indian is run by IIPM itself, so is primary source and does not qualify as WP:RS. The other cites provided that do qualify as WP:RS, the Times of India articles, do not quote Sibal saying any such thing - read
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Education-panel-wants-UGC-AICTE-scrapped/articleshow/4689229.cms and
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-5198163,prtpage-1.cms The first article talks about a panel recommending not just "abolishing" AICTE and UGC, but replacing them with one single regulatary authority. Totally different from just scrapping the bodies. The way you have twisted words from RS and mixed it with primary source stuff from 'The Sunday Indian' is admirable!
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 05:19, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Here is my suggestions for what to include. There are more details available on other RS sources so I don't see the need to cite Sunday Indian. Here is my suggestion.
An education panel has recommended replacing AICTE, UGC, and other regulatory groups with a single regulator (TOI ref here) Kapil Sibal, the Indian Minister in charge of higher education, has put in motion plans to create a National Council for Higher Education (NCHE), which will take over the academic, accreditation and financial functions of the existing regulators. The same panel suggested to the ministry taking action against private institutions which act free of government control in admissions, fees and coursework. (source - Wall Street Journal's The Mint -
http://www.livemint.com/2009/06/07213030/Government-plans-to-scrap-UGC.html )
what do you think?
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 21:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
This article is cluttered with primary source links as cites, such as from IIPM's own websites or press releases. Or then from other websites that are neither scholarship-based nor media orgs. Refer - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Types_of_sources For example, a pdf from the NTU Singapore website is no more WP:RS than something from IIPM's own website. I am cleaning up such cites and the information put in using such sources, because it is NOT validly cited. wifione, please go over WP:RS guidelines and insert sources accordingly only. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 05:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
I am sorry to say Makrand but educational institutional references are considered the most reliable. You have been invited to engage in proactive constructive discussions by both me and WeiSuchen since long. I'm surprised at your unilateral decisions to remove validly cited informations like this. You are indulging in disruptive, tendentious editing. I am sorry to inform you that I have had to report you on the Administrative noticeboard. This is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Makrandjoshi_reported_by_User:Wifione_.28Result:_.29 Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 05:55, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
I actually have a dispute there. Sorry if this seems pedantic, but I find it hard to believe the institute started as early as in 1973. Until the late 90s, no one in India had heard of IIPM. The year 1973 is pretty early for a private business school to start by Indian standards. So I am suspicious it might be an attempt to boost legitimacy by claiming to be way older than they are. In the past, pro-IIPM editors, citing primary source, have expanded the history section and even claimed it was Nehru who asked Chaudhury to start the institute. LOL! Nehru, who FYI, died in 1964. That said, if a WP:RS source says the school was founded in 1973, I have no objections. For now I am ok with letting the History section remain. But the primary sources need to be replaced with 3rd party ones. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 21:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Over the next couple of days, I will be going through the article and editing information that is simply wrong, mentions things not mentioned in the sources, or are purely made up. I will list the changes here as I make them and give reasons.
1. In accredition there is a line - However, NVAO, as per the email, accredits Dutch and French courses. IMI degrees are offered in English. The email in the source, Careers 360 article, says no such thing. It does not talk about what language courses it accredits, but the geogrphic areas - Dutch and French speaking parts of Belgium. IMI's courses being in English is neither here nor there. This is a weasel line put in by wifione to discredit NVAO.
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 23:09, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
2. The only cited fact when it comes to global orgs like UN, World Bank etc is that one year, IIPM co-organized an AIDS seminar with UNDP. Other stuff mentioned in the article is uncited, probably untrue and seems to be put there just to make the institute look - a member of the World Bank Institute's steering committee on corporate social responsibility initiatives. The institute also partners the United Nations in bringing out macro economic reviews and partners the United Nations Environment Programme to the extent of organising workshops on World Environment Day under the aegis of the UN Have removed everything except the UNDP AIDS part.
3. Whoever added a lot of info (probably wifione) is obsessed with phrases like "partnering with" "joint certification", "key partner institution", phrases which are trying to convert 1-time events into some kind of a grand "partnership" or "alliance". When you look at the cited source, it becomes clear that said events usually happened only once, opften very long ago (like the UNDP-AIDS thing, 2003!). I am editing a lot of these grandiose "partner" lines to make them reflect the reality, and not serve as advertorials for IIPM.
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 15:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
4. Copy-pasting a few words from a source with quotation marks is fine, but in a lot of places, lines after lines (usually saying good things about IIPM) have been copied and pasted with quotation marks. I am rewording those parts to summarize them.
Makrandjoshi (
talk) 16:00, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Dear WeisheitSuchen, Makrand, I do need a view on whether Knowledge@Wharton source and the NTU sources qualify as reliable or not? As per me, Knowledge@Wharton is well quoted and seems respectable while NTU is not talking about anything controversial. Self published sources should not form a majority of the article surely, but can be used with considerate effect. Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 06:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
Special care is required for citing self-published sources, such as information about a college/university published by the college/university itself: the cited information must be authentic, not be self-serving (see Neutral point of view), and not involve claims about third parties. Self-published sources cannot comprise the majority of an article's citations. Student-published college newspapers and university-published press releases are generally reliable sources for verifying information, however, these sources cannot be used to establish encyclopedic notability. Coverage by mainstream news organizations should always be preferred over press releases by a college or university's news office and stories in the student newspaper.
Dear Editors/ Administrators,
The controversy lines and its section doesn't seems to have a balance , neutrality required for the same.-- Suraj845 ( talk) 08:13, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
The information about an IIPM alumnus being profiles by World Bank seems out of place in the job placement section. I am moving it to a new Alumni section. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 16:13, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
I am removing the neutrality review tag. It has been on for a while, but no one has come and expressed clearly what the neutrality issues specifically are. All I see is repeated vague statements "this is not neutral" or some such. In my edits over the last few days, I have removed lines which I think violate WP:NPOV and now the article seems balanced. So I am removing the neutrality review tag. Makrandjoshi ( talk) 11:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Adding your own viewpoints and feeling it be neutralised without proper discussions. I feel let the administrators deal whether its totally neutral or not and not an editor. Pls don't remove the neutrality tag till the discussions are over.-- Suraj845 ( talk) 13:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Discussing facts should be done with one which has a fair opinion and not indulged in opposing the facts without any logical opinion. I feel we should ask administrator to provide us with a fair editor as since the past edits of yours ( ever since you have been started editing) its always had a face in your edits, that you are some what a player of some competitor party and not a fair editor. I request the administrators to first judge your edits from the past history and to see whether your are eligible in giving fair neutral facts to any article in wiki or not. -- Suraj845 ( talk) 17:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
General statements that "it's not neutral" are not productive. Point to specific wording and offer suggestions or it can and should be ignored. -- Ricky81682 ( talk) 10:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Lots Many times unaccredited is being used which leads to the same link. I feel we should cut down and not repeat the same again and again.-- Suraj845 ( talk) 04:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I do not agree completely to the fact if we have a whole section regarding the Accreditation, then there is no point i feel it to be incorporated again n again even on the starting line of the article. -- Suraj845 ( talk) 08:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Unaccredited is the correct accurate term and should stay. -- NeilN talk to me 15:14, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, somebody just shortened the lead to 1 sentence. That's unacceptable. The lead should provide an overview of the article, and now it doesn't. Hasn't anyone actuall read WP:LEAD? ~ Amatulić ( talk) 17:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I refer to a para that goes like this "Businessweek lists IMI Belgium as an unaccredited business school[13]. Career 360, an Indian career oriented magazine, reported sources in NVAO....BusinessWeek lists IMI in the section on "Full Time MBA Profiles" as an unaccredited institution.[35][36][37][38]" Should a whole paragraph about details of IMI stay in the IIPM article? Wireless Fidelity Class One ( talk 03:01, 11 December 2009 (UTC)