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First, thanks Fowler&Fowler for the excellent effort. This page you have created would help immensely to build up the independence movement section in History of India, and also will help organizing the Indian independence movement article. Properly structuring History of India and IIM articles will help summarizing in India article. This approach is really praiseworthy.
Now, regarding the content of the page. We have to remember the content of the page is primarily intended for those two articles (History of India, and IIM), so coverage should include non-mainstream staffs as well. IMO, the "sporadic killing of British official" during Swadeshi movement is sufficient to cover revolutionary movements of early twentieth century. However, this non-mainstream movements need some more sentences later on also (1920s and 1930s).
In addition, movements for Indian independence from outside of India needs a mention. This include, probably among other things, Ghadar party and Indian National Army. Regarding the leaders named, I feel two more may be named, Patel and Bose. Some staffs may be deleted, such as Gokhale's view on Hindu marriage. Otherwise, the page is a nice read, and gives a quite readable gist of the independence movement.-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 16:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Wow! it's great. Some queries:
Anyway, it's brilliant. I hope others will agree.-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 17:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
sincere apologies if this seems like nitpicking, but thought I should point these out. But I think Fowler has done a wonderful job here. Rueben lys 00:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose to start organizing the Independence movement section in History of India. With Fowler's creation acting as a backbone, this shall not pose a big challenge. i would request Fowler to go ahead and do it. And a request, Fowler, please do not tag the page as Under construction for such a long time as in the case of Partition of India!! Just kidding :)-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 02:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I am shocked to see that there is not one single mention of India's partition which was by all accounts one of the biggest mass movements of people on earth, it was also a very significant historical event that deserves special mention on the India page.
There can be no denying that the republic of India's borders were largely shaped by British colonialists and Muslim nationalists. I do not have to provide sources on the partition of India as this is a well known historical event and many sources are available in many different forms, newspapers, clips, documents, commissions, declarations etc etc.
S Seagal 18:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
“ | British rule in India ended in 1947 after a sustained campaign for independence, led by the Indian National Congress (Congress). British India was partitioned, amid great bloodshed, to create Muslim-majority Pakistan and the secular state of India. | ” |
This is regarding the sub-page that is being created. I understand that it is not final yet but I have to strongly advise against using such terms. Their is a very popular saying, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." News organizations throughout the world take extreme care at using this word. For instance, Reuters has a policy of not using the word but simply reporting the facts and letting the readers judge. It is strongly pushing your PoV to use such sensitive terms. One can argue almost all revolutions had a terrorist aspect to it. That does not mean we go and label French revolution as French terrorism. The word terrorism is highly ambiguous and has a very uneven history of usage. I hope people stay away from this can of worms and we do not have to waste another five thousand lines of debate. -- Blacksun 12:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the Taj Mahal photo belongs better in the History section than in the Culture section. The main article "History of India" shows the Taj Mahal photo, but the main article "Culture of India" doesn't display it. By 'main article', I mean the articles listed as such in the respective sections of the India page. Comments? -- Thoreaulylazy 22:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The Toda hut is a sacred Toda dairy, which is surrounded on three sides by a low wall and whose door is usually smaller than that of a regular Toda hut. I have provided references (including pictures and quotes) and removed the dubious tag. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 06:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Quotes from others:
-- Thoreaulylazy 17:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Whats wrong with Putting a Picture of a Hindu temple... more than 800 MILLION people in India are hindu. It would be nonsensicle to put a picture representing .0001 % of a population when u can put a picture representing 80% of the population. There is no way u can argue that a toda hut is more representative of india that a hindu temple. And by the way, most of the Toda people live in Modern homes as someone had said earlier. Nikkul 18:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
You start out by being condescending: "I'm touched at your devotion to the toda people, really, I'm touched, but ..." You next attempt lame humor, poking fun at the Toda people's sacred rites, in, "I have never called the Toda hut a housing or said 99.999% do not live in it. I would say 100% do not live in it because it's a dairy and apart from the holy milkman, no one resides there." There is of course a small chance that you were not attempting humor there—given the many aberrations of grammar and diction in those two sentences ("a housing," "live in it," "100% do not live in it,"); in that case, please accept my apologies. However, frankly, you cannot call a priest (or a dairyman-priest) a "holy milkman" (without attribution to Frazer's Golden Bough, or without providing a link (e.g. Todas#Religion)) and then expect comprehension whose empathy stretches beyond the limits of idiomatic speech. Frazer's book, moreover, is dated. Here is an example from that same paragraph on the Todas: "Further, the holy milkman never cuts his hair or pares his nails so long as he holds office; he never crosses a river by a bridge, but wades through a ford and only certain fords; if a death occurs in his clan, he may not attend any of the funeral ceremonies, unless he first resigns his office and descends from the exalted rank of milkman to that of a mere common mortal. Indeed it appears that in old days he had to resign the seals, or rather the pails, of office whenever any member of his clan departed this life." (Italics mine.) That is certainly not the neutral language of modern anthropology or language that would be allowed on Wikipedia (other than in a quote). Frazer is clearly making a lame joke at the expense of the Todas, how do we know that you are not? Assuming you are using "holy milkman" as another neutral synonym for a priest, it still doesn't explain why you would add, "I would say 100% (of Indians) do not live in it because it's a dairy and apart from the holy milkman, no one resides there." (parenthetical explanation mine). What useful information are you supplying there? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume good faith, but your poor diction, careless use of language, and lack of attribution doesn't give me much confidence. If you think I am being needlessly harsh, please post those two sentences on the talk page of WP:MOS and ask them to weigh in.
Anyway, this is as far as I go. The bottom line for me is that I see this becoming an endless non-exchange, and I will not pursue this beyond this point on this page. However, if you ask for formal mediation, I will respond. Be aware though that the logic of why and how images are added to country pages is not one of percentages alone: of the 15 country Featured Articles other than India, only three or four focus on "high culture" in their pictures, the rest (11) are more like India:
One more, Japan, is sort of in the middle:
Two, others, (not FAs), demonstrate other approaches:
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Aside: Perhaps some effort expended here can be directed at improving the
Brihadeeswarar Temple page, which is currently in a sorry state. It would also be worthwhile to {{
globalize}} articles on
High Art
High culture and
Folk Art.
Abecedare
23:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Expand to see the excerpts on "Folk Art" from Encarta and Britannica: | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Encarta (Folk Art):
Britannica (Folk Art):
|
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The Todas are just one of thousands of tribes in India with populations under 5000. Who is going to decide which tribe gets their image on Wikipedia? Is it going to be Fowler or Nichalp? Are there not Kashmiri people and Marathi People, and Tamils and Kerlaites and Assamese ppl and many more whose populations are in the millions? What about them? One of the only things Indian demographics has in common is Hinduism. A temple or a Diwali photo will def. make sense and fit well because it is acutally mentioned in the culture section. Housing is not mentioned in the culture section!
One example is this: Muslims make up 3% of France. Does that mean you will see a Muslim building in France as part of the French Demographics section? No Way. Because 97% of French people are not muslim. The stats are much more severe in India. Only .0001% of India is Todas. The rest are not. Stop dragging this discussion out. You can not favor one tribe who is soooo small and put their image on Wiki when theyre not even worth mentioning in the section Nikkul 00:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me Nichalp. I dont think you have any right to choose which one tribe gets their image on Wikipedia. Sorry. You cant authorize the inclusion of the Apatani image or the Toda image where it clearly doesnt belong. Tribes do not represent the culture of India. Get over it. Nikkul 05:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Still discussing the "Toda Hut"? Hasn't this been going on since March? Why not replace it with a non-building that involves Indian culture? Or maybe a temple, since temples are centers of culture? Maybe a picture of a festival? Surely we have good pictures of these things. The Behnam 02:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. Why don't we let them (the Mediation Committee) decide what the issue is. The "Toda hut" image has been here for almost a year. You want to replace it. You provide your reasons for why it doesn't belong, and I'll provide mine for why it does. Complicating the issue with a hybrid word like "iconic symbol," when you mean
icon, is not going to help. If I don't hear from you by the same time tomorrow, I will go ahead an file a request for mediation, with you two of us as respondents. You are welcome to add anyone else on your side, provided we have their consent. In the mean time, I would request you to replace the original Toda image (with its accompanying caption). Regards,
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
15:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't see this earlier. Yes, I am well aware of RfCs, having been through a few during the last few months. I suggested the Request for Mediation, because the last two RfCs didn't lead anywhere and the mediation committee members themselves suggested in my last dispute with Rueben lys to go directly for formal mediation. If you want to do an RfC that is fine, but you need to reinstate the Toda image. Many discussion have been conducted on this page without resorting to unilateral removal of an image (especially a Featured Picture); the last such discussion began a week ago, and one editor in particular, user Thoreaulylazy, spent a considerable amount of time researching the issues, but without resorting to such unilateral removal. However, you, without any history of discussing this topic and with scant history of contributing to the India page, come along, and off goes the picture. You were being disingenuous, by the way, when you gave "my ownership of this page," as an excuse for not contributing earlier. You started editing editing Wikipedia long before I appeared on it, had already completed around 900 edits around the time I made my first edit, had made another 1000 edits (making a total of almost 2000) before I took a stand on any issue, which would have allowed you to even notice my presence, let alone confer allegations of "ownership" on me. Of these 2,000 edits you made, edits whose choice of page you can't lay at my doorstep, there is not a single edit made on the India page. The same holds, BTW, for user:Behnam and user:Sarvagnya, both of whose actual edits on the India page are few; their ratios of edits on the India page to edits on the Talk:India page are abysmally low. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Please add my name to those opposing the Toda Hut image as a representation of summerized Indian culture. I do not know much about how this works but I will be more than happy to do anything required to make the India article better and more accurate. Just let me know.
By the way, this doesnt seem like a dispute. Its more like 2 editors favoring an image against like 6 editors who oppose it. Nikkul 21:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
We can use these images which are much more relevant...as shown above
I should like to remind people that two weeks ago, doubts were being expressed, for example by user:Sarvagnya, about the authenticity of the Toda image, whether it really was even that of a hut, since its door was deemed by the doubters to be too small for any adult human to enter. After I provided references testifying to the smallness of the Toda doors in general, and the sacred dairy doors in particular, that line of questioning died down. However, soon the refrain changed to one of wonderment about why architectural features were being mentioned in the Toda caption, when none were mentioned in the the Taj Mahal caption. Well, guess why?! I am therefore changing the Toda image caption to one that addresses their contribution not only to the culture of India, and the culture of the world, but culture in its most general anthropological sense, i.e. "the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another." The Todas, along with the Andamanese, were two of the foundational cultures of the field of Social Anthropology, through the works of two of its founders W. H. R. Rivers and A. R. Radcliffe-Brown. In addition, the Toda's preeminent art form, extempore song, was important in the creation of the new field of Ethnomusicology in the 1980s. Before you rush to throw that Wikipedia rule book at me and accuse me of POV, OR, etc. etc., be aware that all this is well documented, in the caption itself and I will be adding more references to the Toda people page. In addition, during the last decade, the Toda have become the center of an effort at culturally sensitive environmental restoration. I have provided references for that on my subpage: User:Fowler&fowler/The Toda. I would also like to remind the new generation of critics who are now quoting UNDUE WEIGHT etc. (and I don't mean user Thoreaulylazy, whose acumen I rather enjoyed) that 11 of the 15 country Feature Articles on Wikipedia, take an approach of combining "High Culture" and "Folk Culture" as the combination of the "Taj" and "Toda" images does. (Only 3 or 4 of the country FAs take an approach like that of United Kingdom: Culture being touted by user:Priyanath.) Perhaps you would like to throw the rule book at them too. Here, by the way, in collapsible box format, is the list of those country pages:
Expand to see culture in 11 of the 15 country FAs: |
---|
of the 15 country Featured Articles other than India, only three or four focus on "high culture" in their pictures, the rest (11) are more like India:
One more, Japan, is sort of in the middle:
Two, others, (not FAs), demonstrate other approaches: |
Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 11:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
If you recall, we had talked about both copy-editing and sourcing some sections of the India page. Quickly skimming through the page, it seems, that the following sections need some work:
Would someone like to take a stab at one of these tasks? (I am unfortunately swamped right now with the history stuff.) In my opinion, the copy-editing is more important than the sourcing. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I have been adding some refs to the Culture section, and was wondering if editors here feel that we need to add references for (what I consider) indisputable statements, such as "India's national sport is field hockey, even though cricket is the most popular sport." ?
Perhaps, it would help if someone went through the Culture section and added {{
cn}} tags where they think citations are needed; instead of simply tagging the whole section. That will help me and others focus attention on
"Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged" and it will also be clear when the section is sufficiently referenced. I know that this will "deface" a FA article, but that should not last more than a week or so and will eventually result in an improved article. Of course, any help in adding quality references to this and other sections is appreciated. Cheers.
Abecedare
22:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Both the newly-minted FA Peru and an older one Germany have "labeled area maps" in their "States" or "Regions" sections: See Peru#Regions and Germany#States. These maps allow the user to click on a state, region, or even a city and go directly to its page. The Germany page Germany#States has the Wiki-code for this (I believe). Could someone look into doing this for India#Subdivisions. I think it would be very helpful. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Article has sections, but no subsections at all. Try restructure. Readability will be better if article is in tree structure, theoritically. Thanks. Lara_bran 14:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
A good example of Headings and sub-headings is the Brazil article. -- Knowledge Hegemony 18:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed two of Nikkul's horribly photoshopped images. They are far from naturally looking and to my best option they look disgusting. =Nichalp «Talk»= 01:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't realize that the images had been so heavily photoshopped. See
While cropping or minor histogram equalization is understandable, photoshopping images to introduce fictional elements in the scene (horizontal symmetry in the first image and clouds in the second) is certainly not kosher for an encyclopedia (except to illustrate articles on photo editing). The fact that the editing was "horrible" is irrelevant - the visual deception perpetrated by these images makes them unencyclopedic and they should IMO be deleted from wikipedia. I trust that Nikkul meant well in editing these images and adding them to this (and other ?) article(s); but I hope that this is not repeated and any other similarly "enhanced" images will be voluntarily flagged for deletion by him. Abecedare 19:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I understand that adding clouds and stuff is not right. I was only trying to make it more appealing to the eye. I will not do that again. But I do not like my goodwilled efforts to be labeled and called "horrible" by someone who is not willing to improve them, just criticize them. I will add the original image soon and have these deleted. Nikkul 19:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Considering the incessant disputes and accompanying tags, shouldn't be remove featured article status from this article? Some sections aren't even well-sourced. The Behnam 16:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
just because a lot of people are absolutely obsessing over every detail of this article doesn't make it less FA-worthy. To the contrary, there are few more closely watched and talked-to-death articles than this one. Now if only editors would care a little more about the many, many India-related articles that languish in an absolutely apalling state. I have rarely seen more horrible prose than at anon-created articles about some obscure India related topic on Wikipedia. Go after cleaning up those instead of bickering about every character on this article. dab (𒁳) 07:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have largely re-written the Geography section, and added the relevant sources. Please let me know what you think. Here is the previous version of the section (before I began to work on it earlier today) and here is the final version. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 05:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Now that we have harvard-style citations the referencing has become inconsistent. This is one of the reasons why Geography of India was defeatured.( archived FARC discussion). We'll have to do something about it. Knowledge Hegemony 08:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
{{RFCmedia| section=Request for Comment: Featured Picture in the Culture Section of a Featured Country Article!! reason=A dispute over the appropriateness of a featured picture in the culture section of the featured country article [[India]] !! time=16:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC) }} {{RFCreli| section=Request for Comment: Featured Picture in the Culture Section of a Featured Country Article!! reason=A dispute over the appropriateness of a featured picture in the culture section of the featured country article [[India]] !! time=16:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)}} {{RFCsoc| section=Request for Comment: Featured Picture in the Culture Section of a Featured Country Article!! reason=A dispute over the appropriateness of a featured picture in the culture section of the featured country article [[India]] !! time=16:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)}}
The "Toda hut" image is a Wikipedia Featured picture that, along with an image of the Taj Mahal, has accompanied the text of the culture section of the FA India since January 2007. (Since the image has been removed for this RfC, it is no longer on the India page itself, but can be seen in its context, in the page history here). The Toda people, whose sacred dairy is featured in the image, have contributed not only to the culture of India, but also to Culture as defined more broadly on the Wikipedia Culture page. Although a minuscule fraction of the population of India, the Toda have since the early nineteenth century attracted disproportionate scholarly interest, and remain one of the most studied ethnic groups in Asia. They are, along with the Andamanese, among the "classic" cultures of Social Anthropology, known through the works two of the field's founders W. H. R. Rivers and A. R. Radcliffe-Brown. [3] In addition, the Toda's preeminent art form, extempore song, [1] through M. B. Emeneau's monumental Toda Songs, was important in the creation of the new field of Ethnomusicology in the 1980s. [2] Although their traditional lifestyle of buffalo herding was affected during the years 1970-95 consequent to the state government's promotion of agriculture, they have during the last decade become the center of an effort at culturally sensitive environmental restoration. [4] The Toda lands are now a part of The Nilgiri Biosphere Reserve, a UNESCO-designated International Biosphere Reserve, and also part of a larger area under consideration by the UNESCO World Heritage Committee for selection as a World Heritage Site. [5] The Todas culture is a superb example of India's diverse folk culture, which, thankfully, is still surviving, if only barely so.
However, from the time of the image's appearance on the India page, it has also drawn criticism, especially from editors, who feel that the image of a "grass hut" is not appropriate to India's ancient and glorious culture. These editors would prefer to see more "mainstream" images like that of a temple on the UNESCO World Heritage List, or that of Rabindranath Tagore, India's only Nobel laureate in literature: examples of High culture, rather than the Folk Culture exemplified by the Toda people. These editors claim too that the Toda image is not representative of India, since, the Toda population of approximately one thousand constitutes too small a minority to deserve attention (much less pride of place) on the India page. They feel that there are more appropriate images of India's culture that rightfully belong to the culture section instead. However, when I examined other country FAs, I discovered that eleven of the (total) fifteen combine images of "High Culture" and "Folk Culture," in ways akin to the "Taj Mahal" and the "Toda hut" combination:
Expand to see culture in 11 of the 15 country FAs: |
---|
of the 15 country Featured Articles other than India, only three or four focus on "high culture" in their pictures, the rest (11) are more like India:
One more, Japan, is sort of in the middle:
Two, others, (not FAs), demonstrate other approaches: |
The questions, then, that I would like to request comments on are:
Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC) Last updated: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Regarding Fowler's arguments:
Comment: If there is a section added to the article about India's tribes, mentioning the Todas, then I would be very supportive of this image being in that section. But to replace an image of Rabindranath Tagore with a hut, or to keep out other extremely notable features of Indian culture with a picture of a hut, is unencyclopedic to say the least.
There are thousands of small groups who number less than 2000 in India. And ALL have a culture that they have formed over the last hundreds of years. Many have been studied by foreigners. I would like to ask anyone who supports the Toda image this question: "Who are you to decide that the Toda's (who are one of thousands of Indian tribes) will get their image on Wikipedia. Who are you to decide that the other small groups do not deserve to have their image on Wikipedia, but the Toda's do?" If we start looking at the minorities, we will not be able to focus on one. Besides the Todas there are sooooo many other tribes like Chenchus, Konda Reddis, Kolams, Naikpods, Nishis, Apa Tanis,Khovas, Sherdukpens, Monpas, And MANY MANY MANY more. For the list see this: List of Scheduled Tribes in India. It is not as if India is made up of only tribes. All these tribes form only 8 percent of India! In a summary of Indian culture, you can not disregard 92 percent of a country and favor the 8 percent.. But If we do decide that these tribes should be given representation on the page, then who is going to be the one saying "This tribe should have their image on Wiki while the rest of the thousands shouldnt" No one tribe is better than another. Hence, the best thing to do is to pick a majority instead of many minorities. It is not only the smart thing to do but also the obvious thing to do.
The Toda's number less than 1400. This makes them .0001 % of the Indian population. By having this image, you are totally ignoring the culture of literally 99.9999% of India. This not only contradicts the Wikipedia relevance policy but also does not belong in a summary of India's culture.
A group that does not deserve to be mentioned in the summary of the section should not have an image in it either.
There is NO mention of the Toda's or of housing in the culture section while there is mention of Hinduism, Diwali, sports, etc, all of which have very relevant images that can be used. Hinduism for example forms 80 percent of india and Hindu traditions would make more sense in the culture section because they represent 80% of the topic at hand rather than the .0001% that the Toda hut represents. Toda architecture is NOT at all prevalent throughout India. Infact, it is confined to a very very very small area of India while Hinduism is prevalent in ALL of India. If there were no images left in the world besides the toda image, even then i would not use it because it is a misrepresentation. But thankfully, there are millions of images relating to Indian culture and they would better suit the section. The toda hut does not represent Indian culture at all.
Todas dont live in huts anymore. They have started living in modern homes. [11]
Additionally, there is no need for mediation. Concensus has already been established based on past discussions:
Users For:
Users Against:
Sorry, old "votes" don't count. They have to be signed with a date stamp during the RfC. Sorry, I take that back. I think the point of an RfC is to invite comments from others, not to start a parallel election for an image candidate. It undermines the "complexity" an RfC aims to achieve.
Fowler&fowler
«Talk» 03:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC) Even though this is not a vote, we should not remove the signatures of people who actually had signed; they would need to do that. I have therefore re-instated them. The other names on the list were added by
user:Nikkul based on his understanding of their views or previous comments, as has been reiterated by
user:Priyanath and acknowledged by
user:Nikkul himself below. Thanks.
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
16:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I support removing of Toda hut image. My reasoning is simple: The Toda hut image is really not that crucial to the article. In fact, the decision to include it is a subjective one. This means that it is not worth the division it has been causing for more than a year now and all the "discussions" we have had related to it. -- Blacksun 11:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been watching this situation for a long time although refrained from any comment. I have edited Toda page in the past and have an interest in subaltern subject matters in Wikipedia. I think that by removing the Toda hut image from the India article makes it poorer in its content. India is a kaleidoscope people, culture and languages. Most mainstream articles about India ignore that diversity and concentrate on what is considered to be manifestation of elitist culture ignoring the way of life of the subaltern and marginalized groups. Paradoxically the true Indian culture (if you speak numerically) is experienced by these very people who are ignored in any mainstream culture. For those interested in this aspect of India, the best starting source would be Myth and Reality, Studies in the formation of Indian culture by D.D.Kosambi would be of great help. The Toda Hut picture brings to the readers mind that India is not just Diwali , Taj Mahal and Cricket as populist belief would have us believe. But it is a lot more nuanced, varied, and dynamic place. Toda hut has a place in India article. Thanks Taprobanus 13:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to break the bubble, plurality of Indians still live in huts not in Taj Mahals but the Toda hut is the best looking Hut I have seen in India. The Norm would be what we find in Dharavi. Now do we want to add a picture of Dharavi because that is a notable item ? just curious also I think the gallary suggestion is a good compromise Taprobanus 13:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
There's several things here - so lets get the simple ones out of the way first. That has to do with arguments in favour of the toda pic.
What they dont seem to realize is that, while their "contrast" argument may very well be a 'reasonable' argument in the real world, it is NOT so on wikipedia. In the real world, I could make a case that a rose is more beautiful than a lily and might even be able to bring around a majority to support my view and sense of aesthetics. On wikipedia however, I wouldnt stand a whiff of a chance with such arguments.
That said, the problems here go much deeper. The biggest lie that routinely makes the rounds around these parts is that this is a summary article. Nothing could be farther from the truth. A summary article is one where each section is a summary of a reasonably comprehensive and well written child article. I'd like to see someone show me atleast one section which can reasonably claim to be a summary of a half decent child article. Until we fix that, these problems will continue to sprout. And article expansion will be both a means and an inevitable result of such a 'fix'. So it is high time people stopped acting like the article would blow up with the slightest expansion of the article.
All those waxing eloquent about Toda and tribal culture in general, would do well to go and add some of that info to the Culture of India article. At the moment, that article has ... hold your breath.. 0 bytes dedicated to Todas and Apatanis put together. There is in fact, no mention of tribals at all! If these tribes cant find a place in a child article, they shouldnt find a place in what is claimed to be a summary article. If Bose, who is a million times more notable in the context of the Indian independence movement than the Todas are in the context of culture, has to fight for even so much as a mention in this article, I dont see the Toda pic making it into the article in a million years. For that matter, I'd even argue that since Gandhi, the pacifist face of the IIM is shown, we should also have a pic of Bose, arguably the 'non-pacifist' face of the IIM! counter point and counterpoise folks, counter point and counterpoise!
Each time a newbie tries to add something to this article, he is driven, nay hounded away by the Fowlers and the Saravasks and the Nichalps who jump in with their staple "this is a summary article" nonsense. And since their Toda pic fails because of that very argument, they now want us to buy into their sense of aesthetics. Neat.
I have not only pointed out how cliched the Taj pic is.. but as far as I can remember, I've (along with Arvind) been the only one who's complained of systemic bias on this and other articles. I am all for giving non-mainstream(which often times simply is the "out of sight, out of mind" syndrome at work and not relative merit) things and people more visibility on wikipedia but not like this. You cant throw crumbs in the form of a pic and be done with it. Its condescending. Its almost like saying.. "hey.. this is a summary article.. so the NE(for example) is mostly backward and cant elbow the BSEs and the SEZs out of the economy section.. they pretty much dont fit in any section coz they're either non-"mainstream" or at the bottom rung of everything.... so just to give them some room and just to make sure there's a superficial balance, lets drop some pics and be done" That seems to be what is guiding the addition of pics like the apatani and the toda pic. And that is what I wouldnt allow. The right way to do it would be to start a "Scheduled castes and tribes" subsection of "Demographics" and then write a 4-5 line paragraph about the SC and Ts and then pick a suitable picture like the toda or the apatani one to accompany the subsection. Throwing a pic here and a pic there and claiming to have taken care of systemic bias just doesnt fly. Sarvagnya 01:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I can't see the Toda hut picture be the root cause of this discord and I find it sad that the picture is turning into a battleground. It looks very unique and surely must enrich the article, that is not to say the other pictures don't. I have certainly gotten very curious about Todas from looking at it. We must remember the tribal people are largely voiceless in many parts of the world. I am not sure how true that is within the regions of India. One thing that makes it all the more poignant is that it sounds like there is about a 1000 Toda speakers left which usually implies the culture is heading towards extinction within a few generations. I think Sarvagnya proposes a very reasonable solution, that is to have a section on the tribal people and have a picture accompanying it. Would there be any opposition to that ? Sinhala freedom 04:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
My personal view is that Tagore's image is an excellent choice, but it's given with the caveat that I haven't contributed at all to the article -- Samir 02:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Following are my comments. -- Sundar \ talk \ contribs 05:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I won't have time until the weekend to write in detail, but I've previously listed my thoughts on this Talk page. One of the points I brought up is how Todas are not mentioned in the Tamil Nadu article, which is their home state. I don't see how they can be included into the national-level page unless they at the very least possess notability at the state-level. Also, very few Todas themselves still have traditional Toda dairies; most have modernized, and therefore they themselves are abandoning the style. Many other folk and traditional styles are not being abandoned, so I would suggest focusing on those styles which will continue to stay in use for the foreseeable future. -- Thoreaulylazy 12:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with Priyanth that the photos he lists of the temple or dance forms etc are more representative of Indian culture than the hut of an extreme minority community. For one the temples, dance, food, painting etc suggested form a regular parts of India, and at least as far as I am aware, you dont really get a lot of people going on holiday to India to see a Toda hut, but you do get a lot of people coming to see the Taj, the temples of Khajuraho, Madurai, going to cultural shows watching Kuchipudi, Bharatnatyam etc, and Indian forms a distinct cuisine in itself. I dont see how the Toda is at all representative of Indian culture, and seems to be more a problem of undue weight. That they're the subject of scholarly interest and the picture is a featured picture skirts the issue of wether it deserves a space in a compressed FA article like India. I believe Fowler used a software in an earlier debate regarding the Indian freedom movement to see what aspects are given due prominence and what are not. Surely this can be done again. I believe the Toda image might fit into a section dealing with ethnic groups and not in the culture section. I would say any of the images proposed by Priyanth earlier are more suitable. As for scholarly interest in the Toda people and Social Anthropology, there is also scholarly interests in the Santal people, and a number of other tribes. You cannot say they form a part of mainstream Indian culture, especially of a people whose population is 700-800 out of, what, 1000000000. The appropriate place for the image is in the Toda people article. Rueben lys 11:31, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Like what Priyanth said (and I agreed with) ,pictures from dance forms, Ajanta and Ellora, holi, Muharram, diwali, Bhangra, Vaisakhi, Ladakhi culture, South Indian culture, North Eastern cultural stuff like Bihu Dance, etc are part of mainstream Indian culture (excluding stuff like cricket, films, music etc). I cant see a Toda hut at all being a representative of that Kaleidoscope that forms mainstream Indian culture. Rueben lys 11:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Nichalp's reply seems to lack context and is itself fallacious (quite complicatedly worded) is all I can say. Bharatnatyam is well known all over India, as is Kuchipudi, oriya, Bihu etc etc, and these are well recognised as cultural aspects of the respective areas they come from. Ladakh is well known for its Indo-Tibetan culture. The aspects I mention I give above are integral parts of the Kaleidoscope somebody mentioned earlier. For example,
Have a look at these and tell me again I am making a fallcaious argument and not you in saying there is nothing that can be deemed mainstream Indian. The hut in the image is not at all a representative image of any prominent mainstream or regional Indian culture. If anything, it just proves that there is a tribe alled the Toda people somewhere in India. That's like having a picture of some Nenets people eating raw reindeer meat and drinking blood and saying thats Russian culture for you. Rueben lys 13:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
What the JSTOR articles show is that the Toda people are subject of Social anthropoligcal research, going by the titles on the first page I have listed below:
Anthony R. Walker American Ethnologist > Vol. 18, No. 1 (Feb., 1991), pp. 173-174 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0094-0496%28199102%2918%3A1%3C173%3AAMSTOT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Author(s) of Review: Stephen A. Tyler Reviewed Work(s): The Toda of South India: A New Look by Anthony R. Walker American Ethnologist > Vol. 16, No. 1 (Feb., 1989), p. 175 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0094-0496%28198902%2916%3A1%3C175%3ATTOSIA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-0 Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Author(s) of Review: S. Lourdusamy Reviewed Work(s): The Toda of South India. A New Look by Anthony R. Walker Asian Folklore Studies > Vol. 49, No. 1 (1990), pp. 179-182 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0385-2342%281990%2949%3A1%3C179%3ATTOSIA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Author(s) of Review: David W. McAlpin Reviewed Work(s): Phonology of Toda with Vocabulary by S. Sakthivel A Grammar of the Toda Language by S. Sakthivel Journal of the American Oriental Society > Vol. 101, No. 4 (Oct., 1981), pp. 491-492 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-0279%28198110%2F12%29101%3A4%3C491%3APOTWV%3E2.0.CO%3B2-R Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Man > Vol. 47 (Sep., 1947), pp. 123-124 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0025-1496%28194709%291%3A47%3C123%3A1TTATP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-E Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
C. von Furer-Haimendorf Man > Vol. 54 (Feb., 1954), pp. 28-29 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0025-1496%28195402%291%3A54%3C28%3A2HFAIS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-9 Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
M. B. Emeneau Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society > Vol. 81, No. 1 (May, 1939), pp. 93-106 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-049X%2819390531%2981%3A1%3C93%3ATCT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Reviewed Work(s): Dawn in Toda Land by C. F. Ling Bulletin of the American Geographical Society > Vol. 43, No. 4 (1911), p. 305 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0190-5929%281911%2943%3A4%3C305%3ADITL%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Similarly, Chola India would give you a detail of mostly History of the Chola Empire. Searching for and Ajanta and Ellora gives you 156 hits, searching for raaga music gives you 2 hits, so going by your argument, India's culture would be expected to be composed of only the Toda heritage. But its not is it? You see where you've lost focus of the argument. You're trying to say that the Toda people are an integral part of India's culture because you can see that they're the subject of a lot of anthropological work, while what you should be looking at is the Toda culture significant in India? has it or does it contribute any significant cultaral feature to the Indian society? You are free to answer that yourself. Rueben lys 18:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
On the subject of the Toda hut pic, it would if you looked through the discussion above and below, and my opening comments. The consensus comment follows from an earlier comment by Sarvagnya archived in 29-31, when he said (in quite different words) that you fowler and Nichalp seem to hold similar views in a number of debates. Rueben lys 23:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Who says "anthropological" studies don't belong to culture? Please read Culture. Ultimately, Wikipedia goes by the consensus of reliable sources, not by the consensus of editors, or the consensus of numbers in a population. I am saying that reliable sources in the field of Culture (of India) give at least as much if not more weight to the Toda than they do to Chola Temples. Here, btw, are the search results from the COPAC British Academic and National Library Catalogue: (Keyword: Toda India; 204 returns) (Keywords: Chola Temples India: 79 returns). And here are the results from US Library of Congress On-line Catalog of Books (Keywords: Toda India, 21 returns), (Keywords: Chola Temples India, 22 returns). (Note "Chola Temples" are needed in the keywords to excluded history books that refer to the Cholas.) I'd like to see some real sources from people trying to push the Toda dairy image off the page. Where are they? And please don't produce a Fodor's tourist guide to India as a reference, Rueben lys (or other individual examples). Please don't also go to Amazon or Google Books and do a search on one or two books on culture. No Wikipedia mediation or arbitration committee is going to choose Amazon or Google over the three catalogs I have produced. Remember, Priyanath, a week ago you couldn't stop chuckling at the very idea of the Toda dairy ("grass hut" in your words) being in the culture section of the India page. Well, its time to deliver. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 19:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Find me a single succint article on Indian culture that talks about the Toda culture.
And why is Amazon and Google book searches not acceptable??? A month ago you were championing books over peer reviewed journals and tried to argue those were more reliable sources!!! And as for google booking, I searched Stanley Wolpert's book that you held as a bible barely a month ago. I am forced to conclude your arguments thoroughly lack credability. And why are you not putting your great software to use now to show how mnmany times the Toda people are mentioned in the culture of India, you know, the one that you used to argue that Gandhi was mentioned 132423234545656 times in a book by some professor in some book? If you are willing to argue that the Toda people are more prominent in Indian culture than any of the ones I mentioned earlier, I am going to have to ask you to thoroughly revise your sources on India. Rueben lys 20:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
PS:This is what Culture says on Anthropology
“ | Culture is manifested in music, literature, painting and sculpture, theater and film.[1] Although some people identify culture in terms of consumption and consumer goods (as in high culture, low culture, folk culture, or popular culture)[2], anthropologists understand "culture" to refer not only to consumption goods, but to the general processes which produce such goods and give them meaning, and to the social relationships and practices in which such objects and processes become embedded. For them, culture thus includes technology, art, science, as well as moral systems. | ” |
Which bit of the study of social structure, interaction, christianity as a religion etc etc of the 1000 people have you found convincingly to compose a prominent part of Indian culture??? Rueben lys 20:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
In reviewing the above discussion, I think the main stumbling block seems to be the definition of culture itself. My understanding is that many in the "Against Toda" group (for example,
user:Priyanath,
user:Rueben lys, and
user:Nikkul), tend to interpret "Culture" as "
High art" "
High culture," whereas many in the "For Toda" group thinks of it in broader terms, as expressed in the lead of the WP article
Culture, and, for example, would include
Folk culture and Tribal culture as well. Would editors like
user:Priyanath,
user:Rueben lys,
user:Nikkul and any others please let me know, very briefly, if you include Folk culture and Tribal culture in your definition of Culture (and more specifically, Culture of India). As Nichalp has remarked above, we can't refer to
Culture of India for our definition of culture because that page is in shambles. In an ideal world, we should have firmed up that page first, but we didn't, and until that happens, we can't use that page as a benchmark for including or excluding anything.
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
10:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, I really dont understand the emphasis of your question, but if it is what I think it is, have a look at the answer below to Dagizza's section. Rueben lys 11:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | → | Archive 20 |
First, thanks Fowler&Fowler for the excellent effort. This page you have created would help immensely to build up the independence movement section in History of India, and also will help organizing the Indian independence movement article. Properly structuring History of India and IIM articles will help summarizing in India article. This approach is really praiseworthy.
Now, regarding the content of the page. We have to remember the content of the page is primarily intended for those two articles (History of India, and IIM), so coverage should include non-mainstream staffs as well. IMO, the "sporadic killing of British official" during Swadeshi movement is sufficient to cover revolutionary movements of early twentieth century. However, this non-mainstream movements need some more sentences later on also (1920s and 1930s).
In addition, movements for Indian independence from outside of India needs a mention. This include, probably among other things, Ghadar party and Indian National Army. Regarding the leaders named, I feel two more may be named, Patel and Bose. Some staffs may be deleted, such as Gokhale's view on Hindu marriage. Otherwise, the page is a nice read, and gives a quite readable gist of the independence movement.-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 16:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Wow! it's great. Some queries:
Anyway, it's brilliant. I hope others will agree.-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 17:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
sincere apologies if this seems like nitpicking, but thought I should point these out. But I think Fowler has done a wonderful job here. Rueben lys 00:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I propose to start organizing the Independence movement section in History of India. With Fowler's creation acting as a backbone, this shall not pose a big challenge. i would request Fowler to go ahead and do it. And a request, Fowler, please do not tag the page as Under construction for such a long time as in the case of Partition of India!! Just kidding :)-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 02:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I am shocked to see that there is not one single mention of India's partition which was by all accounts one of the biggest mass movements of people on earth, it was also a very significant historical event that deserves special mention on the India page.
There can be no denying that the republic of India's borders were largely shaped by British colonialists and Muslim nationalists. I do not have to provide sources on the partition of India as this is a well known historical event and many sources are available in many different forms, newspapers, clips, documents, commissions, declarations etc etc.
S Seagal 18:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
“ | British rule in India ended in 1947 after a sustained campaign for independence, led by the Indian National Congress (Congress). British India was partitioned, amid great bloodshed, to create Muslim-majority Pakistan and the secular state of India. | ” |
This is regarding the sub-page that is being created. I understand that it is not final yet but I have to strongly advise against using such terms. Their is a very popular saying, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." News organizations throughout the world take extreme care at using this word. For instance, Reuters has a policy of not using the word but simply reporting the facts and letting the readers judge. It is strongly pushing your PoV to use such sensitive terms. One can argue almost all revolutions had a terrorist aspect to it. That does not mean we go and label French revolution as French terrorism. The word terrorism is highly ambiguous and has a very uneven history of usage. I hope people stay away from this can of worms and we do not have to waste another five thousand lines of debate. -- Blacksun 12:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the Taj Mahal photo belongs better in the History section than in the Culture section. The main article "History of India" shows the Taj Mahal photo, but the main article "Culture of India" doesn't display it. By 'main article', I mean the articles listed as such in the respective sections of the India page. Comments? -- Thoreaulylazy 22:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The Toda hut is a sacred Toda dairy, which is surrounded on three sides by a low wall and whose door is usually smaller than that of a regular Toda hut. I have provided references (including pictures and quotes) and removed the dubious tag. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 06:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Quotes from others:
-- Thoreaulylazy 17:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Whats wrong with Putting a Picture of a Hindu temple... more than 800 MILLION people in India are hindu. It would be nonsensicle to put a picture representing .0001 % of a population when u can put a picture representing 80% of the population. There is no way u can argue that a toda hut is more representative of india that a hindu temple. And by the way, most of the Toda people live in Modern homes as someone had said earlier. Nikkul 18:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
You start out by being condescending: "I'm touched at your devotion to the toda people, really, I'm touched, but ..." You next attempt lame humor, poking fun at the Toda people's sacred rites, in, "I have never called the Toda hut a housing or said 99.999% do not live in it. I would say 100% do not live in it because it's a dairy and apart from the holy milkman, no one resides there." There is of course a small chance that you were not attempting humor there—given the many aberrations of grammar and diction in those two sentences ("a housing," "live in it," "100% do not live in it,"); in that case, please accept my apologies. However, frankly, you cannot call a priest (or a dairyman-priest) a "holy milkman" (without attribution to Frazer's Golden Bough, or without providing a link (e.g. Todas#Religion)) and then expect comprehension whose empathy stretches beyond the limits of idiomatic speech. Frazer's book, moreover, is dated. Here is an example from that same paragraph on the Todas: "Further, the holy milkman never cuts his hair or pares his nails so long as he holds office; he never crosses a river by a bridge, but wades through a ford and only certain fords; if a death occurs in his clan, he may not attend any of the funeral ceremonies, unless he first resigns his office and descends from the exalted rank of milkman to that of a mere common mortal. Indeed it appears that in old days he had to resign the seals, or rather the pails, of office whenever any member of his clan departed this life." (Italics mine.) That is certainly not the neutral language of modern anthropology or language that would be allowed on Wikipedia (other than in a quote). Frazer is clearly making a lame joke at the expense of the Todas, how do we know that you are not? Assuming you are using "holy milkman" as another neutral synonym for a priest, it still doesn't explain why you would add, "I would say 100% (of Indians) do not live in it because it's a dairy and apart from the holy milkman, no one resides there." (parenthetical explanation mine). What useful information are you supplying there? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume good faith, but your poor diction, careless use of language, and lack of attribution doesn't give me much confidence. If you think I am being needlessly harsh, please post those two sentences on the talk page of WP:MOS and ask them to weigh in.
Anyway, this is as far as I go. The bottom line for me is that I see this becoming an endless non-exchange, and I will not pursue this beyond this point on this page. However, if you ask for formal mediation, I will respond. Be aware though that the logic of why and how images are added to country pages is not one of percentages alone: of the 15 country Featured Articles other than India, only three or four focus on "high culture" in their pictures, the rest (11) are more like India:
One more, Japan, is sort of in the middle:
Two, others, (not FAs), demonstrate other approaches:
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Aside: Perhaps some effort expended here can be directed at improving the
Brihadeeswarar Temple page, which is currently in a sorry state. It would also be worthwhile to {{
globalize}} articles on
High Art
High culture and
Folk Art.
Abecedare
23:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Expand to see the excerpts on "Folk Art" from Encarta and Britannica: | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Encarta (Folk Art):
Britannica (Folk Art):
|
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
The Todas are just one of thousands of tribes in India with populations under 5000. Who is going to decide which tribe gets their image on Wikipedia? Is it going to be Fowler or Nichalp? Are there not Kashmiri people and Marathi People, and Tamils and Kerlaites and Assamese ppl and many more whose populations are in the millions? What about them? One of the only things Indian demographics has in common is Hinduism. A temple or a Diwali photo will def. make sense and fit well because it is acutally mentioned in the culture section. Housing is not mentioned in the culture section!
One example is this: Muslims make up 3% of France. Does that mean you will see a Muslim building in France as part of the French Demographics section? No Way. Because 97% of French people are not muslim. The stats are much more severe in India. Only .0001% of India is Todas. The rest are not. Stop dragging this discussion out. You can not favor one tribe who is soooo small and put their image on Wiki when theyre not even worth mentioning in the section Nikkul 00:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me Nichalp. I dont think you have any right to choose which one tribe gets their image on Wikipedia. Sorry. You cant authorize the inclusion of the Apatani image or the Toda image where it clearly doesnt belong. Tribes do not represent the culture of India. Get over it. Nikkul 05:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Still discussing the "Toda Hut"? Hasn't this been going on since March? Why not replace it with a non-building that involves Indian culture? Or maybe a temple, since temples are centers of culture? Maybe a picture of a festival? Surely we have good pictures of these things. The Behnam 02:24, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. Why don't we let them (the Mediation Committee) decide what the issue is. The "Toda hut" image has been here for almost a year. You want to replace it. You provide your reasons for why it doesn't belong, and I'll provide mine for why it does. Complicating the issue with a hybrid word like "iconic symbol," when you mean
icon, is not going to help. If I don't hear from you by the same time tomorrow, I will go ahead an file a request for mediation, with you two of us as respondents. You are welcome to add anyone else on your side, provided we have their consent. In the mean time, I would request you to replace the original Toda image (with its accompanying caption). Regards,
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
15:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't see this earlier. Yes, I am well aware of RfCs, having been through a few during the last few months. I suggested the Request for Mediation, because the last two RfCs didn't lead anywhere and the mediation committee members themselves suggested in my last dispute with Rueben lys to go directly for formal mediation. If you want to do an RfC that is fine, but you need to reinstate the Toda image. Many discussion have been conducted on this page without resorting to unilateral removal of an image (especially a Featured Picture); the last such discussion began a week ago, and one editor in particular, user Thoreaulylazy, spent a considerable amount of time researching the issues, but without resorting to such unilateral removal. However, you, without any history of discussing this topic and with scant history of contributing to the India page, come along, and off goes the picture. You were being disingenuous, by the way, when you gave "my ownership of this page," as an excuse for not contributing earlier. You started editing editing Wikipedia long before I appeared on it, had already completed around 900 edits around the time I made my first edit, had made another 1000 edits (making a total of almost 2000) before I took a stand on any issue, which would have allowed you to even notice my presence, let alone confer allegations of "ownership" on me. Of these 2,000 edits you made, edits whose choice of page you can't lay at my doorstep, there is not a single edit made on the India page. The same holds, BTW, for user:Behnam and user:Sarvagnya, both of whose actual edits on the India page are few; their ratios of edits on the India page to edits on the Talk:India page are abysmally low. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 04:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Please add my name to those opposing the Toda Hut image as a representation of summerized Indian culture. I do not know much about how this works but I will be more than happy to do anything required to make the India article better and more accurate. Just let me know.
By the way, this doesnt seem like a dispute. Its more like 2 editors favoring an image against like 6 editors who oppose it. Nikkul 21:21, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
We can use these images which are much more relevant...as shown above
I should like to remind people that two weeks ago, doubts were being expressed, for example by user:Sarvagnya, about the authenticity of the Toda image, whether it really was even that of a hut, since its door was deemed by the doubters to be too small for any adult human to enter. After I provided references testifying to the smallness of the Toda doors in general, and the sacred dairy doors in particular, that line of questioning died down. However, soon the refrain changed to one of wonderment about why architectural features were being mentioned in the Toda caption, when none were mentioned in the the Taj Mahal caption. Well, guess why?! I am therefore changing the Toda image caption to one that addresses their contribution not only to the culture of India, and the culture of the world, but culture in its most general anthropological sense, i.e. "the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another." The Todas, along with the Andamanese, were two of the foundational cultures of the field of Social Anthropology, through the works of two of its founders W. H. R. Rivers and A. R. Radcliffe-Brown. In addition, the Toda's preeminent art form, extempore song, was important in the creation of the new field of Ethnomusicology in the 1980s. Before you rush to throw that Wikipedia rule book at me and accuse me of POV, OR, etc. etc., be aware that all this is well documented, in the caption itself and I will be adding more references to the Toda people page. In addition, during the last decade, the Toda have become the center of an effort at culturally sensitive environmental restoration. I have provided references for that on my subpage: User:Fowler&fowler/The Toda. I would also like to remind the new generation of critics who are now quoting UNDUE WEIGHT etc. (and I don't mean user Thoreaulylazy, whose acumen I rather enjoyed) that 11 of the 15 country Feature Articles on Wikipedia, take an approach of combining "High Culture" and "Folk Culture" as the combination of the "Taj" and "Toda" images does. (Only 3 or 4 of the country FAs take an approach like that of United Kingdom: Culture being touted by user:Priyanath.) Perhaps you would like to throw the rule book at them too. Here, by the way, in collapsible box format, is the list of those country pages:
Expand to see culture in 11 of the 15 country FAs: |
---|
of the 15 country Featured Articles other than India, only three or four focus on "high culture" in their pictures, the rest (11) are more like India:
One more, Japan, is sort of in the middle:
Two, others, (not FAs), demonstrate other approaches: |
Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 11:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
If you recall, we had talked about both copy-editing and sourcing some sections of the India page. Quickly skimming through the page, it seems, that the following sections need some work:
Would someone like to take a stab at one of these tasks? (I am unfortunately swamped right now with the history stuff.) In my opinion, the copy-editing is more important than the sourcing. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I have been adding some refs to the Culture section, and was wondering if editors here feel that we need to add references for (what I consider) indisputable statements, such as "India's national sport is field hockey, even though cricket is the most popular sport." ?
Perhaps, it would help if someone went through the Culture section and added {{
cn}} tags where they think citations are needed; instead of simply tagging the whole section. That will help me and others focus attention on
"Material that is challenged or likely to be challenged" and it will also be clear when the section is sufficiently referenced. I know that this will "deface" a FA article, but that should not last more than a week or so and will eventually result in an improved article. Of course, any help in adding quality references to this and other sections is appreciated. Cheers.
Abecedare
22:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Both the newly-minted FA Peru and an older one Germany have "labeled area maps" in their "States" or "Regions" sections: See Peru#Regions and Germany#States. These maps allow the user to click on a state, region, or even a city and go directly to its page. The Germany page Germany#States has the Wiki-code for this (I believe). Could someone look into doing this for India#Subdivisions. I think it would be very helpful. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Article has sections, but no subsections at all. Try restructure. Readability will be better if article is in tree structure, theoritically. Thanks. Lara_bran 14:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
A good example of Headings and sub-headings is the Brazil article. -- Knowledge Hegemony 18:57, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I have removed two of Nikkul's horribly photoshopped images. They are far from naturally looking and to my best option they look disgusting. =Nichalp «Talk»= 01:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't realize that the images had been so heavily photoshopped. See
While cropping or minor histogram equalization is understandable, photoshopping images to introduce fictional elements in the scene (horizontal symmetry in the first image and clouds in the second) is certainly not kosher for an encyclopedia (except to illustrate articles on photo editing). The fact that the editing was "horrible" is irrelevant - the visual deception perpetrated by these images makes them unencyclopedic and they should IMO be deleted from wikipedia. I trust that Nikkul meant well in editing these images and adding them to this (and other ?) article(s); but I hope that this is not repeated and any other similarly "enhanced" images will be voluntarily flagged for deletion by him. Abecedare 19:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I understand that adding clouds and stuff is not right. I was only trying to make it more appealing to the eye. I will not do that again. But I do not like my goodwilled efforts to be labeled and called "horrible" by someone who is not willing to improve them, just criticize them. I will add the original image soon and have these deleted. Nikkul 19:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Considering the incessant disputes and accompanying tags, shouldn't be remove featured article status from this article? Some sections aren't even well-sourced. The Behnam 16:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
just because a lot of people are absolutely obsessing over every detail of this article doesn't make it less FA-worthy. To the contrary, there are few more closely watched and talked-to-death articles than this one. Now if only editors would care a little more about the many, many India-related articles that languish in an absolutely apalling state. I have rarely seen more horrible prose than at anon-created articles about some obscure India related topic on Wikipedia. Go after cleaning up those instead of bickering about every character on this article. dab (𒁳) 07:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have largely re-written the Geography section, and added the relevant sources. Please let me know what you think. Here is the previous version of the section (before I began to work on it earlier today) and here is the final version. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 05:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Now that we have harvard-style citations the referencing has become inconsistent. This is one of the reasons why Geography of India was defeatured.( archived FARC discussion). We'll have to do something about it. Knowledge Hegemony 08:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
{{RFCmedia| section=Request for Comment: Featured Picture in the Culture Section of a Featured Country Article!! reason=A dispute over the appropriateness of a featured picture in the culture section of the featured country article [[India]] !! time=16:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC) }} {{RFCreli| section=Request for Comment: Featured Picture in the Culture Section of a Featured Country Article!! reason=A dispute over the appropriateness of a featured picture in the culture section of the featured country article [[India]] !! time=16:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)}} {{RFCsoc| section=Request for Comment: Featured Picture in the Culture Section of a Featured Country Article!! reason=A dispute over the appropriateness of a featured picture in the culture section of the featured country article [[India]] !! time=16:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)}}
The "Toda hut" image is a Wikipedia Featured picture that, along with an image of the Taj Mahal, has accompanied the text of the culture section of the FA India since January 2007. (Since the image has been removed for this RfC, it is no longer on the India page itself, but can be seen in its context, in the page history here). The Toda people, whose sacred dairy is featured in the image, have contributed not only to the culture of India, but also to Culture as defined more broadly on the Wikipedia Culture page. Although a minuscule fraction of the population of India, the Toda have since the early nineteenth century attracted disproportionate scholarly interest, and remain one of the most studied ethnic groups in Asia. They are, along with the Andamanese, among the "classic" cultures of Social Anthropology, known through the works two of the field's founders W. H. R. Rivers and A. R. Radcliffe-Brown. [3] In addition, the Toda's preeminent art form, extempore song, [1] through M. B. Emeneau's monumental Toda Songs, was important in the creation of the new field of Ethnomusicology in the 1980s. [2] Although their traditional lifestyle of buffalo herding was affected during the years 1970-95 consequent to the state government's promotion of agriculture, they have during the last decade become the center of an effort at culturally sensitive environmental restoration. [4] The Toda lands are now a part of The Nilgiri Biosphere Reserve, a UNESCO-designated International Biosphere Reserve, and also part of a larger area under consideration by the UNESCO World Heritage Committee for selection as a World Heritage Site. [5] The Todas culture is a superb example of India's diverse folk culture, which, thankfully, is still surviving, if only barely so.
However, from the time of the image's appearance on the India page, it has also drawn criticism, especially from editors, who feel that the image of a "grass hut" is not appropriate to India's ancient and glorious culture. These editors would prefer to see more "mainstream" images like that of a temple on the UNESCO World Heritage List, or that of Rabindranath Tagore, India's only Nobel laureate in literature: examples of High culture, rather than the Folk Culture exemplified by the Toda people. These editors claim too that the Toda image is not representative of India, since, the Toda population of approximately one thousand constitutes too small a minority to deserve attention (much less pride of place) on the India page. They feel that there are more appropriate images of India's culture that rightfully belong to the culture section instead. However, when I examined other country FAs, I discovered that eleven of the (total) fifteen combine images of "High Culture" and "Folk Culture," in ways akin to the "Taj Mahal" and the "Toda hut" combination:
Expand to see culture in 11 of the 15 country FAs: |
---|
of the 15 country Featured Articles other than India, only three or four focus on "high culture" in their pictures, the rest (11) are more like India:
One more, Japan, is sort of in the middle:
Two, others, (not FAs), demonstrate other approaches: |
The questions, then, that I would like to request comments on are:
Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC) Last updated: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Regarding Fowler's arguments:
Comment: If there is a section added to the article about India's tribes, mentioning the Todas, then I would be very supportive of this image being in that section. But to replace an image of Rabindranath Tagore with a hut, or to keep out other extremely notable features of Indian culture with a picture of a hut, is unencyclopedic to say the least.
There are thousands of small groups who number less than 2000 in India. And ALL have a culture that they have formed over the last hundreds of years. Many have been studied by foreigners. I would like to ask anyone who supports the Toda image this question: "Who are you to decide that the Toda's (who are one of thousands of Indian tribes) will get their image on Wikipedia. Who are you to decide that the other small groups do not deserve to have their image on Wikipedia, but the Toda's do?" If we start looking at the minorities, we will not be able to focus on one. Besides the Todas there are sooooo many other tribes like Chenchus, Konda Reddis, Kolams, Naikpods, Nishis, Apa Tanis,Khovas, Sherdukpens, Monpas, And MANY MANY MANY more. For the list see this: List of Scheduled Tribes in India. It is not as if India is made up of only tribes. All these tribes form only 8 percent of India! In a summary of Indian culture, you can not disregard 92 percent of a country and favor the 8 percent.. But If we do decide that these tribes should be given representation on the page, then who is going to be the one saying "This tribe should have their image on Wiki while the rest of the thousands shouldnt" No one tribe is better than another. Hence, the best thing to do is to pick a majority instead of many minorities. It is not only the smart thing to do but also the obvious thing to do.
The Toda's number less than 1400. This makes them .0001 % of the Indian population. By having this image, you are totally ignoring the culture of literally 99.9999% of India. This not only contradicts the Wikipedia relevance policy but also does not belong in a summary of India's culture.
A group that does not deserve to be mentioned in the summary of the section should not have an image in it either.
There is NO mention of the Toda's or of housing in the culture section while there is mention of Hinduism, Diwali, sports, etc, all of which have very relevant images that can be used. Hinduism for example forms 80 percent of india and Hindu traditions would make more sense in the culture section because they represent 80% of the topic at hand rather than the .0001% that the Toda hut represents. Toda architecture is NOT at all prevalent throughout India. Infact, it is confined to a very very very small area of India while Hinduism is prevalent in ALL of India. If there were no images left in the world besides the toda image, even then i would not use it because it is a misrepresentation. But thankfully, there are millions of images relating to Indian culture and they would better suit the section. The toda hut does not represent Indian culture at all.
Todas dont live in huts anymore. They have started living in modern homes. [11]
Additionally, there is no need for mediation. Concensus has already been established based on past discussions:
Users For:
Users Against:
Sorry, old "votes" don't count. They have to be signed with a date stamp during the RfC. Sorry, I take that back. I think the point of an RfC is to invite comments from others, not to start a parallel election for an image candidate. It undermines the "complexity" an RfC aims to achieve.
Fowler&fowler
«Talk» 03:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC) Even though this is not a vote, we should not remove the signatures of people who actually had signed; they would need to do that. I have therefore re-instated them. The other names on the list were added by
user:Nikkul based on his understanding of their views or previous comments, as has been reiterated by
user:Priyanath and acknowledged by
user:Nikkul himself below. Thanks.
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
16:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I support removing of Toda hut image. My reasoning is simple: The Toda hut image is really not that crucial to the article. In fact, the decision to include it is a subjective one. This means that it is not worth the division it has been causing for more than a year now and all the "discussions" we have had related to it. -- Blacksun 11:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been watching this situation for a long time although refrained from any comment. I have edited Toda page in the past and have an interest in subaltern subject matters in Wikipedia. I think that by removing the Toda hut image from the India article makes it poorer in its content. India is a kaleidoscope people, culture and languages. Most mainstream articles about India ignore that diversity and concentrate on what is considered to be manifestation of elitist culture ignoring the way of life of the subaltern and marginalized groups. Paradoxically the true Indian culture (if you speak numerically) is experienced by these very people who are ignored in any mainstream culture. For those interested in this aspect of India, the best starting source would be Myth and Reality, Studies in the formation of Indian culture by D.D.Kosambi would be of great help. The Toda Hut picture brings to the readers mind that India is not just Diwali , Taj Mahal and Cricket as populist belief would have us believe. But it is a lot more nuanced, varied, and dynamic place. Toda hut has a place in India article. Thanks Taprobanus 13:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to break the bubble, plurality of Indians still live in huts not in Taj Mahals but the Toda hut is the best looking Hut I have seen in India. The Norm would be what we find in Dharavi. Now do we want to add a picture of Dharavi because that is a notable item ? just curious also I think the gallary suggestion is a good compromise Taprobanus 13:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
There's several things here - so lets get the simple ones out of the way first. That has to do with arguments in favour of the toda pic.
What they dont seem to realize is that, while their "contrast" argument may very well be a 'reasonable' argument in the real world, it is NOT so on wikipedia. In the real world, I could make a case that a rose is more beautiful than a lily and might even be able to bring around a majority to support my view and sense of aesthetics. On wikipedia however, I wouldnt stand a whiff of a chance with such arguments.
That said, the problems here go much deeper. The biggest lie that routinely makes the rounds around these parts is that this is a summary article. Nothing could be farther from the truth. A summary article is one where each section is a summary of a reasonably comprehensive and well written child article. I'd like to see someone show me atleast one section which can reasonably claim to be a summary of a half decent child article. Until we fix that, these problems will continue to sprout. And article expansion will be both a means and an inevitable result of such a 'fix'. So it is high time people stopped acting like the article would blow up with the slightest expansion of the article.
All those waxing eloquent about Toda and tribal culture in general, would do well to go and add some of that info to the Culture of India article. At the moment, that article has ... hold your breath.. 0 bytes dedicated to Todas and Apatanis put together. There is in fact, no mention of tribals at all! If these tribes cant find a place in a child article, they shouldnt find a place in what is claimed to be a summary article. If Bose, who is a million times more notable in the context of the Indian independence movement than the Todas are in the context of culture, has to fight for even so much as a mention in this article, I dont see the Toda pic making it into the article in a million years. For that matter, I'd even argue that since Gandhi, the pacifist face of the IIM is shown, we should also have a pic of Bose, arguably the 'non-pacifist' face of the IIM! counter point and counterpoise folks, counter point and counterpoise!
Each time a newbie tries to add something to this article, he is driven, nay hounded away by the Fowlers and the Saravasks and the Nichalps who jump in with their staple "this is a summary article" nonsense. And since their Toda pic fails because of that very argument, they now want us to buy into their sense of aesthetics. Neat.
I have not only pointed out how cliched the Taj pic is.. but as far as I can remember, I've (along with Arvind) been the only one who's complained of systemic bias on this and other articles. I am all for giving non-mainstream(which often times simply is the "out of sight, out of mind" syndrome at work and not relative merit) things and people more visibility on wikipedia but not like this. You cant throw crumbs in the form of a pic and be done with it. Its condescending. Its almost like saying.. "hey.. this is a summary article.. so the NE(for example) is mostly backward and cant elbow the BSEs and the SEZs out of the economy section.. they pretty much dont fit in any section coz they're either non-"mainstream" or at the bottom rung of everything.... so just to give them some room and just to make sure there's a superficial balance, lets drop some pics and be done" That seems to be what is guiding the addition of pics like the apatani and the toda pic. And that is what I wouldnt allow. The right way to do it would be to start a "Scheduled castes and tribes" subsection of "Demographics" and then write a 4-5 line paragraph about the SC and Ts and then pick a suitable picture like the toda or the apatani one to accompany the subsection. Throwing a pic here and a pic there and claiming to have taken care of systemic bias just doesnt fly. Sarvagnya 01:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I can't see the Toda hut picture be the root cause of this discord and I find it sad that the picture is turning into a battleground. It looks very unique and surely must enrich the article, that is not to say the other pictures don't. I have certainly gotten very curious about Todas from looking at it. We must remember the tribal people are largely voiceless in many parts of the world. I am not sure how true that is within the regions of India. One thing that makes it all the more poignant is that it sounds like there is about a 1000 Toda speakers left which usually implies the culture is heading towards extinction within a few generations. I think Sarvagnya proposes a very reasonable solution, that is to have a section on the tribal people and have a picture accompanying it. Would there be any opposition to that ? Sinhala freedom 04:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
My personal view is that Tagore's image is an excellent choice, but it's given with the caveat that I haven't contributed at all to the article -- Samir 02:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Following are my comments. -- Sundar \ talk \ contribs 05:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I won't have time until the weekend to write in detail, but I've previously listed my thoughts on this Talk page. One of the points I brought up is how Todas are not mentioned in the Tamil Nadu article, which is their home state. I don't see how they can be included into the national-level page unless they at the very least possess notability at the state-level. Also, very few Todas themselves still have traditional Toda dairies; most have modernized, and therefore they themselves are abandoning the style. Many other folk and traditional styles are not being abandoned, so I would suggest focusing on those styles which will continue to stay in use for the foreseeable future. -- Thoreaulylazy 12:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with Priyanth that the photos he lists of the temple or dance forms etc are more representative of Indian culture than the hut of an extreme minority community. For one the temples, dance, food, painting etc suggested form a regular parts of India, and at least as far as I am aware, you dont really get a lot of people going on holiday to India to see a Toda hut, but you do get a lot of people coming to see the Taj, the temples of Khajuraho, Madurai, going to cultural shows watching Kuchipudi, Bharatnatyam etc, and Indian forms a distinct cuisine in itself. I dont see how the Toda is at all representative of Indian culture, and seems to be more a problem of undue weight. That they're the subject of scholarly interest and the picture is a featured picture skirts the issue of wether it deserves a space in a compressed FA article like India. I believe Fowler used a software in an earlier debate regarding the Indian freedom movement to see what aspects are given due prominence and what are not. Surely this can be done again. I believe the Toda image might fit into a section dealing with ethnic groups and not in the culture section. I would say any of the images proposed by Priyanth earlier are more suitable. As for scholarly interest in the Toda people and Social Anthropology, there is also scholarly interests in the Santal people, and a number of other tribes. You cannot say they form a part of mainstream Indian culture, especially of a people whose population is 700-800 out of, what, 1000000000. The appropriate place for the image is in the Toda people article. Rueben lys 11:31, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Like what Priyanth said (and I agreed with) ,pictures from dance forms, Ajanta and Ellora, holi, Muharram, diwali, Bhangra, Vaisakhi, Ladakhi culture, South Indian culture, North Eastern cultural stuff like Bihu Dance, etc are part of mainstream Indian culture (excluding stuff like cricket, films, music etc). I cant see a Toda hut at all being a representative of that Kaleidoscope that forms mainstream Indian culture. Rueben lys 11:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Nichalp's reply seems to lack context and is itself fallacious (quite complicatedly worded) is all I can say. Bharatnatyam is well known all over India, as is Kuchipudi, oriya, Bihu etc etc, and these are well recognised as cultural aspects of the respective areas they come from. Ladakh is well known for its Indo-Tibetan culture. The aspects I mention I give above are integral parts of the Kaleidoscope somebody mentioned earlier. For example,
Have a look at these and tell me again I am making a fallcaious argument and not you in saying there is nothing that can be deemed mainstream Indian. The hut in the image is not at all a representative image of any prominent mainstream or regional Indian culture. If anything, it just proves that there is a tribe alled the Toda people somewhere in India. That's like having a picture of some Nenets people eating raw reindeer meat and drinking blood and saying thats Russian culture for you. Rueben lys 13:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
What the JSTOR articles show is that the Toda people are subject of Social anthropoligcal research, going by the titles on the first page I have listed below:
Anthony R. Walker American Ethnologist > Vol. 18, No. 1 (Feb., 1991), pp. 173-174 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0094-0496%28199102%2918%3A1%3C173%3AAMSTOT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Author(s) of Review: Stephen A. Tyler Reviewed Work(s): The Toda of South India: A New Look by Anthony R. Walker American Ethnologist > Vol. 16, No. 1 (Feb., 1989), p. 175 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0094-0496%28198902%2916%3A1%3C175%3ATTOSIA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-0 Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Author(s) of Review: S. Lourdusamy Reviewed Work(s): The Toda of South India. A New Look by Anthony R. Walker Asian Folklore Studies > Vol. 49, No. 1 (1990), pp. 179-182 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0385-2342%281990%2949%3A1%3C179%3ATTOSIA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Author(s) of Review: David W. McAlpin Reviewed Work(s): Phonology of Toda with Vocabulary by S. Sakthivel A Grammar of the Toda Language by S. Sakthivel Journal of the American Oriental Society > Vol. 101, No. 4 (Oct., 1981), pp. 491-492 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-0279%28198110%2F12%29101%3A4%3C491%3APOTWV%3E2.0.CO%3B2-R Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Man > Vol. 47 (Sep., 1947), pp. 123-124 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0025-1496%28194709%291%3A47%3C123%3A1TTATP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-E Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
C. von Furer-Haimendorf Man > Vol. 54 (Feb., 1954), pp. 28-29 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0025-1496%28195402%291%3A54%3C28%3A2HFAIS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-9 Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
M. B. Emeneau Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society > Vol. 81, No. 1 (May, 1939), pp. 93-106 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-049X%2819390531%2981%3A1%3C93%3ATCT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Reviewed Work(s): Dawn in Toda Land by C. F. Ling Bulletin of the American Geographical Society > Vol. 43, No. 4 (1911), p. 305 Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0190-5929%281911%2943%3A4%3C305%3ADITL%3E2.0.CO%3B2-J Article Information | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation
Similarly, Chola India would give you a detail of mostly History of the Chola Empire. Searching for and Ajanta and Ellora gives you 156 hits, searching for raaga music gives you 2 hits, so going by your argument, India's culture would be expected to be composed of only the Toda heritage. But its not is it? You see where you've lost focus of the argument. You're trying to say that the Toda people are an integral part of India's culture because you can see that they're the subject of a lot of anthropological work, while what you should be looking at is the Toda culture significant in India? has it or does it contribute any significant cultaral feature to the Indian society? You are free to answer that yourself. Rueben lys 18:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
On the subject of the Toda hut pic, it would if you looked through the discussion above and below, and my opening comments. The consensus comment follows from an earlier comment by Sarvagnya archived in 29-31, when he said (in quite different words) that you fowler and Nichalp seem to hold similar views in a number of debates. Rueben lys 23:04, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Who says "anthropological" studies don't belong to culture? Please read Culture. Ultimately, Wikipedia goes by the consensus of reliable sources, not by the consensus of editors, or the consensus of numbers in a population. I am saying that reliable sources in the field of Culture (of India) give at least as much if not more weight to the Toda than they do to Chola Temples. Here, btw, are the search results from the COPAC British Academic and National Library Catalogue: (Keyword: Toda India; 204 returns) (Keywords: Chola Temples India: 79 returns). And here are the results from US Library of Congress On-line Catalog of Books (Keywords: Toda India, 21 returns), (Keywords: Chola Temples India, 22 returns). (Note "Chola Temples" are needed in the keywords to excluded history books that refer to the Cholas.) I'd like to see some real sources from people trying to push the Toda dairy image off the page. Where are they? And please don't produce a Fodor's tourist guide to India as a reference, Rueben lys (or other individual examples). Please don't also go to Amazon or Google Books and do a search on one or two books on culture. No Wikipedia mediation or arbitration committee is going to choose Amazon or Google over the three catalogs I have produced. Remember, Priyanath, a week ago you couldn't stop chuckling at the very idea of the Toda dairy ("grass hut" in your words) being in the culture section of the India page. Well, its time to deliver. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 19:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Find me a single succint article on Indian culture that talks about the Toda culture.
And why is Amazon and Google book searches not acceptable??? A month ago you were championing books over peer reviewed journals and tried to argue those were more reliable sources!!! And as for google booking, I searched Stanley Wolpert's book that you held as a bible barely a month ago. I am forced to conclude your arguments thoroughly lack credability. And why are you not putting your great software to use now to show how mnmany times the Toda people are mentioned in the culture of India, you know, the one that you used to argue that Gandhi was mentioned 132423234545656 times in a book by some professor in some book? If you are willing to argue that the Toda people are more prominent in Indian culture than any of the ones I mentioned earlier, I am going to have to ask you to thoroughly revise your sources on India. Rueben lys 20:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
PS:This is what Culture says on Anthropology
“ | Culture is manifested in music, literature, painting and sculpture, theater and film.[1] Although some people identify culture in terms of consumption and consumer goods (as in high culture, low culture, folk culture, or popular culture)[2], anthropologists understand "culture" to refer not only to consumption goods, but to the general processes which produce such goods and give them meaning, and to the social relationships and practices in which such objects and processes become embedded. For them, culture thus includes technology, art, science, as well as moral systems. | ” |
Which bit of the study of social structure, interaction, christianity as a religion etc etc of the 1000 people have you found convincingly to compose a prominent part of Indian culture??? Rueben lys 20:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
In reviewing the above discussion, I think the main stumbling block seems to be the definition of culture itself. My understanding is that many in the "Against Toda" group (for example,
user:Priyanath,
user:Rueben lys, and
user:Nikkul), tend to interpret "Culture" as "
High art" "
High culture," whereas many in the "For Toda" group thinks of it in broader terms, as expressed in the lead of the WP article
Culture, and, for example, would include
Folk culture and Tribal culture as well. Would editors like
user:Priyanath,
user:Rueben lys,
user:Nikkul and any others please let me know, very briefly, if you include Folk culture and Tribal culture in your definition of Culture (and more specifically, Culture of India). As Nichalp has remarked above, we can't refer to
Culture of India for our definition of culture because that page is in shambles. In an ideal world, we should have firmed up that page first, but we didn't, and until that happens, we can't use that page as a benchmark for including or excluding anything.
Fowler&fowler
«Talk»
10:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, I really dont understand the emphasis of your question, but if it is what I think it is, have a look at the answer below to Dagizza's section. Rueben lys 11:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)