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Is the "Śakuntala" image a representation of Kerala, the home state of its artist? Saravask, who created the rotation template and wrote much of the Kerala FA, clearly didn't think so; otherwise on October 23, he would not have made this revert. In case this is not clear, let me explain: while the summary mistakenly points to the Toda image as an example from Kerala, it implies that it does not regard "Śakuntala" as also representing Kerala; otherwise, a few edits later, Saravask would not have allowed user:Sarvagnya to re-add the Trisoor/Pooram image ( see here).
A week later, on November 1, user:Sarvagnya deleted "Śakuntala." What was his justification? His edit summary says: "one pic per state - rm shakuntala image. the trissur pooram is more typically picture postcard Kerala." The "Śakuntala", however, was there in the rotation template first. (In the straw poll, "Śakuntala" received more votes than Tagore.) Why then did user:Sarvagnya unilaterally add the Trisoor/Pooram image if he thought "Śakuntala" already represented Kerala? And why did he then wait one full week to delete "Śakuntala"? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
This page needs to be archived ASAP. =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
"Indian cuisine is characterized by a wide variety of regional styles and sophisticated use of herbs and spices. The staple foods in the region are rice (especially in the south and the east) and wheat (predominantly in the north)."
I think having two lines to describe the cuisine of india is rediculious. There is so much variation and diversity that we need to mention. The sad thing is that actual dishes that r popular havent even been mentioned. Only four ingredients have been mentioned.
There has been a lot of talk of expanding the culture section and I think this is one example of something that needs to be expanded.
Nikkul 22:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I am opposed to the Ajanta image because:
Proposal:
I would like to suggest replacing the Ajanta Caves image with the Taj Mahal image under the caption: "The Taj Mahal was built in 1648 by the Mughal dynasty" (or something similar) because:
Let me know what you guys think. Nikkul 19:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been saying this for a long time that the Taj image need to be replaced because the world knows about it and there are other hidden architectural marvels that need to be there in this article since the world must know about other Indian architecture and culture. Here is one video from the discovery program. The lost temples of India. The video is about Rajaraja Chola and the temples he built. [3] Chanakyathegreat 11:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Is there a consensus to accept or reject the changes made by BSReddy? WhisperToMe 06:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
wiki details on official langauges of India. Bsreddys 07:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
If you want to seewhat languages areofficial in Andra Pradesh,go to the page that says Andra Pradesh. Dont come here!!!!! <----------- Nikkul... you dont have to me tell me dont come here... mind your words... I am an indian I will come here... who are you to tell me dont come here ???? you get lost from here.... you dont come here ....
Hindi and English are official languages only for the union govt of India... not whole of India. And "scheduled languages" dont mean anything ... 75.36.214.142 17:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
If you want to seewhat languages areofficial in Andra Pradesh,go to the page that says Andra Pradesh. Dont come here!!!!! <----- Dear flower, You have already seen the calibre and potential of Nikkul. If the founder fathers were all like Nikkul this country would have disintegrated long back.
and regarding whispertome, he does not even know what are national langauges of India. He even pasted on my talkpage that hindi and english are national languages of India ... which is not correct and far from truth. A person who knows about india should be moderating this site... my 2 cents ... my 2 rupees ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.214.142 ( talk) 18:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Dear BSReddys: Nikkul is correct and so is WhisperToMe.
> Dear flower, You have already seen the calibre and potential of Nikkul. If the founder fathers were all like Nikkul this country would have disintegrated long back.
and regarding whispertome, he does not even know what are national langauges of India. He even pasted on my talkpage that hindi and english are national languages of India ... which is not correct and far from truth. A person who knows about india should be moderating this site... my 2 cents ... my 2 rupees ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.214.142 ( talk) 18:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Standard Urdu has approximately the twentieth largest population of native speakers, among all languages. It is the national language of Pakistan as well as one of the 23 official languages of India. <======= I got this from one of the wiki reference. So what is urdu ? is it one of the official languages of India?? It makes no sense to just quote the official langauges of the union govt as the official langauges of the whole country. Also India has no national langauges.
As a large and linguistically diverse country, India does not have a single official language. Instead, the Constitution of India envisages a situation where each state has its own official language(s), in addition to the official languages to be used by the Union government. The section of the Constitution of India dealing with official languages therefore includes detailed provisions[1] which deal not just with the languages used for the official purposes of the union,[2] but also with the languages that are to be used for the official purposes of each state and union territory in the country,[3] and the languages that are to be used for communication between the union and the states inter se.[4] 75.36.214.142 20:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
All im saying is that you shouldnt expect to see the official language of Andhra Pradesh listed as the official language of India if India doesnt list that language as official. If you want to see the the official language of AP, then go to the AP page where ull find the official language of AP as said by the govt of AP. Here ull find the official language of India as said by the government. Also, learn to sign your comments. This is an encyclopedia not a gathering of India's forefathers. Nikkul 04:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
BS Reddy, do you have any sources to back up your claim or is it your personal interpretation? =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Based on hindi and english being official langauges for the union government you are trying to extrapolate them to be the official languages of the whole country.
Based on Telugu being in part of the "official languages commission" of India and based on it being the official language of state of telugus with 80 million population I am extrapolating to be one of the official languages of India . Because India is made of union govt and state govts... not just union govt.
And dont tell me not to come here. I am a telugu Indian and I will come here. If at all you guys go and visit hindi prachar sabha site. OK
63.119.227.6 17:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
BS Reddy, we're inviting you to a civilized conversation. Please cite reliable and independent sources that contradict the fact that Hindi and English have been given official status by the Constitution of India as the official language of the Union. The page, may we add, is the article on the Union of India. Unless you can come up with reliable sources to cite your claim, I suggest you stop wasting everbody's time on your personal ideas. =Nichalp «Talk»= 19:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Reddy, it's not worth trying to convince here in wikipedia that the Official languages as announced by the central government of India contains all 24 languages. The official viewpoint of the central government is still very biased in this regard and is not anything secular/equal. [4] [5] The rules favour and gives priority to Hindi and English. No provision is made to make sure that the remaining languages recognized as official languages are given the same status as Hindi and English. If you wish to protest write to the prime minister and various ministers of the central government and other political parties rather than trying to correct it here, because you are wrong. The equality in this regard is still not there. Chanakyathegreat 12:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The demographics subsection says that Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains make up about 98.9% of the population. That leaves 1.1% for the rest. This includes Jews, Zoroastrians, Baha'is, Sarna and others. Later it says that Tribals are 8% of the population, and in the Tribals article it says that Sarna is their majority religion. WTF? 124.185.197.226 05:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
In the Straw Poll for Rotation of Images a majority voted for - For Rotation of Images (with decision on image quality made at WP:PINSPC and with no "Featured Quality" condition on image. But no WP:PINSPC quality procedure has taken place now that 2 weeks are over. Hence, in respect of the the "Consensus poll" I am removing the templates. Continuing with it (ie.without the quality check) is a mockery of the civil discussions which took place on the matter and the people who voted. Hence I am removing it for now. Once the correct procedure is followed we can put the templates back. Knowledge Hegemony 14:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Let us decide on where to discuss the images. I think we need to have all the images on display somewhere on a talkpage and then under each image, there should be a discussion. Do let me know where this is takin palce. Nikkul 21:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This article has been frozen from editing, so I can't do it myself, but can somebody please remove those two (incomplete) English translations of the National Anthem and Song? You can't just take the first line (not even a complete sentence!) of a poem (both the anthem and song of India are composed poems after all), translate that to English and call it the names of the National Anthem or Song. The poems ARE known as "Jana Gana Mana" and "Vande Mataram" respectively, yes, even in English, and it's utterly foolish to just translate the first line and put it out there below the real names of those poems. If English-speaking readers can't understand "Jana Gana Mana" and "Vande Mataram", well, that's just too bad, but that doesn't mean you go around putting in your own little bit of original research into this article and call it the names of the National Anthem and Song of India. In any case, please look at the articles on Pakistan and some other countries with non-English principal languages. Nobody's been translating the first line and putting in their bit of original research in THOSE articles, so why all this love for the India article, huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.2.107 ( talk) 14:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
In Major city Gurgaon need to be add. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurgaon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.42.120 ( talk) 03:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Are we going to discuss the images that make the final cut for culture rotation? I think we should discuss it here since this page is the india page. Also, has the discussion started about each image? and Where? Nikkul 18:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I recently wrote to the Hindu Readers' Editor asking them about their policy regarding errors in their archived online pages. The reply I received included their admission to have erred in a story which was talked about earlier in this talk page. The excerpt from the letter contains the response of the electronic division of the newspaper to the Readers' Editor.
The discussion that he has linked to in wikipedia has to do with the Amba Vilas Palace (the Mysore palace) where one editor has linked to a story in The Hindu ( http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081755371000.htm ) in which we *have* committed an egregious error: The headline says: "Mysore Palace beats Taj Mahal in popularity" while the copy says "Better known as the "Mysore Palace", the Amba Vilas is among the most visited monuments in India and attracts more number of tourists than the Taj Mahal. Well, almost. [...] The number of visitors to the Mysore Palace in 2006 was 25,25,687 and as per the Archaeological Survey of India figures while the figure was 25,39,471 tourists visited the Taj Mahal in Agra. "
Thank you
K. Narayanan The Readers' Editor, The Hindu, Kasturi Buildings, 859 -- 860 Anna Salai, Chennai 600 002 India
-- Not pointy 17:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, Mr. Pointy.. what's your point? If you dont have one, stop bothering us. Your time is perhaps better spent handing out worthless barnstars to your guru. Who else would accept barnstars from you, anyway. Sarvagnya 19:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is'nt this image a part of the image rotation program? Dineshkannambadi 03:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Even other sections such as Business and Polity needs rotation. Business is not just about the stock market. Its also about what drives it. Bangalore is the Technological Centre of India, Hyderabad is not too far behind, Chennai for manufacturing, Goa for Ship building.... Images from these locations should also be displayed. Regarding Polity, Delhi may be the capital and the North Block may be the location where the power centres reside, but these people draw power and support from regional centres. No reason why Bangalore's Vidhana Soudha, Hyderabad's Assembly house just to mention a few, should not appear on a rotation basis. Dineshkannambadi 03:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
You will just have to wait. We need to perfect the way we dorotation. Once we perfect theculture rotation, wecan move on with others. Nikkul 20:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that only Muslim and Hindu architecture was mentioned. For the sake of secularity, for which India is known for centuries, I have added the most popular Jain monuments at Shravanabelagola, recently voted the most popular among India's seven wonders. We also need to address the issue of Buddhist architecture at Sanchi or Bodhgaya. Dineshkannambadi 18:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
We had discussed about Mugal and South Indian architecture. So I added Jain architecture. There is no need to discuss if we should secular in religion. Dineshkannambadi 18:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no mandate not to be secular either. Just our sense of fairness. Dineshkannambadi 19:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
And you are saying Jain architecture is not notable? Dineshkannambadi 19:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to say, but there is no mention of Hindu architecture, which dominates Indian architecture. Second of all, there is no reliable way of saying that "a jain monument was voted as an indian wonder" There was a vote of 100,000+ people for the new 7wonders ofthe world, but even that is not considered valid on wiki, so saying a jain monument was voted best is not a good reason. Second of all, jain monuments are not soooo popular that they need tobe mentioned in a summary of Indian architecture. If ur saying that something needs to be added, it will be mention of Hindu influence in Indian architecture because it is sooooo thorough in India. Nikkul 20:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, wikipedia is not secular (giving all religions equal weight) it is a display of reality on the ground. For example, if youre reporting on Saudi Arabia, you will report mostly on Islam and not on other religions. This is the reality on the ground. In India, most of the country is Hindu. Nikkul 20:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sir, If Indian culture needs to be displayed realistically, without any prejudices, its all the more reason to discuss Hindu, Muslim, Jain and Buddhist architecture. Each have influenced Indian culture and each is inseperable. I have authored a FA on on type of Hindhu architecure, and am in the process of another and I fully realise what I am writing is true. Todays population based on religion counts to and means nothing, if one really wants to justify any topic on "Indian architecture". Dont forget, the oldest known/surving monuments in India are perhaps Jain and Buddhist. Dineshkannambadi 21:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Removed all mention of Muslim art? what does this sentence tell you, such as the Taj Mahal and other examples of Mughal architecture and South Indian architecture in the culture section. Does it seem like greek architecture? Dineshkannambadi 21:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Im sorry, I think you are prioritizing Jainism over anything else. Currently, no religion is mentioned in the text ( I Hope u realize this) If we're going to keep it like that, you are going to have to stop adding stuff about jainism. But if you are going to add religion into the topic, you will have to mention Hinduism before you mention anything else because of its thorough influence on indian architecture. Also, your edit keeps saying that some Jain monument was voted the best in all of India. This is POV and you can not have this. You can not say one is better than the rest cuz thats pov. Nikkul 23:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sir, the above comment you made really shows you dont know much about Indian architecture. Do you? I am not patronizing Jainsim or its architecture. I just understand better its influence on Hindu architecture and vice versa. Some of the earliest Hindu structures worth its mention are from Aihole , Karnataka (5th c). Some of these structures are directly related to Jain Basadi's and Buddhist Chaitya designs from where the designs were derived. Dineshkannambadi 01:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Where can we add images for the culture rotation? Also,where can we discuss images that are currently in the rotation? Nikkul 20:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I had asked several questions about rotation and about adding images to the rotation. I was answered with a link. When I click the link, the only rotation is the flora one. Where is the culture rotation? Where is the vote? Nikkul 18:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Are we now also going to figure out which state has (or has had) the largest number of Sahitya Academy Fellows and list that statistic too on the India page? How about film? The Dadasaheb Phalke Award is the nation's highest award for lifetime achievement in film. Are we going to say that the award has been awarded an equal number of times (ten) to West Bengal and Maharashtra? How about the Sangeet Natak Academi's Ratna Sadasya (Fellow), which the highest honour in the country for dance, music, and drama? Are we going to figure out which state has won the most? Or which of the three fields: dance, music and drama has won the most, and mention that? How about the Bharat Ratna, which according to its Wikipedia page is " India's highest civilian award, awarded for the highest degrees of national service. This service includes artistic, literary, and scientific achievements, ..." That award has unfortunately yet to be bestowed on a literary luminary. It has, however, been awarded for artistic achievement to Satyajit Ray (West Bengal), Ravi Shankar (Uttar Pradesh; WP has incorrectly mentioned West Bengal because of his heritage), M. S. Subbulakshmi (Tamil Nadu), Bismillah Khan (Uttar Pradesh), and Lata Mangeshkar (Maharashtra). So, should we also mention that the award has been awarded an equal number of times (two) to West Bengal and UP? Or, if you don't like regional characterization, should we say that it has been awarded four times for music and once for film? The point I am trying to make is that it is best not to go down the path of mentioning contemporary awards, unless you want a very very long culture section, and there is as yet no consensus for that. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 06:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
?!?!?! You are just seeing one page of the site! There are 40 awardees with 7-8 from each TN, UP and WB!! Knowledge Hegemony 09:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph on literature in the culture section has in the past had a sentence or two on classical literature and a sentence on the modern period (post-1857) which refers only to Tagore. Some users have now added a sentence on contemporary literature which talks about the Jnanapeeth awards to Kannada writers. I am personally against the inclusion of such sentences because it opens up a Pandora's Box of other candidates. Why for example, is a Ghalib, Mir Taqi Mir, or Muhammad Iqbal not included? Why not Kabir or Tulsidas? Why not a Munshi Premchand? Why not a Bankim Chandra Chatterjee? Why not a Subramanya Bharathi? Surely, these writers are more famous than the Kannada awardees? And speaking of more contemporary literature, why is Indo-Anglian literature not included? A G. V. Desani, R. K. Narayan, or Mulk Raj Anand, all published by Penguin 20th Century Classics (not Penguin India or Oxford India), which these Kannada writers are not? (And, yes, Penguin does publish works in translation.) You get the point. The Indian literature paragraph can easily be made very long just trying to accommodate a handful of the most notable writers, which gets nowhere near including these latest luminaries. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Again sir, your viewpoint. If these writers you mention are more notable, how come they did not get a Jnanapith award? Surely, someone should have noticed their greatness? I can name several Kannada writers other than the Jnanapith award winners who are no less than the ones you have listed above. Why only Tamil Sangam. Why not Vachana Sahitya and Haridasa sahitya, two unique literary idioms, not influenced by any other literary tradition, by virtue of which Kannada language has demanded a classical language status. You may delete an earlier statement, but your bias cant be deleted. Dineshkannambadi 15:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The "nation's highest award" is by definition an official award decreed to be such. The Pulitzer Prize is considered to be the most prestigious American honor for literature, and you can say, "it is widely regarded as the highest literary honor in the US" etc., but you can't say it is the "nation's highest literary honor". As simple as that. Is there a Government of India source that says it is the Republic of India's highest literary honour? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 19:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
My Opinion: I support the inclusion of one sentence on Jnanapeeth Award, preferably rephrased heavily. I think it is rather interesting - I never knew about it personally. The fact that it is a trust by TOI makes it notable in context of India. However, I do not support the sentence saying Kannada writers have won it more than anyone else. There is no point to that as it really does not mean anything except for a cool trivia. You can write about the fun little facts of which state has won it most in the article on Jananapeeth Award. Not here. Making a separate note since neither of the above two categories satisfies my pov.-- Blacksun 15:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
IMO, mentioning about Jnanapith and not mentioning Kannada is like mentioning Noble prize for literature in India and not mentioning Tagore. If Kannada cant be mentioned, so should'nt Tagore or Sangam. BTW, No offence meant to either Tagore or Tamil Sangam. I just want to see India represented more inclusively. Dineshkannambadi 15:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
-- Blacksun 10:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
My Opinion Country's highest literary award must have a mention in the culture section, there isn't any doubt about that. Kannada writers have won the maximum number of awards which again is the fact which must have a mention in that section. Gnanapiti 18:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Jnanpith is the nations most coveted award. Dineshkannambadi 18:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the basic problem here is some users who are unwilling to see India from todays perspective, but perhaps still live in the heady days of the Raj. We need to look beyond the Noble prizes and Pulitzer prizes given by foreign offices and committees (which incidently was never given to the most deserving, Mahatma Gandhi) . A link provided by User:KNM succinctly states the problem, that international exposure to literature is provided to only a few languages. Its very important for us to come together and represent the real India. This is the whole purpose of this article. Dineshkannambadi 20:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Small comment: You can't really use a post-1965 award to justify historical significance of any recent writer over writers from pre-1965 times. For example, I hope no one is saying that between Ghalib and a recent Jnanapeeth awardee, the latter is more significant or even as significant as Ghalib. Any section or paragraph on literature needs to focus on the whole continuum rather than bicker about awards and awardees. -- Ragib 21:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I dont think we are tring to say which award is greater or lesser. If a Noble prize is a good enough reason for Tagore to be on the article (with due respects to Tagore), Jnanpith is equally prestegious and justifies Kannada writers to be on the article. Considering that none of us on this thread are wise enough to decide whether Tagore was greater or Kuvempu (and thank fully so), under no circumstance should a foreign award be given more importance than an Indian award. That simple. Dineshkannambadi 21:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Dont threaten me with mediation. Dineshkannambadi 21:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
You are the one with the problem with Jnanpith. So you go for mediation. I will handle it when it comes along. Dineshkannambadi 22:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Hence lets refrain from getting these narrow- minded linguistic and regional trivia on this page. Knowledge Hegemony 07:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This log is ridiculous. Too much edit-warring, particularly recently, so new rules.
Violation of the above conditions will be rewarded by block, and savagely so, until the message sinks in. Moreschi Talk 22:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
There has been plenty discussion on the talk page. There has even been an RfC, initiated by me, (see here for summary]), which specifically addressed the question of adding new material to the India page. The majority view point (by 8 votes to 3) was succinctly summarized by bureaucrat Taxman:
“ | Additional information should go in the subarticles only unless strong consensus is achieved first for the need to add it to the main article. Summaries of thousands of years of history are very difficult to write and that hard work has already been done. While it may be able to be improved, it won't be easy. The least that is fair to do is discuss first before adding anything. Yes, I don't know that there is a better way to get that accross other than very polite edit summaries like "please get consensus on the talk page first". | ” |
This RfC has been repeatedly advertised on this page, yet, editors like user:Sarvagnya and a group of editors ( user:Gnanapiti, user:KNM, and now user:Dineshkannambadi) routinely flaunt it. For example, yesterday user:Dineshkannambadi introduced a major POV addition on the Kannada writers (see here) with no accompanying discussion on the talk page and with casual edit summary, "The Jnanpith is also important and must be mentioned," which turned out to be grossly inaccurate, when compared to what was added: "Contemporary Kannada literature is the most successful in India, with India's highest literary honor, the Jnanpith awards, having been conferred seven times upon Kannada writers, which is the highest for any language in India." When, user:KnowledgeHegemony challenged this edit, it was promptly reverted by the group in a series of reversions that ultimately led to the locking down. The group has in the past been repeatedly taken to RFCU (see here), but has very little history of actually contributing to the India page (see this page, type: India, and then wait a few long seconds.) The major editors of this page: user:Nichalp, user:Fowler&fowler, user:KnowledgeHegemony, user:Ragib, user:Ganeshk, user:Sundar, user:Saravask, user:Abecedare, user:Blacksun have seldom had these problems with each other. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Let me just say first, that Wiki already has a way of dealing with people who arent constructive like User:Dineshkannambadi was yesterday. We dont need another set of religious police watching what we do and threating us with blocks. This is a FREE encyclopedia. No one owns it so I hope no one tries to act like the big kid on the block. Nikkul 18:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Unprotected, no point having that on now. Edit away! Interestingly, looking back through the history, the problems appear to be more uncooperative editing than outright trolling (though there is a bit of that), and an atmosphere where casual reverts are permitted. This isn't in itself absolutely fatal, but it's creating bigger problems (witness the edit-warring from yesterday spilling over to Jnanpith Award). Essentially, I think we need a bit of a culture change, with a little more discussion and less focus on instant reverting. I'm going to try to foster a more cooperative atmosphere (hmm, and I'm prepared to enforce cooperative editing by block. Pleasing paradox, don't you think?). Either way, please enjoy the editing experience senza protection (Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia anyone can edit - except when the page gets protected, when no one can edit at all). Isn't my model preferable? Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 20:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikiraja, whose impressive wiki-resume includes multiple blocks for various things including but not limited to edit warring and socking and adding obscenity, not too long ago filed a RFCU arguing that I, dineshkannambadi, knm, gnanapiti, amar and others were socks.
Needless to say, it got thrown out. Unceremoniously. And guess who he turns for succour? Well our own Mr. 'Uninvolved' Wiki-ssharaf. And what does our benevolent admin tell the troll? He tells him.. "They are not socks. Just a bunch of nuisances...".. and then he offers more words of encouragement lest our troll get disheartened. He says.. "...sit tight for a couple of months and whistle for a wind".
Moreschi clearly harbors bitter and inscrutable prejudice against a lot of users here and ought to step away from this page. He says he doesnt care two hoots for the subject, anyway. Whats even more perplexing is the fact that none of us have ever interacted with him or edited the same pages. And yet, he sees it fit to label us 'nuisances' while at the same time pandering to a rank troll. He is clearly here with an agenda and people here arent idiots not to see through it. Sarvagnya 20:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Please see WP:BLOCK and understand that blocking is not intended as a punitive measure. On other notes, I can only agree with earlier obseervations, ironically, about intellectual dishonesty and edit warring putting off well intended edits, but I will also note that it does,in some cases, it does raise the threshold of acceptable reference material, if not sometimes at the sad abuse of WP:TRUTH and WP:VERIFY. If anything, this article needs a thorough review of WP:OWN, since a number of editors (including myself) have opined in the past that a core group of editors are hogging the article with repeated reverts, edit-warring, trollish abuse, and abusibe mediation threats. The end result has been tha the India article is one of the least informative FA country article I have seen so far. This is what needs to be addressed if the article is to be improved. Taking puitive actions against any editor for having expressed his or her opinion (per WP:TALK) in this talkpage is itself an abuse of admin priviledges and should be considered carefully. Moreover, this is itself unlikely to help improve this article by creating an even worse atmosphere. Please think carefully before making well-intentioned but ill-thought recommenations. Rueben lys 22:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
What are the thoughts of users regarding removing someone's legitimate comments from talk page? User Moreschi recently removed a set of perfectly legitimate arguments by another user regarding their thoughts on his manifesto regarding martial law on India page. Are we not allowed to air our thoughts freely on the talk page even as long as they are petinent to Wikipedia and India article? -- Blacksun 17:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Please, someone reinstate his comments - just not right in the middle of mine. I find that really off-putting, just makes reading the page very difficult. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 19:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There were 11 images in the Image Rotation Template (in the culture section). Those are the images that have been stably rotated for over two weeks and the ones that people are voting on. Why have all these extra images been suddenly added to the vote? I am withdrawing from the vote unless the original 11 are restored. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Im sorry, nothing is permanent on Wiki. You cant expect that that no other image will ever be added and these "stable"iamges will always be there and blah blah blah.
As I have said earlier, all images should be rotatable. Taj does not get special preference (no offence to Shah Jahan and Mumtaz) just because its your pet. Dineshkannambadi 23:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
So basically, to sum up Fowler's concerns, it was the concept of rotation that was being experimented with. There was an agreement that we would discuss the images in the rotation seperately at a later time. This is what we are doing now. Now we are discussing which images will go into the rotation. Nikkul 00:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, Do we look like pigs to you? It is not that hard for humans to picture a photo in the culture section. An image does not need to be in a rotation for two weeks in order for a human to picture what it would look like in the culture section. And no, no one is going to delete the pictures because this is where we discuss which images will go into the rotation and which images will not. You have no power in saying that those 11 images are the only ones that will be voted on because people have been able to "see" them in the culture section. This is where we discuss the images individually. There is no other place where we have discussed the culture images. Second of all, no one is cramming anything down your throat. And you are welcome to add images, no one has placed a restriction on you. Just as long as they relate to indian culture. Nikkul 08:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Also let us make it clear since Fowler has blurred the actual stats of the vote [6]:
So the vote wasnt 11 to 8 Nikkul 09:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I still believe in the utility of the proposal. However, it is a complete mess right now. I think that it needs to start with very strict guidelines and methodology. I propose that we have at most -three- images per slot. I also propose that every thing is fair including Taj image. The guidelines of selection should be same as if there was no rotation. This is bit ambiguous and can be hammered out. I believe that a small and hard cap will allow us to develop this into something more concrete that can be expanded if needed. I also think that we should keep the knitty gritty of specific images to be selected on another talk page as not to swamp this one as is the case right now. -- Blacksun 10:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I hope you all get the point I am trying to make here. Wikipedia is not a democracy. I've been back here 5 days and this is the 3rd or 4th vote I am seeing on this talk page. This is not how things are supposed to be done here. I know you all don't get along with each other. I would suggest that all of you take a nice voluntary break from this article and try editing somewhere else for a week. This article is not going to remain FA in this manner. If you look from the outside, all this bickering really looks silly. It really doesn't matter much if it the culture section has an image of a hut or a mosque or a temple. Nor does it matter if a state has had the most no. of X awards. Do stop before things get uglier. You all are the most productive users left in the Indian project. Please spend your time writing more DYKs, FAs, GAs and doing more copyediting (not that you are not already doing all of this) than spending majority of your time on an already featured article. - Aksi_great ( talk) 08:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Agreed wholeheartedly with Aksi.
The bickering/voting/rotation thing seen above is totally to appease different *editors* , rather than focused on the *readers*. The idea of rotation is ridiculous ... and a daily rotation is even more so. People won't be coming back daily to this article to see *today's rotated image*, rather readers would most likely come to the article once to get the information they need. If an image is good, have it in the article. If it isn't, then don't have it here. An unstable article is NOT worthy of being a featured article ... and with the ridiculous vote seen above, this article is becoming unstable day by day.
Also, Wikipedia isn't a democracy, and things are decided by consensus and policies rather than numeric superiority. -- Ragib 09:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The problem, Ragib, is that there are many good images that are relevant completely. So how do you propose we show all of India's culture in two single images? Nikkul 09:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I did searches in four standard databases for secondary academic sources: (1) Catalogue of Major Academic and National Libraries in the UK and Ireland, 2) US Library of Congress On Line Catalog, 3) The JSTOR catalog of journal articles, 4) Google Scholar Advanced Search, as well as 5) Google Advances Search for University Sites (site:edu). (The last search was undertaken simply to gauge popularity in university settings.)
The Urdu poet Ghalib alone had more references and citations than all seven Kannada winners of the Jnanpith Award put together (in each of the five databases). Iqbal has many more. That late 19th and early 20th century Urdu Poetry is not mentioned in the culture section, but Kannada writers are, is therefore not borne out by the sources. Arranged below are the statistics: the five numbers following each writer represents the number of references that showed up in each database in guided (boolean) searches like "Kuvempu <and> Kannada" or "Kuvempu <and> Kannada Literature" or "Puttappa <and> Kannada" in the Keywords of the book or article description. The method was uses for all searches.
Those two representatives alone of late 19th and early 20th century Urdu poetry, is each more notable (in these databases) than all seven Kannada writers put together. And Urdu poetry has many many more poets ... The point I am making it that this gratuitous reference to the Kannada writers needs to be removed, unless one wants to accommodate the more notable writers first, and that would make the culture section very very long.
I know my interlocutors will try and pooh-pooh this data. "One of Fowler's inane exercises," they will say. But this is serious. These writers are simply not notable enough (per secondary sources) in contrast to a Ghalib or an Iqbal, and there is no reason why Wikipedia should give them that notability. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 11:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I have geone ahead and remove a sentence extolling Tagore's Geetanjali in Bengali. It gives a sense of giving importnance to only one vernacular literature which is not faire. It deserves to be be in the article Indian literature. Dineshkannambadi 16:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Fowler doesnt know the first thing about notability. He keeps bringing up this 'relative' notability nonsense every second day. Currency in secondary sources was only meant to be used to establish 'notability' - not 'relative' notability. Arguing that X is "more notable" than Y because X returns n times more hits is almost juvenile. By that logic, we wouldnt go much further than film stars an sportsmen on any article. For that matter, I'd wager a Debashish mohanty or a dhoni would win hands down against say, a Dhanraj Pillay or perhaps, a P T Usha. But we know better. Dont we? By Fowler's logic, William Shakespeare will perhaps end up as more notable than all Indian writers put together. Heck, even a Sidney Sheldon or a 'Harry Potter' would beat us hands down. By his logic, an Iqbal can take on two Ghalibs! LOL.
Ludicruous as comparing Ghalib and Bendre/Kuvempu is, do I need to point out that Urdu draws from a 55 crore pool while Kannada has all of say, 5 crores... and by that logic, Hindi should have had what? 50 jnanpiths by now.. but it only has 6.. one less than Kannada. Hindi's 6 is certainly "more notable" than Kannada's 7 eh?
Anyway, thats not the point. The point is Fowler repeatedly dumping his fallacious and specious arguments on this talk page even after it has been countered and discarded over and over and over again over many months now. If it is not trolling and disruption, I want to know what it is.
Having said that, the line about Jnanpiths was admittedly unwieldy. But all that it required was for us to explore ways of stitching it in better... not the willy nilly reverting that Fowler indulges in and has indulged in for over a year now. Sarvagnya 18:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi! This post by sarvagnya speaks some good issues. Yes, the systemic bias is there all over the wikipedia.
First, the festivals. If you ask about festival in India, it is deepawali and eid (not Ganeesh Chaturthi, which is regional). Indeed, the festival paragraph can be written as follows: "Many of the Indian festivals are religious in origin, although several are celebrated irrespective of caste and creed. There are a few pan-Indian festivals such Deepavali and the two eids. Multitude of other festivals are celebrated according to regional demographics, such as Holi, Onam, Vijayadashami, Bihu, Durga puja, Christmas, Ugadi, Sankranti, Buddha Jayanti and Vaisakhi.'
Next, architecture—personally I am naive in this topic. I don't know if there are such architectural traditions as Hindu architecture, Jain architecture etc. The present link South Indian architecture takes you to an article which describes all the styles, such as Chola, Vijaynagara, Chalukya, Rashtrakuta etc. No nobody thinks about the Toda architecture when Indian architecture comes into mind.
Literature—Ancient literaures in Sanskrit (pan-Indian) and Tamil (south of Bindhya) covered. In contemporary literature, only the most famous and Nobel-winning person, and the author of the national anthem is mentioned. It stops here for the sake of brevity, there is the indian literature article for the interested person. Nobel is an internationally-recognized award and much more important any Jnanpith or Sahitya Academy award (with due respect to all the awardees). Jnanpith, Bharatratna, Phalke recipients should not be mentioned because then article will blow up in size. However, naming that Jnanpith is highest in literature in India, Phalke in cinema, Bharatratna highest civilian award may be incorporated (just the names of the awards). Any more suggestion to include in the literature paragraph? It includes epics (mahabharat), Kalidas, Sangam, and, Tagore among the contemporaries. May be a general sentence like, "Individual Indian languages have own set of authors who won several national and international awards, for writing in their vernacular as well as English" ? (Sounds very lame, though).
I am not mentioning the chicken-episode because I am not aware of what happened.
Regarding your complain of North Indian bias, to me it's not there (I am not exactly a North Indian). In culture section, I see classic dance forms, folk art forms are represented from all iver India, no North-South-East-west divide.
Better, we could invite some non-Indian wikipedians to have a look, and see their reaction if they think the article over-emphasizes north Indian aspects as opposed to South Indian. Comments? Regards.-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 20:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Here are the responses to your points:
1) The original references were the two books of K. T. Achya.
They are sitting in my shelves, and I am happy to quote from them: Reference 1. (p.18) (entry) "The Harappans knew the domestic fowl, but its remains are few, and it is not depicted on any seals. Even though domestication may have occurred outside the orbit of Harappan civilization, perhaps in the Gangetic Valley (citation provided here), the Indian jungle fowl Gallus gallus is considered to have been the progenitor of all domestic poultry in the world."
This has been the commonly held belief for some time (based on historical and (scanty) archaeological evidence.) For example, Stanley Wolpert's book, India begins with, "All of us, who wear cotton cloth, use the decimal system, enjoy the taste of chicken, play chess or roll dice, and seek peace of mind or tranquility through meditation, are indebted to India." (Cotton is also (or at least was also) commonly thought to have been first cultivated in India, and more importantly, cotton cloth first thought to have been woven there.) With advances in ecological genetics in the 1990s, the same questions began to be tackled by geneticists. The first such attempts for chicken, which got some publicity, and made their way into popular books, traced the origin to Thailand. And this is what was found by user:Amarrg in his popular references, which I referred to above as "out-of-date." Out-of-date, because, that phylogenetic evidence was soon improved and the domestic chicken is now considered to have "multiple maternal origins" (i.e. multiple centers of origin, based on mitochondrial DNA markers, which are inherited through the mother.) The current thinking is that although it may have been domesticated independently in China, Southeast Asia, and the Indian subcontinent, the one that spread to the rest of the world (Americas, Africa, Europe, Middle East) is the domesticated Gallus gallus of the Indian subcontinent. And this is basically what the references I provide in the link say.
No, I didn't change anything. I provided the updated DNA references in my exchange with user:Amarrg including the references to the multiple maternal origin, and main diffusion from South Asia, but you all seemed too busy celebrating what you thought was your coup to pay attention. The references have been on the link page at least since early November. (See the history of that page.)
3) "Man" was not eating chicken before it spread from South Asia to the rest of the western world. Humans likely were eating wild birds, but they weren't chicken. In other words, in (say) 2500 BC, in Africa, there was no chicken. There may have been wild fowls, pheasants, wild ducks, turkeys, ..., but no chicken. There obviously was something to the taste of the Indian jungle fowl Gallus gallus, otherwise its domination today in poultry wouldn't be so total. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmmmm... I see many these arguments centers around Fowler's way of editing, almost owning the article, and huge amount of talks in this talk page.
I was one of the guys who tried for incorporation of Bose (and the revolutionaries in general). Yes, the talks was really tiresome. And, indeed, I lack such huge number of references. So what I did? I had to admit that, with the present resources and the size of teh article, Bose cannot be incorporated. Indeed, later on, Fowler started building a user subpage on Indian independence movement.
Now, was I irritated by Fowler's continuous citing sources and loads of talks? Yes I was, quite a lot. But finally I admitted to myself that yes, Bose, in the present status of the article, cannot be mentioned. Because although his talks are full of eye-soring references, and staffs like that, usually he talks sense.
Regarding the North-South bias etc, I am not accusing you are the person who is bringing that. Rather, maybe you are the person who is helping remove the bias, along with others. But, apparently, the edits done by the you et al seem that the edits are being done for a particular purpose, to highlight Kannada language or to highlight something. And this has led to an apparent idea that most of the edits by the group will be unacceptable PoV. Indeed, at some times, they are. The way a prolific editor like Dinesh removed the Tagore Nobel bit today, in probable retaliation to my removal of Kannada literature's Jnanpith winnings, (mentioning in the edit note, that Tagore was overemphasizing Bengali literature) goes on to show the unfortunate blindness.
However, we've seen how brilliant contributor Dinesh, amar, KNM and you are, in several articles, including loads of DYKs and FAs. So why erratic behaviour here? Probably, you felt your state/language was less represented here, and tried to bring a balance, and in the process infused some over-statements. And this going over board is provincialism. I am saying it on the face here.
Yes, in the past, there may have been unfortunate and unethical ill-treatment of some parts of India in the article, and thanks to the excellent works of all the people involved, the article is still in good shape. We thank you for that.
I am talking about the present status of the article. Show me a biased opinion, and fix it. If it is a clear bias, no body will revert your edit. If you want to add something new, discuss it here, and if appropriate, add it. You are a much more regular editor in India article than I am, so you know the rule better than I do. Please keep the provincial sentiments away. You can still do a lot for Karnataka and India(which you are, indeed, doing in WP:KARNATAKA and WP:IND). Everyone loves his/her mother tongue/state/region. Going overboard has caused so many unfortunate incidences in real life, let the virtual world be free of that.
Sorry for being so harsh, but please be contemplative. You have to admit that in contemporary literature Kannada, Hindi, Bengali, Tamil, or whatever language—does not deserve seperate mention in India article. Tagore deserves for his own reasons. -- Dwaipayan ( talk) 00:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
As I have mentioned Awards and honours section above, the Jnanpith Award is not India's highest literary honour. The expressions "highest civilian honour," (Bharat Ratna) "highest military honour," (Param Vir Chakra) are all used for awards handed out by the government of the day (and the rank "highest" is decided by that government). The Jnanpith, instituted in 1965, is an award handed out by a private organization. To be sure, it is very prestigious and you could say something like "widely considered the most prestigious literary award in India" (and provide citations), but you cannot use "highest." If there is an award that would qualify for this, it would be the election to a Sahitya Academy Fellows. Indeed, in the section above, I have provided examples of exactly such usage. The Jnanpith Award page itself, by including a lead sentence, "The Jnanpith Award is the highest literary honour conferred in the Republic of India," – which refers to the country by its official name – and by continuing to flagrantly display the Indian honours and decoration template, further confounds the confusion between a nation's award and an award in the nation. All the other awards mentioned in that template are official awards of the Republic of India, which the Jnanpith Award is not. Its inclusion in that template is the equivalent of including the Booker Prize or the Whitbread Prize on the same template with the Victoria Cross, if such a template were made for Britain.
More importantly, there are other awards, like the Dadasaheb Phalke Award, the nation's highest award for lifetime achievement in film, or the Sangeet Natak Academi's Ratna Sadasya (Fellow) in dance, music, and drama. Those have not been mentioned anywhere in the culture section. Indeed the Bharat Ratna is not mentioned anywhere on the India page. Why then the Jnanpith? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
If were still talking about the edit that said Kannada writers won more awards than any other language. i Am totally opposed to that. If you say kanada writers are better than any other language's youre going to spark regional competition and split the whole article regionally. Dont try it cuz itll get rvd. Nikkul 07:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Although I am taking a break from editing both the main article and this talk page, I thought this is important enough to bring to people's notice.
Apparently, yesterday, this article was nominated for a Featured Article Removal review (please see here), which lasted 13 hours and 18 minutes. In the future, would the editor(s) who nominate the article for a review ( Kaypoh ( talk · contribs)) and those who participate in it, kindly announce its existence in a post here (or perhaps on the India bulletin board). I know that there is no Wikipedia requirement that this be done, but it is a courtesy that would greatly help, since the presence of an additional (mysterious) icon at the top of a talk page might go by unnoticed. Thanks very much and regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The Trial period of the Rotation is over. It is now time to vote on images that will go into the rotation. Let us comment on images one by one. Please comment in the comment section only:
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This image seems really dull. Maybe its because I got a new computer and all the images looked dull on my old computer. But I feel like the image used to be more appealing before. For example, the grass seemed more green before and the Hut seemed like a more interesting brown color. Any comments? Nikkul 01:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, I hope you realize that rural is different from tribal. yes 67 percent is rural, but that doesnt mean 67 percent live in Toda Huts! Your argument is misleading. -- Nikkul ( talk) 20:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | → | Archive 25 |
Is the "Śakuntala" image a representation of Kerala, the home state of its artist? Saravask, who created the rotation template and wrote much of the Kerala FA, clearly didn't think so; otherwise on October 23, he would not have made this revert. In case this is not clear, let me explain: while the summary mistakenly points to the Toda image as an example from Kerala, it implies that it does not regard "Śakuntala" as also representing Kerala; otherwise, a few edits later, Saravask would not have allowed user:Sarvagnya to re-add the Trisoor/Pooram image ( see here).
A week later, on November 1, user:Sarvagnya deleted "Śakuntala." What was his justification? His edit summary says: "one pic per state - rm shakuntala image. the trissur pooram is more typically picture postcard Kerala." The "Śakuntala", however, was there in the rotation template first. (In the straw poll, "Śakuntala" received more votes than Tagore.) Why then did user:Sarvagnya unilaterally add the Trisoor/Pooram image if he thought "Śakuntala" already represented Kerala? And why did he then wait one full week to delete "Śakuntala"? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
This page needs to be archived ASAP. =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
"Indian cuisine is characterized by a wide variety of regional styles and sophisticated use of herbs and spices. The staple foods in the region are rice (especially in the south and the east) and wheat (predominantly in the north)."
I think having two lines to describe the cuisine of india is rediculious. There is so much variation and diversity that we need to mention. The sad thing is that actual dishes that r popular havent even been mentioned. Only four ingredients have been mentioned.
There has been a lot of talk of expanding the culture section and I think this is one example of something that needs to be expanded.
Nikkul 22:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I am opposed to the Ajanta image because:
Proposal:
I would like to suggest replacing the Ajanta Caves image with the Taj Mahal image under the caption: "The Taj Mahal was built in 1648 by the Mughal dynasty" (or something similar) because:
Let me know what you guys think. Nikkul 19:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I have been saying this for a long time that the Taj image need to be replaced because the world knows about it and there are other hidden architectural marvels that need to be there in this article since the world must know about other Indian architecture and culture. Here is one video from the discovery program. The lost temples of India. The video is about Rajaraja Chola and the temples he built. [3] Chanakyathegreat 11:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Is there a consensus to accept or reject the changes made by BSReddy? WhisperToMe 06:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
wiki details on official langauges of India. Bsreddys 07:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
If you want to seewhat languages areofficial in Andra Pradesh,go to the page that says Andra Pradesh. Dont come here!!!!! <----------- Nikkul... you dont have to me tell me dont come here... mind your words... I am an indian I will come here... who are you to tell me dont come here ???? you get lost from here.... you dont come here ....
Hindi and English are official languages only for the union govt of India... not whole of India. And "scheduled languages" dont mean anything ... 75.36.214.142 17:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
If you want to seewhat languages areofficial in Andra Pradesh,go to the page that says Andra Pradesh. Dont come here!!!!! <----- Dear flower, You have already seen the calibre and potential of Nikkul. If the founder fathers were all like Nikkul this country would have disintegrated long back.
and regarding whispertome, he does not even know what are national langauges of India. He even pasted on my talkpage that hindi and english are national languages of India ... which is not correct and far from truth. A person who knows about india should be moderating this site... my 2 cents ... my 2 rupees ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.214.142 ( talk) 18:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Dear BSReddys: Nikkul is correct and so is WhisperToMe.
> Dear flower, You have already seen the calibre and potential of Nikkul. If the founder fathers were all like Nikkul this country would have disintegrated long back.
and regarding whispertome, he does not even know what are national langauges of India. He even pasted on my talkpage that hindi and english are national languages of India ... which is not correct and far from truth. A person who knows about india should be moderating this site... my 2 cents ... my 2 rupees ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.214.142 ( talk) 18:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Standard Urdu has approximately the twentieth largest population of native speakers, among all languages. It is the national language of Pakistan as well as one of the 23 official languages of India. <======= I got this from one of the wiki reference. So what is urdu ? is it one of the official languages of India?? It makes no sense to just quote the official langauges of the union govt as the official langauges of the whole country. Also India has no national langauges.
As a large and linguistically diverse country, India does not have a single official language. Instead, the Constitution of India envisages a situation where each state has its own official language(s), in addition to the official languages to be used by the Union government. The section of the Constitution of India dealing with official languages therefore includes detailed provisions[1] which deal not just with the languages used for the official purposes of the union,[2] but also with the languages that are to be used for the official purposes of each state and union territory in the country,[3] and the languages that are to be used for communication between the union and the states inter se.[4] 75.36.214.142 20:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
All im saying is that you shouldnt expect to see the official language of Andhra Pradesh listed as the official language of India if India doesnt list that language as official. If you want to see the the official language of AP, then go to the AP page where ull find the official language of AP as said by the govt of AP. Here ull find the official language of India as said by the government. Also, learn to sign your comments. This is an encyclopedia not a gathering of India's forefathers. Nikkul 04:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
BS Reddy, do you have any sources to back up your claim or is it your personal interpretation? =Nichalp «Talk»= 15:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Based on hindi and english being official langauges for the union government you are trying to extrapolate them to be the official languages of the whole country.
Based on Telugu being in part of the "official languages commission" of India and based on it being the official language of state of telugus with 80 million population I am extrapolating to be one of the official languages of India . Because India is made of union govt and state govts... not just union govt.
And dont tell me not to come here. I am a telugu Indian and I will come here. If at all you guys go and visit hindi prachar sabha site. OK
63.119.227.6 17:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
BS Reddy, we're inviting you to a civilized conversation. Please cite reliable and independent sources that contradict the fact that Hindi and English have been given official status by the Constitution of India as the official language of the Union. The page, may we add, is the article on the Union of India. Unless you can come up with reliable sources to cite your claim, I suggest you stop wasting everbody's time on your personal ideas. =Nichalp «Talk»= 19:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Reddy, it's not worth trying to convince here in wikipedia that the Official languages as announced by the central government of India contains all 24 languages. The official viewpoint of the central government is still very biased in this regard and is not anything secular/equal. [4] [5] The rules favour and gives priority to Hindi and English. No provision is made to make sure that the remaining languages recognized as official languages are given the same status as Hindi and English. If you wish to protest write to the prime minister and various ministers of the central government and other political parties rather than trying to correct it here, because you are wrong. The equality in this regard is still not there. Chanakyathegreat 12:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The demographics subsection says that Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains make up about 98.9% of the population. That leaves 1.1% for the rest. This includes Jews, Zoroastrians, Baha'is, Sarna and others. Later it says that Tribals are 8% of the population, and in the Tribals article it says that Sarna is their majority religion. WTF? 124.185.197.226 05:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
In the Straw Poll for Rotation of Images a majority voted for - For Rotation of Images (with decision on image quality made at WP:PINSPC and with no "Featured Quality" condition on image. But no WP:PINSPC quality procedure has taken place now that 2 weeks are over. Hence, in respect of the the "Consensus poll" I am removing the templates. Continuing with it (ie.without the quality check) is a mockery of the civil discussions which took place on the matter and the people who voted. Hence I am removing it for now. Once the correct procedure is followed we can put the templates back. Knowledge Hegemony 14:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Let us decide on where to discuss the images. I think we need to have all the images on display somewhere on a talkpage and then under each image, there should be a discussion. Do let me know where this is takin palce. Nikkul 21:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
This article has been frozen from editing, so I can't do it myself, but can somebody please remove those two (incomplete) English translations of the National Anthem and Song? You can't just take the first line (not even a complete sentence!) of a poem (both the anthem and song of India are composed poems after all), translate that to English and call it the names of the National Anthem or Song. The poems ARE known as "Jana Gana Mana" and "Vande Mataram" respectively, yes, even in English, and it's utterly foolish to just translate the first line and put it out there below the real names of those poems. If English-speaking readers can't understand "Jana Gana Mana" and "Vande Mataram", well, that's just too bad, but that doesn't mean you go around putting in your own little bit of original research into this article and call it the names of the National Anthem and Song of India. In any case, please look at the articles on Pakistan and some other countries with non-English principal languages. Nobody's been translating the first line and putting in their bit of original research in THOSE articles, so why all this love for the India article, huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.2.107 ( talk) 14:09, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
In Major city Gurgaon need to be add. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurgaon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.161.42.120 ( talk) 03:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Are we going to discuss the images that make the final cut for culture rotation? I think we should discuss it here since this page is the india page. Also, has the discussion started about each image? and Where? Nikkul 18:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I recently wrote to the Hindu Readers' Editor asking them about their policy regarding errors in their archived online pages. The reply I received included their admission to have erred in a story which was talked about earlier in this talk page. The excerpt from the letter contains the response of the electronic division of the newspaper to the Readers' Editor.
The discussion that he has linked to in wikipedia has to do with the Amba Vilas Palace (the Mysore palace) where one editor has linked to a story in The Hindu ( http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/17/stories/2007081755371000.htm ) in which we *have* committed an egregious error: The headline says: "Mysore Palace beats Taj Mahal in popularity" while the copy says "Better known as the "Mysore Palace", the Amba Vilas is among the most visited monuments in India and attracts more number of tourists than the Taj Mahal. Well, almost. [...] The number of visitors to the Mysore Palace in 2006 was 25,25,687 and as per the Archaeological Survey of India figures while the figure was 25,39,471 tourists visited the Taj Mahal in Agra. "
Thank you
K. Narayanan The Readers' Editor, The Hindu, Kasturi Buildings, 859 -- 860 Anna Salai, Chennai 600 002 India
-- Not pointy 17:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, Mr. Pointy.. what's your point? If you dont have one, stop bothering us. Your time is perhaps better spent handing out worthless barnstars to your guru. Who else would accept barnstars from you, anyway. Sarvagnya 19:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is'nt this image a part of the image rotation program? Dineshkannambadi 03:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Even other sections such as Business and Polity needs rotation. Business is not just about the stock market. Its also about what drives it. Bangalore is the Technological Centre of India, Hyderabad is not too far behind, Chennai for manufacturing, Goa for Ship building.... Images from these locations should also be displayed. Regarding Polity, Delhi may be the capital and the North Block may be the location where the power centres reside, but these people draw power and support from regional centres. No reason why Bangalore's Vidhana Soudha, Hyderabad's Assembly house just to mention a few, should not appear on a rotation basis. Dineshkannambadi 03:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
You will just have to wait. We need to perfect the way we dorotation. Once we perfect theculture rotation, wecan move on with others. Nikkul 20:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that only Muslim and Hindu architecture was mentioned. For the sake of secularity, for which India is known for centuries, I have added the most popular Jain monuments at Shravanabelagola, recently voted the most popular among India's seven wonders. We also need to address the issue of Buddhist architecture at Sanchi or Bodhgaya. Dineshkannambadi 18:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
We had discussed about Mugal and South Indian architecture. So I added Jain architecture. There is no need to discuss if we should secular in religion. Dineshkannambadi 18:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
There is no mandate not to be secular either. Just our sense of fairness. Dineshkannambadi 19:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
And you are saying Jain architecture is not notable? Dineshkannambadi 19:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry to say, but there is no mention of Hindu architecture, which dominates Indian architecture. Second of all, there is no reliable way of saying that "a jain monument was voted as an indian wonder" There was a vote of 100,000+ people for the new 7wonders ofthe world, but even that is not considered valid on wiki, so saying a jain monument was voted best is not a good reason. Second of all, jain monuments are not soooo popular that they need tobe mentioned in a summary of Indian architecture. If ur saying that something needs to be added, it will be mention of Hindu influence in Indian architecture because it is sooooo thorough in India. Nikkul 20:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Also, wikipedia is not secular (giving all religions equal weight) it is a display of reality on the ground. For example, if youre reporting on Saudi Arabia, you will report mostly on Islam and not on other religions. This is the reality on the ground. In India, most of the country is Hindu. Nikkul 20:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sir, If Indian culture needs to be displayed realistically, without any prejudices, its all the more reason to discuss Hindu, Muslim, Jain and Buddhist architecture. Each have influenced Indian culture and each is inseperable. I have authored a FA on on type of Hindhu architecure, and am in the process of another and I fully realise what I am writing is true. Todays population based on religion counts to and means nothing, if one really wants to justify any topic on "Indian architecture". Dont forget, the oldest known/surving monuments in India are perhaps Jain and Buddhist. Dineshkannambadi 21:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Removed all mention of Muslim art? what does this sentence tell you, such as the Taj Mahal and other examples of Mughal architecture and South Indian architecture in the culture section. Does it seem like greek architecture? Dineshkannambadi 21:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Im sorry, I think you are prioritizing Jainism over anything else. Currently, no religion is mentioned in the text ( I Hope u realize this) If we're going to keep it like that, you are going to have to stop adding stuff about jainism. But if you are going to add religion into the topic, you will have to mention Hinduism before you mention anything else because of its thorough influence on indian architecture. Also, your edit keeps saying that some Jain monument was voted the best in all of India. This is POV and you can not have this. You can not say one is better than the rest cuz thats pov. Nikkul 23:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sir, the above comment you made really shows you dont know much about Indian architecture. Do you? I am not patronizing Jainsim or its architecture. I just understand better its influence on Hindu architecture and vice versa. Some of the earliest Hindu structures worth its mention are from Aihole , Karnataka (5th c). Some of these structures are directly related to Jain Basadi's and Buddhist Chaitya designs from where the designs were derived. Dineshkannambadi 01:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Where can we add images for the culture rotation? Also,where can we discuss images that are currently in the rotation? Nikkul 20:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I had asked several questions about rotation and about adding images to the rotation. I was answered with a link. When I click the link, the only rotation is the flora one. Where is the culture rotation? Where is the vote? Nikkul 18:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Are we now also going to figure out which state has (or has had) the largest number of Sahitya Academy Fellows and list that statistic too on the India page? How about film? The Dadasaheb Phalke Award is the nation's highest award for lifetime achievement in film. Are we going to say that the award has been awarded an equal number of times (ten) to West Bengal and Maharashtra? How about the Sangeet Natak Academi's Ratna Sadasya (Fellow), which the highest honour in the country for dance, music, and drama? Are we going to figure out which state has won the most? Or which of the three fields: dance, music and drama has won the most, and mention that? How about the Bharat Ratna, which according to its Wikipedia page is " India's highest civilian award, awarded for the highest degrees of national service. This service includes artistic, literary, and scientific achievements, ..." That award has unfortunately yet to be bestowed on a literary luminary. It has, however, been awarded for artistic achievement to Satyajit Ray (West Bengal), Ravi Shankar (Uttar Pradesh; WP has incorrectly mentioned West Bengal because of his heritage), M. S. Subbulakshmi (Tamil Nadu), Bismillah Khan (Uttar Pradesh), and Lata Mangeshkar (Maharashtra). So, should we also mention that the award has been awarded an equal number of times (two) to West Bengal and UP? Or, if you don't like regional characterization, should we say that it has been awarded four times for music and once for film? The point I am trying to make is that it is best not to go down the path of mentioning contemporary awards, unless you want a very very long culture section, and there is as yet no consensus for that. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 06:27, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
?!?!?! You are just seeing one page of the site! There are 40 awardees with 7-8 from each TN, UP and WB!! Knowledge Hegemony 09:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph on literature in the culture section has in the past had a sentence or two on classical literature and a sentence on the modern period (post-1857) which refers only to Tagore. Some users have now added a sentence on contemporary literature which talks about the Jnanapeeth awards to Kannada writers. I am personally against the inclusion of such sentences because it opens up a Pandora's Box of other candidates. Why for example, is a Ghalib, Mir Taqi Mir, or Muhammad Iqbal not included? Why not Kabir or Tulsidas? Why not a Munshi Premchand? Why not a Bankim Chandra Chatterjee? Why not a Subramanya Bharathi? Surely, these writers are more famous than the Kannada awardees? And speaking of more contemporary literature, why is Indo-Anglian literature not included? A G. V. Desani, R. K. Narayan, or Mulk Raj Anand, all published by Penguin 20th Century Classics (not Penguin India or Oxford India), which these Kannada writers are not? (And, yes, Penguin does publish works in translation.) You get the point. The Indian literature paragraph can easily be made very long just trying to accommodate a handful of the most notable writers, which gets nowhere near including these latest luminaries. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Again sir, your viewpoint. If these writers you mention are more notable, how come they did not get a Jnanapith award? Surely, someone should have noticed their greatness? I can name several Kannada writers other than the Jnanapith award winners who are no less than the ones you have listed above. Why only Tamil Sangam. Why not Vachana Sahitya and Haridasa sahitya, two unique literary idioms, not influenced by any other literary tradition, by virtue of which Kannada language has demanded a classical language status. You may delete an earlier statement, but your bias cant be deleted. Dineshkannambadi 15:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
The "nation's highest award" is by definition an official award decreed to be such. The Pulitzer Prize is considered to be the most prestigious American honor for literature, and you can say, "it is widely regarded as the highest literary honor in the US" etc., but you can't say it is the "nation's highest literary honor". As simple as that. Is there a Government of India source that says it is the Republic of India's highest literary honour? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 19:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
My Opinion: I support the inclusion of one sentence on Jnanapeeth Award, preferably rephrased heavily. I think it is rather interesting - I never knew about it personally. The fact that it is a trust by TOI makes it notable in context of India. However, I do not support the sentence saying Kannada writers have won it more than anyone else. There is no point to that as it really does not mean anything except for a cool trivia. You can write about the fun little facts of which state has won it most in the article on Jananapeeth Award. Not here. Making a separate note since neither of the above two categories satisfies my pov.-- Blacksun 15:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
IMO, mentioning about Jnanapith and not mentioning Kannada is like mentioning Noble prize for literature in India and not mentioning Tagore. If Kannada cant be mentioned, so should'nt Tagore or Sangam. BTW, No offence meant to either Tagore or Tamil Sangam. I just want to see India represented more inclusively. Dineshkannambadi 15:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
-- Blacksun 10:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
My Opinion Country's highest literary award must have a mention in the culture section, there isn't any doubt about that. Kannada writers have won the maximum number of awards which again is the fact which must have a mention in that section. Gnanapiti 18:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Jnanpith is the nations most coveted award. Dineshkannambadi 18:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I think the basic problem here is some users who are unwilling to see India from todays perspective, but perhaps still live in the heady days of the Raj. We need to look beyond the Noble prizes and Pulitzer prizes given by foreign offices and committees (which incidently was never given to the most deserving, Mahatma Gandhi) . A link provided by User:KNM succinctly states the problem, that international exposure to literature is provided to only a few languages. Its very important for us to come together and represent the real India. This is the whole purpose of this article. Dineshkannambadi 20:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Small comment: You can't really use a post-1965 award to justify historical significance of any recent writer over writers from pre-1965 times. For example, I hope no one is saying that between Ghalib and a recent Jnanapeeth awardee, the latter is more significant or even as significant as Ghalib. Any section or paragraph on literature needs to focus on the whole continuum rather than bicker about awards and awardees. -- Ragib 21:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I dont think we are tring to say which award is greater or lesser. If a Noble prize is a good enough reason for Tagore to be on the article (with due respects to Tagore), Jnanpith is equally prestegious and justifies Kannada writers to be on the article. Considering that none of us on this thread are wise enough to decide whether Tagore was greater or Kuvempu (and thank fully so), under no circumstance should a foreign award be given more importance than an Indian award. That simple. Dineshkannambadi 21:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Dont threaten me with mediation. Dineshkannambadi 21:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
You are the one with the problem with Jnanpith. So you go for mediation. I will handle it when it comes along. Dineshkannambadi 22:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Hence lets refrain from getting these narrow- minded linguistic and regional trivia on this page. Knowledge Hegemony 07:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This log is ridiculous. Too much edit-warring, particularly recently, so new rules.
Violation of the above conditions will be rewarded by block, and savagely so, until the message sinks in. Moreschi Talk 22:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
There has been plenty discussion on the talk page. There has even been an RfC, initiated by me, (see here for summary]), which specifically addressed the question of adding new material to the India page. The majority view point (by 8 votes to 3) was succinctly summarized by bureaucrat Taxman:
“ | Additional information should go in the subarticles only unless strong consensus is achieved first for the need to add it to the main article. Summaries of thousands of years of history are very difficult to write and that hard work has already been done. While it may be able to be improved, it won't be easy. The least that is fair to do is discuss first before adding anything. Yes, I don't know that there is a better way to get that accross other than very polite edit summaries like "please get consensus on the talk page first". | ” |
This RfC has been repeatedly advertised on this page, yet, editors like user:Sarvagnya and a group of editors ( user:Gnanapiti, user:KNM, and now user:Dineshkannambadi) routinely flaunt it. For example, yesterday user:Dineshkannambadi introduced a major POV addition on the Kannada writers (see here) with no accompanying discussion on the talk page and with casual edit summary, "The Jnanpith is also important and must be mentioned," which turned out to be grossly inaccurate, when compared to what was added: "Contemporary Kannada literature is the most successful in India, with India's highest literary honor, the Jnanpith awards, having been conferred seven times upon Kannada writers, which is the highest for any language in India." When, user:KnowledgeHegemony challenged this edit, it was promptly reverted by the group in a series of reversions that ultimately led to the locking down. The group has in the past been repeatedly taken to RFCU (see here), but has very little history of actually contributing to the India page (see this page, type: India, and then wait a few long seconds.) The major editors of this page: user:Nichalp, user:Fowler&fowler, user:KnowledgeHegemony, user:Ragib, user:Ganeshk, user:Sundar, user:Saravask, user:Abecedare, user:Blacksun have seldom had these problems with each other. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Let me just say first, that Wiki already has a way of dealing with people who arent constructive like User:Dineshkannambadi was yesterday. We dont need another set of religious police watching what we do and threating us with blocks. This is a FREE encyclopedia. No one owns it so I hope no one tries to act like the big kid on the block. Nikkul 18:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Unprotected, no point having that on now. Edit away! Interestingly, looking back through the history, the problems appear to be more uncooperative editing than outright trolling (though there is a bit of that), and an atmosphere where casual reverts are permitted. This isn't in itself absolutely fatal, but it's creating bigger problems (witness the edit-warring from yesterday spilling over to Jnanpith Award). Essentially, I think we need a bit of a culture change, with a little more discussion and less focus on instant reverting. I'm going to try to foster a more cooperative atmosphere (hmm, and I'm prepared to enforce cooperative editing by block. Pleasing paradox, don't you think?). Either way, please enjoy the editing experience senza protection (Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia anyone can edit - except when the page gets protected, when no one can edit at all). Isn't my model preferable? Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 20:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Wikiraja, whose impressive wiki-resume includes multiple blocks for various things including but not limited to edit warring and socking and adding obscenity, not too long ago filed a RFCU arguing that I, dineshkannambadi, knm, gnanapiti, amar and others were socks.
Needless to say, it got thrown out. Unceremoniously. And guess who he turns for succour? Well our own Mr. 'Uninvolved' Wiki-ssharaf. And what does our benevolent admin tell the troll? He tells him.. "They are not socks. Just a bunch of nuisances...".. and then he offers more words of encouragement lest our troll get disheartened. He says.. "...sit tight for a couple of months and whistle for a wind".
Moreschi clearly harbors bitter and inscrutable prejudice against a lot of users here and ought to step away from this page. He says he doesnt care two hoots for the subject, anyway. Whats even more perplexing is the fact that none of us have ever interacted with him or edited the same pages. And yet, he sees it fit to label us 'nuisances' while at the same time pandering to a rank troll. He is clearly here with an agenda and people here arent idiots not to see through it. Sarvagnya 20:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Please see WP:BLOCK and understand that blocking is not intended as a punitive measure. On other notes, I can only agree with earlier obseervations, ironically, about intellectual dishonesty and edit warring putting off well intended edits, but I will also note that it does,in some cases, it does raise the threshold of acceptable reference material, if not sometimes at the sad abuse of WP:TRUTH and WP:VERIFY. If anything, this article needs a thorough review of WP:OWN, since a number of editors (including myself) have opined in the past that a core group of editors are hogging the article with repeated reverts, edit-warring, trollish abuse, and abusibe mediation threats. The end result has been tha the India article is one of the least informative FA country article I have seen so far. This is what needs to be addressed if the article is to be improved. Taking puitive actions against any editor for having expressed his or her opinion (per WP:TALK) in this talkpage is itself an abuse of admin priviledges and should be considered carefully. Moreover, this is itself unlikely to help improve this article by creating an even worse atmosphere. Please think carefully before making well-intentioned but ill-thought recommenations. Rueben lys 22:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
What are the thoughts of users regarding removing someone's legitimate comments from talk page? User Moreschi recently removed a set of perfectly legitimate arguments by another user regarding their thoughts on his manifesto regarding martial law on India page. Are we not allowed to air our thoughts freely on the talk page even as long as they are petinent to Wikipedia and India article? -- Blacksun 17:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Please, someone reinstate his comments - just not right in the middle of mine. I find that really off-putting, just makes reading the page very difficult. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 19:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There were 11 images in the Image Rotation Template (in the culture section). Those are the images that have been stably rotated for over two weeks and the ones that people are voting on. Why have all these extra images been suddenly added to the vote? I am withdrawing from the vote unless the original 11 are restored. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 21:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Im sorry, nothing is permanent on Wiki. You cant expect that that no other image will ever be added and these "stable"iamges will always be there and blah blah blah.
As I have said earlier, all images should be rotatable. Taj does not get special preference (no offence to Shah Jahan and Mumtaz) just because its your pet. Dineshkannambadi 23:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
So basically, to sum up Fowler's concerns, it was the concept of rotation that was being experimented with. There was an agreement that we would discuss the images in the rotation seperately at a later time. This is what we are doing now. Now we are discussing which images will go into the rotation. Nikkul 00:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, Do we look like pigs to you? It is not that hard for humans to picture a photo in the culture section. An image does not need to be in a rotation for two weeks in order for a human to picture what it would look like in the culture section. And no, no one is going to delete the pictures because this is where we discuss which images will go into the rotation and which images will not. You have no power in saying that those 11 images are the only ones that will be voted on because people have been able to "see" them in the culture section. This is where we discuss the images individually. There is no other place where we have discussed the culture images. Second of all, no one is cramming anything down your throat. And you are welcome to add images, no one has placed a restriction on you. Just as long as they relate to indian culture. Nikkul 08:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Also let us make it clear since Fowler has blurred the actual stats of the vote [6]:
So the vote wasnt 11 to 8 Nikkul 09:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I still believe in the utility of the proposal. However, it is a complete mess right now. I think that it needs to start with very strict guidelines and methodology. I propose that we have at most -three- images per slot. I also propose that every thing is fair including Taj image. The guidelines of selection should be same as if there was no rotation. This is bit ambiguous and can be hammered out. I believe that a small and hard cap will allow us to develop this into something more concrete that can be expanded if needed. I also think that we should keep the knitty gritty of specific images to be selected on another talk page as not to swamp this one as is the case right now. -- Blacksun 10:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I hope you all get the point I am trying to make here. Wikipedia is not a democracy. I've been back here 5 days and this is the 3rd or 4th vote I am seeing on this talk page. This is not how things are supposed to be done here. I know you all don't get along with each other. I would suggest that all of you take a nice voluntary break from this article and try editing somewhere else for a week. This article is not going to remain FA in this manner. If you look from the outside, all this bickering really looks silly. It really doesn't matter much if it the culture section has an image of a hut or a mosque or a temple. Nor does it matter if a state has had the most no. of X awards. Do stop before things get uglier. You all are the most productive users left in the Indian project. Please spend your time writing more DYKs, FAs, GAs and doing more copyediting (not that you are not already doing all of this) than spending majority of your time on an already featured article. - Aksi_great ( talk) 08:47, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Agreed wholeheartedly with Aksi.
The bickering/voting/rotation thing seen above is totally to appease different *editors* , rather than focused on the *readers*. The idea of rotation is ridiculous ... and a daily rotation is even more so. People won't be coming back daily to this article to see *today's rotated image*, rather readers would most likely come to the article once to get the information they need. If an image is good, have it in the article. If it isn't, then don't have it here. An unstable article is NOT worthy of being a featured article ... and with the ridiculous vote seen above, this article is becoming unstable day by day.
Also, Wikipedia isn't a democracy, and things are decided by consensus and policies rather than numeric superiority. -- Ragib 09:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The problem, Ragib, is that there are many good images that are relevant completely. So how do you propose we show all of India's culture in two single images? Nikkul 09:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I did searches in four standard databases for secondary academic sources: (1) Catalogue of Major Academic and National Libraries in the UK and Ireland, 2) US Library of Congress On Line Catalog, 3) The JSTOR catalog of journal articles, 4) Google Scholar Advanced Search, as well as 5) Google Advances Search for University Sites (site:edu). (The last search was undertaken simply to gauge popularity in university settings.)
The Urdu poet Ghalib alone had more references and citations than all seven Kannada winners of the Jnanpith Award put together (in each of the five databases). Iqbal has many more. That late 19th and early 20th century Urdu Poetry is not mentioned in the culture section, but Kannada writers are, is therefore not borne out by the sources. Arranged below are the statistics: the five numbers following each writer represents the number of references that showed up in each database in guided (boolean) searches like "Kuvempu <and> Kannada" or "Kuvempu <and> Kannada Literature" or "Puttappa <and> Kannada" in the Keywords of the book or article description. The method was uses for all searches.
Those two representatives alone of late 19th and early 20th century Urdu poetry, is each more notable (in these databases) than all seven Kannada writers put together. And Urdu poetry has many many more poets ... The point I am making it that this gratuitous reference to the Kannada writers needs to be removed, unless one wants to accommodate the more notable writers first, and that would make the culture section very very long.
I know my interlocutors will try and pooh-pooh this data. "One of Fowler's inane exercises," they will say. But this is serious. These writers are simply not notable enough (per secondary sources) in contrast to a Ghalib or an Iqbal, and there is no reason why Wikipedia should give them that notability. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 11:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I have geone ahead and remove a sentence extolling Tagore's Geetanjali in Bengali. It gives a sense of giving importnance to only one vernacular literature which is not faire. It deserves to be be in the article Indian literature. Dineshkannambadi 16:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Fowler doesnt know the first thing about notability. He keeps bringing up this 'relative' notability nonsense every second day. Currency in secondary sources was only meant to be used to establish 'notability' - not 'relative' notability. Arguing that X is "more notable" than Y because X returns n times more hits is almost juvenile. By that logic, we wouldnt go much further than film stars an sportsmen on any article. For that matter, I'd wager a Debashish mohanty or a dhoni would win hands down against say, a Dhanraj Pillay or perhaps, a P T Usha. But we know better. Dont we? By Fowler's logic, William Shakespeare will perhaps end up as more notable than all Indian writers put together. Heck, even a Sidney Sheldon or a 'Harry Potter' would beat us hands down. By his logic, an Iqbal can take on two Ghalibs! LOL.
Ludicruous as comparing Ghalib and Bendre/Kuvempu is, do I need to point out that Urdu draws from a 55 crore pool while Kannada has all of say, 5 crores... and by that logic, Hindi should have had what? 50 jnanpiths by now.. but it only has 6.. one less than Kannada. Hindi's 6 is certainly "more notable" than Kannada's 7 eh?
Anyway, thats not the point. The point is Fowler repeatedly dumping his fallacious and specious arguments on this talk page even after it has been countered and discarded over and over and over again over many months now. If it is not trolling and disruption, I want to know what it is.
Having said that, the line about Jnanpiths was admittedly unwieldy. But all that it required was for us to explore ways of stitching it in better... not the willy nilly reverting that Fowler indulges in and has indulged in for over a year now. Sarvagnya 18:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi! This post by sarvagnya speaks some good issues. Yes, the systemic bias is there all over the wikipedia.
First, the festivals. If you ask about festival in India, it is deepawali and eid (not Ganeesh Chaturthi, which is regional). Indeed, the festival paragraph can be written as follows: "Many of the Indian festivals are religious in origin, although several are celebrated irrespective of caste and creed. There are a few pan-Indian festivals such Deepavali and the two eids. Multitude of other festivals are celebrated according to regional demographics, such as Holi, Onam, Vijayadashami, Bihu, Durga puja, Christmas, Ugadi, Sankranti, Buddha Jayanti and Vaisakhi.'
Next, architecture—personally I am naive in this topic. I don't know if there are such architectural traditions as Hindu architecture, Jain architecture etc. The present link South Indian architecture takes you to an article which describes all the styles, such as Chola, Vijaynagara, Chalukya, Rashtrakuta etc. No nobody thinks about the Toda architecture when Indian architecture comes into mind.
Literature—Ancient literaures in Sanskrit (pan-Indian) and Tamil (south of Bindhya) covered. In contemporary literature, only the most famous and Nobel-winning person, and the author of the national anthem is mentioned. It stops here for the sake of brevity, there is the indian literature article for the interested person. Nobel is an internationally-recognized award and much more important any Jnanpith or Sahitya Academy award (with due respect to all the awardees). Jnanpith, Bharatratna, Phalke recipients should not be mentioned because then article will blow up in size. However, naming that Jnanpith is highest in literature in India, Phalke in cinema, Bharatratna highest civilian award may be incorporated (just the names of the awards). Any more suggestion to include in the literature paragraph? It includes epics (mahabharat), Kalidas, Sangam, and, Tagore among the contemporaries. May be a general sentence like, "Individual Indian languages have own set of authors who won several national and international awards, for writing in their vernacular as well as English" ? (Sounds very lame, though).
I am not mentioning the chicken-episode because I am not aware of what happened.
Regarding your complain of North Indian bias, to me it's not there (I am not exactly a North Indian). In culture section, I see classic dance forms, folk art forms are represented from all iver India, no North-South-East-west divide.
Better, we could invite some non-Indian wikipedians to have a look, and see their reaction if they think the article over-emphasizes north Indian aspects as opposed to South Indian. Comments? Regards.-- Dwaipayan ( talk) 20:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Here are the responses to your points:
1) The original references were the two books of K. T. Achya.
They are sitting in my shelves, and I am happy to quote from them: Reference 1. (p.18) (entry) "The Harappans knew the domestic fowl, but its remains are few, and it is not depicted on any seals. Even though domestication may have occurred outside the orbit of Harappan civilization, perhaps in the Gangetic Valley (citation provided here), the Indian jungle fowl Gallus gallus is considered to have been the progenitor of all domestic poultry in the world."
This has been the commonly held belief for some time (based on historical and (scanty) archaeological evidence.) For example, Stanley Wolpert's book, India begins with, "All of us, who wear cotton cloth, use the decimal system, enjoy the taste of chicken, play chess or roll dice, and seek peace of mind or tranquility through meditation, are indebted to India." (Cotton is also (or at least was also) commonly thought to have been first cultivated in India, and more importantly, cotton cloth first thought to have been woven there.) With advances in ecological genetics in the 1990s, the same questions began to be tackled by geneticists. The first such attempts for chicken, which got some publicity, and made their way into popular books, traced the origin to Thailand. And this is what was found by user:Amarrg in his popular references, which I referred to above as "out-of-date." Out-of-date, because, that phylogenetic evidence was soon improved and the domestic chicken is now considered to have "multiple maternal origins" (i.e. multiple centers of origin, based on mitochondrial DNA markers, which are inherited through the mother.) The current thinking is that although it may have been domesticated independently in China, Southeast Asia, and the Indian subcontinent, the one that spread to the rest of the world (Americas, Africa, Europe, Middle East) is the domesticated Gallus gallus of the Indian subcontinent. And this is basically what the references I provide in the link say.
No, I didn't change anything. I provided the updated DNA references in my exchange with user:Amarrg including the references to the multiple maternal origin, and main diffusion from South Asia, but you all seemed too busy celebrating what you thought was your coup to pay attention. The references have been on the link page at least since early November. (See the history of that page.)
3) "Man" was not eating chicken before it spread from South Asia to the rest of the western world. Humans likely were eating wild birds, but they weren't chicken. In other words, in (say) 2500 BC, in Africa, there was no chicken. There may have been wild fowls, pheasants, wild ducks, turkeys, ..., but no chicken. There obviously was something to the taste of the Indian jungle fowl Gallus gallus, otherwise its domination today in poultry wouldn't be so total. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmmmm... I see many these arguments centers around Fowler's way of editing, almost owning the article, and huge amount of talks in this talk page.
I was one of the guys who tried for incorporation of Bose (and the revolutionaries in general). Yes, the talks was really tiresome. And, indeed, I lack such huge number of references. So what I did? I had to admit that, with the present resources and the size of teh article, Bose cannot be incorporated. Indeed, later on, Fowler started building a user subpage on Indian independence movement.
Now, was I irritated by Fowler's continuous citing sources and loads of talks? Yes I was, quite a lot. But finally I admitted to myself that yes, Bose, in the present status of the article, cannot be mentioned. Because although his talks are full of eye-soring references, and staffs like that, usually he talks sense.
Regarding the North-South bias etc, I am not accusing you are the person who is bringing that. Rather, maybe you are the person who is helping remove the bias, along with others. But, apparently, the edits done by the you et al seem that the edits are being done for a particular purpose, to highlight Kannada language or to highlight something. And this has led to an apparent idea that most of the edits by the group will be unacceptable PoV. Indeed, at some times, they are. The way a prolific editor like Dinesh removed the Tagore Nobel bit today, in probable retaliation to my removal of Kannada literature's Jnanpith winnings, (mentioning in the edit note, that Tagore was overemphasizing Bengali literature) goes on to show the unfortunate blindness.
However, we've seen how brilliant contributor Dinesh, amar, KNM and you are, in several articles, including loads of DYKs and FAs. So why erratic behaviour here? Probably, you felt your state/language was less represented here, and tried to bring a balance, and in the process infused some over-statements. And this going over board is provincialism. I am saying it on the face here.
Yes, in the past, there may have been unfortunate and unethical ill-treatment of some parts of India in the article, and thanks to the excellent works of all the people involved, the article is still in good shape. We thank you for that.
I am talking about the present status of the article. Show me a biased opinion, and fix it. If it is a clear bias, no body will revert your edit. If you want to add something new, discuss it here, and if appropriate, add it. You are a much more regular editor in India article than I am, so you know the rule better than I do. Please keep the provincial sentiments away. You can still do a lot for Karnataka and India(which you are, indeed, doing in WP:KARNATAKA and WP:IND). Everyone loves his/her mother tongue/state/region. Going overboard has caused so many unfortunate incidences in real life, let the virtual world be free of that.
Sorry for being so harsh, but please be contemplative. You have to admit that in contemporary literature Kannada, Hindi, Bengali, Tamil, or whatever language—does not deserve seperate mention in India article. Tagore deserves for his own reasons. -- Dwaipayan ( talk) 00:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
As I have mentioned Awards and honours section above, the Jnanpith Award is not India's highest literary honour. The expressions "highest civilian honour," (Bharat Ratna) "highest military honour," (Param Vir Chakra) are all used for awards handed out by the government of the day (and the rank "highest" is decided by that government). The Jnanpith, instituted in 1965, is an award handed out by a private organization. To be sure, it is very prestigious and you could say something like "widely considered the most prestigious literary award in India" (and provide citations), but you cannot use "highest." If there is an award that would qualify for this, it would be the election to a Sahitya Academy Fellows. Indeed, in the section above, I have provided examples of exactly such usage. The Jnanpith Award page itself, by including a lead sentence, "The Jnanpith Award is the highest literary honour conferred in the Republic of India," – which refers to the country by its official name – and by continuing to flagrantly display the Indian honours and decoration template, further confounds the confusion between a nation's award and an award in the nation. All the other awards mentioned in that template are official awards of the Republic of India, which the Jnanpith Award is not. Its inclusion in that template is the equivalent of including the Booker Prize or the Whitbread Prize on the same template with the Victoria Cross, if such a template were made for Britain.
More importantly, there are other awards, like the Dadasaheb Phalke Award, the nation's highest award for lifetime achievement in film, or the Sangeet Natak Academi's Ratna Sadasya (Fellow) in dance, music, and drama. Those have not been mentioned anywhere in the culture section. Indeed the Bharat Ratna is not mentioned anywhere on the India page. Why then the Jnanpith? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
If were still talking about the edit that said Kannada writers won more awards than any other language. i Am totally opposed to that. If you say kanada writers are better than any other language's youre going to spark regional competition and split the whole article regionally. Dont try it cuz itll get rvd. Nikkul 07:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Although I am taking a break from editing both the main article and this talk page, I thought this is important enough to bring to people's notice.
Apparently, yesterday, this article was nominated for a Featured Article Removal review (please see here), which lasted 13 hours and 18 minutes. In the future, would the editor(s) who nominate the article for a review ( Kaypoh ( talk · contribs)) and those who participate in it, kindly announce its existence in a post here (or perhaps on the India bulletin board). I know that there is no Wikipedia requirement that this be done, but it is a courtesy that would greatly help, since the presence of an additional (mysterious) icon at the top of a talk page might go by unnoticed. Thanks very much and regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The Trial period of the Rotation is over. It is now time to vote on images that will go into the rotation. Let us comment on images one by one. Please comment in the comment section only:
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This image seems really dull. Maybe its because I got a new computer and all the images looked dull on my old computer. But I feel like the image used to be more appealing before. For example, the grass seemed more green before and the Hut seemed like a more interesting brown color. Any comments? Nikkul 01:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Fowler, I hope you realize that rural is different from tribal. yes 67 percent is rural, but that doesnt mean 67 percent live in Toda Huts! Your argument is misleading. -- Nikkul ( talk) 20:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
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