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In light of this discussion, I propose we create a Talk:India/Sandbox for those wanting to make major changes to the article. Since not everyone may like this proposal, those who wish to try it out may add their name below. As I said in the Boldness section, which is linked above, I hope this will spark a more egalitarian environment where accusations WP:OWN go away.
There are two ways it could be done as I far as I see. We can plonk the current India article and go from there except people who wish to make conflicting changes can't show it. I think each user having their own section, where they quote what sentences/section in their opinion needs improving and then reveal their planned changes. Other users can then copyedit the planned changes if there are issues with spelling, grammar and WP:MOS. Very major changes can also be objected of course and will be disabandoned if consensus disagrees.
If anyone sees any huge obstacles with this idea please let me know. I expect the users who agree to this to stop any major editing to the main India article until a consensus forms. Only minor changes and vandalism reverts would be allowed. This page is where essentially all the WP:BOLDness can be unleashed. Gizza Discuss © 13:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, In keeping with DaGizza's suggestions, I have created a peer-review and sandbox subpage Talk:India/Text Peer Review and Sandbox (shortcut WP:TITPRS). It is modeled on the picture peer review for Featured Pictures, but in addition includes a Work Area or Sandbox. The page describes how to request text for peer review or communal edit, with a demo example, DemoText. Please take a look at it. The page is for text that can vary in size from a sentence up to a large paragraph (approx. 250 words), but is not for entire sections of the India page. Indeed one the underlying principles of the page is that addition of new text is best done in manageable bits. I will set up a list of volunteer "reviewers" on that page as well. Please let me know what you think and please sign up if you like the idea. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
So I'm kind of confused. So by signingup, one would promise not to make edits without first doing it in the sandbox, then showing everyone, making sure its okay, and then adding it to the India page? Nikkul 20:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I have created two sandboxes, one each for the Economy and Demographics sections. I dumped the 'stable' versions of both sections on the respective pages and then proceeded to bring over the new additons/expansions. Please check the history of the two pages to understand. After bringing over the new additions, I proceeded to cpedit the economy page and have somewhat 'normalised' it to include both rueben/Otolemur's additions and the text that already existed. Of course, there were some repetitions and I got rid of them. I request that editors take a look at it and just start editing it. The titpr idea seems lame to me in that I fear there will be more talk and less work. Sarvagnya 18:10, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
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user:Sarvagnya has continued to insert Yakshagana in the list of classical dances in the culture section. Although in section Talk:India#Yakshagana , I have provided irrefutable evidence (including a signed Encyclopaedia Britannica article written by some of the best known experts on South Asian arts all of whose web sites I have provided) that Yakshagana is considered to be traditional theatre and not classical dance, user:Sarvagnya and user:KNM have continued to revert the page to their version with edit summaries that don't make sense. In one edit summary user:KNM claimed that it was a classical folk art form. Even if that were accurate, it would not make it classical dance but rather classical theatre (the term for which is "traditional theatre"). Consequently, it would not be listed with the other dances like Bharatanatyam and Odissi. In another edit summary user:Sarvagnya wrote (see here), "Yakshagana is Classical, the same way Kannada is classical.. politically motivated babudom doesnt get to decide classicality of humanities for a 'pedia." Again, I don't know what that means, but the signed Encyclopaedia article says clearly that Yakshagana is folk theatre. I request that Yakshagana be removed from the list of classical dances. If and when we have a section or a paragraph on "Folk and Tribal Culture of India" (which includes classical forms), we can reconsider Yakshagana's inclusion. Since the Yakshagana edit had nothing to do with the later edit wars that shut the page down, I request that this edit be made; otherwise, Wikipedia will be putting out inaccurate information with full awareness of the inaccuracies. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
[7] Yakshagana is no more or no less theater than Kathakali is, for example. If the Enc. Britannica calls it "theater"(as in drama/skit), they dont know what they're talking about or more likely that you dont know what they're talking about. And Yakshagana is not a "folk" art in the strictest sense of the word either. Yakshagana too, like all other classical dances of India traces and attributes its technique to the encyclopediac "Natya Shastra" - the same Natya Shastra to which kathakali and manipuri and bharatanatyam and almost all dance forms of India owe alliegiance to. The theme and subject of the performances are also drawn from the Mahabharata, Ramayana or the Puranas unlike "folk" or "tribal" arts. For a more in depth view into it, get your hands on this book by Shivarama Karanth [8], no less, and take your ill informed nonsense elsewhere. Sarvagnya 17:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I produce a signed Encyclopaedia Britannica article on "South Asian Arts" written by some of the world's best known experts: Sivaramamurti, Calambur, J. A. B. van Buitenen, Edward C. Dimock, C.M. Naim, A.K. Ramanujan, Nazir Ali Jairazbhoy, Balwant Gargi, Pramod Chandra and in addition the website of the Sangeet Natak Academi (The National Academy of Music, Dance and Drama of India); in contrast, user:Sarvagnya has produced a one-paragraph advertisement in the Hindu newspaper: [9], a page from a tourist travel guide, whose reference to "Yakshagana" says in its entirety, "Karnataka Janapada and Yakshagana Academy (Tel. 2215509), Canara Finance building, Nrupathunga Rd, hold folk music and dance performances, including (obviously) Yakshagana dance from the Mangalore region." and [10] a video from YouTube: [11] [12]. His tourist guide, BTW, seems to suggest that Yakshagana is Folk Dance. What is this, an attempt at farce?
According to the signed Encyclopaedia Britannica article, Sivaramamurti, Calambur, J. A. B. van Buitenen, Edward C. Dimock, C.M. Naim, A.K. Ramanujan, Nazir Ali Jairazbhoy, Balwant Gargi, Pramod Chandra "South Asian arts: Techniques and Types of Classical Dance" From: Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 12 Oct. 2007, "Four distinct schools of classical Indian dance—bharata-natya, kathakali, kathak, and manipuri—exist in the 20th century ... In 1958 the Sangeet Natak Akademi (National Academy of Music, Dance and Drama) in New Delhi bestowed classical status on two other schools of dance—kuchipudi, from Andhra Pradesh, and orissi, from Orissa." Yakshagana is not in that list. The Britannica article was written in 1979 (so it is dated) in terms of what might be the classical dance forms in 2007, as designated by the Sangeet Natak Academy; however, in the section "South Asian arts: Folk Theatre", which is a completely different section from "Dance," the Britannica article does say:
“ | After the decline of Sanskrit drama, folk theatre developed in various regional languages from the 14th through the 19th centuries ... The most crystalized forms are the jatra of Bengal, the nautanki, ramlila, and raslila of North India, the bhavai of Gujarat, the tamasha of Maharashtra, the terukkuttu of Tamil Nadu, and the yaksagana of Kanara. | ” |
The Sangeet Natak Academi (India's National Academy of Music, Dance and Drama) website itself says, (see here):
“ | More than 25 important forms of traditional and folk theatre from different States will be featured together with traditional forms of the respective States of the North-East. These will include such well-known traditions as Tamasha of Maharashtra, Bhavai of Gujarat, Yakshagana of Karnataka, Therukoothu of Tamil Nadu, Nautanki of Uttar Pradesh, Prahlad Natak of Orissa | ” |
The Sangeet Natak Academi website lists eight classical dance forms: Bharatanatyam, Kathak, Kathakali, Kuchipudi, Manipuri, Mohiniattam, Odissi, and Sattriya, one folk dance form, Chau, and Creative Dance/Choreography as the areas it makes its major national awards in (see here).
The Yakshagana Cultural Magazine, itself considers Yakshagana to be a "theater form" and not a "dance form." See: yakshagana.com and click on "introduction." and read quote: "Being a theatre form, unlike a dance form, it is more plural(istic) and dynamic.") Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Bottom Line: Why don't we Request a Mediation, and let the Mediation Committee decide who has the more Reliable Sources backing them up? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
“ | When I use the word 'folk' here, I dont mean in any disparaging sense. Its components like music, dance and costume are highly sophisticated and cannot be mastered without long study and practise. To me, Yakshagana is as classical as Bharata Natya or Karnataki or Hindustani music. The term 'folk' is used here in the sense that all along its patrons have been the people at large and not the royalty. Its artists belong to the very class of villagers who often throng to these all night performances | ” |
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User Otolemur in
this edit removed a large fragment of the sentence:
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company from the early eighteenth century and colonised by the United Kingdom from the mid-nineteenth century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence that was marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
without any edit summary or explanation of his action (let alone his motivations). Furthermore, what remains now:
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company from the early eighteenth century and colonised by the United Kingdom from the mid-nineteenth century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after struggle for independence. | ” |
is not only missing an article, but is abrupt and tautological. Since this edit too, of a sentence that had been stable since last November, had no connection with the subsequent edit-wars linked to the lock-down, I request that it be reverted and the original text be reinstated. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
User Otolemur has not only added subsections to the India page, but to the United States and Pakistan pages as well. On the US page his edits have changed the Table of Contents from this to this, and given his editing pattern on that page, he is likely to add more subsections there. He did the same on the Pakistan page, but after being challenged there, decided to temporarily back off. Since some of his newly created subsections on the Pakistan page were three lines long, and those on the currently locked-down India page are only a hair's breadth longer, his approach appears to be one of selecting subtopics and creating the subsections first and then filling them up with text. I am myself of the opposite school. I prefer to add the content first, to develop it, and only then, if the text suggests it (by its theme and length), do I create subsections. I am not necessarily against subsections, but I prefer to create them towards the end of text development; besides, I feel that this early straight-jacketing of contents prevents exploration of themes that might otherwise arise.
Since the India page is currently locked down–consequently, since time is of the essence–and since one of the bones of contention antecedent to the lock-down was the creation of the many subsections, I suggest that we conduct a simple straw poll rather than pursue more protracted forms of consensus building. Please cast your vote below. Please sign.
I think if we can put this (minor) issue behind us, we can proceed with more important issues such as what new sections are needed (if any) and how much to expand the article by (if at all), and get the show back on the road. Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
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Obviously, this doesn't need to be edited immediately, but the second paragraph has some serial comma issues. It's important for consistency above all, here. The text of my suggested change follows, to replace the second sentence of the second paragraph of the introduction.
Four major world religions---Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism---originated here, while Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism arrived in the first millennium CE and shaped the region's variegated culture.
-- AaronRosenberg 22:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I have started making use of this page. I intially only wanted to copyedit a sentence on health in the demographics section but I then realised the references citing the sentence don't exactly say what is stated in the article. Gizza Discuss © 23:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
This sentence was recently added to the article: "Science and technology in India forms a major commitemnet for both the Govt and Private sector in India. India posseses one of the world's largest scientific and technological infrastructure and manpower, which in [[2006] was worth Rs 30 billion, up from the Rs 10 million in [[1947]."
Ignoring the choppy sentence structure, I have serious issues with the verifiability of some of things it stays. My argument is based on some reasonable assumptions, as follows,
Now, the only clear evidence that has been presented so far in support of this statement is that the above statement was made by the High Commisioner of India in London (can someone actually give me that link, I have missed it). I state that the high commissioner of India in London cannot be regarded as a credible evidence for such a statement. If we were to use every public figures statement as a credible evidence, articles on countries like China and Pakistan might look very different.
The evidence that I present is as follows,
So, my point is that even though India has made great strides in science and technology, she is still behind the developed nations in terms of funding and infrastructure available for science. As a result, lot of Indian students go to the west for doing their PhD and also settle there due to lack of funding and exciting research being done in India. The sentence in its present form goes against assumption #2 and makes it seem like India is at the forefront of research. As such, it really needs to be rephrased heavily. -- Blacksun 09:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Since the straw poll for sub-sections seems to be moving along, I thought it might be time to have a straw poll for new additions. I have created a set of choices below which allow the voter to choose between anything from no expansion to the addition of a full section. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Definition: A Large paragraph is approximately 250 to 300 words; a small paragraph is 125 to 150 words. Those are the approximate upper limits.
Finally, the last issue that is dogging the page–the problem of images. Rotation of images was proposed by some people and opposed by others. I had originally created a simple straw poll below, but since some votes were ambiguous, I have clarified the categories, so that there is no confusion. Since a number of people have already expressed their opinions, I am adding their names (for or against). Please correct if I have made a mistake. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC) Updated: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify my position, I am not totally against a rotational system (this was what I wrote before There is some benefit in a "rotation" system but the biggest problem with it is that the image debate will never go away. Half of the discussions here would be forever about images. Perhaps we should try to feature pictures from regions not represented here at the moment, add those and leave it there.) but I do other some other concerns. One of the criteria in WP:WIAFA is stability. Traditionally, it has nearly always referred edit wars and drastic content changes, not image changes. However, if one sees inactive WP:STABLE, WP:FLAGGED and WP:1.0, you will notice that stable versions of articles will be of importance for Wikipedia in the future. Regardless of its quality, the India article has high priority and a particular version may be tagged as "stable" in the future. Gizza Discuss © 22:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, though I doubt anybody has thought of the range of images that will used, I would be keen to know how regional balance will be brought about. I think it would be unfair to give every state and union territory equal coverage, because would be giving WP:UNDUE weight to some of the tiny states. At the same time, using a previous example, giving 300 times the coverage to Uttar Pradesh than Sikkim is unrealistic too. These issues would be need to be discussed before any application of a rotation system. Gizza Discuss © 22:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
We all agree that one image can never represent Indian culture in its entirety. Rotating images can get closer to doing this than having one image and saying THIS represents India in all forms. Nikkul 17:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
One small observation -- all the talk about rotation seem to be for appeasing *editors* of the article, and NOT the *readers*. One common argument I see above is regional balance. Well, that again is for appeasing editors from different regions ... who want to see an image from their region showed here. But we are forgetting that the actual readers of the page are likely to be people who want to know about India, and would come to the page for learning about it in a nutshell. Do the pro-rotation editors think that users will come to the page again and again in each rotation cycle, so that the rotation of images will give them a regionally-balanced view? I hardly think so. Thanks. -- Ragib 18:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
In order to avoid an edit war both the images have been removed. Tagore's image has not gone under the scanner(ie.voted for) till now hence its unfair to replace the Toda pic with it. PS:Those who voted against Toda never said that their vote implied support *for* Tagore.Eg. Blacksun doest want the Tagore image. Nikkul wanted the image of Akshardham and Thoreulylazy wanted a pic of Thanjavur.
Whereas Toda had no clear consensus (against:for =17:18 or if Amargg's vote is added will be 18:18). Though "no consensus" should imply 'keep' (thats what is the rule in AfD). But still I removed it cause I am not so sure about that. Knowledge Hegemony 17:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I think the picture of Sakuntala is a wonderful idea. In addition to what Fowler's said, it seems to me that it simultaneously represents several aspects of Indian culture - the high Sanskritic culture represented by Kalidasa's play, the folk culture of which the Sakuntala story has become part, and recent art as represented by the use of a Ravi Varma painting. I really don't know what to say in reply to the suggestion that Kalidasa's works are less notable than Tagore. If google hits are going to be the criterion, Aishwarya Rai (1.93 million) and Amitabh Bachchan (1.73 million) produce more hits than Rabindranath Tagore (1.48 million), which is a fine example of why we don't use Google to decide what's more notable. -- Arvind 22:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the photoshopped image by user Nikkul: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NorthBlock.jpg
This is the original image: http://flickr.com/photos/nimrodbar/31437132/
I have serious quality issues with the photoshopped image: tacky and cgi "fake" looking - like one of those concept images for a new building that is planned. Nikkul mirrored one half of the image and pasted it on the other half to "get rid of the people" - and also did some lighting effects. So now we have people who should not be there + the image looks fake on inspection - because well it is fake! I discussed this with Nikkul about it but we seem to disagree on this. I would like to know what other people think. I find the original image just fine (with the people). -- Blacksun 09:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Why are we calling Yakshagana a dance form when it is a type of theater as shown by Fowler with half a dozen credible citations? If you want to mention Yakshagana then hammer out an acceptable line for folk theater in the culture section instead of giving false information to the reader. If you disagree with categorizing Yakshagana as folk theater instead of dance then please provide some evidence. I might have missed the dance form sides reasoning in all the other things that came up recently.-- Blacksun 11:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
“ |
Indian music covers a wide range of traditions and regional styles.
Classical music is split mainly between the North Indian
Hindustani and South Indian
Carnatic traditions. Famous representatives of Hindustani tradition are
shehnai-player
Ustad Bismillah Khan and
sitarist
Pandit Ravi Shankar and of the Carnatic tradition, vocalist
M. S. Subbulakshmi and
mridangam-player
Palghat Mani Iyer. Highly regionalised forms of popular music include
filmi and
folk music; the syncretic tradition of the
bauls of
Bengal is one of the best known forms of the latter.
Indian dance too has diverse folk and classical forms. Among the well-known folk dances are the bhangra of the Punjab, the bihu of Assam, the chhau of Bihar and Orissa and the ghoomar of Rajasthan. Eight dance forms, many with narrative forms and infused with devotional and mythological elements have been accorded classical dance status by the Sangeet Natak Academi, India's National Academy of Music, Dance, and Drama. These are: bharatanatyam of the state of Tamil Nadu, kathak of Uttar Pradesh, kathakali and mohiniattam of Kerala, kuchipudi of Andhra Pradesh, manipuri of Manipur, odissi of the state of Orissa, and sattriya of Assam. [2] The last named, traditionally performed by celibate monks of the Vaishnavite tradition, most notably on Majuli island in the Brahmaputra, is now performed by both women and laymen. [2] India has many forms of traditional and folk theatre, which include music, dance, and improvised or written dialogue. Often based in Hindu mythology, but, in addition, incorporating elements from medieval romances, and news of social and political events, these forms include the bhavai of state of Gujarat, the jatra of West Bengal, the nautanki and ramlila of North India, the tamasha of Maharashtra, the terukkuttu of Tamil Nadu, and the yakshagana of Karanataka. [3] Yakshagana, in particular, has undergone innovation in dance and theatre, which includes performances of Shakespeare. [4] |
” |
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 11:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC) Last update: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 11:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Whatever you guys used to end the "new additions" dispute, you should use it for the Shakuntala-Tagore dispute. Saravask 05:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Sarvagnya made a number of edits yesterday whose edit summaries once again fail to rise to an acceptable level of clarity or accuracy. Here are the edit summaries:
Comment:I dont understand why anyone would pick an image of the person that is Tagore over an example of art and literature that is Recognition of Sakuntala. Adding an image of Tagore does very little to the overall value of the article. Why? Because the image does not increase the value of the text regarding Tagore. The picture is just an image of a man. He is not famous for his picture but his great literature and deeds which are already mentioned in the article. I just dont understand why this is so hard to understand?? -- Blacksun 12:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: The fact that a few people have studied something (like the todas or shak) and published something on the internet doesnt mean it has to be included on wiki india.Image is also unclear. I'd prefer a temple or diwali image, but if that cant be done, i prefer tagore over shak Nikkul 23:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment - Nobody here needs any education in Kalidasa's stature and standing and we could do with a little less dumping of random info and filling of pages by Fowler. That said, the fallacy lies in even pitting Tagore and Kalidasa against each other. Thats comparing apples and oranges and downright ridiculous. It is the likes of Tagore that have saved the Kalidasas and the Ravi Varmas and the Manipuri dance and other art forms for posterity. Tagore brought the 'out of sight, out of mind' northeast into the national mainstream through his efforts in rejuvenating Manipuri dance. Kalidasa did no such thing. Kalidasa may have been a great poet and all that, but saying that he was the greatest of any age to write anything is streching it too far. I could argue that Sangita Ratnakara by Sharngadeva is the greatest literary work pertaining to "Culture". As far as pure literary content goes, Kalidasa may have few peers but it can easily be argued that the Sangita Ratnakara had a far more profound impact on Indian culture than abhignyanashakuntalam. It is, after all, the bible of all classical music in India - all of India. Both Hindustani and Carnatic traditions revere it and draw their most basic concepts from it.
The point I'm trying to make is, if we kept fishing, we can keep adding names and works to the article. And then, we can backdoor images like the "recognition" of shakuntala which ride solely on contrived and clumsily fitted sentences. Yes, I am arguing that not just the image but even the very mention of Kalidasa doesnt belong in this article. Kalidasa's works, towering as he is/was, dont compare with the the Ramayana or the Mahabharata. I would have no problem with the Kalidasa pic once we have rotation in place. If we cant have rotation, then we cant have Kalidasa. Not unless the the article is expanded. We cant have selective expansion just to suit somebody's POV. These are the same people who come up with word counts of other people's contributions and troll no end on talk pages about why it shouldnt be kept. So its time they walk the talk. We dont keep humoring nonsense forever. Sarvagnya 19:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Do we know for sure that the tiger is a Bengal tiger? The coloring, the paw-size, and body proportion look Siberian to me, but I could be wrong. If we don't know that it is a Bengal tiger, then it should be removed. Thanks. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Guess this edit stops the relentless nitpicking and abuse of process in the tracks. Sarvagnya 19:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay so I've been seeing random images of animals and now of culture under something called an imagefile. I'd just like to know
Nikkul 06:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I have tried adding a couple images under people...If you could please tell me in detail how to add images,that would be great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikkul ( talk • contribs) 02:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This follows up on earlier discussions in the sections Yakshagana, Reliable Sources Not YouTube on Yakshagana, Shivarama Karanth's Book on Yakshagana, and Yakshagana Redux. The current sentence on music and dance in the culture section, which includes Yakshagana in its list of classical dances, reads:
“ | Indian music covers a wide range of traditions and regional styles. Classical music is mainly split between the North Indian Hindustani and South Indian Carnatic traditions. Highly regionalised forms of popular music include filmi and folk music like bhangra. Many classical dance forms exist, including bharatanatyam, kathakali, kathak, kuchipudi, manipuri, odissi and yakshagana. They often have a narrative form and are usually infused with devotional and mythological elements. | ” |
The three choices for voting are:
This choice replaces the current paragraph above with the three short paragraphs (one each for music, dance and theatre) shown in Fowler&fowler's post (immediately following Blacksun's post) here
Votes:
This choice removes only Yakshagana from the list of classical dances in the current version displayed above.
Votes:
This choice keeps the current version of the paragraph (unaltered).
Votes:
From what I have observed, I think rotation is great. Over the last few visits to the actual article, I saw different faces of India esp the fauna section and also the culture section that I had never known existed (like the longtail squirrel) . I know that we have some ways to go before the image files are finalized, but I think this concept is very very progressive.
I think its the only way to solve the problem of showing India in all its forms instead of limiting Indian culture to just the Taj Mahal and the Toda Hut. And being one of the first people who brought this concept to the India page, I am very happy that of its success. I am actually very impressed by how much I can learn each time I visit the culture section or the fauna section.
To anyone who opposes the rotation, I'd like to ask them how they intend to solve the problem of showing India's cuisine, dress, dance, festivals, architecture, literature, sports, traditions, etc. etc. etc. in 2 pictures. Nikkul 07:36, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that is going to happen pretty soon...thats also what i had imagined and I think that we're going to do that very soon. I love how the rotation has virtually eliminated the debate about Tagore, something else, or Toda. It has ended edit wars, etc. Nikkul 14:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an involved point, so please bear with me. Although I had suggested rotation on this page in November 2006 (see F&f rotation1, F&f rotation2, F&f rotation3), I hadn't then thought about it with any care. More recently I came to oppose rotation because I didn't see it solving the so-called problem of balanced image content for the average reader, who likely doesn't go to the article enough times to catch all the images. This was the subject of my post Why rotation doesn't make sense; Ragib made the same point more eloquently in his post here. In the end, I voted to support rotation with the FP-quality condition in the straw poll above, thinking that image quality was the biggest problem related to rotation. However, even if all our images were Featured Pictures, there potentially is an even bigger problem looming ahead: the danger of all images becoming vanilla images, and leaving no affect or memory in the typical reader.
This struck me only this morning, when I was looking again at some of the images in the Encarta article on India. One of them, in particular, had struck me many months before when I first saw it. The picture shows a music class in the Veena in progress in Chennai, with four girls, each holding their instrument, and listening to their teacher. Under it was this caption:
“ | The Kalakshetras school of dance and music is located in Chennai (formerly Madras), India. These students are learning to play the vina, a traditional instrument in classical Indian music. This school is for the wealthier members of Indian society. Education for the majority of the population remains a problem due to lack of funds and the large number of different languages and cultures within the country. | ” |
One of the points that the caption makes, that "classical culture" is the province increasingly of the wealthy few, is a subtle point and bears repetition when it is made visually. I, most certainly, had almost forgotten the image, even though it was one of my more vivid experiences from that Encarta article. The image's many points would most certainly have been lost, had the image been replaced by another image making some other point. Memorable images require return visits. They require stability within the text, for them to settle in, as it were, in our consciousness. This to me potentially is the ultimate emptiness about rotations; they could turn even well-crafted images into vanilla images. Either the complex points like that in the Veena caption will not be made, or, when made, will not stick, because of their profusion.
People don't have to reply to this post, since it is a conjecture; however, I would be happy if they think about this possibility as this rotation trial unfolds this week. Meanwhile, however, I am changing my vote to "against rotation." Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Could this Encyclopedia Britannica article about Bihar that states "The state is divided into seven administrative divisions and 39 districts.", along with similar ones work as citations for "In larger states, districts may be grouped together to form a division." that has been tagged with a [citation needed].-- Keynes John Maynard 20:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
When it comes to facts about India, govt of India should and willl be the final authority. Somebody (seemingly peeved at the fact that 7500 > 7000) has changed the statement concerning the length of Indian coast line. That guy ( I beleive green-something) thibks that since CIA website says that the length of Indian coastline is 7000, that figure should be there. That green-something should refer the following govt of India link to get his facts right: http://india.gov.in/knowindia/profile.php. The coastline lenght is 7500 and not 7000. I am presently not able to see the edit button (blv the article is in semi-protected state courtesy overzealous and numerous incursions from the likes of Green-something) ELSE would have restoed sanity at once.
An aside for green-something: In addition to being an enviro friendly color, green also signifies something else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Texankudiya ( talk • contribs) 16:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Green*, with the kind of activity that can be seen around your name, it will be naivete to presume that your are not aware of Govt of India resources. Your misplaced zeal reminds me of an old incident wherein one of our neighbours started shouting that Indian Ocean needs to be renamed coz it has 'India' in its name. You were so very prompt to change the stat of 7.5k to 7k. Good alacrity!! Whether CIA wants to mislead or not is besides the point, what is important to note here is that whatever an institution of CIA'a calibre and stature does is not without reason or agenda. Definitely, when they do it, there will be reasons behind seemingly the most inoccuous ommissions or commissions. Get out of your unifocality, dear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.135.192 ( talk) 04:21, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Green Guys are not expected to be so restive. Y, on universe, r u being so touchy. My "...so much of activity " stuff seems to have ignited incomprehensible ferocity. Stay cool, uncle. As for your 'partisan' rejoinders, my research seems to point otherwise. Anyways, authenticity has been the beneficiary of this spat. I am glad that my activism has paid expected and positive dividends. Texankudiya 11:21, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Isn't this Image of the same statue better? -- Lokantha 03:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Did anyone observed that the offical map of India has a cut on its top? Samething carried out in "Free Access To All Human Knowledge” A Video Appeal From Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales " video clipping too. Has Indian govt. accepted the new map or what? The maps displayed along with the article are fine but the map displayed as offical locator on earth has a cut on the top, same also in the video clipping of wikipedia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.236.243.16 ( talk) 01:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I swear I thought this was the talk India page where people discuss things about this article. If you have a problem with Sarvagnyas edits about chikens, discuss them on the chicken page which is not this one (i think)
Nikkul
07:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)hey KNM, why did you have to change the section heading? you just robbed the poor guy the chance to wallow in his adolescence. hmm.. never mind, I'm sure he will come up with another gem. for now, this chicken and fowl spectacle sure is enough to keep us amused for the next few days. :)
Sarvagnya
16:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we leave out the mention that chicken sugar etc originated in India. Such a fact (contentious/little known) needs to be backed by more references, and we could very well expand on it on the article of cuisine of India. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is "Subdivisions of India" required as a separate section on the page? There is a navigation box for "States and territories of India". The map with all the states marked on it, along with the three column list of states and UTs, does not look good on the page and doesn't really inform a reader much about India, other than the first sentence, which could simply be integrated to another section. The list is really not required there, is it? Has there been a discussion on these lines before? I'll shut up if there has been one. The US page doesn't have a similar list, and countries like Australia with just a few states, or UK with its mention of its four parts can't be the reference. Then again, there could be many arguments in favor of sticking to the list that is in place, like somebody is going to point out. -- Keynes John Maynard 21:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
1) I find Amba vilas place image not important enough to be part of the rotation system.
2) I find the image quality to be poor. Only thing you can tell is that it is a big structure with small domes on top.
3) It has very suspicious and non-qualified caption: "Most visited tourist attraction in India"
If rotation is going to be used to put images like this with captions like that in the article, I am afraid I made a mistake supporting it. --
Blacksun
13:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Knowledge Hegemony 11:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
"Haven't you guys understood by now that I don't put things down unless I've checked the sources. Amazing!". It is just that I dont spin "cock and bull"(as Amar puts it) stories from my sources as someone here is wont to. Sarvagnya 19:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
In light of this discussion, I propose we create a Talk:India/Sandbox for those wanting to make major changes to the article. Since not everyone may like this proposal, those who wish to try it out may add their name below. As I said in the Boldness section, which is linked above, I hope this will spark a more egalitarian environment where accusations WP:OWN go away.
There are two ways it could be done as I far as I see. We can plonk the current India article and go from there except people who wish to make conflicting changes can't show it. I think each user having their own section, where they quote what sentences/section in their opinion needs improving and then reveal their planned changes. Other users can then copyedit the planned changes if there are issues with spelling, grammar and WP:MOS. Very major changes can also be objected of course and will be disabandoned if consensus disagrees.
If anyone sees any huge obstacles with this idea please let me know. I expect the users who agree to this to stop any major editing to the main India article until a consensus forms. Only minor changes and vandalism reverts would be allowed. This page is where essentially all the WP:BOLDness can be unleashed. Gizza Discuss © 13:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, In keeping with DaGizza's suggestions, I have created a peer-review and sandbox subpage Talk:India/Text Peer Review and Sandbox (shortcut WP:TITPRS). It is modeled on the picture peer review for Featured Pictures, but in addition includes a Work Area or Sandbox. The page describes how to request text for peer review or communal edit, with a demo example, DemoText. Please take a look at it. The page is for text that can vary in size from a sentence up to a large paragraph (approx. 250 words), but is not for entire sections of the India page. Indeed one the underlying principles of the page is that addition of new text is best done in manageable bits. I will set up a list of volunteer "reviewers" on that page as well. Please let me know what you think and please sign up if you like the idea. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 15:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
So I'm kind of confused. So by signingup, one would promise not to make edits without first doing it in the sandbox, then showing everyone, making sure its okay, and then adding it to the India page? Nikkul 20:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I have created two sandboxes, one each for the Economy and Demographics sections. I dumped the 'stable' versions of both sections on the respective pages and then proceeded to bring over the new additons/expansions. Please check the history of the two pages to understand. After bringing over the new additions, I proceeded to cpedit the economy page and have somewhat 'normalised' it to include both rueben/Otolemur's additions and the text that already existed. Of course, there were some repetitions and I got rid of them. I request that editors take a look at it and just start editing it. The titpr idea seems lame to me in that I fear there will be more talk and less work. Sarvagnya 18:10, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
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user:Sarvagnya has continued to insert Yakshagana in the list of classical dances in the culture section. Although in section Talk:India#Yakshagana , I have provided irrefutable evidence (including a signed Encyclopaedia Britannica article written by some of the best known experts on South Asian arts all of whose web sites I have provided) that Yakshagana is considered to be traditional theatre and not classical dance, user:Sarvagnya and user:KNM have continued to revert the page to their version with edit summaries that don't make sense. In one edit summary user:KNM claimed that it was a classical folk art form. Even if that were accurate, it would not make it classical dance but rather classical theatre (the term for which is "traditional theatre"). Consequently, it would not be listed with the other dances like Bharatanatyam and Odissi. In another edit summary user:Sarvagnya wrote (see here), "Yakshagana is Classical, the same way Kannada is classical.. politically motivated babudom doesnt get to decide classicality of humanities for a 'pedia." Again, I don't know what that means, but the signed Encyclopaedia article says clearly that Yakshagana is folk theatre. I request that Yakshagana be removed from the list of classical dances. If and when we have a section or a paragraph on "Folk and Tribal Culture of India" (which includes classical forms), we can reconsider Yakshagana's inclusion. Since the Yakshagana edit had nothing to do with the later edit wars that shut the page down, I request that this edit be made; otherwise, Wikipedia will be putting out inaccurate information with full awareness of the inaccuracies. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
[7] Yakshagana is no more or no less theater than Kathakali is, for example. If the Enc. Britannica calls it "theater"(as in drama/skit), they dont know what they're talking about or more likely that you dont know what they're talking about. And Yakshagana is not a "folk" art in the strictest sense of the word either. Yakshagana too, like all other classical dances of India traces and attributes its technique to the encyclopediac "Natya Shastra" - the same Natya Shastra to which kathakali and manipuri and bharatanatyam and almost all dance forms of India owe alliegiance to. The theme and subject of the performances are also drawn from the Mahabharata, Ramayana or the Puranas unlike "folk" or "tribal" arts. For a more in depth view into it, get your hands on this book by Shivarama Karanth [8], no less, and take your ill informed nonsense elsewhere. Sarvagnya 17:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I produce a signed Encyclopaedia Britannica article on "South Asian Arts" written by some of the world's best known experts: Sivaramamurti, Calambur, J. A. B. van Buitenen, Edward C. Dimock, C.M. Naim, A.K. Ramanujan, Nazir Ali Jairazbhoy, Balwant Gargi, Pramod Chandra and in addition the website of the Sangeet Natak Academi (The National Academy of Music, Dance and Drama of India); in contrast, user:Sarvagnya has produced a one-paragraph advertisement in the Hindu newspaper: [9], a page from a tourist travel guide, whose reference to "Yakshagana" says in its entirety, "Karnataka Janapada and Yakshagana Academy (Tel. 2215509), Canara Finance building, Nrupathunga Rd, hold folk music and dance performances, including (obviously) Yakshagana dance from the Mangalore region." and [10] a video from YouTube: [11] [12]. His tourist guide, BTW, seems to suggest that Yakshagana is Folk Dance. What is this, an attempt at farce?
According to the signed Encyclopaedia Britannica article, Sivaramamurti, Calambur, J. A. B. van Buitenen, Edward C. Dimock, C.M. Naim, A.K. Ramanujan, Nazir Ali Jairazbhoy, Balwant Gargi, Pramod Chandra "South Asian arts: Techniques and Types of Classical Dance" From: Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 12 Oct. 2007, "Four distinct schools of classical Indian dance—bharata-natya, kathakali, kathak, and manipuri—exist in the 20th century ... In 1958 the Sangeet Natak Akademi (National Academy of Music, Dance and Drama) in New Delhi bestowed classical status on two other schools of dance—kuchipudi, from Andhra Pradesh, and orissi, from Orissa." Yakshagana is not in that list. The Britannica article was written in 1979 (so it is dated) in terms of what might be the classical dance forms in 2007, as designated by the Sangeet Natak Academy; however, in the section "South Asian arts: Folk Theatre", which is a completely different section from "Dance," the Britannica article does say:
“ | After the decline of Sanskrit drama, folk theatre developed in various regional languages from the 14th through the 19th centuries ... The most crystalized forms are the jatra of Bengal, the nautanki, ramlila, and raslila of North India, the bhavai of Gujarat, the tamasha of Maharashtra, the terukkuttu of Tamil Nadu, and the yaksagana of Kanara. | ” |
The Sangeet Natak Academi (India's National Academy of Music, Dance and Drama) website itself says, (see here):
“ | More than 25 important forms of traditional and folk theatre from different States will be featured together with traditional forms of the respective States of the North-East. These will include such well-known traditions as Tamasha of Maharashtra, Bhavai of Gujarat, Yakshagana of Karnataka, Therukoothu of Tamil Nadu, Nautanki of Uttar Pradesh, Prahlad Natak of Orissa | ” |
The Sangeet Natak Academi website lists eight classical dance forms: Bharatanatyam, Kathak, Kathakali, Kuchipudi, Manipuri, Mohiniattam, Odissi, and Sattriya, one folk dance form, Chau, and Creative Dance/Choreography as the areas it makes its major national awards in (see here).
The Yakshagana Cultural Magazine, itself considers Yakshagana to be a "theater form" and not a "dance form." See: yakshagana.com and click on "introduction." and read quote: "Being a theatre form, unlike a dance form, it is more plural(istic) and dynamic.") Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Bottom Line: Why don't we Request a Mediation, and let the Mediation Committee decide who has the more Reliable Sources backing them up? Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
“ | When I use the word 'folk' here, I dont mean in any disparaging sense. Its components like music, dance and costume are highly sophisticated and cannot be mastered without long study and practise. To me, Yakshagana is as classical as Bharata Natya or Karnataki or Hindustani music. The term 'folk' is used here in the sense that all along its patrons have been the people at large and not the royalty. Its artists belong to the very class of villagers who often throng to these all night performances | ” |
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User Otolemur in
this edit removed a large fragment of the sentence:
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company from the early eighteenth century and colonised by the United Kingdom from the mid-nineteenth century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after a struggle for independence that was marked by widespread use of nonviolent resistance as a means of social protest. | ” |
without any edit summary or explanation of his action (let alone his motivations). Furthermore, what remains now:
“ | Gradually annexed by the British East India Company from the early eighteenth century and colonised by the United Kingdom from the mid-nineteenth century, India became a modern nation-state in 1947 after struggle for independence. | ” |
is not only missing an article, but is abrupt and tautological. Since this edit too, of a sentence that had been stable since last November, had no connection with the subsequent edit-wars linked to the lock-down, I request that it be reverted and the original text be reinstated. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
User Otolemur has not only added subsections to the India page, but to the United States and Pakistan pages as well. On the US page his edits have changed the Table of Contents from this to this, and given his editing pattern on that page, he is likely to add more subsections there. He did the same on the Pakistan page, but after being challenged there, decided to temporarily back off. Since some of his newly created subsections on the Pakistan page were three lines long, and those on the currently locked-down India page are only a hair's breadth longer, his approach appears to be one of selecting subtopics and creating the subsections first and then filling them up with text. I am myself of the opposite school. I prefer to add the content first, to develop it, and only then, if the text suggests it (by its theme and length), do I create subsections. I am not necessarily against subsections, but I prefer to create them towards the end of text development; besides, I feel that this early straight-jacketing of contents prevents exploration of themes that might otherwise arise.
Since the India page is currently locked down–consequently, since time is of the essence–and since one of the bones of contention antecedent to the lock-down was the creation of the many subsections, I suggest that we conduct a simple straw poll rather than pursue more protracted forms of consensus building. Please cast your vote below. Please sign.
I think if we can put this (minor) issue behind us, we can proceed with more important issues such as what new sections are needed (if any) and how much to expand the article by (if at all), and get the show back on the road. Regards, Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
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Obviously, this doesn't need to be edited immediately, but the second paragraph has some serial comma issues. It's important for consistency above all, here. The text of my suggested change follows, to replace the second sentence of the second paragraph of the introduction.
Four major world religions---Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism---originated here, while Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism arrived in the first millennium CE and shaped the region's variegated culture.
-- AaronRosenberg 22:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I have started making use of this page. I intially only wanted to copyedit a sentence on health in the demographics section but I then realised the references citing the sentence don't exactly say what is stated in the article. Gizza Discuss © 23:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
This sentence was recently added to the article: "Science and technology in India forms a major commitemnet for both the Govt and Private sector in India. India posseses one of the world's largest scientific and technological infrastructure and manpower, which in [[2006] was worth Rs 30 billion, up from the Rs 10 million in [[1947]."
Ignoring the choppy sentence structure, I have serious issues with the verifiability of some of things it stays. My argument is based on some reasonable assumptions, as follows,
Now, the only clear evidence that has been presented so far in support of this statement is that the above statement was made by the High Commisioner of India in London (can someone actually give me that link, I have missed it). I state that the high commissioner of India in London cannot be regarded as a credible evidence for such a statement. If we were to use every public figures statement as a credible evidence, articles on countries like China and Pakistan might look very different.
The evidence that I present is as follows,
So, my point is that even though India has made great strides in science and technology, she is still behind the developed nations in terms of funding and infrastructure available for science. As a result, lot of Indian students go to the west for doing their PhD and also settle there due to lack of funding and exciting research being done in India. The sentence in its present form goes against assumption #2 and makes it seem like India is at the forefront of research. As such, it really needs to be rephrased heavily. -- Blacksun 09:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Since the straw poll for sub-sections seems to be moving along, I thought it might be time to have a straw poll for new additions. I have created a set of choices below which allow the voter to choose between anything from no expansion to the addition of a full section. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Definition: A Large paragraph is approximately 250 to 300 words; a small paragraph is 125 to 150 words. Those are the approximate upper limits.
Finally, the last issue that is dogging the page–the problem of images. Rotation of images was proposed by some people and opposed by others. I had originally created a simple straw poll below, but since some votes were ambiguous, I have clarified the categories, so that there is no confusion. Since a number of people have already expressed their opinions, I am adding their names (for or against). Please correct if I have made a mistake. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:58, 15 October 2007 (UTC) Updated: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 16:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Just to clarify my position, I am not totally against a rotational system (this was what I wrote before There is some benefit in a "rotation" system but the biggest problem with it is that the image debate will never go away. Half of the discussions here would be forever about images. Perhaps we should try to feature pictures from regions not represented here at the moment, add those and leave it there.) but I do other some other concerns. One of the criteria in WP:WIAFA is stability. Traditionally, it has nearly always referred edit wars and drastic content changes, not image changes. However, if one sees inactive WP:STABLE, WP:FLAGGED and WP:1.0, you will notice that stable versions of articles will be of importance for Wikipedia in the future. Regardless of its quality, the India article has high priority and a particular version may be tagged as "stable" in the future. Gizza Discuss © 22:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, though I doubt anybody has thought of the range of images that will used, I would be keen to know how regional balance will be brought about. I think it would be unfair to give every state and union territory equal coverage, because would be giving WP:UNDUE weight to some of the tiny states. At the same time, using a previous example, giving 300 times the coverage to Uttar Pradesh than Sikkim is unrealistic too. These issues would be need to be discussed before any application of a rotation system. Gizza Discuss © 22:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
We all agree that one image can never represent Indian culture in its entirety. Rotating images can get closer to doing this than having one image and saying THIS represents India in all forms. Nikkul 17:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
One small observation -- all the talk about rotation seem to be for appeasing *editors* of the article, and NOT the *readers*. One common argument I see above is regional balance. Well, that again is for appeasing editors from different regions ... who want to see an image from their region showed here. But we are forgetting that the actual readers of the page are likely to be people who want to know about India, and would come to the page for learning about it in a nutshell. Do the pro-rotation editors think that users will come to the page again and again in each rotation cycle, so that the rotation of images will give them a regionally-balanced view? I hardly think so. Thanks. -- Ragib 18:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
In order to avoid an edit war both the images have been removed. Tagore's image has not gone under the scanner(ie.voted for) till now hence its unfair to replace the Toda pic with it. PS:Those who voted against Toda never said that their vote implied support *for* Tagore.Eg. Blacksun doest want the Tagore image. Nikkul wanted the image of Akshardham and Thoreulylazy wanted a pic of Thanjavur.
Whereas Toda had no clear consensus (against:for =17:18 or if Amargg's vote is added will be 18:18). Though "no consensus" should imply 'keep' (thats what is the rule in AfD). But still I removed it cause I am not so sure about that. Knowledge Hegemony 17:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) I think the picture of Sakuntala is a wonderful idea. In addition to what Fowler's said, it seems to me that it simultaneously represents several aspects of Indian culture - the high Sanskritic culture represented by Kalidasa's play, the folk culture of which the Sakuntala story has become part, and recent art as represented by the use of a Ravi Varma painting. I really don't know what to say in reply to the suggestion that Kalidasa's works are less notable than Tagore. If google hits are going to be the criterion, Aishwarya Rai (1.93 million) and Amitabh Bachchan (1.73 million) produce more hits than Rabindranath Tagore (1.48 million), which is a fine example of why we don't use Google to decide what's more notable. -- Arvind 22:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
This is the photoshopped image by user Nikkul: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NorthBlock.jpg
This is the original image: http://flickr.com/photos/nimrodbar/31437132/
I have serious quality issues with the photoshopped image: tacky and cgi "fake" looking - like one of those concept images for a new building that is planned. Nikkul mirrored one half of the image and pasted it on the other half to "get rid of the people" - and also did some lighting effects. So now we have people who should not be there + the image looks fake on inspection - because well it is fake! I discussed this with Nikkul about it but we seem to disagree on this. I would like to know what other people think. I find the original image just fine (with the people). -- Blacksun 09:02, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Why are we calling Yakshagana a dance form when it is a type of theater as shown by Fowler with half a dozen credible citations? If you want to mention Yakshagana then hammer out an acceptable line for folk theater in the culture section instead of giving false information to the reader. If you disagree with categorizing Yakshagana as folk theater instead of dance then please provide some evidence. I might have missed the dance form sides reasoning in all the other things that came up recently.-- Blacksun 11:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
“ |
Indian music covers a wide range of traditions and regional styles.
Classical music is split mainly between the North Indian
Hindustani and South Indian
Carnatic traditions. Famous representatives of Hindustani tradition are
shehnai-player
Ustad Bismillah Khan and
sitarist
Pandit Ravi Shankar and of the Carnatic tradition, vocalist
M. S. Subbulakshmi and
mridangam-player
Palghat Mani Iyer. Highly regionalised forms of popular music include
filmi and
folk music; the syncretic tradition of the
bauls of
Bengal is one of the best known forms of the latter.
Indian dance too has diverse folk and classical forms. Among the well-known folk dances are the bhangra of the Punjab, the bihu of Assam, the chhau of Bihar and Orissa and the ghoomar of Rajasthan. Eight dance forms, many with narrative forms and infused with devotional and mythological elements have been accorded classical dance status by the Sangeet Natak Academi, India's National Academy of Music, Dance, and Drama. These are: bharatanatyam of the state of Tamil Nadu, kathak of Uttar Pradesh, kathakali and mohiniattam of Kerala, kuchipudi of Andhra Pradesh, manipuri of Manipur, odissi of the state of Orissa, and sattriya of Assam. [2] The last named, traditionally performed by celibate monks of the Vaishnavite tradition, most notably on Majuli island in the Brahmaputra, is now performed by both women and laymen. [2] India has many forms of traditional and folk theatre, which include music, dance, and improvised or written dialogue. Often based in Hindu mythology, but, in addition, incorporating elements from medieval romances, and news of social and political events, these forms include the bhavai of state of Gujarat, the jatra of West Bengal, the nautanki and ramlila of North India, the tamasha of Maharashtra, the terukkuttu of Tamil Nadu, and the yakshagana of Karanataka. [3] Yakshagana, in particular, has undergone innovation in dance and theatre, which includes performances of Shakespeare. [4] |
” |
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 11:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC) Last update: Fowler&fowler «Talk» 11:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Whatever you guys used to end the "new additions" dispute, you should use it for the Shakuntala-Tagore dispute. Saravask 05:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Sarvagnya made a number of edits yesterday whose edit summaries once again fail to rise to an acceptable level of clarity or accuracy. Here are the edit summaries:
Comment:I dont understand why anyone would pick an image of the person that is Tagore over an example of art and literature that is Recognition of Sakuntala. Adding an image of Tagore does very little to the overall value of the article. Why? Because the image does not increase the value of the text regarding Tagore. The picture is just an image of a man. He is not famous for his picture but his great literature and deeds which are already mentioned in the article. I just dont understand why this is so hard to understand?? -- Blacksun 12:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: The fact that a few people have studied something (like the todas or shak) and published something on the internet doesnt mean it has to be included on wiki india.Image is also unclear. I'd prefer a temple or diwali image, but if that cant be done, i prefer tagore over shak Nikkul 23:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment - Nobody here needs any education in Kalidasa's stature and standing and we could do with a little less dumping of random info and filling of pages by Fowler. That said, the fallacy lies in even pitting Tagore and Kalidasa against each other. Thats comparing apples and oranges and downright ridiculous. It is the likes of Tagore that have saved the Kalidasas and the Ravi Varmas and the Manipuri dance and other art forms for posterity. Tagore brought the 'out of sight, out of mind' northeast into the national mainstream through his efforts in rejuvenating Manipuri dance. Kalidasa did no such thing. Kalidasa may have been a great poet and all that, but saying that he was the greatest of any age to write anything is streching it too far. I could argue that Sangita Ratnakara by Sharngadeva is the greatest literary work pertaining to "Culture". As far as pure literary content goes, Kalidasa may have few peers but it can easily be argued that the Sangita Ratnakara had a far more profound impact on Indian culture than abhignyanashakuntalam. It is, after all, the bible of all classical music in India - all of India. Both Hindustani and Carnatic traditions revere it and draw their most basic concepts from it.
The point I'm trying to make is, if we kept fishing, we can keep adding names and works to the article. And then, we can backdoor images like the "recognition" of shakuntala which ride solely on contrived and clumsily fitted sentences. Yes, I am arguing that not just the image but even the very mention of Kalidasa doesnt belong in this article. Kalidasa's works, towering as he is/was, dont compare with the the Ramayana or the Mahabharata. I would have no problem with the Kalidasa pic once we have rotation in place. If we cant have rotation, then we cant have Kalidasa. Not unless the the article is expanded. We cant have selective expansion just to suit somebody's POV. These are the same people who come up with word counts of other people's contributions and troll no end on talk pages about why it shouldnt be kept. So its time they walk the talk. We dont keep humoring nonsense forever. Sarvagnya 19:44, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Do we know for sure that the tiger is a Bengal tiger? The coloring, the paw-size, and body proportion look Siberian to me, but I could be wrong. If we don't know that it is a Bengal tiger, then it should be removed. Thanks. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 17:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Guess this edit stops the relentless nitpicking and abuse of process in the tracks. Sarvagnya 19:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay so I've been seeing random images of animals and now of culture under something called an imagefile. I'd just like to know
Nikkul 06:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I have tried adding a couple images under people...If you could please tell me in detail how to add images,that would be great. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikkul ( talk • contribs) 02:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This follows up on earlier discussions in the sections Yakshagana, Reliable Sources Not YouTube on Yakshagana, Shivarama Karanth's Book on Yakshagana, and Yakshagana Redux. The current sentence on music and dance in the culture section, which includes Yakshagana in its list of classical dances, reads:
“ | Indian music covers a wide range of traditions and regional styles. Classical music is mainly split between the North Indian Hindustani and South Indian Carnatic traditions. Highly regionalised forms of popular music include filmi and folk music like bhangra. Many classical dance forms exist, including bharatanatyam, kathakali, kathak, kuchipudi, manipuri, odissi and yakshagana. They often have a narrative form and are usually infused with devotional and mythological elements. | ” |
The three choices for voting are:
This choice replaces the current paragraph above with the three short paragraphs (one each for music, dance and theatre) shown in Fowler&fowler's post (immediately following Blacksun's post) here
Votes:
This choice removes only Yakshagana from the list of classical dances in the current version displayed above.
Votes:
This choice keeps the current version of the paragraph (unaltered).
Votes:
From what I have observed, I think rotation is great. Over the last few visits to the actual article, I saw different faces of India esp the fauna section and also the culture section that I had never known existed (like the longtail squirrel) . I know that we have some ways to go before the image files are finalized, but I think this concept is very very progressive.
I think its the only way to solve the problem of showing India in all its forms instead of limiting Indian culture to just the Taj Mahal and the Toda Hut. And being one of the first people who brought this concept to the India page, I am very happy that of its success. I am actually very impressed by how much I can learn each time I visit the culture section or the fauna section.
To anyone who opposes the rotation, I'd like to ask them how they intend to solve the problem of showing India's cuisine, dress, dance, festivals, architecture, literature, sports, traditions, etc. etc. etc. in 2 pictures. Nikkul 07:36, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that is going to happen pretty soon...thats also what i had imagined and I think that we're going to do that very soon. I love how the rotation has virtually eliminated the debate about Tagore, something else, or Toda. It has ended edit wars, etc. Nikkul 14:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This is an involved point, so please bear with me. Although I had suggested rotation on this page in November 2006 (see F&f rotation1, F&f rotation2, F&f rotation3), I hadn't then thought about it with any care. More recently I came to oppose rotation because I didn't see it solving the so-called problem of balanced image content for the average reader, who likely doesn't go to the article enough times to catch all the images. This was the subject of my post Why rotation doesn't make sense; Ragib made the same point more eloquently in his post here. In the end, I voted to support rotation with the FP-quality condition in the straw poll above, thinking that image quality was the biggest problem related to rotation. However, even if all our images were Featured Pictures, there potentially is an even bigger problem looming ahead: the danger of all images becoming vanilla images, and leaving no affect or memory in the typical reader.
This struck me only this morning, when I was looking again at some of the images in the Encarta article on India. One of them, in particular, had struck me many months before when I first saw it. The picture shows a music class in the Veena in progress in Chennai, with four girls, each holding their instrument, and listening to their teacher. Under it was this caption:
“ | The Kalakshetras school of dance and music is located in Chennai (formerly Madras), India. These students are learning to play the vina, a traditional instrument in classical Indian music. This school is for the wealthier members of Indian society. Education for the majority of the population remains a problem due to lack of funds and the large number of different languages and cultures within the country. | ” |
One of the points that the caption makes, that "classical culture" is the province increasingly of the wealthy few, is a subtle point and bears repetition when it is made visually. I, most certainly, had almost forgotten the image, even though it was one of my more vivid experiences from that Encarta article. The image's many points would most certainly have been lost, had the image been replaced by another image making some other point. Memorable images require return visits. They require stability within the text, for them to settle in, as it were, in our consciousness. This to me potentially is the ultimate emptiness about rotations; they could turn even well-crafted images into vanilla images. Either the complex points like that in the Veena caption will not be made, or, when made, will not stick, because of their profusion.
People don't have to reply to this post, since it is a conjecture; however, I would be happy if they think about this possibility as this rotation trial unfolds this week. Meanwhile, however, I am changing my vote to "against rotation." Fowler&fowler «Talk» 18:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Could this Encyclopedia Britannica article about Bihar that states "The state is divided into seven administrative divisions and 39 districts.", along with similar ones work as citations for "In larger states, districts may be grouped together to form a division." that has been tagged with a [citation needed].-- Keynes John Maynard 20:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
When it comes to facts about India, govt of India should and willl be the final authority. Somebody (seemingly peeved at the fact that 7500 > 7000) has changed the statement concerning the length of Indian coast line. That guy ( I beleive green-something) thibks that since CIA website says that the length of Indian coastline is 7000, that figure should be there. That green-something should refer the following govt of India link to get his facts right: http://india.gov.in/knowindia/profile.php. The coastline lenght is 7500 and not 7000. I am presently not able to see the edit button (blv the article is in semi-protected state courtesy overzealous and numerous incursions from the likes of Green-something) ELSE would have restoed sanity at once.
An aside for green-something: In addition to being an enviro friendly color, green also signifies something else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Texankudiya ( talk • contribs) 16:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Green*, with the kind of activity that can be seen around your name, it will be naivete to presume that your are not aware of Govt of India resources. Your misplaced zeal reminds me of an old incident wherein one of our neighbours started shouting that Indian Ocean needs to be renamed coz it has 'India' in its name. You were so very prompt to change the stat of 7.5k to 7k. Good alacrity!! Whether CIA wants to mislead or not is besides the point, what is important to note here is that whatever an institution of CIA'a calibre and stature does is not without reason or agenda. Definitely, when they do it, there will be reasons behind seemingly the most inoccuous ommissions or commissions. Get out of your unifocality, dear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.135.192 ( talk) 04:21, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Green Guys are not expected to be so restive. Y, on universe, r u being so touchy. My "...so much of activity " stuff seems to have ignited incomprehensible ferocity. Stay cool, uncle. As for your 'partisan' rejoinders, my research seems to point otherwise. Anyways, authenticity has been the beneficiary of this spat. I am glad that my activism has paid expected and positive dividends. Texankudiya 11:21, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Isn't this Image of the same statue better? -- Lokantha 03:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Did anyone observed that the offical map of India has a cut on its top? Samething carried out in "Free Access To All Human Knowledge” A Video Appeal From Wikipedia Founder Jimmy Wales " video clipping too. Has Indian govt. accepted the new map or what? The maps displayed along with the article are fine but the map displayed as offical locator on earth has a cut on the top, same also in the video clipping of wikipedia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.236.243.16 ( talk) 01:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I swear I thought this was the talk India page where people discuss things about this article. If you have a problem with Sarvagnyas edits about chikens, discuss them on the chicken page which is not this one (i think)
Nikkul
07:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)hey KNM, why did you have to change the section heading? you just robbed the poor guy the chance to wallow in his adolescence. hmm.. never mind, I'm sure he will come up with another gem. for now, this chicken and fowl spectacle sure is enough to keep us amused for the next few days. :)
Sarvagnya
16:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I suggest we leave out the mention that chicken sugar etc originated in India. Such a fact (contentious/little known) needs to be backed by more references, and we could very well expand on it on the article of cuisine of India. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Why is "Subdivisions of India" required as a separate section on the page? There is a navigation box for "States and territories of India". The map with all the states marked on it, along with the three column list of states and UTs, does not look good on the page and doesn't really inform a reader much about India, other than the first sentence, which could simply be integrated to another section. The list is really not required there, is it? Has there been a discussion on these lines before? I'll shut up if there has been one. The US page doesn't have a similar list, and countries like Australia with just a few states, or UK with its mention of its four parts can't be the reference. Then again, there could be many arguments in favor of sticking to the list that is in place, like somebody is going to point out. -- Keynes John Maynard 21:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
1) I find Amba vilas place image not important enough to be part of the rotation system.
2) I find the image quality to be poor. Only thing you can tell is that it is a big structure with small domes on top.
3) It has very suspicious and non-qualified caption: "Most visited tourist attraction in India"
If rotation is going to be used to put images like this with captions like that in the article, I am afraid I made a mistake supporting it. --
Blacksun
13:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Knowledge Hegemony 11:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
"Haven't you guys understood by now that I don't put things down unless I've checked the sources. Amazing!". It is just that I dont spin "cock and bull"(as Amar puts it) stories from my sources as someone here is wont to. Sarvagnya 19:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)