![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 19 February 2024. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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There is a mistake in the text of the annotated link for Victor F. Guiel Jr. I don't know how to find or fix this, so I'll note it here. The word "accident" is missing a 'c'. Also, it looks as though the name of the vessel is misspelled. It looks like it's capital W, capital L, small d-r-a-k-e - Jkgree ( talk) 21:23, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
On 19 February 2024, this article was nominated for deletion, putting this helpful navigation aid and reference work, and the extensive effort that went into its development and maintenance, at risk.
Below, is a close analysis of the nomination, and issues related to it, to help better understand the situation and to be more fully prepared in case anything similar happens in the future...
The nomination was "Don't need a comprehensive list of all notable underwater divers, this is what Category:Underwater divers and its subcategories are for. Fails WP:NOTDIRECTORY."
This is an example of a battle in the age old categories versus lists war. This conflict has been going on since the creation of the category system. The category system was introduced in 2004. [1] (Wikipedia was created near the beginning of 2001). [2]
For navigation, before categories, the encyclopedia had lists (and still does), including item lists and topics lists. Item lists present a class of things, such as in the List of dog breeds. Topics lists, which technically are a type of item list (topics are items), list the subtopics of a subject. There are two types of topics lists: alphabetical indexes and hierarchical outlines, though the terms "Outline" and "Index" weren't introduced into article titles until 15 June 2008 [3] and 28 March 2009 [4], respectively. (To find the rest that weren't renamed using those terms, search for articles with the word "topics" in their titles).
The very first list on Wikipedia was its 8th article, created on 16 Jan 2001. So, lists have been on Wikipedia since its 2nd day in existence. [5] (HomePage was the first article on Wikipedia, created on 15 Jan 2001, and is now the Main Page).
Wikipedia's first list was "CountriesOfTheWorld", which was later renamed to "Countries of the World", and is now titled List of sovereign states.
The list system was not replaced by categories, and still exists today, much larger and more developed than ever. Though, they have been under near continual attack, by editors who prefer the category system, ever since categories arrived on the scene.
Why?
Redundancy.
There is a natural tendency to want to streamline navigation to make it more efficient. Having a single navigation system would, in theory, reduce the amount of work required to have multiple navigation systems.
But, things haven't turned out that way, because the category system is flawed. Wikipedia has many list-based navigation systems: more than 30 of them. [6] They haven't been removed in favor of categories, because categories can't provide the same benefits that the other types of lists deliver.
Wikipedia's categories do some things well, but monumentally fail in other ways. [7] Here are some of the ways that categories fall short of conventional page-based lists:
So then, why do deletion nominations, that proclaim "we don't need a particular list because we have categories", sometimes succeed? Here are some possibilities:
It is much easier to destroy than it is to build and maintain. Lists are subject to deletion in the face of category favoritism, and because of this, lists have become plagued by the two-steps-forward-one-step-back phenomenon.
What are some solutions?
To sum up, the main gist of the above is "don't take it lying down." Push back against category favoritism.
I hope the above observations and comments help you in thinking about this recurrent problem. Please feel free to ask questions, point out anything I missed, and to continue this discussion...
Sincerely, —
The Transhumanist 20:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
P.S.: @
Pbsouthwood: ping.
Above, I countered the "all we need is categories" argument, and forgot to address this one.
The policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a directory, does not apply to topics lists (outlines and indexes) because those are accepted navigation aids, with their own guidelines, their own wikiprojects, and in the case of outlines, a how to support page.
If one topics list doesn't meet NOTDIRECTORY, for being an article list, then none of them pass. Which means you'd have to delete them all.
A deletion discussion about an individual page is not the proper venue for arguing against the existence of an entire class of article. Nominations to delete on these grounds should include all of the pages in the class, and a deletion notice placed at the top of every single page of that type...
Such a nomination will not succeed, since NOTDIRECTORY does not apply, because...
They are lists of Wikipedia articles. Categories are also lists of Wikipedia articles. If topics lists fail NOTDIRECTORY, then so do categories.
Cheers, — The Transhumanist 21:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 19 February 2024. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated List-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
There is a mistake in the text of the annotated link for Victor F. Guiel Jr. I don't know how to find or fix this, so I'll note it here. The word "accident" is missing a 'c'. Also, it looks as though the name of the vessel is misspelled. It looks like it's capital W, capital L, small d-r-a-k-e - Jkgree ( talk) 21:23, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
On 19 February 2024, this article was nominated for deletion, putting this helpful navigation aid and reference work, and the extensive effort that went into its development and maintenance, at risk.
Below, is a close analysis of the nomination, and issues related to it, to help better understand the situation and to be more fully prepared in case anything similar happens in the future...
The nomination was "Don't need a comprehensive list of all notable underwater divers, this is what Category:Underwater divers and its subcategories are for. Fails WP:NOTDIRECTORY."
This is an example of a battle in the age old categories versus lists war. This conflict has been going on since the creation of the category system. The category system was introduced in 2004. [1] (Wikipedia was created near the beginning of 2001). [2]
For navigation, before categories, the encyclopedia had lists (and still does), including item lists and topics lists. Item lists present a class of things, such as in the List of dog breeds. Topics lists, which technically are a type of item list (topics are items), list the subtopics of a subject. There are two types of topics lists: alphabetical indexes and hierarchical outlines, though the terms "Outline" and "Index" weren't introduced into article titles until 15 June 2008 [3] and 28 March 2009 [4], respectively. (To find the rest that weren't renamed using those terms, search for articles with the word "topics" in their titles).
The very first list on Wikipedia was its 8th article, created on 16 Jan 2001. So, lists have been on Wikipedia since its 2nd day in existence. [5] (HomePage was the first article on Wikipedia, created on 15 Jan 2001, and is now the Main Page).
Wikipedia's first list was "CountriesOfTheWorld", which was later renamed to "Countries of the World", and is now titled List of sovereign states.
The list system was not replaced by categories, and still exists today, much larger and more developed than ever. Though, they have been under near continual attack, by editors who prefer the category system, ever since categories arrived on the scene.
Why?
Redundancy.
There is a natural tendency to want to streamline navigation to make it more efficient. Having a single navigation system would, in theory, reduce the amount of work required to have multiple navigation systems.
But, things haven't turned out that way, because the category system is flawed. Wikipedia has many list-based navigation systems: more than 30 of them. [6] They haven't been removed in favor of categories, because categories can't provide the same benefits that the other types of lists deliver.
Wikipedia's categories do some things well, but monumentally fail in other ways. [7] Here are some of the ways that categories fall short of conventional page-based lists:
So then, why do deletion nominations, that proclaim "we don't need a particular list because we have categories", sometimes succeed? Here are some possibilities:
It is much easier to destroy than it is to build and maintain. Lists are subject to deletion in the face of category favoritism, and because of this, lists have become plagued by the two-steps-forward-one-step-back phenomenon.
What are some solutions?
To sum up, the main gist of the above is "don't take it lying down." Push back against category favoritism.
I hope the above observations and comments help you in thinking about this recurrent problem. Please feel free to ask questions, point out anything I missed, and to continue this discussion...
Sincerely, —
The Transhumanist 20:55, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
P.S.: @
Pbsouthwood: ping.
Above, I countered the "all we need is categories" argument, and forgot to address this one.
The policy Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a directory, does not apply to topics lists (outlines and indexes) because those are accepted navigation aids, with their own guidelines, their own wikiprojects, and in the case of outlines, a how to support page.
If one topics list doesn't meet NOTDIRECTORY, for being an article list, then none of them pass. Which means you'd have to delete them all.
A deletion discussion about an individual page is not the proper venue for arguing against the existence of an entire class of article. Nominations to delete on these grounds should include all of the pages in the class, and a deletion notice placed at the top of every single page of that type...
Such a nomination will not succeed, since NOTDIRECTORY does not apply, because...
They are lists of Wikipedia articles. Categories are also lists of Wikipedia articles. If topics lists fail NOTDIRECTORY, then so do categories.
Cheers, — The Transhumanist 21:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)