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The "Watchman Herald" link has no place on this page. This paper is published by members of the non-instrumental Churches of Christ; I'm not really sure if it would be considered as "mainstream" even among them. Please quit just sticking the link onto this page; if you insist on doing so, please at least show the rest of us the courtsey of establishing an account, logging on to this page, and justifying what you are doing to the rest of us so that we can discuss it.
Rlquall 15:43, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to change the list of churches to list them by state then country. The current list is poorly organized at best.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ckvkkeek ( talk • contribs) 14:15, September 22, 2006
Based upon the emerging consensus here, and Wikipedia guidelines, I have removed the List of Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ section. The current websites included under External links will direct any interested reader to the information, and there are some other options mentioned above which would not overwhelm this article. -- Satori Son 18:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This article states as a fact that "During this time the DoC made several attempts to take over facility and property ownership from many Independent congregations and Independents attempted to take over facility and property ownership from many DoC congregations. In this 45+ years both types of congregations were forced to seek legal representation. Representation was necessary in order to maintain ownership of their property and to prevent eviction and forfeiture of assets." There are debates about how much this happened. If there were legal cases they should be referenced; if you make a claim like "many churches" than some survey should be cited. Atterlep 22:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
While the Bible would be an appropriate source in an article written by a member of the church to explain the reasons for a doctrine, it isn't the appropriate kind of source to verify that a doctrine is indeed practiced by the independent Christian Churches and Churches of Christ. I've removed the Bible verses that were used as sources for specific CoC beliefs, but they'll need to be replaced with sources writing specifically about this group of churches, and I know that many of the most useful of those are in books that I don't have. If anyone out there can provide better sources, that would be groovy. - FisherQueen ( talk · contribs) 21:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Where did that logo come from? Given the autonomous nature of these congregations, I have major doubts that any of them accept it as a corporate logos for their strain of the CoC. jonathon ( talk) 02:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest that the baptism section needs some rework, as it is at odds with the practice in many of the ICC/CoC churches, who believe in salvation by grace alone, and that baptism is the public expression of the inward change upon acceptance of Christ. If you look at the statements of faith from many (if not most) of the major ICC/CoC churches, they would be at odds with what is recorded in this article.
Example from the largest ICC/CoC (Louisville Southeast) < http://www.southeastchristian.org/sqa/life.aspx?id=168 here>:
As it is written, though, I'm not sure you'd get most churches to agree with the characterization put forth.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 18:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
This section very much sounds like advocacy cloaked in descriptive language. The objections raised by "those of a Calvinistic" persuasion and the counterpoints to the objection sound very much like advocacy. In addition, the use of the "proof texts" lends to the idea of advocacy. This is a description of the theology of the movement. This is not supposed to advocate. Nor are encyclopedia article supposed to be an exhaustive treatment of the rationale for positions. They need to describe and direct the reader to the right sources for more exhaustive research. I'll try to clean up the language at a later date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koine2002 ( talk • contribs) 12:03, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
As I've been a member of both Churches of Christ and Christian Churches, I question the statement that "The instrumental Christian Churches and the a cappella Churches of Christ are otherwise fundamentally identical." There are several differences, probably the most important being that Christian Churches are fundamentalist in character, while the Churches of Christ are not. I think this sentence should be removed. Dwight911 ( talk) 06:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
The current name of this page, Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ seems rather artificial. I am concerned that it comes across as a proper name, and that it is one that Wikipedia has created. I propose instead that we move the page to Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, which is more descriptive and seems less like a proper name. Furthermore, the latter gets 6 or 7 times as many hits in a Google search.
I am wondering if there is any comment before I go ahead and attempt the move. -- BlueMoonlet ( t/ c) 16:33, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
The current article name was invented by Wikipedia, but comes across as a proper name. I propose renaming it to "Christian Churches and Churches of Christ", which is more descriptive and seems less like a proper name, not to mention it gets 6 or 7 times as many hits in a Google search. However, the rename would involve a lot of collateral work, so I want to make sure there is broad support before taking action. -- BlueMoonlet ( t/ c) 18:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Support, but I don't think it's a lot of work—seems like a relatively-simple page move, and the caps are needed because these are the names of denominations. Good luck and all the best,-- Miniapolis ( talk) 15:01, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
"The Christian churches and churches of Christ are a part of the Restoration Movement ..." First concern: aren't we talking about proper names which need to be capitalized? Second concern: no citation Third concern: Factually incorrect in that "Church of Christ" can refer to more than one denomination and the lede does not distinguish them. GeoBard Semi-retired 00:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. As BlueMoonlet stated, "The article subject is in fact a common noun, not the proper name of any organization". This makes it hard to justify capitalization. Our policy on WP:Article titles doesn't have a concept of "borrowing portions of common names" as proposed by Zfish118. EdJohnston ( talk) 21:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Christian churches and churches of Christ → Christian Churches and Churches of Christ – Both uses of "churches" in the title should be capitalized. While there is no formal name for the collective grouping of churches, the title of the article here is simply borrowing portions of the proper names of individual congregations. For instance "Anytown Christian Church" and "Big City Christian Church" are affiliated only in similarity of belief, with no common church governance. However, both signify their similar beliefs using "Christian Church" in their names. The article here thus essentially concatenates parts of both church proper names; the title of the article should reflect this. -- Zfish118 ( talk) 19:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
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The "Watchman Herald" link has no place on this page. This paper is published by members of the non-instrumental Churches of Christ; I'm not really sure if it would be considered as "mainstream" even among them. Please quit just sticking the link onto this page; if you insist on doing so, please at least show the rest of us the courtsey of establishing an account, logging on to this page, and justifying what you are doing to the rest of us so that we can discuss it.
Rlquall 15:43, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to change the list of churches to list them by state then country. The current list is poorly organized at best.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ckvkkeek ( talk • contribs) 14:15, September 22, 2006
Based upon the emerging consensus here, and Wikipedia guidelines, I have removed the List of Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ section. The current websites included under External links will direct any interested reader to the information, and there are some other options mentioned above which would not overwhelm this article. -- Satori Son 18:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This article states as a fact that "During this time the DoC made several attempts to take over facility and property ownership from many Independent congregations and Independents attempted to take over facility and property ownership from many DoC congregations. In this 45+ years both types of congregations were forced to seek legal representation. Representation was necessary in order to maintain ownership of their property and to prevent eviction and forfeiture of assets." There are debates about how much this happened. If there were legal cases they should be referenced; if you make a claim like "many churches" than some survey should be cited. Atterlep 22:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
While the Bible would be an appropriate source in an article written by a member of the church to explain the reasons for a doctrine, it isn't the appropriate kind of source to verify that a doctrine is indeed practiced by the independent Christian Churches and Churches of Christ. I've removed the Bible verses that were used as sources for specific CoC beliefs, but they'll need to be replaced with sources writing specifically about this group of churches, and I know that many of the most useful of those are in books that I don't have. If anyone out there can provide better sources, that would be groovy. - FisherQueen ( talk · contribs) 21:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Where did that logo come from? Given the autonomous nature of these congregations, I have major doubts that any of them accept it as a corporate logos for their strain of the CoC. jonathon ( talk) 02:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest that the baptism section needs some rework, as it is at odds with the practice in many of the ICC/CoC churches, who believe in salvation by grace alone, and that baptism is the public expression of the inward change upon acceptance of Christ. If you look at the statements of faith from many (if not most) of the major ICC/CoC churches, they would be at odds with what is recorded in this article.
Example from the largest ICC/CoC (Louisville Southeast) < http://www.southeastchristian.org/sqa/life.aspx?id=168 here>:
As it is written, though, I'm not sure you'd get most churches to agree with the characterization put forth.-- Lyonscc ( talk) 18:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
This section very much sounds like advocacy cloaked in descriptive language. The objections raised by "those of a Calvinistic" persuasion and the counterpoints to the objection sound very much like advocacy. In addition, the use of the "proof texts" lends to the idea of advocacy. This is a description of the theology of the movement. This is not supposed to advocate. Nor are encyclopedia article supposed to be an exhaustive treatment of the rationale for positions. They need to describe and direct the reader to the right sources for more exhaustive research. I'll try to clean up the language at a later date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koine2002 ( talk • contribs) 12:03, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
As I've been a member of both Churches of Christ and Christian Churches, I question the statement that "The instrumental Christian Churches and the a cappella Churches of Christ are otherwise fundamentally identical." There are several differences, probably the most important being that Christian Churches are fundamentalist in character, while the Churches of Christ are not. I think this sentence should be removed. Dwight911 ( talk) 06:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
The current name of this page, Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ seems rather artificial. I am concerned that it comes across as a proper name, and that it is one that Wikipedia has created. I propose instead that we move the page to Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, which is more descriptive and seems less like a proper name. Furthermore, the latter gets 6 or 7 times as many hits in a Google search.
I am wondering if there is any comment before I go ahead and attempt the move. -- BlueMoonlet ( t/ c) 16:33, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
The current article name was invented by Wikipedia, but comes across as a proper name. I propose renaming it to "Christian Churches and Churches of Christ", which is more descriptive and seems less like a proper name, not to mention it gets 6 or 7 times as many hits in a Google search. However, the rename would involve a lot of collateral work, so I want to make sure there is broad support before taking action. -- BlueMoonlet ( t/ c) 18:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Support, but I don't think it's a lot of work—seems like a relatively-simple page move, and the caps are needed because these are the names of denominations. Good luck and all the best,-- Miniapolis ( talk) 15:01, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
"The Christian churches and churches of Christ are a part of the Restoration Movement ..." First concern: aren't we talking about proper names which need to be capitalized? Second concern: no citation Third concern: Factually incorrect in that "Church of Christ" can refer to more than one denomination and the lede does not distinguish them. GeoBard Semi-retired 00:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. As BlueMoonlet stated, "The article subject is in fact a common noun, not the proper name of any organization". This makes it hard to justify capitalization. Our policy on WP:Article titles doesn't have a concept of "borrowing portions of common names" as proposed by Zfish118. EdJohnston ( talk) 21:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Christian churches and churches of Christ → Christian Churches and Churches of Christ – Both uses of "churches" in the title should be capitalized. While there is no formal name for the collective grouping of churches, the title of the article here is simply borrowing portions of the proper names of individual congregations. For instance "Anytown Christian Church" and "Big City Christian Church" are affiliated only in similarity of belief, with no common church governance. However, both signify their similar beliefs using "Christian Church" in their names. The article here thus essentially concatenates parts of both church proper names; the title of the article should reflect this. -- Zfish118 ( talk) 19:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Christian churches and churches of Christ. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:24, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Note: The Archive site capitalizes the word "churches" in its naming convention