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The result was merge into Independent Baptist
I removed Cedarville University as it is not an Independent Baptist College. Cedarville was a GARBC College, however that organization is separating from Cedarville [3] [4] [5] [6] because of their close association with the Southern Baptist Convention [7] [8]. Mgroop 21:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Towards the bottom of the page, some controversial points are made without any references or sources. In fact, the whole article seems curiously devoid of any citations. Would people please try to better provide references and sources for their material from now on, particularly that which is likely to be controversial? -- Jzyehoshua 03:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
This page is in need of clean-up. However, before we go in and make some wholesale changes, I thought it best to voice my concerns here. First, the very nature of "Independent Baptist" makes it a difficult subject to quantify. The section on "Beliefs" just got marked for weasel words, because of its use of the word "tends too", etc. However, because each independent baptist church is in fact independent, we can't make blanket statements, because as soon as we do, somebody will say "My Church doesn't believe that." On the other hand, every independent Baptist Church would follow most of those beliefs mentioned. Since there is no spokesman for this, how do we give citations? Some follow Jack Hyles, some follow The Sword of the Lord, some follow Bob Jones University, some follow Pensacola Christian College, some follow Tennessee Temple University, some people hate everybody I just mentioned. So to cite The Sword of the Lord would be to discount the impact of TTU on Independent Baptists. To cite PCC would be to alienate BJU. To simply focus on what all these agree on would leave this a very small article indeed. Also, IMHO, The section "Current Developments", no citations, very controversial, and not very relevant to Independent Baptists as a whole. I suggest getting rid of it completely. Mgroop 13:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I removed Hephzibah Baptist Church and Westboro Baptist Church from the page. Hephzibah is a Southern Baptist church, and thus does not belong here. Westboro claims to be a Primitive Baptist Church, and thus doesn't belong here. Also neither church is representative of Independent, Southern, or Primitive Baptists, and as such (IMHO) shouldn't even be mentioned. Mgroop 12:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree Deigo 16:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
ifbreformer and others, please see wp:not before you start COMPLETELY rewriting this page without any explanation as to why. Wikipedia is not about advocacy. Your intent may not be vandalism, but it's starting to look that way. Please respond or this article may need to be reverted or protected. BURNyA 16:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I realize the WP is not for advocasy or soap boxes. Its not a blog - totally understand that. But it also needs to be factually correct and give examples of things to be accurate. This was first contribution of I made to WP and it was not intended as vandalism. I wrote a bit too much on the Current events section and I edited that yesterday down to a small portion. I removed the controversial section about sex scandals and such as there was no citation given for any of these controversial statements and I thought it was fair to remove until someone adds citations. Whoever originally wrote this article really slanted it toward one side of IFBs(the far right IFBs) and gave no mention of more moderate IFBs. I was trying to balance that out by mentioning things like some IFBs are not KJV only and TR only and some IFBs use CCM music. My intent was to give a fair and balanced picture of IFBs.
Please list any statements that are on the article now from me that seem to violate the WP standards and I will be happy to discuss them with you. -- Ifbreformer 19:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Most recently, the rise of Calvinism in what had been a predominantly Dispensationalist and semi-Arminian religious movement has prompted some IFB church members to resort to denominations such as the Southern Baptist Convention for a more stable church environment - although many Southern Baptist Churches have become Calvinistic as well.
In the last 20 years though, the use of the King James Version(King-James-Only Movement) and the use of Contemporary Christian music in worship services have become the two most divisive issues for the modern IFB Movement with the move toward Calvinistic teachings running a distant third.
I have been in IFB Churches most of my life(and still attend one now) so would consider myself to be somewhat of expert on them. I have studied our history as well and have a website with that information as well. I agree citations are important and I will look into getting more for the this article. I know proffessors from IFB colleges that I have mentioned along with several IFB Pastors across the country. Just because a school does not clearly identify itself as IFB does not mean it is not. Many of these IFB schools, while having the majority of their students be IFB, don't want to scare off other Baptists.
Any IFB who is has been in the movement for some number of years will read what I have added and consider it to be accurate and not simply POV. I did not write the first line about Calvinism and the Southern Baptists but that probably is accurate. Calvinism is on the rise in IFB churches and many IFBs can attest to this be accurate. The KJV and CCM issues are especially divisive as I have seen it first hand in many IFB churches.
Again I will see to track down some web articles that we can use as citations. But I believe the IFB article to be a generally accurate picture of what various IFBs think.
Let me know what you think. -- Ifbreformer 21:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand what you are talking about now - "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" - although its not always possible to verifiy things that true - I understand that. I will look for articles and books to substantiate the things mentioned on this article. Unfortunately, even many things that are published by respected sources often have a slant or POV in them - but if citation is the rule, then thats the rule. I will get on this. -- Ifbreformer 22:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Ifbreformer, an earlier comment was made that since IFB churches are all independant, making an all encompasing page describing IFB churches may be more of a chalange than it might seem. Since Still, you and I both know (I think we probably have a little bit in common from reading your above post) that much of what you say is accurate from personal experiences. Unfortunately IFB churches unlike SBC churches or PCA churches are a loosely defined group where things are similar due to a parallel heritage instead of being similar due to a common denominational network, covenant or confession. For this reason maybe it would be easier to define IFB churches in light of their common heritage or from a historical perspective instead of trying to define them outright. For instance there is much more concrete evidence for the affect John R Rice, The Sword of the Lord, J. Frank Norris, Fundamentalism or Bob Jones, Sr/ Bob Jones University had on the IFB movement than there may be for saying that all IFB churches believe this way or that way. Another thing to think about when editing on IFB article is the difference between these churches. For instance, historically IFB churches that are aligned with BJU are different from churches aligning themselves with Baptist Bible College which are different from Churches aligning themselves with Tennessee Temple University which are different from churches identifying themselves with Hyles-Anderson College. All of these churches would identify themselves as IFB some would go as far as to say the others are not IFB and in many ways all of these churches are different. Yes, IFB churches is an article that deserves representation in Wikipedia, but it might take a the brains of someone a lot smarter than I am. In the mean time I can only give suggestions. Mortsey 22:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Well spoken Mortsey, and I will try to the best of my ability to bring the article back into WP standards for inclusion. I have already found one good source(from a Seminary article very well written and cited) and I will find others. -- Ifbreformer 22:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks I will remember that for next time, and yes I just figured out how to make them references with ref tag -- Ifbreformer 01:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Some others have done some good cleanup - its starting to look better and actually have citations! I think though it is missing a section on IFB church structure - although that may be redundant as it is a Baptist distinctive - what do you guys think? Should we add something about IFBs only having one Pastor and a deacon board?(of course I will find a citation if we do so) -- Ifbreformer 02:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there really a point to listing the "Colleges and institutes" on these denomination entries? This list in particular is getting a bit long. BURNyA 20:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
OK I see. Because of a lack of centralization (unlike in the Roman Catholic Church or Southern Baptist Convention) the denomination is, in a way, defined by the schools? I get it. Thanks. BURNyA 19:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems like if this entry needs to be expanded, adding representative institutions (e.g., colleges and churches) instead of deleting that section would be a good idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by General Bradley ( talk • contribs) 12:36, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Some Independent Baptist churches have dismayed moderate Baptists and other evangelical Christians by using outreach techniques that many American Christians consider tasteless and inappropriate for modern Western culture.[6][7] These techniques include distributing frightening religious tracts authored by conspiracy theorist Jack T. Chick[8] and marching in local parades with signs urging watchers to repent.[9] Critics say the aggressive techniques used by fundamentalist groups give Christians a bad name.[10] Not all Independent Baptist churches use these techniques.
Someone added the above to this article. I think that it should be removed. It doesn't seem NPOV to me. Deigo 11:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The above statements are factual and supported by appropriate links. The point is not to slam independent Baptists or to suggest that the movement is a cult. The point is that independent Baptists often use extreme methods of witnessing that are rejected by most evangelical churches. These techniques are one of several issues - along with the use modern Bible versions and the use of contemporary Christian music - that strain the relationship between fundamentalist Baptists and evangelical Christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ManicBrit ( talk • contribs) 22:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The section currently titled "King James Bible debate" is largely unsourced and has been tagged since May. The main point seems to be, per the intro sentence, "A number of English-speaking Independent Baptist churches and associated educational institutions support exclusive use of the King James Bible or other Bible translations based on the Textus Receptus (or Received Text)." The rest of the section notes that some hold the opposite view. But that discussion focuses primarily on the Textus Receptus, which is not entirely the same debate as the KJV only debate.
The section seems to be there to show that some (most?) Independent Baptist churches hold the KJV only view, or at least a TR only view, and implies that this is a defining characteristic of IBs. The alternative that "some" others disagree seems to modify the general proposition that most are KJV only. In any case, there is not a single source supporting the proposition that KJV only or TR only is a defining characteristic of IBs (though [the one source does not that many or most fundamentalists do, it is not clear this assertion, which is not the thesis of the article, is limited to IBs). The only source argues that the KJV only or TR only position is wrong. (William W. Combs, Erasmus and the Textus Receptus, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary Journal)
Without RSs, there is no way to verify whether this KJ only view is a defining characteristic of IBs, or even a view held by an appreciable number. Without that, even if true that some hold that view (and it must be true that at least some hold the view) it is almost impossible to evaluate the section for WP:UNDUE purposes.
I propose that unless there are some sources provided soon to support the KJ debate text section, the whole section should go as failing WP:V and WP:NPOV (specifically WP:UNDUE). The one source there is great, but it is not clear whether the position it advocates interplays with the normal position of IBs, so it is of limited use in this context. In short, based on the source provided I can't verify what this section says, let alone what it implies, nor do I have any idea how central the "debate" is to IBs so as to determine the weight it should receive in the article.
Novaseminary ( talk) 04:40, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I posted a section entitled Criticism with the following text: "== Criticism ==
Independent Fundamentalist Baptists churches were featured on the April 8, 2011 20/20 television Program. The program featured a former member who alleges that she was forced to confess to the sin of adultery after she was raped as a teenager by an adult member of the church. The program also discussed the churches teachings on corporal punishment as well as a defense of the church by an IFBC pastor who said that such events were aberrational from normal church practice. [1]
Several websites created by former IFB members alleged that the church is a dangerous cult. [2]<ref [9]</ref>"
This section was deleted. I think the section I added was fairly neutral in presenting the controversy regarding the IFB's, and was well documented. Before I repost it, I want to see what the consensus of other editors on this article is. Jmbranum ( talk) 02:49, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I assure you, I have no connection with any IFB church, nor do I even know anybody who does (so far as I know). In fact, it was removing spam links and other fluff that brought me to this article in the first place, not an affinity for this movement. Regardless, per WP:NPA, I plan to focus on whether text meets WP guidelines and policies rather than motivations of editors (so long as they are not disruptive). The text you added failed WP:UNDUE and WP:SYNTH and possibly others. Your good faith doesn't change that fact. Novaseminary ( talk) 13:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
It's odd, given such a lengthy and detailed discussion section, that the Independent Baptist article has a total of three sentences. Can someone work to expand it? This seems like an important topic on religion, and it's too bad that the article isn't more detailed. KBurchfiel ( talk) 15:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I am going to revert Mykjoseph's recent additions. The "Beliefs" section is OR as it violates WP:SYNTH. It also cites probable non- RS primary sources. The "Controversy" section is a similar SYNTH violation, as well as an WP:UNDUE violation as it takes coverage of events and extrapolates them to the entire movement without context. Further, it cites several non-RSs (youtube videos, etc.). It also appears to have been inserted to highlight a single non-profit group ( Tina Anderson Foundation) the article for which was created recently by Mykjoseph's. The text also seems to be POV as belied by Mykjoseph's statement towards the end of the Criticism Section above that s/he is "a concerned citizen wanting to accurately inform Americans of the news." Novaseminary ( talk) 03:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh look, yet another article about Baptists turned into a stub for spurious reasons. -- 202.124.72.250 ( talk) 14:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Are there any Independent Baptist churches outside the US? I don't want to jump to the conclusion that they're all American, but, uh, well, maybe we actually can jump to the conclusion that they're all American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sburke ( talk • contribs)
Unfortunately, we live in a time which sex abuse taints just about everything. I don't think someone reading this short, stubby article is looking for this anymore than someone reading an article about Hollywood or public education in the United States, both of which have had plenty of sex scandals. Per WP:CRITS, I don't think this one sentence section about sex scandals should be included as it compromises the neutrality of the article. Perhaps as an alternative we could move the sentence to another section? PCHS-NJROTC (Messages)Have a blessed day. 00:56, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Editors need to be aware that though "Independent Baptist" and "Independent Fundamental Baptist" ("IFB") are often used interchangeably, they aren't the same thing. IFBs are basically a subset of Independent Baptists as a whole, but aren't that whole. Within the US, there are probably 6-8 subgroups of Independent Baptists, most centered around a prominent Bible College, and are usually within one region of the country. It's easy for people within one of these subgroups, or whose only contact with Independent Baptists has been with one of the subgroups, to think that all Independent Baptists are like that subgroup, and believe and do everything that subgroup believes and does. Some of these subgroups are basically mini-denominations, with an organization almost as structured as the Southern Baptist Convention or GARBC, while others are more loosely tied together by common beliefs and interests. The Baptist Bible Fellowship (BBF) is a good example of the former. Some subgroups are very homogeneous, with little variation, while others are more "diverse" (and I don't mean racially). Some of these subgroups refer to themselves as IFB, while some just use the term "Independent Baptist". As a whole, the IFB subgroups tend to more "conservative", relatively speaking of course, than the other groups, but not necessarily. - BilCat ( talk) 22:23, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
Most Independent Baptists are very similar to the more-conservative Southern Baptist churches on the major Biblical doctrines, and many Independent Baptists are comfortable going to/visting a Southern Baptist church, and vice versa. (Most peole who call themselves IFB would certainly not be!) Most are not Calvinist or Arminian, and most are Pretribulational-Premillenial. (That is one way the "New IFBs" differ from mainstream Independent Baptists, as discussed above.) - BilCat ( talk) 22:32, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
As a member of an IFB church, I must state how unsubstantiated the claim that Independent Baptists as a unit reject social justice. There is a ton of nuance and various opinions I have run into in my own church and with other independent Baptists and preachers. As no one has provided any evidence for that statement, I ask that it be removed. IMHO everything else seems accurate but there is little detail and citations are needed as already noted. Stevenyeadon ( talk) 04:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | The contents of the Independent Fundamental Baptist page were merged into Independent Baptist. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
The result was merge into Independent Baptist
I removed Cedarville University as it is not an Independent Baptist College. Cedarville was a GARBC College, however that organization is separating from Cedarville [3] [4] [5] [6] because of their close association with the Southern Baptist Convention [7] [8]. Mgroop 21:54, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Towards the bottom of the page, some controversial points are made without any references or sources. In fact, the whole article seems curiously devoid of any citations. Would people please try to better provide references and sources for their material from now on, particularly that which is likely to be controversial? -- Jzyehoshua 03:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
This page is in need of clean-up. However, before we go in and make some wholesale changes, I thought it best to voice my concerns here. First, the very nature of "Independent Baptist" makes it a difficult subject to quantify. The section on "Beliefs" just got marked for weasel words, because of its use of the word "tends too", etc. However, because each independent baptist church is in fact independent, we can't make blanket statements, because as soon as we do, somebody will say "My Church doesn't believe that." On the other hand, every independent Baptist Church would follow most of those beliefs mentioned. Since there is no spokesman for this, how do we give citations? Some follow Jack Hyles, some follow The Sword of the Lord, some follow Bob Jones University, some follow Pensacola Christian College, some follow Tennessee Temple University, some people hate everybody I just mentioned. So to cite The Sword of the Lord would be to discount the impact of TTU on Independent Baptists. To cite PCC would be to alienate BJU. To simply focus on what all these agree on would leave this a very small article indeed. Also, IMHO, The section "Current Developments", no citations, very controversial, and not very relevant to Independent Baptists as a whole. I suggest getting rid of it completely. Mgroop 13:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I removed Hephzibah Baptist Church and Westboro Baptist Church from the page. Hephzibah is a Southern Baptist church, and thus does not belong here. Westboro claims to be a Primitive Baptist Church, and thus doesn't belong here. Also neither church is representative of Independent, Southern, or Primitive Baptists, and as such (IMHO) shouldn't even be mentioned. Mgroop 12:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree Deigo 16:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
ifbreformer and others, please see wp:not before you start COMPLETELY rewriting this page without any explanation as to why. Wikipedia is not about advocacy. Your intent may not be vandalism, but it's starting to look that way. Please respond or this article may need to be reverted or protected. BURNyA 16:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I realize the WP is not for advocasy or soap boxes. Its not a blog - totally understand that. But it also needs to be factually correct and give examples of things to be accurate. This was first contribution of I made to WP and it was not intended as vandalism. I wrote a bit too much on the Current events section and I edited that yesterday down to a small portion. I removed the controversial section about sex scandals and such as there was no citation given for any of these controversial statements and I thought it was fair to remove until someone adds citations. Whoever originally wrote this article really slanted it toward one side of IFBs(the far right IFBs) and gave no mention of more moderate IFBs. I was trying to balance that out by mentioning things like some IFBs are not KJV only and TR only and some IFBs use CCM music. My intent was to give a fair and balanced picture of IFBs.
Please list any statements that are on the article now from me that seem to violate the WP standards and I will be happy to discuss them with you. -- Ifbreformer 19:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Most recently, the rise of Calvinism in what had been a predominantly Dispensationalist and semi-Arminian religious movement has prompted some IFB church members to resort to denominations such as the Southern Baptist Convention for a more stable church environment - although many Southern Baptist Churches have become Calvinistic as well.
In the last 20 years though, the use of the King James Version(King-James-Only Movement) and the use of Contemporary Christian music in worship services have become the two most divisive issues for the modern IFB Movement with the move toward Calvinistic teachings running a distant third.
I have been in IFB Churches most of my life(and still attend one now) so would consider myself to be somewhat of expert on them. I have studied our history as well and have a website with that information as well. I agree citations are important and I will look into getting more for the this article. I know proffessors from IFB colleges that I have mentioned along with several IFB Pastors across the country. Just because a school does not clearly identify itself as IFB does not mean it is not. Many of these IFB schools, while having the majority of their students be IFB, don't want to scare off other Baptists.
Any IFB who is has been in the movement for some number of years will read what I have added and consider it to be accurate and not simply POV. I did not write the first line about Calvinism and the Southern Baptists but that probably is accurate. Calvinism is on the rise in IFB churches and many IFBs can attest to this be accurate. The KJV and CCM issues are especially divisive as I have seen it first hand in many IFB churches.
Again I will see to track down some web articles that we can use as citations. But I believe the IFB article to be a generally accurate picture of what various IFBs think.
Let me know what you think. -- Ifbreformer 21:12, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand what you are talking about now - "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" - although its not always possible to verifiy things that true - I understand that. I will look for articles and books to substantiate the things mentioned on this article. Unfortunately, even many things that are published by respected sources often have a slant or POV in them - but if citation is the rule, then thats the rule. I will get on this. -- Ifbreformer 22:01, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Ifbreformer, an earlier comment was made that since IFB churches are all independant, making an all encompasing page describing IFB churches may be more of a chalange than it might seem. Since Still, you and I both know (I think we probably have a little bit in common from reading your above post) that much of what you say is accurate from personal experiences. Unfortunately IFB churches unlike SBC churches or PCA churches are a loosely defined group where things are similar due to a parallel heritage instead of being similar due to a common denominational network, covenant or confession. For this reason maybe it would be easier to define IFB churches in light of their common heritage or from a historical perspective instead of trying to define them outright. For instance there is much more concrete evidence for the affect John R Rice, The Sword of the Lord, J. Frank Norris, Fundamentalism or Bob Jones, Sr/ Bob Jones University had on the IFB movement than there may be for saying that all IFB churches believe this way or that way. Another thing to think about when editing on IFB article is the difference between these churches. For instance, historically IFB churches that are aligned with BJU are different from churches aligning themselves with Baptist Bible College which are different from Churches aligning themselves with Tennessee Temple University which are different from churches identifying themselves with Hyles-Anderson College. All of these churches would identify themselves as IFB some would go as far as to say the others are not IFB and in many ways all of these churches are different. Yes, IFB churches is an article that deserves representation in Wikipedia, but it might take a the brains of someone a lot smarter than I am. In the mean time I can only give suggestions. Mortsey 22:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Well spoken Mortsey, and I will try to the best of my ability to bring the article back into WP standards for inclusion. I have already found one good source(from a Seminary article very well written and cited) and I will find others. -- Ifbreformer 22:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks I will remember that for next time, and yes I just figured out how to make them references with ref tag -- Ifbreformer 01:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Some others have done some good cleanup - its starting to look better and actually have citations! I think though it is missing a section on IFB church structure - although that may be redundant as it is a Baptist distinctive - what do you guys think? Should we add something about IFBs only having one Pastor and a deacon board?(of course I will find a citation if we do so) -- Ifbreformer 02:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Is there really a point to listing the "Colleges and institutes" on these denomination entries? This list in particular is getting a bit long. BURNyA 20:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
OK I see. Because of a lack of centralization (unlike in the Roman Catholic Church or Southern Baptist Convention) the denomination is, in a way, defined by the schools? I get it. Thanks. BURNyA 19:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems like if this entry needs to be expanded, adding representative institutions (e.g., colleges and churches) instead of deleting that section would be a good idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by General Bradley ( talk • contribs) 12:36, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Some Independent Baptist churches have dismayed moderate Baptists and other evangelical Christians by using outreach techniques that many American Christians consider tasteless and inappropriate for modern Western culture.[6][7] These techniques include distributing frightening religious tracts authored by conspiracy theorist Jack T. Chick[8] and marching in local parades with signs urging watchers to repent.[9] Critics say the aggressive techniques used by fundamentalist groups give Christians a bad name.[10] Not all Independent Baptist churches use these techniques.
Someone added the above to this article. I think that it should be removed. It doesn't seem NPOV to me. Deigo 11:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
The above statements are factual and supported by appropriate links. The point is not to slam independent Baptists or to suggest that the movement is a cult. The point is that independent Baptists often use extreme methods of witnessing that are rejected by most evangelical churches. These techniques are one of several issues - along with the use modern Bible versions and the use of contemporary Christian music - that strain the relationship between fundamentalist Baptists and evangelical Christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ManicBrit ( talk • contribs) 22:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The section currently titled "King James Bible debate" is largely unsourced and has been tagged since May. The main point seems to be, per the intro sentence, "A number of English-speaking Independent Baptist churches and associated educational institutions support exclusive use of the King James Bible or other Bible translations based on the Textus Receptus (or Received Text)." The rest of the section notes that some hold the opposite view. But that discussion focuses primarily on the Textus Receptus, which is not entirely the same debate as the KJV only debate.
The section seems to be there to show that some (most?) Independent Baptist churches hold the KJV only view, or at least a TR only view, and implies that this is a defining characteristic of IBs. The alternative that "some" others disagree seems to modify the general proposition that most are KJV only. In any case, there is not a single source supporting the proposition that KJV only or TR only is a defining characteristic of IBs (though [the one source does not that many or most fundamentalists do, it is not clear this assertion, which is not the thesis of the article, is limited to IBs). The only source argues that the KJV only or TR only position is wrong. (William W. Combs, Erasmus and the Textus Receptus, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary Journal)
Without RSs, there is no way to verify whether this KJ only view is a defining characteristic of IBs, or even a view held by an appreciable number. Without that, even if true that some hold that view (and it must be true that at least some hold the view) it is almost impossible to evaluate the section for WP:UNDUE purposes.
I propose that unless there are some sources provided soon to support the KJ debate text section, the whole section should go as failing WP:V and WP:NPOV (specifically WP:UNDUE). The one source there is great, but it is not clear whether the position it advocates interplays with the normal position of IBs, so it is of limited use in this context. In short, based on the source provided I can't verify what this section says, let alone what it implies, nor do I have any idea how central the "debate" is to IBs so as to determine the weight it should receive in the article.
Novaseminary ( talk) 04:40, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I posted a section entitled Criticism with the following text: "== Criticism ==
Independent Fundamentalist Baptists churches were featured on the April 8, 2011 20/20 television Program. The program featured a former member who alleges that she was forced to confess to the sin of adultery after she was raped as a teenager by an adult member of the church. The program also discussed the churches teachings on corporal punishment as well as a defense of the church by an IFBC pastor who said that such events were aberrational from normal church practice. [1]
Several websites created by former IFB members alleged that the church is a dangerous cult. [2]<ref [9]</ref>"
This section was deleted. I think the section I added was fairly neutral in presenting the controversy regarding the IFB's, and was well documented. Before I repost it, I want to see what the consensus of other editors on this article is. Jmbranum ( talk) 02:49, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I assure you, I have no connection with any IFB church, nor do I even know anybody who does (so far as I know). In fact, it was removing spam links and other fluff that brought me to this article in the first place, not an affinity for this movement. Regardless, per WP:NPA, I plan to focus on whether text meets WP guidelines and policies rather than motivations of editors (so long as they are not disruptive). The text you added failed WP:UNDUE and WP:SYNTH and possibly others. Your good faith doesn't change that fact. Novaseminary ( talk) 13:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
It's odd, given such a lengthy and detailed discussion section, that the Independent Baptist article has a total of three sentences. Can someone work to expand it? This seems like an important topic on religion, and it's too bad that the article isn't more detailed. KBurchfiel ( talk) 15:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
I am going to revert Mykjoseph's recent additions. The "Beliefs" section is OR as it violates WP:SYNTH. It also cites probable non- RS primary sources. The "Controversy" section is a similar SYNTH violation, as well as an WP:UNDUE violation as it takes coverage of events and extrapolates them to the entire movement without context. Further, it cites several non-RSs (youtube videos, etc.). It also appears to have been inserted to highlight a single non-profit group ( Tina Anderson Foundation) the article for which was created recently by Mykjoseph's. The text also seems to be POV as belied by Mykjoseph's statement towards the end of the Criticism Section above that s/he is "a concerned citizen wanting to accurately inform Americans of the news." Novaseminary ( talk) 03:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Oh look, yet another article about Baptists turned into a stub for spurious reasons. -- 202.124.72.250 ( talk) 14:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Are there any Independent Baptist churches outside the US? I don't want to jump to the conclusion that they're all American, but, uh, well, maybe we actually can jump to the conclusion that they're all American. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sburke ( talk • contribs)
Unfortunately, we live in a time which sex abuse taints just about everything. I don't think someone reading this short, stubby article is looking for this anymore than someone reading an article about Hollywood or public education in the United States, both of which have had plenty of sex scandals. Per WP:CRITS, I don't think this one sentence section about sex scandals should be included as it compromises the neutrality of the article. Perhaps as an alternative we could move the sentence to another section? PCHS-NJROTC (Messages)Have a blessed day. 00:56, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Editors need to be aware that though "Independent Baptist" and "Independent Fundamental Baptist" ("IFB") are often used interchangeably, they aren't the same thing. IFBs are basically a subset of Independent Baptists as a whole, but aren't that whole. Within the US, there are probably 6-8 subgroups of Independent Baptists, most centered around a prominent Bible College, and are usually within one region of the country. It's easy for people within one of these subgroups, or whose only contact with Independent Baptists has been with one of the subgroups, to think that all Independent Baptists are like that subgroup, and believe and do everything that subgroup believes and does. Some of these subgroups are basically mini-denominations, with an organization almost as structured as the Southern Baptist Convention or GARBC, while others are more loosely tied together by common beliefs and interests. The Baptist Bible Fellowship (BBF) is a good example of the former. Some subgroups are very homogeneous, with little variation, while others are more "diverse" (and I don't mean racially). Some of these subgroups refer to themselves as IFB, while some just use the term "Independent Baptist". As a whole, the IFB subgroups tend to more "conservative", relatively speaking of course, than the other groups, but not necessarily. - BilCat ( talk) 22:23, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
Most Independent Baptists are very similar to the more-conservative Southern Baptist churches on the major Biblical doctrines, and many Independent Baptists are comfortable going to/visting a Southern Baptist church, and vice versa. (Most peole who call themselves IFB would certainly not be!) Most are not Calvinist or Arminian, and most are Pretribulational-Premillenial. (That is one way the "New IFBs" differ from mainstream Independent Baptists, as discussed above.) - BilCat ( talk) 22:32, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
As a member of an IFB church, I must state how unsubstantiated the claim that Independent Baptists as a unit reject social justice. There is a ton of nuance and various opinions I have run into in my own church and with other independent Baptists and preachers. As no one has provided any evidence for that statement, I ask that it be removed. IMHO everything else seems accurate but there is little detail and citations are needed as already noted. Stevenyeadon ( talk) 04:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)