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I uploaded a modified version of the Inclusive Democracy entry. This has nothing to do with the original one which was based on the corresponding Routledge entry and caused the copy vio. User: Narap43, 10:40 (UTC), 27 December 2005
---SOMEBODY VANDALIZED THE PAGE JUST BEFORE WITH A PORNIGRAPHIC PICTURE. SHOULDN'T SOMEONE SEARCH WHO DID IT?-- TheVel 13:23, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
It is well known that every entry here (or anywhere in Wikipedia for that matter) leaves its trace in the History page. Why the pornographic entry, which stayed here for over an hour, left no trace at all in the history page? But, even if this vandalising entry somehow did not leave any trace in the History page surely it left its trace in your monitors and therefore you know the IP of the vandaliser. OK?
I watched the Administrators' behaviour with respect to the Inclusive Democracy (ID) entry and I could only characterise it as a perfect example of authoritarianism mixed with ignorance.
First, you discovered possible copyright violation in the ID entry with respect to the corresponding entry in the Inclusive Democracy.org webpage and the relevant Routledge Encyclopedia entry. Then, the webmaster of the ID webpage wrote to you and explained that there was no such violation as he has the copyrights for all the contents of his webpage. Furthermore, he created a new temp. page on ID which has little relation to the old one and consequently to the one in Routledge. You ignored him. Instead a supposed 'expert' in copyrights violations, under the name karmafist yesterday deleted the temp page WITH NO EXPLANATION AT ALL. When today the webmaster posted the same page, another 'expert' under the name Ulayiti deleted the page again, OFFERING ALSO NO EXPLANATION AT ALL.
Could you stop behaving in such an arbitrary way and explain what is wrong with the temp. page? The fact that it contains parts of the old entry, for anyone with an elementary knowledge of copyrights legislation, is not a violation, particularly if the author of both entries is one and the same: Takis Fotopoulos! Had you checked for instance the entries on Participatory Economics by Michael Albert in his own webpage and elsewhere against the WP entry on Participatory Economics you would have found dozens of cases of similar 'violations'.
Alternatively, if you have no explanation for your arbitrary actions then you have to restore the temp. page as the new ID entry--unless of course, as one may suspect, the reasons for your action have much more to do with the political content of ID which is clearly against the political affiliations of most administrators--particularly those deleting the temp.page-- (rather than with any copyright violations!
I have prepared a new version of the Inclusive Democracy entry for use exlusively for Wikipedia purposes. Does this resolve any possible copyright problems?? User:Narap43, 15:30, 29 December (UTC)
Can you be more specific on why the new version also appears to be a copyvio because alternatively you simply abuse your power? A mMember of the International Network for Inclusive Democracy, 16:35, 31 Dec. 2005
1. We, the members of the Editorial Board of Democracy & Nature (D&N) and its present successor The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy (IJID) have, over the last few days, witnessed a concerted attack against the journal by an alliance of sockpuppets (who have been created by a disgruntled ex-member of the journal with a vendetta against us) and some administrators who are either apolitical (not in the sense of party politics but in the sense of a fundamental lack of understanding of politics in the broader sense) or who do not hide their hostility towards the Inclusive Democracy political agenda. This ‘unholy’ alliance has attempted to delete all Inclusive Democracy entries in Wikipedia and in some cases it has already succeeded in doing this.
2. The reasons for which Wikipedia have attempted to substantiate their AfDs range from silly WP copyright violations (from our own webpages!-- which, if applied to all WP entries, would lead to most of them being eclipsed) to arbitrary ‘assessments’ of the notability and significance of our entries. Such ‘assessments’ are given either by administrators who do not have any expertise on the topics they are assessing, or by others following their own political agenda which is at the opposite end of the political spectrum to the Inclusive Democracy project.
3. We find it humiliating, to say the least, to be subjected to this pseudo-democratic process which defames not only our journals, which have been honoured to have had as contributors and members of their Editorial Boards well-known writers such as Steven Best, Murray Bookchin, Pierre Bourdieu, Cornelius Castoriadis, Noam Chomsky, Takis Fotopoulos, Andre Gunder Frank, Serge Latouche, Harold Pinter-- and many other equally important writers who do not have similar WP entries—but also our subscribers who have, in the past, included such notable institutions as Michigan State University, University of Maryland, University of Wisconsin, London School of Economics, University of Massachusetts, Stanford University, Simon Fraser University, Hamburg Library, University of New South Wales, University of Canterbury, Kent; Universidade de Coimbra, Portugal; Harvard College Library,Iinternational Institute of Social History, Amsterdam; Formazione ii Biblioteca, Palermo; Bath University and many others. Furthermore, we find this process equally humiliating to the authors of hundreds of references and citations to D&N and IJID in books, journals, magazines, and electronic media.
4. Finally, we find appaling the fact that, through Wikipedia’s so-called assessment process, self-anointed administrators, with no guarantee at all of any expertise in the fields they assess, use their wide-ranging powers to decide which pieces of knowledge and information are appropriate enough to be included in Wikipedia. These powers include discounting the votes of registered users who are not long-established--even if their expertise is much more relevant to the topics assessed than that of the administrators, as the irrelevant comments of these administrators frequently show. These built-in fatal errors in assessment—only some of which have been mentioned--could go a long way in explaining the growing literature in the world press on the low standard of knowledge and information provided by Wikipedia.
5. When we created the WP Inclusive Democracy entries, we were functioning as bona fide new users thinking that we were helping the development of a free and supposedly democratic encyclopaedia that could function as an alternative source of information to the established encyclopaedias. We were utterly disappointed when we discovered the irresponsible and completely unreliable way in which knowledge on important matters is supposedly created by this supposedly alternative encyclopaedia, which clearly will never reach the standards of the established encyclopaedias because of the fatal structural flaws mentioned. Therefore, the sooner it is disqualified as an authoritative source of knowledge, the better.
6. In light of the above we have decided the following:
a) to withdraw with immediate effect ALL the Inclusive Democracy entries from Wikipedia, including those that have been challenged only on account of trivial Wikipedia copyright violations, as well as those like the entry on the founder of Inclusive Democracy, Takis Fotopoulos, which has not been challenged by anyone during this whole process. b) to demand the banning of any new entry on the following topics: Inclusive Democracy, Democracy & Nature, The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy, The International Network for Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos. We reserve all our legal rights in case any future entries on these topics are created in Wikipedia without our explicit and written permission.
The Editorial Committee of The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy Narap43, 17:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Since yesterday’s announcement some of the main points we made in it have already been confirmed! Thanks to the technical work of some administrators who showed that they function without any political agendas against us but instead attempted to find out the truth, Paul Cardan (the disgruntled ex-member of the journal with a vendetta against us who was the main cause of the first AfD against Democracy & Nature through his repeated vandalising attacks against it) and User:DisposableAccount (who proposed the deletion of the successor journal to D&N and with the support of two (2) administrators managed to have it deleted), Llbb and Bbll (who persuaded other administrators to keep the page deleted) are all the same editor! [4]
Meanwhile, other administrators still doubt whether the present announcement is a genuine Editorial Board announcement. Here is the proof:
http://www.inclusivedemocracy.org/journal/newsletter/Wikipedia.htm
The Editorial Committee of The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy
11:19 (UTC) January 2, 2006 User:Narap43
Either the disputed content was or was not released under the GFDL. If it was, then it cannot be taken back. If not, then the above announcement is false when it claims the copyvio objection was groundless. Either way, the above announcement lacks credibility. --- Charles Stewart 18:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I am considering nominating this page for deletion under Articles for Deletion in accordance with Wikipedia:Notability:
Please bolster the article's case for notability, if possible.
In the alternative, please develop the article with more content. Right now it is obviously just a submarine advertisement for a political philosophy, with only enough text so that it can call itself an article and get the reader to use the external links. I have to warn you that without a solid case for notability, the article will continue to be in danger of deletion. However, as a matter of personal choice, I will not personally initiate the deletion process as long as someone puts some actual content in.
Drake Dun 10:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I added a lot of new material, first, to give more info on the aspects of the Inclusive Democracy project and, second, to establish the notability of the article. Also, many links to online and printed resources are given.
User:narap43 9:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
All four references to parecon are misleading:
"This implies a new definition of economic efficiency, based not on narrow techno-economic criteria of input minimisation/output maximization as in socialist models like Parecon, but on criteria securing full coverage of the democratically defined basic needs of all citizens as well as of the non-basic needs they decide to meet -- even if this involves a certain amount of inefficiency according to the orthodox economics criteria."
Parecon is not based on input minimization and product maximization, but on value maximization, that is, satisfying the needs of consumers (citizens). For example, the citizens can decide that a process that uses more inputs and produces fewer products is preferable because it makes the work more enjoyable. About basic needs, see below.
"This is so because economic decision making is carried out by the entire community, through the citizens' assemblies, where people make the fundamental macro-economic decisions which affect the whole community, as citizens, rather than as vocationally oriented groups (e.g. workers, as e.g. in Parecon [8])."
The sentence is flatly false. Parecon's consumer councils play the same role as ID's citizen assemblies. The only reason parecon theory refers to consumers rather than citizens is because it focuses on the economic aspects of social organization. Participatory polity, which is the extension of parecon to politics, focuses on the political aspects.
"The main characteristic of the proposed model, which also differentiates it from socialist planning models like Parecon, is that it explicitly presupposes a stateless, money-less and market-less economy that precludes private accumulation of wealth and the institutionalisation of privileges for some sections of society, without relying on a post-scarcity state of abundance, or sacrificing freedom of choice."
The sentence falsely suggests that parecon is based on a market economy, based on a state, and allows the institutionalization of privileges for some sectors of society, or relies on a post-scarcity state of abundance, or sacrifices freedom of choice any more than ID. Parecon does not do any of these. Whether it allows the accumulation of wealth depends on what that means. The only real difference from parecon is ID's money-less economy.
"Thus, unlike Parecon where basic needs are satisfied thanks to public goods and to compassion,[10] ID is based on the principle that meeting basic needs is a fundamental human right which is guaranteed to anybody who offers a minimal amount of work."
What compassion? Parecon guarantees an average income to those who cannot get income by working -- the unemployed and the infirm. ID guarantees basic goods to everyone who can work a minimally. Both are based on compassion, and that is not a weakness of either. Also, parecon does not assume that everyone's basic needs are the same, so it offers more freedom of choice. Also, it seems that ID in fact assumes abundance of basic goods in order to guarantee them to everyone. That assumption may not hold, for example, in time of war or natural disaster.
- Pgan002 ( talk) 20:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
All four defences of Parecon above are biased and false
“Parecon is not based on input minimization and product maximization, but on value maximization, that is, satisfying the needs of consumers (citizens). For example, the citizens can decide that a process that uses more inputs and produces fewer products is preferable because it makes the work more enjoyable. About basic needs, see below”.
The discussant obviously has no idea what the issue is about. The issue is not what is the objective of production (value maximization, etc.), but what definition of efficiency Albert and Hahnel adopt and as Fotopoulos points out in his critique of Parecon (“Inclusive Democracy and Participatory Economics”, DEMOCRACY & NATURE: vol.9, no.3, (November 2003) “in the pursuit of respectability and recognition by the ‘serious’ economists,( i.e. the orthodox economics profession teaching in universities, etc.) the authors adopt unreservedly even what themselves call ‘the traditional view’ that a desirable economy should be ‘efficient’ and they then proceed to adopt the orthodox Paretian optimality conditions ‘as a useful definition of social efficiency’ (M. Albert’s and R. Hahnel’s ‘The Political Economy of Participatory Economics’ (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, p. 9). Of course, these optimality conditions imply input minimization or output maximization!
“The sentence is flatly false. Parecon's consumer councils play the same role as ID's citizen assemblies. The only reason parecon theory refers to consumers rather than citizens is because it focuses on the economic aspects of social organization. Participatory polity, which is the extension of parecon to politics, focuses on the political aspects.”
This is another typical example of the biased defence of Parecon by the discussant. Fotopoulos says the same thing, but he draws a very different conclusion: “Given the nature of Parecon as purely an economic model, it is not surprising that the main actors in it are determined in the economic field. Thus, the concept of citizen is completely missing from the Parecon model and is replaced instead by workers and consumers”. And further on he explains why the compartmentalization of people into workers and consumers and the identification of consumers with citizens attempted by Parecon is completely irrelevant to democracy: “However, the dual council structure proposed by Parecon, instead of creating an all round personality of citizen as citizen who expresses the general interest, it enhances the market economy’s division of people as consumers and workers, and is inevitably leading to the creation of particular interests, which potentially may come in conflict with each other… In other words, people as workers may have conflicting ideas, views and possibly even interests with people as consumers, and the dualism between workers and consumers councils enhances competition between them.”
“The sentence falsely suggests that parecon is based on a market economy, based on a state, and allows the institutionalization of privileges for some sectors of society, or relies on a post-scarcity state of abundance, or sacrifices freedom of choice any more than ID. Parecon does not do any of these. Whether it allows the accumulation of wealth depends on what that means. The only real difference from parecon is ID's money-less economy.”
This is a pure distortion of the sentence in the ID entry which does not say that Parecon is based on a market economy (Fotopoulos has recognized the non-market nature of Parecon anyway: “Parecon is, of course, in accord with the ID project as far as it concerns the rejection of the market mechanism as incompatible with self-management”). What it does say is that “socialist Planning models like Parecon” have characteristics that are missing from ID, like a state-based economy (Parecon does not explicitly propose a stateless economy, like ID does, but simply demands compatibility of “political institutions” with the economic institutions: “institutions existing alongside a Parecon will have to respect balanced job complexes, remuneration for effort and sacrifice, and self-management and…will have to interface with participatory planning’ (Parecon, p. 287)). Furthermore, Parecon does not assume, unlike ID, a moneyless economy, (as the discussant admits) and this makes possible the accumulation of wealth in a Parecon system and so on.
“What compassion? Parecon guarantees an average income to those who cannot get income by working -- the unemployed and the infirm. ID guarantees basic goods to everyone who can work a minimally. Both are based on compassion, and that is not a weakness of either. Also, parecon does not assume that everyone's basic needs are the same, so it offers more freedom of choice. Also, it seems that ID in fact assumes abundance of basic goods in order to guarantee them to everyone. That assumption may not hold, for example, in time of war or natural disaster.”
This is either a complete misunderstanding of what ID proposes or a pure distortion of it in order to defend Parecon. ID does not assume that everybody’s needs are the same nor it assumes abundance of basic goods, or compassion! What is a basic need in ID is not determined “objectively”, but by the democratic decisions of citizens who also assess at what level such needs can be met given the scarcity of resources. Then, the way basic and non-basic needs are met is decided individually by each citizen through the use of vouchers or special credit cards - a way securing real freedom of choice, in contrast to the bureaucratic way in which consumer needs are met in Parecon. As for compassion, this is a bourgeois principle adopted by Parecon, whereas ID bases the meeting of basic needs on the communist principle “from each according to his ability to each according to his/her needs”.
John sargis ( talk) 22:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I eliminated redundances and original investigations in cats (cats work like that: A contents B). But some users don't want to understand it. Please see: WP:POINT. -- Nihilo 01 ( talk) 16:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
My recent edit was reverted twice, by an editor who falsely accused me on my talk page of "re-writing the entire entry without providing valid reasons". If anyone cares to actually look at my edit (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Inclusive_Democracy&diff=588427855&oldid=586933790), one will see that I merely copy edited some sections of the article and improved the organization, all within Wikipedia guidelines. Some of my changes in that edit are as uncontroversial as deleting or adding lines of space. I certainly did not "rewrite" the article, delete content or change the substance or meaning at all. Note that at the top of this talk page, it says "This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale." For a detailed explanation of that rating, which means the article needs to be improved, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Politics/Assessment#Quality_scale Spylab ( talk) 23:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Inclusive_Democracy&diff=588427855&oldid=586933790
User:Spylab, as was noted by 2 users above and was already alerted in his talk page, proceeded in the last 2-3 days in sweeping-mass edits and continuous reverts in the Inclusive Democracy (ID) entry, although s/he was asked to do his changes one-by-one and justify them. In reality, under the pretext of simple "copy/editing" and "reorganization", it can be shown that s/he managed to effectively diminish the content of the entry and the work of the contributors in the entry and the ID project, whereas at the same time s/he did not do the required copy-editing changes, where they were needed in the original text before his/her repeated reversions of it and mass edits on it. This shows beyond any doubt that his/her motive was far from improving the text. I will explain why and, trying to show good faith, I will implement some of his/her alterations in the entry.
Spylab moved all "PRINTED RESOURCES" (apart from two!) to "EXTERNAL LINKS" (see line 133 at [5]), whereas in all other relevant Wiki entries, printed resources belong to "FURTHER READING" and the External Links are restricted to online sources of reference (see e.g. entries of Murray Bookchin, Cornelius Castoriadis, Michael Albert, Parecon, etc.). This way s/he tried to minimize the significance of the ID project as a theoretical project, given that the latter depends on the amount of Research devoted to this project, either by Takis Fotopoulos, who originated it and other supporters of it, or by critics of it.
In the following cases, Spylab tried to diminish the work of Fotopoulos on the ID project by removing any reference to him, as is shown in important extracts like the following: a) Intro: "The theoretical project of Inclusive Democracy (ID) — as distinguished from the political project which is part of the democratic and autonomy traditions — emerged from the work of political philosopher, former academic and activist Takis Fotopoulos…" (the phrase in bold has been removed in the very Introduction to the entire entry)
b) In "See Also", he also deliberately removed Takis Fotopoulos’s name from the references about the entry!!
At the Intro, the text before Spylab's sweeping intervention was: "Inclusive Democracy is a political theory and political project that aims for direct democracy, economic democracy in a stateless, moneyless and marketless economy, self-management (democracy in the social realm), and [[ecological democracy]. The theoretical project of Inclusive Democracy (ID), as distinguished from the political project which is part of the democratic and autonomy traditions, emerged..." etc.
Spylab initially removed the extract "as distinguished from the political project which is part of the democratic and autonomy traditions," while s/he separated the sentence about the theoretical project from the sentence about the political project, and then s/he cited the need for "clarification"!
ANSWER: In fact, these two notions (political and theoretical project) should NOT be separated, because there is an intrinsic relation between them. A political project is a project emerging in the History of the social struggle ( autonomist movement, socialist movement etc), whereas a theoretical project is a project emerging in Political Philosophy and the History of ideas about social change (Castoriadis' autonomy project, Marxism, Bookchin's Social Ecology project , Inclusive Democracy etc). Political philosophers like Karl Marx, Kropotkin and so on simply expressed, in theoretical terms, the aspirations of struggling peoples for radical social change and tried to justify the need for such change. So, to the extent that theoretical projects are adopted by peoples in the social struggle, a project like, for instance, Marxism, is both a theoretical and a political project and in the end the former is subsumed under the latter.
As also stressed by User:John sargis above, on several occasions, when Spylab did not want to make any changes to the text, s/he simply copy-edited the original text, together with all its faults, leaving untouched wrong punctuation marks, even misspellings! This makes clear that in effect his real activity was not for copy-editing but distortion! Panlis ( talk) 13:07, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
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On this article, as well as the articles on Democracy & Nature and Takis Fotopoulos, John sargis has repeatedly violated his topic ban. I remind that, as per this discussion, he and Panlis had been topic-banned from all articles related to Inclusive Democracy, broadly construed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.231.42 ( talk) 11:20, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
If we appropriately reduce the amount of primary source material (by Takis Fotopoulos) here, not much remains. Coverage of Fotopoulos's philosophy and the academics who responded to it can easily be covered within context of the parent article's dedicated section. czar 05:04, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
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I uploaded a modified version of the Inclusive Democracy entry. This has nothing to do with the original one which was based on the corresponding Routledge entry and caused the copy vio. User: Narap43, 10:40 (UTC), 27 December 2005
---SOMEBODY VANDALIZED THE PAGE JUST BEFORE WITH A PORNIGRAPHIC PICTURE. SHOULDN'T SOMEONE SEARCH WHO DID IT?-- TheVel 13:23, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
It is well known that every entry here (or anywhere in Wikipedia for that matter) leaves its trace in the History page. Why the pornographic entry, which stayed here for over an hour, left no trace at all in the history page? But, even if this vandalising entry somehow did not leave any trace in the History page surely it left its trace in your monitors and therefore you know the IP of the vandaliser. OK?
I watched the Administrators' behaviour with respect to the Inclusive Democracy (ID) entry and I could only characterise it as a perfect example of authoritarianism mixed with ignorance.
First, you discovered possible copyright violation in the ID entry with respect to the corresponding entry in the Inclusive Democracy.org webpage and the relevant Routledge Encyclopedia entry. Then, the webmaster of the ID webpage wrote to you and explained that there was no such violation as he has the copyrights for all the contents of his webpage. Furthermore, he created a new temp. page on ID which has little relation to the old one and consequently to the one in Routledge. You ignored him. Instead a supposed 'expert' in copyrights violations, under the name karmafist yesterday deleted the temp page WITH NO EXPLANATION AT ALL. When today the webmaster posted the same page, another 'expert' under the name Ulayiti deleted the page again, OFFERING ALSO NO EXPLANATION AT ALL.
Could you stop behaving in such an arbitrary way and explain what is wrong with the temp. page? The fact that it contains parts of the old entry, for anyone with an elementary knowledge of copyrights legislation, is not a violation, particularly if the author of both entries is one and the same: Takis Fotopoulos! Had you checked for instance the entries on Participatory Economics by Michael Albert in his own webpage and elsewhere against the WP entry on Participatory Economics you would have found dozens of cases of similar 'violations'.
Alternatively, if you have no explanation for your arbitrary actions then you have to restore the temp. page as the new ID entry--unless of course, as one may suspect, the reasons for your action have much more to do with the political content of ID which is clearly against the political affiliations of most administrators--particularly those deleting the temp.page-- (rather than with any copyright violations!
I have prepared a new version of the Inclusive Democracy entry for use exlusively for Wikipedia purposes. Does this resolve any possible copyright problems?? User:Narap43, 15:30, 29 December (UTC)
Can you be more specific on why the new version also appears to be a copyvio because alternatively you simply abuse your power? A mMember of the International Network for Inclusive Democracy, 16:35, 31 Dec. 2005
1. We, the members of the Editorial Board of Democracy & Nature (D&N) and its present successor The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy (IJID) have, over the last few days, witnessed a concerted attack against the journal by an alliance of sockpuppets (who have been created by a disgruntled ex-member of the journal with a vendetta against us) and some administrators who are either apolitical (not in the sense of party politics but in the sense of a fundamental lack of understanding of politics in the broader sense) or who do not hide their hostility towards the Inclusive Democracy political agenda. This ‘unholy’ alliance has attempted to delete all Inclusive Democracy entries in Wikipedia and in some cases it has already succeeded in doing this.
2. The reasons for which Wikipedia have attempted to substantiate their AfDs range from silly WP copyright violations (from our own webpages!-- which, if applied to all WP entries, would lead to most of them being eclipsed) to arbitrary ‘assessments’ of the notability and significance of our entries. Such ‘assessments’ are given either by administrators who do not have any expertise on the topics they are assessing, or by others following their own political agenda which is at the opposite end of the political spectrum to the Inclusive Democracy project.
3. We find it humiliating, to say the least, to be subjected to this pseudo-democratic process which defames not only our journals, which have been honoured to have had as contributors and members of their Editorial Boards well-known writers such as Steven Best, Murray Bookchin, Pierre Bourdieu, Cornelius Castoriadis, Noam Chomsky, Takis Fotopoulos, Andre Gunder Frank, Serge Latouche, Harold Pinter-- and many other equally important writers who do not have similar WP entries—but also our subscribers who have, in the past, included such notable institutions as Michigan State University, University of Maryland, University of Wisconsin, London School of Economics, University of Massachusetts, Stanford University, Simon Fraser University, Hamburg Library, University of New South Wales, University of Canterbury, Kent; Universidade de Coimbra, Portugal; Harvard College Library,Iinternational Institute of Social History, Amsterdam; Formazione ii Biblioteca, Palermo; Bath University and many others. Furthermore, we find this process equally humiliating to the authors of hundreds of references and citations to D&N and IJID in books, journals, magazines, and electronic media.
4. Finally, we find appaling the fact that, through Wikipedia’s so-called assessment process, self-anointed administrators, with no guarantee at all of any expertise in the fields they assess, use their wide-ranging powers to decide which pieces of knowledge and information are appropriate enough to be included in Wikipedia. These powers include discounting the votes of registered users who are not long-established--even if their expertise is much more relevant to the topics assessed than that of the administrators, as the irrelevant comments of these administrators frequently show. These built-in fatal errors in assessment—only some of which have been mentioned--could go a long way in explaining the growing literature in the world press on the low standard of knowledge and information provided by Wikipedia.
5. When we created the WP Inclusive Democracy entries, we were functioning as bona fide new users thinking that we were helping the development of a free and supposedly democratic encyclopaedia that could function as an alternative source of information to the established encyclopaedias. We were utterly disappointed when we discovered the irresponsible and completely unreliable way in which knowledge on important matters is supposedly created by this supposedly alternative encyclopaedia, which clearly will never reach the standards of the established encyclopaedias because of the fatal structural flaws mentioned. Therefore, the sooner it is disqualified as an authoritative source of knowledge, the better.
6. In light of the above we have decided the following:
a) to withdraw with immediate effect ALL the Inclusive Democracy entries from Wikipedia, including those that have been challenged only on account of trivial Wikipedia copyright violations, as well as those like the entry on the founder of Inclusive Democracy, Takis Fotopoulos, which has not been challenged by anyone during this whole process. b) to demand the banning of any new entry on the following topics: Inclusive Democracy, Democracy & Nature, The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy, The International Network for Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos. We reserve all our legal rights in case any future entries on these topics are created in Wikipedia without our explicit and written permission.
The Editorial Committee of The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy Narap43, 17:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Since yesterday’s announcement some of the main points we made in it have already been confirmed! Thanks to the technical work of some administrators who showed that they function without any political agendas against us but instead attempted to find out the truth, Paul Cardan (the disgruntled ex-member of the journal with a vendetta against us who was the main cause of the first AfD against Democracy & Nature through his repeated vandalising attacks against it) and User:DisposableAccount (who proposed the deletion of the successor journal to D&N and with the support of two (2) administrators managed to have it deleted), Llbb and Bbll (who persuaded other administrators to keep the page deleted) are all the same editor! [4]
Meanwhile, other administrators still doubt whether the present announcement is a genuine Editorial Board announcement. Here is the proof:
http://www.inclusivedemocracy.org/journal/newsletter/Wikipedia.htm
The Editorial Committee of The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy
11:19 (UTC) January 2, 2006 User:Narap43
Either the disputed content was or was not released under the GFDL. If it was, then it cannot be taken back. If not, then the above announcement is false when it claims the copyvio objection was groundless. Either way, the above announcement lacks credibility. --- Charles Stewart 18:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
I am considering nominating this page for deletion under Articles for Deletion in accordance with Wikipedia:Notability:
Please bolster the article's case for notability, if possible.
In the alternative, please develop the article with more content. Right now it is obviously just a submarine advertisement for a political philosophy, with only enough text so that it can call itself an article and get the reader to use the external links. I have to warn you that without a solid case for notability, the article will continue to be in danger of deletion. However, as a matter of personal choice, I will not personally initiate the deletion process as long as someone puts some actual content in.
Drake Dun 10:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I added a lot of new material, first, to give more info on the aspects of the Inclusive Democracy project and, second, to establish the notability of the article. Also, many links to online and printed resources are given.
User:narap43 9:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
All four references to parecon are misleading:
"This implies a new definition of economic efficiency, based not on narrow techno-economic criteria of input minimisation/output maximization as in socialist models like Parecon, but on criteria securing full coverage of the democratically defined basic needs of all citizens as well as of the non-basic needs they decide to meet -- even if this involves a certain amount of inefficiency according to the orthodox economics criteria."
Parecon is not based on input minimization and product maximization, but on value maximization, that is, satisfying the needs of consumers (citizens). For example, the citizens can decide that a process that uses more inputs and produces fewer products is preferable because it makes the work more enjoyable. About basic needs, see below.
"This is so because economic decision making is carried out by the entire community, through the citizens' assemblies, where people make the fundamental macro-economic decisions which affect the whole community, as citizens, rather than as vocationally oriented groups (e.g. workers, as e.g. in Parecon [8])."
The sentence is flatly false. Parecon's consumer councils play the same role as ID's citizen assemblies. The only reason parecon theory refers to consumers rather than citizens is because it focuses on the economic aspects of social organization. Participatory polity, which is the extension of parecon to politics, focuses on the political aspects.
"The main characteristic of the proposed model, which also differentiates it from socialist planning models like Parecon, is that it explicitly presupposes a stateless, money-less and market-less economy that precludes private accumulation of wealth and the institutionalisation of privileges for some sections of society, without relying on a post-scarcity state of abundance, or sacrificing freedom of choice."
The sentence falsely suggests that parecon is based on a market economy, based on a state, and allows the institutionalization of privileges for some sectors of society, or relies on a post-scarcity state of abundance, or sacrifices freedom of choice any more than ID. Parecon does not do any of these. Whether it allows the accumulation of wealth depends on what that means. The only real difference from parecon is ID's money-less economy.
"Thus, unlike Parecon where basic needs are satisfied thanks to public goods and to compassion,[10] ID is based on the principle that meeting basic needs is a fundamental human right which is guaranteed to anybody who offers a minimal amount of work."
What compassion? Parecon guarantees an average income to those who cannot get income by working -- the unemployed and the infirm. ID guarantees basic goods to everyone who can work a minimally. Both are based on compassion, and that is not a weakness of either. Also, parecon does not assume that everyone's basic needs are the same, so it offers more freedom of choice. Also, it seems that ID in fact assumes abundance of basic goods in order to guarantee them to everyone. That assumption may not hold, for example, in time of war or natural disaster.
- Pgan002 ( talk) 20:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
All four defences of Parecon above are biased and false
“Parecon is not based on input minimization and product maximization, but on value maximization, that is, satisfying the needs of consumers (citizens). For example, the citizens can decide that a process that uses more inputs and produces fewer products is preferable because it makes the work more enjoyable. About basic needs, see below”.
The discussant obviously has no idea what the issue is about. The issue is not what is the objective of production (value maximization, etc.), but what definition of efficiency Albert and Hahnel adopt and as Fotopoulos points out in his critique of Parecon (“Inclusive Democracy and Participatory Economics”, DEMOCRACY & NATURE: vol.9, no.3, (November 2003) “in the pursuit of respectability and recognition by the ‘serious’ economists,( i.e. the orthodox economics profession teaching in universities, etc.) the authors adopt unreservedly even what themselves call ‘the traditional view’ that a desirable economy should be ‘efficient’ and they then proceed to adopt the orthodox Paretian optimality conditions ‘as a useful definition of social efficiency’ (M. Albert’s and R. Hahnel’s ‘The Political Economy of Participatory Economics’ (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991, p. 9). Of course, these optimality conditions imply input minimization or output maximization!
“The sentence is flatly false. Parecon's consumer councils play the same role as ID's citizen assemblies. The only reason parecon theory refers to consumers rather than citizens is because it focuses on the economic aspects of social organization. Participatory polity, which is the extension of parecon to politics, focuses on the political aspects.”
This is another typical example of the biased defence of Parecon by the discussant. Fotopoulos says the same thing, but he draws a very different conclusion: “Given the nature of Parecon as purely an economic model, it is not surprising that the main actors in it are determined in the economic field. Thus, the concept of citizen is completely missing from the Parecon model and is replaced instead by workers and consumers”. And further on he explains why the compartmentalization of people into workers and consumers and the identification of consumers with citizens attempted by Parecon is completely irrelevant to democracy: “However, the dual council structure proposed by Parecon, instead of creating an all round personality of citizen as citizen who expresses the general interest, it enhances the market economy’s division of people as consumers and workers, and is inevitably leading to the creation of particular interests, which potentially may come in conflict with each other… In other words, people as workers may have conflicting ideas, views and possibly even interests with people as consumers, and the dualism between workers and consumers councils enhances competition between them.”
“The sentence falsely suggests that parecon is based on a market economy, based on a state, and allows the institutionalization of privileges for some sectors of society, or relies on a post-scarcity state of abundance, or sacrifices freedom of choice any more than ID. Parecon does not do any of these. Whether it allows the accumulation of wealth depends on what that means. The only real difference from parecon is ID's money-less economy.”
This is a pure distortion of the sentence in the ID entry which does not say that Parecon is based on a market economy (Fotopoulos has recognized the non-market nature of Parecon anyway: “Parecon is, of course, in accord with the ID project as far as it concerns the rejection of the market mechanism as incompatible with self-management”). What it does say is that “socialist Planning models like Parecon” have characteristics that are missing from ID, like a state-based economy (Parecon does not explicitly propose a stateless economy, like ID does, but simply demands compatibility of “political institutions” with the economic institutions: “institutions existing alongside a Parecon will have to respect balanced job complexes, remuneration for effort and sacrifice, and self-management and…will have to interface with participatory planning’ (Parecon, p. 287)). Furthermore, Parecon does not assume, unlike ID, a moneyless economy, (as the discussant admits) and this makes possible the accumulation of wealth in a Parecon system and so on.
“What compassion? Parecon guarantees an average income to those who cannot get income by working -- the unemployed and the infirm. ID guarantees basic goods to everyone who can work a minimally. Both are based on compassion, and that is not a weakness of either. Also, parecon does not assume that everyone's basic needs are the same, so it offers more freedom of choice. Also, it seems that ID in fact assumes abundance of basic goods in order to guarantee them to everyone. That assumption may not hold, for example, in time of war or natural disaster.”
This is either a complete misunderstanding of what ID proposes or a pure distortion of it in order to defend Parecon. ID does not assume that everybody’s needs are the same nor it assumes abundance of basic goods, or compassion! What is a basic need in ID is not determined “objectively”, but by the democratic decisions of citizens who also assess at what level such needs can be met given the scarcity of resources. Then, the way basic and non-basic needs are met is decided individually by each citizen through the use of vouchers or special credit cards - a way securing real freedom of choice, in contrast to the bureaucratic way in which consumer needs are met in Parecon. As for compassion, this is a bourgeois principle adopted by Parecon, whereas ID bases the meeting of basic needs on the communist principle “from each according to his ability to each according to his/her needs”.
John sargis ( talk) 22:05, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I eliminated redundances and original investigations in cats (cats work like that: A contents B). But some users don't want to understand it. Please see: WP:POINT. -- Nihilo 01 ( talk) 16:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
My recent edit was reverted twice, by an editor who falsely accused me on my talk page of "re-writing the entire entry without providing valid reasons". If anyone cares to actually look at my edit (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Inclusive_Democracy&diff=588427855&oldid=586933790), one will see that I merely copy edited some sections of the article and improved the organization, all within Wikipedia guidelines. Some of my changes in that edit are as uncontroversial as deleting or adding lines of space. I certainly did not "rewrite" the article, delete content or change the substance or meaning at all. Note that at the top of this talk page, it says "This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale." For a detailed explanation of that rating, which means the article needs to be improved, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Politics/Assessment#Quality_scale Spylab ( talk) 23:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Inclusive_Democracy&diff=588427855&oldid=586933790
User:Spylab, as was noted by 2 users above and was already alerted in his talk page, proceeded in the last 2-3 days in sweeping-mass edits and continuous reverts in the Inclusive Democracy (ID) entry, although s/he was asked to do his changes one-by-one and justify them. In reality, under the pretext of simple "copy/editing" and "reorganization", it can be shown that s/he managed to effectively diminish the content of the entry and the work of the contributors in the entry and the ID project, whereas at the same time s/he did not do the required copy-editing changes, where they were needed in the original text before his/her repeated reversions of it and mass edits on it. This shows beyond any doubt that his/her motive was far from improving the text. I will explain why and, trying to show good faith, I will implement some of his/her alterations in the entry.
Spylab moved all "PRINTED RESOURCES" (apart from two!) to "EXTERNAL LINKS" (see line 133 at [5]), whereas in all other relevant Wiki entries, printed resources belong to "FURTHER READING" and the External Links are restricted to online sources of reference (see e.g. entries of Murray Bookchin, Cornelius Castoriadis, Michael Albert, Parecon, etc.). This way s/he tried to minimize the significance of the ID project as a theoretical project, given that the latter depends on the amount of Research devoted to this project, either by Takis Fotopoulos, who originated it and other supporters of it, or by critics of it.
In the following cases, Spylab tried to diminish the work of Fotopoulos on the ID project by removing any reference to him, as is shown in important extracts like the following: a) Intro: "The theoretical project of Inclusive Democracy (ID) — as distinguished from the political project which is part of the democratic and autonomy traditions — emerged from the work of political philosopher, former academic and activist Takis Fotopoulos…" (the phrase in bold has been removed in the very Introduction to the entire entry)
b) In "See Also", he also deliberately removed Takis Fotopoulos’s name from the references about the entry!!
At the Intro, the text before Spylab's sweeping intervention was: "Inclusive Democracy is a political theory and political project that aims for direct democracy, economic democracy in a stateless, moneyless and marketless economy, self-management (democracy in the social realm), and [[ecological democracy]. The theoretical project of Inclusive Democracy (ID), as distinguished from the political project which is part of the democratic and autonomy traditions, emerged..." etc.
Spylab initially removed the extract "as distinguished from the political project which is part of the democratic and autonomy traditions," while s/he separated the sentence about the theoretical project from the sentence about the political project, and then s/he cited the need for "clarification"!
ANSWER: In fact, these two notions (political and theoretical project) should NOT be separated, because there is an intrinsic relation between them. A political project is a project emerging in the History of the social struggle ( autonomist movement, socialist movement etc), whereas a theoretical project is a project emerging in Political Philosophy and the History of ideas about social change (Castoriadis' autonomy project, Marxism, Bookchin's Social Ecology project , Inclusive Democracy etc). Political philosophers like Karl Marx, Kropotkin and so on simply expressed, in theoretical terms, the aspirations of struggling peoples for radical social change and tried to justify the need for such change. So, to the extent that theoretical projects are adopted by peoples in the social struggle, a project like, for instance, Marxism, is both a theoretical and a political project and in the end the former is subsumed under the latter.
As also stressed by User:John sargis above, on several occasions, when Spylab did not want to make any changes to the text, s/he simply copy-edited the original text, together with all its faults, leaving untouched wrong punctuation marks, even misspellings! This makes clear that in effect his real activity was not for copy-editing but distortion! Panlis ( talk) 13:07, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
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On this article, as well as the articles on Democracy & Nature and Takis Fotopoulos, John sargis has repeatedly violated his topic ban. I remind that, as per this discussion, he and Panlis had been topic-banned from all articles related to Inclusive Democracy, broadly construed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.205.231.42 ( talk) 11:20, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
If we appropriately reduce the amount of primary source material (by Takis Fotopoulos) here, not much remains. Coverage of Fotopoulos's philosophy and the academics who responded to it can easily be covered within context of the parent article's dedicated section. czar 05:04, 14 March 2023 (UTC)