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About the recent move to split out a separate Imia/Kardak crisis article: I'm not convinced that's a good idea. It's not that we couldn't have such an article – but where would that leave this one? The present article is not a stand-alone "geography" article that could simply describe the islands as such, independently of the conflict. There simply isn't enough to say about them. Their geographical description doesn't take more than two sentences. The main weight of the present article is about the politics and legal situation. Without the politics, you cannot properly understand the military crisis, and without the military crisis, you cannot understand the politics. Plus, you cannot understand the military crisis without the basic geography either.
In other words: pretty much everything that's in the one article would have to be repeated in the other to make that article understood, and the same goes other way round. Or: no reader would ever want to read the one article without also reading the other.
In such a situation, having two separate articles simply makes no sense. I get the feeling the main impetus behind wanting the new "crisis" article was to have a hook to hang a "military conflict infobox" on, at the top of the page. Creating an article just to be able to have a box is a serious case of the tail wagging the dog. And the infobox as such is not very useful anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:56, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
There is adequate information and sources to have a separate article. That is the basic principle. Saying the island article will have restated information is not an important enough point. Many articles in Wikipedia have a few sentence summary then "See: <name of other article>". Actually, a crisis article could cover far, far more information than is currently presented. Charliestalnaker ( talk) 16:14, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
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The Turkish name of the rocks is Kardak and it should also be added there. Thanks 78.135.31.190 ( talk) 18:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
Reference 2 is not active, and leads to a commercial page. AshleyTheBat ( talk) 20:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
User:ShovelandSpade has repeatedly tried to insert an explicit characterization of Imia as a "Greek island", "disputed by Turkey", in the lead sentence (
[1],
[2],
[3]), with two alleged sources. Now, of course, whether it's a "Greek island" or a "Turkish island" is exactly the issue of international dispute here, and calling it "Greek" in Wikipedia's own voice in the very lead sentence is tantamount to Wikipedia's explicitly taking sides and declaring the Greek position to be correct and the Turkish position to be wrong. It should be clear to everybody here that we can't do that under
WP:NPOV. The sources don't change anything about that. The first one, Schofield (Pratt, Martin; Schofield, Clive (1996).
"The Imia/Kardak Rocks Dispute in the Aegean Sea" (PDF). durham.ac.com.) supports nothing of the kind anyway – Schofield is very careful in remaining agnostic about the merits of the competing legal claims (quote: The key question in a historical analysis of the status of Imia/Kardak Rocks is whether they form part of the Dodecanese group. If so, the Greek claim appears to be virtually irresistible; if not, then the situation is much less clear cut. Perhaps inevitably, this question is not as easy to answer as it might first appear.
) The second source,
"Imia 101: Why is the rocky Aegean islet back in the headlines?". Medium. 2017-02-14. Retrieved 2024-06-01., does of course make the explicit judgment, but then this is a source published by a Greek think-tank and as such obviously non-neutral (and of doubtful
WP:RS status to boot). It's no surprise that Greek sources will overwhelmingly assert the validity of the Greek claim, just as Turkish sources will equally overwhelmingly assert the Turkish claim. Citing either the one or the other type of source for this is of no value whatsoever, because these are statements of opinion, not of fact, and on Wikipedia, even if an opinion is reliably sourced, we don't simply make it our own but only report it as an opinion (if anything). The only situation where we could be justified in making such a definite call on the issue and simply endorsing one country's claim as the correct one would be if we could show that this opinion is the overwhelmingly predominant consensus opinion in outside, third-party scholarship, to an extent where we could treat the opposite claim as a "fringe" position. But that is clearly not the case here, and even if it were, we'd need radically more and different sourcing for it.
These edits will be reverted again. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:26, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Given this state of discussion here, I'm going to revert the page back to its stable consensus form once again. You will not push through your change through brute force of edit-warring. If you want to pursue these additions further, don't bother debating here more – you have no hope of convincing me, and I have no ambition to convince you. Without consensus, your change stays out. If you want to achieve consensus for it (which you won't), please try something such as gaining a Third opinion or whatever other avenue of dispute resolution you fancy. If you keep reverting your changes back in without first having a clear consensus for them, you will go straight to WP:AE for sanctioning. I've noticed you've been disruptive on other pages too, so a topic ban is likely to wait for you when admins have a closer look at your behavior. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Imia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Imia/Kardak be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
![]() | This article may be within the scope of Greek and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board. Please see the project page for more details, to request intervention on the notification board or peruse other tasks. |
![]() | This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
Discussions:
|
About the recent move to split out a separate Imia/Kardak crisis article: I'm not convinced that's a good idea. It's not that we couldn't have such an article – but where would that leave this one? The present article is not a stand-alone "geography" article that could simply describe the islands as such, independently of the conflict. There simply isn't enough to say about them. Their geographical description doesn't take more than two sentences. The main weight of the present article is about the politics and legal situation. Without the politics, you cannot properly understand the military crisis, and without the military crisis, you cannot understand the politics. Plus, you cannot understand the military crisis without the basic geography either.
In other words: pretty much everything that's in the one article would have to be repeated in the other to make that article understood, and the same goes other way round. Or: no reader would ever want to read the one article without also reading the other.
In such a situation, having two separate articles simply makes no sense. I get the feeling the main impetus behind wanting the new "crisis" article was to have a hook to hang a "military conflict infobox" on, at the top of the page. Creating an article just to be able to have a box is a serious case of the tail wagging the dog. And the infobox as such is not very useful anyway. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:56, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
There is adequate information and sources to have a separate article. That is the basic principle. Saying the island article will have restated information is not an important enough point. Many articles in Wikipedia have a few sentence summary then "See: <name of other article>". Actually, a crisis article could cover far, far more information than is currently presented. Charliestalnaker ( talk) 16:14, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The Turkish name of the rocks is Kardak and it should also be added there. Thanks 78.135.31.190 ( talk) 18:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
Reference 2 is not active, and leads to a commercial page. AshleyTheBat ( talk) 20:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
User:ShovelandSpade has repeatedly tried to insert an explicit characterization of Imia as a "Greek island", "disputed by Turkey", in the lead sentence (
[1],
[2],
[3]), with two alleged sources. Now, of course, whether it's a "Greek island" or a "Turkish island" is exactly the issue of international dispute here, and calling it "Greek" in Wikipedia's own voice in the very lead sentence is tantamount to Wikipedia's explicitly taking sides and declaring the Greek position to be correct and the Turkish position to be wrong. It should be clear to everybody here that we can't do that under
WP:NPOV. The sources don't change anything about that. The first one, Schofield (Pratt, Martin; Schofield, Clive (1996).
"The Imia/Kardak Rocks Dispute in the Aegean Sea" (PDF). durham.ac.com.) supports nothing of the kind anyway – Schofield is very careful in remaining agnostic about the merits of the competing legal claims (quote: The key question in a historical analysis of the status of Imia/Kardak Rocks is whether they form part of the Dodecanese group. If so, the Greek claim appears to be virtually irresistible; if not, then the situation is much less clear cut. Perhaps inevitably, this question is not as easy to answer as it might first appear.
) The second source,
"Imia 101: Why is the rocky Aegean islet back in the headlines?". Medium. 2017-02-14. Retrieved 2024-06-01., does of course make the explicit judgment, but then this is a source published by a Greek think-tank and as such obviously non-neutral (and of doubtful
WP:RS status to boot). It's no surprise that Greek sources will overwhelmingly assert the validity of the Greek claim, just as Turkish sources will equally overwhelmingly assert the Turkish claim. Citing either the one or the other type of source for this is of no value whatsoever, because these are statements of opinion, not of fact, and on Wikipedia, even if an opinion is reliably sourced, we don't simply make it our own but only report it as an opinion (if anything). The only situation where we could be justified in making such a definite call on the issue and simply endorsing one country's claim as the correct one would be if we could show that this opinion is the overwhelmingly predominant consensus opinion in outside, third-party scholarship, to an extent where we could treat the opposite claim as a "fringe" position. But that is clearly not the case here, and even if it were, we'd need radically more and different sourcing for it.
These edits will be reverted again. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:26, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Given this state of discussion here, I'm going to revert the page back to its stable consensus form once again. You will not push through your change through brute force of edit-warring. If you want to pursue these additions further, don't bother debating here more – you have no hope of convincing me, and I have no ambition to convince you. Without consensus, your change stays out. If you want to achieve consensus for it (which you won't), please try something such as gaining a Third opinion or whatever other avenue of dispute resolution you fancy. If you keep reverting your changes back in without first having a clear consensus for them, you will go straight to WP:AE for sanctioning. I've noticed you've been disruptive on other pages too, so a topic ban is likely to wait for you when admins have a closer look at your behavior. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)