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Archive 1 |
Fox News on January 1, 2007 had a report on the al-Mahdi Scouts, a youth wing of the Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. The really interesting thing is, outwardly, they look very much like traditional Scouts, with the normal uniforms (light and medium blue, white, yellow and purple for different groups) and badges and all. The flags being flown from cars and along the roadside showed the emblem, again a traditional fleur-de-lis, whose petals are left-to-right green/white/red, and in the top center of which is a hand with an out-turned palm, possibly the Hand of Fatima, and supported on left and right by single scimitars. Can anyone support/document this? In itself it would be a most interesting article. Chris 07:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Looks like we may have an edit war starting if. Everyone please work it out peacefully on the talk page first or I'll have to protect the article. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not following the edit summary reasoning for the revert on my work. Please clarify. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 09:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Requesting an explanation to the use of "Imam al-Mahdi Scouts' status in Scouting is unknown." is this based on any of the cited sources? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 09:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Rather than resorting to proceedures too soon, why don't we label the statement with a request for a reference (there's a template somewhere) and leave it a week or so to see what appears? Or suggest an alternative wording that better expresses this point? What do you think? Kingbird ( talk) 06:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Is your suggestion simple enough to be explained first in my new section below? That might keep everyone feeling happier. Sorry if starting a new section has complicated where to write things! Kingbird ( talk) 08:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been looking around on the internet to see what I can discover regarding this group's relationship to the Lebanese Scouting Foundation and hence to WOSM.
The Lebanese Scouting Foundation website () doesn't list its members. It only mentions there are 29 of them. The WOSM website gives an imcomplete list of members of this Federation by its own admission, but doesn't mention this group. The CSS document referenced in the article already says that this group is "associated with the Federation of Lebanese Scouts". I understand this to mean it is one of the members of the Lebanese Scouting Foundation. I see no reason to disbelieve the CSS document on this point. If they had wished to discredit this group using this point, it would have been better to say that it wasn't part of the Lebanese Scouting Foundation.
Although I can't read this group's own webpage, I notice that their front page currently displays the logo of a scheme run by the Lebanese Scouting Foundation and of the Foundation itself. When this image is clicked on, it goes to a document that prominently displays these logos. This doesn't help us much as this could indicate a number of scenarios, although it does suggest they are on speaking terms!
In the light of this, I suggest that the paragraph that currently reads:
Imam al-Mahdi Scouts' status in Scouting is unknown. There are no reliable sources on the members of the Lebanese Scouting Federation - according to some sources this militant anti-zionist organization is a member of the federation and of the World Organization of the Scout Movement.[1][2]
is updated to:
Iman al-Mahdi Scouts is a militant, anti-zionist youth organization. It is part of the Lebanese Scouting Foundation and through them, the World Organization of the Scout Movement.[1] [2]
Just to be explicit about the referencing, both references remain. Any thoughts? Kingbird ( talk) 07:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Yet unused. -- jergen ( talk) 12:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I found some new pictures from January and February 2008 on the web:
Maybe the informations on the pictures and in the texts can be used. - Phips ( talk) 12:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Everything is stated in this ref: <ref name=CSS/> [7], please revert back and/or rephrase to your liking, but don't remove the cited reporting. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
I couldn't fully follow the reasoning behind
these changes. I'd really appreciate a short explanation that elaborates on the edit summaries made.
With respect, Jaakobou Chalk Talk 19:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is misleading. If I were a Lebanese Muslim parent and read the Wikipedia article, I might get the impression this is a good place to send my kids. Yet there are pictures of little kids in camouflage uniform in the materials linked from this article. Hezbollah is listed as a terrorist organization by just about everyone, but the word "terrorist" doesn't appear in the Wikipedia article. According to Roz el Youssef, the kids are trained in military tactics from a young age. According to information appearing in the calendar put out by this group, over 120 of these "scouts" have died in Hezbollah actions, including suicide bombings -- it is not clear of those are graduates or kids still in the movement. That gives a better idea of what this group is. According to Ronen Bergman's "Point of No Return" (in Hebrew - coming out in English in April) "In the camps, the youth undergo basic training in weaponry alongside physical education classes and disciplinary drill."(Ronen Bergman, Nekudat Ha'al Hazor, Kinneret, Zmora Bitan, 2007, p.404) At least, there should be some pictures of those kids and the quote from Roz el Yousef that is in one of the references given. Mewnews ( talk) 15:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The sentence you quote in bold from the article was originally written by me. When I came across a news article that had information about this group, I added it to existing material, because there didn't seem to be a lot of information about this group available and that by adding the information I could glean I thought I would be helping to make the article better than before. I knew that the report would have a bias (like every news item) and that the group would present themselves how they want to be seen and avoid controversial issues, and that I myself have my own biases. I think the group can reasonably do all these activities as well as the military ones mentioned elsewhere in the article. I didn't see any reason why the activities I listed were controverial, so I didn't add a reference to that particular sentence. I did remember to explicitly state the source of scoutmaster's statement about joining the armed resistance, so people can judge for themselves what biases might be acting on this heated topic. I didn't go and read the sources quoted by the article and add more information from them. That's how the "selective referencing" arose. It wasn't a premeditated attempt on anyone's part. I don't have personal experience of this group, but if I did it wouldn't matter. I know that no original research is allowed on wikipedia and that anyone can ask where any information originates. I'm sorry I have upset you and that my work hasn't improved the article in your opinion. I hope future iterations of this article will be improvements in your opinion. Kingbird ( talk) 05:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hezbollah Marshals the Young via Scout Troops
--—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 11:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1874816_1836730,00.html was just posted to the Mahdi Scout article. It says
Your thoughts? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) ( talk) 06:14, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi there,
The Scouts have a new Logo (emblem). Can somebody update it.
Source and logo: http://www.almahdiscouts.net/uploaded/groups/almahdi-scouts-logo.jpg Bigmz ( talk) 22:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Fox News on January 1, 2007 had a report on the al-Mahdi Scouts, a youth wing of the Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. The really interesting thing is, outwardly, they look very much like traditional Scouts, with the normal uniforms (light and medium blue, white, yellow and purple for different groups) and badges and all. The flags being flown from cars and along the roadside showed the emblem, again a traditional fleur-de-lis, whose petals are left-to-right green/white/red, and in the top center of which is a hand with an out-turned palm, possibly the Hand of Fatima, and supported on left and right by single scimitars. Can anyone support/document this? In itself it would be a most interesting article. Chris 07:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Looks like we may have an edit war starting if. Everyone please work it out peacefully on the talk page first or I'll have to protect the article. — Rlevse • Talk • 10:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not following the edit summary reasoning for the revert on my work. Please clarify. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 09:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Requesting an explanation to the use of "Imam al-Mahdi Scouts' status in Scouting is unknown." is this based on any of the cited sources? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 09:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Rather than resorting to proceedures too soon, why don't we label the statement with a request for a reference (there's a template somewhere) and leave it a week or so to see what appears? Or suggest an alternative wording that better expresses this point? What do you think? Kingbird ( talk) 06:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Is your suggestion simple enough to be explained first in my new section below? That might keep everyone feeling happier. Sorry if starting a new section has complicated where to write things! Kingbird ( talk) 08:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been looking around on the internet to see what I can discover regarding this group's relationship to the Lebanese Scouting Foundation and hence to WOSM.
The Lebanese Scouting Foundation website () doesn't list its members. It only mentions there are 29 of them. The WOSM website gives an imcomplete list of members of this Federation by its own admission, but doesn't mention this group. The CSS document referenced in the article already says that this group is "associated with the Federation of Lebanese Scouts". I understand this to mean it is one of the members of the Lebanese Scouting Foundation. I see no reason to disbelieve the CSS document on this point. If they had wished to discredit this group using this point, it would have been better to say that it wasn't part of the Lebanese Scouting Foundation.
Although I can't read this group's own webpage, I notice that their front page currently displays the logo of a scheme run by the Lebanese Scouting Foundation and of the Foundation itself. When this image is clicked on, it goes to a document that prominently displays these logos. This doesn't help us much as this could indicate a number of scenarios, although it does suggest they are on speaking terms!
In the light of this, I suggest that the paragraph that currently reads:
Imam al-Mahdi Scouts' status in Scouting is unknown. There are no reliable sources on the members of the Lebanese Scouting Federation - according to some sources this militant anti-zionist organization is a member of the federation and of the World Organization of the Scout Movement.[1][2]
is updated to:
Iman al-Mahdi Scouts is a militant, anti-zionist youth organization. It is part of the Lebanese Scouting Foundation and through them, the World Organization of the Scout Movement.[1] [2]
Just to be explicit about the referencing, both references remain. Any thoughts? Kingbird ( talk) 07:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Yet unused. -- jergen ( talk) 12:20, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I found some new pictures from January and February 2008 on the web:
Maybe the informations on the pictures and in the texts can be used. - Phips ( talk) 12:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Everything is stated in this ref: <ref name=CSS/> [7], please revert back and/or rephrase to your liking, but don't remove the cited reporting. Jaakobou Chalk Talk 11:39, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi,
I couldn't fully follow the reasoning behind
these changes. I'd really appreciate a short explanation that elaborates on the edit summaries made.
With respect, Jaakobou Chalk Talk 19:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The article is misleading. If I were a Lebanese Muslim parent and read the Wikipedia article, I might get the impression this is a good place to send my kids. Yet there are pictures of little kids in camouflage uniform in the materials linked from this article. Hezbollah is listed as a terrorist organization by just about everyone, but the word "terrorist" doesn't appear in the Wikipedia article. According to Roz el Youssef, the kids are trained in military tactics from a young age. According to information appearing in the calendar put out by this group, over 120 of these "scouts" have died in Hezbollah actions, including suicide bombings -- it is not clear of those are graduates or kids still in the movement. That gives a better idea of what this group is. According to Ronen Bergman's "Point of No Return" (in Hebrew - coming out in English in April) "In the camps, the youth undergo basic training in weaponry alongside physical education classes and disciplinary drill."(Ronen Bergman, Nekudat Ha'al Hazor, Kinneret, Zmora Bitan, 2007, p.404) At least, there should be some pictures of those kids and the quote from Roz el Yousef that is in one of the references given. Mewnews ( talk) 15:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
The sentence you quote in bold from the article was originally written by me. When I came across a news article that had information about this group, I added it to existing material, because there didn't seem to be a lot of information about this group available and that by adding the information I could glean I thought I would be helping to make the article better than before. I knew that the report would have a bias (like every news item) and that the group would present themselves how they want to be seen and avoid controversial issues, and that I myself have my own biases. I think the group can reasonably do all these activities as well as the military ones mentioned elsewhere in the article. I didn't see any reason why the activities I listed were controverial, so I didn't add a reference to that particular sentence. I did remember to explicitly state the source of scoutmaster's statement about joining the armed resistance, so people can judge for themselves what biases might be acting on this heated topic. I didn't go and read the sources quoted by the article and add more information from them. That's how the "selective referencing" arose. It wasn't a premeditated attempt on anyone's part. I don't have personal experience of this group, but if I did it wouldn't matter. I know that no original research is allowed on wikipedia and that anyone can ask where any information originates. I'm sorry I have upset you and that my work hasn't improved the article in your opinion. I hope future iterations of this article will be improvements in your opinion. Kingbird ( talk) 05:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Hezbollah Marshals the Young via Scout Troops
--—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 11:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1874816_1836730,00.html was just posted to the Mahdi Scout article. It says
Your thoughts? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) ( talk) 06:14, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi there,
The Scouts have a new Logo (emblem). Can somebody update it.
Source and logo: http://www.almahdiscouts.net/uploaded/groups/almahdi-scouts-logo.jpg Bigmz ( talk) 22:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Imam al-Mahdi Scouts. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 05:44, 12 November 2017 (UTC)