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Ila (Hinduism) is an article on a Hindu mythological personality, who was the progenitor of most of the Puranic dynasties. I just created it, let me allow to develop.
Joy1963 (
talk)
07:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)reply
Reviewer:Liqudluck✽
talk03:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello! I noticed this on the front page when it was a DYK, so I was poised to notice it on the GA nominations list. It's a very interesting article, and at first glance I don't see any major problems. I'll look more carefully and have my comments up soon.reply
Preliminary glances
For the most part, this article meets the Good Article standard. It is informative, explains
jargon well, and is written in a nice, chronological manner. The prose generally demonstrates good word choice. There are problems with grammar and sentence structure, but those should be easily fixed.
As a woman, Ilā married god Budha, son of Soma and bore him a son called Pururavas, the father of the Ailas ("descendants of Ilā") or the Lunar Dynasty. Delete "or the Lunar Dynasty", and define what the Ailas were.
In the lead, you state Ila is praised as Idā, the goddess of speech, and in Vedic literature you state Ilā is also known as Idā and is identified with Rigvedic goddess of the same name.
First, it appears Ila should be Ilā in Ila is praised as Idā. Second, are Ilā and Idā the same character, or are they separate?
Idā is a synonym of Ila in later Hindu
Puranic literature. The Vedic Idā is like a predecessor of the Puranic Ilā. A similar analogy is about the Vedic
Rudra and Puranic
Shiva (Rudra is now a synonym of Shiva). --
RedtigerxyzTalk15:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Mention something about how several versions of the tale exist in the lead.
Add a sentence or phrase stating something like, "While many versions of the tale exist, Ila is usually described as a daughter or son of Vaivasvata Manu...". That's only a suggestion. I mean to say, have the lead say something about the variety of versions. This prepares the reader for the several versions discussed later on, and further hints that Ila is not always a child of Manu. I hope this is clearer.
Liqudluck✽
talk06:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Should I move the "The tale of Ila's transformations is told in the Puranic literature as well as the Hindu epics Ramayana and Mahabharata." sentence above in the lead. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
The Linga Purana and the Mahabharata narrate the following version of the legend of Ilā. change to According to the Linga Purana and the Mahabharata, Ilā was born as...
Unless there is a purpose I don't see, delete "(literally "trust")". The article is about Ila, so unless his mother's name is important to the legend, it is unnecessary.
Ila's parents did not have any children for a long time --did they choose not to have children, or were they unable to? If they were unable to, clarify this in the article.
Is there a reason to link both
Mitra and
Varuna as well as
Mitra-Varuna? For example, are the dieties only referred to only as Mitra-Varuna in the Bhagavata Purana, Kurma Purana, Harivamsa, Markandeya Purana and Padma Purana?
Delete ", where Skanda - the son of Shiva was born". It is not important to the story of Ila.
The Skanda part is part of the desciption of the forest. It hints that the divine couple had sex there. An explicit story about Śaravana - the sacred grove of goddess Parvati exists, which narrates that the couple were having sex there when sages intruded. So Shiva declared that anyone entering the forest would turn into a woman. Should I include the story in the text or a note? --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
"but the compassionate goddess reduced the curse..." --Add the name of the goddess.
I thought "he trespassed Śaravana - the sacred grove of goddess Parvati, the wife of Shiva". was enough, so Parvati was not named again. Added her name. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
"... allowing Ila to become a man for alternate months, but in neither gender, he would neither the other state." --This is a confusing sentence fragment. Please add verbs.
"and the son of the moon-god Chandra - who turned to asceticism -" Delete, unnecessary. Buddha is already linked and "the god of the planet Mercury" is enough.
"the son of the moon-god Chandra" is important as it explains why Pururavas's race is called the Lunar Dynasty. "who turned to asceticism" - ascetics have given up all pleasures, but Ila's beauty turned an ascetic into a householder again. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
"Budha taken Ilā's attendants into Kimpurushas (hermaphrodite, lit. "what? man")[15][10] and they ran away." --Please clarify this sentence. Why did they run away?
"The Bhagavata Purana et al. texts" --et al. is poor
WP:TONE, and it is not clear what texts you are referring to.
The Birth section has the sentence "The Bhagavata Purana,[3] Kurma Purana, Harivamsa, Markandeya Purana and Padma Purana..." so I did not want to repeat the names. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Last comments
Thank you for responding quickly. I only have a few last comments, so to make access easier I am grouping them together here. Once these comments are addressed, I'll go through a quick copy-edit of the article to fix minor grammar errors and pass the article.
Liqudluck✽
talk19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete ", where Skanda - the son of Shiva was born". It is not important to the story of Ila.
The Skanda part is part of the desciption of the forest. It hints that the divine couple had sex there. An explicit story about Śaravana - the sacred grove of goddess Parvati exists, which narrates that the couple were having sex there when sages intruded. So Shiva declared that anyone entering the forest would turn into a woman. Should I include the story in the text or a note? --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
A note would be alright, although not in the text; it is unneccessary to the tale of Ila himself. Perhaps you can create the article as a stub with this text and link to it here. (Note that creating the stub is not neccessary to this GA.)
Liqudluck✽
talk19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)reply
"and the son of the moon-god Chandra - who turned to asceticism -" Delete, unnecessary. Buddha is already linked and "the god of the planet Mercury" is enough.
"the son of the moon-god Chandra" is important as it explains why Pururavas's race is called the Lunar Dynasty. "who turned to asceticism" - ascetics have given up all pleasures, but Ila's beauty turned an ascetic into a householder again. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Move "the son of the moon-god Chandra" to Descendents and last days; it makes "known as Ailas or the Lunar Dynasty - named after Ilā." clearer.
Liqudluck✽
talk19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Done about ascetic, but the son of the moon-god Chandra needs to be where it is, the scriptures describe him as son of Chandra, not as god of the planet. --
RedtigerxyzTalk05:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Change "Last days and descendents" header to "Later life and descendents" (it isn't only his dying days that are discussed here).
"Later, Ila was changed into a boy by divine grace. When Ila was wandering mistakenly in a sacred grove, Ila was cursed to change his/her gender every month or cursed to become a woman."
Change "Later" to "In versions in which Ila is born male, she is changed to a boy by divine grace soon after her birth".
Change "When Ila was wandering mistakenly in a sacred grove, Ila was cursed to change his/her gender every month or cursed to become a woman." to "After mistakenly entering a sacred grove as an adult, Ila was cursed to change his/her gender every month or cursed to become a woman."
New Is it possible to refer to the Bhagavata Purana et al texts as Puranic literature instead?
No. 1. The whole
Puranas consist of 18 main + 18 sub texts. 2. Harivamsa in the list is not part of the Puranas 3. Vayu Purana and the Brahmanda Purana, which give a variant, are part of the Puranas. --
RedtigerxyzTalk03:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)reply
New "Linga Purana and Mahabharata state that as Sudyumma, he bore three sons named Utkala, Gaya and Vinatashva (or Haritashva or Vinata),[1] who ruled the kingdom as he himself was unable to rule due to his alternating gender."
New*Were the sons' names Utkala, Gaya and Vinatashva; Haritashva and Vinata; Utkala, Haritashva, and Vinata; or something else?
New*Were the sons born before Ila entered the grove and became a female, or after Ila gave bith to Puravas? The lead says after the birth of Puravas, but then the sons never could have become kings because Sudyumma had stopped switching genders by the time they were born.
They were born after Pururavas's birth. "Linga Purana and Mahabharata record the birth of Pururavas, but do not narrate the end of Ila's alternating gender condition" --
RedtigerxyzTalk03:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)reply
New "Ila's father passed his inheritance directly to Pururavas, the son of Ilā - the female, but the three sons of Ila - the man, got no inheritance." Please clarify. What about the three sons of Ila?
I believe you were trying to say that Puravas received an inheritance, but the three sons did not; I have changed it to this in the article, but please change it back if that is not correct.
Liqudluck✽
talk02:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)reply
New "Pleased with his austeriies, the Goddess emerged before Sudyumma in his female form Ilā." Did the Goddess appear as Ilā, or did Sudyumma appear as Ilā?
New "The Bhagavata Purana, Devi-Bhagavata Purana and Linga Purana declare that Ila ascended to heaven with both male as well as female distinguishing characteristics." Do you mean both male and female anatomy? If so, clarify this in the article. It would be helpful to add what the exact characteristics are; remember that Wikipedia is not censored.
New "Idā in the Rigveda, signifies food and refreshment, personified as the goddess of speech." Do you mean that food and refreshment are personified as speech? Or do you mean that Ida is the goddess of speech, food and refreshment?
Pass. This well researched article provides enough context and explanatory information that it is useful to those with little prior knowledge of the subject. My concerns have been addressed and to the best of my knowledge, Ila (Hinduism) meets the GA standards for prose and model of style. And, while
effort is not a reason to support an article, the amount of work and patience that was put into this article and GA review is commendable.
Liqudluck✽
talk05:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hinduism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies articles
This article is supported by WikiProject Mythology. This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Wikipedia. Please participate by editing
the article, and help us
assess and improve articles to
good and
1.0 standards, or visit the
WikiProject page for more details.MythologyWikipedia:WikiProject MythologyTemplate:WikiProject MythologyMythology articles
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Nepal-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the
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Ila (Hinduism) is an article on a Hindu mythological personality, who was the progenitor of most of the Puranic dynasties. I just created it, let me allow to develop.
Joy1963 (
talk)
07:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)reply
Reviewer:Liqudluck✽
talk03:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello! I noticed this on the front page when it was a DYK, so I was poised to notice it on the GA nominations list. It's a very interesting article, and at first glance I don't see any major problems. I'll look more carefully and have my comments up soon.reply
Preliminary glances
For the most part, this article meets the Good Article standard. It is informative, explains
jargon well, and is written in a nice, chronological manner. The prose generally demonstrates good word choice. There are problems with grammar and sentence structure, but those should be easily fixed.
As a woman, Ilā married god Budha, son of Soma and bore him a son called Pururavas, the father of the Ailas ("descendants of Ilā") or the Lunar Dynasty. Delete "or the Lunar Dynasty", and define what the Ailas were.
In the lead, you state Ila is praised as Idā, the goddess of speech, and in Vedic literature you state Ilā is also known as Idā and is identified with Rigvedic goddess of the same name.
First, it appears Ila should be Ilā in Ila is praised as Idā. Second, are Ilā and Idā the same character, or are they separate?
Idā is a synonym of Ila in later Hindu
Puranic literature. The Vedic Idā is like a predecessor of the Puranic Ilā. A similar analogy is about the Vedic
Rudra and Puranic
Shiva (Rudra is now a synonym of Shiva). --
RedtigerxyzTalk15:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Mention something about how several versions of the tale exist in the lead.
Add a sentence or phrase stating something like, "While many versions of the tale exist, Ila is usually described as a daughter or son of Vaivasvata Manu...". That's only a suggestion. I mean to say, have the lead say something about the variety of versions. This prepares the reader for the several versions discussed later on, and further hints that Ila is not always a child of Manu. I hope this is clearer.
Liqudluck✽
talk06:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Should I move the "The tale of Ila's transformations is told in the Puranic literature as well as the Hindu epics Ramayana and Mahabharata." sentence above in the lead. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:31, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
The Linga Purana and the Mahabharata narrate the following version of the legend of Ilā. change to According to the Linga Purana and the Mahabharata, Ilā was born as...
Unless there is a purpose I don't see, delete "(literally "trust")". The article is about Ila, so unless his mother's name is important to the legend, it is unnecessary.
Ila's parents did not have any children for a long time --did they choose not to have children, or were they unable to? If they were unable to, clarify this in the article.
Is there a reason to link both
Mitra and
Varuna as well as
Mitra-Varuna? For example, are the dieties only referred to only as Mitra-Varuna in the Bhagavata Purana, Kurma Purana, Harivamsa, Markandeya Purana and Padma Purana?
Delete ", where Skanda - the son of Shiva was born". It is not important to the story of Ila.
The Skanda part is part of the desciption of the forest. It hints that the divine couple had sex there. An explicit story about Śaravana - the sacred grove of goddess Parvati exists, which narrates that the couple were having sex there when sages intruded. So Shiva declared that anyone entering the forest would turn into a woman. Should I include the story in the text or a note? --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
"but the compassionate goddess reduced the curse..." --Add the name of the goddess.
I thought "he trespassed Śaravana - the sacred grove of goddess Parvati, the wife of Shiva". was enough, so Parvati was not named again. Added her name. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
"... allowing Ila to become a man for alternate months, but in neither gender, he would neither the other state." --This is a confusing sentence fragment. Please add verbs.
"and the son of the moon-god Chandra - who turned to asceticism -" Delete, unnecessary. Buddha is already linked and "the god of the planet Mercury" is enough.
"the son of the moon-god Chandra" is important as it explains why Pururavas's race is called the Lunar Dynasty. "who turned to asceticism" - ascetics have given up all pleasures, but Ila's beauty turned an ascetic into a householder again. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
"Budha taken Ilā's attendants into Kimpurushas (hermaphrodite, lit. "what? man")[15][10] and they ran away." --Please clarify this sentence. Why did they run away?
"The Bhagavata Purana et al. texts" --et al. is poor
WP:TONE, and it is not clear what texts you are referring to.
The Birth section has the sentence "The Bhagavata Purana,[3] Kurma Purana, Harivamsa, Markandeya Purana and Padma Purana..." so I did not want to repeat the names. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Last comments
Thank you for responding quickly. I only have a few last comments, so to make access easier I am grouping them together here. Once these comments are addressed, I'll go through a quick copy-edit of the article to fix minor grammar errors and pass the article.
Liqudluck✽
talk19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Delete ", where Skanda - the son of Shiva was born". It is not important to the story of Ila.
The Skanda part is part of the desciption of the forest. It hints that the divine couple had sex there. An explicit story about Śaravana - the sacred grove of goddess Parvati exists, which narrates that the couple were having sex there when sages intruded. So Shiva declared that anyone entering the forest would turn into a woman. Should I include the story in the text or a note? --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
A note would be alright, although not in the text; it is unneccessary to the tale of Ila himself. Perhaps you can create the article as a stub with this text and link to it here. (Note that creating the stub is not neccessary to this GA.)
Liqudluck✽
talk19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)reply
"and the son of the moon-god Chandra - who turned to asceticism -" Delete, unnecessary. Buddha is already linked and "the god of the planet Mercury" is enough.
"the son of the moon-god Chandra" is important as it explains why Pururavas's race is called the Lunar Dynasty. "who turned to asceticism" - ascetics have given up all pleasures, but Ila's beauty turned an ascetic into a householder again. --
RedtigerxyzTalk06:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Move "the son of the moon-god Chandra" to Descendents and last days; it makes "known as Ailas or the Lunar Dynasty - named after Ilā." clearer.
Liqudluck✽
talk19:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Done about ascetic, but the son of the moon-god Chandra needs to be where it is, the scriptures describe him as son of Chandra, not as god of the planet. --
RedtigerxyzTalk05:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)reply
Change "Last days and descendents" header to "Later life and descendents" (it isn't only his dying days that are discussed here).
"Later, Ila was changed into a boy by divine grace. When Ila was wandering mistakenly in a sacred grove, Ila was cursed to change his/her gender every month or cursed to become a woman."
Change "Later" to "In versions in which Ila is born male, she is changed to a boy by divine grace soon after her birth".
Change "When Ila was wandering mistakenly in a sacred grove, Ila was cursed to change his/her gender every month or cursed to become a woman." to "After mistakenly entering a sacred grove as an adult, Ila was cursed to change his/her gender every month or cursed to become a woman."
New Is it possible to refer to the Bhagavata Purana et al texts as Puranic literature instead?
No. 1. The whole
Puranas consist of 18 main + 18 sub texts. 2. Harivamsa in the list is not part of the Puranas 3. Vayu Purana and the Brahmanda Purana, which give a variant, are part of the Puranas. --
RedtigerxyzTalk03:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)reply
New "Linga Purana and Mahabharata state that as Sudyumma, he bore three sons named Utkala, Gaya and Vinatashva (or Haritashva or Vinata),[1] who ruled the kingdom as he himself was unable to rule due to his alternating gender."
New*Were the sons' names Utkala, Gaya and Vinatashva; Haritashva and Vinata; Utkala, Haritashva, and Vinata; or something else?
New*Were the sons born before Ila entered the grove and became a female, or after Ila gave bith to Puravas? The lead says after the birth of Puravas, but then the sons never could have become kings because Sudyumma had stopped switching genders by the time they were born.
They were born after Pururavas's birth. "Linga Purana and Mahabharata record the birth of Pururavas, but do not narrate the end of Ila's alternating gender condition" --
RedtigerxyzTalk03:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)reply
New "Ila's father passed his inheritance directly to Pururavas, the son of Ilā - the female, but the three sons of Ila - the man, got no inheritance." Please clarify. What about the three sons of Ila?
I believe you were trying to say that Puravas received an inheritance, but the three sons did not; I have changed it to this in the article, but please change it back if that is not correct.
Liqudluck✽
talk02:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)reply
New "Pleased with his austeriies, the Goddess emerged before Sudyumma in his female form Ilā." Did the Goddess appear as Ilā, or did Sudyumma appear as Ilā?
New "The Bhagavata Purana, Devi-Bhagavata Purana and Linga Purana declare that Ila ascended to heaven with both male as well as female distinguishing characteristics." Do you mean both male and female anatomy? If so, clarify this in the article. It would be helpful to add what the exact characteristics are; remember that Wikipedia is not censored.
New "Idā in the Rigveda, signifies food and refreshment, personified as the goddess of speech." Do you mean that food and refreshment are personified as speech? Or do you mean that Ida is the goddess of speech, food and refreshment?
Pass. This well researched article provides enough context and explanatory information that it is useful to those with little prior knowledge of the subject. My concerns have been addressed and to the best of my knowledge, Ila (Hinduism) meets the GA standards for prose and model of style. And, while
effort is not a reason to support an article, the amount of work and patience that was put into this article and GA review is commendable.
Liqudluck✽
talk05:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)reply