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Jmabel | Talk 20:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
"There are two widespread customs observed on this Sabbath: The rabbi delivers a major discourse, second in importance only to the one addressing his congregation during the High Holiday sermon, and the first-half of the haggadah (Passover liturgy) is recited in the afternoon, almost like a practice session before the seder, reliving of the Exodus re-created every year during Passover. [2].
Note the following in the deletion policy:
Articles and text which are capable of meeting these should usually be remedied by editing, but content which fails inclusion criteria for Wikipedia, is incapable of verification with reputable sources, or is in breach of copyright policy, is usually deleted.
I do not believe this article meets the criteria for deletion, maybe editing, but not deletion. Jamie Guinn 21:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to object in calling him a Christian, as I do not believe he viewed himself as such, but as a Jew who also believed in Jesus. If I must I will find documentation proving such. Jamie Guinn 21:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This is clearly his name from the earliest sources; Isaac seems to be a misnomer due to a reverse initialization of his pen name, I. Lichtenstein. Thoughts? -- Kendrick7 talk 03:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
--
Kendrick7
talk
07:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and moved the article to the correct name. -- Kendrick7 talk 20:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
-- Kendrick7 talk 02:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Some time ago the present cheif rabbi of London referred to the fact that three reform rabbis had converted to Christianity. He prefered not to give the exact number, because he probably had reason to fear the exact memory of those who remembered a previous statement of his that he could fill a book with the names of the disciples of Isaac M. Wise who has become converts to Christianity. The force of the argument was now to be a different one. It never had happened in Israel before — so his "Very Reverence" said — that a rabbi had become a convert to Christianity. I happen to be in possession of a pamplet, issued by some missionary society, containing the biography of one Ignatz Lichtenstein, who was a rabbi in Tapio Szele, Hungary, and had written pamplets advocating conversion to Christianity while still officiating as a rabbi. The statement was declared by somebody who had reason to hide himself behind the cover of anonymity, an invention. My pamplet, a very insignificant production, rehashing the usual missionary cant, becomes important in addition to my quotations from various Jewish papers, representing all shades of religious views. In the course of my investigation I came across the fact that this Ignatz Lichtenstein was confounded with a Jehiel Lichtenstein, a former "Wunderrabbi" of Besarabia, who was in the service of the missionary institute of Leipsic, where he died in 1912. We already had two rabbis to refute a statement made by a man upon whose office the world has a right to look as an authority. While it is really no significance whether a Jew trained in Orthox environment and possessing rabbinical knowledge does officiate as a rabbi or not, it certainly added force to my arguments that a rabbi, Lewin Fraenkel, a nephew fo Chief Rabbi Solomon Herschel of London, having been previously rabbi in Dubienka, and Land-rabbiner of Silesia, became a convert to Roman Catholicism. The man was never of any consequence, but his case becomes an irrefutable argument against the malicious statement that liberal Judaism means a step towards apostacy.
This section needs to be backed up by a WP:RS, not just couple of websites.
Near his death he said:
Dear Jewish brethren, I have been young, and now am old. I have attained the age of 80 years, which the Psalmist speaks of as the utmost period of human life on earth. When others of my age are reaping with joy the fruit of their labours, I am alone, almost forsaken, because I have lifted up my voice in warning, '0 Israel, turn to the Lord thy God, for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take these words and turn thee to the Lord thy God.' 'Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from the way.'
"I, an honoured Rabbi for the space of 40 years, am now, in my old age, treated by my friends as one possessed by an evil spirit, and by my enemies as an outcast. I am become a butt of mockers who point the finger at me. But while I live I win stand on my watchtower, though I may stand there all alone. I will listen to the words of God, and look for the time when He will return to Zion in mercy, and Israel shall fill the world with his joyous cry, 'Hosanna to the Son of David. Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest" [1]
During an address at a conference on Jewish missions in 1895:
Almighty Heavenly Father, Eheyeh asher Eheyeh, Sovereign Ruler of past, present and future; we bless You for our past, and thank You, that in Your inscrutable wisdom, You have chosen us out of all peoples of the earth, to give us knowledge of the truth, and to make us witnesses of Your Covenant of everlasting life. Our present is dark, gloomy and desolate; but we trust Your word, O Father, that to all eternity You will not forsake Your people Israel, and we hasten forward full of hope to a glorious future, for You have sent Your heralds in the Name of Your beloved Son, Yeshua the Messiah, to comfort the mourning Daughter of Zion.
Turn us again to Yourself, O Eternal, renew our days as in the former years.
Amen. [2]
Notes from the deletion review, for future reference.
Works by Ignatz cataloged at Harvard:
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help){{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link){{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link){{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)User:Marcika's translation from the Hungarian:
-- Kendrick7 talk 19:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The list of Ignatz Lichtenstein's work, comes from an introduction to an Anthology to his work as the citation indicates. A similar list, from the same author, appears here: http://messianicart.com/davar/articles/isaaclichtenstein.htm. Further, I'm posting what works I am able to get my hands on to Wikimedia Commons. I've already posted two of his works:
Neither of the two works have been translated into English.
With respect to Jehiel Zevi Lichtenstein, it is correct that he and Ignatz where frequently confused. However, Ignatz works where all in German, though many of them where translated by the wife of David Baron. Jechel, by contrast only wrote his works in Hebrew. In fact, I have Jechil's commentary on the New Testement if anyone is interested. — Wikijeff 01:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I've read the discussion above; but I am not so sure about this. I am quite certain that Ignatz (in its various spellings) was considered the standard equivalent of Isaac/Yitzchak (compare Mordechai > Mark/Max, Chaim > Joachim, etc.), and the JewishGen given names database seems to confirm this (search "Ign*").
הסרפד ( Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 03:01, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I've noticed that a major concern about the article's veracity in all the previous discussions was the reliability of the sources. I've now found a contemporary Orthodox source, which is theoretically free from the allegations of bias in this case, and adds balance to the case:
{{
cite book}}
: More than one of |at=
and |page=
specified (
help); templatestyles stripmarker in |title=
at position 3 (
help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link) (Passing mention in his brother's entry.)(Credit: ivelt.com)
Perhaps I will eventually add the information to the article.
הסרפד ( Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 03:59, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I've fixed the date of death per the source I added: a contemporary Jewish missionary magazine published in January 1909 which mentions Lichtenstein as having died on Friday, the 16th of October—obviously 1908. In addition, October 26, 1908, was a Friday, while October 16, 1909, was a Saturday. I left the same reasoning in a comment there to prevent hasty reversion.
Upon searching the web, I notice that most Messianic sites indeed write that he died in 1908, though many have 1909 (perhaps after Wikipedia?).
הסרפד ( Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 04:43, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article was nominated for
deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
|
Jmabel | Talk 20:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
"There are two widespread customs observed on this Sabbath: The rabbi delivers a major discourse, second in importance only to the one addressing his congregation during the High Holiday sermon, and the first-half of the haggadah (Passover liturgy) is recited in the afternoon, almost like a practice session before the seder, reliving of the Exodus re-created every year during Passover. [2].
Note the following in the deletion policy:
Articles and text which are capable of meeting these should usually be remedied by editing, but content which fails inclusion criteria for Wikipedia, is incapable of verification with reputable sources, or is in breach of copyright policy, is usually deleted.
I do not believe this article meets the criteria for deletion, maybe editing, but not deletion. Jamie Guinn 21:29, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like to object in calling him a Christian, as I do not believe he viewed himself as such, but as a Jew who also believed in Jesus. If I must I will find documentation proving such. Jamie Guinn 21:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
This is clearly his name from the earliest sources; Isaac seems to be a misnomer due to a reverse initialization of his pen name, I. Lichtenstein. Thoughts? -- Kendrick7 talk 03:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
--
Kendrick7
talk
07:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and moved the article to the correct name. -- Kendrick7 talk 20:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
-- Kendrick7 talk 02:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)Some time ago the present cheif rabbi of London referred to the fact that three reform rabbis had converted to Christianity. He prefered not to give the exact number, because he probably had reason to fear the exact memory of those who remembered a previous statement of his that he could fill a book with the names of the disciples of Isaac M. Wise who has become converts to Christianity. The force of the argument was now to be a different one. It never had happened in Israel before — so his "Very Reverence" said — that a rabbi had become a convert to Christianity. I happen to be in possession of a pamplet, issued by some missionary society, containing the biography of one Ignatz Lichtenstein, who was a rabbi in Tapio Szele, Hungary, and had written pamplets advocating conversion to Christianity while still officiating as a rabbi. The statement was declared by somebody who had reason to hide himself behind the cover of anonymity, an invention. My pamplet, a very insignificant production, rehashing the usual missionary cant, becomes important in addition to my quotations from various Jewish papers, representing all shades of religious views. In the course of my investigation I came across the fact that this Ignatz Lichtenstein was confounded with a Jehiel Lichtenstein, a former "Wunderrabbi" of Besarabia, who was in the service of the missionary institute of Leipsic, where he died in 1912. We already had two rabbis to refute a statement made by a man upon whose office the world has a right to look as an authority. While it is really no significance whether a Jew trained in Orthox environment and possessing rabbinical knowledge does officiate as a rabbi or not, it certainly added force to my arguments that a rabbi, Lewin Fraenkel, a nephew fo Chief Rabbi Solomon Herschel of London, having been previously rabbi in Dubienka, and Land-rabbiner of Silesia, became a convert to Roman Catholicism. The man was never of any consequence, but his case becomes an irrefutable argument against the malicious statement that liberal Judaism means a step towards apostacy.
This section needs to be backed up by a WP:RS, not just couple of websites.
Near his death he said:
Dear Jewish brethren, I have been young, and now am old. I have attained the age of 80 years, which the Psalmist speaks of as the utmost period of human life on earth. When others of my age are reaping with joy the fruit of their labours, I am alone, almost forsaken, because I have lifted up my voice in warning, '0 Israel, turn to the Lord thy God, for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take these words and turn thee to the Lord thy God.' 'Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from the way.'
"I, an honoured Rabbi for the space of 40 years, am now, in my old age, treated by my friends as one possessed by an evil spirit, and by my enemies as an outcast. I am become a butt of mockers who point the finger at me. But while I live I win stand on my watchtower, though I may stand there all alone. I will listen to the words of God, and look for the time when He will return to Zion in mercy, and Israel shall fill the world with his joyous cry, 'Hosanna to the Son of David. Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest" [1]
During an address at a conference on Jewish missions in 1895:
Almighty Heavenly Father, Eheyeh asher Eheyeh, Sovereign Ruler of past, present and future; we bless You for our past, and thank You, that in Your inscrutable wisdom, You have chosen us out of all peoples of the earth, to give us knowledge of the truth, and to make us witnesses of Your Covenant of everlasting life. Our present is dark, gloomy and desolate; but we trust Your word, O Father, that to all eternity You will not forsake Your people Israel, and we hasten forward full of hope to a glorious future, for You have sent Your heralds in the Name of Your beloved Son, Yeshua the Messiah, to comfort the mourning Daughter of Zion.
Turn us again to Yourself, O Eternal, renew our days as in the former years.
Amen. [2]
Notes from the deletion review, for future reference.
Works by Ignatz cataloged at Harvard:
{{
cite book}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help){{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link){{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link){{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link)User:Marcika's translation from the Hungarian:
-- Kendrick7 talk 19:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The list of Ignatz Lichtenstein's work, comes from an introduction to an Anthology to his work as the citation indicates. A similar list, from the same author, appears here: http://messianicart.com/davar/articles/isaaclichtenstein.htm. Further, I'm posting what works I am able to get my hands on to Wikimedia Commons. I've already posted two of his works:
Neither of the two works have been translated into English.
With respect to Jehiel Zevi Lichtenstein, it is correct that he and Ignatz where frequently confused. However, Ignatz works where all in German, though many of them where translated by the wife of David Baron. Jechel, by contrast only wrote his works in Hebrew. In fact, I have Jechil's commentary on the New Testement if anyone is interested. — Wikijeff 01:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I've read the discussion above; but I am not so sure about this. I am quite certain that Ignatz (in its various spellings) was considered the standard equivalent of Isaac/Yitzchak (compare Mordechai > Mark/Max, Chaim > Joachim, etc.), and the JewishGen given names database seems to confirm this (search "Ign*").
הסרפד ( Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 03:01, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I've noticed that a major concern about the article's veracity in all the previous discussions was the reliability of the sources. I've now found a contemporary Orthodox source, which is theoretically free from the allegations of bias in this case, and adds balance to the case:
{{
cite book}}
: More than one of |at=
and |page=
specified (
help); templatestyles stripmarker in |title=
at position 3 (
help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (
link) (Passing mention in his brother's entry.)(Credit: ivelt.com)
Perhaps I will eventually add the information to the article.
הסרפד ( Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 03:59, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
I've fixed the date of death per the source I added: a contemporary Jewish missionary magazine published in January 1909 which mentions Lichtenstein as having died on Friday, the 16th of October—obviously 1908. In addition, October 26, 1908, was a Friday, while October 16, 1909, was a Saturday. I left the same reasoning in a comment there to prevent hasty reversion.
Upon searching the web, I notice that most Messianic sites indeed write that he died in 1908, though many have 1909 (perhaps after Wikipedia?).
הסרפד ( Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 04:43, 24 December 2012 (UTC)