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Very well done, now in the FAC list. Thank you.
A. Shetsen 03:20, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Tried to nominate for a featured article yesterday, but got no support after 24 hours. Too bad. Still think this is one fine job... A. Shetsen 06:39, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The title of this article is very offending to the greatest part of the Christian believers. Therefore I've put the lable POV on the article. To be honest, I think the article should be completely removed. Liudger 21:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
To the person above (Liudiger?): 1.) Please read the article obectively and the dictionary to understand the discussion. 2.) Often the Commandment regarding 'idols' is regarded as 'false idols' of other deities. Should it be insisted that all idols, depicting any religious figure (Christian or not) are against God's wishes, then every nativity scene and any picture of Jesus is violating this interpretation of God's law. 3.) I believe that the 'greatest part of the Christian believers' is Catholic, which is a sect largely tolerant of using material representations of God in their worship.
To the author of this entry: his article is well-written, concise and highly informational. Keep up the good work and don't let fundamentalism get in the way of objective research. EXCELLENT WORK!!!
Ever? And if so it should be edited into Idolatry in Christianity because of that (and I'm anyway a member too, but I still whata know the answer from you guys because I seem to never got an clear answer-especially from my father.) And do Latter-day Saints have similer views like the Protestants have on idolatry also (note that I found some simileries between the Mormon church and Protestant belief and/or pratices as I read on Wikipedia and within my church.) So I also like a Latter-day Saint member to also answer this question of mind for me, but I also allowing a non-member as well to answer this for me as well.Thanks. —This unsigned comment was added by 206.180.135.43 ( talk • contribs) .
I've restored the {{NPOV}} tag. The problem doesn't lie so much with the article's title as with the discussion. Based upon the opening sentence's definition: "Idolatry, in Christian theology, is 'the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God' rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself." Based on this definition, the discussion in the article points to iconodules as practitioners of idolatry. This perspective is based on ignorance and is not NPOV. It shows complete ignorace of the distinction made in historical Christianity between the veneration of images and the adoration of God. It shows ignorance even of the definition of the English word "worship" (which means to "hold worthy" and is not limited to divine woship, but means the honor given to kings, judges, etc.). Divine worship is referred to as "adoration", and is limited to God alone. While the article does give a very brief and incomplete description of the theological arguments in favour of the veneration of icons, it just as quickly dismisses them. The article, while it may be "well written" from an aesthetic point of view, is not written from a neutral point of view. It favors Protestant theology over Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox theology, which together constitute the majority of Christians (see Major religious groups). MishaPan 17:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The opening definition in the article is theologically defective: "Idolatry, in Christian theology, is 'the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God' rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself." Actually, in Christian Theology, Idolatry is the worship of a created object with the same worship ( latria) one would give to the true God Himself. MishaPan 17:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
MishaPan is absolutely right and the NPOV tag is completely justified. Jonathan A Jones 18:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
This article has a dangerous veer towards pro-catholicism 'however veneration of a saint is NOT idol worship' from a scholarly stand point it IS idol worship. as it says in Leviticus 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it.' 'sacred stone' refers to any material bound object. just walk into any catholic cathedral/monastery and you will see STONE or GOLD images. In a catholic website this would be fine, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a religious work. in wikipedias neutrality article 'All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.' is the summary provided.
This article would benefit from a section on how the prohibition of idolatry has affected the Christian view of the arts and what is appropriate subject matter for the arts. Some of the material under the Protestant view could be moved to a new heading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dadaw ( talk • contribs) 05:05, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
There is no idolatry in Catholicism. We have 2000 years of Popes and Magisteriums, and just plain out written history proving that idols in the Catholic Church are lies. Why should we go along with a self-made historian who claims he knows more than 2000 years of Catholic history. I will prove, using references, that there is no idolatry in the Catholic Church. There is a lot of prejudices in this article and, for the most part, it comes from those who hate the Catholic Church. Anathasius ( talk) 05:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
It is very important for this topic, since if it is genuine then all protestants are wrong. An imagery created by Father God himself, faithfully depicting Son Jesus Christ, would justify human-made icons and other paintings of religious topic. Definitely deserves a mention in the article. 91.83.10.88 ( talk) 20:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 01:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Idolatry and Christianity → Idolatry in Christianity – User:Jarble 20:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
After 7 days, there was no oppose vote, and all votes supported, hence conclusion was move, obviously. History2007 ( talk) 14:10, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Idolatry and Christianity → Religious images in Christian theology – The current name is highly POV. This defines the subject more closely, and distinguishes it from Aniconism in Christianity, which covers the history and art history. Johnbod ( talk) 22:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Isn't the topic of this article, the worship or practices similar to worhsip of religious icons (and not images alone)? The aniconism article could not be a subarticle of this one if it only covered images and imagery. -- 70.24.186.245 ( talk) 06:19, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
If this article covered idolatry, I think it would cover the New Testament's extensive coverage of idolatry, including the idolatry warned against by Paul. That would include greed, lust, and a whole host of detestable things which idolaters do. And so I would agree that the article is about icons, images, and veneration. I would definitely call this idolatry in the historical sense because this is what the Reformers called it when they tore down the "idols" of Catholicism.
Really the debate is at its crux one of Christian liturgy and the formalities present among those who express or practice Christianity. It is the Christian equivalent of the debate in computer science over structured and unstructured languages. The article, and increasingly this talk page, is about the form. The Protestants prefer much less form and formalities than do the Orthodox, for example.
So in summary I think there is an article possible on idolatry and Christianity, but it has not been written, and the one that exists now is about Imagery in Christianity. I will leave on the table the fact that someone who meets the New Testament "greed" or "lust" criteria for idolatry could get there using imagery, but imagery is clearly not the focus of Paul's warnings. I like to saw logs! ( talk) 08:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Very well done, now in the FAC list. Thank you.
A. Shetsen 03:20, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Tried to nominate for a featured article yesterday, but got no support after 24 hours. Too bad. Still think this is one fine job... A. Shetsen 06:39, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The title of this article is very offending to the greatest part of the Christian believers. Therefore I've put the lable POV on the article. To be honest, I think the article should be completely removed. Liudger 21:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
To the person above (Liudiger?): 1.) Please read the article obectively and the dictionary to understand the discussion. 2.) Often the Commandment regarding 'idols' is regarded as 'false idols' of other deities. Should it be insisted that all idols, depicting any religious figure (Christian or not) are against God's wishes, then every nativity scene and any picture of Jesus is violating this interpretation of God's law. 3.) I believe that the 'greatest part of the Christian believers' is Catholic, which is a sect largely tolerant of using material representations of God in their worship.
To the author of this entry: his article is well-written, concise and highly informational. Keep up the good work and don't let fundamentalism get in the way of objective research. EXCELLENT WORK!!!
Ever? And if so it should be edited into Idolatry in Christianity because of that (and I'm anyway a member too, but I still whata know the answer from you guys because I seem to never got an clear answer-especially from my father.) And do Latter-day Saints have similer views like the Protestants have on idolatry also (note that I found some simileries between the Mormon church and Protestant belief and/or pratices as I read on Wikipedia and within my church.) So I also like a Latter-day Saint member to also answer this question of mind for me, but I also allowing a non-member as well to answer this for me as well.Thanks. —This unsigned comment was added by 206.180.135.43 ( talk • contribs) .
I've restored the {{NPOV}} tag. The problem doesn't lie so much with the article's title as with the discussion. Based upon the opening sentence's definition: "Idolatry, in Christian theology, is 'the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God' rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself." Based on this definition, the discussion in the article points to iconodules as practitioners of idolatry. This perspective is based on ignorance and is not NPOV. It shows complete ignorace of the distinction made in historical Christianity between the veneration of images and the adoration of God. It shows ignorance even of the definition of the English word "worship" (which means to "hold worthy" and is not limited to divine woship, but means the honor given to kings, judges, etc.). Divine worship is referred to as "adoration", and is limited to God alone. While the article does give a very brief and incomplete description of the theological arguments in favour of the veneration of icons, it just as quickly dismisses them. The article, while it may be "well written" from an aesthetic point of view, is not written from a neutral point of view. It favors Protestant theology over Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox theology, which together constitute the majority of Christians (see Major religious groups). MishaPan 17:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The opening definition in the article is theologically defective: "Idolatry, in Christian theology, is 'the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God' rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself." Actually, in Christian Theology, Idolatry is the worship of a created object with the same worship ( latria) one would give to the true God Himself. MishaPan 17:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
MishaPan is absolutely right and the NPOV tag is completely justified. Jonathan A Jones 18:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
This article has a dangerous veer towards pro-catholicism 'however veneration of a saint is NOT idol worship' from a scholarly stand point it IS idol worship. as it says in Leviticus 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it.' 'sacred stone' refers to any material bound object. just walk into any catholic cathedral/monastery and you will see STONE or GOLD images. In a catholic website this would be fine, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a religious work. in wikipedias neutrality article 'All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.' is the summary provided.
This article would benefit from a section on how the prohibition of idolatry has affected the Christian view of the arts and what is appropriate subject matter for the arts. Some of the material under the Protestant view could be moved to a new heading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dadaw ( talk • contribs) 05:05, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
There is no idolatry in Catholicism. We have 2000 years of Popes and Magisteriums, and just plain out written history proving that idols in the Catholic Church are lies. Why should we go along with a self-made historian who claims he knows more than 2000 years of Catholic history. I will prove, using references, that there is no idolatry in the Catholic Church. There is a lot of prejudices in this article and, for the most part, it comes from those who hate the Catholic Church. Anathasius ( talk) 05:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
It is very important for this topic, since if it is genuine then all protestants are wrong. An imagery created by Father God himself, faithfully depicting Son Jesus Christ, would justify human-made icons and other paintings of religious topic. Definitely deserves a mention in the article. 91.83.10.88 ( talk) 20:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 01:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Idolatry and Christianity → Idolatry in Christianity – User:Jarble 20:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
After 7 days, there was no oppose vote, and all votes supported, hence conclusion was move, obviously. History2007 ( talk) 14:10, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
Idolatry and Christianity → Religious images in Christian theology – The current name is highly POV. This defines the subject more closely, and distinguishes it from Aniconism in Christianity, which covers the history and art history. Johnbod ( talk) 22:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Isn't the topic of this article, the worship or practices similar to worhsip of religious icons (and not images alone)? The aniconism article could not be a subarticle of this one if it only covered images and imagery. -- 70.24.186.245 ( talk) 06:19, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
If this article covered idolatry, I think it would cover the New Testament's extensive coverage of idolatry, including the idolatry warned against by Paul. That would include greed, lust, and a whole host of detestable things which idolaters do. And so I would agree that the article is about icons, images, and veneration. I would definitely call this idolatry in the historical sense because this is what the Reformers called it when they tore down the "idols" of Catholicism.
Really the debate is at its crux one of Christian liturgy and the formalities present among those who express or practice Christianity. It is the Christian equivalent of the debate in computer science over structured and unstructured languages. The article, and increasingly this talk page, is about the form. The Protestants prefer much less form and formalities than do the Orthodox, for example.
So in summary I think there is an article possible on idolatry and Christianity, but it has not been written, and the one that exists now is about Imagery in Christianity. I will leave on the table the fact that someone who meets the New Testament "greed" or "lust" criteria for idolatry could get there using imagery, but imagery is clearly not the focus of Paul's warnings. I like to saw logs! ( talk) 08:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)