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I removed two sections because I have a variety of problems with them. If we can addres them satisfactoraly, perhaps these sections can be reincorporated into the article -- but I think at the least they need some serious work.
I believe the above passage is vague, misleading and lacks NPOV. First, I am not sure if it represents [sychoanalysis clearly. Who, exactly. has cmpared idolatry to unhealthy atachments? I suspect Freud wrote something about idolatry in Moses and Monotheism but Freud did not really use the language of "attachment" theory. If there is a serious psychoanaltic analysis of idolatry, it belongs here -- but the above passage needs more detail, at least a citation.
I know that we normally do not need citations for every thing in an article. One reason I think we need a citation here is that this is a subsection that is about a particular group's view of idolatry (psychoanalysts'); in other words, the section reveals something not only about idolatry, but about psychology. In order to educate people (the task of an encyclpoedia) about psychology, this paragraph needs development: who made the argument, and why, and a citation so readers who want to learn more about this approach can.
But there is another reason I think citations are important. I think this psychoanalytic interpretation of idolatry -- if it really exists -- is ethnocentric. Psychoanalysis has been criticized by many. I personally think there is great value to psychoanalysis, and I certainly welcome its inclusion when appropriate in articles. But many critics question the scientific validity of psychoanalysis. When Freud wrote his case-studies, he derived arguments from a close examination of a person. That is a far cry from passing judgements on whole societies or civilizations. And in the 19th century one of the most common forms of Eurocentrism was the claim that we white guys are better at thinking abstractly than those wogs. And the passage above seems to echo that ethnocentric argument. The fact that psychoanalysis itself may lack NPOV or be ethnocentric is no surprise to critics of psychoanalysis -- and this is not enough eason to delete the passage, if a psychoanalyst really made the argument. But given that it is an example of Eurocentrism in psychonalysis, I think it is especially important to include the name(s) of the theorist, and some minimal context (when and where they practices).
Slr removed the following:
These beliefs may well be at odds with monotheism (except you can find plentifal examples of items 3 (the ark) and 4 (the holy of holies) in every monotheistic religion. Perhaps items 3 and 4 should be deleted or at least modified. Slrubenstein
But my main argument is that these, especially items 1 and 2, don't seem to be idolatry. I am not convinced that idolatry = polytheism. Prohibition of polytheism = don't have other gods before Me. Prohibition of idolatry = don't make graven images. Even if you believe in one God, you can still make an idol of Him, and that would be wrong. In short, I suspect that the above section belongs in an article on Monotheism versus Polytheism but are just not really germaine to this article. In short, the first two examples are true about polytheism, which is a separate issue than idolatry; the second two items can exist within monotheistic religions and not be considered idolatrous. Slrubenstein
Now, this part is factually wrong:
Polytheistic beliefs which the Abrahamic religions generally consider idolatrous include:
These beliefs are at variance with the idea of monotheism, which holds that all power comes from God alone, and not from any other supernatural gods or agents. In such systems "God" at best would be the stronger of many other gods; this God then could not have omnipotenc, God would not have an independent and sovereign will.
RK, why are you reverting my work without even bothering to discuss it? Susan Mason
I have a point to make concerning the above comments by RK and IHCOYC -- a point that I think is fairly reasonable and that I hope will guide both of you as you make more changes to the article. The point: there is a difference between change, which is an objective observable phenomenon, and progress, which is a a particular way of talking about change. It is true that Hebrew religion (and later, Judaism) has changed. Some people do beleive that these changes are progressive, meaning they represent incremental improvements in a generally positive direction. As RK says, there are Jews who hold a theory of "progressive revelation." The views of those Jews (or others) ought to be represented in this article. But I believe it is an ethnocentric view in that it implies that the revelation to people 2, 3, or 4,000 years ago was less complete, or less-fully realized. IHCOYC even refers to earlier monotheists as "primitive." If by "primitive" we just mean "first" or "prior" that is undeniable, but if by "primitive" we mean in some sense, inferior (IHCOYC uses the word weaker) -- well, that is ethhnocentric. I repeat: this view is a legitimate view among monothesists and should be represented in the article. But the other view should be represented as well. Slrubenstein
I think RK made this point, that the Bible itself provides multiple views towards sacred places. It is possible (as Wellhausen argued) that the people who edited the Torah and authorized the canon were of the belief that one place is holier than all others; but this does not mean that among ancient Hebrews, especially before the period of redaction and canonization, there weren't Hebrews -- still monotheists -- who held other views (such as the holiness of bamot). My point is, just as Judaism and Hebrew religion has changed, one can say that monotheism has changed, and any article that represents "monotheism" should:
When, I don't have a problem with the above entering into any article, as long as it is explicit that it is (in your words above) a Christian (or NT) perspective -- and not a perspective of all monotheists, and not an "objective" perspective, that's all. Slrubenstein
As I understand it, the question of whether the Ark had mana would depend on whether one thinks its power operated independently of God, or if God Himself caused the deaths and other misfortunes when it was mistreated or stolen. Maybe that's irrelevant; I may be misunderstanding what is meant by mana.
Unfortunately, I don't think the distinction is between sacred object and object of worship is universally clear even to the current editors of this article. I agree, there is a fundamental distinction between veneration and worship that needs to be spelled out, perhaps with the caveat that some (who exactly?) do not recognize any such distinction. Do we have an article yet on what religions mean when they say something, someone or some place is holy? This seems to be a related concept. Wesley
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I removed two sections because I have a variety of problems with them. If we can addres them satisfactoraly, perhaps these sections can be reincorporated into the article -- but I think at the least they need some serious work.
I believe the above passage is vague, misleading and lacks NPOV. First, I am not sure if it represents [sychoanalysis clearly. Who, exactly. has cmpared idolatry to unhealthy atachments? I suspect Freud wrote something about idolatry in Moses and Monotheism but Freud did not really use the language of "attachment" theory. If there is a serious psychoanaltic analysis of idolatry, it belongs here -- but the above passage needs more detail, at least a citation.
I know that we normally do not need citations for every thing in an article. One reason I think we need a citation here is that this is a subsection that is about a particular group's view of idolatry (psychoanalysts'); in other words, the section reveals something not only about idolatry, but about psychology. In order to educate people (the task of an encyclpoedia) about psychology, this paragraph needs development: who made the argument, and why, and a citation so readers who want to learn more about this approach can.
But there is another reason I think citations are important. I think this psychoanalytic interpretation of idolatry -- if it really exists -- is ethnocentric. Psychoanalysis has been criticized by many. I personally think there is great value to psychoanalysis, and I certainly welcome its inclusion when appropriate in articles. But many critics question the scientific validity of psychoanalysis. When Freud wrote his case-studies, he derived arguments from a close examination of a person. That is a far cry from passing judgements on whole societies or civilizations. And in the 19th century one of the most common forms of Eurocentrism was the claim that we white guys are better at thinking abstractly than those wogs. And the passage above seems to echo that ethnocentric argument. The fact that psychoanalysis itself may lack NPOV or be ethnocentric is no surprise to critics of psychoanalysis -- and this is not enough eason to delete the passage, if a psychoanalyst really made the argument. But given that it is an example of Eurocentrism in psychonalysis, I think it is especially important to include the name(s) of the theorist, and some minimal context (when and where they practices).
Slr removed the following:
These beliefs may well be at odds with monotheism (except you can find plentifal examples of items 3 (the ark) and 4 (the holy of holies) in every monotheistic religion. Perhaps items 3 and 4 should be deleted or at least modified. Slrubenstein
But my main argument is that these, especially items 1 and 2, don't seem to be idolatry. I am not convinced that idolatry = polytheism. Prohibition of polytheism = don't have other gods before Me. Prohibition of idolatry = don't make graven images. Even if you believe in one God, you can still make an idol of Him, and that would be wrong. In short, I suspect that the above section belongs in an article on Monotheism versus Polytheism but are just not really germaine to this article. In short, the first two examples are true about polytheism, which is a separate issue than idolatry; the second two items can exist within monotheistic religions and not be considered idolatrous. Slrubenstein
Now, this part is factually wrong:
Polytheistic beliefs which the Abrahamic religions generally consider idolatrous include:
These beliefs are at variance with the idea of monotheism, which holds that all power comes from God alone, and not from any other supernatural gods or agents. In such systems "God" at best would be the stronger of many other gods; this God then could not have omnipotenc, God would not have an independent and sovereign will.
RK, why are you reverting my work without even bothering to discuss it? Susan Mason
I have a point to make concerning the above comments by RK and IHCOYC -- a point that I think is fairly reasonable and that I hope will guide both of you as you make more changes to the article. The point: there is a difference between change, which is an objective observable phenomenon, and progress, which is a a particular way of talking about change. It is true that Hebrew religion (and later, Judaism) has changed. Some people do beleive that these changes are progressive, meaning they represent incremental improvements in a generally positive direction. As RK says, there are Jews who hold a theory of "progressive revelation." The views of those Jews (or others) ought to be represented in this article. But I believe it is an ethnocentric view in that it implies that the revelation to people 2, 3, or 4,000 years ago was less complete, or less-fully realized. IHCOYC even refers to earlier monotheists as "primitive." If by "primitive" we just mean "first" or "prior" that is undeniable, but if by "primitive" we mean in some sense, inferior (IHCOYC uses the word weaker) -- well, that is ethhnocentric. I repeat: this view is a legitimate view among monothesists and should be represented in the article. But the other view should be represented as well. Slrubenstein
I think RK made this point, that the Bible itself provides multiple views towards sacred places. It is possible (as Wellhausen argued) that the people who edited the Torah and authorized the canon were of the belief that one place is holier than all others; but this does not mean that among ancient Hebrews, especially before the period of redaction and canonization, there weren't Hebrews -- still monotheists -- who held other views (such as the holiness of bamot). My point is, just as Judaism and Hebrew religion has changed, one can say that monotheism has changed, and any article that represents "monotheism" should:
When, I don't have a problem with the above entering into any article, as long as it is explicit that it is (in your words above) a Christian (or NT) perspective -- and not a perspective of all monotheists, and not an "objective" perspective, that's all. Slrubenstein
As I understand it, the question of whether the Ark had mana would depend on whether one thinks its power operated independently of God, or if God Himself caused the deaths and other misfortunes when it was mistreated or stolen. Maybe that's irrelevant; I may be misunderstanding what is meant by mana.
Unfortunately, I don't think the distinction is between sacred object and object of worship is universally clear even to the current editors of this article. I agree, there is a fundamental distinction between veneration and worship that needs to be spelled out, perhaps with the caveat that some (who exactly?) do not recognize any such distinction. Do we have an article yet on what religions mean when they say something, someone or some place is holy? This seems to be a related concept. Wesley