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http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Ich_bin_ein_Berliner&oldid=73298058
A common urban legend asserts that Kennedy made an embarrassing grammatical error by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner," referring to himself not as a citizen of Berlin, but as a common pastry:
Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut". The statement was followed by uproarious laughter.
The legend stems from a play on words with
Berliner, the name of a
doughnut variant filled with jam or plum sauce that is thought to have originated in Berlin. This urban legend is largely unknown in Germany, where Kennedy's speech is considered a landmark in the country's postwar history.
The legend can be deconstructed on a number of points:
The origins of the legend are obscure.
One prominent instance of its re-telling was in 1988 when William J. Miller erroneously wrote in an April 30 New York Times article:
What they did not know, but could easily have found out, was that such citizens never refer to themselves as "Berliners." They reserve that term for a favorite confection often munched at breakfast. So, while they understood and appreciated the sentiments behind the President's impassioned declaration, the residents tittered among themselves when he exclaimed, literally, "I am a jelly-filled doughnut."
Although it has no basis in fact, the legend has since been repeated by reputable media, such as the BBC [2], The Guardian [3], a Political Bloopers segment on MSNBC's Countdown with Keith Olbermann [4], and in several books about Germany written by English-speaking authors. Native speakers will not recognize a grammatical error but they might catch the play on words if they are from a region outside of Berlin.
As for the creation of the speech, it had been reviewed by journalist Robert Lochner, who was educated in Germany, and had been practiced several times in front of numerous Germans, including Berlin Mayor Willy Brandt. As the speech was known to be important, the German parts had been chosen carefully and the many video and audio recordings of the event show only enthusiastic applause following the statement. During the speech Kennedy used the phrase twice. He also used the phrase to end his speech. However, Kennedy did pronounce the sentence with a strong Boston accent, reading from his note "ish bin ein Bearleener," which he had written out phonetically.
Perpetuators of the legend cite a parallel with the word " Hamburger." As "Berliner" may refer either to a doughnut or to a person from Berlin, so "Hamburger" may refer to a beef sandwich or to someone from Hamburg. But the parallel is only superficial because these toponyms have different usage. Only in modern times the citizens of Berlin have recognized that other regions call their "Pfannkuchen" by the name of "Berliner". Common souvenirs in Berlin depicting a doughnut covered with the inscription "Ich bin ein Berliner," which are often thought by American tourists to refer to this legend, represent little more than a contemporary play on words.
While it seems to be the consensus that "ich bin ein Berliner" is grammatically correct for "I am a citizen of Berlin", it may be worthwhile to point out that the translation to "I am a jelly-filled doughnut" is not illegitimate. That is to say, if Kennedy had meant to say "I am a jelly-filled doughnut" in German, he could have said "ich bin ein Berliner", correct?
What I'm getting at is that the article implies that the jelly doughnut thing is a complete mistranslation on par with saying it means "I am an automobile transmission", and I think that that tone should be improved upon. — wfaulk 23:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I heard this "urban legend" from a native-German German language teacher in 1977. She said it was an amusing error, but the German people understood and appreciated what JFK meant. I think calling it an "urban-legend" is an unsubstantiated POV. I too feel like a Berliner. -- Ray Eston Smith Jr 18:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I've made a couple of edits as a native-speaker of German, as it is closer to encyclopediatric standards in my opinion, I've cut some irrelevant info. Comments are welcome. I also changed the translation from "I am a citizen of Berlin" to a more direct and correct translation, "I am a Berlinian", though I don't know if it isn't grammatically wrong in English. Everyone's welcome to revert it. "I am a citizen of Berlin" would be "Ich bin ein Bürger Berlins" in German, the interpreter translated the Roman sentence to German as well,"Vor zweitausend Jahren war der stolzeste Satz ‚Ich bin ein Bürger Roms‘. Heute, in der Welt der Freiheit, ist der stolzeste Satz ‚Ich bin ein Berliner‘." INTERNAZI 15:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, for starters, it sounds like someone with a bone to pick wrote this entire article. As far as I've been informed, the line *was* indeed ambiguous, but that the German people automatically understood Kennedy's intent.
Calling it an Urban Legend amounts to throwing it in the same category as Alligators in the Sewers and Ghost Hitchhikers, and is a VERY poor choice of wording. It would sound better as "Common Misconceptions" or something to that effect. Again, the focus of this article seems to tell you that there was NO WAY that it could be ambiguous in any way, when in fact it is.
Blaiseball
23:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
This article definitely does express a personal POV. While there are many references to reputable journals that do claim that Kennedy did say this, the article does not mention any counter-sources at all. This means that this is someones personal view of what Kennedy meant and has no place in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Captainspirou ( talk • contribs) 00:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I am a German. I read about that donut legend, which to my mind is very absurd. Some stated that the use of the german article "ein" would be an indicator that he doesn't mean a person, but the jelly donut. Sorry - completely wrong!
Let's compare the two German sentences:
The strict semantics of both are almost identical, although the connotation/interpretation of both has a slight divergence:
Obviously, the first variant is the better one. It is the one that Kennedy used. If Kennedy hat used the latter, this would surely have been irritating for the audience. Like, as if Kennedy would spontaneously come out with the public revelation that he was not born in the US, but in Germany! What a sensation. MadocDoyu 11:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
MadocDoyu is absolutely right. "Ich bin Berliner" is the informal variant. Thorsten1 is also right with his "I'm a New Yorker"/"I'm a magazine" comparision. I must know that because I am not only a German (which never eat Doughnuts for breakfast, but with their afternoon coffee) but ich bin in fact ein Berliner 84.190.155.103 00:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
In fact, the statement is grammatically correct and cannot be misunderstood in that context. The urban legend is largely unknown in Germany citation needed,...
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Ich_bin_ein_Berliner&oldid=73298058
A common urban legend asserts that Kennedy made an embarrassing grammatical error by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner," referring to himself not as a citizen of Berlin, but as a common pastry:
Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut". The statement was followed by uproarious laughter.
The legend stems from a play on words with
Berliner, the name of a
doughnut variant filled with jam or plum sauce that is thought to have originated in Berlin. This urban legend is largely unknown in Germany, where Kennedy's speech is considered a landmark in the country's postwar history.
The legend can be deconstructed on a number of points:
The origins of the legend are obscure.
One prominent instance of its re-telling was in 1988 when William J. Miller erroneously wrote in an April 30 New York Times article:
What they did not know, but could easily have found out, was that such citizens never refer to themselves as "Berliners." They reserve that term for a favorite confection often munched at breakfast. So, while they understood and appreciated the sentiments behind the President's impassioned declaration, the residents tittered among themselves when he exclaimed, literally, "I am a jelly-filled doughnut."
Although it has no basis in fact, the legend has since been repeated by reputable media, such as the BBC [2], The Guardian [3], a Political Bloopers segment on MSNBC's Countdown with Keith Olbermann [4], and in several books about Germany written by English-speaking authors. Native speakers will not recognize a grammatical error but they might catch the play on words if they are from a region outside of Berlin.
As for the creation of the speech, it had been reviewed by journalist Robert Lochner, who was educated in Germany, and had been practiced several times in front of numerous Germans, including Berlin Mayor Willy Brandt. As the speech was known to be important, the German parts had been chosen carefully and the many video and audio recordings of the event show only enthusiastic applause following the statement. During the speech Kennedy used the phrase twice. He also used the phrase to end his speech. However, Kennedy did pronounce the sentence with a strong Boston accent, reading from his note "ish bin ein Bearleener," which he had written out phonetically.
Perpetuators of the legend cite a parallel with the word " Hamburger." As "Berliner" may refer either to a doughnut or to a person from Berlin, so "Hamburger" may refer to a beef sandwich or to someone from Hamburg. But the parallel is only superficial because these toponyms have different usage. Only in modern times the citizens of Berlin have recognized that other regions call their "Pfannkuchen" by the name of "Berliner". Common souvenirs in Berlin depicting a doughnut covered with the inscription "Ich bin ein Berliner," which are often thought by American tourists to refer to this legend, represent little more than a contemporary play on words.
While it seems to be the consensus that "ich bin ein Berliner" is grammatically correct for "I am a citizen of Berlin", it may be worthwhile to point out that the translation to "I am a jelly-filled doughnut" is not illegitimate. That is to say, if Kennedy had meant to say "I am a jelly-filled doughnut" in German, he could have said "ich bin ein Berliner", correct?
What I'm getting at is that the article implies that the jelly doughnut thing is a complete mistranslation on par with saying it means "I am an automobile transmission", and I think that that tone should be improved upon. — wfaulk 23:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I heard this "urban legend" from a native-German German language teacher in 1977. She said it was an amusing error, but the German people understood and appreciated what JFK meant. I think calling it an "urban-legend" is an unsubstantiated POV. I too feel like a Berliner. -- Ray Eston Smith Jr 18:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I've made a couple of edits as a native-speaker of German, as it is closer to encyclopediatric standards in my opinion, I've cut some irrelevant info. Comments are welcome. I also changed the translation from "I am a citizen of Berlin" to a more direct and correct translation, "I am a Berlinian", though I don't know if it isn't grammatically wrong in English. Everyone's welcome to revert it. "I am a citizen of Berlin" would be "Ich bin ein Bürger Berlins" in German, the interpreter translated the Roman sentence to German as well,"Vor zweitausend Jahren war der stolzeste Satz ‚Ich bin ein Bürger Roms‘. Heute, in der Welt der Freiheit, ist der stolzeste Satz ‚Ich bin ein Berliner‘." INTERNAZI 15:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, for starters, it sounds like someone with a bone to pick wrote this entire article. As far as I've been informed, the line *was* indeed ambiguous, but that the German people automatically understood Kennedy's intent.
Calling it an Urban Legend amounts to throwing it in the same category as Alligators in the Sewers and Ghost Hitchhikers, and is a VERY poor choice of wording. It would sound better as "Common Misconceptions" or something to that effect. Again, the focus of this article seems to tell you that there was NO WAY that it could be ambiguous in any way, when in fact it is.
Blaiseball
23:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
This article definitely does express a personal POV. While there are many references to reputable journals that do claim that Kennedy did say this, the article does not mention any counter-sources at all. This means that this is someones personal view of what Kennedy meant and has no place in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Captainspirou ( talk • contribs) 00:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I am a German. I read about that donut legend, which to my mind is very absurd. Some stated that the use of the german article "ein" would be an indicator that he doesn't mean a person, but the jelly donut. Sorry - completely wrong!
Let's compare the two German sentences:
The strict semantics of both are almost identical, although the connotation/interpretation of both has a slight divergence:
Obviously, the first variant is the better one. It is the one that Kennedy used. If Kennedy hat used the latter, this would surely have been irritating for the audience. Like, as if Kennedy would spontaneously come out with the public revelation that he was not born in the US, but in Germany! What a sensation. MadocDoyu 11:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
MadocDoyu is absolutely right. "Ich bin Berliner" is the informal variant. Thorsten1 is also right with his "I'm a New Yorker"/"I'm a magazine" comparision. I must know that because I am not only a German (which never eat Doughnuts for breakfast, but with their afternoon coffee) but ich bin in fact ein Berliner 84.190.155.103 00:13, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
In fact, the statement is grammatically correct and cannot be misunderstood in that context. The urban legend is largely unknown in Germany citation needed,...