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Kennedy did not say "I am a donut". Period.
Before you decide to post anything about the urban legend that Kennedy made an error resulting in saying "I am a donut", please consider the following:
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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on June 26, 2004, June 26, 2005, June 26, 2006, June 26, 2008, June 26, 2009, June 26, 2012, and June 26, 2013. |
Would someone be able to explain, why it is "ein" and not "einen"? 50.158.229.206 ( talk) 23:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Because "ein" (a) is in nominative case, as the predicate of "Ich" in "Ich bin" (I am): I am a Berliner. "Einen" is in accusative, e.g. in the following sentence as the verb object: Ich habe einen Berliner = I have a Berliner
Since English has very little conjugation in nouns, pronouns, etc., the above may be difficult to absorb. The same is also the root cause for common mistakes such as "between you and I" (rather than "between you and me") similar to, perhaps, the grammatically wrong pattern "It's me" which is universally used instead of the pedantic "It is I". The latter, of course, sounds entirely natural in expressions such as "I is I who claims that...".
"Well, what happened was, a former president of the United States went to Berlin, Germany, and he shouted at the crowd: 'Ich bin ein Berliner!!' Now, for some reason which I cannot fathom, he was trying to say, 'I am a resident of Berlin!!' (He wasn't.) But, for some reason which I also cannot fathom, he was actually saying: 'I am a jelly doughnut!'
19:39, 9 September 2007 Amcbride (Talk | contribs) (16,739 bytes) (→Jelly doughnut urban legend - {sources} tag: I'm inclined to believe WP here, but currently this section presents 6 sources AGAINST its own thesis and zero for it)
Neither being a native German speaker nor being a Berlin resident makes you an expert in the question of the urban legend's status in Germany. That said, it is impossible to prove a negative, and probably impossible to find a source to back up a negative claim like "the urban legend is (virtually) unknown in Germany". The statement should simply be removed unless such a source actually does exist. — An gr 20:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.
Oh c'mon, you're taking the fun out of this where one would discuss reliability ouf sources - because every single of those references citing the myth as truth is obviously and by all logic less valuable than any single native speaker. Because they had forgotten to do the minimal original research that is all about good journalism. Even the reference to the word.com part does not show the slightest idea in the article of having any foundation for its claims. They just say so. (and to speak of cultural difference: sure, Aufklärung demands that authority is mainly drawn from proper reasoning in looking at the value of the text - its publisher is a secondary attribution. Yeah, even Science mags have bad days). Well anyway, if you feel fine with the current construction then so be it.
Going for "where is it known", well, the English wikipedia article has killed off already the reference that the origin of the popular myth is in the USA. The German wikipedia page still has it and it says frankly that it a US-centric phenomenon. And so far not a single reader had questioned that on de:Diskussion:Ich bin ein Berliner as "oh, I knew it already". May be you want to try google looking for German-speaking webpages - I assume that every single of them will say (a) it is a myth and (b) popular in the USA. (Unless they make out for a good satire anyway as the legend feels so ridiculous to a native speaker). If you have too much time then go looking and show me some counter example. What shall the ratio be for virtually unknown, 100:1 or 10000000:1 ? I can throw in some hundred people that I know personally around - whom can you account for as a counter example? Guidod 00:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I have now supplied sources for several of the apparently contentious statements about the urban legend of the jelly doughnut. These sources, all of which are in German, clearly state that the type of jelly doughnut in question is called a Pfannkuchen in Berlin, that the urban legend prevalent in English-speaking countries is incorrect, and that the Kennedy speech was one of the great and celebrated moments in German post-war history. Not many English-language sources debunk this silly myth. One reason is the urban legend itself, another is the tremendous admiration and affection that most Germans, across the political spectrum, felt and continue to feel for Kennedy and his courageous speech. Being German and having lived in Germany from birth until age 24, I can certainly personally attest to those feelings of Germans about the speech. Perhaps for this reason Germans are not inclined to make fun of it. A U.S. analogue would be the Gettysburg Address. Substantively, the urban legend is utter and complete nonsense. I know from personal experience that many U.S. citizens find this hard to believe (some of the comments on this page seem to reflect a certain resistance to letting go of the legend). Nevertheless, it's true. I am very glad that this article sets the record straight. Paradisewithinthee 22:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Here, in a nutshell, is the basic problem with Wikipedia: (a) Not going for true facts but 'verifiable' facts; (b) 'verifiable' facts are defined as those that some terribly terribly self-important body (e.g. the UN, or some newspaper that happens to be the flavour of the month with metro-lefty-liberal people, such as the NYT) has decreed to be so. Thus, it doesn't matter what native German speakers say: it matters what some scribbler with a little learning in some newspaper in an English-speaking country has stated. It doesn't matter that Jerusalem is factually the capital of Israel, just as the peak of Mt Everest is factually the highest point on earth: metro-lefty-liberal Israel-haters (and of course, the club of fascist countries in the UN) dislike this plain fact, so they claim it isn't so and Wikipedia mimics them cravenly. In the particular case described here, there was no confusion at all in the minds of the people of Germany; Kennedy said that he was (figuratively) a person from Berlin. Only English-speaking hacks imagined otherwise.
Kennedy says, "And I am proud to ... come here in the company of my fellow American, General Clay, who has been in this city during its great moments of crisis and will come again if ever needed." Does anyone know who is this General Clay? -- Acepectif 09:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, a Berliner would say "Ick bin ein Berliner"? A somewhat reliable source: the "Ick bin ein Amerikaner" T-shirts on http://usa.usembassy.de/gemeinsam/05.htm. Erik Warmelink ( talk) 00:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
http://images.google.de/images?hl=de&um=1&sa=1&q=amerikaner&btnG=Bilder-Suche&aq=f&oq= —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.135.98.74 ( talk) 14:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
I removed "Although it has no basis in fact, the legend has since been repeated by reputable media, such as the BBC[8], The Guardian[9], MSNBC[10], CNN[11], Time magazine[12], and in several books about Germany written by English-speaking authors, including Norman Davies[13]." If you follow those links, you will not find any mention of President Kennedy or jelly doughnuts. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 02:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I sit corrected. I took out the internal links (which I had assumed were the proper sources) and hope they will stay out, since they confuse the reader and are really not necessary. Anybody who reads this article should already know these news organisations. Mea culpa. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 07:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
"In fact, the statement is both grammatically correct[3] and perfectly idiomatic, and cannot be misunderstood in context." It's not a fact. The fact is that it has been misunderstood in context. Otherwise, this whole argument would not be here. 157.127.124.14 ( talk) 16:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
The BBC and the Guardian are 'reputable'? ROFL. Here again is the root-problem with Wikipedia. If it's a metro-lefty-liberal body, even if it has published blatant lies in pursuit of its political agenda, what it says must be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 13:53, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
It's not a misunderstanding that would be anywhere close at hand for a native German speaker, then or now - least of all a denizen of Berlin (a city where the pastry in question isn't even called by the B-word!). As pointed out in the article, and a hundred times here on the talk page, "ein Berliner" is both more punchy when spoken in public, and syntactically necessary when the idea to be conveyed is "I belong with those who dwell in Berlin, or who were born in Berlin" although the speaker does not himself literally come from Berlin: stating your solidarity and joint purpose with that group.
And there is nothing illogical or deluded about such a thought. Many of the jerks saying "no man, he was inadvertently claiming he was a doughnut!" seem to have missed out on the word metaphor, a common device in speech-writing and even in ordinary language. 83.254.154.164 ( talk) 00:53, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
He actually said I am a jelly dough nut. Ich bin Berliner is the correct phrase. this needs to be redone... after discussion of course. At the very least we have to present this neutral as well as the parenthetical translation needs to be correct. Superbowlbound ( talk) 21:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It could just as easily be claimed that someone saying "I am a New Yorker." was calling themself a magazine. So no, he was not calling himself a jelly donut. 70.49.90.14 ( talk) 05:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
actually saying "ich bin ein Berliner" sounds stronger in a speech than just saying "Ich bin Berliner", although it might be gramatically wrong. For the average german speaker this only adds the double meaning of doughnut/citizen from berlin, so unless you are higly educated in german language you would not waste your brainpower on thinking about what is correct, so there is no such urban legend in german speaking countrys. I sometimes joke about kennedy being a doughnut because were i come from these doughnut are called berliners, but if you walk into a bakery in berlin and ask for a "berliner", there is a good chance they have no idea what you are talking about, as they are called "pfannkuchen" here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.188.160.153 ( talk) 17:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The comparison to saying "I am a New Yorker" is a false one. No one questions Kennedy's intent, nor how it was received, since his intent was clear. However, grammatically, taking the ambiguous and not grammatically correct route make the "urban legend" accurate. I always heard, from native German speakers, no less, that, technically, he was saying "jelly donut." NOT that it was taken that way. The most grammatically correct use is "Ich bin Berliner." However, the most grammatically correct use IS "I am a New Yorker" - so that comparison is completely invalid. A more proper comparison would be if a German came and said "I am THE New Yorker."
Pointing out that no one misunderstood him, is quite different from saying "this is completely false..." particularly when it ISN'T completely false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.154.3.201 ( talk) 20:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the above, that the "urban legend" is not false, but completely accurate. My mother is a native German speaker, and she laughed during the speech because of it. (She also happens to have a Master's degree in German, but she's told me that her friends also laughed about the phrase after the speech; they all considered it a funny error by the US President.) 96.50.106.54 ( talk) 01:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm from Germany. I personally think by the word "Berliner" first on a jelly doughnut, but there are regionally differences. "Berliner Pfannkuchen" has the short name "Berliner" in some german areas and "Pfannkuchen" in the area near of Berlin. There are also areas where we call it "Krapfen" or "Kreppel". To me it doesnt sound very different if someone says "Ich bin ein Heidelberger" or "Ich bin Heidelberger", I personally would prefer "Ich bin ein Heidelberger", but there might be also regional differences. JFKs sentence sounds to me absolutely correct. Its true, we find this double meaning funny, but we like him for the true meaning of this sentence, i.e "Im Herzen bin ich Berliner" (In my heart i am berliner). Martin, 19.03.2013.
WRONG. I speak to Germans all the time, and NONE of them are impressed by this urban myth. Without exception, they state that Kennedy said "I am (figuratively) from Berlin". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 13:56, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Here is Martin again: As I told before there might be regional differences. But "Ich bin ein Heidelberger" ist 100% native German. See acutally the Link from Heidelberger Druck "Darum bin ich ein Heidelberger" https://www.heidelberg.com/global/de/company/career/why_i_am_a_heidelberger/why_i_m_a_heidelberger.jsp . They even use the "a" in the english translation! So JFK was correct. The fact, that "Berliner" is ambiguous (similar to "Hamburger") is another issue and has nothing to do with the discussion of using "a" or not using "a". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.240.197.77 ( talk) 14:31, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
silly rabbit ( talk) 11:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
That coin does not talk. The phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" is simply declared on the coin next to Kennedy's effigy. Read your souces more carefully please. Alandeus ( talk) 09:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Is there still a debate on this? i gather it is understood now that Kennedy called himself a doughnut, and the point made above under "Not an urban legend" is poignant: if i say to an English speaker, "i am a Danish"* i will be taken for a visitor from slightly north of Germany, and naturally not for an iced pastry with apricot jelly in the middle. But the comparison is perfect, thus the grins on the faces of the crowd filmed during the speech. He could have spoken in Hamburg without disastrous effects and resulting debate, as a "hamburger" is just another pure American fiction (as are frankfurters, also a kind of comminuted retrieved-meat product). Still: nobody so far has been recorded entering a German baker's asking for a Kennedy - perhaps it's time.
...and with regard to "I agree with the urban legend section, but...", i must make this correction: a pfann(pfanne=pan)kuchen(=cake) is, as you see, a pancake and not a dough nut!
Joe Chop 'addendum': i see this debate is predicated on verifiable information/reliable sources etc. - may i point out that the only reliable source is the footage available; if you are not thoroughly conversant in German or think you must somehow defend a Nation's "honour" at any price then you are obfuscating the debate. Also: with regard to the New Yorker magazine comparison, it would be accurate to suppose the talker referred to themselves as The New Yorker -- And apologies to the Moderator, but in the summation box heading this debate, the first four points are either innacurate or ill informed. ..."infinitely unlikely" etc. i perceive as well, this is hardly edifying - the Future Of Debate looks grim.
... and i don't need to consult a dozen Berlin residents btw, i am (a!!) German. unsigned comment added by Joe Chop ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
... Eichhoff-schmeichoff: "If he says that Kennedy's phrase was correct, that should settle the matter..." is just more bulldozing, you won't convince any German speakers that's for sure;
@ ProhibitOnions: your comment regarding those with a smattering of German ironically applies to you, as i see you are from Newcastle -- and please check your spelling.[[Joe Chop]
I don't think it is being completely fair to say that it has NO basis in fact. The article admits that there is a pastry called a Berliner and it is known in many parts of Germany as that. The understanding of the German language and the Berlin dialect are what is wrong with the urban legend. Maybe I am being nit-picky, and I realize that myths have to be treated carefully, but a kernel of truth doesn't equal "no basis in fact" no matter how wrong something is.-- 66.153.117.118 ( talk) 18:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree here; the phrase "no basis in fact" suggests to me that the article is getting defensive of JFK. The article itself mentions that in stating one's place of origin it is typical to omit the indefinite article in German; is that not a basis in fact, even if the conclusion is incorrect? -- 146.201.154.162 ( talk) 05:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, the user who reverted the article after I removed the phrase cited as his reason "until myths become facts, it has no basis in fact." Such an argument is completely invalid; nearly all myths have some basis in fact. I believe such a statement is both a misunderstanding of what a myth is (and truly, this "urban legend" is not even a myth) and a misunderstanding of what a basis in fact is. To state that a story has no basis in fact is quite different from stating that it is untrue. I don't want to start an edit war here, but the article should not have been reverted.-- 146.201.154.162 ( talk) 05:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe the edit I just made created a more accurate phrasing; it is a fact that in parts of Germany there is a pastry called a Berliner, so the legend has a basis in some kind of fact, no matter how erroneously interpreted.-- SockEat ( talk) 03:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
actually saying "ich bin ein Berliner" sounds stronger in a speech than just saying "Ich bin Berliner", although it might be gramatically wrong. For the average german speaker this only adds the double meaning of doughnut/citizen from berlin, so unless you are higly educated in german language you would not waste your brainpower on thinking about what is correct, so there is no such urban legend in german speaking countrys. I sometimes joke about kennedy being a doughnut because were i come from these doughnut are called berliners, but if you walk into a bakery in berlin and ask for a "berliner", there is a good chance they have no idea what you are talking about, as they are called "pfannkuchen" here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.188.160.153 ( talk) 18:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
hm the debate seems now to be about whether Kennedy called himself a pancake or a doughnut; i would like to know what the Berliner call a pancake, because it's surely not Pfannkuchen! i'll probably hear some more krapfen on this. By the way, i think it rather immature for there to be a Big Pink Panel with a warning hand informing us of what to think, placed so as to catch the eye before reading on. i ask that this be removed in the interest of fairness and democracy; and i noticed how the fantastical claim of infinite unlikelihood has changed, moderated maybe, to one of extreme... Mkill, check your meaning *loools/points* "and yes, it's funny, but that does make the historical importance of these words any less">> Joe Chop ( talk) 11:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC) Joe Chop ( talk) 01:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC) Joe Chop
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.100.209 ( talk) 23:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I wonder how old the story is, and how it got started. If someone has access to old copies of the Reader's Digest, it should appear in one of the humor-in-real-life columns, possibly in the 1970's, or early 1980's. The way I remember it, the submitter claimed his/her parent was told the story by a tour bus operator in Berlin. SlowJog ( talk) 15:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
P.S. If anyone can find that entry in The R.D., I think she/he would also note that the tour guide said that the people who heard the speech took the meaning J.F.K. intended. They were caught up in the enthusiasm and emotion of the speech, and did not notice the mistake. SlowJog ( talk) 21:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The "jelly donut" story makes not sense, that's correct. "Ich bin ein Berliner" could have been misunderstood as "I am a jelly-filled donut" - but only if during one the most emotional times in Berlin and one of the most important speeches (from a Berliner point of view) by the most powerful person in the world, talking about world politics for 90 minutes, someone was only thinking about something to eat... Well, in short: It makes no sense at all.
However, if the "Ich bin ein Kölsch" story by Bill Clinton is true, he did make a mistake: A "Kölsch" is only the beer, definitely not an inhabitant of Cologne, who is still called "ein Kölner" (or maybe "ein Kölsche Jung" or something like that) - but "ein Kölsch" can never be confused, especially in a bar. When the bar man doesn't react on "bring mir ein Kölsch" (bring me a beer!!!), he gets killed :-) Sorry, Bill... but I guess everyone was happy and laughed, and no-one felt offended by the mistake.
For my reputation, I am a native speaker of German and have lived here for all of my life. -- 62.54.12.70 ( talk) 17:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
————
In 1999, President Cliton was in Cologne. He wanted to say in German: "I am a Cologne". In German there are two variants: "Ich bin ein Kölner" (the standrad German variant) or "Ich bin ein kölsche Jung" (translate: I'am a boy from Colonge, this is normaly use by people from Cologne). But the President mixed both and said: "Ich bin ein Kölsch" (translate: I´m a Beer). [2] —Preceding unsigned comment moved here from article by Alandeus ( talk • contribs) 15:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Why? why is this comment in this article. Reagan's speech is not include, and so why has Obama. I like him, I just think that including it here is not needed. As a US President Reagan's speech had more connection to Kennedy's then does Obama's. To me this looks like propaganda. -- 68.231.54.78 ( talk) 09:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
While sometimes Wikipedia seems like SimpsonPedia, or USPresidentialCandidatePedia, it is not. Accordingly, I have moved these factoids from the article. Please make a case for their inclusion here. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 16:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
For example, in anticipation of a speech to be given by U.S. Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama in Berlin on July 24, 2008, a cartoonist on the website townhall.com depicted Obama saying "Ich bin ein beginner". [5]. The joke was repeated on Fox News by commentator Brit Hume. [6]
On The Simpsons, Grandpa said he knew "Kennedy's dark secret." In the subsequent flashback Kennedy is standing on the bow of the pt boat PT-109 during World War II and says "''Ich bin ein berliner''" after which Grandpa yells " Nazi!" and pushes him overboard.
I am of the opinion that these do not belong in the article; these are the kinds of things you see in lists of miscellaneous information at the ends of articles that aren't particularly good. It is not the aim of wikipedia to make reference to every joke included in the Simpsons, nor to include every detail of what happens to be the current presidential campaign in the United States.-- 66.32.247.67 ( talk) 06:51, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
An anon IP recently changed a quoted passage in the text. I have verified that the original statement was correct (prior to the change). Here is a google books link to a snippet containing the quote in question. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 21:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Why not link to the text at Wikiquote [5] instead of some other source? -- JensMueller ( talk) 20:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
This text is given as a quotation:
But the corresponding reference doesn't contain this exact quote at all. So where did it come from? It's all over the internet, but that seems to be because people are taking it from this page. Can anyone say where this pair of sentences originally came from? Lfh ( talk) 11:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Everyone keeps attacking the people who bring up whether the term Kennedy used is an urban legend, or it isn't. The problem is is that it is NO legend! Does anyone who dismisses new arguments actually speak German? President Kennedy said "I am a Berliner," although he did also say that he was a doughnut. Absurb, but correct. To imply that the speculation is a legend is to say that the sun and the moon and the earth are all urban legends.
All terms on the page referring to an "urban legend" should be replaced with something to the effect of "speculation" or "controversies." Change the term and all this will go away. Too much effort has been put into fending off discussion about the term when all of it could be avoided by a clarification of the flexible term. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 02:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Quote "Does anyone [...] speak German?" Answer: there are dozens of Germans who have bookmarked this page and you will find that during the lengthy discussions above ALL of them agreed that the "jelly doughnut" interpretation is untrue. In other word: there is no controversy among native speakers. There is even no speculation that the legend started in the English-speaking world as the legend is largely unknown in German-speaking countries. No need to give that Urban Legend a chance to come out different than what it is so obviously. Guidod ( talk) 20:37, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth: Snopes.com, the expert website, recently put out a piece on this: http://www.snopes.com/language/misxlate/berliner.asp. Alandeus ( talk) 14:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
I will remove all language from this article referring to an "urban legend" of the President's choice of words if there is no resolution by Tuesday 15 Decemeber 2009 12:00 PM PST. Here is the question (please respond "Aye", "No" or "Not Voting"):
Shall the "urban legend" language in this article remain in place ? GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 02:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
YES. It is indeed an urban legend. There is an article about this on the Urban Legends Reference Pages. The previous post makes no sense. Reywas92 Talk 02:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
YES. While it is NOT a normal legend, it is nevertheless an URBAN legend. Alandeus ( talk) 07:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
YES. See above. And Wikipedia is full of native speakers of German like me, including some who live in Berlin and many from outside. If this article was as wrong as you suggest someone would have noticed by now. Hans Adler 17:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
NO. See section 17. Anyway, I appreciate the democratic process. However, the jihad-like effort to keep gray area language in this article is disturbing. The biggest point I wanted to make is it's not what the President's point was, but what he literally said. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 17:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
KEEP, see above, clearly an Urban Legend, greetings from Berlin. Guidod ( talk) 20:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, the lede is too long compared to the rest of the article, and needs to be balanced to accurately summarise the article as a whole. I will add this to my long list of things to look at that never seem to get done. Brilliantine ( talk) 01:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Of course Kennedy said he was a doughnut. It is the height of Wikipedia arrogance to think they know more than all the media outlets mentioned (citation not needed) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.105.26 ( talk) 21:18, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
So, this controversy is interesting. I am a German speaker, and have lived in Germany, though not in Berlin. If I were to say "I am a citizen of Berlin", I would indeed say "Ich bin Berliner". "Ich bin ein Berliner" is not the way to convey that information -- ein Berliner, ein Frankfurter, ein Hamburger - these are all food items. It is true that the Berliners assembled for the speech immediately knew what Kennedy was saying - essentially that he supported West Berlin as an outpost of democracy surrounded by the communist East Germany. It was a profound political statement. Nonetheless, it was also funny - therefore probably the perfect political statement. There seems to be a "truthiness" contingent about German grammar in this discussion seemingly based on egotism, jingoism and who has the most time to waste posting to this article - which is why Wikipedia will remain a "mental masturbation" site, and never really an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ManyFireflies ( talk • contribs) 20:37, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
The sound file in this article is interrupted at exactly 4:00 minutes with a voice that is distinctly not Kennedy's (then the speech resumes). Has this sound file been "doctored"? The voice is very similar to that of Goebbels. What's up with that? Dr. Dan ( talk) 04:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Sorry but the context was wrong; Kennedy should have said "Ich komme aus Berlin" because "Ich bin ein Berliner" is just not how any Germans would have said! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.100.216 ( talk) 08:00, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Part of that text is incorrect :
It's worth recalling, again, President John F. Kennedy's use of a German phrase while standing before the Berlin Wall. It would be great, his wordsmiths thought, for him to declare himself a symbolic citizen of Berlin. Hence, Ich bin ein Berliner. What they did not know, but could easily have found out, was that such citizens never refer to themselves as "Berliners." They reserve that term for a favorite confection often munched at breakfast. So, while they understood and appreciated the sentiments behind the President's impassioned declaration, the residents tittered among themselves when he exclaimed, literally, "I am a jelly-filled doughnut."[5]
Of course Berliners do refer to themself as Berliners, when they are asked where they are from, they say Ich bin Berliner and when someone asks them, if they are from somewhere else, they say, nein, ich bin ein Berliner. In other words to emphesise identification with Berliners one would say Ich bin e i n Berliner, could also say Ich bin a u c h e i n Berliner, I am also a Berliner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.185.229.198 ( talk • contribs)
+ 1 - it is common to refer to the inhabitants of Berlin as "Berliners" - this urban myth is quite funny, but it is nonsense. In German both sentences "Ich bin Berliner" or "Ich bin ein Berliner" are correctly understood - the second one is a kind of slang, the first one is the "Hochsprache", official German. Obviously Kennedy was not well advised to use this kind of slang. I have never heared of this misconception in about fourty years of reading newspapers and looking television - this quotation is still very popular and important for the history of Berlin - this urban myth must have spread years after the event only in the english-speaking press (will be interesting to look for the first source for it) Plehn ( talk) 20:01, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
That the Berliner Pfannkuche would be called simply a Pfannkuche in Berlin is not yet verified by the sources, and is actually belied by this reference, which is much more reliable than this website, and says, "to those who live in Berlin, the phrase 'ein Berliner' means a kind of jelly donut." So, I'm sorry, but I am going to revert this edit]--I'm sure, though, that you can more easily find a better source than I can, and I welcome a revert, but with a better source than that website. Thanks, Drmies ( talk) 23:54, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
In addition to the source cited by Hans Adler, here is some more evidence for the so far undisputed fact that Berliners say 'Pfannkuchen' for what is known as 'Berliner' (and several other names) in other areas of Germany. This is just to appease the doubters - I think it would look rather ridiculous to put sources next to a sentence stating an obvious fact, but I concede it's a matter of taste. At the bottom, there's also some Dutch sources, including one from de Volkskrant, I hope Drmies can accept it as "reliable". :) Here we go:
And here are some results in Dutch, especially for Drmies. ;)
-- kate theobaldy ( talk) 20:08, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
In the more than two weeks that have passed since I posted the above list, Drmies made numerous edits elsewhere. I take it that s/he has either forgotten about it, or, more probably, is no longer arguing against the notion that "Berliner" are simply called "Pfannkuchen" in Berlin. I therefore suggest we consider the case closed. --11:18, 1 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kate theobaldy ( talk • contribs)
I am from Germany and it is true that in Berlin, they say "Pfannkuchen" and not "Berliner". In the article it still says "known in Berlin as a "Berliner"", which is clearly wrong. Even one of the links cited there confirms the Pfannkuchen: "Diese Urban Legend ist schon alleine weil Berliner »Pfannkuchen« zu eben dieser süßen Speise sagen ziemlicher Unsinn [...]" (translated: "This urban legend is pretty absurd not only because people from Berlin call this sweet dish "Pfannkuchen""). -- 94.222.140.130 ( talk) 19:06, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Let us now hear the verdict from on high:
"Kennedy did not say 'I am a donut'. Period."
So much for "anyone can edit" on Wikipedia! What a joke. Some administrator gives their verdict, "PERIOD," and after that no further debate is allowed. My junior high school German teacher, who was a native of Germany, is the person I first heard the jelly doughnut story from, so no, it is not merely a non-German invention. But I guess it's pointless to discuss it on this authoritarian website. Troglo ( talk) 23:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
For anyone *still* not convinced, there is a very nice video explaining the myth on YouTube, featuring an excerpt of the Kennedy speech and a real Berliner Pfannkuchen: How edible was JFK? Hans Adler 08:54, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
By the way, nobody puts jelly in doughnuts, it's JAM, as in jam doughnut. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.208.211.202 ( talk) 23:15, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
"jelly" is not more common - only in the US. There is an entire English speaking world out there. Although some may call it jelly, they are incorrect to do so. It is jam. Jam can indeed be "smooth style" i.e. not containing large pieces of fruit and is indeed often contained in doughnuts. Jam Doughnut is the correct term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.65.56.82 ( talk) 13:15, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
It is not "more common". The fact that many in the US use the incorrect word is irrelevant. What the doughnut contains is in fact JAM. This is an inescapable fact. You cannot just "declare" jelly to be in more common usage, which in any case is irrelevant. The correct word is Jam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.227.184 ( talk • contribs)
Who elected you jelly furher? Jelly IS NOT MORE COMMON! It may be to YOU, and a number of others, but you are all wrong. There is an whole world outside the US. Many people speak English. To the overwhelming majority JAM is the correct term. Neither you nor the US are the centre of the universe. Any reverts will be treated as vandalism. 178.208.196.33
AGAIN, the origin of the myth is irrelevant. The word in common useage in the English language for the foodstuff concerned is undoubtedly JAM. Jelly is an entirely different substance. Any reverts will be treated as vandalism. Stop being so US-centric. Stop dictating to others. 178.208.196.33
If somebody in germany says "I am a Berliner" (Ich bin ein Berliner) nobody thinks of a doughnut. So it is clear in germany nobody laughed when he said "Ich bin ein Berliner."
This joke is a completely american invention. Is is not known in Germany.
Jms (
talk)
15:50, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
There are differences between German as spoken in Berlin, and elsewhere. Do we have a comment from a well-educated Berliner, that should put an end to the matter? Royalcourtier ( talk) 20:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
i was stationed in Mannheim in USArmy 1983 and the tall German woman who taught us the rudiments of the german language said that due to the New England accent the Berliner sounded like the term for a Ba-lin-a a type of jelly donut,. But due to the gravity of the situation, and the German people's warm reception of people trying to pronouce correctly, even if not perfect from foreigners 2600:6C4E:97F:F65E:1464:E66C:AA32:15CE ( talk) 22:07, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the following text from the article:
The origin of the misconception is obscure. An early sighting occurred in volume 55 of Management Review (1966):
John F. Kennedy's famous words "Ich bin ein Berliner" created confused reactions among his German audience. What he meant, of course, was "I am a citizen of Berlin". What he actually said came closer to "I am a doughnut". Because the translation followed the English construction word for word, it included the article "ein" for "a". "Ein berliner," in German, is a type of cruller - a flat doughnut. [7]
The editor has been misled by the way Google Books dates periodicals: it dates the entire series based on the date of the first issue. In fact, it is apparent that this issue of Management Review is from the mid-to-late 1980s -- probably mid 1986, based on an advertisement for a conference in June of that year, which can easily be found by searching for the string "1986" within the volume.. Grover cleveland ( talk) 08:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't want to comment on whether Kennedy make a grammatical error in German or not, but the tone of the article as a whole is POV. To say that the "speech is considered one of Kennedy's best, both a notable moment of the Cold War and a high point of the New Frontier" is unreferenced confused and unencyclopaedic. A speech may be at a "notable moment", and a high point of the "New Frontier". That may make a speech important, but does not make it better or the best. To say that it was "a great morale boost for West Berliners" is simply unreferenced opinion. Unless these opinions can be adequately supported by credible references, they should be deleted. 125.237.105.102 ( talk) 03:51, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Just a brief comment about the final sentence in the introduction. "To Germans his words were received with sincerity, very endearing and very uniquely American!" Clearly this is not an objective POV, especially with no citation or reference. Both uses of the word "very" are meaningless and unnecessary. Finally, An exclamation point has no place outside of a quote in a Wikipedia article. Dkelber ( talk) 14:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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The following ended the lead 'graph: "The quotation was just short of five months before Kennedy was assassinated later that same year." Presumably, this is accurate, but no relevance to the topic is cited. There may be a place for relating this juxtaposition, most obviously in his bio. If there is significant delusion about a causal connection, that might be at least a dubious reason for its inclusion. In the context where i removed it, it must be treated as a bizarre tangent, and some editors might well take on the periodic checking for its reintroduction without a substantial consensus on a specific valuable purpose it could serve.
The article presently has The myth entered the German Wikipedia article "Ich bin Berliner" in May 2005 brought over from the English version where it had been discussed since the creation of the article in October 2001. It was already marked as an urban legend at the time in 2005. The German version settled on a section title "misconception in the english-speaking world" (Missverständnis im englischsprachigen Raum) by January 2007.
with both of these sentences being cited with permalinks to the German Wikipedia. This is a use of
WP:PRIMARY sources, and while
WP:CIRCULAR allows citation of Wikipedia to discuss Wikipedia, it also notes Wikipedia or the sister project is a
primary source in this case and may be used following the
policy for primary sources. Any such use should avoid
original research,
undue emphasis on Wikipedia's role or views, and
inappropriate self-reference. The article text should clarify how the material is sourced from Wikipedia to inform the reader about the potential bias.
As such, this article would benefit from a
WP:SECONDARY source to show that this isn't undue, to properly contexualize it, etc. I have not deleted anything, just requested there be an additional reference other than Wikipedia itself, but this whole paragraph seems to be
WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH and full of
WP:SYNTHESIS.
Umimmak (
talk)
17:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I may be overlooking something but it appears that one part of the article says 150,000 people were in attendance, and in another, 450,000 - start of paragraph 4 in introduction, and first paragraph of Delivery section. Of if these numbers refer to different groups rather than different estimates, perhaps that could be clarified? Rosie Willis ( talk) 00:31, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
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Kennedy did not say "I am a donut". Period.
Before you decide to post anything about the urban legend that Kennedy made an error resulting in saying "I am a donut", please consider the following:
|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on June 26, 2004, June 26, 2005, June 26, 2006, June 26, 2008, June 26, 2009, June 26, 2012, and June 26, 2013. |
Would someone be able to explain, why it is "ein" and not "einen"? 50.158.229.206 ( talk) 23:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Because "ein" (a) is in nominative case, as the predicate of "Ich" in "Ich bin" (I am): I am a Berliner. "Einen" is in accusative, e.g. in the following sentence as the verb object: Ich habe einen Berliner = I have a Berliner
Since English has very little conjugation in nouns, pronouns, etc., the above may be difficult to absorb. The same is also the root cause for common mistakes such as "between you and I" (rather than "between you and me") similar to, perhaps, the grammatically wrong pattern "It's me" which is universally used instead of the pedantic "It is I". The latter, of course, sounds entirely natural in expressions such as "I is I who claims that...".
"Well, what happened was, a former president of the United States went to Berlin, Germany, and he shouted at the crowd: 'Ich bin ein Berliner!!' Now, for some reason which I cannot fathom, he was trying to say, 'I am a resident of Berlin!!' (He wasn't.) But, for some reason which I also cannot fathom, he was actually saying: 'I am a jelly doughnut!'
19:39, 9 September 2007 Amcbride (Talk | contribs) (16,739 bytes) (→Jelly doughnut urban legend - {sources} tag: I'm inclined to believe WP here, but currently this section presents 6 sources AGAINST its own thesis and zero for it)
Neither being a native German speaker nor being a Berlin resident makes you an expert in the question of the urban legend's status in Germany. That said, it is impossible to prove a negative, and probably impossible to find a source to back up a negative claim like "the urban legend is (virtually) unknown in Germany". The statement should simply be removed unless such a source actually does exist. — An gr 20:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.
Oh c'mon, you're taking the fun out of this where one would discuss reliability ouf sources - because every single of those references citing the myth as truth is obviously and by all logic less valuable than any single native speaker. Because they had forgotten to do the minimal original research that is all about good journalism. Even the reference to the word.com part does not show the slightest idea in the article of having any foundation for its claims. They just say so. (and to speak of cultural difference: sure, Aufklärung demands that authority is mainly drawn from proper reasoning in looking at the value of the text - its publisher is a secondary attribution. Yeah, even Science mags have bad days). Well anyway, if you feel fine with the current construction then so be it.
Going for "where is it known", well, the English wikipedia article has killed off already the reference that the origin of the popular myth is in the USA. The German wikipedia page still has it and it says frankly that it a US-centric phenomenon. And so far not a single reader had questioned that on de:Diskussion:Ich bin ein Berliner as "oh, I knew it already". May be you want to try google looking for German-speaking webpages - I assume that every single of them will say (a) it is a myth and (b) popular in the USA. (Unless they make out for a good satire anyway as the legend feels so ridiculous to a native speaker). If you have too much time then go looking and show me some counter example. What shall the ratio be for virtually unknown, 100:1 or 10000000:1 ? I can throw in some hundred people that I know personally around - whom can you account for as a counter example? Guidod 00:10, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I have now supplied sources for several of the apparently contentious statements about the urban legend of the jelly doughnut. These sources, all of which are in German, clearly state that the type of jelly doughnut in question is called a Pfannkuchen in Berlin, that the urban legend prevalent in English-speaking countries is incorrect, and that the Kennedy speech was one of the great and celebrated moments in German post-war history. Not many English-language sources debunk this silly myth. One reason is the urban legend itself, another is the tremendous admiration and affection that most Germans, across the political spectrum, felt and continue to feel for Kennedy and his courageous speech. Being German and having lived in Germany from birth until age 24, I can certainly personally attest to those feelings of Germans about the speech. Perhaps for this reason Germans are not inclined to make fun of it. A U.S. analogue would be the Gettysburg Address. Substantively, the urban legend is utter and complete nonsense. I know from personal experience that many U.S. citizens find this hard to believe (some of the comments on this page seem to reflect a certain resistance to letting go of the legend). Nevertheless, it's true. I am very glad that this article sets the record straight. Paradisewithinthee 22:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Here, in a nutshell, is the basic problem with Wikipedia: (a) Not going for true facts but 'verifiable' facts; (b) 'verifiable' facts are defined as those that some terribly terribly self-important body (e.g. the UN, or some newspaper that happens to be the flavour of the month with metro-lefty-liberal people, such as the NYT) has decreed to be so. Thus, it doesn't matter what native German speakers say: it matters what some scribbler with a little learning in some newspaper in an English-speaking country has stated. It doesn't matter that Jerusalem is factually the capital of Israel, just as the peak of Mt Everest is factually the highest point on earth: metro-lefty-liberal Israel-haters (and of course, the club of fascist countries in the UN) dislike this plain fact, so they claim it isn't so and Wikipedia mimics them cravenly. In the particular case described here, there was no confusion at all in the minds of the people of Germany; Kennedy said that he was (figuratively) a person from Berlin. Only English-speaking hacks imagined otherwise.
Kennedy says, "And I am proud to ... come here in the company of my fellow American, General Clay, who has been in this city during its great moments of crisis and will come again if ever needed." Does anyone know who is this General Clay? -- Acepectif 09:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, a Berliner would say "Ick bin ein Berliner"? A somewhat reliable source: the "Ick bin ein Amerikaner" T-shirts on http://usa.usembassy.de/gemeinsam/05.htm. Erik Warmelink ( talk) 00:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
http://images.google.de/images?hl=de&um=1&sa=1&q=amerikaner&btnG=Bilder-Suche&aq=f&oq= —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.135.98.74 ( talk) 14:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
I removed "Although it has no basis in fact, the legend has since been repeated by reputable media, such as the BBC[8], The Guardian[9], MSNBC[10], CNN[11], Time magazine[12], and in several books about Germany written by English-speaking authors, including Norman Davies[13]." If you follow those links, you will not find any mention of President Kennedy or jelly doughnuts. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 02:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I sit corrected. I took out the internal links (which I had assumed were the proper sources) and hope they will stay out, since they confuse the reader and are really not necessary. Anybody who reads this article should already know these news organisations. Mea culpa. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 07:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
"In fact, the statement is both grammatically correct[3] and perfectly idiomatic, and cannot be misunderstood in context." It's not a fact. The fact is that it has been misunderstood in context. Otherwise, this whole argument would not be here. 157.127.124.14 ( talk) 16:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
The BBC and the Guardian are 'reputable'? ROFL. Here again is the root-problem with Wikipedia. If it's a metro-lefty-liberal body, even if it has published blatant lies in pursuit of its political agenda, what it says must be true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 13:53, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
It's not a misunderstanding that would be anywhere close at hand for a native German speaker, then or now - least of all a denizen of Berlin (a city where the pastry in question isn't even called by the B-word!). As pointed out in the article, and a hundred times here on the talk page, "ein Berliner" is both more punchy when spoken in public, and syntactically necessary when the idea to be conveyed is "I belong with those who dwell in Berlin, or who were born in Berlin" although the speaker does not himself literally come from Berlin: stating your solidarity and joint purpose with that group.
And there is nothing illogical or deluded about such a thought. Many of the jerks saying "no man, he was inadvertently claiming he was a doughnut!" seem to have missed out on the word metaphor, a common device in speech-writing and even in ordinary language. 83.254.154.164 ( talk) 00:53, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
He actually said I am a jelly dough nut. Ich bin Berliner is the correct phrase. this needs to be redone... after discussion of course. At the very least we have to present this neutral as well as the parenthetical translation needs to be correct. Superbowlbound ( talk) 21:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
It could just as easily be claimed that someone saying "I am a New Yorker." was calling themself a magazine. So no, he was not calling himself a jelly donut. 70.49.90.14 ( talk) 05:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
actually saying "ich bin ein Berliner" sounds stronger in a speech than just saying "Ich bin Berliner", although it might be gramatically wrong. For the average german speaker this only adds the double meaning of doughnut/citizen from berlin, so unless you are higly educated in german language you would not waste your brainpower on thinking about what is correct, so there is no such urban legend in german speaking countrys. I sometimes joke about kennedy being a doughnut because were i come from these doughnut are called berliners, but if you walk into a bakery in berlin and ask for a "berliner", there is a good chance they have no idea what you are talking about, as they are called "pfannkuchen" here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.188.160.153 ( talk) 17:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
The comparison to saying "I am a New Yorker" is a false one. No one questions Kennedy's intent, nor how it was received, since his intent was clear. However, grammatically, taking the ambiguous and not grammatically correct route make the "urban legend" accurate. I always heard, from native German speakers, no less, that, technically, he was saying "jelly donut." NOT that it was taken that way. The most grammatically correct use is "Ich bin Berliner." However, the most grammatically correct use IS "I am a New Yorker" - so that comparison is completely invalid. A more proper comparison would be if a German came and said "I am THE New Yorker."
Pointing out that no one misunderstood him, is quite different from saying "this is completely false..." particularly when it ISN'T completely false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.154.3.201 ( talk) 20:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the above, that the "urban legend" is not false, but completely accurate. My mother is a native German speaker, and she laughed during the speech because of it. (She also happens to have a Master's degree in German, but she's told me that her friends also laughed about the phrase after the speech; they all considered it a funny error by the US President.) 96.50.106.54 ( talk) 01:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm from Germany. I personally think by the word "Berliner" first on a jelly doughnut, but there are regionally differences. "Berliner Pfannkuchen" has the short name "Berliner" in some german areas and "Pfannkuchen" in the area near of Berlin. There are also areas where we call it "Krapfen" or "Kreppel". To me it doesnt sound very different if someone says "Ich bin ein Heidelberger" or "Ich bin Heidelberger", I personally would prefer "Ich bin ein Heidelberger", but there might be also regional differences. JFKs sentence sounds to me absolutely correct. Its true, we find this double meaning funny, but we like him for the true meaning of this sentence, i.e "Im Herzen bin ich Berliner" (In my heart i am berliner). Martin, 19.03.2013.
WRONG. I speak to Germans all the time, and NONE of them are impressed by this urban myth. Without exception, they state that Kennedy said "I am (figuratively) from Berlin". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 ( talk) 13:56, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
Here is Martin again: As I told before there might be regional differences. But "Ich bin ein Heidelberger" ist 100% native German. See acutally the Link from Heidelberger Druck "Darum bin ich ein Heidelberger" https://www.heidelberg.com/global/de/company/career/why_i_am_a_heidelberger/why_i_m_a_heidelberger.jsp . They even use the "a" in the english translation! So JFK was correct. The fact, that "Berliner" is ambiguous (similar to "Hamburger") is another issue and has nothing to do with the discussion of using "a" or not using "a". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.240.197.77 ( talk) 14:31, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
silly rabbit ( talk) 11:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
That coin does not talk. The phrase "Ich bin ein Berliner" is simply declared on the coin next to Kennedy's effigy. Read your souces more carefully please. Alandeus ( talk) 09:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Is there still a debate on this? i gather it is understood now that Kennedy called himself a doughnut, and the point made above under "Not an urban legend" is poignant: if i say to an English speaker, "i am a Danish"* i will be taken for a visitor from slightly north of Germany, and naturally not for an iced pastry with apricot jelly in the middle. But the comparison is perfect, thus the grins on the faces of the crowd filmed during the speech. He could have spoken in Hamburg without disastrous effects and resulting debate, as a "hamburger" is just another pure American fiction (as are frankfurters, also a kind of comminuted retrieved-meat product). Still: nobody so far has been recorded entering a German baker's asking for a Kennedy - perhaps it's time.
...and with regard to "I agree with the urban legend section, but...", i must make this correction: a pfann(pfanne=pan)kuchen(=cake) is, as you see, a pancake and not a dough nut!
Joe Chop 'addendum': i see this debate is predicated on verifiable information/reliable sources etc. - may i point out that the only reliable source is the footage available; if you are not thoroughly conversant in German or think you must somehow defend a Nation's "honour" at any price then you are obfuscating the debate. Also: with regard to the New Yorker magazine comparison, it would be accurate to suppose the talker referred to themselves as The New Yorker -- And apologies to the Moderator, but in the summation box heading this debate, the first four points are either innacurate or ill informed. ..."infinitely unlikely" etc. i perceive as well, this is hardly edifying - the Future Of Debate looks grim.
... and i don't need to consult a dozen Berlin residents btw, i am (a!!) German. unsigned comment added by Joe Chop ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
... Eichhoff-schmeichoff: "If he says that Kennedy's phrase was correct, that should settle the matter..." is just more bulldozing, you won't convince any German speakers that's for sure;
@ ProhibitOnions: your comment regarding those with a smattering of German ironically applies to you, as i see you are from Newcastle -- and please check your spelling.[[Joe Chop]
I don't think it is being completely fair to say that it has NO basis in fact. The article admits that there is a pastry called a Berliner and it is known in many parts of Germany as that. The understanding of the German language and the Berlin dialect are what is wrong with the urban legend. Maybe I am being nit-picky, and I realize that myths have to be treated carefully, but a kernel of truth doesn't equal "no basis in fact" no matter how wrong something is.-- 66.153.117.118 ( talk) 18:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree here; the phrase "no basis in fact" suggests to me that the article is getting defensive of JFK. The article itself mentions that in stating one's place of origin it is typical to omit the indefinite article in German; is that not a basis in fact, even if the conclusion is incorrect? -- 146.201.154.162 ( talk) 05:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, the user who reverted the article after I removed the phrase cited as his reason "until myths become facts, it has no basis in fact." Such an argument is completely invalid; nearly all myths have some basis in fact. I believe such a statement is both a misunderstanding of what a myth is (and truly, this "urban legend" is not even a myth) and a misunderstanding of what a basis in fact is. To state that a story has no basis in fact is quite different from stating that it is untrue. I don't want to start an edit war here, but the article should not have been reverted.-- 146.201.154.162 ( talk) 05:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe the edit I just made created a more accurate phrasing; it is a fact that in parts of Germany there is a pastry called a Berliner, so the legend has a basis in some kind of fact, no matter how erroneously interpreted.-- SockEat ( talk) 03:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
actually saying "ich bin ein Berliner" sounds stronger in a speech than just saying "Ich bin Berliner", although it might be gramatically wrong. For the average german speaker this only adds the double meaning of doughnut/citizen from berlin, so unless you are higly educated in german language you would not waste your brainpower on thinking about what is correct, so there is no such urban legend in german speaking countrys. I sometimes joke about kennedy being a doughnut because were i come from these doughnut are called berliners, but if you walk into a bakery in berlin and ask for a "berliner", there is a good chance they have no idea what you are talking about, as they are called "pfannkuchen" here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.188.160.153 ( talk) 18:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
hm the debate seems now to be about whether Kennedy called himself a pancake or a doughnut; i would like to know what the Berliner call a pancake, because it's surely not Pfannkuchen! i'll probably hear some more krapfen on this. By the way, i think it rather immature for there to be a Big Pink Panel with a warning hand informing us of what to think, placed so as to catch the eye before reading on. i ask that this be removed in the interest of fairness and democracy; and i noticed how the fantastical claim of infinite unlikelihood has changed, moderated maybe, to one of extreme... Mkill, check your meaning *loools/points* "and yes, it's funny, but that does make the historical importance of these words any less">> Joe Chop ( talk) 11:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC) Joe Chop ( talk) 01:21, 1 June 2009 (UTC) Joe Chop
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.100.209 ( talk) 23:34, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I wonder how old the story is, and how it got started. If someone has access to old copies of the Reader's Digest, it should appear in one of the humor-in-real-life columns, possibly in the 1970's, or early 1980's. The way I remember it, the submitter claimed his/her parent was told the story by a tour bus operator in Berlin. SlowJog ( talk) 15:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
P.S. If anyone can find that entry in The R.D., I think she/he would also note that the tour guide said that the people who heard the speech took the meaning J.F.K. intended. They were caught up in the enthusiasm and emotion of the speech, and did not notice the mistake. SlowJog ( talk) 21:07, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
The "jelly donut" story makes not sense, that's correct. "Ich bin ein Berliner" could have been misunderstood as "I am a jelly-filled donut" - but only if during one the most emotional times in Berlin and one of the most important speeches (from a Berliner point of view) by the most powerful person in the world, talking about world politics for 90 minutes, someone was only thinking about something to eat... Well, in short: It makes no sense at all.
However, if the "Ich bin ein Kölsch" story by Bill Clinton is true, he did make a mistake: A "Kölsch" is only the beer, definitely not an inhabitant of Cologne, who is still called "ein Kölner" (or maybe "ein Kölsche Jung" or something like that) - but "ein Kölsch" can never be confused, especially in a bar. When the bar man doesn't react on "bring mir ein Kölsch" (bring me a beer!!!), he gets killed :-) Sorry, Bill... but I guess everyone was happy and laughed, and no-one felt offended by the mistake.
For my reputation, I am a native speaker of German and have lived here for all of my life. -- 62.54.12.70 ( talk) 17:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
————
In 1999, President Cliton was in Cologne. He wanted to say in German: "I am a Cologne". In German there are two variants: "Ich bin ein Kölner" (the standrad German variant) or "Ich bin ein kölsche Jung" (translate: I'am a boy from Colonge, this is normaly use by people from Cologne). But the President mixed both and said: "Ich bin ein Kölsch" (translate: I´m a Beer). [2] —Preceding unsigned comment moved here from article by Alandeus ( talk • contribs) 15:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Why? why is this comment in this article. Reagan's speech is not include, and so why has Obama. I like him, I just think that including it here is not needed. As a US President Reagan's speech had more connection to Kennedy's then does Obama's. To me this looks like propaganda. -- 68.231.54.78 ( talk) 09:12, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
While sometimes Wikipedia seems like SimpsonPedia, or USPresidentialCandidatePedia, it is not. Accordingly, I have moved these factoids from the article. Please make a case for their inclusion here. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 16:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
For example, in anticipation of a speech to be given by U.S. Democratic Presidential candidate Barack Obama in Berlin on July 24, 2008, a cartoonist on the website townhall.com depicted Obama saying "Ich bin ein beginner". [5]. The joke was repeated on Fox News by commentator Brit Hume. [6]
On The Simpsons, Grandpa said he knew "Kennedy's dark secret." In the subsequent flashback Kennedy is standing on the bow of the pt boat PT-109 during World War II and says "''Ich bin ein berliner''" after which Grandpa yells " Nazi!" and pushes him overboard.
I am of the opinion that these do not belong in the article; these are the kinds of things you see in lists of miscellaneous information at the ends of articles that aren't particularly good. It is not the aim of wikipedia to make reference to every joke included in the Simpsons, nor to include every detail of what happens to be the current presidential campaign in the United States.-- 66.32.247.67 ( talk) 06:51, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
An anon IP recently changed a quoted passage in the text. I have verified that the original statement was correct (prior to the change). Here is a google books link to a snippet containing the quote in question. siℓℓy rabbit ( talk) 21:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Why not link to the text at Wikiquote [5] instead of some other source? -- JensMueller ( talk) 20:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
This text is given as a quotation:
But the corresponding reference doesn't contain this exact quote at all. So where did it come from? It's all over the internet, but that seems to be because people are taking it from this page. Can anyone say where this pair of sentences originally came from? Lfh ( talk) 11:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Everyone keeps attacking the people who bring up whether the term Kennedy used is an urban legend, or it isn't. The problem is is that it is NO legend! Does anyone who dismisses new arguments actually speak German? President Kennedy said "I am a Berliner," although he did also say that he was a doughnut. Absurb, but correct. To imply that the speculation is a legend is to say that the sun and the moon and the earth are all urban legends.
All terms on the page referring to an "urban legend" should be replaced with something to the effect of "speculation" or "controversies." Change the term and all this will go away. Too much effort has been put into fending off discussion about the term when all of it could be avoided by a clarification of the flexible term. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 02:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Quote "Does anyone [...] speak German?" Answer: there are dozens of Germans who have bookmarked this page and you will find that during the lengthy discussions above ALL of them agreed that the "jelly doughnut" interpretation is untrue. In other word: there is no controversy among native speakers. There is even no speculation that the legend started in the English-speaking world as the legend is largely unknown in German-speaking countries. No need to give that Urban Legend a chance to come out different than what it is so obviously. Guidod ( talk) 20:37, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
For what it's worth: Snopes.com, the expert website, recently put out a piece on this: http://www.snopes.com/language/misxlate/berliner.asp. Alandeus ( talk) 14:31, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
I will remove all language from this article referring to an "urban legend" of the President's choice of words if there is no resolution by Tuesday 15 Decemeber 2009 12:00 PM PST. Here is the question (please respond "Aye", "No" or "Not Voting"):
Shall the "urban legend" language in this article remain in place ? GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 02:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
YES. It is indeed an urban legend. There is an article about this on the Urban Legends Reference Pages. The previous post makes no sense. Reywas92 Talk 02:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
YES. While it is NOT a normal legend, it is nevertheless an URBAN legend. Alandeus ( talk) 07:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
YES. See above. And Wikipedia is full of native speakers of German like me, including some who live in Berlin and many from outside. If this article was as wrong as you suggest someone would have noticed by now. Hans Adler 17:14, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
NO. See section 17. Anyway, I appreciate the democratic process. However, the jihad-like effort to keep gray area language in this article is disturbing. The biggest point I wanted to make is it's not what the President's point was, but what he literally said. GnarlyLikeWhoa ( talk) 17:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
KEEP, see above, clearly an Urban Legend, greetings from Berlin. Guidod ( talk) 20:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Hi, the lede is too long compared to the rest of the article, and needs to be balanced to accurately summarise the article as a whole. I will add this to my long list of things to look at that never seem to get done. Brilliantine ( talk) 01:07, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Of course Kennedy said he was a doughnut. It is the height of Wikipedia arrogance to think they know more than all the media outlets mentioned (citation not needed) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.105.26 ( talk) 21:18, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
So, this controversy is interesting. I am a German speaker, and have lived in Germany, though not in Berlin. If I were to say "I am a citizen of Berlin", I would indeed say "Ich bin Berliner". "Ich bin ein Berliner" is not the way to convey that information -- ein Berliner, ein Frankfurter, ein Hamburger - these are all food items. It is true that the Berliners assembled for the speech immediately knew what Kennedy was saying - essentially that he supported West Berlin as an outpost of democracy surrounded by the communist East Germany. It was a profound political statement. Nonetheless, it was also funny - therefore probably the perfect political statement. There seems to be a "truthiness" contingent about German grammar in this discussion seemingly based on egotism, jingoism and who has the most time to waste posting to this article - which is why Wikipedia will remain a "mental masturbation" site, and never really an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ManyFireflies ( talk • contribs) 20:37, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
The sound file in this article is interrupted at exactly 4:00 minutes with a voice that is distinctly not Kennedy's (then the speech resumes). Has this sound file been "doctored"? The voice is very similar to that of Goebbels. What's up with that? Dr. Dan ( talk) 04:29, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Sorry but the context was wrong; Kennedy should have said "Ich komme aus Berlin" because "Ich bin ein Berliner" is just not how any Germans would have said! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.131.100.216 ( talk) 08:00, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
Part of that text is incorrect :
It's worth recalling, again, President John F. Kennedy's use of a German phrase while standing before the Berlin Wall. It would be great, his wordsmiths thought, for him to declare himself a symbolic citizen of Berlin. Hence, Ich bin ein Berliner. What they did not know, but could easily have found out, was that such citizens never refer to themselves as "Berliners." They reserve that term for a favorite confection often munched at breakfast. So, while they understood and appreciated the sentiments behind the President's impassioned declaration, the residents tittered among themselves when he exclaimed, literally, "I am a jelly-filled doughnut."[5]
Of course Berliners do refer to themself as Berliners, when they are asked where they are from, they say Ich bin Berliner and when someone asks them, if they are from somewhere else, they say, nein, ich bin ein Berliner. In other words to emphesise identification with Berliners one would say Ich bin e i n Berliner, could also say Ich bin a u c h e i n Berliner, I am also a Berliner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.185.229.198 ( talk • contribs)
+ 1 - it is common to refer to the inhabitants of Berlin as "Berliners" - this urban myth is quite funny, but it is nonsense. In German both sentences "Ich bin Berliner" or "Ich bin ein Berliner" are correctly understood - the second one is a kind of slang, the first one is the "Hochsprache", official German. Obviously Kennedy was not well advised to use this kind of slang. I have never heared of this misconception in about fourty years of reading newspapers and looking television - this quotation is still very popular and important for the history of Berlin - this urban myth must have spread years after the event only in the english-speaking press (will be interesting to look for the first source for it) Plehn ( talk) 20:01, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
That the Berliner Pfannkuche would be called simply a Pfannkuche in Berlin is not yet verified by the sources, and is actually belied by this reference, which is much more reliable than this website, and says, "to those who live in Berlin, the phrase 'ein Berliner' means a kind of jelly donut." So, I'm sorry, but I am going to revert this edit]--I'm sure, though, that you can more easily find a better source than I can, and I welcome a revert, but with a better source than that website. Thanks, Drmies ( talk) 23:54, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
In addition to the source cited by Hans Adler, here is some more evidence for the so far undisputed fact that Berliners say 'Pfannkuchen' for what is known as 'Berliner' (and several other names) in other areas of Germany. This is just to appease the doubters - I think it would look rather ridiculous to put sources next to a sentence stating an obvious fact, but I concede it's a matter of taste. At the bottom, there's also some Dutch sources, including one from de Volkskrant, I hope Drmies can accept it as "reliable". :) Here we go:
And here are some results in Dutch, especially for Drmies. ;)
-- kate theobaldy ( talk) 20:08, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
In the more than two weeks that have passed since I posted the above list, Drmies made numerous edits elsewhere. I take it that s/he has either forgotten about it, or, more probably, is no longer arguing against the notion that "Berliner" are simply called "Pfannkuchen" in Berlin. I therefore suggest we consider the case closed. --11:18, 1 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kate theobaldy ( talk • contribs)
I am from Germany and it is true that in Berlin, they say "Pfannkuchen" and not "Berliner". In the article it still says "known in Berlin as a "Berliner"", which is clearly wrong. Even one of the links cited there confirms the Pfannkuchen: "Diese Urban Legend ist schon alleine weil Berliner »Pfannkuchen« zu eben dieser süßen Speise sagen ziemlicher Unsinn [...]" (translated: "This urban legend is pretty absurd not only because people from Berlin call this sweet dish "Pfannkuchen""). -- 94.222.140.130 ( talk) 19:06, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Let us now hear the verdict from on high:
"Kennedy did not say 'I am a donut'. Period."
So much for "anyone can edit" on Wikipedia! What a joke. Some administrator gives their verdict, "PERIOD," and after that no further debate is allowed. My junior high school German teacher, who was a native of Germany, is the person I first heard the jelly doughnut story from, so no, it is not merely a non-German invention. But I guess it's pointless to discuss it on this authoritarian website. Troglo ( talk) 23:26, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
For anyone *still* not convinced, there is a very nice video explaining the myth on YouTube, featuring an excerpt of the Kennedy speech and a real Berliner Pfannkuchen: How edible was JFK? Hans Adler 08:54, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
By the way, nobody puts jelly in doughnuts, it's JAM, as in jam doughnut. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.208.211.202 ( talk) 23:15, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
"jelly" is not more common - only in the US. There is an entire English speaking world out there. Although some may call it jelly, they are incorrect to do so. It is jam. Jam can indeed be "smooth style" i.e. not containing large pieces of fruit and is indeed often contained in doughnuts. Jam Doughnut is the correct term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.65.56.82 ( talk) 13:15, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
It is not "more common". The fact that many in the US use the incorrect word is irrelevant. What the doughnut contains is in fact JAM. This is an inescapable fact. You cannot just "declare" jelly to be in more common usage, which in any case is irrelevant. The correct word is Jam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.227.184 ( talk • contribs)
Who elected you jelly furher? Jelly IS NOT MORE COMMON! It may be to YOU, and a number of others, but you are all wrong. There is an whole world outside the US. Many people speak English. To the overwhelming majority JAM is the correct term. Neither you nor the US are the centre of the universe. Any reverts will be treated as vandalism. 178.208.196.33
AGAIN, the origin of the myth is irrelevant. The word in common useage in the English language for the foodstuff concerned is undoubtedly JAM. Jelly is an entirely different substance. Any reverts will be treated as vandalism. Stop being so US-centric. Stop dictating to others. 178.208.196.33
If somebody in germany says "I am a Berliner" (Ich bin ein Berliner) nobody thinks of a doughnut. So it is clear in germany nobody laughed when he said "Ich bin ein Berliner."
This joke is a completely american invention. Is is not known in Germany.
Jms (
talk)
15:50, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
There are differences between German as spoken in Berlin, and elsewhere. Do we have a comment from a well-educated Berliner, that should put an end to the matter? Royalcourtier ( talk) 20:04, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
i was stationed in Mannheim in USArmy 1983 and the tall German woman who taught us the rudiments of the german language said that due to the New England accent the Berliner sounded like the term for a Ba-lin-a a type of jelly donut,. But due to the gravity of the situation, and the German people's warm reception of people trying to pronouce correctly, even if not perfect from foreigners 2600:6C4E:97F:F65E:1464:E66C:AA32:15CE ( talk) 22:07, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
I've removed the following text from the article:
The origin of the misconception is obscure. An early sighting occurred in volume 55 of Management Review (1966):
John F. Kennedy's famous words "Ich bin ein Berliner" created confused reactions among his German audience. What he meant, of course, was "I am a citizen of Berlin". What he actually said came closer to "I am a doughnut". Because the translation followed the English construction word for word, it included the article "ein" for "a". "Ein berliner," in German, is a type of cruller - a flat doughnut. [7]
The editor has been misled by the way Google Books dates periodicals: it dates the entire series based on the date of the first issue. In fact, it is apparent that this issue of Management Review is from the mid-to-late 1980s -- probably mid 1986, based on an advertisement for a conference in June of that year, which can easily be found by searching for the string "1986" within the volume.. Grover cleveland ( talk) 08:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't want to comment on whether Kennedy make a grammatical error in German or not, but the tone of the article as a whole is POV. To say that the "speech is considered one of Kennedy's best, both a notable moment of the Cold War and a high point of the New Frontier" is unreferenced confused and unencyclopaedic. A speech may be at a "notable moment", and a high point of the "New Frontier". That may make a speech important, but does not make it better or the best. To say that it was "a great morale boost for West Berliners" is simply unreferenced opinion. Unless these opinions can be adequately supported by credible references, they should be deleted. 125.237.105.102 ( talk) 03:51, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Just a brief comment about the final sentence in the introduction. "To Germans his words were received with sincerity, very endearing and very uniquely American!" Clearly this is not an objective POV, especially with no citation or reference. Both uses of the word "very" are meaningless and unnecessary. Finally, An exclamation point has no place outside of a quote in a Wikipedia article. Dkelber ( talk) 14:06, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
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The following ended the lead 'graph: "The quotation was just short of five months before Kennedy was assassinated later that same year." Presumably, this is accurate, but no relevance to the topic is cited. There may be a place for relating this juxtaposition, most obviously in his bio. If there is significant delusion about a causal connection, that might be at least a dubious reason for its inclusion. In the context where i removed it, it must be treated as a bizarre tangent, and some editors might well take on the periodic checking for its reintroduction without a substantial consensus on a specific valuable purpose it could serve.
The article presently has The myth entered the German Wikipedia article "Ich bin Berliner" in May 2005 brought over from the English version where it had been discussed since the creation of the article in October 2001. It was already marked as an urban legend at the time in 2005. The German version settled on a section title "misconception in the english-speaking world" (Missverständnis im englischsprachigen Raum) by January 2007.
with both of these sentences being cited with permalinks to the German Wikipedia. This is a use of
WP:PRIMARY sources, and while
WP:CIRCULAR allows citation of Wikipedia to discuss Wikipedia, it also notes Wikipedia or the sister project is a
primary source in this case and may be used following the
policy for primary sources. Any such use should avoid
original research,
undue emphasis on Wikipedia's role or views, and
inappropriate self-reference. The article text should clarify how the material is sourced from Wikipedia to inform the reader about the potential bias.
As such, this article would benefit from a
WP:SECONDARY source to show that this isn't undue, to properly contexualize it, etc. I have not deleted anything, just requested there be an additional reference other than Wikipedia itself, but this whole paragraph seems to be
WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH and full of
WP:SYNTHESIS.
Umimmak (
talk)
17:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I may be overlooking something but it appears that one part of the article says 150,000 people were in attendance, and in another, 450,000 - start of paragraph 4 in introduction, and first paragraph of Delivery section. Of if these numbers refer to different groups rather than different estimates, perhaps that could be clarified? Rosie Willis ( talk) 00:31, 2 June 2023 (UTC)