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I appreciate the description of how to use ice axe loops on backpacks, but I'm still not sure I follow the procedure. Is is possible for someone to add photos of how to use the loops? I can't find any photographs on the Internet illustrating the final positioning of the ice axe in the loops.
I realize this is not a how-to article, but a single photo might help in clarification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.2.233.107 ( talk) 20:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a photo, but it is very simple. You slip the ice axe shaft through the loop at or near the bottom of the backpack, and let it dangle down. Then, you rotate the shaft of the axe 180 degrees away from the backpack and upward. You then tie or buckle a loop of light rope or webbing around the shaft higher on the pack to hold it secure. Jim Heaphy ( talk) 02:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I've added a picture of this to the page. Ericoides ( talk) 19:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
It's a shame all that's talked about is a couple of murders. It would be nice if there are some examples of reasonably well known climbers having avoided or lessened injury due to their ice axes. 131.111.245.195 ( talk) 01:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Successful self-arrest using an ice axe is "routine" for those who climb in the appropriate conditions, and therefore not really noteworthy. That being said, I have rewritten this section for the following reasons: Reading the references on the two murders makes it clear, by photographs, that these were mountaineering ice axes, not the ice picks supposedly favored by Mafia hit men. USA Today, like many earlier sources, erroneously called the Trotsky murder weapon an "ice pick" but it wasn't a domestic ice pick at all. "Pick" does refer to the sharp pointed part of a mountaineering ice axe, but the complete tool itself is called an ice axe. Secondly, the article could stand a genuine history section, about the evolution of the tool in mountaineering, which I hope to write in the weeks to come. In the mean time, I have renamed this section to make it clear that it is about use of ice axes as weapons, rather than a history of the mountaineering ice axe. If anyone wonders why there would have been a mountaineer's ice axe in Mexico City in 1940, please be aware that there are three enormous snow covered volcanoes in Central Mexico that have a certain appeal to mountaineers. Jim Heaphy ( talk) 02:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Mexican volcanoes climbed using an ice axe: Popocatépetl, Iztaccíhuatl, and Pico de Orizaba. Jim Heaphy ( talk) 02:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the opening says that basic axes are not suitable for use in belaying and are aimed at beginner or casual users, which I'm not sure is correct. My understanding is that the main difference is that technical axes are strong enough to support body weight with the pick in good ice, while basic axes are not. But that doesn't mean a basic axe is only for beginners, in fact on climbs with no vertical ice a basic axe would likely be better suited, since with a longer shaft than a technical axe it is better suited to help the climber maintain her balance. From what I've learned a basic axe can easily function as a deadman anchor for crevasse rescue, and hence I think saying that a basic axe is not suitable for belaying is misleading. Liamwillco ( talk) 23:43, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd only heard of them referred to as walking axes until now. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 17:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
An editor just added the underlined text, and similar language later in the article. I see that in the case of a recent murder in England, the weapon was referred to as an ice axe. [1] [2] In which parts of the English-speaking world is it called an "ice pick"? Will Beback talk 09:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
I am over thirty years old and, although I am not an expert nor a climber, I have seldom heard this tool referred to by experts and non-experts alike, as an ice axe. That's not to say it isn't referred to as such. However, it is also referred to as an ice pick. Perhaps you both should have discussed it before you made the reverts, AND perhaps informed me of the debate.
Here are some links to people who use the term ice pick, some of which also use the word axe.
I'd be willing to bet the decoration referred to in the last link isn't merely the tip or head of the tool proper, but the whole tool, as a whole.
Now I'm sure there are many more examples. But I believe the generic name (in some places outside the USA certainly) is ice pick. I also believe it is probably more of a laymans' term, but popular enough to include in this article. The experts' name might well be ice ax(e). I don't know if this is a recent adoption or from the early days of mountaineering.
Also, this think about what Trotsky was killed by - I don't believe it was an error at all. It's just the name by which the tool had been generically known back in the day.
I am also not sure about how many different locations throughout the world use the term ice pick, as opposed to an exclusive usage of the term ice axe (or ax) to refer to the whole tool. So I could very well be wrong about it being American English.
Additionally, I found a dictionary definition (thanks to another Wikipedia article)which would seem to clarify the issue. To that end, as I see the article has been reverted again, I will put it back the way I'd left it.
noun 1 a small pick used by climbers to traverse ice-covered slopes.
Source: http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0397520 -- 81.131.130.116 ( talk) 05:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
One problem remains with my edit, I think: whether or not "pick ax(e)" is an American English variation. I have no problems with anyone adjusting the wording of course, if my edit turns out to be inaccurate in that regard. -- 81.131.130.116 ( talk) 05:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
I've been accused of not being "neutral". I'd like this explained before any more reverts take place. This is ridiculous - all this fuss about a simple, verifiable, edit!
Now I'm happy to cooperate if there is deemed to be a probem with the words I have used, or phrasing. But do take the time to explain before just wiping out work others have done. -- 81.131.130.116 ( talk) 05:49, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
The IP editor who has been editing the article has not furnished any references from reliable sources that make any distinction between American English and any other dialects of English with regards to ice axe terminology. However, I want to avoid an edit war, so I will refrain from editing this article for at least 24 hours before making any further changes. I respectfully request that the IP editor provide genuine, solid reliable sources for his claim that this entire item (as opposed to the tip of the tool) is called an "ice pick" by people with mountaineering expertise. Thank you. Cullen328 ( talk) 06:23, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Is it known why Mercader had an ice axe as opposed to a pick? I do wonder if the confusion about the tool is one of Spanish-English translation. The Trotsky article quotes Mercader's trial testimony as: "I laid my raincoat on the table in such a way as to be able to remove the ice axe which was in the pocket." I don't know any any mountaineering axe that would fit in a pocket. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.170.233 ( talk) 18:21, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
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Does the article really need this trivia section. Isn't it strictly speaking off-topic. Rwood128 ( talk) 11:17, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ice axe article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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![]() | Text and/or other creative content from Ice axe was copied or moved into Alpenstock with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
I appreciate the description of how to use ice axe loops on backpacks, but I'm still not sure I follow the procedure. Is is possible for someone to add photos of how to use the loops? I can't find any photographs on the Internet illustrating the final positioning of the ice axe in the loops.
I realize this is not a how-to article, but a single photo might help in clarification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.2.233.107 ( talk) 20:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a photo, but it is very simple. You slip the ice axe shaft through the loop at or near the bottom of the backpack, and let it dangle down. Then, you rotate the shaft of the axe 180 degrees away from the backpack and upward. You then tie or buckle a loop of light rope or webbing around the shaft higher on the pack to hold it secure. Jim Heaphy ( talk) 02:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I've added a picture of this to the page. Ericoides ( talk) 19:57, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
It's a shame all that's talked about is a couple of murders. It would be nice if there are some examples of reasonably well known climbers having avoided or lessened injury due to their ice axes. 131.111.245.195 ( talk) 01:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Successful self-arrest using an ice axe is "routine" for those who climb in the appropriate conditions, and therefore not really noteworthy. That being said, I have rewritten this section for the following reasons: Reading the references on the two murders makes it clear, by photographs, that these were mountaineering ice axes, not the ice picks supposedly favored by Mafia hit men. USA Today, like many earlier sources, erroneously called the Trotsky murder weapon an "ice pick" but it wasn't a domestic ice pick at all. "Pick" does refer to the sharp pointed part of a mountaineering ice axe, but the complete tool itself is called an ice axe. Secondly, the article could stand a genuine history section, about the evolution of the tool in mountaineering, which I hope to write in the weeks to come. In the mean time, I have renamed this section to make it clear that it is about use of ice axes as weapons, rather than a history of the mountaineering ice axe. If anyone wonders why there would have been a mountaineer's ice axe in Mexico City in 1940, please be aware that there are three enormous snow covered volcanoes in Central Mexico that have a certain appeal to mountaineers. Jim Heaphy ( talk) 02:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Mexican volcanoes climbed using an ice axe: Popocatépetl, Iztaccíhuatl, and Pico de Orizaba. Jim Heaphy ( talk) 02:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the opening says that basic axes are not suitable for use in belaying and are aimed at beginner or casual users, which I'm not sure is correct. My understanding is that the main difference is that technical axes are strong enough to support body weight with the pick in good ice, while basic axes are not. But that doesn't mean a basic axe is only for beginners, in fact on climbs with no vertical ice a basic axe would likely be better suited, since with a longer shaft than a technical axe it is better suited to help the climber maintain her balance. From what I've learned a basic axe can easily function as a deadman anchor for crevasse rescue, and hence I think saying that a basic axe is not suitable for belaying is misleading. Liamwillco ( talk) 23:43, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd only heard of them referred to as walking axes until now. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 17:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
An editor just added the underlined text, and similar language later in the article. I see that in the case of a recent murder in England, the weapon was referred to as an ice axe. [1] [2] In which parts of the English-speaking world is it called an "ice pick"? Will Beback talk 09:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
I am over thirty years old and, although I am not an expert nor a climber, I have seldom heard this tool referred to by experts and non-experts alike, as an ice axe. That's not to say it isn't referred to as such. However, it is also referred to as an ice pick. Perhaps you both should have discussed it before you made the reverts, AND perhaps informed me of the debate.
Here are some links to people who use the term ice pick, some of which also use the word axe.
I'd be willing to bet the decoration referred to in the last link isn't merely the tip or head of the tool proper, but the whole tool, as a whole.
Now I'm sure there are many more examples. But I believe the generic name (in some places outside the USA certainly) is ice pick. I also believe it is probably more of a laymans' term, but popular enough to include in this article. The experts' name might well be ice ax(e). I don't know if this is a recent adoption or from the early days of mountaineering.
Also, this think about what Trotsky was killed by - I don't believe it was an error at all. It's just the name by which the tool had been generically known back in the day.
I am also not sure about how many different locations throughout the world use the term ice pick, as opposed to an exclusive usage of the term ice axe (or ax) to refer to the whole tool. So I could very well be wrong about it being American English.
Additionally, I found a dictionary definition (thanks to another Wikipedia article)which would seem to clarify the issue. To that end, as I see the article has been reverted again, I will put it back the way I'd left it.
noun 1 a small pick used by climbers to traverse ice-covered slopes.
Source: http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0397520 -- 81.131.130.116 ( talk) 05:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
One problem remains with my edit, I think: whether or not "pick ax(e)" is an American English variation. I have no problems with anyone adjusting the wording of course, if my edit turns out to be inaccurate in that regard. -- 81.131.130.116 ( talk) 05:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
I've been accused of not being "neutral". I'd like this explained before any more reverts take place. This is ridiculous - all this fuss about a simple, verifiable, edit!
Now I'm happy to cooperate if there is deemed to be a probem with the words I have used, or phrasing. But do take the time to explain before just wiping out work others have done. -- 81.131.130.116 ( talk) 05:49, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
The IP editor who has been editing the article has not furnished any references from reliable sources that make any distinction between American English and any other dialects of English with regards to ice axe terminology. However, I want to avoid an edit war, so I will refrain from editing this article for at least 24 hours before making any further changes. I respectfully request that the IP editor provide genuine, solid reliable sources for his claim that this entire item (as opposed to the tip of the tool) is called an "ice pick" by people with mountaineering expertise. Thank you. Cullen328 ( talk) 06:23, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
Is it known why Mercader had an ice axe as opposed to a pick? I do wonder if the confusion about the tool is one of Spanish-English translation. The Trotsky article quotes Mercader's trial testimony as: "I laid my raincoat on the table in such a way as to be able to remove the ice axe which was in the pocket." I don't know any any mountaineering axe that would fit in a pocket. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.170.233 ( talk) 18:21, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
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Does the article really need this trivia section. Isn't it strictly speaking off-topic. Rwood128 ( talk) 11:17, 20 March 2020 (UTC)