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First of this article should be retitled "Shooting of Ibragim Todashev" or "Death of..." in line with standard wiki practice as he is not notable aside from this shooting. -- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 03:51, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I was thinking of precedents such as Shooting of Trayvon Martin or Death of Caylee Anthony - when the person is non-notable but the incident of their killing is. We do not know at this point what his connection to the Waltham murders was, if he was connected to them at all.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 18:19, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
This is the relevant WP Wikipedia:Notable_people#Crime_victims_and_perpetrators-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 00:03, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Slate has a photo of Tsarnaev that is described as "courtesy of the Orange County Corrections Department". Can we import that into Commons and use it? – Herzen ( talk) 04:46, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't have a strong view on this, at this point. But it is not completely clear that this article should be in the cat (as it is now) "Unarmed people shot by police", as it is not clear that he was unarmed. Unarmed means "lacking weapons". But it appears that the earliest and the latest reports were that he was armed with (and using as a weapon) a pole or table or something else using them as a weapon. Some reports, in the middle, do suggest that he may have been unarmed, and that of course is the accusation by some connected to the decedent. Epeefleche ( talk) 18:06, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above proved inconclusive, but then a user summarily removed the relevant category from the article anyway in this edit. An article from yesterday notes that "Last week, FBI sources said Todashev was unarmed when he was shot and killed by an FBI agent". The preponderance of reports seems indeed to indicate that Todashev was unarmed. After the FBI started saying he was unarmed, only one report came out to the contrary—the NY Times report indirectly quoting one unnamed official saying that Todashev had a metal pipe or a broomstick. No one else picked up or confirmed that version. So I think the category "Unarmed people shot by police" should be put back in the article. Any objections? – Herzen ( talk) 19:19, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
It still lacks more details of his life (the section that was hilariously misnamed "background"), especially about his MMA career, his training with Tamerlan, the parking lot fight & arrest incident, what exactly was he studying, etc. -- Niemti ( talk) 11:06, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
And the next section needs any info about his MMA training relations with the bombing suspect, prior questionings, him canceling a flight to Chechnya as requested by the FBI, his friends talking about his "bad feelings about it", etc. -- Niemti ( talk) 07:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
There were also lots of conflicting accounts ( "It is difficult to understand how, having shot the man dead, the multiple law enforcement personnel on scene could've gotten the details wrong. Discrepancies can creep into an account of a stressful situation. But how can there possibly be confusion about whether the suspect was a) wielding a knife, per the original story; b) unarmed, per subsequent versions; c) or lunging with or toward a samurai sword? We're supposed to believe that multiple law enforcement personnel went to a man's apartment, confirmed via his own confession that he participated in a triple murder with an alleged terrorist, and still left him within reach of a samurai sword? And that, after he lunged toward one agent with the sword, or else lunged toward the sword, or an officer's gun, or something, there was so much confusion that it was reported for days that the suspect attacked with a knife?" That's even before pole/broomstick.) -- Niemti ( talk) 09:21, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I see at this article that the incident concerning this man is considered one of the most important news stories of the past month on a popular web site. The article is written by a professional historian and published author, so it may be worth citing? -- 24.112.187.219 ( talk) 20:27, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Anyone knows the Russian original version? I think he might really say, or at least imply, "bandit formations"/"bandit underground" (Russianspeak for insurgents). -- Niemti ( talk) 07:57, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Reuters pretty much confirms it: "He said he gave his permission when his son asked to stay in the United States because he said it was safer than Chechnya, where separatists waged two wars with Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and militants still fight for an Islamic state." [1] Now I guess but he might have been an official of Zavgayev and flee to Russia only after the first war and still be afraid even circa 2008/9. -- Niemti ( talk) 08:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
"agent’s troubled past does not change his 2014 finding that the homicide was justified" https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/09/03/florida-prosecutor-says-fbi-agent-troubled-past-doesn-change-shooting-findings/mOoDvlnA72CD3dX0Frb3NO/story.html
The FBI agent in question "retired from the Oakland police in 2004 at age 31 on a tax-free disability pension that now exceeds $52,000 a year for life." Despite being disabled, he was still courageously putting himself in situations that could have led to physical conflict, such as being attacked with a plastic broom. 2601:600:8500:B2D9:612B:3A31:E262:B037 ( talk) 00:25, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ibragim Todashev article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
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This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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First of this article should be retitled "Shooting of Ibragim Todashev" or "Death of..." in line with standard wiki practice as he is not notable aside from this shooting. -- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 03:51, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I was thinking of precedents such as Shooting of Trayvon Martin or Death of Caylee Anthony - when the person is non-notable but the incident of their killing is. We do not know at this point what his connection to the Waltham murders was, if he was connected to them at all.-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 18:19, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
This is the relevant WP Wikipedia:Notable_people#Crime_victims_and_perpetrators-- Bellerophon5685 ( talk) 00:03, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Slate has a photo of Tsarnaev that is described as "courtesy of the Orange County Corrections Department". Can we import that into Commons and use it? – Herzen ( talk) 04:46, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't have a strong view on this, at this point. But it is not completely clear that this article should be in the cat (as it is now) "Unarmed people shot by police", as it is not clear that he was unarmed. Unarmed means "lacking weapons". But it appears that the earliest and the latest reports were that he was armed with (and using as a weapon) a pole or table or something else using them as a weapon. Some reports, in the middle, do suggest that he may have been unarmed, and that of course is the accusation by some connected to the decedent. Epeefleche ( talk) 18:06, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above proved inconclusive, but then a user summarily removed the relevant category from the article anyway in this edit. An article from yesterday notes that "Last week, FBI sources said Todashev was unarmed when he was shot and killed by an FBI agent". The preponderance of reports seems indeed to indicate that Todashev was unarmed. After the FBI started saying he was unarmed, only one report came out to the contrary—the NY Times report indirectly quoting one unnamed official saying that Todashev had a metal pipe or a broomstick. No one else picked up or confirmed that version. So I think the category "Unarmed people shot by police" should be put back in the article. Any objections? – Herzen ( talk) 19:19, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
It still lacks more details of his life (the section that was hilariously misnamed "background"), especially about his MMA career, his training with Tamerlan, the parking lot fight & arrest incident, what exactly was he studying, etc. -- Niemti ( talk) 11:06, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
And the next section needs any info about his MMA training relations with the bombing suspect, prior questionings, him canceling a flight to Chechnya as requested by the FBI, his friends talking about his "bad feelings about it", etc. -- Niemti ( talk) 07:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
There were also lots of conflicting accounts ( "It is difficult to understand how, having shot the man dead, the multiple law enforcement personnel on scene could've gotten the details wrong. Discrepancies can creep into an account of a stressful situation. But how can there possibly be confusion about whether the suspect was a) wielding a knife, per the original story; b) unarmed, per subsequent versions; c) or lunging with or toward a samurai sword? We're supposed to believe that multiple law enforcement personnel went to a man's apartment, confirmed via his own confession that he participated in a triple murder with an alleged terrorist, and still left him within reach of a samurai sword? And that, after he lunged toward one agent with the sword, or else lunged toward the sword, or an officer's gun, or something, there was so much confusion that it was reported for days that the suspect attacked with a knife?" That's even before pole/broomstick.) -- Niemti ( talk) 09:21, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I see at this article that the incident concerning this man is considered one of the most important news stories of the past month on a popular web site. The article is written by a professional historian and published author, so it may be worth citing? -- 24.112.187.219 ( talk) 20:27, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Anyone knows the Russian original version? I think he might really say, or at least imply, "bandit formations"/"bandit underground" (Russianspeak for insurgents). -- Niemti ( talk) 07:57, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Reuters pretty much confirms it: "He said he gave his permission when his son asked to stay in the United States because he said it was safer than Chechnya, where separatists waged two wars with Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and militants still fight for an Islamic state." [1] Now I guess but he might have been an official of Zavgayev and flee to Russia only after the first war and still be afraid even circa 2008/9. -- Niemti ( talk) 08:41, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
"agent’s troubled past does not change his 2014 finding that the homicide was justified" https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/09/03/florida-prosecutor-says-fbi-agent-troubled-past-doesn-change-shooting-findings/mOoDvlnA72CD3dX0Frb3NO/story.html
The FBI agent in question "retired from the Oakland police in 2004 at age 31 on a tax-free disability pension that now exceeds $52,000 a year for life." Despite being disabled, he was still courageously putting himself in situations that could have led to physical conflict, such as being attacked with a plastic broom. 2601:600:8500:B2D9:612B:3A31:E262:B037 ( talk) 00:25, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 14:51, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
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