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I have seen material on the internet that purports to identify Ibn Warraq by name. In my opinion it would be very wrong to put his name into the Wikipedia (even if this particular attempt to identify him is fallacious). DKleinecke 21:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The quote needs to cite its source. -- Reuben 16:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Can the source be his book (Why I am not a Muslim?)? Anyon that owns it (unfortunately I don`t) could verify if it is. PMLF 01:32, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
The quote is from a radio show called The Religion Report, which I added to the external links. It still needs cleaned up though, the quote leaves a bit in the middle out with notice. JayMehaffey 22:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I've heard that Ibn Warraq means "son of the scribe"? Is this true? If so, it might be worth mentioning in the article. Andjam 04:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Zora, why are you removing reference to a exsting article?
Further, Ibn Warraq is a "self proclaimed" ex-Muslim, since his identity is secret. There is no evidence of him ever being a Muslim. You know that some people love to call themself that, sometimes witout even knowing basic Islamic prinicples. -- Striver 10:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
People may wish to peruse Wikipedia:No original research Andjam 09:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd say that Ibn Warrag qualifies as a "popular" scholar, like Karen Armstrong. He has had university training (he studied under Watt) but he is not an academic. He collects and comments on academic papers for a non-academic audience. Does an OK job of it, too. I've got a shelf of scholarly books on Islam and I have a number of his books too. This is scholarly work. Academics don't cite him, but I've never read any criticism either. I don't regard anonymity as a minus; he has good reason to be afraid. He still has family in Pakistan, and they'd be at risk if it were known that a relative was an apostate. Not a comment on Islam in general, just on Pakistan. I'm starting to have a feeling that YOU don't like him, BalancingAct, and that you're looking for reasons to criticize him. Zora 11:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Why I am not a Muslim is a polemic work. If that were all he had published, I wouldn't call him a scholar. However, I have found his collections of scholarly articles, The Origins of the Koran, What the Koran Really Says, and The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, to be useful points of entry into the academic discourse. If you haven't read those books, then your critique is based on a misapprehension. Zora 23:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The fact that Why I am not a Muslim is a polemic work doesn't excuse it from minimum standards of scholarly professionalism, nor should it have no effect on its author's standing and reputation. BalancingAct 21:21, 29 January 2005
Although this discussion is more than two years old, I thought that I should add that Ibn Warraq said in Why I am Not a Muslim in the first sentence of the acknowledgements, "I am not a scholar or a specialist." That should end the discussion. The link above from the Muslim site is extremely biased and hypocritical. To say that Warraq does not cite sources is absolute slander. His references run to fifteen pages in Why I am not a Muslim.
Epa101 (
talk)
21:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
An interesting point: "Ibn Warraq", whoever he/she is, is often being quoted when referring to the "Institute for the Secularisation of the Islamic Society" (ISIS), a web site that purportedly advocates for the "freedom of conscience and religion", whatever is meant by that. The site is mentionned in the link section of this wikipedia article on "Ibn Warraq". That "ISIS" site has been recently overhauled to wipe out its most insulting parts, but the point is that I clearly remember having visited it in its very first beginning: at that time it promoted, in its "links" section, heinous, racist and nowadays illegal nazi-like web sites that have been banned since. Today these links no longer appear on the new ISIS site, but I clearly remember them. Given the admiration hailed by neocons at "Ibn Warraq", it would be interesting to discover the very political "lower parts" of all this "Ibn Warraq" affair. TwoHorned
I looked at this above. I think that his attempt to call Ibn Warraq a neo-Nazi is fairly ridiculous. The links in question were not on his site but on another site that he linked to [so it was a link to a link to a site]. Secondly, this site that he did link to had a very broad range of sites that criticised Islam, including Black groups, Hindu groups and sites that were against all religion. Calling him a neo-Nazi because of this makes about as much sense as calling him Black or calling him a Hindu. Epa101 21:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
One hopes that the U.S. government will not now act in such a way that more innocent lives are lost, albeit on the other side of the globe. One hopes that even now there is a legal way out in international courts of law. The situation is far more delicate and complex than a simple battle between good and evil, the solution is not to beat hell out of all Arabs and Muslims but neither is it to pretend that Islam had nothing to do with it, for that would be to bury one’s head in the Sands of Araby. If any American presidential candidate had said this, they would have already been kicked out of the race. Epa101 ( talk) 15:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The use of him by neocons is not particularly extensive. No more than his use by in Britain [where I live] by people such as Johann Hari (who is very left-wing) or Richard Dawkins (who, when he does talk about politics, is generally left-of-centre). I do not see the similarities with Horrowitz. Ibn Warraq does not go around accusing university professors of being a liberal conspiracy or calling the Democrats the party of racial tension. He has not supported war. He might consider democracy to be superior to Islamic theocracy, but you might be surprised to know that almost everyone in Europe believes that. Yes, there are many more cultural relativists in America than there are in Scandinavia. It is just that Europeans are not as keen on having actual wars for democracy. Epa101 ( talk) 13:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it is just because I am in Britain but I do not recognise this. I have heard of joint works with Robert Spencer but no further. Perhaps, you could show us other places where Ibn Warraq has been cited by neocons? I have not seen it. Being anti-Islam does not make you a neocon. Look at Serbia at the moment! They are anti-America and anti-Islam. Greece are just the same. In India, both Hindu extremists and Sikh extremists are strongly anti-Islam, but no-one would call them neocons. The Tamil Tigers have ethnically clensed Muslims in Sri Lanka; are they neocons? Then, there are people who oppose Islam just because they do not believe in it - a category that includes me - and also people such as Richard Dawkins, Victor Stenger, etc. There is no need to link Ibn Warraq with neocons. The old I.S.I.S. website only had links to links to extremist sites; that is too remote. Also, it is clear that whoever compiled that long list of websites could not believe in everything that was on each of them, seeing as you cannot simultaneously be a Zoroastrian, a Hindu fundamentalist, a Zionist and a Black separatist all at once. Look at the site and you would see links to all those groups on there. This link between Ibn Warraq and the neocons is too remote and insignificant to make it relevant to any article on him. Epa101 ( talk) 10:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I've added Ibn Warraq to the category of Humanists, since he appears on the secular humanism article.
As fallout from other related articles such as Ali Sina and Faith Freedom International we're seeing edits like this, [7] which add large numbers of links to Islamic sites without explaining the relevance. For consensus can we please add each web site as a new subject in the talk and allow us to verify it's notability in turn ? Ttiotsw 05:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
" Herbert Berg has labelled him as polemic and inconsistent in his writing. [1]"
I don't have access to the article. Is there anything worth quoting or expanding on. A quote would be nice. -- Otheus 10:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
References
From the source for the information about reasons for the penname: "The author of Why I Am Not a Muslim uses it due to concerns for his personal safety." Some other aspects of it are not stated as unambiguously as this is. So caveating this in the wikitext is puzzling. -- Otheus 12:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It's clear that this is a penname of someone who does not want such details to be clear. So, we have no other source but this article for information. It would violate WP:NOR for you to further diminish the certainty of the article. However, if you find another source, and it appears reliable, then we can modify the article accordingly. -- Otheus 23:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
A fair point. Perhaps it would be better to put the quotes in and lead with "According to ...".-- Otheus 00:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact that "Ibn Warraq" is a pen name should be mentioned in the very first line of this article. - 71.162.87.72 ( talk) 18:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
How does that blog's report on his supposed personal facts comprise information "known" about this anonymous writer? I couldn't figure out their sources and fact-checking but it could just as easily be made up as his name. It may be best to adjust the wording to retain uncertainty. The Behnam 12:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I am fairly sure that Ibn Warraq does not reveal his face except in meeting with selective audiences. The secularislam.org website still has a blank face next to his profile. Are we sure that this picture is alright? There is quite a large risk if this is wrong, you know! Epa101 21:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Could I have a full citation please? As to where I got the idea from, he has his face blacked out on the secularislam.org website, and I have never seen his face before despite being quite into his work for around a year now. Epa101 20:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I found this http://www.americanfreedomalliance.org/microsite/collapseofeurope/bios.htm , which has a similar picture further down. This supports the photo's claim. Was the picture on the page taken at this conference? If you go on Google Images and type in "Ibn Warraq", the American Freedom Alliance one is the only one that comes up. I may ask secularislam.org about it just to make sure. Epa101 20:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be some information here. If you think the info is a bit scant, I would take it up with the uploader and ask them to address your concerns. As for the WP:BLP policy, the line about "do no harm" is referring to the fact that this site isn't a tabloid. The Wikipedia:Avoiding harm essay itself explains the contestable nature of the issue; it isn't clear cut, black and white. There isn't express justification i've found in either the policy of the essay addressing subject safety. MezzoMezzo 10:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think that it probably is alright after all. I think that this policy of his to now speak in open and be seen is a new one, so we were right to be cautious. Thanks to all who responded to my query. 86.137.180.151 20:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Imo, the picture of Ibn Warraq should be removed. It does not serve any significant purpose, and one should consider therefore his safety. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morias Enkomion ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Ibn Warraq is not an atheist. He is an agnostic according to http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm This seems to be in line with what he writes. I have never seen him declare himself to be an atheist; he does argue against God, but this is always the Abrahamic sort of God. How do we get him out of Project Atheism? Epa101 19:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that a user is trying to cut the criticism section that has been here and edited by numerous users is sourced and a counterweight to the otherwise positive spin on Ibn Warraq. The sourced criticism clearly applies to his writing, which is not terribly academic. Ibn Warraq is not a scholar, just a writer that has a bias for works of outright orientalism and contoversial scholarship. Having wikipedia say that scholars take that view of his writings is not poisoning the well. Also, the fact that it might have been edited by a banned user does not mean it must be cut. Jayran 15:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The criticism at this time is heavily biased against Ibn Warraq. The quote from Varisco in particular doesn't tell us anything substantive, which is of course ironic. In praise of "Defending the West" I would mention reviews by Caschetta, Barnidge, and Berkowitz. A more balanced review (where would that fit in?) comes from Robert Irwin. Mr. Sextus ( talk) 13:27, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Arrow740, if you are having trouble deciphering WP:PEACOCK, please do specify where you are experiencing difficulty. ITAQALLAH 16:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
CltFn, a lot of your edits have shown contempt for neutrality and sourcing policies. here's a few examples of the unencyclopedic (and largely uncited) material inserted:
as such, i have tagged the section accordingly. please work on rectifying these errors and on removing poorly sourced (or unsourced) material as well as the swathes of tendendentious language that has been inserted. ITAQALLAH 16:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
just to clarify, it doesn't appear that the victims of jihad conference was a UN backed conference, the page says: "In the context of the 61st session of the UN Commission on Human Rights. We cordially invite Representatives of Members and Observers States of the UN Commission on Human Rights, UN bodies, Specialized Agencies, Intergovernmental Organizations and NGOs" - thus the conference was organised by the IHEU "in the context of the 61st session of the UN Commission on Human Rights" - and hence the invitation extended to UN bodies/agencies. is there any evidence suggesting otherwise? ITAQALLAH 14:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:External_links#Avoid_undue_weight_on_particular_points_of_view-- Kitrus ( talk) 05:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Ibn Warraq has not maintained the research requiremnts inevitable for a nuteral scholar. he presents one sided arguments but not the otherside of reality. as he has collected or compiled the essays of anti islamic thought through wichic prejudice can easily be seen.so he is an admirer of the West and Westren culture for the sake of his own agenda like many other materialistic former muslims rather than a scholar. he himself admits that his first book was so anti islamic that it was bycotted in France before 9/11. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.154.31.163 ( talk) 12:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe a biographic article on an author and scholar who has clearly made his subject focus Qur'anic criticism can really be deemed prejudiced. It seems your own comments are rather prejudiced and have little bearing on this article's content. Islamrevealed ( talk) 20:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Could someone please confirm that he is a libertarian? Otherwise he shouldn't be in that category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.188.189 ( talk) 17:42, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
This doesn't seem to be a very reliable source, esp. in the biography of a person whose alive. It has a particular bias against Islam. Is there a reason why its considered reliable?
Can we get another source for info we're getting Ibn Warraq's life? Bless sins ( talk) 20:16, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
There are many problems with the characterization "anti-Islam polemicist." If we are to believe that "polemicist" is neutral, then what are we to make of the criticism that Ibn Warraq's writing is "too polemical"?
Also, the entry does not refer to him as a scholar. Other sources do. Confusingly, the section of criticism is called "peer criticism," although in that section Ibn Warraq is charged with engaging in polemic rather than scholarship. Are those critics Ibn Warraq's peers? They seem to want to exclude him from their group, which is, implicit in their criticism, the group of scholars. Should Wikipedia oblige his harshest critics? Then the section shouldn't be called "peer criticism."
I suspect one could acknowledge that Ibn Warraq writes polemics against Islam without taking a stand on the quality of his scholarship.
Finally, the phrase "anti-Islam," though it appears to be justifiable with regard to several of Ibn Warraq's polemics, creates confusion when applied to the man, the "polemicist." Later in the article it is noted that he regards Sufism favorably. That is not consistent with being anti-Islam. It would need to be explained. Also, it is said that there is a tradition "throughout the history of Islam" of using "Ibn Warraq" as a pen name. That rather implies that Ibn Warraq is writing within Islam, even if he's writing in a tradition of apostasy. That's not something I can answer or even address, except to say that there seems to be some question as to just how far outside Islam he stands in order to criticize it.
It seems to me that Christianity and Christiandom have historically been the target of numerous polemics, some of them quite famous, yet the term "anti-Christian polemicist" is not used in this encyclopedia as of this moment. I suggest that's because "anti-Christian polemicist" is a prejudicial term, and I suspect "anti-Islam polemicist" is no less prejudicial.
Mr. Sextus ( talk) 12:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I think this is a special case of the bias of the article as a whole. Going by the articles on Warraq's individual books you'd think they all met with unqualified scorn, the same for Luxenberg's work. The word 'revisionist' comes up a lot; well, the main point of his work is that the traditional Islamic histories are hagiographic and mistaken - was Galileo a "revisionist" with respect to Catholicism? In fact, I think the spectacular bias of Islam-related articles on here rather proves his point. Logos384 ( talk) 21:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
'part of a series on Islamophobia'? What? Are you guys serious? Maybe he's scared of heights or something, but I don't think his books and articles can really be compared to that. Richard Dawkins' works on religion certainly have less scholarly credibility than Warraq's; put Dawkins' page in a 'series on religiophobia' or get rid of this nonsense now.
The article is trying too hard to prove Ibn Warrar a polemic and a revisionist. For that, certain sources are quoted selectively. But that's not Wikipedia is about. The article should be fully neutral: first of all, the intro should be free of any judgement. Secondly, there are enough credible sources that praise Ibn Warraq's work which are - without any doubt - based on excellent scholarly sources. The article needs to be "wikified" and rewritten in a more neutral way, neither praising him nor condemning him. -- Lysozym ( talk) 18:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
What is the "THe Campus enquirer"? Are there any online links to it? Bless sins ( talk) 23:35, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I have corrected Ibn Warrach's place of birth from Pakistan to India which is in line with his stated biography that he read out in a video on youtube entitled 'Why I am not a Muslim'. He fdurther says that although his family moved to Karachi, Pakistan, he still refers to himself as Indian as he was born there. Moarrikh ( talk) 23:35, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
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The "praise" for "Ibn Warraq" mainly comes from magazines like The Spectator, The Atlantic etc. They are all worth noting, but they are not academic sources. On the other hand the criticism mainly comes from academic sources, including peer-reviewed journals. Some pieces from the Middle East Quarterly praise Ibn Warraq, though I'm not totally sure if that counts as academic. An Academia vs Media sectioning is better than simply taking yay vs nay positions. VR talk 05:50, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
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A Request for Comment discussion is underway @ Talk:Superstitions in Muslim societies#RfC Is Ibn Warraq a reliable source ?.
For information and record.
Bookku ( talk) 03:44, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Merge Proposal and / or
Redirect.
Please do not modify it.
The result of the request for the Proposed Merger of {
The Origins of the Koran} into this talk page's article was:
Our pages on individual books by Warraq— The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, Why I Am Not a Muslim, and The Origins of the Koran—compose of little content except a section on reception. And, the sections stand duplicated on this page.
I will be merging the articles to this page in a contextual manner absent any opposition. TrangaBellam ( talk) 19:00, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
When creating new content about a notable topic, editors should consider how best to help readers understand it. Sometimes, understanding is best achieved by presenting the material on a dedicated standalone page, but it is not required that we do so. There are other times when it is better to cover notable topics, that clearly should be included in Wikipedia, as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context. A decision to cover a notable topic only as part of a broader page does not in any way disparage the importance of the topic. Editorial judgment goes into each decision about whether or not to create a separate page, but the decision should always be based upon specific considerations about how to make the topic understandable, and not merely upon personal likes or dislikes.
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The book has been the subject[1] of two or more non-trivial[2] published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself) and so should be kept; overwhelming negative reviews is not a reason for not recongnizing the importance of the reviews in establishing notability (rather the opposite). Klbrain ( talk) 10:55, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
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I have seen material on the internet that purports to identify Ibn Warraq by name. In my opinion it would be very wrong to put his name into the Wikipedia (even if this particular attempt to identify him is fallacious). DKleinecke 21:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The quote needs to cite its source. -- Reuben 16:46, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Can the source be his book (Why I am not a Muslim?)? Anyon that owns it (unfortunately I don`t) could verify if it is. PMLF 01:32, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
The quote is from a radio show called The Religion Report, which I added to the external links. It still needs cleaned up though, the quote leaves a bit in the middle out with notice. JayMehaffey 22:20, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I've heard that Ibn Warraq means "son of the scribe"? Is this true? If so, it might be worth mentioning in the article. Andjam 04:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Zora, why are you removing reference to a exsting article?
Further, Ibn Warraq is a "self proclaimed" ex-Muslim, since his identity is secret. There is no evidence of him ever being a Muslim. You know that some people love to call themself that, sometimes witout even knowing basic Islamic prinicples. -- Striver 10:07, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
People may wish to peruse Wikipedia:No original research Andjam 09:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd say that Ibn Warrag qualifies as a "popular" scholar, like Karen Armstrong. He has had university training (he studied under Watt) but he is not an academic. He collects and comments on academic papers for a non-academic audience. Does an OK job of it, too. I've got a shelf of scholarly books on Islam and I have a number of his books too. This is scholarly work. Academics don't cite him, but I've never read any criticism either. I don't regard anonymity as a minus; he has good reason to be afraid. He still has family in Pakistan, and they'd be at risk if it were known that a relative was an apostate. Not a comment on Islam in general, just on Pakistan. I'm starting to have a feeling that YOU don't like him, BalancingAct, and that you're looking for reasons to criticize him. Zora 11:25, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Why I am not a Muslim is a polemic work. If that were all he had published, I wouldn't call him a scholar. However, I have found his collections of scholarly articles, The Origins of the Koran, What the Koran Really Says, and The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, to be useful points of entry into the academic discourse. If you haven't read those books, then your critique is based on a misapprehension. Zora 23:32, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The fact that Why I am not a Muslim is a polemic work doesn't excuse it from minimum standards of scholarly professionalism, nor should it have no effect on its author's standing and reputation. BalancingAct 21:21, 29 January 2005
Although this discussion is more than two years old, I thought that I should add that Ibn Warraq said in Why I am Not a Muslim in the first sentence of the acknowledgements, "I am not a scholar or a specialist." That should end the discussion. The link above from the Muslim site is extremely biased and hypocritical. To say that Warraq does not cite sources is absolute slander. His references run to fifteen pages in Why I am not a Muslim.
Epa101 (
talk)
21:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
An interesting point: "Ibn Warraq", whoever he/she is, is often being quoted when referring to the "Institute for the Secularisation of the Islamic Society" (ISIS), a web site that purportedly advocates for the "freedom of conscience and religion", whatever is meant by that. The site is mentionned in the link section of this wikipedia article on "Ibn Warraq". That "ISIS" site has been recently overhauled to wipe out its most insulting parts, but the point is that I clearly remember having visited it in its very first beginning: at that time it promoted, in its "links" section, heinous, racist and nowadays illegal nazi-like web sites that have been banned since. Today these links no longer appear on the new ISIS site, but I clearly remember them. Given the admiration hailed by neocons at "Ibn Warraq", it would be interesting to discover the very political "lower parts" of all this "Ibn Warraq" affair. TwoHorned
I looked at this above. I think that his attempt to call Ibn Warraq a neo-Nazi is fairly ridiculous. The links in question were not on his site but on another site that he linked to [so it was a link to a link to a site]. Secondly, this site that he did link to had a very broad range of sites that criticised Islam, including Black groups, Hindu groups and sites that were against all religion. Calling him a neo-Nazi because of this makes about as much sense as calling him Black or calling him a Hindu. Epa101 21:21, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
One hopes that the U.S. government will not now act in such a way that more innocent lives are lost, albeit on the other side of the globe. One hopes that even now there is a legal way out in international courts of law. The situation is far more delicate and complex than a simple battle between good and evil, the solution is not to beat hell out of all Arabs and Muslims but neither is it to pretend that Islam had nothing to do with it, for that would be to bury one’s head in the Sands of Araby. If any American presidential candidate had said this, they would have already been kicked out of the race. Epa101 ( talk) 15:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The use of him by neocons is not particularly extensive. No more than his use by in Britain [where I live] by people such as Johann Hari (who is very left-wing) or Richard Dawkins (who, when he does talk about politics, is generally left-of-centre). I do not see the similarities with Horrowitz. Ibn Warraq does not go around accusing university professors of being a liberal conspiracy or calling the Democrats the party of racial tension. He has not supported war. He might consider democracy to be superior to Islamic theocracy, but you might be surprised to know that almost everyone in Europe believes that. Yes, there are many more cultural relativists in America than there are in Scandinavia. It is just that Europeans are not as keen on having actual wars for democracy. Epa101 ( talk) 13:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it is just because I am in Britain but I do not recognise this. I have heard of joint works with Robert Spencer but no further. Perhaps, you could show us other places where Ibn Warraq has been cited by neocons? I have not seen it. Being anti-Islam does not make you a neocon. Look at Serbia at the moment! They are anti-America and anti-Islam. Greece are just the same. In India, both Hindu extremists and Sikh extremists are strongly anti-Islam, but no-one would call them neocons. The Tamil Tigers have ethnically clensed Muslims in Sri Lanka; are they neocons? Then, there are people who oppose Islam just because they do not believe in it - a category that includes me - and also people such as Richard Dawkins, Victor Stenger, etc. There is no need to link Ibn Warraq with neocons. The old I.S.I.S. website only had links to links to extremist sites; that is too remote. Also, it is clear that whoever compiled that long list of websites could not believe in everything that was on each of them, seeing as you cannot simultaneously be a Zoroastrian, a Hindu fundamentalist, a Zionist and a Black separatist all at once. Look at the site and you would see links to all those groups on there. This link between Ibn Warraq and the neocons is too remote and insignificant to make it relevant to any article on him. Epa101 ( talk) 10:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I've added Ibn Warraq to the category of Humanists, since he appears on the secular humanism article.
As fallout from other related articles such as Ali Sina and Faith Freedom International we're seeing edits like this, [7] which add large numbers of links to Islamic sites without explaining the relevance. For consensus can we please add each web site as a new subject in the talk and allow us to verify it's notability in turn ? Ttiotsw 05:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
" Herbert Berg has labelled him as polemic and inconsistent in his writing. [1]"
I don't have access to the article. Is there anything worth quoting or expanding on. A quote would be nice. -- Otheus 10:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
References
From the source for the information about reasons for the penname: "The author of Why I Am Not a Muslim uses it due to concerns for his personal safety." Some other aspects of it are not stated as unambiguously as this is. So caveating this in the wikitext is puzzling. -- Otheus 12:16, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
It's clear that this is a penname of someone who does not want such details to be clear. So, we have no other source but this article for information. It would violate WP:NOR for you to further diminish the certainty of the article. However, if you find another source, and it appears reliable, then we can modify the article accordingly. -- Otheus 23:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
A fair point. Perhaps it would be better to put the quotes in and lead with "According to ...".-- Otheus 00:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
The fact that "Ibn Warraq" is a pen name should be mentioned in the very first line of this article. - 71.162.87.72 ( talk) 18:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
How does that blog's report on his supposed personal facts comprise information "known" about this anonymous writer? I couldn't figure out their sources and fact-checking but it could just as easily be made up as his name. It may be best to adjust the wording to retain uncertainty. The Behnam 12:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I am fairly sure that Ibn Warraq does not reveal his face except in meeting with selective audiences. The secularislam.org website still has a blank face next to his profile. Are we sure that this picture is alright? There is quite a large risk if this is wrong, you know! Epa101 21:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Could I have a full citation please? As to where I got the idea from, he has his face blacked out on the secularislam.org website, and I have never seen his face before despite being quite into his work for around a year now. Epa101 20:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I found this http://www.americanfreedomalliance.org/microsite/collapseofeurope/bios.htm , which has a similar picture further down. This supports the photo's claim. Was the picture on the page taken at this conference? If you go on Google Images and type in "Ibn Warraq", the American Freedom Alliance one is the only one that comes up. I may ask secularislam.org about it just to make sure. Epa101 20:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be some information here. If you think the info is a bit scant, I would take it up with the uploader and ask them to address your concerns. As for the WP:BLP policy, the line about "do no harm" is referring to the fact that this site isn't a tabloid. The Wikipedia:Avoiding harm essay itself explains the contestable nature of the issue; it isn't clear cut, black and white. There isn't express justification i've found in either the policy of the essay addressing subject safety. MezzoMezzo 10:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think that it probably is alright after all. I think that this policy of his to now speak in open and be seen is a new one, so we were right to be cautious. Thanks to all who responded to my query. 86.137.180.151 20:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Imo, the picture of Ibn Warraq should be removed. It does not serve any significant purpose, and one should consider therefore his safety. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morias Enkomion ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Ibn Warraq is not an atheist. He is an agnostic according to http://www.apostatesofislam.com/apostates.htm This seems to be in line with what he writes. I have never seen him declare himself to be an atheist; he does argue against God, but this is always the Abrahamic sort of God. How do we get him out of Project Atheism? Epa101 19:14, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that a user is trying to cut the criticism section that has been here and edited by numerous users is sourced and a counterweight to the otherwise positive spin on Ibn Warraq. The sourced criticism clearly applies to his writing, which is not terribly academic. Ibn Warraq is not a scholar, just a writer that has a bias for works of outright orientalism and contoversial scholarship. Having wikipedia say that scholars take that view of his writings is not poisoning the well. Also, the fact that it might have been edited by a banned user does not mean it must be cut. Jayran 15:54, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
The criticism at this time is heavily biased against Ibn Warraq. The quote from Varisco in particular doesn't tell us anything substantive, which is of course ironic. In praise of "Defending the West" I would mention reviews by Caschetta, Barnidge, and Berkowitz. A more balanced review (where would that fit in?) comes from Robert Irwin. Mr. Sextus ( talk) 13:27, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
Arrow740, if you are having trouble deciphering WP:PEACOCK, please do specify where you are experiencing difficulty. ITAQALLAH 16:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
CltFn, a lot of your edits have shown contempt for neutrality and sourcing policies. here's a few examples of the unencyclopedic (and largely uncited) material inserted:
as such, i have tagged the section accordingly. please work on rectifying these errors and on removing poorly sourced (or unsourced) material as well as the swathes of tendendentious language that has been inserted. ITAQALLAH 16:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
just to clarify, it doesn't appear that the victims of jihad conference was a UN backed conference, the page says: "In the context of the 61st session of the UN Commission on Human Rights. We cordially invite Representatives of Members and Observers States of the UN Commission on Human Rights, UN bodies, Specialized Agencies, Intergovernmental Organizations and NGOs" - thus the conference was organised by the IHEU "in the context of the 61st session of the UN Commission on Human Rights" - and hence the invitation extended to UN bodies/agencies. is there any evidence suggesting otherwise? ITAQALLAH 14:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:External_links#Avoid_undue_weight_on_particular_points_of_view-- Kitrus ( talk) 05:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Ibn Warraq has not maintained the research requiremnts inevitable for a nuteral scholar. he presents one sided arguments but not the otherside of reality. as he has collected or compiled the essays of anti islamic thought through wichic prejudice can easily be seen.so he is an admirer of the West and Westren culture for the sake of his own agenda like many other materialistic former muslims rather than a scholar. he himself admits that his first book was so anti islamic that it was bycotted in France before 9/11. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.154.31.163 ( talk) 12:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't believe a biographic article on an author and scholar who has clearly made his subject focus Qur'anic criticism can really be deemed prejudiced. It seems your own comments are rather prejudiced and have little bearing on this article's content. Islamrevealed ( talk) 20:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Could someone please confirm that he is a libertarian? Otherwise he shouldn't be in that category. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.188.189 ( talk) 17:42, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
This doesn't seem to be a very reliable source, esp. in the biography of a person whose alive. It has a particular bias against Islam. Is there a reason why its considered reliable?
Can we get another source for info we're getting Ibn Warraq's life? Bless sins ( talk) 20:16, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
There are many problems with the characterization "anti-Islam polemicist." If we are to believe that "polemicist" is neutral, then what are we to make of the criticism that Ibn Warraq's writing is "too polemical"?
Also, the entry does not refer to him as a scholar. Other sources do. Confusingly, the section of criticism is called "peer criticism," although in that section Ibn Warraq is charged with engaging in polemic rather than scholarship. Are those critics Ibn Warraq's peers? They seem to want to exclude him from their group, which is, implicit in their criticism, the group of scholars. Should Wikipedia oblige his harshest critics? Then the section shouldn't be called "peer criticism."
I suspect one could acknowledge that Ibn Warraq writes polemics against Islam without taking a stand on the quality of his scholarship.
Finally, the phrase "anti-Islam," though it appears to be justifiable with regard to several of Ibn Warraq's polemics, creates confusion when applied to the man, the "polemicist." Later in the article it is noted that he regards Sufism favorably. That is not consistent with being anti-Islam. It would need to be explained. Also, it is said that there is a tradition "throughout the history of Islam" of using "Ibn Warraq" as a pen name. That rather implies that Ibn Warraq is writing within Islam, even if he's writing in a tradition of apostasy. That's not something I can answer or even address, except to say that there seems to be some question as to just how far outside Islam he stands in order to criticize it.
It seems to me that Christianity and Christiandom have historically been the target of numerous polemics, some of them quite famous, yet the term "anti-Christian polemicist" is not used in this encyclopedia as of this moment. I suggest that's because "anti-Christian polemicist" is a prejudicial term, and I suspect "anti-Islam polemicist" is no less prejudicial.
Mr. Sextus ( talk) 12:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I think this is a special case of the bias of the article as a whole. Going by the articles on Warraq's individual books you'd think they all met with unqualified scorn, the same for Luxenberg's work. The word 'revisionist' comes up a lot; well, the main point of his work is that the traditional Islamic histories are hagiographic and mistaken - was Galileo a "revisionist" with respect to Catholicism? In fact, I think the spectacular bias of Islam-related articles on here rather proves his point. Logos384 ( talk) 21:42, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
'part of a series on Islamophobia'? What? Are you guys serious? Maybe he's scared of heights or something, but I don't think his books and articles can really be compared to that. Richard Dawkins' works on religion certainly have less scholarly credibility than Warraq's; put Dawkins' page in a 'series on religiophobia' or get rid of this nonsense now.
The article is trying too hard to prove Ibn Warrar a polemic and a revisionist. For that, certain sources are quoted selectively. But that's not Wikipedia is about. The article should be fully neutral: first of all, the intro should be free of any judgement. Secondly, there are enough credible sources that praise Ibn Warraq's work which are - without any doubt - based on excellent scholarly sources. The article needs to be "wikified" and rewritten in a more neutral way, neither praising him nor condemning him. -- Lysozym ( talk) 18:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
What is the "THe Campus enquirer"? Are there any online links to it? Bless sins ( talk) 23:35, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I have corrected Ibn Warrach's place of birth from Pakistan to India which is in line with his stated biography that he read out in a video on youtube entitled 'Why I am not a Muslim'. He fdurther says that although his family moved to Karachi, Pakistan, he still refers to himself as Indian as he was born there. Moarrikh ( talk) 23:35, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
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The "praise" for "Ibn Warraq" mainly comes from magazines like The Spectator, The Atlantic etc. They are all worth noting, but they are not academic sources. On the other hand the criticism mainly comes from academic sources, including peer-reviewed journals. Some pieces from the Middle East Quarterly praise Ibn Warraq, though I'm not totally sure if that counts as academic. An Academia vs Media sectioning is better than simply taking yay vs nay positions. VR talk 05:50, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
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A Request for Comment discussion is underway @ Talk:Superstitions in Muslim societies#RfC Is Ibn Warraq a reliable source ?.
For information and record.
Bookku ( talk) 03:44, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Merge Proposal and / or
Redirect.
Please do not modify it.
The result of the request for the Proposed Merger of {
The Origins of the Koran} into this talk page's article was:
Our pages on individual books by Warraq— The Quest for the Historical Muhammad, Why I Am Not a Muslim, and The Origins of the Koran—compose of little content except a section on reception. And, the sections stand duplicated on this page.
I will be merging the articles to this page in a contextual manner absent any opposition. TrangaBellam ( talk) 19:00, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
When creating new content about a notable topic, editors should consider how best to help readers understand it. Sometimes, understanding is best achieved by presenting the material on a dedicated standalone page, but it is not required that we do so. There are other times when it is better to cover notable topics, that clearly should be included in Wikipedia, as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context. A decision to cover a notable topic only as part of a broader page does not in any way disparage the importance of the topic. Editorial judgment goes into each decision about whether or not to create a separate page, but the decision should always be based upon specific considerations about how to make the topic understandable, and not merely upon personal likes or dislikes.
Sometimes, a notable topic can be covered better as part of a larger article, where there can be more complete context that would be lost on a separate page [...] Sometimes, when a subject is notable, but it is unlikely that there ever will be a lot to write about it, editors should weigh the advantages and disadvantages of creating a permanent stub.
The book has been the subject[1] of two or more non-trivial[2] published works appearing in sources that are independent of the book itself) and so should be kept; overwhelming negative reviews is not a reason for not recongnizing the importance of the reviews in establishing notability (rather the opposite). Klbrain ( talk) 10:55, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' ( talk) 04:55, 28 March 2022 (UTC)