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ITER article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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This statement "ITERs goals are: to achieve enough fusion to produce 10 times as much output power as input" is false. I have attempted to correct it but two other editors, for what seem to be to be arbitrary reasons, insist on keeping the sentence in, and as is.
If Wikipedia itself is assumed to be a Reliable Source, then a decade of this same false/misleading claim on the English, French, and Chinese Wikipedia ITER pages (until I corrected them) should be sufficient evidence of the importance of being accurate and precise on this matter now.
http://news.newenergytimes.net/2019/02/10/a-decade-of-false-and-exaggerated-iter-power-claims-on-wikipedia/
I have run out of time. For now, this Wikipedia page will mislead readers who either fail to read the third paragraph or get confused at the apparent inconsistency. This is likely to cause non-experts, students, and journalists to think, citing Wikipedia, that is okay to say that one of "ITER's goals is to achieve enough fusion to produce 10 times as much output power as input." That phrase, as is, if published by people who are informed on the subject, is a lie and is an abuse of the spirit and purpose of Wikipedia.
StevenBKrivit (
talk) 02:35, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
most "WP:RS" sources got it wrong– even if we take this as granted (and you have not provided a compelling reason why we should), the fact remains that all WP can do is echo to its readers what the reliable secondary sources say. There is an essay somewhere (I can't be bothered digging it out) which says something to the effect of "If Wikipedia were around in 1500 it would report the consensus that the Sun orbits the Earth, and that would be A Good Thing". For WP to take any side, even the one that posterity judges to be the correct one, in an ongoing scientific dispute, would be to violate its policy on neutrality – to violate it egregiously, in fact. I would also note that the sources you refer to would typically be considered reliable, and any attempt to put your own personal website on the same level as them is likely to constitute a conflict of interest (in addition to having serious likely problems re undue weight and promoting marginal views). Per mfb above, it might be time to drop this particular WP:STICK. Archon 2488 ( talk) 17:43, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
"ITER's thermonuclear fusion reactor will use over 300MW of electrical power to cause the plasma to absorb 50 MW of thermal power, creating 500 MW of heat from fusion "
So, it will create 500MW, but consume 300MW. That's not a ten fold gain, that's a barely 50% gain. Using the 500 MW / 50 MW == 10X is the most dishonest creative accounting. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2001:8003:E41C:1C01:6D77:3D5A:30C:42ED (
talk) 10:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
This map is inaccurate the UK and Switzerland should not be dark blue I suggest make a new map and make these countries along with Canada, Australia, Kazakhstan, and Thailand light blue to differentiate between them and the dark blue countries Black roses124 ( talk) 03:13, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Thank @Afiaki Black roses124 ( talk) 22:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
sorry for asking, i just wonder iter and tesla almost the same, just like old time energy using sun and heat. sorry afaik QuaMbear ( talk) 09:57, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
Earlier today, I made nineteen modest edits to the "See also" section, where I added brief descriptions and links to a few major research efforts in the United States that were otherwise not referenced (e.g., MIT’s Alcator C-Mod reactor, Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory’s National Spherical Torus Experiment, and the Helically Symmetric Experiment at the University of Wisconsin–Madison). I also expanded brief descriptions of the advanced tokamak of the Japan Atomic Energy Agency, the stellarator of the Max Planck IPP in Germany, the UK’s concept for an affordable Spherical Tokamak for Energy Production, as well as the extraordinary statistics characterizing Nuclear power in France. I hope these expansions (and several others) meet with the approval of senior editors; I welcome any improvements.
However, a major impetus behind my edits today was empathy for Wikipedia users with slow internet connections — which I myself suffer sometimes, even as a resident of Cambridge, Massachusetts. Merely having internal links without an informative description of what the reader will get if they hit on a link can be frustrating for those with poor interconnectivity, as this ties-up one’s computer unnecessarily to access an inadequately described Wikipedia page that’s ultimately not useful. Thus I added links with brief but informative descriptions, as well as expanded existing links, to better describe what they offer a reader. Theophilus Reed ( talk) 23:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC) Theophilus Reed
The claim ITER is "...aimed at creating energy by replicating, on Earth, the fusion processes of the Sun" should be removed from the first paragraph because it is false. The Sun relies on fusion of "standard" hydrogen (sometimes called protium in context) - a fuel that really is cheap and limitless. No contemplated fusion facility on Earth, and certainly not ITER, relies on this physical process. All tokamak-type reactors rely on deuterium-tritium (D-T) fusion, a significantly different physical process. This change is important because the "fusion processes of the Sun" falsehood helps propagate the more significant "cheap and limitless fuel" myth. I say "myth" because tritium is expensive and severely constrained, not cheap and limitless. As the concerned community confronts the reality of the worldwide tritium shortfall later in the 2020s and 2030s, it will become increasingly important to correctly describe the physical processes involved in order to reset understanding of the issue after decades of such falsehoods. This proposed change is a first step in that direction. For a less technical discussion of the issue, see https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started; for a more technical discussion, see https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1741-4326/abbf35/pdf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.240.194.99 ( talk) 03:32, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Article seemed to ignore the 2022 construction problems and effect on timescales - eg [1]. - Rod57 ( talk) 23:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
I wrote the whole comment in the title InterGraphenic ( talk) 19:31, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Lerner is a well-known crackpot with a personal financial interest in dismissing ITER. I don't see a reason to give him a platform as primary source (!) in this article. Any objections to removing it? -- mfb ( talk) 07:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
ITER article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
ITER was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
|
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This statement "ITERs goals are: to achieve enough fusion to produce 10 times as much output power as input" is false. I have attempted to correct it but two other editors, for what seem to be to be arbitrary reasons, insist on keeping the sentence in, and as is.
If Wikipedia itself is assumed to be a Reliable Source, then a decade of this same false/misleading claim on the English, French, and Chinese Wikipedia ITER pages (until I corrected them) should be sufficient evidence of the importance of being accurate and precise on this matter now.
http://news.newenergytimes.net/2019/02/10/a-decade-of-false-and-exaggerated-iter-power-claims-on-wikipedia/
I have run out of time. For now, this Wikipedia page will mislead readers who either fail to read the third paragraph or get confused at the apparent inconsistency. This is likely to cause non-experts, students, and journalists to think, citing Wikipedia, that is okay to say that one of "ITER's goals is to achieve enough fusion to produce 10 times as much output power as input." That phrase, as is, if published by people who are informed on the subject, is a lie and is an abuse of the spirit and purpose of Wikipedia.
StevenBKrivit (
talk) 02:35, 5 August 2021 (UTC)
most "WP:RS" sources got it wrong– even if we take this as granted (and you have not provided a compelling reason why we should), the fact remains that all WP can do is echo to its readers what the reliable secondary sources say. There is an essay somewhere (I can't be bothered digging it out) which says something to the effect of "If Wikipedia were around in 1500 it would report the consensus that the Sun orbits the Earth, and that would be A Good Thing". For WP to take any side, even the one that posterity judges to be the correct one, in an ongoing scientific dispute, would be to violate its policy on neutrality – to violate it egregiously, in fact. I would also note that the sources you refer to would typically be considered reliable, and any attempt to put your own personal website on the same level as them is likely to constitute a conflict of interest (in addition to having serious likely problems re undue weight and promoting marginal views). Per mfb above, it might be time to drop this particular WP:STICK. Archon 2488 ( talk) 17:43, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
"ITER's thermonuclear fusion reactor will use over 300MW of electrical power to cause the plasma to absorb 50 MW of thermal power, creating 500 MW of heat from fusion "
So, it will create 500MW, but consume 300MW. That's not a ten fold gain, that's a barely 50% gain. Using the 500 MW / 50 MW == 10X is the most dishonest creative accounting. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2001:8003:E41C:1C01:6D77:3D5A:30C:42ED (
talk) 10:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
This map is inaccurate the UK and Switzerland should not be dark blue I suggest make a new map and make these countries along with Canada, Australia, Kazakhstan, and Thailand light blue to differentiate between them and the dark blue countries Black roses124 ( talk) 03:13, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
Thank @Afiaki Black roses124 ( talk) 22:58, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
sorry for asking, i just wonder iter and tesla almost the same, just like old time energy using sun and heat. sorry afaik QuaMbear ( talk) 09:57, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
Earlier today, I made nineteen modest edits to the "See also" section, where I added brief descriptions and links to a few major research efforts in the United States that were otherwise not referenced (e.g., MIT’s Alcator C-Mod reactor, Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory’s National Spherical Torus Experiment, and the Helically Symmetric Experiment at the University of Wisconsin–Madison). I also expanded brief descriptions of the advanced tokamak of the Japan Atomic Energy Agency, the stellarator of the Max Planck IPP in Germany, the UK’s concept for an affordable Spherical Tokamak for Energy Production, as well as the extraordinary statistics characterizing Nuclear power in France. I hope these expansions (and several others) meet with the approval of senior editors; I welcome any improvements.
However, a major impetus behind my edits today was empathy for Wikipedia users with slow internet connections — which I myself suffer sometimes, even as a resident of Cambridge, Massachusetts. Merely having internal links without an informative description of what the reader will get if they hit on a link can be frustrating for those with poor interconnectivity, as this ties-up one’s computer unnecessarily to access an inadequately described Wikipedia page that’s ultimately not useful. Thus I added links with brief but informative descriptions, as well as expanded existing links, to better describe what they offer a reader. Theophilus Reed ( talk) 23:28, 12 December 2022 (UTC) Theophilus Reed
The claim ITER is "...aimed at creating energy by replicating, on Earth, the fusion processes of the Sun" should be removed from the first paragraph because it is false. The Sun relies on fusion of "standard" hydrogen (sometimes called protium in context) - a fuel that really is cheap and limitless. No contemplated fusion facility on Earth, and certainly not ITER, relies on this physical process. All tokamak-type reactors rely on deuterium-tritium (D-T) fusion, a significantly different physical process. This change is important because the "fusion processes of the Sun" falsehood helps propagate the more significant "cheap and limitless fuel" myth. I say "myth" because tritium is expensive and severely constrained, not cheap and limitless. As the concerned community confronts the reality of the worldwide tritium shortfall later in the 2020s and 2030s, it will become increasingly important to correctly describe the physical processes involved in order to reset understanding of the issue after decades of such falsehoods. This proposed change is a first step in that direction. For a less technical discussion of the issue, see https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started; for a more technical discussion, see https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1741-4326/abbf35/pdf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.240.194.99 ( talk) 03:32, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
Article seemed to ignore the 2022 construction problems and effect on timescales - eg [1]. - Rod57 ( talk) 23:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
I wrote the whole comment in the title InterGraphenic ( talk) 19:31, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
Lerner is a well-known crackpot with a personal financial interest in dismissing ITER. I don't see a reason to give him a platform as primary source (!) in this article. Any objections to removing it? -- mfb ( talk) 07:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)