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Abbatai you're going to need better source to deny the Armenian Genocide. Or in this case to claim that there was a genocide against the turks. In any case, Turkish propaganda sites are not reliable. See WP:RS for more. VartanM ( talk) 01:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
There are a library for genocide research and many documents(pictures, archives,etc) that proves massacre of Turks by Armenians in the monument.4.000 people visit the monument every year. Abbatai ( talk) 07:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
WP:NCGN : "The lead: Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages". Stop editwarring. Sardur ( talk) 16:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
The keyword is "Relevant". Why Igdir is relevant for Armenian spelling? The names origin explained in Etymology and History section. According to Armenian SSR encyclopaedia the town was named tsolokert until middle ages. Is this the reason you include Armenian spelling? If this is the case, then pretty please, Include persian/turkish/russian spelling to all armenian cities which were part of those empires for several hundreds of years. Otherwise give a good reason why you target Turkish cities. Unible 06:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible ( talk • contribs)
According to many historians such as Taner Akcam and Guenter Lewy Muslim people were killed in scores in eastern Anatolia near Erzurum, Mus, Karz, Erzincan and Igdir. (I can give the exact citations if you want.) So why are we saying "alleged massacres"? Note that massacre does not mean genocide. I would be the first one to object if someone used genocide there. Also note that this does not mean the denial of Armenian genocide. If everybody agrees I can rewrite the whole first paragraph as follows:
In August 1997, construction started on the "Iğdır Soykırım Anıt-Müzesi" ("Igdir Genocide Monument and Museum"). Turkish authorities erected the monument to commemorate the massacres of Turks and Kurds by Armenians during the First World War. Its construction is seen as a part of Turkey's continuing denial of Armenian Genocide.[7]"
I excluded the quote since it does not provide any new information. Also I couldn't find quote [7], can someone point out where I can find it? 68.48.22.83 ( talk) 23:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
In here [1] it says: Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages. Azerbaijanis make more than half of the population of Igdir according to this: Population policy in Turkey, Erhard Franz,page 293--Abbatai 20:59, 12 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbatai ( talk • contribs)
According to a map in Türk İstiklâl Harbi III ncü Cilt: Doğu Cephesi (1919 - 1921), Genelkurmay Askerî Tarih ve Stratejik Etüt Başkanlığı Yayınları, Genelkurmay Basım Evi, Ankara, 1995, ISBN 975-409-050-5, p .342., Iğdır was in the border of Ermenistan Cumhuriyeti. When had Turkey controlled Iğdır before then ? Takabeg ( talk) 10:04, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Were the objectives of the war, to eliminate the republic and overran Igdir ? Which sources this author (Hovanissian) referred to ? Takabeg ( talk) 03:05, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Do you know Igdir's situation in the Treaty of Brest Litovsk ? According to Turkish books, Iğdır was one of Brest-Litovsk Antlaşmasının dışında kalan bölgelerden (the regions outside of Treaty of Brest Litovsk). Takabeg ( talk) 03:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Do you know the precise date that the Armenian forces took Igdir after the Armistice of Mudros. ? Takabeg ( talk) 10:34, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
According to WP:NCGN regulation Turkish and Azerbaijani names must be added in the lead. WP:NCGN reads: "The lead: Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages". Ethnic Azerbaijanis and Turks form the majority of the population in the city, therefore it is relevant to add both their names. I did so accordingly. Neftchi ( talk) 21:22, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
... "the opening of a border gate with Nakhchivan in 1992"
Our Soviet-era map suggests to me that this is the border of Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic (not Nakhchivan (city)) with a sliver of Turkey at its extreme northwest. In this article we suggest that this border transformed Igdir. Is there much traffic?
(quote) "Armenian forces abandoned Igdir. They burned down the Markara Bridge and retreated to the northern bank of the Aras River on November 13, 1920."
This article says Igdir is in a plain below Mt Ararat, not whether it is also on the river. I suppose it is somewhere northwest of the sliver, and the latter may have been acquired to create a border. -- P64 ( talk) 17:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
"Middle Ages" in the section lead presumably means the time from Arab conquest c. 650 to renewal of a Persian Empire by the Safavid dynasty (whose capital was Tabriz, in this region, from the start in 1501).
Was there a treaty with Byzantium that placed or retained the site of Igdir in Persian territory at the time of the conquest? 565 591 600 611-624 624-628. If we lack a known 628 treaty boundary then these maps (linked above, below) suggest to me there may be no fact of the matter, or the fact may be unknown to history, because the site is very close to the boundaries we show on thematic maps Fall of the Sasanian Empire, Muslim conquest of Persia. And "traditional boundaries" in the last two dated maps do not match. Then we should place it generally, such as "at the Byzantine–Sasanian frontier at the time of the Arab conquest of Persia (c. 650)". 650
The Ottoman E gained territory from the Persian E in mid-16th century war, so we must change the wording "In 1555, the town became a part of Safavid Empire." We should convey that the renewed Persian Empire controlled the region early in the 16th century and *retained* Igdir and points to the East in the peace of 1555. --And Iran essentially retained this valley until the 1828 Treaty of Turkmenchay with Russia, despite several victories by Ottoman armies in the region.
-- P64 ( talk) 19:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Cognizant of the possibility of me being dragged into an edit war, I will refrain from making further edits to this article, despite Maurice07's insistence to add material that is strictly against the letter and essence of some of Wikipedia's core policies. The accretion of the sentence "Turks massacred by the Armenians" is recognized by all commentators to be nothing but an attempt by the official Turkish government to whitewash its own predecessor's genocide against the Armenians. A town with an almost wholly Armenian population is said to have been the location of a genocide perpetrated by Armenians against Turks (where none in fact were resident, according to the statistical information on hand). The deletion of the Armenian name by Maurice07, so much more serious than the deletion of a name that is not related to the town historically or linguistically (such as the Azerbaijani), is also grounds for concern.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 18:40, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Note to self (mostly). A number of mentions of Tsolakert / Zolocerta in an article in REA 1930 p143. Seems the place is mentioned in the Ravenna Cosmography and by Movses Khorenatsi. REA article, however, identifies Tsolakert as Karakale - which is strange given that, as Cholakert, it is mentioned in the Russian excavation report as being on the foothills of Ararat (at Tashburun) and its Soviet Armenian-period author (Hakob Manandian) should have known about that report. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:13, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Armenian spelling is in the etymology section. Despite this, the editors are trying to bring it to the forefront. Armenian is not a language used in Turkey. There is no Armenian population living in Igdir. I did not remove the armenian spelling. Armenian spelling is be situated in etymology section. What is the purpose of the editors ? They do not show a reason.-- 88.251.63.172 ( talk) 17:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
This was a very meaningless edit war. Place of spellings is etymology or name section. Some editörs, insist on bringing it to the foreground. What is the purpose here. Please join the discussion and give your opinion.-- ArslanYabgu ( talk) 16:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
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@ MarshallBagramyan: The name doesn't have to be "historical" to appear as a translation in the article. The city is Azerbaijani-majority, not putting the name of the city that the majority of its population uses isn't right. It's as relevant, if not more relevant than the Kurdish name. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 13:17, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages – i.e., (Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken).
![]() |
I removed this entry because the dispute is between more than two editors. Consider opening a thread at WP:DRN. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 03:05, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
There have been many edits and reverts on the optional depiction of the pushpin map. I have seen also that in Istanbul Europe and Asia are optional depictions together. Would this be an acceptable compromise for the two sides? Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 12:57, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that a map or maps be
included in this article to
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![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
Armenia,
Azerbaijan, or related conflicts, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
Abbatai you're going to need better source to deny the Armenian Genocide. Or in this case to claim that there was a genocide against the turks. In any case, Turkish propaganda sites are not reliable. See WP:RS for more. VartanM ( talk) 01:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
There are a library for genocide research and many documents(pictures, archives,etc) that proves massacre of Turks by Armenians in the monument.4.000 people visit the monument every year. Abbatai ( talk) 07:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
WP:NCGN : "The lead: Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages". Stop editwarring. Sardur ( talk) 16:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
The keyword is "Relevant". Why Igdir is relevant for Armenian spelling? The names origin explained in Etymology and History section. According to Armenian SSR encyclopaedia the town was named tsolokert until middle ages. Is this the reason you include Armenian spelling? If this is the case, then pretty please, Include persian/turkish/russian spelling to all armenian cities which were part of those empires for several hundreds of years. Otherwise give a good reason why you target Turkish cities. Unible 06:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unible ( talk • contribs)
According to many historians such as Taner Akcam and Guenter Lewy Muslim people were killed in scores in eastern Anatolia near Erzurum, Mus, Karz, Erzincan and Igdir. (I can give the exact citations if you want.) So why are we saying "alleged massacres"? Note that massacre does not mean genocide. I would be the first one to object if someone used genocide there. Also note that this does not mean the denial of Armenian genocide. If everybody agrees I can rewrite the whole first paragraph as follows:
In August 1997, construction started on the "Iğdır Soykırım Anıt-Müzesi" ("Igdir Genocide Monument and Museum"). Turkish authorities erected the monument to commemorate the massacres of Turks and Kurds by Armenians during the First World War. Its construction is seen as a part of Turkey's continuing denial of Armenian Genocide.[7]"
I excluded the quote since it does not provide any new information. Also I couldn't find quote [7], can someone point out where I can find it? 68.48.22.83 ( talk) 23:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
In here [1] it says: Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages. Azerbaijanis make more than half of the population of Igdir according to this: Population policy in Turkey, Erhard Franz,page 293--Abbatai 20:59, 12 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbatai ( talk • contribs)
According to a map in Türk İstiklâl Harbi III ncü Cilt: Doğu Cephesi (1919 - 1921), Genelkurmay Askerî Tarih ve Stratejik Etüt Başkanlığı Yayınları, Genelkurmay Basım Evi, Ankara, 1995, ISBN 975-409-050-5, p .342., Iğdır was in the border of Ermenistan Cumhuriyeti. When had Turkey controlled Iğdır before then ? Takabeg ( talk) 10:04, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Were the objectives of the war, to eliminate the republic and overran Igdir ? Which sources this author (Hovanissian) referred to ? Takabeg ( talk) 03:05, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Do you know Igdir's situation in the Treaty of Brest Litovsk ? According to Turkish books, Iğdır was one of Brest-Litovsk Antlaşmasının dışında kalan bölgelerden (the regions outside of Treaty of Brest Litovsk). Takabeg ( talk) 03:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Do you know the precise date that the Armenian forces took Igdir after the Armistice of Mudros. ? Takabeg ( talk) 10:34, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
According to WP:NCGN regulation Turkish and Azerbaijani names must be added in the lead. WP:NCGN reads: "The lead: Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages". Ethnic Azerbaijanis and Turks form the majority of the population in the city, therefore it is relevant to add both their names. I did so accordingly. Neftchi ( talk) 21:22, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
... "the opening of a border gate with Nakhchivan in 1992"
Our Soviet-era map suggests to me that this is the border of Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic (not Nakhchivan (city)) with a sliver of Turkey at its extreme northwest. In this article we suggest that this border transformed Igdir. Is there much traffic?
(quote) "Armenian forces abandoned Igdir. They burned down the Markara Bridge and retreated to the northern bank of the Aras River on November 13, 1920."
This article says Igdir is in a plain below Mt Ararat, not whether it is also on the river. I suppose it is somewhere northwest of the sliver, and the latter may have been acquired to create a border. -- P64 ( talk) 17:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
"Middle Ages" in the section lead presumably means the time from Arab conquest c. 650 to renewal of a Persian Empire by the Safavid dynasty (whose capital was Tabriz, in this region, from the start in 1501).
Was there a treaty with Byzantium that placed or retained the site of Igdir in Persian territory at the time of the conquest? 565 591 600 611-624 624-628. If we lack a known 628 treaty boundary then these maps (linked above, below) suggest to me there may be no fact of the matter, or the fact may be unknown to history, because the site is very close to the boundaries we show on thematic maps Fall of the Sasanian Empire, Muslim conquest of Persia. And "traditional boundaries" in the last two dated maps do not match. Then we should place it generally, such as "at the Byzantine–Sasanian frontier at the time of the Arab conquest of Persia (c. 650)". 650
The Ottoman E gained territory from the Persian E in mid-16th century war, so we must change the wording "In 1555, the town became a part of Safavid Empire." We should convey that the renewed Persian Empire controlled the region early in the 16th century and *retained* Igdir and points to the East in the peace of 1555. --And Iran essentially retained this valley until the 1828 Treaty of Turkmenchay with Russia, despite several victories by Ottoman armies in the region.
-- P64 ( talk) 19:04, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Cognizant of the possibility of me being dragged into an edit war, I will refrain from making further edits to this article, despite Maurice07's insistence to add material that is strictly against the letter and essence of some of Wikipedia's core policies. The accretion of the sentence "Turks massacred by the Armenians" is recognized by all commentators to be nothing but an attempt by the official Turkish government to whitewash its own predecessor's genocide against the Armenians. A town with an almost wholly Armenian population is said to have been the location of a genocide perpetrated by Armenians against Turks (where none in fact were resident, according to the statistical information on hand). The deletion of the Armenian name by Maurice07, so much more serious than the deletion of a name that is not related to the town historically or linguistically (such as the Azerbaijani), is also grounds for concern.-- Marshal Bagramyan ( talk) 18:40, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Note to self (mostly). A number of mentions of Tsolakert / Zolocerta in an article in REA 1930 p143. Seems the place is mentioned in the Ravenna Cosmography and by Movses Khorenatsi. REA article, however, identifies Tsolakert as Karakale - which is strange given that, as Cholakert, it is mentioned in the Russian excavation report as being on the foothills of Ararat (at Tashburun) and its Soviet Armenian-period author (Hakob Manandian) should have known about that report. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 21:13, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Armenian spelling is in the etymology section. Despite this, the editors are trying to bring it to the forefront. Armenian is not a language used in Turkey. There is no Armenian population living in Igdir. I did not remove the armenian spelling. Armenian spelling is be situated in etymology section. What is the purpose of the editors ? They do not show a reason.-- 88.251.63.172 ( talk) 17:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
This was a very meaningless edit war. Place of spellings is etymology or name section. Some editörs, insist on bringing it to the foreground. What is the purpose here. Please join the discussion and give your opinion.-- ArslanYabgu ( talk) 16:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
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@ MarshallBagramyan: The name doesn't have to be "historical" to appear as a translation in the article. The city is Azerbaijani-majority, not putting the name of the city that the majority of its population uses isn't right. It's as relevant, if not more relevant than the Kurdish name. — CuriousGolden (T· C) 13:17, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted. Local official names should be listed before other alternate names if they differ from a widely accepted English name. Other relevant language names may appear in alphabetic order of their respective languages – i.e., (Estonian: Soome laht; Finnish: Suomenlahti; Russian: Финский залив, Finskiy zaliv; Swedish: Finska viken).
![]() |
I removed this entry because the dispute is between more than two editors. Consider opening a thread at WP:DRN. Erpert blah, blah, blah... 03:05, 10 March 2021 (UTC) |
There have been many edits and reverts on the optional depiction of the pushpin map. I have seen also that in Istanbul Europe and Asia are optional depictions together. Would this be an acceptable compromise for the two sides? Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 12:57, 25 August 2022 (UTC)