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Thank you to Clayoquot plus the other editors for making this article so much better through your revision work from September onwards! Much appreciated. How would you characterise the quality of the article now, are there still problem areas that need addressing or would you say it's pretty much "done" for now? Any remaining weaknesses? What's the reading ease like in your opinion, is some work needed in that regard to improve readability? And some more images maybe? EMsmile ( talk) 10:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
This entire section has no sources. A chunk of it was added in 2007 in this edit. I wonder if this text is any good (in which case sources should be found) or if it should be taken out?
"A key tradeoff: centralized vs. distributed production
In a future full hydrogen economy, primary energy sources and feedstock would be used to produce hydrogen gas as stored energy for use in various sectors of the economy. Producing hydrogen from primary energy sources other than coal and oil would result in lower production of the greenhouse gases characteristic of the combustion of coal and oil fossil energy resources. The importance of non-polluting methane pyrolysis of natural gas is becoming a recognized method for using current natural gas infrastructure investment to produce hydrogen and no greenhouse gas. citation needed
One key feature of a hydrogen economy would be that in mobile applications (primarily vehicular transport) energy generation and use could be decoupled. The primary energy source would need no longer travel with the vehicle, as it currently does with hydrocarbon fuels. Instead of tailpipes creating dispersed emissions, the energy (and pollution) could be generated from point sources such as large-scale, centralized facilities with improved efficiency. This would allow the possibility of technologies such as carbon sequestration, which are otherwise impossible for mobile applications. Alternatively, distributed energy generation schemes (such as small scale renewable energy sources) could be used, possibly associated with hydrogen stations.
Aside from the energy generation, hydrogen production could be centralized, distributed or a mixture of both. While generating hydrogen at centralized primary energy plants promises higher hydrogen production efficiency, difficulties in high-volume, long range hydrogen transportation (due to factors such as hydrogen damage and the ease of hydrogen diffusion through solid materials) makes electrical energy distribution attractive within a hydrogen economy.
In such a scenario, small regional plants or even local filling stations could generate hydrogen using energy provided through the electrical distribution grid or methane pyrolysis of natural gas. While hydrogen generation efficiency is likely to be lower than for centralized hydrogen generation, losses in hydrogen transport could make such a scheme more efficient in terms of the primary energy used per kilogram of hydrogen delivered to the end user.
The proper balance between hydrogen distribution, long-distance electrical distribution and destination converted pyrolysis of natural gas is one of the primary questions that arises about the hydrogen economy.
Again the dilemmas of production sources and transportation of hydrogen can now be overcome using on site (home, business, or fuel station) generation of hydrogen from off grid renewable sources."
EMsmile (
talk) 10:42, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
I think the ladder graphic in https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/01/cleantech-talk-chemical-engineer-paul-martin-reflects-on-liebreichs-hydrogen-ladder-hopium-part-1/ would be worth adding. I see there is an old svg at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Einsatzbereiche_sauberen_Wasserstoffs.svg
@ Moowahg3 How did you get that and are you able to upload a new version? Chidgk1 ( talk) 19:03, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that current title is sufficient and proposed title is too broad. ( non-admin closure) Bait30 Talk 2 me pls? 06:13, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Hydrogen economy → Uses of hydrogen – Easier to understand Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:04, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
There is a lot of detail here (including also the experimental production methods near the end), so how about I move the production info to Hydrogen production and excerpt back the lead? Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
There is a lot of detail here so how about I move the storage info to Hydrogen storage and excerpt back the lead? Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
The section has some detail so how about I move it to Hydrogen infrastructure and excerpt back the lead? Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
If we moved the safety section to Hydrogen safety we could also move their Hindenburg pic out of the lead and excerpt the lead back here. What do you think? Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:36, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
excerpt not needed, moved term to "See also". This should (in theory) be about the safety of the hydrogen economy not the safety of hydrogen itself.[1] This rationale makes no sense to me. To the degree that hydrogen is unsafe, practical use of hydrogen (which is what the hydrogen economy is) is also unsafe. Understanding safety issues is critical to understanding what the practical uses of hydrogen are and are not. I will reinstate the section now. Clayoquot ( talk | contribs) 19:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Second graphic in article. It is from before the full scale invasion of Ukraine so is not “contemporary” Chidgk1 ( talk) 17:52, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
I came here to improve the readability of the lead. I made some small changes to the first paragraph but have stopped as others might be in a better position to work on this (or might disagree with my changes). One question that I immediately have for the first paragraph of the lead: We use the verb "to decarbonize" but without explaining to the reader what this means. I've seen in other places that we wikilinked it to climate change mitigation but I don't think that is sufficiently clear. The internet explains "to decarbonise" as follows: ""To decarbonise" means to reduce or eliminate the carbon emissions associated with a particular process, industry, or economy." So I guess it's just shorthand for reducing CO2 emissions. Can we therefore build that into this first paragraph?
For what it's worth (and I know many of you dislike Chat-GPT), this is what Chat-GPT proposes as a first sentence for this article (sentence too long): "The hydrogen economy is a proposed system where hydrogen, produced using various renewable energy sources or by electrolysis of water, serves as a significant energy carrier for various applications, including transportation, heating, and electricity generation
".
And I think this article is also a very good example of the usefulness of the readability script: The entire third and fourth paragraph of the lead lights up in dark red. And that text is indeed rather difficult to read and understand for a layperson. Pinging User:Efbrazil in case they are interested in helping with this lead. (I am assuming the merge propose above is not taking place). EMsmile ( talk) 13:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
As of 2023 there are no real alternatives to hydrogen for ammonia production for fertilizer, hydrogenation, hydrocracking, and hydrodesulfurization.
The extent to which hydrogen will be used to decarbonise chemical feedstock, long haul aviation and shipping, and long-term energy storage is likely to be influenced by the evolving production costs of low- and zero-carbon hydrogen.
Estimates of future costs face numerous uncertainties – such as the introduction of carbon taxes, geography and geopolitics of energy, energy prices, technology choices, and their raw material requirements – but it is likely that green or white (underground) hydrogen will see the greatest reductions in production cost over time.EMsmile ( talk) 18:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
By the way, the article uses a wild mixture of decarbonize and decarbonise. It seems to me that the majority of the article is in American English, is that right? If so, I'll add the tag on the talk page and change the British English spellings to American English. EMsmile ( talk) 18:30, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
The third sentence of the lead is not clear enough in my opinion. It currently says: In this context, hydrogen economy encompasses the production of hydrogen and the use of hydrogen in ways that contribute to phasing-out fossil fuels and limiting climate change.
. I think we need to place the emphasis on the "in ways", and I'd like to change it to "in those ways" or "in certain ways". This is to set it apart from the current practice of producing and using hydrogen which is not really focusing on reducing GHGEs. Isn't the key here that for it (the hydrogen economy) to be successful/desirable and a step in the right direction, that the hydrogen needs to be produced in a certain way? By renewable energy sources or by electrolysis of water, right?
EMsmile (
talk) 18:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
In the lead we have this sentence: As part of proposals to limit global warming to 1.5 °C, it is generally envisaged that the future hydrogen economy replaces gray hydrogen with blue and predominantly green hydrogen.
. I have a problem with this sentence as I find it hard to grasp for lay persons. Also I don't know if placing the emphasis on 1.5 °C is the best choice when we all know that a) this was an arbitrary goal (to some extent) and b) that we will probably not even reach it, sadly. Therefore, I would change it to: In order for the hydrogen economy to contribute to climate change mitigation in a meaningful way, it is generally envisaged that the future hydrogen economy replaces gray hydrogen with blue and predominantly green hydrogen.
. (although the sentence is still longer and uses more complicated wording than is ideal) Does the ref that is given for the following sentence also apply to this sentence? If so, maybe we could repeat it.
EMsmile (
talk) 16:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Hydrogen economy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 210 days
![]() |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
|
![]() | This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | On 19 February 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Uses of hydrogen. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 210 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 8 sections are present. |
Thank you to Clayoquot plus the other editors for making this article so much better through your revision work from September onwards! Much appreciated. How would you characterise the quality of the article now, are there still problem areas that need addressing or would you say it's pretty much "done" for now? Any remaining weaknesses? What's the reading ease like in your opinion, is some work needed in that regard to improve readability? And some more images maybe? EMsmile ( talk) 10:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
This entire section has no sources. A chunk of it was added in 2007 in this edit. I wonder if this text is any good (in which case sources should be found) or if it should be taken out?
"A key tradeoff: centralized vs. distributed production
In a future full hydrogen economy, primary energy sources and feedstock would be used to produce hydrogen gas as stored energy for use in various sectors of the economy. Producing hydrogen from primary energy sources other than coal and oil would result in lower production of the greenhouse gases characteristic of the combustion of coal and oil fossil energy resources. The importance of non-polluting methane pyrolysis of natural gas is becoming a recognized method for using current natural gas infrastructure investment to produce hydrogen and no greenhouse gas. citation needed
One key feature of a hydrogen economy would be that in mobile applications (primarily vehicular transport) energy generation and use could be decoupled. The primary energy source would need no longer travel with the vehicle, as it currently does with hydrocarbon fuels. Instead of tailpipes creating dispersed emissions, the energy (and pollution) could be generated from point sources such as large-scale, centralized facilities with improved efficiency. This would allow the possibility of technologies such as carbon sequestration, which are otherwise impossible for mobile applications. Alternatively, distributed energy generation schemes (such as small scale renewable energy sources) could be used, possibly associated with hydrogen stations.
Aside from the energy generation, hydrogen production could be centralized, distributed or a mixture of both. While generating hydrogen at centralized primary energy plants promises higher hydrogen production efficiency, difficulties in high-volume, long range hydrogen transportation (due to factors such as hydrogen damage and the ease of hydrogen diffusion through solid materials) makes electrical energy distribution attractive within a hydrogen economy.
In such a scenario, small regional plants or even local filling stations could generate hydrogen using energy provided through the electrical distribution grid or methane pyrolysis of natural gas. While hydrogen generation efficiency is likely to be lower than for centralized hydrogen generation, losses in hydrogen transport could make such a scheme more efficient in terms of the primary energy used per kilogram of hydrogen delivered to the end user.
The proper balance between hydrogen distribution, long-distance electrical distribution and destination converted pyrolysis of natural gas is one of the primary questions that arises about the hydrogen economy.
Again the dilemmas of production sources and transportation of hydrogen can now be overcome using on site (home, business, or fuel station) generation of hydrogen from off grid renewable sources."
EMsmile (
talk) 10:42, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
I think the ladder graphic in https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/01/cleantech-talk-chemical-engineer-paul-martin-reflects-on-liebreichs-hydrogen-ladder-hopium-part-1/ would be worth adding. I see there is an old svg at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Einsatzbereiche_sauberen_Wasserstoffs.svg
@ Moowahg3 How did you get that and are you able to upload a new version? Chidgk1 ( talk) 19:03, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is that current title is sufficient and proposed title is too broad. ( non-admin closure) Bait30 Talk 2 me pls? 06:13, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Hydrogen economy → Uses of hydrogen – Easier to understand Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:04, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
There is a lot of detail here (including also the experimental production methods near the end), so how about I move the production info to Hydrogen production and excerpt back the lead? Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
There is a lot of detail here so how about I move the storage info to Hydrogen storage and excerpt back the lead? Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:27, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
The section has some detail so how about I move it to Hydrogen infrastructure and excerpt back the lead? Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
If we moved the safety section to Hydrogen safety we could also move their Hindenburg pic out of the lead and excerpt the lead back here. What do you think? Chidgk1 ( talk) 07:36, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
excerpt not needed, moved term to "See also". This should (in theory) be about the safety of the hydrogen economy not the safety of hydrogen itself.[1] This rationale makes no sense to me. To the degree that hydrogen is unsafe, practical use of hydrogen (which is what the hydrogen economy is) is also unsafe. Understanding safety issues is critical to understanding what the practical uses of hydrogen are and are not. I will reinstate the section now. Clayoquot ( talk | contribs) 19:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Second graphic in article. It is from before the full scale invasion of Ukraine so is not “contemporary” Chidgk1 ( talk) 17:52, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
I came here to improve the readability of the lead. I made some small changes to the first paragraph but have stopped as others might be in a better position to work on this (or might disagree with my changes). One question that I immediately have for the first paragraph of the lead: We use the verb "to decarbonize" but without explaining to the reader what this means. I've seen in other places that we wikilinked it to climate change mitigation but I don't think that is sufficiently clear. The internet explains "to decarbonise" as follows: ""To decarbonise" means to reduce or eliminate the carbon emissions associated with a particular process, industry, or economy." So I guess it's just shorthand for reducing CO2 emissions. Can we therefore build that into this first paragraph?
For what it's worth (and I know many of you dislike Chat-GPT), this is what Chat-GPT proposes as a first sentence for this article (sentence too long): "The hydrogen economy is a proposed system where hydrogen, produced using various renewable energy sources or by electrolysis of water, serves as a significant energy carrier for various applications, including transportation, heating, and electricity generation
".
And I think this article is also a very good example of the usefulness of the readability script: The entire third and fourth paragraph of the lead lights up in dark red. And that text is indeed rather difficult to read and understand for a layperson. Pinging User:Efbrazil in case they are interested in helping with this lead. (I am assuming the merge propose above is not taking place). EMsmile ( talk) 13:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
As of 2023 there are no real alternatives to hydrogen for ammonia production for fertilizer, hydrogenation, hydrocracking, and hydrodesulfurization.
The extent to which hydrogen will be used to decarbonise chemical feedstock, long haul aviation and shipping, and long-term energy storage is likely to be influenced by the evolving production costs of low- and zero-carbon hydrogen.
Estimates of future costs face numerous uncertainties – such as the introduction of carbon taxes, geography and geopolitics of energy, energy prices, technology choices, and their raw material requirements – but it is likely that green or white (underground) hydrogen will see the greatest reductions in production cost over time.EMsmile ( talk) 18:29, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
By the way, the article uses a wild mixture of decarbonize and decarbonise. It seems to me that the majority of the article is in American English, is that right? If so, I'll add the tag on the talk page and change the British English spellings to American English. EMsmile ( talk) 18:30, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
The third sentence of the lead is not clear enough in my opinion. It currently says: In this context, hydrogen economy encompasses the production of hydrogen and the use of hydrogen in ways that contribute to phasing-out fossil fuels and limiting climate change.
. I think we need to place the emphasis on the "in ways", and I'd like to change it to "in those ways" or "in certain ways". This is to set it apart from the current practice of producing and using hydrogen which is not really focusing on reducing GHGEs. Isn't the key here that for it (the hydrogen economy) to be successful/desirable and a step in the right direction, that the hydrogen needs to be produced in a certain way? By renewable energy sources or by electrolysis of water, right?
EMsmile (
talk) 18:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
In the lead we have this sentence: As part of proposals to limit global warming to 1.5 °C, it is generally envisaged that the future hydrogen economy replaces gray hydrogen with blue and predominantly green hydrogen.
. I have a problem with this sentence as I find it hard to grasp for lay persons. Also I don't know if placing the emphasis on 1.5 °C is the best choice when we all know that a) this was an arbitrary goal (to some extent) and b) that we will probably not even reach it, sadly. Therefore, I would change it to: In order for the hydrogen economy to contribute to climate change mitigation in a meaningful way, it is generally envisaged that the future hydrogen economy replaces gray hydrogen with blue and predominantly green hydrogen.
. (although the sentence is still longer and uses more complicated wording than is ideal) Does the ref that is given for the following sentence also apply to this sentence? If so, maybe we could repeat it.
EMsmile (
talk) 16:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)