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I noticed this article has an accuracy note at the top of it. Looking through the comments here, I can see lots of discussion on NPOV issues (understandably), but I'm not seeing anything that really amounts to an accuracy dispute. Are there particular statements in this article which somebody believes to be fundamentally untrue (as opposed to just being stated poorly)? -- Foogod 02:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, I agree that the categorization of this article as it stands is problematic, however it sounds like nobody here believes this constitues a factual dispute per se, so the current banner presumably should be removed (which I will do now). As for what to replace it with, to be honest I think it's tangential enough to the actual content of the article that it probably doesn't warrant an advisory banner of any sort (in my opinion banners should only be necessary if there are issues with actual content of the article text which readers need to be aware of while reading it).
On the subject of what categories this page belongs in, I'm currently trying to work out some of the criteria for some of these things on Category-talk:Pseudophysics and elsewhere. As a result, this page may appear to be miscategorized for a little bit while the definitions and criteria are in flux, but I hope that once we nail some of this down it'll be easier to more conclusively say how things should be done (bear with me on this :) ). -- Foogod 22:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Mills has now published exact, closed-form solutions to 19 molecules that rely only on physical constants. This is a huge advance in the state of the art and beggars the claims that CQM is 'irreproducible' or has no practical benefits. I propose that the article be redesigned to acknowledge this breakthrough. Rather than just describe the 'controversy', a new section should be added that describes, fairly and accurately, the results. The spreadsheets are available for anyone to review and critique, and it's quite easy to verify that they are indeed what they claim. Ronnotel 21:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
few dedicated individuals can spam wikipedia and keep their spam page afloat as long as they want whenever there is monetary gain from doing so (such as investments into this "theory") The science has always been attacked by frauds as much as mailboxes now by 419 scam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.206.194.61 ( talk • contribs) 11:17- 13:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
For reasons which should be obvious.... -- CH 06:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I have tried to add sigs to all the unsigned or mis-signed comments above, to help keep track of who said what. Some users broke up comments of other users, so while I tried hard to avoid misattributions, I might have made a goof or two.
Some useful information for Wikipedians evaluating the reliability of the current version of this article:
I added a link to an article from the Princeton Packet. Someone should incorporate these cute quotes into a new neutralized version of the article:
It's the most important discovery of all time
— Randell Mills (BlackLight Power, Inc.)
It is the overwhelming view of the scientific community that Dr. Mills' claims are without scientific merit. [The fact that he has attracted funding reflects] a problem in a democracy that is undereducated in science.
— Paul Grant (Electric Power Research Institute, Palo Alto, CA)
[Mills] said he could lower hydrogen atoms below ground state...To any physicist, the idea of putting hydrogen below ground (the lowest energy a molecule can have) is preposterous. In all of the physical world there are only a handful of solvable problems. But of the handful, hydrogen is one. There is no system in the universe physicists understand better than hydrogen.
— Robert Park (Physics, University of Maryland)
I see that recent anon edits of the article include:
The current tone of the article is so credulous that I am concerned that Mills himself, or an admiring associate (the Dr. Mills phrase does tend to suggest this possibility), may be editing the article to remove any information tending not to suggest that "hydrino theory" represents a major scientific advance. -- CH 09:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, Ronnotel ( talk · contribs) has not answered my query on his talk page, but this handle has been used by Ron Baakkonen, who has made similar pro-Mills edits to a Yahoo newsgroup. Given the concerns expressed above about possible shilling, I want to know whether he is associated in any way with the Hydrino Study Group, or has any financial stake in any Randell Mills ventures. -- CH 09:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I mentioned the anomalous perihelion advance of Mercury earlier; it was enough to show that Newtonian gravitation was an incomplete picture. Yet Newtonian gravity works well enough for explaining orbital motion, etc. You are saying, in analogy, that Newtonian gravitation is good enough despite its shortcomings (plus, nobody has done anything useful with Mills's models yet). That's hardly in the spirit of scientific inquiry; it is the discrepancies that disprove old models and lead the way to new ones. An error like the bond angle of water is simply too large to ignore. - mak o 20:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is it a cranky website? Surely it should be contraversial or something different Dracion 19:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC).
Looks like some, possibly an anon using IP
24.9.125.99 (
talk ·
contribs) deleted a link to a paper critical of "hydrino theory". --
CH
01:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, never mind, my goof. The link was not deleted, just moved to the references and reformated, which is indeed better.
But everyone, please try to help me make sure that links are given some context and are kept organized. This adds a great deal of value for our readers. -- CH 01:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Since the observed behavior of quantum-mechanical systems is so bizarre, I was eager to see how this theory attempts to explain it using only classical mechanics. But, either it doesn't, or this article just doesn't go into much detail on the subject.
We are told that the results of the double-slit experiment with electrons has something to do with photon interactions (but what?) but we are not told why the experiment also works with photons (and other particles). Classically, light is a wave, and a diffraction pattern is an expected result. But classically, light is not quantized and photons should not exist. In fact, the double-slit experiment can be performed with single photons and the tiny dots caused by individual photon hits gradually build up to form a diffraction pattern. [1] Classically, we shouldn't even expect to see individual dots, let alone a gradually-formed pattern. Does the theory explain this somehow, or does it just assume that photons still behave according to non-classical rules?
Furthermore, how can you explain away quantum entanglement? Experiments with lasers, beam splitters, and downconverters show that it is possible to split light into two entangled beams, such that, despite the beams having entirely different destinations, "measuring" one of them dramatically changes the quantum behavior of the other, instantly. You can make a diffraction pattern disappear by interrupting a seemingly unrelated beam in another room which never reconnects with the original experiment. This is the "spooky" experiment that scares most prospective theorists away from proposing classical explanations for quantum behavior, but it isn't mentioned in this article as far as I can see. Can someone who knows about this stuff please post such an explanation, if it exists? If this theory explains entanglement, I would be excited to learn how it does so. 01:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC) (edit: logged in to make my name show up here :P) Xezlec 01:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
And I just thought of this, so let me add it: what about electron tunneling? It is well known to semiconductor manufacturers that electrons can tunnel through thin insulators even though, classically, the insulator in question should be sufficiently resistive to prevent electrons from getting through at all. In modern semiconductors, the insulators are so thin that, despite their very high classical resistance, they stop very little current from travelling "magically" through them. This effect was predicted by quantum mechanics to a high degree of precision, but I can't guess how the Hydrino Theory might be getting around it. Again, let me know. Xezlec 01:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This guy either does not understand quantum mechanics, or pretends that he does not. He basically uses semi-classical aproach, I have browsed his book, and he uses trickery all way.
For instance, he uses the same calculation for "electron as a wave" that is essentialy Schroedinger equation, yet, he seems not even to be aware of that. He uses vague explanation for double-slit experiment which makes no sense, he uses calculation where essential point is not explained for the Aspect experiment (and is indeed the same as for quantum mechanics - as in most cases yet obscures that somehow), there is nonsense all over his book. For instance, he computes energy of beta decay essentially from the conservation laws (which is of course nothing special and does not depend on QM), then for this term - a single difference in energies of states, i.e. particles - he goes to state "we get the weak field by taking a gradient" - a complete nonsense, since he does not have a potential field defined at all. And this is all over the book.
However, his classical theory with no-radiation condition is not nonsense (yet it was not him who analysed this condition first) - indeed, it is interesting question can one get such a model of atom. I have not checked his computations, but this part is at least plausible - but so what? It seems he never carries computations in detail, yet, buries essential missing points in some well established facts, waves hands as one would say.
Very interesting are his cooked-up formulas for masses of particles in terms of fine structure constant. It is quite obvious he has cooked them up (by refering to some "transition" state which is never computed, yet, has just the right parameters to fit into a formula), but still, it is interesting and should be mentioned.
It seems that cooking-up is quite a speciality of his, and he is quite skilled in that. No wonder he managed to raise funds. Whether he persuaded himself in this "theory" or not is not clear. But it is at least clear that if he has, he has no idea what some basic facets of QM are about (for instance, his critique of Schroedinger equation as "not satisfying non-radiation condition" reveals that) - he basically writes his own naive understanding of explanations of some phenomena semi-clasically (like photo-electric effect) - nothing new there really, he is just not aware what he is really using there. Either that, or he is a deliberately misleading in his claims that this is a "theory". Quite possibly both - that he is both dishonest and does not understand what he is talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvarako ( talk • contribs) 03:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Re: Mako098765, edit of 16:36 30 Oct 2006: "brackets are for clarification".
Square brackets are not a part of conventional English punctuation. I don't understand their usage here. Sci1 17:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Without taking sides, I suspect that more heat than light is being generated here because of a tendency to absolute statements. A few principles might be borne in mind in understanding the import of the above and the design of the article itself.
1 Novelty does not condemn
Clearly, we would not make any progress if new ideas were automatically criticized because they were not consonant with 'accepted' theory.
2 Immaculate conception is unlikely
It is a rare event for a theory in any context to have been developed to perfection on first being announced. It is easy to find many cases where development, tweaking, correction, refinement, and extension are continuous processes. We have yet to see the book closed on any topic - such claims have been made from time to time and promptly shown to be premature by events.
3 A detected flaw is not necessarily fatal
Looking for flaws in a theory is part of the process. Finding one is not necessarily the end of the story. Commonly, efforts are made to fix it. See 2. Condemning a whole theory because a flaw in the presentation is detected is inappropriate. It is expected that efforts be made to show that either it can be fixed or that the ramifications are demonstrably such as to undermine the premises. In the absence of the latter - verified by peer review - any remark is devoid of merit. Fairness also allows a proponent a chance at rebuttal, and so on - the normal process of science.
4 Preparedness to see the unexpected is an open mind
There seems to be inordinate glee at the failure of an attempted experimental replication to reproduce the magnitude of a claimed effect. This was true at several points in the cold fusion story, and we see it here again. The data rule, OK? If a result is anomalous (= not fitting current understanding) it does not make it go away simply because. Events not otherwise explicable are still events, and deserve rational consideration irrespective of whether they are "only" 19 or 90 or 99% of that previously reported.
5 Enthusiasm may overreach
It is not unusual for an enthusiast to see possibilities rather faster than the ideas can be thought through. There are commonly limits to the applicability of ideas - Newtonian mechanics is an apposite example. Whether or not an author is silly for being too much a promoter of a panacea, it is a human failing and does not, of itself, discredit the original idea - ad hominem arguments are properly criticized, but not often enough recognized.
6 Authority is not an excuse
Any utterance that has as its only claim to merit the authority, reputation or status of the speaker is valueless. The chain of reasoning must be present, and presented. Typically, this is through citations of works that have been themselves subject to review in the same way. It has to be a demonstrable argument, not a mere assertion. Of course, even then, it could turn out to be wrong, but that itself has to be open to demonstration (see 4). Browbeating is not a scientific approach, it is bullying; it bespeaks bias, dogma, vested interest, irrationality, ignorance ... The motto is "take nobody's word for it - not even mine".
I see more than a few violations of these principles in the present context. Editing them out would leave a much tidier page. If the theory is wrong, or faked, it should be relatively easy to show it, but not by shouting. If the guy is a fraud, it will emerge naturally, not by throwing scurrilous remarks - in either direction.
147.8.34.175 05:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC) BWD
Cut from the article:
Godeke goes on to conclude:Naturally, it is very tempting to hypothesize from this that the existence of Planck's constant is implied by classical electromagnetic theory augmented by the conditions of no radiation. Such a hypothesis would be essentially equivalent to suggesting a ' theory of nature' in which all stable particles (or aggregates) are merely nonradiating charge-current distributions whose mechanical properties are electromagnetic in origin.
We certainly do not believe that this paper gives a sufficient foundation for hypothesizing a theory with such profound implications. Rather, we hope this paper will serve as a foundation and as a stimulus for much further investigation of nonradiating distributions.
I'm not sure what to do with this material. It's clearly an appeal to authority. Perhaps this stuff could serve as the basis for an article on non-radiation. - mak o 06:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
How can this be reconciled with quantum entanglement and such? Bell's theorem. Shouldn't this problem be mentioned in the article? Blacklight's website's explanation is total BS. Luke -- 208.120.106.136 00:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
As I understand it, hydrino theory is based on an alternative to quantum mechanics in describing the electromagnetic interactions between electrons and nucleus. However, mainstream (quantum based) physics makes successful predictions of phenomena mediated by other forces, specifically the strong and weak nuclear forces, using the same kind of calculations. It would be interesting to see an explanation of the Mills' theory of what holds the nucleus together, for example. I don't mean for this to sound like a demand for a complete explanation of everything; but it would be helpful to see how Mills' theories cross from
to
QM prescribes exactly the same method of calculation (i.e. find the eigenstates of the Hamiltonian) for both. What does Mills' theory say?
JohnAspinall 16:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I have started adding material describing the differences between Mills' theory and mainstream classical electromagnetics, i.e. Maxwell's equations, beginning with the free electron model.
I would be happy to provide a plot of the electric potential (as calculated from Maxwell's equations) around the charge distribution in the Mills electron, showing that in mainstream physics the electric field is not normal to its surface. (Mills claims it is normal.) However without a corresponding plot calculated from the equivalent Mills' equations, this would probably be a violation of NPOV. If someone knowledgeable in Mills' theory would provide the formula for the field from a point charge, I will do the calculation both ways. (Similar comments apply to the force from a current.)
JohnAspinall 02:57, 12 October 2007 (UTC) and edits JohnAspinall 21:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Mills has published a new chapter that purportedly describes experimental confirmation of his theory regarding the anti-gravitational effect of so-called hyperbolic electrons. The experimental setup seems fairly straight forward - create hyperbolic electrons by shooting a beam of free electrons of the correct energy through a perpendicular beam of neutral atoms (e.g. He, Ne, Ar, etc.). He then measures the upward (anti-gravitational) deflection of the electrons by the ratio of current densities at two grounded electrode plates, one above and one below the electron beam, both positioned about 100mm behind the atomic beam. He varies the electron energy and sees deflectional peaks that correspond, roughly, to quantum modes predicted by his theory. This seems like a pretty interesting phenomena - particularly because it should be easy to replicate. Anyone else think this is worth mentioning on the page? GenMan2000 15:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The intro has the following sentence: "Mills first put forth his proposition of the hydrino in 1991, claiming to explain the purported excess heat reported by cold fusion experimentalists (which has since been demonstrated to be an experimental artifact)." This sentence implies that "excess heat reported by cold fusion experimentalists is an experimental artifact". As far as I can see, the cold fusion article does not support this view. Also, the 2006 DOE panel does not support this statement. Could you clarify how you justify it ? Thanks. Pcarbonn ( talk) 22:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The link to Bob Park's blog does not say that excess heat is an artifact either. The 1989 DOE panel had not demonstrated that it was an artifact either. Pcarbonn ( talk) 22:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
One of the main dis-proofs of Mills' work is that atomic orbitals can be imaged. Pcarbonn asked how that is done. This is discussed elsewhere in Wikipedia, at least in part, but here is an attempt to explain it.
I've added the POV tag for the following reasons:
Pcarbonn ( talk) 22:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Please explain why I would have to make the list here instead as with tags in the article. The only way to respond to this tag is to provide a quote. Justifying the sentence in the talk page is NOT the wikipedia way to address it. Your explanation on atomic orbital imaging clearly shows that this is an indirect method, and does not support the view that this is "direct imaging". I have not said that your statements were nonsensical. References to other wikipedia articles are not valid: "Articles and posts on Wikipedia should never be used as third-party sources" (see verifiability). How can you prove that there is only only peer-reviewed evaluation ? Unless quoted, this is WP:OR. Rendering your sentence is easy: "Mills says that the universe is accelerating as it expands". Anything else is an attempt to throw point of view in the sentence. Pcarbonn ( talk) 21:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
We clearly disagree on the standard of quality set by wikipedia policies. I would suggest that we both read again WP:verifiability, WP:NPOV and WP:OR before we continue this discussion. Pcarbonn ( talk) 08:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Here are some statements from WP:Verifiability that I find relevant to our discussion:
From WP:NPOV:
And from WP:Avoid:
Pcarbonn ( talk) 17:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I see that we are not progressing. Please realize that I'm not saying that your statement are wrong: I'm saying that they could be seen as wrong, and need more references. Again, article on living persons require a high level of standard. If general rules are not clear enough, let's take some examples: 1. "physical evidence such as the direct imaging of atomic orbitals": first, why don't you insert a good reference in the article ? It's easy, and it would be informative to the reader. I could not find any such reference in the atomic orbital article, which does not talk at all about imaging. Actually, that's why quoting other articles is not accepted in the guideline: you never know how that article will evolve. Second, I still challenge the "direct". When you think about it, the imaging you describe uses QM to derive the image: it looks like a circular reasoning, don't you think ? Better to say "physical evidence such as the imaging of atomic orbitals", without "direct", and with a reference: this would be NPOV to me.
2. "Mills' work is not accepted by the scientific community, and has been largely ignored by it." I checked WP:Fringe#Reporting on the levels of acceptance, and I now accept this statement.
3. "The only peer-reviewed evaluation, published in 2005 by Andreas Rathke of ESA". Your argument that one just has to look to find out falls into WP:NOR. It is actually not possible to check ALL peer-reviewed journals. It is similar to Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. Better to say "One peer-reviewed evaluation, ..."
4. "Mills goes to great mathematical length..." Why do we need to say that ? To imply that the theory is not valid ? This is an unnecessary judgement, because it does not help in understanding the issue. Are we saying that QM goes to great mathematical length to derive atomic spectrums ? No, and we shouldn't. Better to say : "Mills uses mathematics to derive..."
5. section on dark matter. I don't follow the logic. If dark matter is made of stable, non-ionized hydrino, they do not emit light according to Mills: this is in line with "dark matter is collisionless". When they are ionized, they are not dark matter anymore, and can react to create hydrino molecules. So, there is no contradiction, and the current statement is wrong. Furthermore, this is another example of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. It must be quoted.
Pcarbonn ( talk) 21:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I noticed this article has an accuracy note at the top of it. Looking through the comments here, I can see lots of discussion on NPOV issues (understandably), but I'm not seeing anything that really amounts to an accuracy dispute. Are there particular statements in this article which somebody believes to be fundamentally untrue (as opposed to just being stated poorly)? -- Foogod 02:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Frankly, I agree that the categorization of this article as it stands is problematic, however it sounds like nobody here believes this constitues a factual dispute per se, so the current banner presumably should be removed (which I will do now). As for what to replace it with, to be honest I think it's tangential enough to the actual content of the article that it probably doesn't warrant an advisory banner of any sort (in my opinion banners should only be necessary if there are issues with actual content of the article text which readers need to be aware of while reading it).
On the subject of what categories this page belongs in, I'm currently trying to work out some of the criteria for some of these things on Category-talk:Pseudophysics and elsewhere. As a result, this page may appear to be miscategorized for a little bit while the definitions and criteria are in flux, but I hope that once we nail some of this down it'll be easier to more conclusively say how things should be done (bear with me on this :) ). -- Foogod 22:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Mills has now published exact, closed-form solutions to 19 molecules that rely only on physical constants. This is a huge advance in the state of the art and beggars the claims that CQM is 'irreproducible' or has no practical benefits. I propose that the article be redesigned to acknowledge this breakthrough. Rather than just describe the 'controversy', a new section should be added that describes, fairly and accurately, the results. The spreadsheets are available for anyone to review and critique, and it's quite easy to verify that they are indeed what they claim. Ronnotel 21:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
few dedicated individuals can spam wikipedia and keep their spam page afloat as long as they want whenever there is monetary gain from doing so (such as investments into this "theory") The science has always been attacked by frauds as much as mailboxes now by 419 scam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.206.194.61 ( talk • contribs) 11:17- 13:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
For reasons which should be obvious.... -- CH 06:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I have tried to add sigs to all the unsigned or mis-signed comments above, to help keep track of who said what. Some users broke up comments of other users, so while I tried hard to avoid misattributions, I might have made a goof or two.
Some useful information for Wikipedians evaluating the reliability of the current version of this article:
I added a link to an article from the Princeton Packet. Someone should incorporate these cute quotes into a new neutralized version of the article:
It's the most important discovery of all time
— Randell Mills (BlackLight Power, Inc.)
It is the overwhelming view of the scientific community that Dr. Mills' claims are without scientific merit. [The fact that he has attracted funding reflects] a problem in a democracy that is undereducated in science.
— Paul Grant (Electric Power Research Institute, Palo Alto, CA)
[Mills] said he could lower hydrogen atoms below ground state...To any physicist, the idea of putting hydrogen below ground (the lowest energy a molecule can have) is preposterous. In all of the physical world there are only a handful of solvable problems. But of the handful, hydrogen is one. There is no system in the universe physicists understand better than hydrogen.
— Robert Park (Physics, University of Maryland)
I see that recent anon edits of the article include:
The current tone of the article is so credulous that I am concerned that Mills himself, or an admiring associate (the Dr. Mills phrase does tend to suggest this possibility), may be editing the article to remove any information tending not to suggest that "hydrino theory" represents a major scientific advance. -- CH 09:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, Ronnotel ( talk · contribs) has not answered my query on his talk page, but this handle has been used by Ron Baakkonen, who has made similar pro-Mills edits to a Yahoo newsgroup. Given the concerns expressed above about possible shilling, I want to know whether he is associated in any way with the Hydrino Study Group, or has any financial stake in any Randell Mills ventures. -- CH 09:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I mentioned the anomalous perihelion advance of Mercury earlier; it was enough to show that Newtonian gravitation was an incomplete picture. Yet Newtonian gravity works well enough for explaining orbital motion, etc. You are saying, in analogy, that Newtonian gravitation is good enough despite its shortcomings (plus, nobody has done anything useful with Mills's models yet). That's hardly in the spirit of scientific inquiry; it is the discrepancies that disprove old models and lead the way to new ones. An error like the bond angle of water is simply too large to ignore. - mak o 20:29, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is it a cranky website? Surely it should be contraversial or something different Dracion 19:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC).
Looks like some, possibly an anon using IP
24.9.125.99 (
talk ·
contribs) deleted a link to a paper critical of "hydrino theory". --
CH
01:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, never mind, my goof. The link was not deleted, just moved to the references and reformated, which is indeed better.
But everyone, please try to help me make sure that links are given some context and are kept organized. This adds a great deal of value for our readers. -- CH 01:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Since the observed behavior of quantum-mechanical systems is so bizarre, I was eager to see how this theory attempts to explain it using only classical mechanics. But, either it doesn't, or this article just doesn't go into much detail on the subject.
We are told that the results of the double-slit experiment with electrons has something to do with photon interactions (but what?) but we are not told why the experiment also works with photons (and other particles). Classically, light is a wave, and a diffraction pattern is an expected result. But classically, light is not quantized and photons should not exist. In fact, the double-slit experiment can be performed with single photons and the tiny dots caused by individual photon hits gradually build up to form a diffraction pattern. [1] Classically, we shouldn't even expect to see individual dots, let alone a gradually-formed pattern. Does the theory explain this somehow, or does it just assume that photons still behave according to non-classical rules?
Furthermore, how can you explain away quantum entanglement? Experiments with lasers, beam splitters, and downconverters show that it is possible to split light into two entangled beams, such that, despite the beams having entirely different destinations, "measuring" one of them dramatically changes the quantum behavior of the other, instantly. You can make a diffraction pattern disappear by interrupting a seemingly unrelated beam in another room which never reconnects with the original experiment. This is the "spooky" experiment that scares most prospective theorists away from proposing classical explanations for quantum behavior, but it isn't mentioned in this article as far as I can see. Can someone who knows about this stuff please post such an explanation, if it exists? If this theory explains entanglement, I would be excited to learn how it does so. 01:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC) (edit: logged in to make my name show up here :P) Xezlec 01:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
And I just thought of this, so let me add it: what about electron tunneling? It is well known to semiconductor manufacturers that electrons can tunnel through thin insulators even though, classically, the insulator in question should be sufficiently resistive to prevent electrons from getting through at all. In modern semiconductors, the insulators are so thin that, despite their very high classical resistance, they stop very little current from travelling "magically" through them. This effect was predicted by quantum mechanics to a high degree of precision, but I can't guess how the Hydrino Theory might be getting around it. Again, let me know. Xezlec 01:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
This guy either does not understand quantum mechanics, or pretends that he does not. He basically uses semi-classical aproach, I have browsed his book, and he uses trickery all way.
For instance, he uses the same calculation for "electron as a wave" that is essentialy Schroedinger equation, yet, he seems not even to be aware of that. He uses vague explanation for double-slit experiment which makes no sense, he uses calculation where essential point is not explained for the Aspect experiment (and is indeed the same as for quantum mechanics - as in most cases yet obscures that somehow), there is nonsense all over his book. For instance, he computes energy of beta decay essentially from the conservation laws (which is of course nothing special and does not depend on QM), then for this term - a single difference in energies of states, i.e. particles - he goes to state "we get the weak field by taking a gradient" - a complete nonsense, since he does not have a potential field defined at all. And this is all over the book.
However, his classical theory with no-radiation condition is not nonsense (yet it was not him who analysed this condition first) - indeed, it is interesting question can one get such a model of atom. I have not checked his computations, but this part is at least plausible - but so what? It seems he never carries computations in detail, yet, buries essential missing points in some well established facts, waves hands as one would say.
Very interesting are his cooked-up formulas for masses of particles in terms of fine structure constant. It is quite obvious he has cooked them up (by refering to some "transition" state which is never computed, yet, has just the right parameters to fit into a formula), but still, it is interesting and should be mentioned.
It seems that cooking-up is quite a speciality of his, and he is quite skilled in that. No wonder he managed to raise funds. Whether he persuaded himself in this "theory" or not is not clear. But it is at least clear that if he has, he has no idea what some basic facets of QM are about (for instance, his critique of Schroedinger equation as "not satisfying non-radiation condition" reveals that) - he basically writes his own naive understanding of explanations of some phenomena semi-clasically (like photo-electric effect) - nothing new there really, he is just not aware what he is really using there. Either that, or he is a deliberately misleading in his claims that this is a "theory". Quite possibly both - that he is both dishonest and does not understand what he is talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvarako ( talk • contribs) 03:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Re: Mako098765, edit of 16:36 30 Oct 2006: "brackets are for clarification".
Square brackets are not a part of conventional English punctuation. I don't understand their usage here. Sci1 17:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Without taking sides, I suspect that more heat than light is being generated here because of a tendency to absolute statements. A few principles might be borne in mind in understanding the import of the above and the design of the article itself.
1 Novelty does not condemn
Clearly, we would not make any progress if new ideas were automatically criticized because they were not consonant with 'accepted' theory.
2 Immaculate conception is unlikely
It is a rare event for a theory in any context to have been developed to perfection on first being announced. It is easy to find many cases where development, tweaking, correction, refinement, and extension are continuous processes. We have yet to see the book closed on any topic - such claims have been made from time to time and promptly shown to be premature by events.
3 A detected flaw is not necessarily fatal
Looking for flaws in a theory is part of the process. Finding one is not necessarily the end of the story. Commonly, efforts are made to fix it. See 2. Condemning a whole theory because a flaw in the presentation is detected is inappropriate. It is expected that efforts be made to show that either it can be fixed or that the ramifications are demonstrably such as to undermine the premises. In the absence of the latter - verified by peer review - any remark is devoid of merit. Fairness also allows a proponent a chance at rebuttal, and so on - the normal process of science.
4 Preparedness to see the unexpected is an open mind
There seems to be inordinate glee at the failure of an attempted experimental replication to reproduce the magnitude of a claimed effect. This was true at several points in the cold fusion story, and we see it here again. The data rule, OK? If a result is anomalous (= not fitting current understanding) it does not make it go away simply because. Events not otherwise explicable are still events, and deserve rational consideration irrespective of whether they are "only" 19 or 90 or 99% of that previously reported.
5 Enthusiasm may overreach
It is not unusual for an enthusiast to see possibilities rather faster than the ideas can be thought through. There are commonly limits to the applicability of ideas - Newtonian mechanics is an apposite example. Whether or not an author is silly for being too much a promoter of a panacea, it is a human failing and does not, of itself, discredit the original idea - ad hominem arguments are properly criticized, but not often enough recognized.
6 Authority is not an excuse
Any utterance that has as its only claim to merit the authority, reputation or status of the speaker is valueless. The chain of reasoning must be present, and presented. Typically, this is through citations of works that have been themselves subject to review in the same way. It has to be a demonstrable argument, not a mere assertion. Of course, even then, it could turn out to be wrong, but that itself has to be open to demonstration (see 4). Browbeating is not a scientific approach, it is bullying; it bespeaks bias, dogma, vested interest, irrationality, ignorance ... The motto is "take nobody's word for it - not even mine".
I see more than a few violations of these principles in the present context. Editing them out would leave a much tidier page. If the theory is wrong, or faked, it should be relatively easy to show it, but not by shouting. If the guy is a fraud, it will emerge naturally, not by throwing scurrilous remarks - in either direction.
147.8.34.175 05:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC) BWD
Cut from the article:
Godeke goes on to conclude:Naturally, it is very tempting to hypothesize from this that the existence of Planck's constant is implied by classical electromagnetic theory augmented by the conditions of no radiation. Such a hypothesis would be essentially equivalent to suggesting a ' theory of nature' in which all stable particles (or aggregates) are merely nonradiating charge-current distributions whose mechanical properties are electromagnetic in origin.
We certainly do not believe that this paper gives a sufficient foundation for hypothesizing a theory with such profound implications. Rather, we hope this paper will serve as a foundation and as a stimulus for much further investigation of nonradiating distributions.
I'm not sure what to do with this material. It's clearly an appeal to authority. Perhaps this stuff could serve as the basis for an article on non-radiation. - mak o 06:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
How can this be reconciled with quantum entanglement and such? Bell's theorem. Shouldn't this problem be mentioned in the article? Blacklight's website's explanation is total BS. Luke -- 208.120.106.136 00:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
As I understand it, hydrino theory is based on an alternative to quantum mechanics in describing the electromagnetic interactions between electrons and nucleus. However, mainstream (quantum based) physics makes successful predictions of phenomena mediated by other forces, specifically the strong and weak nuclear forces, using the same kind of calculations. It would be interesting to see an explanation of the Mills' theory of what holds the nucleus together, for example. I don't mean for this to sound like a demand for a complete explanation of everything; but it would be helpful to see how Mills' theories cross from
to
QM prescribes exactly the same method of calculation (i.e. find the eigenstates of the Hamiltonian) for both. What does Mills' theory say?
JohnAspinall 16:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I have started adding material describing the differences between Mills' theory and mainstream classical electromagnetics, i.e. Maxwell's equations, beginning with the free electron model.
I would be happy to provide a plot of the electric potential (as calculated from Maxwell's equations) around the charge distribution in the Mills electron, showing that in mainstream physics the electric field is not normal to its surface. (Mills claims it is normal.) However without a corresponding plot calculated from the equivalent Mills' equations, this would probably be a violation of NPOV. If someone knowledgeable in Mills' theory would provide the formula for the field from a point charge, I will do the calculation both ways. (Similar comments apply to the force from a current.)
JohnAspinall 02:57, 12 October 2007 (UTC) and edits JohnAspinall 21:00, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Mills has published a new chapter that purportedly describes experimental confirmation of his theory regarding the anti-gravitational effect of so-called hyperbolic electrons. The experimental setup seems fairly straight forward - create hyperbolic electrons by shooting a beam of free electrons of the correct energy through a perpendicular beam of neutral atoms (e.g. He, Ne, Ar, etc.). He then measures the upward (anti-gravitational) deflection of the electrons by the ratio of current densities at two grounded electrode plates, one above and one below the electron beam, both positioned about 100mm behind the atomic beam. He varies the electron energy and sees deflectional peaks that correspond, roughly, to quantum modes predicted by his theory. This seems like a pretty interesting phenomena - particularly because it should be easy to replicate. Anyone else think this is worth mentioning on the page? GenMan2000 15:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The intro has the following sentence: "Mills first put forth his proposition of the hydrino in 1991, claiming to explain the purported excess heat reported by cold fusion experimentalists (which has since been demonstrated to be an experimental artifact)." This sentence implies that "excess heat reported by cold fusion experimentalists is an experimental artifact". As far as I can see, the cold fusion article does not support this view. Also, the 2006 DOE panel does not support this statement. Could you clarify how you justify it ? Thanks. Pcarbonn ( talk) 22:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The link to Bob Park's blog does not say that excess heat is an artifact either. The 1989 DOE panel had not demonstrated that it was an artifact either. Pcarbonn ( talk) 22:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
One of the main dis-proofs of Mills' work is that atomic orbitals can be imaged. Pcarbonn asked how that is done. This is discussed elsewhere in Wikipedia, at least in part, but here is an attempt to explain it.
I've added the POV tag for the following reasons:
Pcarbonn ( talk) 22:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Please explain why I would have to make the list here instead as with tags in the article. The only way to respond to this tag is to provide a quote. Justifying the sentence in the talk page is NOT the wikipedia way to address it. Your explanation on atomic orbital imaging clearly shows that this is an indirect method, and does not support the view that this is "direct imaging". I have not said that your statements were nonsensical. References to other wikipedia articles are not valid: "Articles and posts on Wikipedia should never be used as third-party sources" (see verifiability). How can you prove that there is only only peer-reviewed evaluation ? Unless quoted, this is WP:OR. Rendering your sentence is easy: "Mills says that the universe is accelerating as it expands". Anything else is an attempt to throw point of view in the sentence. Pcarbonn ( talk) 21:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
We clearly disagree on the standard of quality set by wikipedia policies. I would suggest that we both read again WP:verifiability, WP:NPOV and WP:OR before we continue this discussion. Pcarbonn ( talk) 08:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Here are some statements from WP:Verifiability that I find relevant to our discussion:
From WP:NPOV:
And from WP:Avoid:
Pcarbonn ( talk) 17:48, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I see that we are not progressing. Please realize that I'm not saying that your statement are wrong: I'm saying that they could be seen as wrong, and need more references. Again, article on living persons require a high level of standard. If general rules are not clear enough, let's take some examples: 1. "physical evidence such as the direct imaging of atomic orbitals": first, why don't you insert a good reference in the article ? It's easy, and it would be informative to the reader. I could not find any such reference in the atomic orbital article, which does not talk at all about imaging. Actually, that's why quoting other articles is not accepted in the guideline: you never know how that article will evolve. Second, I still challenge the "direct". When you think about it, the imaging you describe uses QM to derive the image: it looks like a circular reasoning, don't you think ? Better to say "physical evidence such as the imaging of atomic orbitals", without "direct", and with a reference: this would be NPOV to me.
2. "Mills' work is not accepted by the scientific community, and has been largely ignored by it." I checked WP:Fringe#Reporting on the levels of acceptance, and I now accept this statement.
3. "The only peer-reviewed evaluation, published in 2005 by Andreas Rathke of ESA". Your argument that one just has to look to find out falls into WP:NOR. It is actually not possible to check ALL peer-reviewed journals. It is similar to Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. Better to say "One peer-reviewed evaluation, ..."
4. "Mills goes to great mathematical length..." Why do we need to say that ? To imply that the theory is not valid ? This is an unnecessary judgement, because it does not help in understanding the issue. Are we saying that QM goes to great mathematical length to derive atomic spectrums ? No, and we shouldn't. Better to say : "Mills uses mathematics to derive..."
5. section on dark matter. I don't follow the logic. If dark matter is made of stable, non-ionized hydrino, they do not emit light according to Mills: this is in line with "dark matter is collisionless". When they are ionized, they are not dark matter anymore, and can react to create hydrino molecules. So, there is no contradiction, and the current statement is wrong. Furthermore, this is another example of Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position. It must be quoted.
Pcarbonn ( talk) 21:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)