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The article says 900,000 hutus were killed in 1972, but that's a lie. Only 100,000 hutus were killed. And the citations are fake! Just look at this cite: http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/bat/burundi/fburundi1972.htm. Just about every source I know says 100-150,000 hutus were killed in 1972......not 500,000!
In addition, starting the sentence with "Despite the [Hutu]genocide of 1972" is sheer disregard of the fact that a more significant number of Tutsis (about 800,000) were killed by Hutu militia groups in 1994 G.dw.n ( talk) 05:16, 4 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cobenobo ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The Hutus tribe represent 85% of the population. That is one reason which explains why they got away with the genocide. Historically there is only one difference which exists between the three tribes, which are Hutu, Tutsi and Twa. All three tribes speak the same language and have the same traditions. They even follow the same religion. It is their physical appearances and looks which divide them. Hutu’s are believed to have big noses and ears and aren’t as good looking as the Tutsi’s. The Tutsi’s supposedly have long, sharp noses, they are tall and European features. In my research I have found that, in Rwanda not all, possibly most, Hutu's and Tutsi's do not fit this description.
"The Hutu tribe represent 85% of the population. That is one reason which explains why they got away with the genocide." Actually it's the other way round. The fact that Tutsis are a minority made it easier for the Tutsi-led RPF to get away with the genocide against the Hutus, which it started in October 1990 and is still carrying out today.
Are you serious! What do you mean the RPF is causing a genocide! They aren't causing a genocide, they are getting rid of the so-called Hutu extremists who literally macheted 800,000 in 100 days. The RPF indeed have caused some massacres, but their massacres are for a logical reason. The hutu extremists on the other hand were simply trying to wipe out the tutsi. Its not like the RPF were trying to wipe out all the hutus. Besides you really can't judge the RPF at all, because they were the "only" single force that eliminated the barbaric hutu genocidal government. Furthermore they did this with absolutely no so-called international support. The only International "presence" was of the ignorant French who knowingly and willingly trained and armed the ignorant Hutu barbarian government. I think blaming the RPF for anything is just an excuse by the international community for not stopping the inhumane killings. If you really want to know who is getting away with the genocide, it is the Hutus who, even before 1990 were massacering Tutsis and still are massacering Tutsis in the Demorcratic Republic of Congo. In addition, the French are also getting away with it, becaused they armed the genocidal Hutu government responsible for the massacres. So whatever the case may be, next time you want to jump to conclusions, make sure you know the full story of things.-Bcr
Excuse me, but the Tutsi government of Burundi never killed 500,000 Hutus in 1972. It was about 100,000. And by the way, there might of been retaliation by the Rwandan Government in Zaire against Hutu refugees, but their main purpose was to get rid of the hutu extremists who fled into the Congo after the Rwandan Genocide. Some of these same so-called Hutu "refugees" were responsible for many of the massacres in the Rwandan Genocide. -- Bcr 10:03 March 2,2007.-Bcr
This article seems to be solely concerned with similarities, relationship and the distinction between Hutu and Tutsi instead of focusing on Hutu people and what is known about them as a people of the whole African Great Lakes region (and not just Rwanda). The article needs to be sanitized off of historical narratives that have been pushed out by rival ethnic group-dominated governments. This is why a big portion of the article focuses on recent history and ignores the ancient history of Hutu people, their kingdoms, kings, tradition, culture, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bak0ne ( talk • contribs) 00:57, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I wouldn't want to directly dispute the article's neutrality, but oughtn't there to be some kind of exploration of the theory that the Hutu and Tutsi are genetically, historically and ethnically distinct? Both this article and, to a lesser extent the Tutsi article seem to discount that idea without even evaluating the evidence in its favour or how the theory came about (except to blame it on the Belgians). I'm not suggesting that the criticism of the theory is invalid, merely that it ought to be treated with a little more respect and open-mindedness given that the question has not yet been definitively settled.
First off, the Tutsi/Hutu relationship should not be parralled to the Aryan/Dravidian relationship. Intiatially, when the Tutsis met the Hutus, the Tutsis and Hutus lived together in absolute peace until the "Europeons" destroyed their relationship. As for the Ayrans, they were mistreating the Dravdians the first time they met them, and they still are with their so-called "caste system".
Re "Culturally, it is something of an artificial division, based more on class than ethnicity": This is problematic, as it suggests that ethnicity is somehow more "natural" than class when both are arguably social constructs.
A-giau 07:20, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
it says the average height differs.. but who's taller? 131.111.8.96 11:16, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Tutsis were historically taller... Shouldn't something be added to this page about Hutu participation in the Rwandan Genocide? There's a link, but it feels like this should be part of the page, too - I know too little about the actual group to write the addition without some research, but I'll see what I can get started.-- PolPotPie 01:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraphs, added by here by 67.68.45.188:
Who wrote this article? What about the million tutsis macheted in 1994. It seems like the anonymous person just skipped that. By the way, If an extremists is eliminated, that should be a victory. Bucyana is one bad person, not 1 million innocent people. Plus, where is the evidence that 1 million Hutu were displaced in 1990. There were thousands of tutsis killed in 1990 by the barbaric Hutu government.
Why I think the above is POV:
I will have a look at this user's other edits, to Rwandan Genocide. -- Saforrest July 7, 2005 02:36 (UTC)
Both the Hutu and the Tutsi articles seem to be mainly concerned with their distinction from each other and the ethnic tensions leading up to the Rwandan Genocide. Though I'm sure a Rwanda-centered encyclopedia would have separate entries and go more into depth, it could be a while, if ever, before we get any material that is really only relevant to one or the other ethnic group. So until then, what we have is a lot of duplication. I've never worked on an Africa-related article, so I won't call for a vote or whatever it is real Wikipedians do, but I'd like to suggest that Hutu and Tutsi be merged.-- Rschmertz 02:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The POV needs taken out. Keep the article to what is know about the Hutu. This is an encyclopedic article. Brittanica should be a guide. This is not an opinion page or a page of theories. Also, no external links within the body of the page. Imperial78
I haven't clicked on it, because it seems very odd, but there is a link in the See Also section that says "Adams dirty crotch infection". What's that all about?
Back around June, User:Imperial78 deleted a large paragraph discussing the notion of ethnicity. While it is true that that paragraph was getting out of hand toward the end, it seems like something worth discussing, either here or in an article devoted to the combined history of Hutus and Tutsis (and Twa, if appropriate). Does everyone else support that deletion? -- Rschmertz 18:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I've done a good amount of cleanup and expansion. However, I've come to two issues.
Anyone who'd like to try to help me solve these is more than welcome. Picaroon9288 23:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says, that, according to "colonial" set of ideas, Tutsis are Hamitic. I am not going to discuss here a little bit old fashioned post-colonial tone of the article, though phrases such as ""colonialists" came", ""colonialists" divided" sound slightly idiotic for an Encyclopedia. There is another point here. I have always believed that Tutsis were traditionally thought to be Nilotic (related to Luo or Nuer, while Hamitic peoples, such as Hausa, live rather far from this area). Does anybody know if there is some new research on this, or is it simply a mistake? To what branch of Hamitic family do they supposedly belong? Kushitic? Should Nilotic theory be mentioned anyway? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.167.112.21 ( talk • contribs) 16:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
You see nothing like it in europe,we don't refer to europeans from the british isles as "isleotic" even though they bare no physical or cultural resemblance to the sardinians or other italians.The differences between europeans is far more enormous than the difference between africans from the baltic sea down to spain and yet there are no BSE - black sea europeans as there are SSA - sub-saharan africans,their cultural unity is never fractured. I suppose we can thank colonialism for that. 58.178.63.16 ( talk) 03:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
The Hutus tribe represent 85% of the population. That is one reason which explains why they got away with the genocide. Historically there is only one difference which exists between the three tribes, which are Hutu, Tutsi and Twa. All three tribes speak the same language and have the same traditions. They even follow the same religion. It is their physical appearances and looks which divide them. Hutu’s are believed to have big noses and ears and aren’t as good looking as the Tutsi’s. The Tutsi’s supposedly have long, sharp noses, they are tall and European features. In my research I have found that, in Rwanda not all, possibly most, Hutu's and Tutsi's do not fit this description.
"The Hutu tribe represent 85% of the population. That is one reason which explains why they got away with the genocide." Actually it's the other way round. The fact that Tutsis are a minority made it easier for the Tutsi-led RPF to get away with the genocide against the Hutus, which it started in October 1990 and is still carrying out today.
Are you serious! What do you mean the RPF is causing a genocide! They aren't causing a genocide, they are getting rid of the so-called Hutu extremists who literally macheted 800,000 in 100 days. The RPF indeed have caused some massacres, but their massacres are for a logical reason. The hutu extremists on the other hand were simply trying to wipe out the tutsi. Its not like the RPF were trying to wipe out all the hutus. Besides you really can't judge the RPF at all, because they were the "only" single force that eliminated the barbaric hutu genocidal government. Furthermore they did this with absolutely no so-called international support. The only International "presence" was of the ignorant French who knowingly and willingly trained and armed the ignorant Hutu barbarian government. I think blaming the RPF for anything is just an excuse by the international community for not stopping the inhumane killings. If you really want to know who is getting away with the genocide, it is the Hutus who, even before 1990 were massacering Tutsis and still are massacering Tutsis in the Demorcratic Republic of Congo. In addition, the French are also getting away with it, becaused they armed the genocidal Hutu government responsible for the massacres. So whatever the case may be, next time you want to jump to conclusions, make sure you know the full story of things.-Bcr
Excuse me, but the Tutsi government of Burundi never killed 500,000 Hutus in 1972. It was about 100,000. And by the way, there might of been retaliation by the Rwandan Government in Zaire against Hutu refugees, but their main purpose was to get rid of the hutu extremists who fled into the Congo after the Rwandan Genocide. Some of these same so-called Hutu "refugees" were responsible for many of the massacres in the Rwandan Genocide. -- Bcr 10:03 March 2,2007.-Bcr
Well I have proof on these websites: http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/bat/burundi/fburundi1972.htm., http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol2/v2n13bur_body.html So, 500,000 is rediculous. 10:03 March 3,2007.-Bcr
This article and Tutsi both seem to go to some lengths to argue, or at least imply, that the distinction between Tutsi and Hutu was largely invented by colonialists and such. Every normal source I have read, however, pretty much says that there is a real ethnic basis for the distinction, that Hutus were a Bantu farming people who came into the area first, and that Tutsis (probably Nilotic, says Britannica) arrived later, raised cows, and imposed a feudal system of government on the region, while at the same time culturally assimilating with the Hutus. Here's some excerpts from the Britannica article on the Tutsi, for instance:
That is to say, Britannica takes it for granted that the two groups have different origins, and the general idea seems to be that the Tutsi were not originally a Bantu people. This makes a great deal of sense, of course, because the Bantus, who came east across Central Africa from the Cameroon area, would not have had cattle, while Nilotic peoples from further north would. The issue of how clearly distinct they are now is a different one, and the two should not be confused. The real state of things would seem to be that there were originally two different ethnic groups, that before the arrival of the colonizers there was a great deal of cultural assimilation and some mingling of the two groups, and that the Belgians then reified the differences between the two in an artificial way. If this is indeed the consensus position, we should clearly lay that out. john k 20:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Matthew Ross Lippman's review of International Criminal Tribunal For Rwanda Reports of Orders, Documents and Judgements 1995-1997 in Human Rights Quarterly 24.2 (2002) does a fairly good job of distilling what I took to be the standard view in my original post. Allow me to quote at length:
This strikes me as the clearest thing I've read on the subject, in that it clarifies the difference between the broadly held idea that the Tutsi were originally a Nilotic tribe and the discredited racist idea that the Tutsi were a "Hamitic" people, superior to the Black African Hutus. There's also an article from African Studies Review by Cyprian Fisiy called "Of Journeys and Border Crossings: Return of Refugees, Identity, and Reconstruction in Rwanda (Vol. 41 No. 1, April 1998) that discusses the issue:
I will probably try to rework the section in this article (and similar sections in other articles) based on the sources linked or excerpted above. john k 23:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The Twa have just been readded to the infobox. Is this related parameter strictly ethnic one, in which case they aren't related, or a cultural-geographic one, in which case they are? Picaroon 01:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The first section of this article states that Hutus have no physical differences from Tutsis. What? The Belgians seperated the two based exclusively on nose mesurements, head size, and eye characteristics. If there had been no physical differences, the two would never have been seperated. 137.186.222.166
This is part of the problem with race in general. Race is largely based on perceptions of phenotype that are largely untenable or insignificant from a genetic point of view. But perception, not genotype, counts a great deal in terms of how we identify the Self group and various Other groups. There is a sizeable Tutsi population in Philadelphia and there is absolutely no mistaking them for other Bantu-speaking groups. They look different! More in the vein of Ethiopic, but without the characteristic eyes (if ye will excuse the gross generalization). I aim not to pigeonhole anyone, but a few posters inquiring about physical differences might be able to better visualize or imagine part of the racial problem that led to the loss of so much human life.
Sandschie (
talk)
18:28, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Who are the two people pictured? Gillean666 22:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Please see my suggestion for a breakout article at Talk:History of Rwanda#Origins of Tutsi and Hutu breakout article? Thanks, Banyan Tree 06:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The hutu/twa are considered the ancient parents of all africans.
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I've restored (belatedly) the numbers I put in earlier. According to the source, the authors believe that "250,000–500,000 Tutsi and 50,000–500,000 Hutu" died. I know there are other sources out there, and I'm not saying we shouldn't represent those numbers, but please don't give data that isn't backed up by the source cited. Oc t ane [ improve me 20.11.07 1012 (UTC)
Your narrative on post-colonial burundi is not accurate. First in 1972 the genocide was committed against the Hutu population. " http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/bat/burundi/fburundi1972.htm". Conservative estimates are that 100,000 to to 150,000 hutus were killed. However local Burundian estimate that 500,000 hutus were killed. Secondly, there is no reference to the claim that "250,000 to 500,000 tutsis were killed in 1972". The Genocide acknowleged by the United Nations is the 1994, rwandan genocide which is very different from the Burundi genocide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DoctorSibomana ( talk • contribs) 03:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
"the division between the Hutu and the Tutsi (the larger of the other two groups) " -- isn't the Hutu the larger of the two?
Okay first of all I want to announce that all the comments made by bcr were made by me! bcr wasn't a real account. That was just a name I came up with to sign under. This was something I signed under with a different IP address before. However, I was wondering if I could remove all the comments I made on this page. I don't think it's fair to leave my comments if nobody cares about them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.89.14.170 ( talk • contribs) 11:05, March 8, 2009
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hutu/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
A one-sentence long lede, and three subsections. Needs try and conform with article layout of WP:ETHNIC. -- Fsotrain 09 04:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 04:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 18:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. As this will almost certainly result in the removal of the "genetics" section from this article, I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. -- Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
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How can you "criticize" something as "historical revisionism"? Historical revisionism is the act of looking at something from a different perspective. And this doesn't seem to refer to historical denialism, because the context seems to be a sort of Conflict rationalization of events. If the perspective were caused by denialism, it would deny the events of the genocide, not correctly place blame upon the perpetrators of racial dogma (Germans and Belgians). Also, there is no reference to revisionism in the two sources given. I'll temporarily remove the sentence until someone figures out what's being said here... -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 08:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
"Historical revisionism is the act of looking at something from a different perspective" -
No it doesn't. It means a particular thing and included in that definition is "Historical negationism". That is distortion of the historical record for ulterior reasons. It might have been more correct for the user to use the latter term, but the former is equally correct.
"not correctly place blame upon the perpetrators of racial dogma (Germans and Belgians"
The blame for the genocide is with those doing the killing. The ethnic groups existed previously and still exist to this day. Germany and Belgium are not responsible for the genocide - Africans are, specifically the Hutu's. Wikipedia is not the place for your opinion, just the facts.
Your contribution shows why it is important to enforce NPOV standards on this page. Tanila001 ( talk) 18:38, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Two points.
1) "An alternate theory is that the Hutu and Tutsi originally belonged to the same Bantu population, but were artificially divided by German and then Belgian colonists so that the Tutsi minority could serve as local overseers for Berlin and Brussels"
One source cited is not a RS. Footnote 8 is a polemic against Europeans that has no supporting evidence, and is clearly wrong on several counts (DNA evidence, linguistic evidence) and is self published. It has no place in this article and I have removed it.
The other (7) does not make the claim it is being used to support. It states - "When the German and the Belgian colonizers came, Rwanda had one nation – one people sharing the same language, the same political system and the same religion." That does not mean "the people" were from the same ethnic group or had the same history, it means they were living in the same space at the same time under the same system. Many different ethnic groups do so in many parts of the world.
I am removing that sentence pending sources. The cattle division is not a source as it can be shown the they were distinct ethnic groups before Europeans arrived. While the Belgian action should be mentioned as affecting future events, it is irrelevant to the discussion on pre-European ethnicity.
In short, this entire article is a mess of NPOV and RS violations. If you were involved in its creation, please engage here and cite reasons for the inclusion of the tagged section, its contents and its sources. Tanila001 ( talk) 15:52, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Once again removed the un-sourced opinion piece being offered as a plausible theory of origins. The link contains no evidence and is not relevant to a discussion on genetic ancestry. It is a polemic against racism. Nothing wrong with that, but it has no bearing on the discussion.
Tanila001 (
talk)
21:44, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
This article seems to be solely concerned with similarities, relationship and the distinction between Hutu and Tutsi instead of focusing on Hutu people and what is known about them as a people of the whole African Great Lakes region (and not just Rwanda). The article MUST be sanitized off of political narratives and a one-sided version of recent history that has been pushed out by a rival ethnic group-dominated government of Rwanda. This is why a big portion of the article focuses on recent history compared to the ancient history of Hutu people, their kingdoms, kings, tradition, culture, their native language, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bak0ne ( talk • contribs) 01:01, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
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The article says 900,000 hutus were killed in 1972, but that's a lie. Only 100,000 hutus were killed. And the citations are fake! Just look at this cite: http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/bat/burundi/fburundi1972.htm. Just about every source I know says 100-150,000 hutus were killed in 1972......not 500,000!
In addition, starting the sentence with "Despite the [Hutu]genocide of 1972" is sheer disregard of the fact that a more significant number of Tutsis (about 800,000) were killed by Hutu militia groups in 1994 G.dw.n ( talk) 05:16, 4 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cobenobo ( talk • contribs) 17:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The Hutus tribe represent 85% of the population. That is one reason which explains why they got away with the genocide. Historically there is only one difference which exists between the three tribes, which are Hutu, Tutsi and Twa. All three tribes speak the same language and have the same traditions. They even follow the same religion. It is their physical appearances and looks which divide them. Hutu’s are believed to have big noses and ears and aren’t as good looking as the Tutsi’s. The Tutsi’s supposedly have long, sharp noses, they are tall and European features. In my research I have found that, in Rwanda not all, possibly most, Hutu's and Tutsi's do not fit this description.
"The Hutu tribe represent 85% of the population. That is one reason which explains why they got away with the genocide." Actually it's the other way round. The fact that Tutsis are a minority made it easier for the Tutsi-led RPF to get away with the genocide against the Hutus, which it started in October 1990 and is still carrying out today.
Are you serious! What do you mean the RPF is causing a genocide! They aren't causing a genocide, they are getting rid of the so-called Hutu extremists who literally macheted 800,000 in 100 days. The RPF indeed have caused some massacres, but their massacres are for a logical reason. The hutu extremists on the other hand were simply trying to wipe out the tutsi. Its not like the RPF were trying to wipe out all the hutus. Besides you really can't judge the RPF at all, because they were the "only" single force that eliminated the barbaric hutu genocidal government. Furthermore they did this with absolutely no so-called international support. The only International "presence" was of the ignorant French who knowingly and willingly trained and armed the ignorant Hutu barbarian government. I think blaming the RPF for anything is just an excuse by the international community for not stopping the inhumane killings. If you really want to know who is getting away with the genocide, it is the Hutus who, even before 1990 were massacering Tutsis and still are massacering Tutsis in the Demorcratic Republic of Congo. In addition, the French are also getting away with it, becaused they armed the genocidal Hutu government responsible for the massacres. So whatever the case may be, next time you want to jump to conclusions, make sure you know the full story of things.-Bcr
Excuse me, but the Tutsi government of Burundi never killed 500,000 Hutus in 1972. It was about 100,000. And by the way, there might of been retaliation by the Rwandan Government in Zaire against Hutu refugees, but their main purpose was to get rid of the hutu extremists who fled into the Congo after the Rwandan Genocide. Some of these same so-called Hutu "refugees" were responsible for many of the massacres in the Rwandan Genocide. -- Bcr 10:03 March 2,2007.-Bcr
This article seems to be solely concerned with similarities, relationship and the distinction between Hutu and Tutsi instead of focusing on Hutu people and what is known about them as a people of the whole African Great Lakes region (and not just Rwanda). The article needs to be sanitized off of historical narratives that have been pushed out by rival ethnic group-dominated governments. This is why a big portion of the article focuses on recent history and ignores the ancient history of Hutu people, their kingdoms, kings, tradition, culture, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bak0ne ( talk • contribs) 00:57, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I wouldn't want to directly dispute the article's neutrality, but oughtn't there to be some kind of exploration of the theory that the Hutu and Tutsi are genetically, historically and ethnically distinct? Both this article and, to a lesser extent the Tutsi article seem to discount that idea without even evaluating the evidence in its favour or how the theory came about (except to blame it on the Belgians). I'm not suggesting that the criticism of the theory is invalid, merely that it ought to be treated with a little more respect and open-mindedness given that the question has not yet been definitively settled.
First off, the Tutsi/Hutu relationship should not be parralled to the Aryan/Dravidian relationship. Intiatially, when the Tutsis met the Hutus, the Tutsis and Hutus lived together in absolute peace until the "Europeons" destroyed their relationship. As for the Ayrans, they were mistreating the Dravdians the first time they met them, and they still are with their so-called "caste system".
Re "Culturally, it is something of an artificial division, based more on class than ethnicity": This is problematic, as it suggests that ethnicity is somehow more "natural" than class when both are arguably social constructs.
A-giau 07:20, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
it says the average height differs.. but who's taller? 131.111.8.96 11:16, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Tutsis were historically taller... Shouldn't something be added to this page about Hutu participation in the Rwandan Genocide? There's a link, but it feels like this should be part of the page, too - I know too little about the actual group to write the addition without some research, but I'll see what I can get started.-- PolPotPie 01:22, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraphs, added by here by 67.68.45.188:
Who wrote this article? What about the million tutsis macheted in 1994. It seems like the anonymous person just skipped that. By the way, If an extremists is eliminated, that should be a victory. Bucyana is one bad person, not 1 million innocent people. Plus, where is the evidence that 1 million Hutu were displaced in 1990. There were thousands of tutsis killed in 1990 by the barbaric Hutu government.
Why I think the above is POV:
I will have a look at this user's other edits, to Rwandan Genocide. -- Saforrest July 7, 2005 02:36 (UTC)
Both the Hutu and the Tutsi articles seem to be mainly concerned with their distinction from each other and the ethnic tensions leading up to the Rwandan Genocide. Though I'm sure a Rwanda-centered encyclopedia would have separate entries and go more into depth, it could be a while, if ever, before we get any material that is really only relevant to one or the other ethnic group. So until then, what we have is a lot of duplication. I've never worked on an Africa-related article, so I won't call for a vote or whatever it is real Wikipedians do, but I'd like to suggest that Hutu and Tutsi be merged.-- Rschmertz 02:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The POV needs taken out. Keep the article to what is know about the Hutu. This is an encyclopedic article. Brittanica should be a guide. This is not an opinion page or a page of theories. Also, no external links within the body of the page. Imperial78
I haven't clicked on it, because it seems very odd, but there is a link in the See Also section that says "Adams dirty crotch infection". What's that all about?
Back around June, User:Imperial78 deleted a large paragraph discussing the notion of ethnicity. While it is true that that paragraph was getting out of hand toward the end, it seems like something worth discussing, either here or in an article devoted to the combined history of Hutus and Tutsis (and Twa, if appropriate). Does everyone else support that deletion? -- Rschmertz 18:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I've done a good amount of cleanup and expansion. However, I've come to two issues.
Anyone who'd like to try to help me solve these is more than welcome. Picaroon9288 23:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
The article says, that, according to "colonial" set of ideas, Tutsis are Hamitic. I am not going to discuss here a little bit old fashioned post-colonial tone of the article, though phrases such as ""colonialists" came", ""colonialists" divided" sound slightly idiotic for an Encyclopedia. There is another point here. I have always believed that Tutsis were traditionally thought to be Nilotic (related to Luo or Nuer, while Hamitic peoples, such as Hausa, live rather far from this area). Does anybody know if there is some new research on this, or is it simply a mistake? To what branch of Hamitic family do they supposedly belong? Kushitic? Should Nilotic theory be mentioned anyway? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.167.112.21 ( talk • contribs) 16:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
You see nothing like it in europe,we don't refer to europeans from the british isles as "isleotic" even though they bare no physical or cultural resemblance to the sardinians or other italians.The differences between europeans is far more enormous than the difference between africans from the baltic sea down to spain and yet there are no BSE - black sea europeans as there are SSA - sub-saharan africans,their cultural unity is never fractured. I suppose we can thank colonialism for that. 58.178.63.16 ( talk) 03:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
The Hutus tribe represent 85% of the population. That is one reason which explains why they got away with the genocide. Historically there is only one difference which exists between the three tribes, which are Hutu, Tutsi and Twa. All three tribes speak the same language and have the same traditions. They even follow the same religion. It is their physical appearances and looks which divide them. Hutu’s are believed to have big noses and ears and aren’t as good looking as the Tutsi’s. The Tutsi’s supposedly have long, sharp noses, they are tall and European features. In my research I have found that, in Rwanda not all, possibly most, Hutu's and Tutsi's do not fit this description.
"The Hutu tribe represent 85% of the population. That is one reason which explains why they got away with the genocide." Actually it's the other way round. The fact that Tutsis are a minority made it easier for the Tutsi-led RPF to get away with the genocide against the Hutus, which it started in October 1990 and is still carrying out today.
Are you serious! What do you mean the RPF is causing a genocide! They aren't causing a genocide, they are getting rid of the so-called Hutu extremists who literally macheted 800,000 in 100 days. The RPF indeed have caused some massacres, but their massacres are for a logical reason. The hutu extremists on the other hand were simply trying to wipe out the tutsi. Its not like the RPF were trying to wipe out all the hutus. Besides you really can't judge the RPF at all, because they were the "only" single force that eliminated the barbaric hutu genocidal government. Furthermore they did this with absolutely no so-called international support. The only International "presence" was of the ignorant French who knowingly and willingly trained and armed the ignorant Hutu barbarian government. I think blaming the RPF for anything is just an excuse by the international community for not stopping the inhumane killings. If you really want to know who is getting away with the genocide, it is the Hutus who, even before 1990 were massacering Tutsis and still are massacering Tutsis in the Demorcratic Republic of Congo. In addition, the French are also getting away with it, becaused they armed the genocidal Hutu government responsible for the massacres. So whatever the case may be, next time you want to jump to conclusions, make sure you know the full story of things.-Bcr
Excuse me, but the Tutsi government of Burundi never killed 500,000 Hutus in 1972. It was about 100,000. And by the way, there might of been retaliation by the Rwandan Government in Zaire against Hutu refugees, but their main purpose was to get rid of the hutu extremists who fled into the Congo after the Rwandan Genocide. Some of these same so-called Hutu "refugees" were responsible for many of the massacres in the Rwandan Genocide. -- Bcr 10:03 March 2,2007.-Bcr
Well I have proof on these websites: http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/bat/burundi/fburundi1972.htm., http://www.fpif.org/briefs/vol2/v2n13bur_body.html So, 500,000 is rediculous. 10:03 March 3,2007.-Bcr
This article and Tutsi both seem to go to some lengths to argue, or at least imply, that the distinction between Tutsi and Hutu was largely invented by colonialists and such. Every normal source I have read, however, pretty much says that there is a real ethnic basis for the distinction, that Hutus were a Bantu farming people who came into the area first, and that Tutsis (probably Nilotic, says Britannica) arrived later, raised cows, and imposed a feudal system of government on the region, while at the same time culturally assimilating with the Hutus. Here's some excerpts from the Britannica article on the Tutsi, for instance:
That is to say, Britannica takes it for granted that the two groups have different origins, and the general idea seems to be that the Tutsi were not originally a Bantu people. This makes a great deal of sense, of course, because the Bantus, who came east across Central Africa from the Cameroon area, would not have had cattle, while Nilotic peoples from further north would. The issue of how clearly distinct they are now is a different one, and the two should not be confused. The real state of things would seem to be that there were originally two different ethnic groups, that before the arrival of the colonizers there was a great deal of cultural assimilation and some mingling of the two groups, and that the Belgians then reified the differences between the two in an artificial way. If this is indeed the consensus position, we should clearly lay that out. john k 20:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Matthew Ross Lippman's review of International Criminal Tribunal For Rwanda Reports of Orders, Documents and Judgements 1995-1997 in Human Rights Quarterly 24.2 (2002) does a fairly good job of distilling what I took to be the standard view in my original post. Allow me to quote at length:
This strikes me as the clearest thing I've read on the subject, in that it clarifies the difference between the broadly held idea that the Tutsi were originally a Nilotic tribe and the discredited racist idea that the Tutsi were a "Hamitic" people, superior to the Black African Hutus. There's also an article from African Studies Review by Cyprian Fisiy called "Of Journeys and Border Crossings: Return of Refugees, Identity, and Reconstruction in Rwanda (Vol. 41 No. 1, April 1998) that discusses the issue:
I will probably try to rework the section in this article (and similar sections in other articles) based on the sources linked or excerpted above. john k 23:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The Twa have just been readded to the infobox. Is this related parameter strictly ethnic one, in which case they aren't related, or a cultural-geographic one, in which case they are? Picaroon 01:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
The first section of this article states that Hutus have no physical differences from Tutsis. What? The Belgians seperated the two based exclusively on nose mesurements, head size, and eye characteristics. If there had been no physical differences, the two would never have been seperated. 137.186.222.166
This is part of the problem with race in general. Race is largely based on perceptions of phenotype that are largely untenable or insignificant from a genetic point of view. But perception, not genotype, counts a great deal in terms of how we identify the Self group and various Other groups. There is a sizeable Tutsi population in Philadelphia and there is absolutely no mistaking them for other Bantu-speaking groups. They look different! More in the vein of Ethiopic, but without the characteristic eyes (if ye will excuse the gross generalization). I aim not to pigeonhole anyone, but a few posters inquiring about physical differences might be able to better visualize or imagine part of the racial problem that led to the loss of so much human life.
Sandschie (
talk)
18:28, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Who are the two people pictured? Gillean666 22:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Please see my suggestion for a breakout article at Talk:History of Rwanda#Origins of Tutsi and Hutu breakout article? Thanks, Banyan Tree 06:11, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The hutu/twa are considered the ancient parents of all africans.
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:28, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I've restored (belatedly) the numbers I put in earlier. According to the source, the authors believe that "250,000–500,000 Tutsi and 50,000–500,000 Hutu" died. I know there are other sources out there, and I'm not saying we shouldn't represent those numbers, but please don't give data that isn't backed up by the source cited. Oc t ane [ improve me 20.11.07 1012 (UTC)
Your narrative on post-colonial burundi is not accurate. First in 1972 the genocide was committed against the Hutu population. " http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/bat/burundi/fburundi1972.htm". Conservative estimates are that 100,000 to to 150,000 hutus were killed. However local Burundian estimate that 500,000 hutus were killed. Secondly, there is no reference to the claim that "250,000 to 500,000 tutsis were killed in 1972". The Genocide acknowleged by the United Nations is the 1994, rwandan genocide which is very different from the Burundi genocide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DoctorSibomana ( talk • contribs) 03:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
"the division between the Hutu and the Tutsi (the larger of the other two groups) " -- isn't the Hutu the larger of the two?
Okay first of all I want to announce that all the comments made by bcr were made by me! bcr wasn't a real account. That was just a name I came up with to sign under. This was something I signed under with a different IP address before. However, I was wondering if I could remove all the comments I made on this page. I don't think it's fair to leave my comments if nobody cares about them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.89.14.170 ( talk • contribs) 11:05, March 8, 2009
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Hutu/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
A one-sentence long lede, and three subsections. Needs try and conform with article layout of WP:ETHNIC. -- Fsotrain 09 04:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC) |
Last edited at 04:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 18:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
For editors interested, there's an RfC currently being held: Should sections on genetics be removed from pages on ethnic groups?. As this will almost certainly result in the removal of the "genetics" section from this article, I'd encourage any contributors to voice their opinions there. -- Katangais (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
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How can you "criticize" something as "historical revisionism"? Historical revisionism is the act of looking at something from a different perspective. And this doesn't seem to refer to historical denialism, because the context seems to be a sort of Conflict rationalization of events. If the perspective were caused by denialism, it would deny the events of the genocide, not correctly place blame upon the perpetrators of racial dogma (Germans and Belgians). Also, there is no reference to revisionism in the two sources given. I'll temporarily remove the sentence until someone figures out what's being said here... -- IronMaidenRocks ( talk) 08:30, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
"Historical revisionism is the act of looking at something from a different perspective" -
No it doesn't. It means a particular thing and included in that definition is "Historical negationism". That is distortion of the historical record for ulterior reasons. It might have been more correct for the user to use the latter term, but the former is equally correct.
"not correctly place blame upon the perpetrators of racial dogma (Germans and Belgians"
The blame for the genocide is with those doing the killing. The ethnic groups existed previously and still exist to this day. Germany and Belgium are not responsible for the genocide - Africans are, specifically the Hutu's. Wikipedia is not the place for your opinion, just the facts.
Your contribution shows why it is important to enforce NPOV standards on this page. Tanila001 ( talk) 18:38, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Two points.
1) "An alternate theory is that the Hutu and Tutsi originally belonged to the same Bantu population, but were artificially divided by German and then Belgian colonists so that the Tutsi minority could serve as local overseers for Berlin and Brussels"
One source cited is not a RS. Footnote 8 is a polemic against Europeans that has no supporting evidence, and is clearly wrong on several counts (DNA evidence, linguistic evidence) and is self published. It has no place in this article and I have removed it.
The other (7) does not make the claim it is being used to support. It states - "When the German and the Belgian colonizers came, Rwanda had one nation – one people sharing the same language, the same political system and the same religion." That does not mean "the people" were from the same ethnic group or had the same history, it means they were living in the same space at the same time under the same system. Many different ethnic groups do so in many parts of the world.
I am removing that sentence pending sources. The cattle division is not a source as it can be shown the they were distinct ethnic groups before Europeans arrived. While the Belgian action should be mentioned as affecting future events, it is irrelevant to the discussion on pre-European ethnicity.
In short, this entire article is a mess of NPOV and RS violations. If you were involved in its creation, please engage here and cite reasons for the inclusion of the tagged section, its contents and its sources. Tanila001 ( talk) 15:52, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
Once again removed the un-sourced opinion piece being offered as a plausible theory of origins. The link contains no evidence and is not relevant to a discussion on genetic ancestry. It is a polemic against racism. Nothing wrong with that, but it has no bearing on the discussion.
Tanila001 (
talk)
21:44, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
This article seems to be solely concerned with similarities, relationship and the distinction between Hutu and Tutsi instead of focusing on Hutu people and what is known about them as a people of the whole African Great Lakes region (and not just Rwanda). The article MUST be sanitized off of political narratives and a one-sided version of recent history that has been pushed out by a rival ethnic group-dominated government of Rwanda. This is why a big portion of the article focuses on recent history compared to the ancient history of Hutu people, their kingdoms, kings, tradition, culture, their native language, etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bak0ne ( talk • contribs) 01:01, 25 February 2021 (UTC)